SMOKO 31 - Brent Simpson

get the volume [ __ ] peanut we're good to go well it's been a long time coming we finally were able to do this and on the i'm actually super stoked to be honest with you we got it done yeah timing's everything and i think that things happen for a reason when they're meant to happen so well so tell us the new escapade you might as well dive straight into it the new escapade yeah the clinque plain and simple stories of redemption so what we're aiming for is to deliver a very impacting moving um journey through someone's life uh generally it's either somebody of a high profile or fire uh their criminality athleticism um it could be just joan smith walking down the road that you know has really got a very impacting sort of start to their life that comes through fights through adversity tough times traumas finds light and comes out and is um leading you know their their world from from in front obviously you know we're in a bright light the guests that we've got on all have a story of redemption that is very inspiring that hopefully we can give to other people to be inspired by and find a little self belief in themselves that no matter how hard how [ __ ] up [ __ ] gets that you can come through and if you put your mind to it and you know you believe in yourself and give yourself half a chance to breathe yeah there's there's something great out there for everyone because the crazy [ __ ] is i guess obviously you've got a well-documented we can go into it sure upbringing you know absolutely probably early life would you call it um young life and then you got kids now or young adults now i do literally we're not like that are literally in what you're doing what you were doing so they're currently going through what you were doing not your kids i mean i was gonna say it no no no no no no i've tried not to let my kids get out there i mean like if you think there's lots of kids and youths out there at the moment that currently it's full on deep into what you were doing yeah yeah and i think that um people people have this perception now that it's cool i was only with some mates in sydney the other week we were chatting about this this generation and and the fact of how for example um you know down there at the moment people are getting shot and knocked left right and center now this is just talk of the town you know there's very little money getting thrown around for someone to run around and pull a gun and they're all young blokes that are doing it getting caught not giving two [ __ ] it's cool to get caught cool to be looking at five to ten years it's a it's a it's a little metal is it kudos is it it's happening down there so if you're so if you've seen to get in that industry because i'm talking from i'm big time on the outside yeah yeah like i don't know nothing about that industry i think that's why a lot of shows like your one and like the life you lead are so appealing to people is because they can't fathom it they can't sit there and go the thing is everybody's knows somebody that's done something but have you done it have you lived it or are you just talking about barry's trip down to the [ __ ] local drug dealer down the road and yeah you know he he didn't like what he got so he punched him in the head and he took his 20 stick off him and that's when he ran away what a [ __ ] champion so you don't even have that you know what i mean at least they're not telling me that um the reality of it is is um it's not a life to be glorified by any means and i want to make that very very clear something that we truly emphasize through the clink um the stories are hardcore stories that are embedded in history especially with the um the people that are coming on you know you're talking about uh murderers bank robbers underworld figures people that have truly been there done that and i think we worked it out the other there's like 170 years jail between us all um that you know within eight series and i think six of those series um are jail related the others at the moment um uh uh professionals or athletes that have had a really tough journey that have um you know got a story of redemption because they're out there aren't they like that's just so many people are in there but what people don't realize is they see the they see the final product a lot of times and that's like anything they see the final product and think that it just came easy well it's a piece of toast you know you put your butter on there you make it nice on the edges and then you know some people like their vegemite to the edge not too much not too little yeah this is raw this is real and you don't get any more factual than directly from the source i'm a big believer in you know everyone like i said can tell a story but how much of that story is true logistics is fabricated you know what i mean and i'm going to tell you a little bit more because i want you to get a wow factor out as opposed to johnny down the road who i just told a little bit too and he went oh wow yeah you know i never compare no no no so we shouldn't let the truth get in the way of a good story mate it's hard to hold back the truth on these ones because you know the beauty about it is with the clink it's all truth nobody can pull apart any of it it's all factual evidential stories that you know they have occurred it is what it is now people can take from it what they want the whole point of it once again is not to glorify myself or any of these other guests or anybody that's coming on with some sort of past it's about showing people that these people have had a very very tough past that they were written off all society gave them a zero minus [ __ ] 50. you know what i mean they just were never ever gonna be anything in their life and and here they are um one bloke's helped over 7 000 people through sexual abuse cases that um you know have had no voice uh started an organization called voice of a survivor you've got a uh a journalist a award-winning journalist you know who was one of australia's most notorious escapees bank robbers and the most violent humans of his era you've got another vote that um you know literally flew a chopper out of a a um secure uh prison you know rob banks back right through the late 60s into the 70s mate he stole the first decimal point dollar out of a bank teller via a gun you know these are people that have these stories i mean another like wayne cleveland um you know big wave surfer that literally is world come undone and this guy used to walk through airports with kilos of coke strapped to him and he as he says i'd go and punch a few cones in the car park grab my in and out burger walk through la with a big smile and be stoned out of my head so relaxed and strapped with two kilos of coke every surf trip you know to then sending over like planes you know that have got coke just loaded through them so these are undeniable and that's back in the day when the criminal was the criminal in the sense that you had to just have a set of balls you couldn't do it from behind a computer there's a computer there's computer criminals now they're just the smart because you know so much more you look at when i when i think of a criminal back then like a drug smuggler that's the bloke who puts his balls on the line and straps it to himself like that 100 but nowadays it's more like send it out figure out a way there's no actual it's almost like you want to be inconspicuous well inconspicuous when you talk about that yesterday there's a um 100 kilo i think it was boat off newcastle or 100 million dollars worth of coke um in a [ __ ] fishing boat like just floating around alcohol off our shores 30 k's off newcastle yeah poor blokes are come down the prices are going to go through the roof now it's all coming real quick and a bit of inflation manipulation far out i'd hate to be in the game these days like but i mean that's that's the thing you know like and to to get what you're trying to get in the end result it's i just can't see the value in it like i can't see the jail time in it anymore i couldn't you know the the logistical effort you'd have to go through i mean i did six years for importation so i totally get it i understand logistics i understand what it takes to get from a to b and how the process works man it's one of the most stressful [ __ ] things you'll ever do oh yeah and then you know when you get that landing and you go okay we're on it's a relief and you think you're on top of the world living like a king for however long it lasts and then it's back to that original you know anxiety stress no one can talk to you you just [ __ ] that it's almost like training for a fight isn't it well it is and you know you've got this thing at the end you know the baby at the end of the labor pains and you're like that's right if you've got to put up with us put up with us that anxiety you know of it coming up coming up or a big event i always love the anxiety in a lead up to a fight you know for me well compared to what you did have anxiety [Laughter] and that's that to me is is the reality of it i'm okay getting punched in the head i wouldn't be okay but looking at ten years today i just it made it it's not from you know saying oh that it's a weakness and if you're putting that situation then fair enough you're going to do it but i'm choosing not to be in that situation to ever have to confront that situation again years ago it didn't matter yeah you know i had no fear of it because well i guess i really didn't have a sense of value for myself you know i have a purpose i'm a father of four my older son successfully just um pushed a four-year uni degree for sound engineering into two he's excelling you know high distinctions and absolutely kicking ass my youngest my middle son you know great muay thai fighter surfer and rugby league player my youngest son thinks he's 20 and and can do everything else yeah yeah and my daughter who's vision impaired i'm 13 and she's got the voice of an angel and she's at school in accredited classes due to her musical ability so put the other side of it into it it doesn't even come close away and up to the value of joy you know the the the experiences of being there and seeing your your children excel and you're your father why the [ __ ] does a kid want to go visit their parents every weekend and think is this how my life's going to be like it's not fair to them so when you were when you got when you got your sentence your last one because i know you're in and out as a young fellow yep but your last main one obviously one that you decided this was yes how old were your kids at that stage so my oldest son well he was four ten ten ten no lie eleven my daughter was three and my partner my wife was pregnant she was four months pregnant with my second son [ __ ] so she had your son when you were in prison yeah so the first four years of his life basically i wasn't i wasn't there how did that go i'm hard hard especially now when he says you know we're talking birthdays and stuff and as a parent you know it always comes out i remember when you're a baby you know and you're born you come into the world i got i can't share that with him you know i i have to live with that through my choices but he then has that burden of but dad you know you weren't there for me it does affect him i see it in his eyes when the times come up and the conversations are spoken of um but you can't hide it i can't hide it and there's one thing with my children is they've always known we obviously kept it at a minimal until they were old enough but you know when your kids are standing at the front of their primary school and they're watching their dad's cycle past and waving goodbye to right across australia they're going to know what you're doing it for you know so at that stage they started to realize about what mental health was um how dad was and living with bipolar and how i was up and down sometimes or a lot of times but it all started to sort of fit into a puzzle and then as they've gotten