SHOGUN Episode 10 SPOILER REVIEW!! - Breakdown, Ending Explained, Book Comparison | FX

[Music] hello everyone and welcome to this Shogun foiler review here on the outlaw Nation I'm still caught up in the Winds of toranaga uh and we are here to discuss all of it here a dream of a dream I am the outlaw John Roa join as always as I have been on these reviews for the last uh nine weeks because I think it was first two episodes together uh it is my co-host on the ciles and a man who has brought an immeasurable amount of knowledge and entertainment to these reviews because of his James clell knowledge and his knowledge of the Shogun book it is my friend and co-host Steve Morris Steve how are you I am very good I'm I'm I'm a little bit reeling from what we just experienced with our last episode and a way where I'm still trying to figure out all of my feelings about it about the episode about the finale about the finale finale yeah absolutely yeah we're going to get into all of that here uh on this spoiler review again this is a spoiler review so if you have not seen the finale go back and watch it then come and hang out with us and let's and enjoy our conversation about this finale and before I jump into I want to remind you all to please subscribe to the Channel Down Below you know the reason we do all the content here is to keep building the outlaw nation and the way you can help us Build It Is by subscribing down below and hitting that Bell button of course leave your comments as we go along as well hit a like on the video that helps and if you want to share it on your social media to get more people on The Outlaw nation and more people enjoying stepen I's reviews of Shogun and and then by connection to the ciles podcast that would be great so Steve this finale clearly as you said this entire finale felt like they were suffering from the repercussions of episode 9 this episode 10 a dream of a dream basically following everyone's feelings about the death of Maro we see yabu has clearly lost half of his mind Black Thorn feels like a completely changed person from what happened here uh toron naga's plans have come to fruition in a way that none of us maybe saw coming from the beginning Crimson sky was laid out was performed as he said but it wasn't an army it was one woman who went and did that which was an incredible reveal to have we see that the arasmus has been sunk we find out in we think initially that it's been the Christians and Catholics who sank it no it was taga all along and it was part of his convoluted plan to SA save blackthorn's life in order to use him to build fleets for the future War that's coming and then we go to a Flash Forward we're essentially months down the road the uh bloodless War has happened and ishido has been deposed and toranaga is now Shogun uh and all of this begins with a flashback of a flashback or is this the Dream Within A Dream from him recovering from the explosion a lot of questions but overall Steve what were your thoughts on this finale that had almost no action but a lot of philosophical discussions and commentary about looking at the bigger picture as opposed to your own personal Wars your thoughts so I will say you know one of the things that you obviously had me on the show about was to discuss the differences between the book and the show and interestingly enough I think while there are many things that are very different from the book in this final episode ah including one that I obviously owe our audience a large apology about which we'll get to but but but other than that the feeling of it actually really does mirror what happens in the book after maro's death and and it's probably part of why Shogun while I do love it isn't my favorite of the James clell Books because it sort of meanders to an end and then it ends right before the Battle of SEI gahara and we don't actually go to the battle we go you know so there's sort of like we wrap up some loose ends and then it just sort of says in that sort of one italicized paragraphs next month the two armies meet and this is what happens and he becomes gun you know and so it's like so let me stop you there so what you're saying is even in the book there is no war it's just no war there's just a paragraph explaining what happens down the road wow okay which is also how uh King Rat ends with sort of a poetic paragraph like it's a thing clell likes to do so in in that sense it does mirror the book and in that sense I have sort of a similar kind of Unfinished feeling about it you know as I did at this episode so so my reaction to it is there were a couple of scenes that I loved that were really really moving yeah there were several scenes that I went huh what and there definitely was a feeling of sort of you know I wanted more I I really was hoping it was funny last week last week when we were talking about episode 9 you said I mean obviously we're g to have a huge huge battle at the end I can't wait to see that and I'm going like well there isn't one in the book and I kind of hoped the same thing that we would get a big huge battle but we didn't you know yeah yeah I have to say I have to say I I felt this when I said this at the end of and by the way I recorded a reaction for those of you who may want to see that and it will be up the next I think to tomorrow after we drop this review um but I felt this way that I kind of enjoyed the finale because it felt like a very Eastern finale and by that I mean it's a lot of conversation about philosophy a lot of exchange about symbolism a lot we had poetry here the finishing of a poem there's symbolism in that the earthing of a ship from below that has been destroyed the uh putting of ashes and a cross in water to move on the idea of not killing yourself or the idea of being willing to risk your life and sacrifice your life in order to stop an injustice that is happening so there was a