Hamilton College is filming a jazz archive
and we're interviewing some of America's greatest musicians. We have with us today Scott Hamilton, tenor
sax artist. Right. How old were you when you started playing
the tenor sax? SH: I started playing sax in high school. I played other instruments before that but
I was already a professional musician when I started on sax so I came to it kind of late. MW: What else did you play? SH: I played a little piano, I played harmonica
professionally actually, first. But I fooled around with a lot of different
things and got to the sax finally. MW: So did you like the sound of it, like
that was a match? SH: Yeah, well I mean I was looking for something
to get serious on and I thought it was pretty versatile and it seemed to fit the bill. It was where I wanted to go. MW: Uh huh. What else was happening? How old were you at this time? In high school? Seventeen? SH: Sixteen, seventeen, yeah. MW: What else was happening at that time that
may have caught your attention other than music? What were young people's options? SH: Well at the time it wasn't hardly anything
but music for me. I didn't know anything else existed really. I was really one-track. I mean actually there weren't so many options,
at least for me. So the music was a good thing. MW: It was there for you. SH: Yeah. And it was a big help socially, professionally,
every kind of way. MW: Who were you listening to at that time? SH: I was playing a lot of - I was listening
to a lot of rhythm and blues tenor players from the 50s at the time - Red Prysock, Clifford
Scott, Phil Austin, people like that. Rusty Bryant. Kind of unusual names to hear these days,
I don't hear very much about these guys very often. But I've noticed that some of their records
are being reissued now, so maybe they're due for a Renaissance or something. MW: Who did you start working with when you
felt like you were breaking in and getting a name for yourself. SH: That didn't start to happen until I was
about nineteen years old and I met Roy Eldridge. That was one of my first trips to New York. And we got together and arranged to do a job
where my group would back him up in Boston. We lived in New England and worked around
the Boston area. But this was our first chance to back somebody
from out of town that had a name, you know, somebody that was big time. So that was pretty much it. MW: Tell us some things that you maybe have
learned from Roy that you wouldn't have learned in a book. SH: Oh, well, you know, things about band
leading I suppose would be the main thing because this was our first chance to see somebody
in action that was a real band leader that you know, that showed you how to program a
set for excitement, say, how to put tunes together. And you can't really spell it out, but it's
the kind of stuff that rubs off on you very fast if you're paying attention. I think I must have learned more in that one
week than I had learned, you know, maybe in my whole career as it was up 'til that time. With Roy it was just the way, you know the
way that he kept a certain momentum going, a certain party atmosphere on the job that
was really important, really something. It didn't look like he was doing anything,
you know, but he was doing something. MW: And isn't that kind of like a misnomer
- sometimes the more relaxed you are and it doesn't look like you're working, that's when
you're doing your best. SH: Very important. I think Roy was a master of that and a master
of looking like he wasn't leading a band when he was. A very good lesson and a good time to get
it. MW: Did you have some time of formal study? SH: No, I didn't really, I never really spent
any time studying. I was disenchanted with a lot of what was
going on in the music schools at that time. It think it's gotten better since then. But at the time there was a very heavy reliance
on things like transcribing solos and things like that. And very little actual ensemble experience. Additionally, I was anxious to be on the scene
and doing it myself, and I just couldn't stand to have anything between me and the gig. So it made sense to stay away from school
for me, and I think it worked out fine that way. I didn't get any reading skills or anything
like that, but I haven't really used them in my career, so, you know, I think I did
the right thing. MW: You know, some people don't understand
how for instance last night, how six jazz musicians can put together a whole concert
without ever a piece of music, without one piece of sheet music. SH: I guess they don't - you know there's
a lot of people that forget about the fact that for most of us, it's common experience
that allows us to operate the way we do, you know? And no matter who we work with, and no matter
how far removed they are from our usual set of circumstances, the secret is that we look
for the one common experience and that allows us to put together something. If there's enough common experience to make
up a two hour concert then we've got it made. And usually there is, if you look in the right
place. MW: Can you tell us some of the skills and
some of the vocabulary that musicians have to bring to the table to put together an impromptu
concert? I mean you have to know tunes, you have to
know forms. SH: Yeah, I mean naturally repertoire is first,
and if you all know the same tunes by the same names they you're pretty well set. Sometimes you have difficulties there, in
which case it helps if you understand like say that you might actually have some common
material that you don't call by the same name, and maybe you can find your way through with
that kind of thing. But yeah, that's the first step. And usually, usually you find that there is
some common material between you and that the only differences are stylistic differences. Stylistic things can be overcome on the stage
if you keep your ears open and keep your mind open, those kind of things can be gotten around. MW: The other thing is when you put musicians
together, irregardless as to what their favorite style periods were, and they have to perform
together that night, they've got to reach a common denominator. SH: Well, you know, if they're professionals