older my older son's 21 daughter's 13 and 10 and then six they've seen documentaries they use the internet now i can't hide from any of it you know like there's interviews there this channel there's media snippets of you know drug cases that i was you know involved with and it's there so for me for me and for my wife the best thing we can do is be honest i don't want any curiosity or any questions of why did i lie why didn't i tell them but my wrongs i believe are their rights because there's very little curiosity my boys ask about you know gangs and because they say a lot and there's something about this shay these young street kids today all asha means is yes just to get it clear it was a language that we started when we're jumping bank counters at 14 and 15 based off pig latin that no one could understand except us that we're doing the crimes yeah so it was our lango on the streets now all of a sudden the word yes shay is you're an escher you're a yes boy or a yes girl i mean [ __ ] i i don't get it anyway my kids my kids are hearing they're going oh dad is you know is it like were you like an issue and i'm like no no no and we're not going to have this conversation you know you what it was was dad committed crimes yeah dad went to jail dad was involved with gangs dad went to jail did they visit you my oldest son um didn't and i had many many many years without him in my life because um and you know okay now but i wasn't okay at the time his mum just took the opportunity and felt right this is the time to cut the old boy out of his life i couldn't do [ __ ] i mean i had phones smuggled in i used to [ __ ] sit there and you know because obviously you get locked in at three o'clock you know they're at school i don't know that obviously obviously so for those out there that aren't familiar with the lucky obvious [Laughter] when you're up on the mountain in auckland the thing is you your time just didn't fit into what opportunities you had to contact you know when your child's going to primary school and stuff like so anyway i literally had to get people to try and track down numbers addresses i managed to do all that and then you know i had to smuggle in a mobile phone um and that was my only way trying to contact my son um i think it might have been twice in in just over four years that we actually had spoken and then when i got out um i spent you know i've been home five years now but um i try to really make every effort um but he was upset you know he was angry he was i can understand he was pissed off that you left me so me being home and all of a sudden wanting to repent and give him my story of redemption and go and say look dad loves you he didn't [ __ ] know about it you know it was just like no it's not happening which i love him for today because we're very close again now um i've got to hold him and hug him and tell him i love him on the 18th of july this year my birthday was the first time in uh four years again so there's been big gaps and we've been talking since march and it was the most powerful moment of my life really um as a man as a father i guess he's growing up a bit too you know he's 21 he can sort of see you know he probably listens to think i i mean i'm speaking from here but you know he probably sees things and thinks you know people without a father well i've got one he's [ __ ] up but how how long am i gonna you know just i think as the older you get the more you start to look at forgiveness a little bit differently that word so that's something that him and i have both touched on is is that word forgiveness and you know like even me i've had to grow up and let go of a lot of things i i i can't forgive a lot of the things that happen to me like being sexually abused and raped as a child i can't forgive for that but i can move forward from it and accept it and move on my son and i's relationship is a little bit different he was never abused as a child he never went through any of that you know the worst thing he did was probably see me and his mum speak terrible to each other and throw things around the house so not acceptable it's domestic violence full stop but i'm not trying to justify or compare but if you were to say from mine and his point of view completely different yeah um but rightfully so you know the things he doesn't forget either that he needed to i guess forgive or move forward and his words were i feel so much better dad that we've been able to have our conversations because i'm talking to a man you know i'm not talking to my son as a young son hey son i'm talking sure mate i'm dad you're braden and um and i'm here to listen i guess when obviously when you lost contact again when he was younger you're talking about a teenager you know you remember when you were that age who you'd listen to you probably held grudges a lot longer well i was 12 13 i was locked up i was doing two years by the time i was 16. [ __ ] was real you know living on the streets i listened to [ __ ] no one and did whatever the [ __ ] i wanted i didn't have parents i didn't have family so so if you had a glimmer of the way you get it my scariest thing for me was thinking that because i hadn't spoken my mother from from her choices i don't hold any any uh guilt or anything there's no no skin off my nose but been over 20 years but in that time when she left me as a child as i grew up and through teenagers the simplest way for me to move forward was to say i know my mum died of cancer end of story yeah oh [ __ ] sorry that's it's cool yeah i'm cool with it yeah and that was it you know i didn't have to sit back and say what happened you know why she left why she took my three siblings and left me you know things like that and so it became a way of life that's a coping mechanism it was a good way of dealing with it and to this day nothing's changed you know she's alive but yeah it is what it is yeah um with braden on the other hand um i always feared that he had that in him because he's my jeans to just cut me off and put that barrier up so i know that's not my dad because he's mum and i've only had a partner each you know in the 18 years we've been separated 17 years so you know he hasn't had to bounce back and forth see his mum with different men or his father have different women it's never been like that it was just instantly [ __ ] you dad this is your doing when i'm ready you'll hear from me sort of thing and that's how it is now but i wouldn't have said that you know six months ago before we'd had the conversations i guess the difference between also your mother um and i don't know what her circumstances are but you're actively trying to mend the bridge too so you've got a feeling of love from the other side as well so it's not like you're just sitting in the distance and oh when he's ready you'll come to me it's like you're actively trying to oh 100 for sure so there's there's want there so it's like i i think for me john i did that my with my own parents my father and i are very very close but we took you know the last probably 12 to 15 years of rebuilding our relationship i'm 44. you know he's 70 he's he's um sadly an ill man um so it was something that i consciously felt that needed to be dealt with um and you know it was tough but today i can honestly you know look and say that if anything was to happen to my dad and it just shattered me and i love him dearly and and we have really built a beautiful friendship um on the other side you talk about you know your mum and your father well my mother doesn't exist in my life and that's as simple as that and i don't you know you get to a point where too much is gone yeah yeah i'm a [ __ ] man with four children you know what i mean um i've grown up without the loving mother i've grown up without all the compassion and sharing and caring and it's [ __ ] gone mate whatever i've got my own children to worry about and my heart belongs to them and my wife do you know the i feel sometimes as well when people are mistreated like you were obviously um and not mistreated the wrong word but you can use you know people use their parents for inspiration and so your kid your younger kids will be like well you know my dad right across australia did all the things we can dive into later there's a lot of inspiration too as well but when they do bad things like you displayed we'll consider it a bad thing you know again going to jail is a bad thing isn't it absolutely a child totally they can use that as inspiration as well of how not to be so they choose whether they and same with your mother obviously leaving you use that for inspiration yeah not to be and so i think if people have you know things in their life that they can use for either ammunition or you know demolition they can they can ruin it and absolutely you you choose how you want to harness that and so that i think that takes a lot of mental strength to harness it for a good thing i think jono one thing you've got to realize too is it's taken me 35 years yeah 35 years of my 44 years to actually sit down and smile and feel good and go love me i'm okay with me and i feel good doing good i feel good helping others i feel good i don't have any baggage anymore i've got nothing you know i've given it all back to the rightful owners yeah um if i can put it that way and you know like i said in the beginning my rights are so my wrongs are my children's rights that's that's my belief that's my way of looking at things by not hiding anything from them they know the realities it's a little bit of shock treatment but i can guarantee you um you know it'll hit home knowing that you've actually gone well hang on a sec you can't fool me and no it's not that way because i've been there and dad knows you know what i mean and that's like oh [ __ ] you know like my six-year-old at the moment tries to he's the one that worries me he's he's just my shadow and it scares the [ __ ] out of me because he's just a staunch six-year-old little fella that just just wants to have it all you know he he can't swim in the ocean but he paddles out on a surfboard and he'll paddle around you get dunked and he'll pop up and dog paddle back to his wall he couldn't swim to save his life if the currents were strong it'd be terrible but he refuses to sit on the beach and watch his brother and i out there he wants in football you know he won't sit on the sideline got in trouble i had one of the footy matches um two weeks ago and he thought the game was over so he's got his little uniform on crum and eagles uniform and they just stopped playing he's running out of the field you know like one of him he's like oh [ __ ] yeah he's into it he is and i love that i love that driving him but out of my four children he's the one that i'm gonna have to really i think just try and mold he's got the too much curiosity of um wanting to be bad you can see and that's crazy you can see that from where you started sitting and you can see how parents wouldn't identify that oh absolutely and they can't like you look at a different way you can almost grab that and go okay now we could head there yes we're gonna just i'm just gonna slowly turn your little boat and your boat's gonna set off sail in a different direction and the end result is gonna be far far different like that's the most beautiful way i've heard it put yeah because that is the reality right there and if soda and i don't um you know and we've talked about obviously we speak we're a family that communicates and i think that's the key subject is is talk you know i work away so this is the other side of it i then get that bit of a guilt feeling my young fella finds it harder than my other children i mean obviously my adult son he's cool but my my two middle eas they're very resilient obviously having you know lived with dad being away in the beginning and that but he doesn't know that he everything's just dad's hip you know he's just the absolute i love him i love him i love all my kids but i love this little teddy bear because he's just rugged and