lot here that I enjoyed in terms of the back and forth because nine was so and pun intended explosive I felt like 10 although I wanted to see the battle I kind of liked that it kind of move the way it did and you could feel maro's presence throughout the entire episode and it occurred to me that this show turned her into the heart of the show and ironically it is this episode that made it very clear and solidified that Maro was really the star of the show not toon Naga not Blackthorne not even yushik not ashido not lady oiba it was Maro it was everything Maro did and Anna sa's performance I think in retrospect makes this episode works so well because we as an audience fell in love with her as much as Blackthorne buaro Toran Naga to a degree lady oiba and maybe even yabo loved her and certainly the Regents and the council and the people loved her and so I thought that was a fascinating element to have hanging over this particular episode and it felt very much like Game of Thrones in that the ninth episode is always the big episode and the 10th is always the day num ma reaction afterwards the consequences The Fallout all of that stuff and that it felt very similar in this episode but I don't disagree with you I would have liked more a little more of the action a little more of that but uh I can see your point there Steve sorry what you say well I was just gonna say I think I I really agree with what you're saying and I think if in in listing the best things that this show did over the 81 mini series over the book it's her character and the importance of it and I and I totally agree you feel her pre presence throughout this entire episode and I think that is among the most powerful thing that they did making this series yeah well let's swing to taga because really he is the in essence he is the driving force of this episode because we find out Steve throughout this episode how many of this PL these plans were his plan from the beginning the Maro situation is certainly exposed here but he in essence as he tells yush they in a fantastic scene between the two of them old friends having a final conversation how he had pulled off Crimson Sky by using woman instead of an army which I thought was extremely powerful and then yush calls him out and says you know you bend the wind what's it like to bend the wind to your will and he says I simply study the wind which is of course a very smart thing to say when you've manipulated everything to your benefit but he does call him out and saying you know what you have you you're just like us you have this something in that secret heart of yours that you want and so we find out that he also staged the the sinking of the ship with Maro in this plan to save black Thorn's life with the priest father Martine and Tow uh and we find out that he has in essence has set this all up and the death of Maro which he didn't maybe necessar didn't plan for but knew it was a possibility has turned lady oiba against ishido someone who was adamantly against him has now turned uh her against uh ishido and essentially will we will see in the future will stop his uh the heir's Army from joining ishido uh and ashido will be deposed so your thoughts on how toranaga is handled in this episode we see him with the Falcon and all this stuff like what are your feelings about how he went down throughout this entire episode I'm I'm curious to hear you answer that question because of course my feelings are all mixed up by the by the book but but I'll say I'll say first it's it's really hard for me because I like this taga less I think because of the way we see some of his manipulation yeah um in particular things like I'm keeping an Jinan around because he makes me laugh I really didn't like that line I was like dude you just killed your best friend like in two episodes ago Marco just died because of it but you're keeping this guy around because he makes you laugh like I like because in the book they have a real friendship and so he says it's very similar but it's I'm keeping him around because he's I need a friend you know which is a very different thing from he makes me laugh the the the scene with yush and I'm sure we'll talk more about him and his journey but what's it's very different from what's in the book because what's in the book is all tona's internal monologue him think he he reveals in his thoughts but he doesn't tell anybody else any of these thoughts it's just him thinking where he explains yes I burnt the ship and yes I you know I knew that marioo had to do this and yes I'm gonna burn your next ship if I have to and like that's you know you hear it but it's all in his head it's not a scene with yush I love the scene with yush I think it works really well and I think you know his performance in terms of seeing him seeming to be at his low point when he you know orders the death of hiramatsu and then seeing so sick and frail and then we come back to him with that Falcon that he lets go and you see just all the pride and the Brilliance and you see who this guy really is in terms of the great genius I think they do a great job and in terms of someone that I like maybe I like him a little less but maybe that's what we have to do with great Geniuses I mean TOA ISU Tokugawa is one of the great leaders of all time and if you look at guys like Julius Caesar and Napoleon and Tokugawa and Alexander we don't necessarily feel great about them they're different kinds of people and there's a lot of people that die around people like that because they have their Ambitions you know it's a great Point yeah I mean even if you look at something a bit more modern like Churchill right Churchill had a had incredible uh run in the World War II arguably saved Britain from Nazi Takeover in World War II with some of the courageous decisions but yet some of the comments that he made that were racist some of the decisions that