and if they want it to be a success, yeah, that's the way it's got to go. And that's sometimes where you get, you know,
that's where you separate the professionals from the non-professionals I think. Because I think if you really know what you're
doing you will find a way to make it work. MW: Also isn't there an art to playing with
an ensemble, and instead of concerning yourself with your own virtuosity, which may be quite
awesome, making the ensemble sound good. SH: Yeah, well that's where it's at for me. You know if nobody else seems to be interested
in doing that then I'll take it on. I would just as soon have everybody interested
in the same thing and therefore we all have some time to spend on ourselves too. But if nobody else in the band is interested
in doing that I'll lay the time down, you know, and try to keep things in order. It doesn't bother me. It's just one gig, right? MW: I wanted to ask you also, last night and
the performance I'm speaking about was a performance in the Fillius Events Barn which was a marvelous,
stimulating performance Friday night and there's going to be another one this coming Saturday. What I wanted to ask you about is I noticed
there were sections where the three front line players would play something in unison,
and then you just split into three part harmony. How did you know how to find your part? I mean there was nothing written, was it rehearsed
or did you just know - I'm going to take the fifth, you take the seventh-
SH: I don't know for sure. I was actually hoping that - in this case
Kenny Davern, the clarinetist, and Warren Vache was playing cornet - I was hoping that
they would have routines because I'm sort of filling in for where in this group it's
usually a trombone player, and I'm not quite sure all the time when they're going to go
into one of those things and when they're not. But when they do, and when they jump on it,
I can usually get the third note pretty fast. I wait, basically, for Kenny to start playing
harmony to Warren, and then try to catch whether he's playing the third or the fifth. And then I try to jump on it as quickly as
possible so that nobody notices the hole, because there's usually been two notes gone
already before that happens. We did okay last night I thought. We got on it pretty quick. MW: I thought you did great. SH: Tonight should be a little bit faster,
hopefully. Because I'm more used to them. MW: And then you have the type of ears, this
is something that people don't realize that jazz musicians have to have incredible knowledge
of what, in the schools we call ear training or we call solfeggio or whatever you call
it. SH: Exactly. MW: But once you get the right starting note,
and once you know the melody, you are able to play the perfect contour of the line in
harmony to the melody, knowing where all the intervals would have to be both diatonically
and chromatically. SH: Hopefully, yeah. I mean it doesn't always work out, but that's
where our skill is supposed to lie, you know. Sometimes it works out and it's nice and it's
beautiful when it happens. MW: The spontaneity of it I think is the most
exciting. SH: Well that's what gives you, I don't know
it's a great satisfaction in that when it works, when you can make something like that
happen spontaneously. It makes you feel like you're doing what you're
supposed to be doing. It's great. MW: Talk to us a little bit about your specific
sound on the tenor sax. Because I was listening to you last night
and the sound is kind of soft and sweet but it's still aggressive. SH: Well I felt like I wasn't really getting
my sound last night as much as I would like to have been. But that happens sometimes, you know and you've
got to live with that too. I was having trouble projecting. But I would say yeah, if I have a sound, what
I'm always trying to get is something that's round and it has some finesse to it, but you
know I believe in having an edge and I like to be aggressive as well. I mean you need those things to express yourself
and I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do without some kind of edge on it. And last night I was a little upset because
I couldn't get that edge. I don't know what was wrong with me but I
tend to know after years of experience, that if I'm not getting something the problem usually
lies in myself, and that's what it is. So maybe tonight. MW: Talk to some people here that we're filming
on tape if there are students here that play the sax, any of the saxes, tell us some things
that could effect the sound, like embouchure, reeds, breathing -
SH: Yeah, all of those things. The acoustics of the room can be extremely
important in day to day playing. Whether if you're using a sound system, whether
or not the sound system is a good one or not often is very important to what you get back. But I think last night I had the combination
of having not played for about a week, which is probably the most important thing. That, combined with the acoustics. The acoustics were quite good in there so
I can't say that was a problem. I couldn't find a reed that was blowing. It wouldn't respond. It wouldn't respond at all. And I was working without a sound system,
which I'm not used to. So that would take me a couple of days to
get accustomed to. But the main thing being that I haven't played
since last weekend and I hadn't, you know, exercised myself this week, you know I should
have done it. It usually pays off. And you pay for your mistakes when you don't
do it. MW: What would be your overall favorite setting
to perform in? The size of the ensemble and the type of music? SH: I like a quartet. That's my thing for the last ten years anyway
that's been. I enjoy working occasionally with other horn
players, you know, and I would hate to give that up permanently. But if it was a choice between working with
other horn players and not working with them, I would say not. I enjoy the freedom of not having to think
about another horn and being the only guy with a good rhythm section. Just give me that. Give me three rhythm and I'm very very happy. MW: One on a part. SH: Yeah. MW: Could you tell us, in terms of just give