rough but i want him to be molded into you know a really smart well-mannered young man with plenty of driving inspiration but try not to want to be the bad guy you know a little piece of dynamite like that oh put on the wrong hands it scares me and i think the parents that you see these soft parents that just let their kids get away with [ __ ] everything it does my head oh here have a laptop have a [ __ ] and even at home i'm like get the [ __ ] off the computers the sun is shining guys get on your bikes get on your skateboard pick up the ball kick the footy jump on the trampoline let's go surfing whatever get the [ __ ] out yeah yeah you know you think there's parents you let them have whatever do whatever they want that kid's going to walk all over the parents yeah all right look i'm not here to sort of i mean look i i started as anybody will say i'm i was a bad parent you know like what parent turn around commits the crimes that i did goes to jail and you know like i'll cop that i was a [ __ ] parent i wasn't a present father well yeah i mean that's tough that's a tough description of it because i it's not a good thing for a parent to do but i don't necessarily think it makes you a bad parent what am i trying to say so you your decision caused obviously angst amongst your family caused you to be away so i guess that doesn't make you that's a bad thing for a parent to do but that doesn't make your intentions as a father my intentions always clear and it was always right or wrong i mean i i've got no trade i must the streets were my trade you know the gang life the the what i've been a jar for you know the the the moving of drugs importing drugs robbing banks that was my life so when i had children it was like i'm going to give them the world yeah i'm going to be they're going to have everything they want we're going to we're going to live a sick life because i never had any of that i come from the streets you know i literally had to fight to keep my shoes on my feet so um for me i never wanted them so my intentions and i'm not trying to justify my actions but my tensions were were valid as a family man my actions weren't yeah if that makes sense and i think that ownership of that is very very important i i there's no skeletons in my closet i'm not ashamed to to stand up and say i [ __ ] up yeah but i think gang gang people feel like okay that's the wrong way of terminalizing people that commit crimes i feel like they think i feel like they think i'm a good person because my intentions are good my intentions are to provide for my family my intentions are anyway they know how my intentions are to provide for my family my intentions are to get money my intentions are to create a good life but someone suffers absolutely you see where you're headed you see what i'm not saying you what i'm trying to say is you as a criminal or the person who's committing the crime sees that as you know they see their intention their intention is to have everything but someone suffers and that's obviously what when going to jail and like you're on the flip side of when you've come out now you're looking more like well i don't want people to suffer i want to help people oh look i i don't and and the reality of it is i've seen it at its worst like i i'm not trying to sit here and pump up my tires i've seen it for my age i've looked death in the eyes i've seen people dropping my arms from heroin overdoses as a kid i've seen horrific stuff you know and they're things that could have could have been different had choices being made better um so then you take that into account well how do you get to educate people before they make that choice is give them valid options to then think before they make that choice as opposed to just for me it was just like i didn't give a [ __ ] bang i'm on instant i mean i live with type 2 bipolar so that hasn't helped but everything i do is just bang you know all right i'm going to start a podcast i'm going to ride across australia i'm going to jump that bank out i know i'm going to have a big fat rack in front of me and get [ __ ] right off me chops like i'm there's no in between for me there's no and that's not good you know we really need the right hands it's not good it's not it's great to have that drive because you get [ __ ] done yeah yeah but uncontrolled have you always been like that i have always been like that but um medically and psychologically documented yeah by forensic doctors um that's the way i've i've often wondered about mental health yeah um do you think that so so i don't know if you're on the nature verse nurture sort of thing like if you're like if you've got you've got type 2 bipolar i do did that start noticeably for you what age did that start at so my traumas uh are massive for my mental health um you know that's sort of what that's the energy i'm going down going through physically abused sexually abused and raped um you know from the ages of eight right through to um 11. and you know then obviously um growing up without compassion um in a very violent upbringing a lot of drug and alcohol abuse as i took to the streets nothing nothing there was to complement a better mental health yeah everything there was destined to be where it is today yeah had i not educated myself many years ago i like i only take i'll be straight up i take cbd oil i live on it it's something that you know i i swear by and i don't care it i'll take it till the cows come home every day i don't take pharmaceuticals anymore um and if i'm stressed i'd rather have a little bit of [ __ ] tinter oil and get really stoned and chill out yeah because why it allows me to breathe it's natural it's organic i'm not filling my body with toxins that are actually going to destroy my mental health i did all that i was that that guinea pig that they used to go because it was only in the last 20 years that they've identified what bipolar is you're either manic depressive suicidal add adhd but now we've come out with you know post-traumatic disorder uh anxiety is identified as an individual um mental health now sorry mental illness there's so much education and value to what it is all about today it's very hard not to identify what it is that you're living with if you do have these issues for me type 2 bipolar has been a massive education because i was a part of that generation where no one knew what it was it was all identified here take a pill you'll be right you're just depressed you're suicidal yeah okay we'll talk to someone that's your life so wrong yeah so wrong when i come out of jail the one thing that i wanted to do was never to have to take a pharmaceutical tablet again to better my day yeah so you know educated in prison yeah it had to be yeah it had to be okay had to be because i was just too erratic i couldn't settle i i i if you struck me as a bloke they can't sit still i couldn't you know what i mean that's a strange dynamic and i don't have worms and you know like it's all i'm 138 kilos most blokes would be happy to sit on their ass so i can't that's a weird place to put someone who can't sit still and do a prison in there try doing 12 months segre and knowing that you're lucky if you get out into a little yard where you've got 14 paces one side and four paces the other you did 12 months of that absolutely absolutely was that but was that mandatory or was that because no way two things um i was gang affiliated yep so into and the other side it was i didn't give a [ __ ] so i would rebel people don't like that in jail it upsets upsets the apple cart so when a bloke comes into the system or the wing and he's got a bad attitude things things are happening do you understand things are happening there's there's a process the screws the the inmates that have been there for a long time they don't like uneasy you know some bloke coming in there loud and boisterous carrying on or telling the screws go [ __ ] yourself or i'm not doing this who are you ain't good yeah and it's not that you ain't good is it upsets the apple cart of routine they don't want trauma they don't want stress in the wings there's enough of that there under the carpet if you know what i mean so you know when i come in and i start pushing and shoving screws and attacking and verbally abusing and refusing to do things they're not going to tolerate me in the wing the inmates aren't going to be happy with me and the wing in the end whether they know me or not because it's [ __ ] up everything that's going on in there because it brings too much attention and heat so the only way they're going to deal with you sweet we'll lock you down yeah that's it you know what i mean they'll move your jail to jail they'll just keep you locked down so what do you do what do you do with your time [ __ ] read just reading try and read try and educate um you don't see anyone and you're lucky if you get a phone call and especially when they go on strike or they're short and the other parts of the jail they strip the screws from that area so you may see someone come in to throw your meal in that's it and you just don't know when you'll exactly okay let me rephrase that they're supposed to have a time where you get a phone call in the day you're locked in the cell you get out you know for two or three hours and when i say out you've got yourself then you've got a little cage off the back you sell that you go into like an animal and then you come in they lock that door and you're backing yourself you know you don't physically see anyone except you've got a little mirror that comes out the side and same as the movies you're looking down and talking to cell mates or we run lines we strip sheets and we run lines we put like water bottles on the element you flick it up the other end and you'll you know someone will be cooking up five six cells up that's if you all get on you know like you'll take turns and having a cook up and yep you try and make it as communal as you can because you're all in there together and yeah there's some [ __ ] [ __ ] that come in there and there's some [ __ ] people that you'd love to get a hold of you just don't acknowledge them in there i mean they cop enough [ __ ] as it is like sucko yeah you know but when it comes down to just looking after each other it's the boys you know and you do you build relationships from that because everybody's there and no one wants to really let their emotions be heard or seen there were two blokes that took their lives you know that literally while i was on the run and it was hard because i didn't know but yet the detectives that come into each of the cells open up and they go so uh so-and-so took his life last night what did you hear what do you know how the [ __ ] would i hear anything yeah all right you're asking what i hear you know what i can't hear a bloke detain himself four deals four cells down or three cells down because you you completely isolate us i can't help anybody can't help myself at the best of times near it now how the [ __ ] would i know just trying to get through the day yeah exactly so then you take that on board and you go man what did that bloke go through knowing that was that the right choice when he did what he did was there a thought of [ __ ] i really don't want to do this and i can't i can't detach you know if you're in a wing you generally two out or you know you can talk to other inmates through when you hear things you know when you're in a wing everything echoes you gotta tell [ __ ] to shut up because you want to go to sleep like it gets that bad yeah when you're in segro you he's [ __ ] unless it's allowed you know and i mean darks had times like that hit you hit home because you start going for it affects everybody in that area i guess you're thinking what's he thinking what i'm thinking at the moment and this is this is what i've got to look forward to but this is the thing is this my only out it seems like i understand criminals and i understand punishment but in an in an area like that i feel like we're going to look at that in 50 years time 60 years time and go and look at that as like a like a concentration camp style you know with disgust like we did at the concentration camps because of especially when it comes to mental health so any crime or any punishment that someone with mental health receives now i think in in years to come we're going to look at that like we treated them really poorly almost like burning witches because it seems like you can't it seems like that's just our best option and it's an antiquated option that we've used for hundreds of hundreds of years is just lock them up but something something you know something's not right there you've got a very valid point there and it's funny um you know two of my guests that i recorded over the weekend um john killick and um bernie matthews the hairs on my arms are standing up at the moment just mentioning their names what those men who are both you know early to mid 70s how they're even still here i don't know their stories um you know i've seen it hardened i know how tough it can get it's nothing what i've seen that i thought was tough and hard and suffering and pain [ __ ] bro when the way the system is today they've got a duty of care you know okay we say we don't get a phone call we didn't get to watch a tv because i didn't put one in our cell oh my meal was cold um you know like oh they locked us down for two days like these blokes were locked in what they called black cells for 14 to 16 days straight they they had no no light yeah there was nothing in there but a concrete slab and a tin um one of my guests talks about a button become his best friend because what he'd do is he'd flick the button up and he'd spend the rest of the day on his hands and knees looking for this but this is [ __ ] you see in movies but this is fact there's been royal commissions into the treatment of inmates both male and female in institutions over the last uh [ __ ] where are we so let's take it back to late 60s right up to the early 90s [Music] they had shut jails down because of the ill treatment of prisoners you're talking about beatings beyond anything you and i had ever seen these men were handed porridge with maggots in it and made to eat it otherwise they'd be flogged both of these men have come out and said in their interviews they would come out of their cells daily waiting to just be knocked out they were almost begging that the first hit with the baton would be in the head and they'd be knocked out so they didn't have to feel the rest of the beating and this went on for [ __ ] years you know and the people that were there with them became they're called intractables and there was between 16 and 20 of them in total there's books written about it these men were products of their environment they were predominantly sexually abused through all the the boys homes with the inquiries at tamworth mount penang or the juvenile detention centers all abused they then go to jail they just rebel they become notorious escapees that can't be held down they become extremely violent that are just instantly stabbing other inmates attacking officers you could not settle them down why but and what i'm doing is think about where they've where their lives have started as young people now you're talking about these men being incarcerated for training running away from home stealing a push bike to then becoming russell street bombers notorious serial killers raper submurders bank rockers habitual bank robbers and violent violent offenders what are you going to get out of flogging and destroying a human in an institutional environment where they're already deprived of everything and i get it you [ __ ] do the crime you do the time but there's a rehabilitation factor to it you do not get rehabilitated by being abused or or physically stripped and beaten it doesn't make sense you hit a dog a dog will generally start to cower but i guarantee you sooner or late that dog will one day will bite you yeah why and the dog gets put down exactly so what's the difference between a human that's incarcerated yes okay he's in a maximum security environment he's on a strict program but has to be beaten almost to his death every day i know the one thing i'd be thinking about is i'd be hunting you and your [ __ ] family for every day of my life that i get out and i would make sure i take the whole lot of years out there in the most powerful way i could to destroy you yeah that sounds sickening but that's the mind of somebody that would have had to have gone through what they went through so you know today we jump forward and we talk about the rehabilitation of um inmates and people like myself who have had to go a lot of it comes down to self-choice systems are very different today because they have a duty of care we are aware there's cameras everywhere don't get me wrong shit's still happening absolutely there's things happening there's a way around every system isn't there well whether you're right or wrong like like i said to one of my guests i said so these these screws or offices a daily beating and he said brent he could the one thing i couldn't understand he goes they'd flog us we'd come to and you'd hear him talking outside our cell doors about how the young fellas got on the footy and their daughter's doing really well at school like it was nothing it was just part of the job now you can't tell me that your mindset if you're that screwer officer is not twisted yeah you're beating an inmate that you're saying is not okay in the head to start with how sick of [ __ ] human have you got to be to sit there on a daily basis and beat somebody to absolute unconscious near death black and blue dripping with blood everywhere and laugh about it chuck them back in the cell move on to the next one who's the criminal yeah the it's the generational thing as well i guess when like back if you go down 1800s you know that probably happened more so even worse it's only 100 it's only gotten better really hasn't it like when it comes to the abuse purely because there's voices people speaking up about it exactly but if you're grandfathered into that like say if i was a 60 year old man who was a prison guard that means i conceivably could have started when i was early 20s that's almost 40 years ago almost 40 years ago 70s yeah over there she's my mess i'm doing this yeah i'm 44 dad's 70. so there you go here we go look at me go okay i'm still doing this carry the two so you're talking about that so in the 70s guards were beating the piss out of people right right up right through the 80s and into the early 90s oh you're talking about exactly so conceivably that i would have started at that point so why why would my mentality have changed or what would have caused it to change and if you're grandfathering in that every new guard comes in you're like well this is how we do [ __ ] here and then i'll bring up a point like nazis when you look at nazis this is probably a bad comparison but this is what i've read about recently they a lot of the nazis weren't actually bad people no they weren't they were just following orders they were following orders and they were they were almost like you can't tell me there was a million two million guards out there that wanted to kill jews all the time what they were what they were was grandfathered into it now this is how we do it and it became they would push back push back and then it just became this is what we do so it just became acceptable and if you're introducing new guards all the time to the system and then the old guys like they might go through an induction and say oh this is how we treat a prisoner we we turn around we don't do this we don't do that remember we don't touch the prisoner and then you get two month streams into your job and the guy goes mate that's a [ __ ] waste of time this is how we do it here it's funny you bring up that whole nazi thing and like i i agree it could be a sensitive point so for anybody out there it's not something that we're trying to glorify here but there was a ruling i believe that one of my guests i think it might have been bernie matthews uh used in reference to how it went down in the crimes commissions about the ill treatment of these inmates one of the officers pled um a law or something that was used back then of i well i wish i could remember exactly word for it what it is is it basically takes ownership away from your actions because you were told to do it you're only doing your job so in other words it eliminates any conscious acceptance of knowing that you sent people to death all you're saying is i was ordered to do this it's a cop-out i was just doing my job and apparently that was a part of somebody got off uh when they did the war crime enquiries and then put people away for the for the terrible atrocities that was a very valid [ __ ] thing that kept coming up and then there was um an officer that was able to walk away from because of it there's no just no responsibility for it is there well chain of command is something that you know has been emphasized into today's world you know that as a tradesman i know that as an interstate truck driver you have a responsibility from the top to the bottom yeah each of us has to take responsibility there's no more and this is why in the broader spectrum of the world this is why they they implement this particular practice now as everybody's then responsible so if you're flogging like and look the squad as as it's known mate if you're going to [ __ ] carry on you're going to get flogged it's just simple they're not nice they're [ __ ] but it is there is a chain of command and and you know what they look at now that is if there was just an average screw over there beaten on an inmate then it's up to his buddy to actually now realize that if anybody else seen that and you've seen that and you didn't act and you didn't tell the higher authority that that bloke was beaten unfairly on an inmate then it's going to come down the line and you're going with him which then puts them into a position will [ __ ] i don't want to get in trouble i don't want to look up so then you get your [ __ ] dogs and snitches and and that's the terminology for it but on the other side of it is he going to do the right thing by that bloke humanely say man he doesn't need to be getting flogged like that or beaten i need to stop it yeah it's a it's a fine line right nobody wants to be the snitch that's scary to think i can tell you on my side of the fence you just don't be a snitch yeah yeah you can't yeah well you look at that um the all the george floyd stuff the guy that was killed in the states so the guy who was actually kneeling on him and i don't want to go too deep and thought yeah the guy who was kneeling on him the the three others and there's just much trouble as he is well it's they brought in a law many many years ago so we're more younger and we were jumping bank counters um you know say for example hypothetically i'll talk about one that was charged okay because i was convicted of it you know it's public knowledge so we'd pull up in a stolen car middle of the city there'd be a driver and there'd be three passengers high performance vehicle three of us would jump out bang run straight in and this is before they had shutters and [ __ ] so we'd launched straight over the counters cleaning out the drawers and if we could hit the safe we did the safe ninety percent of them weren't even armed it was literally a standover yep but we were young [ __ ] with balls and we got what we wanted you know you you're you're out you're cached yeah back then if you got pinched and you're only the driver you'd only get done for the stolen car oh really yeah yeah or if you're the cocky out there you know keep noise you wouldn't get done as the same as the blokes who ran into jump the counter today it's uh comes under i believe it's group enterprise yeah so it doesn't matter whether you're at home on a mobile phone ringing the bloke in the car telling him listen i just seen on the