us a little chronology of who you think the main tenor sax artists are that young people
should listen to, starting with someone and including yourself, and then going on to maybe
a new young voice that you think's on the scene now. SH: That's difficult. I listen to so many sax players. I mean I listen to such a broad range. I would certainly recommend to anybody that
was listening and that hadn't heard the old masters I would recommend checking them out
because there's so much to be gained from them, meaning Coleman Hawkins and Ben Webster,
Don Byas, Lester Young. And there's a whole layer of lesser known
people from that period that have so much to offer. And then there's the guys that followed that
generation, you know, you've got guys like Gene Ammons and Eddie Davis and Ike Quebec
and Lucky Thompson. It's an endless list, you know I can just
keep nailing people off. As far as young people now on the scene I
haven't heard that many you know that, I haven't heard that many young players. I guess you know Josh Redman is about the
only one I've heard in recent years that even made an impression on me. I thought he was damn good. I mean he's a real tenor player. I liked him. I'd like to hear more of him. But that was just, I've seen him twice I think
and I haven't even heard his records. I was just impressed in passing by what I
saw. I haven't heard this guy James Carter yet. He's supposed to be good. See I - traveling around the way I do you
don't get to hear many people unless we get in festivals. If I get on festivals I get to hear a lot
of new people. But it's been a good five years since I've
done that summer festival circuit and I'm out of touch. So it's sort of me and my old records. I'm up to date on those. But it's embarrassing in a way because I should
know more about what's going on. I should have a better knowledge. It would be to my advantage. MW: I wanted to ask a couple other questions. Where do you see jazz going? Where can it go? And is it healthy? And if not, what can it do to regain itself? SH: I think it's pretty healthy right now
compared to - when I was coming up and getting into it was to me the unhealthy years of jazz
which were the late 60s and early 70s, when it really almost, when it was almost washed
up. I mean, okay, there was some jazz happening,
you know, and there's never been a time when there weren't - when somebody wasn't playing,
you know. But it was down to a trickle. And I think right now, the last fifteen years
it's seen a tremendous amount of, well you know you don't even hear the things you used
to hear when I was - when I first came out all the press would talk about when they spoke
about me was how unusual it was for someone in their twenties to be playing jazz music
of a traditional nature. Because young people were playing, if they
were turning to jazz they were playing fusion pretty much and that's about it. Nowadays, you don't find that to be unusual
at all. I mean there is a tremendous sort of sense
of history involved with all of the young players that are coming up, whether they're
playing out of - you know sort of studying Art Blakey's groups from the early 60s or
whether they're studying Miles' groups from the early 60s, they're still sort of traditionally-minded
in the sense that they make that part of their program. I think they listen to Bird and people like
that. I think it's just sort of normal, part of
the way things ought to go. And I think you know it's a more sensible
world these days than it was in the early 70s. MW: A kind of re-discovering of the fact that
like from Parker to Miles, there was a tremendous amount of really fine music. SH: Yeah. MW: I think a lot, some young people are realizing
they don't have to re-invent the wheel. SH: Yeah. That's absolutely true. Well you know the critics may have eased up
on them too and that may have helped. Maybe they told them that they can just maybe
try to find themselves and maybe that would be enough, which I think is true. MW: Tell us about some of the recordings and
things you've made. SH: Well I've had a good opportunity to make
a lot of recordings over the - I started, when did I start, '77. And I've had quite a few opportunities in
the studio. But where to begin? I've had the opportunity to play with a lot
of the people that I admired when I was growing up and that was very nice. I'm glad I got the chance to do it. Most importantly I guess, in the end, I've
been allowed in say the last ten years to have some control over the records that I
made under my own name and been lent to, more or less. I don't get producer's credits, but better
still they allow me to produce the records and that's what really matters. I mean I do like that, I like recording. I enjoy it. MW: I wanted to ask you a last question here. If you have a word to leave with students
that you know will see this tape, and you wanted to give them an encouragement or some
insight wisdom as to pursuing a career or even just studying this music from a music
appreciation standpoint, could you expound on that for a minute? Or how to get inside this art form and appreciate
it? SH: I would only know how to do it if they
intend to be musicians. Because I wouldn't have advice for somebody
that wants to be involved with the music but maybe be involved peripherally or something
like that. That would be up to them how they would get
into it. But as musicians, I've always had the same
advice, which is you know the formal education is fine. There is probably a lot of things that they
can get from that that I didn't consider important to me that could help them a lot. But at the same time I think they've got to
supplement it with something that the schools can't give you which is ensemble experience. And I don't think that there's enough of that
available. They've got to go on to find that themselves,
which is just a certain amount of hours to be spent on a bandstand with a real rhythm
section. It doesn't have to be a good rhythm section,
it just has to be, they have to really be playing, not a record or something. The other thing is I think they have to have