news there's a chopper over the head and you've got dave allen journey into the bank and they're ready to hold it up and it's all happening and say there's a gun that goes off unfortunately somebody's shot they pass away it's a murder blue armed robbery murder it's the lot you're looking at [ __ ] 20 years plus i'll mate that made the phone call the davo in the car that's keeping cocky about what he just heard on the news chopper yeah you're all going down [ __ ] it scary isn't it well it is not for me because i'm not making phone calls tonight well i mean it doesn't doesn't affect me either but for those that are out there that are considering and i'm not talking about banks banks got no money in them anymore but if you're considering you know committing crimes like i guess it's it's like this gang mentality street gang mentality where they they're pissed weak ninety percent of them they won't have a crack one on one you know it's like there's one or two blokes and ten of them will jump and next minute they're pulling knives out and unfortunately a lot of youth using knives today and they're not thinking about the con i personally pull a gun on me i'll keep walking forward i've done it many times i don't fear a gun i'd be more concerned about someone pulling a knife on me because the bottom line is if i've got a loaded gun and you do i'll tell you you do think if i pull this trigger it's just uh you're dead yeah gun bullet mind death yeah if i've got a blade i'm not thinking about killing you but you've got a real big chance of that blade causing death it doesn't feel as serious that we mean like that's right psychologically you just stabs dad but if you get someone or him obviously you've got to just look at someone's hand you'll know if they know what they're doing with the knife the moment they're holding it right but we're not going to say that over here because i like to keep that one up asleep i wouldn't but you know what i mean the average person would look to disarm someone if they had that at that confidence in them first thing you'd look at is the position of the person and how they're holding the knife you know i mean you'll know whether you're serious or not but if you get someone that's hesitant and especially with the drugs and the way that the world is today twitchy you don't know that that person at any spare second is just going to leap forward and bang hit you in the throat hit you in the chest and accidentally kill you i'm sure they don't intentionally think they're going to kill you as opposed to someone that's pulling a gun on you because i guess carrying a gun is a real serious thing to do like if you're carrying a gun you've got intention might always said if you're going to carry a gun make sure you pull the trigger yeah like i just don't see the point walking around with the gun if you're not willing to use it well that's like the police in new zealand don't carry guns which i think is fantastic and it's broadly because as far as i understand it's broadly because if there's a kerfuffle or a scuffle or a fight or something breaks out you have to stop that fight you have to be mindful of the fact that you're carrying a weapon you can't just jump in there and break it up or jump in there and man handle someone and pull them down you got to almost stop things with your gun that becomes your way of stopping a problem yeah but if you don't have it then you're in you know i mean they do carry them in the cars and things oh yeah and i mean they have a special team that turn up with them too i've seen the size of the guns that they've got over there they're good nonsense but yeah but i see i i get that and i think it takes a little bit of that ego and power trip away too from the law enforcers you know like okay use a taser taser i don't know the stats but i'm pretty sure that there's more people alive that have been tasered than not yeah how many people are alive that have been shot these days they don't go for your leg yeah you know back in the day when you're running away they'll shoot you in the back of the leg or to to you know disembark you on your journey where you're going you're not going to keep going today it'll be just like a draw and shoot and they're trying to just shoot in vital areas then they worry about it later you know um i don't think that's good for anyone i really don't you know and new zealand are set in the bar in a lot of ways and i think you know even in that way the way that they're dealing and no one can take away how bad new zealand can be let's it's a beautiful place my wife's a kiwi and you know i understand i get i have many mates over there too you yourself you know it you've lived it you've been there man it can get hectic and i believe a little bit dangerous than here yeah it's [Laughter] yeah i don't quite know how to yeah like i just i don't i don't have a firm grasp on the reason but there's certainly okay put it this way when i moved here there's areas where i'm from in hawke's bay that you were pretty much told you didn't want to break down in there yeah in that area all right when i first came here i um i was working for a bloke and carom and he goes i'll take you through the dodgy area he took me through this small area in palm beach on the street oh me oh this is lovely it's beautiful it's pretty dodgy this area because it was like this was i mean i'm talking 12 13 years ago yeah but even then it wasn't bad like that was when we had the methadone clinic on the gold coast highway the strippers used to be up and down the highway like you could stop and pick a hooker up but that's why i was like well there's this incredible place it's beautiful here life's good i can take where you don't want to break down and i mean a lot of that's probably um what's the word a lot of it's probably beefed up more than it has to be but there's some bad areas and a lot of that's the low socioeconomic area absolutely crime is a crime is not it's just a form of survival well the gang mentality over there is different too yeah they live and breathe it yeah it's not like here you pull up on a friday night throw your colors on go for a ride do a few skids and get really [ __ ] off your tits and go home sunday yeah and woohoo we had a good time yeah you know i mean over there it's 24 7. you know and trouble gums trumbull you want trouble trouble's there you can find it without a doubt you know and i think that it's it's a different mentality you know but what my point was was how new zealand deal with that you know the law the government because that would be a lot more in your face i think than what we've got going on here as as hard as australian a lot of the cultures can be a lot of the um gang stuff's wrapped up in culture which is what we're seeing a lot of now in australia it's it's it's hitti yeah you're seeing you know like and um there's always been which culture is that which culture is that i think it's more you know that polynesian culture at the moment this this drilling or whatever they call it you know there's this rap gang sort of like it doesn't matter where they look that's moved from there that's my point you know and it's all over here g you know what i mean yeah and um we've always had you know there's always been you know um aboriginals islanders asians go to jail mate there's segregated yards in some jails you know the aussie islander yard asians uh lebanese like it's just the way it is but i think it's gotten a lot worse today and predominantly you know adopting that that um attitude from over there bringing it here the states um even in england i believe at the moment you know has got with their ethnic groups over there and stuff you know quite a heavy drilling or multiple gang i i don't even like i don't understand it i don't because i get it i have been in gangs i understand it but you had to stand on your own two feet yeah you had to be a man before you came in not just [ __ ] where 10 out we're gonna [ __ ] you up so i'm not obviously i'm pretty like my informational ganks is very low yeah my from an as an outsider very much outside looking in i always attributed it to um the feeling of family that you never had absolutely back back when i was coming through for me personally yeah and for a lot of good men that i knew and still do uh it was about brotherhood it was about family it was about giving a damn about each other and you know yeah you loved your brother it's what it became a love for each other and nothing was a problem and you would go to the death for each other without a doubt take that out of context and you've got what's going on now you can't go into areas without getting stabbed or shot at and ah man i just i so for you i don't i just don't get it when you decided to get out i don't know how deep you want to go into it you're welcome to go either way but when you decided that it wasn't for you anymore that gang life was that because you found more comfort in your family than you you know so if you're still a single man i'd be still in there you'd probably still be in the games because it yeah you couldn't say it's just look i don't think that my gift in life is my wife yeah because man she's a strong strong woman who stood by me for thick and thin and she taught me to love she must be a champion because she's a kiwi [ __ ] off [Laughter] you're a smart man oh look i tell you i wouldn't have yeah i'm blessed truly blessed and her and you know her family structure and morals and that are something that i've taken on yeah i had to learn to love and i meant truly love and love myself i had to learn to be a father because i wasn't a father i didn't know how to be a father i had no guidance in that respect so funny enough here's this woman that comes into my life totally different uh man i remember her telling me one time when i first started hanging out and i'm thinking [ __ ] you know she's a bit out of my league but i was persistent you know man she's beautiful we went out on a date she said i look you know it's just not gonna work you know we're too different my family you know my big brother said you know i can't sort of be seen you're a bikey or this or that i was like [ __ ] this [ __ ] yeah and i thought man that that hurt so all of a sudden i started to feel this this this heart little string get pulled and i was like oh that hurt yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i never cared before that you know i know that sounds terrible because i was a father by then and i'd been in a long-term relationship with my son's mum for 10 years so you know what it hurt i was like i like that feeling of feeling human i want to know more anyway a few more visits later and next minute i've got are on the back of the bike i'm going down to meet the family and here i am getting off the bike and a full set of cars and the harley pulls up in the driveway and the old man comes out and they're quite a spiritual family very very very um very well connected like spiritually connected you know lovely lovely people they're originally from pihar and old hippie sort of stuff yeah the old boy comes out short in stature the big in presence how did i get off the bike and he's you know walked up and i put my hand out g'day man he goes get a big fella and put his arms out and give me a hug and guess you're welcome in my home [ __ ] and i went [ __ ] oh really did this just happen you know and from that moment on um to this day you know i call my in-laws mum and dad because i just love them they're the best and never once have they judged me i mean the poor things i went and visited them all at their house a couple of days before i got arrested and they had me on the watch for four days the federal police so when they raided they hit my home my in-laws home which lived on a property south of the border they just pumped everywhere thinking that they got the big one and i that's probably one of my toughest regrets i was in sydney i was like you know arrested and they're going oh do you want to go back to the federal police station to make a stop saying oh [ __ ] yourselves i'm saying nothing yeah all right sweets off to macquarie fields police station in the middle of the housing commission they threw him in this dingy little cell and that was where i sat so well chief i want a phone call he said anyone ringing i said it's listed he has not conflict of interest you can't ring him because they tried to say that my then solicitor had knowledge or involvement about whatever i was doing right because i'd had the same solicitor forever he had no knowledge knew nothing he just was acting for me when needed to be but they tried to stop that very convenient yeah yeah very convenient i said look i said i need to ring my wife she's pregnant uh what's her number anyway i didn't know and i'm thinking yeah i'll just need to ring her she'll get me a solicitor her family yeah mate the feds were all over there they've got her parents in there and they've got her she's like popped out like the most probably traumatic thing for them to have to experience off my doing you know yeah nothing no there was no nothing found nothing and to be honest i reckon they probably did it just to stick [ __ ] um listening devices through the house you know to try and build their case even further whatever but i still put them through that yeah you know and 16 years later um there's nothing but love there and treat me like a son and you know so when you ask the question about you know would i still be having this in front of me why would i want to continue that life when i have everything now that i've always wanted i never had that growing up i always wanted to be loved but i become a hardened [ __ ] because of that reason that i was neglected through necessity absolutely it become my defense in life so all of a sudden i started to realize that underneath the colors that i was wearing back then you know the hardness the thick skin was just this scared little boy who just wanted to be loved and cared for and funny enough i'm a man mate i'll sit here and that's how it was you know i'm not ashamed to say it it was brought out my wife today brought that out of me a lot of hard work a lot of years and man how she's still [ __ ] beside me i like i don't know that woman she's been through the best of me and the worst of me and god love us she's still there now so it's a birthday tomorrow so if this goes out on the 20th yeah happy birthday love he told me what to get in your wow boom so yeah i mean look and not only that i've seen times change like i made a a decision to step away from club life before i went to jail there were things that were changing um i'm an old school bloke i'm young as a when you compare to the old school knockabouts i was raised by all the old gangsters yeah so i've been living the life since i was a kid i was a street kid the way that i looked at things the mentality i had was of that nature so i expected it to continue that way and it's not today at all and has changed massively is that why a lot of guys get out absolutely um look i love i'll put it to you straight i loved my club i love my brothers and i still do love many of them today i there's blokes that i'll still talk to coffee whatever they're good men you know and and forever there's something that we'll all share take to the grave it's just what it is i don't understand today's style of um i don't know i don't know gangster or street gang i don't know i don't want to identify because you know like i'm not here to bag anyone i'm just saying i don't get it from how i was raised and brought into that lifestyle to how it is today there was always um a chain of command there was always structure there were rules things you did you got [ __ ] punished for if you [ __ ] up you knew you [ __ ] up was that how was it run like an army almost do you see the rings definitely definitely some some outfits were a lot more um stricter in that that respect but definitely yeah there had to be structure you know without going into too much detail and it's just something that i choose not to disclose that's me um but you know people can read about and that there's there's a structure a line of command an authority you know person you have to answer to somebody or you did um and you know if you're lucky enough to to work your way through um i was you know able to get to a quite a high ranking and you know you've got to remain still true to yourself and your brothers you you can't go thinking that okay because i'm here now that i'm [ __ ] king [ __ ] because you just get taken clean out yeah it you don't last it's as simple as that so when you accepted the fact that this wasn't for you anymore how does that go hard lonely um look i think i was blessed um with the path that i've walked and the honor that i'd and respect i'd shown i never did wrong by anybody i never turned my back on any of the brothers i never disrespected the outfit yeah i think there's a few times there where there's been up and comers that have heard of who i am and and maybe stories and thought oh yeah [ __ ] he's a trophy you know man and look i like a book out of here and get shot that's just the way it is i've got a past i don't hide from it and as i said i've you know i've never never told anyone i don't have any skeletons i don't fear any retribution because of me doing wrong or saying things that i shouldn't have said that's not me as a human um but there's always someone there that may dislike the fact that others respect you still and they want to make a little name for themselves you know what i mean so well that you you can probably identify with that because you were a young brash man you know that you know what i mean you very different but back then mate you wouldn't be game enough to if that person had a little bit of um a little bit of clout in a little bit of um form and as long as that person hasn't done wrong by you or the outfit that you run with let it be yeah because you know like i'm i'm i'm a humble man today and i'm a father-in-law but i guarantee you come at me you wanna you wanna you wanna kill me because if you're done i'm gonna come back and take you out it's as simple as that i i don't give a [ __ ] that's the life i've lived that that'll never change yeah i refuse to let that change i will protect myself to the death and my family and my loved ones so you know just i'm not here and i won't disrespect anybody i'm not going to put anybody down i'm not going to belittle anyone or talk out of school just go about your business man because i'm just doing my thing i think that's one thing that you've always authentically come across as like you're very open about your past but that's where it sort of begins and ends yeah you know you're open without being um what's the word like you're open without sort of spilling it all yeah there's things there's things there that you just literally people sell out people sell out telling their story i've got a story that can be spoken of without incriminating anyone myself or bringing any disrespect like i to this day if you know my path and you know the club that i've been with if you know that then that's good i'm not going to sit here and glorify and big note it and tell everybody oh i was this member of this club doing this and that we know i know yeah that's all that needs to be said you know what i mean there's no there's no disrespect there's no game so first controversial question for you you're a young son yes the the dynamite kid if he came to you and said dad i think i'm gonna be part of a gang very good question what would you say to him remembering let me put this into context as well remembering he's 18 20 big fella bigger than you now and the thing is whatever i'm going to say he's still going to do what he wants to do yeah obviously obviously you want to make him grow up so he never has to have that option that is my goal in my life for my children my three boys is to make sure that they are educated they are um articulate they are respectful they are um able to work hard and know the the morals and ethics that we should abide by on life that i was never guided i never got given those tools so for me i had to find my own tools and i'm forever grateful because i'm still here talking to you right now through very uh mate [ __ ] how i'm still alive and then i'm not saying like because i've done wrong white people that but just where i've been things that i've been involved in shit's gone south many times and you know i'm carrying a few scars and [ __ ] holes in my body because of it but that's the life i chose to live if i could prevent my own children from ever happening go down that path from having these type of conversations just proper table talk real real talk great if my youngest fellow came to me and said dad oh man [ __ ] i you know what i don't think i could honestly answer it because my heart right here sits there and says no [ __ ] way i just wouldn't have it wouldn't tolerate no you'd do everything you needed to do i would but then do you push your son away because of those actions and does he look bad in front of his crew and his buddies because obviously he's down with who he's gone and run with they already know each other yeah there's already history there so what have they done what have they been up to you know what i mean like these are the thoughts that most parents probably don't look at they just think oh yeah oh you've just met these guys no there's obviously a connection there if your son's telling you that they're going to go forward and patch into somewhere or they're right down with this click there's history yeah yeah they've done [ __ ] so how far is he in for starters yeah i don't know i honestly couldn't answer it i mean look we say even and i don't want to please don't take this out of context but you know your son comes home and says dad i'm i'm gay do you love your son or turn him away you love your son you love son you're spoiled you know you don't you don't sit there and go well you're gay you're no longer you you embrace it you understand it you try to educate yourself um and you realize that this is this is who your son is so how do you love your son being a happy person and here and that's what we want for our kids to be happy just more it'd be more along the lines of hey i still love you you know i'm not pumped on you doing this man i because and then also i don't want to throw this i'm not trying to throw this i can't answer it honestly i could say to you well [ __ ] you got to do it and then you're like hands down mate this is the fact you can't you almost can't be a hypocrite these are the facts you know so do you let them run their race and make the mistakes and then you know what's to say that it doesn't get that bad or you know he doesn't establish himself enough that if he needs to pull out and still be held respectful and honorable that it's not retaliation after that do i lose a son to some young punk wants to come up stab him on the street because he's no longer with the crew man i don't know it's a brutal question you probably never thought about but it's not and i i truly pray to god that i'm not putting that position there if it came to it i would arm up and walk straight into their crew and clubhouse and and probably just go listen we're here he's he's done yeah he's done if he's want to take it out you want to go on what would go on with it if not please go about what you're doing just let him walk that's the tough thing too because if he's got his own mind look he's going to have his own mind and opinions that might you know i mean we're probably diving deep into hypotheticals here but you know he's hitting the path there he might be he might well that's the other side of it you know am i disrespecting my son by doing that and you know then if i put a label on a target on his back being the protective dad and oh man it just opens up so much more beyond no you're not going to do that boy yeah yeah you you just can't have that