experience in front of an audience. And that is something I think the schools,
they don't concentrate on that because it's not something that lends itself to the curriculum
very well. But it's still something they're going to
have to face when they get out, one way or the other they're going to have to deal with
an audience and now is as good a time as any to start doing it. So I think those two things - if they just
would supplement their education with as much of that as possible, they'd find they'd have
a much easier time when they get out there. MW: So music is communication. SH: I think so yeah, absolutely, and trying
to find a way to communicate with, in jazz, in other words without words, with a piece
of steel. That's a tricky business. And there's lots of things to pick up along
the way. MW: Has anything particularly funny or bizarre
happened to you on the bandstand working with jazz musicians? SH: I was afraid you were going to ask me
that. That's always a very tough question because
yes, things happen all the time, I mean it's an interesting world. But whenever anybody asks me that, I freeze,
and I can't remember anything funny at all, ever, that's ever happened to me. And that's happening right now. I'll have to come back, I mean I'll have to
call you on the telephone and tell you. [inaudible]
SH: Oh well that's a good story but I don't think it was very true. I knew all those guys quite well when I came
out on stage. Milt didn't know that, but the story was that
when I was 21 or 22 years old I was invited to a jazz festival in the Rocky Mountains
in which I got to play with all my childhood idols. And it's true, I did. And it was very exciting. But I knew all of them quite well. I'd been in New York for a year by then, and
we had all had quite a good time on the airplane on the way over, and they knew my playing
fairly well by then. I'd even recorded with a couple of them. So it was good for the audience. They think in terms of the drama of first
nights and things like that. Well we didn't disappoint them. They made it look like they'd never heard
me before too, probably, and maybe that added to the show. It was a good time though, very nice. Very pleasant memory. MW: So they played it up for you? SH: They may have done me a favor too. They were nice guys - they are nice guys,
most of them are still around. MW: Well that's great. Tell us, talk a little about you said you
had not necessarily played with but you had heard the Basie band. SH: I've been a sort of, I mean that's very
special to me. If I were to have to give up all music except
for one band, I would have to say give me Count Basie and I could live with that. I think that would do it. Because for me it represents everything that
I consider important in music. And I've always aligned myself with members
of Basie band's past, and tried to become friendly with the guys. So I've spent a lot of time hanging out with
them, especially the guys from the original Basie band, you know the ones I've known,
Buck Clayton was a good friend, and Buddy Tate, Sweets Edison, Jo Jones was a good friend. I never did get to know Basie, but he heard
me play a few times and it was a real thrill, a real thrill. I've spent some time playing with the guys
that were in the band in the 50s too, I was good friends with Joe Newman and I played
with Frank Wess a bit, and with Frank Foster as well. Eric Dixon was a favorite of mine. There were a lot of good guys in that band
too. I don't know, nothing's coming to mind at
the moment but as I said over the years it's been very important music to me. MW: The other thing I was going to ask you
about the big bands is now, you know, with the exception of the Basie band and what you're
still contending about Frank Foster, and I think the Woody Herman band and a couple of
others, you almost have to go to the colleges to find big bands now. SH: Yeah. I think I saw the end of the big bands in
the 70s and I didn't even know it was happening because it didn't seem, it just didn't seem
like it was going to happen that fast but it sure did. I guess there are some good rehearsal bands
around and that's about the size of it these days. You don't have working big bands anymore,
traveling, working big bands, with the exception of one or two. Yeah, that's a real loss. MW: Is there something that American society
can do to get more live music of an artistic nature back on its experiential pallet? SH: Well, I would think that they could do
the same thing as is done in Europe, which is try to create more gigs. In other words, maybe if there is money for
the arts available, to try to spread it around to sort of to entrepreneurs that are going
to put on a lot of concerts and you know, to try to spread them to smaller and smaller
places. It seems in Europe that that money gets spread
out to - the thing that keeps things interesting over there is that the money gets spread out
to small venues, little towns and villages that, you know where the guy's got a bar basically,
where he can put on whoever's coming through town on stage and fit maybe 150, 250 people
tops in the room. And maybe he gets some help from the government
and that makes a difference whether he can put somebody on or not. And I suppose we could use a little more of
that here. The only difference between here and Europe
is the audience is pretty much the same as far as I can see. The difference is there's more places to play
over there. And that may be just the economic set up,
you know, the way things are distributed. I would like to see more venues in the United
States for jazz. I think that's all we need. The people are interested and I think they'd
turn out. It is a little hard to drag them out of their
house, but I think you can get them interested. MW: Well thank you. This has been informative, and we really look
forward to your concert again tonight. I really enjoyed the one last night - the
spontaneity and the creativity on stage, was just fabulous. SH: Thanks a million, I appreciate it. MW: Alrighty. Thank you much. (c) Fillius Jazz Archive -7-