mindset these kids kids naturally are going to go oh i can't [ __ ] i'm going to go well exactly and i mean look i know a lot of parents these days it's almost like you have to celebrate you almost go oh i've been dying for this day oh thank god one of your boys have done this and then you just go oh yeah three out of four ain't bad you know like one out of four ain't bad like it's just call us bluff oh man yeah i don't know and i i really and i think it's going to be a very tough day if that would ever incur i think the biggest thing is for me is to keep them active like my children have been like i fought muay thai for over 20 years i've trained most of my life the thing is my children do the same thing they still train twice a week my son um you know twice a week muay thai twice a week rugby league um he's out surfing they are actively involved in some sort of activity that has positive results at the end of it that they feel good about around like-minded people yeah um you know then look i grew up in housing commissioned the western suburbs of sydney i grew up on the streets my mentality was a product of my environment they're not brought into that environment and they know that if i found out they were knocking around you know at young ages with kids that are troubled i'd be more inclined to want to help those kids and find out why they're like that and why my children have taken a liking to them rather than just going no they're [ __ ] you can't it's not the kids fault at that age it's not their fault it's it's our fault yeah yeah yeah exactly and the parents can take ownership of that you can identify that kid and go well he's like there for a reason so i do mentoring that yeah i do mentoring with troubled youth through um two project projects which is project booyah and um there's another one that was run by the queensland government and you know i get so much enjoyment out of walking into one of their 12-week programs and the rise program is probably the best one i've done in the last few years and you know like gary the bloke that runs it's an absolute legend and mate they work very hard to try and break this cycle i'll come in they'll see a snippet of my story on sbs or wherever the doco is that they pull it from they'll sit down and then the next day they'll come in and i'll come in and we walk in there it's always the alphas they're asha lads and he's smoking he's sick he's got his tns on he's got his naughty ca shirt on and i'm a [ __ ] sick you're kicking and shoving and pushing the other boat seeing little johnny's sitting over there is just full of anxiety and i walk in and scan the room it's no different to being somewhere else the way i've lived my life you know yeah back to the wall and i'm looking around and know exactly who's who and where and what we get into a group and i start to understand by just talking them their body language and then break them down in the end i get them all on an even playing field they're no bigger or better than each other they're all going through trauma and tough times some of these kids mate mum's a prostitute on the pipe they've got siblings these kids getting them up changing their nappies sharing washing feed them mate it breaks my heart like and i mean it's hard to do these programs because you can't help but get emotionally connected to some of these stories almost like going to the animal welfare league so much so every time you see just something you know i just want to pick it up and hold it pick it up and help it your poor thing you know and these young men are no different but the success rate that gary's having through the rise program is huge and i have been honored i think it's been nearly four years now with that prior to that was when i first got to jail with project booyah run by the queensland government and queensland police um and it was all about trying to help these guys make a better choice the reward at the end when you see them all in a circle arms around each other and i try to bring that morale in at the end of it i mean they're all in tears so they go from this you know tough alpha little punks you know walking around kicking each other pushing and sucking on his siggy and you know talking his [ __ ] cursor talk and whatever the [ __ ] talk that they [ __ ] talk you can't understand anyone go on hey bro man i got you yeah with a tear running down their cheek realizing that each of them are all wanting the same thing they just want to be loved they just want to be heard and um you know that they don't want to live they don't want to have to go through isn't it crazy to think that you can go into a uh an environment with troubled youth and do that and hopefully steer them in that direction of doing good and everything like that but again can do the same thing without doubt and accept them and you can almost see like without going back into it again yeah you can almost see how game members are absorbed because of the weakness too they can go well we know this person and intentions might be really good and i don't i don't want to go into attention or anything like that but you can see how it's like it's just it's like it it's almost like they're on a tip of a mountain and they could just fall either way it could go either way and you just don't know which one are they going to go to success are they going to get a crime are they going to go to brotherhood are they going to go to like you know start beating their family just because of the people and that's exactly yeah exactly um you know handing it back down generation after generation you've got to remember a lot of these kids don't get the opportunity to break the cycle i mean i was a kid originally from a housing commission environment was an indigenous community i was a white kid in a black aboriginal indigenous black white i i don't care there's racism here so take that for what it is i'm not being racist by using the word black okay so let's just get that clear i was a white kid growing up in indigenous community so i know what racism is all about yeah i didn't have the choices today the choices are there to be there's plenty of help we didn't have help my breakaway from that environment and continuing to bring my next generation into that um that housing commission sort of low um living there's so many good people there that aren't there by choice it's circumstantial but there's people that are just that's how it is yeah and they don't get off the bus you know what i mean and the next kids and the kids and the kids and it's just a product that keeps revolving you you can yeah you've got to give them option so these kids through this wonderful project program that um gary does the rise program it's about rising up he's about knowing that you can step away you know you don't have to feel that that is going to be your life that your way you've got choices because when you're in a little you're in the bubble aren't you absolutely just pretty much know your suburb and what you see on tv and even more so back when you were there because there's no such thing as you know there was tv you know you had tv back yeah you know what i mean but back then i used to like monkey magic whoosh there's no internet you didn't see the glorification of rules so what you had was your bubble well that was it i mean you know be ten kids in one kid's uh bedroom that had a commodore 64. yeah somehow the old boy must have knocked it off from somewhere and you know the whole street would go and hang out at their house yeah well that's it but you didn't know about you didn't know about like success stories you didn't know about anything like that so what you had was so i hold a lot of faith in today and that people can sort of absorb a lot of material that can show that it's different like what you're providing you can sit here and say that this never existed when you're a young fellow you couldn't go oh look there's like speaking about the way things were and that could be potentially me in 30 years time the thing is too john r2 you never really wanted to talk about your true feelings you never wanted to really open up about what was going on because you always you were different so then you know you'd be isolated you wouldn't get invited to your buddy's house because all of a sudden your parents are separated all the trouble in your home can't trust that kid yeah that kid's gonna steal that kid's not honest that kid's gonna lie i don't want my kid around that kid and that's wrong but that really is that's a really tough lesson that unfortunately kids go through i had to go through it because i didn't have the family environment i had i had literally tommy radonicus send me a letter i could have played in the arl i mean i was a great footballer um and i played right up here and you know with seagulls and tugan and i love my rugby league but i had all the talent i had no stability yeah so i i'd turn up to training and i'd be you know especially as a young 15 year old and he's his damaged kid turning up trying to chase a dream and all the kids are turning up mum and dad's dropping them off watching the train i'd pretend i got dropped off and then i'd sit around when everyone had left in the dark freezing cold and [ __ ] winter wait till everyone had gone to then walk off and walk a very lonely walk back to where i was living in a shack or a street or on sleeping in an oval mate it was hard hard then when the coach can't contact your parents and have a chat and you know talk about things that they need to discuss with the guardians there people start ask questions next minute they find out i'm in foster care and i'm running away from foster care i've been taken out of school i was an abused child um they didn't want to know about me talent was not worth it it was too much with the talent that they would have had to deal with you know whereas today if you knew that the young person wanted to excel in something and you could help in god there are there's structure there and people that can assist to help today yeah which will enable you to get that opportunity and not to feel worthless and to feel that you have to turn your back and just go [ __ ] society i'm going to go and be auntie everything because they've let me down i guess if you're getting told it often like he's no good he's you know he's trouble he's trouble you think [ __ ] yeah we'll be trouble well it is watch me go yeah absolutely and you know how many times can you be told you can't go to a kid's birthday party because your parents are split up you know well we can't you can't invite him and it happened to me mate like i was this kid just wanting to be accepted as a young person 12 13. i was playing footy with all these boys and i was playing great young footballers making junior rep teams it's as far as it went but whenever it came down to jono's birthday or davey's birthday or they were going to have a do whether they just swam around the parents pool at your place things that kids do when they catch up yeah i was never invited never slippery slope oh yeah bro it really like it hurts now talking about it because i think it hurts now as well painful you know it would have hurt you but also you you would probably and i know this with my kids like when you think about something you missed out on something about something that hurt you as a child you automatically i do i automatically think of my kids having to suffer that and that's what makes me more upset than how i actually felt at the time it makes me more upset to feel like how to know how they would be feeling my daughter just recently got bullied at school and she's vision impaired so she um she can't she's certain but she can't run around active like a lot of the kids too because of her vision movement so she's got so she's so she has she doesn't wear glasses does she she can't know so she's she's she has no null point and she can only see to a certain distance so her eyes spin 24 7. she was born with congenital motor nystagmus syndrome so she won't ever drive a car and and do a lot of things that a lot of teenagers are experiencing now um she's extremely arty and very very good with her singing which is something we've uh spent many years investing in coach-wise and and sharing something that she's passionate about harnessing it to give her something yeah and her high school she goes to today accepted her in not only just on her her good skills and merit but she got academically accepted but um she got a bit of a scholarship um cool yeah through her music but you know um she comes home and she doesn't like to she hates being treated different but there's a particular bench that she sits on and she's got a two or three little girlfriends and that's it you know because she's not out there playing sports running around socializing it just doesn't work for her and then you've got these these crew of girls that come up and they step on their lunch bags on their their backpacks they've actually got their phones in it and stuff like that and crack their lunchboxes and bully bullying abuse and and i that hurts oh yeah because i come home and i think and she's been doing muay thai for the last two and a half years and mate her confidence is through the roof god love her she'd kick you and you wouldn't feel it yeah but her technique is better than anyone i know and she's she is unbelievably gifted in what she's able to do with shown but she got up and defended herself she doesn't like conflict and she does need to be considerate because she can't see fast movement and she wouldn't see somebody if they blindsided her she she could end up hit her head she could be dead instantly yeah yeah she's like a size of a year three student in year seven so petite and tiny and i my blood boils because i think man i was bullied when i was a kid because i was the kid that was different you know i i didn't have a big brother i didn't have mum and dad to come down and defend me at the school i was just [ __ ] and i came from a [ __ ] family i was just a [ __ ] kid and i'm thinking you just can't treat her like this because she's different yeah it's not okay you know and her little girlfriend um was traveling and i was i shouldn't i'm not in an answer now but anyway she's she's um her sexuality is she's she's gay not that my daughter is but my daughter's good friends with her like so the three girls have all got something different the other girl's a lovely girl but she's a bigger girl do you know what i mean there's they're three different young ladies that have come together to build a little bit of morale and strength you can see how they would be considered like they're outsiders yeah yeah and you you know that from your primary school don't you the kids sort of just they've got their own quirkiness about what the [ __ ] is up with that [ __ ] you got a whole thousand two thousand kids to go and pick on and you want to pick on three little girls sitting on a little bench well that's insecurity on them you know that's the kids [ __ ] you're [ __ ] my baby thank you you know i like you and this is but this then we go into the the reality of it all the reality of it all is this you and i can't go onto that premises you and i can't go and sit down with our children at lunchtime and let everyone know that we're dad yeah and you know they need to and i mean my daughter and i guess your children need to learn to stand on their own two feet because if we intervene too much at this time especially as young teenagers and it's not going to build character and strength for them that that's spot especially my daughter with living with a disability she needs to be strong so i've got to look at it from that point of view [ __ ] man my heart just goes it's tough because you almost want to i've just said to my wife i said well what i'll do i'll just find out what kid it is and they'll just fine with their father that's what i said i'm just going to knock the father out that's cool he's obviously going to have to suffer for what his daughter's done exactly i'm happy to suffer to do but i'm unfortunately that's just what's gonna have to happen that's right and we'll sort it out that way but you can't you're like oh trust me i've had many thoughts of this it's hard it's uh it's not character building is we're spot on because if you wrap your kids up in cottonwood especially kids who have something that they can be used as a vulnerability yes you're really only damaging them more and i think today too john the way that the world is in society it's different you and you and i went to school yeah we had bullies yeah but your bully got put in its place yeah yeah yeah you know and and you know you probably did get up and punch on more back then than what you do today but we never had phones cameras it was always right back at the school after school at the bus bay down the bush yeah whatever nah man and you know you'd turn up and there'd be a massive big circle and you'd come into the middle of it and you know if it wasn't on the boys and you got up over it well sometimes i mean i remember i was i'd be getting there and i'd be i'd be on topics i'd have four or five boots in the headphones all these other pickles you're getting on top of their buddy so you got [ __ ] go slatherland that was just how it went you never went taller than anyone you just copped your [ __ ] flogging because you had to go back to school the next day yeah but if you stood up for yourself rarely would they come back and do it again and if they did well you just put your hands up another crack and they'd pretty well stop then there was no yeah there was never um there was never a second round was there when they sorted out it was sorted out and i don't think that's a bad thing like i actually as a father i'd probably get judged for this one but i don't think that's a bad thing because it sort of sorted the pecking order out and like everything in life you knew where you stood i would rather that i would rather a bit of bullying i'd rather fight a son i don't i'd rather him getting punching on at school yeah than him having to suffer um like online stuff like him coming home checking his facebook and having all these bad comments i'd rather he just went and dealt with it there yeah then or because that is the stuff that makes me super nervous and that it's just not scary that's scary [ __ ] and our suicide rate in young people predominantly through bullying yeah he's just through the roof i mean let's let's our coverts just centered up like 30 or 40 again but you know the young people of today um because they can be pissed weak they can speak with their thumbs they get two thumbs words are powerful and like i i i'm not going to sit here and preach that i've made i i had the devil's tongue especially in relationships or you know heated moments far out bro i might unleash man and it'd be like satan's just gone bleh but they were powerful words that hurt people you know my wife will tell me you know like don't you remember back 15 years ago you said blah blah blah blah blah blah like that was really nasty yeah you know what you're right well hurt people hurt people that's the trouble and that's what's hard to get across this children especially like i try and say that's my daughter i'm like the be the good person at all times because very rarely like if she had she's obviously dealt with changing teen but she's dealt with my youngest daughter's dealt with kids that are tricky to deal with at school you know and i said just always be the good person i said because that group that popular group that you're gonna try and be a part of because you might be mean to another kid you don't feel good about that but i'll tell you what they never when the good person disappears they go i wonder what happened to sansa yeah that's a good person they don't go oh no she's got like you but being no notorious for being just a good person is far more beneficial in the long run but kids can't see the long run it absolutely is i mean look my young fella um he's he's ten but he's been training muay thai since he was four um he's now had four fights yeah he's fought for a title he's been training he's 10 turning 11 he plays rugby league he's a very strong fit young man which he knows the rules he knows you pick someone up before you put them down yeah if you can help somebody and you can sit down and listen to somebody and my children have had the blessing and i call it a blessing because i've lived with mental illness so they have had to watch their dad fight this illness and it's not always been good i've been times where i'm just curled up in a ball you know in the past i don't want to do anything i'm depressed i'm manic i just go you know erratic and take everything to extreme levels they've had to witness that so i've had to owe them an explanation to what that is all about yeah today is great yeah you know so they're aware when somebody's down they know what signs to look for and it's been a beautiful thing that i've been now able to sit back and go i'm glad that i've been able to openly speak to my kids and share things with them because they'll come home and say dad there was someone little johnny in the playground and no one was playing with him you know and he looked really down so i went up and just sat with him and i said oh you know i don't want to kick a ball or pass the foot of your and my heart just goes full of just the most enormous amount of love and i think if that's what my children are taking away from me yeah then i'm okay yeah you know what they're gonna be okay and if they can live their life in that manner and always know that there's somebody else that you know may need a hand i've got no doubt if they're pushed they can defend themselves and they know what limits that they can go to before they will get in some big trouble but i also know too that they would rather not have conflict whereas i used to thrive on the conflict i i loved the energy of the more blood i've seen the more excited i got yeah you know and that's not good not for 10 year olds no no but i mean that was me back then you know because of such the pain and the anger and the suffering you know i it was like a release like i'm winning you're not going to hurt me you know well you should be i mean [ __ ] i think they should be proud that you know it can go two ways isn't it you can be an example you can be a example of how not to be and that's just almost just as powerful as how to be you know if you move if you move forward in that direction too i think so i think example positive leadership you know having good morale and and just you know having a good structure yeah is is the best way you know if we lose sight of that and then we're going to have big problems 2020 has been red hot mate so that's good yeah what was it red hot 2020. who's 20 20. i don't want to talk about that 2020 and i don't expect christmas in four months yep and uh 2021 is looking bright well look mate i wish you all the best with the clint coming up i'll be tuning in because uh obviously we can we can go deep probably a few more hours on this but you are yeah you got a unique perspective which i think is going to be really beneficial for you because i'll be if i hit up those blokes you're talking to they'll tell me where to go oh look you know i really am grateful thank you very much and i'm glad that we finally got to sit down and have some table talk um with smoko because you know it's a great thing you're doing and you know it's unreal to be able to sit down with other hosts and and have these chats and um you know i wouldn't mind getting you on mine just to pull your parks i reckon you've got a bit of a story there too right i'm busy that day thank you for having me one day mate all the best day cheers

Channel: Smoko Podcast

Views: 4,404

Rating: 4.8048782 out of 5

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Id: yTYIYFp4k8o

Length: 93min 34sec (5614 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 25 2020