he made that were really controversial throughout his career you can argue that Churchill is one of these great men that we also have to kind of come to terms with some of his actions I don't know many great people Steve that don't have actions that we have to come to terms with in retrospect as as the world progresses and as the world changes its opinions on many subjects so that's a great point and it's interesting you say that because I I felt that way in this episode like this was an intentional decision and knowing that H hioki Sonata is an executive producer on this uh particular series and made it very clear in early interviews before the first two episodes screened that um he wanted to be historically accurate and so maybe his approach to this character was one where he wanted to make him a bit distant a bit aloof you could still feel the certainly you felt the emotion when he's letting the falcon go in essence and saying you know like have many daughters I almost feel like he's saying that to the the to the spirit of Mao who is gone now you know you could sense that right so clearly her death has affected he didn't necessarily plan for a death but he knew it was a possibility and now that it's come to pass it has affected him along with hu's death so we see that but he doesn't break right and then we have a moment when him and what do you think about the moment between him and um and uh Anin and Blackthorne when they're going back and forth about Blackthorne wanted to kill himself in order to save the town H and he is about to do it I thought he was going to do it you know I I again I was just like what and he jumps in and it's the most otion and anger we've seen from uh Toto Naga quite some time stops him from doing it and even puts a pat on his shoulder when he says I want you now that you're done with this stuff go build me some fleet go build me a fleet so I can defeat your enemies you know so what about that scene Steve and of course the reveal of the of the Spy that's been there the whole time his Samurai spy so first of all I would like to offer a full apology to our audience I delayed six episodes trying not to spoil a thing just in case they do it at a much later time we finally get to maro's death and I finally revealed blackthorne's attempted sepu that happens way earlier in the book and how it stopped and how this is the transformative moment for his character and I felt totally safe that I had not spoiled anything and 10 minutes into this episode as soon as you see a head in on Jiro the village that we come back to I'm like [ __ ] heading in this direction they're going to use this thing to get to this dramatic moment with his character and I can totally see the writer room where they went okay this is the most dramatic moment in his let's have it at the end of the series as a climactic moment for his character rather than a like end of Act One transformative moment for the character right and so a I feel terrible that I did end up kind of spoiling a thing that was gonna happen B I don't think the setup Works nearly as well because the deaths of the people in in in the setup of the book he has to learn Japanese or they're going to kill everybody all the responsibility is on him got whereas in this version it's well they're trying to find out who you know did the did the ship um who burnt the ship well that's not really on him he you know it's like that's not exactly his thing and why is toranaga killing so many people to find who burnt the ship when he burnt the ship like he knows he did it it's so it's it seems sort of manufactured that being said well and also the difference is that Blackthorn had kind of split with toranaga anded him and then was try to make a deal with yush and so what the Rel what is exactly his relationship to taga at this moment and then and then the moment of him saying I'm your enemy I just told you [ __ ] in order to I I I feel like there is a kind of a political statement trying to be made which is certainly justified in saying that the European countries did in fact go around the world selling [ __ ] to exploit everybody's resources to make lots of money that's a fact that's not and certainly England did that certainly Spain and Portugal did that and I feel like this moment of his character is that is trying to service this idea but I didn't feel I don't know if you felt like that Blackthorne was full of [ __ ] who was just trying didn't care about the Japan and was just trying to exploit them and therefore he's finally confessing that is that something that you felt in his character up to this point no and and it felt a bit in congruent and so I get where you're getting at if we want to go you know Knee Deep on this and and I hear what you're saying and you're right it might have been a modern commentary on um on a situation that in the book was not addressed right and so you see this back and forth with him because have we had enough time to see black Thorns change right in order to see that he wants to do this thing in order to see that he wants to call himself the enemy in order to take responsibility himself for all the white uh or european um uh people who went into these different countries tricked these people uh and uh murdered killed raped looted uh set up their own profit centers at the expense of these people in order to succeed so remember his he's coming from South America which means he did do probably did do some pretty nefarious [ __ ] down there before he got to Japan so he was on that ship that did stuff down there if you follow the course of his ship so what he's saying in that moment is clearly something that if we had seen shades of it uh throughout the show it would have borne more fruit to have him say finally like I'm seeing the error of my ways I'm seeing the error of my people's ways and I'm seeing what I've done therefore I am the enemy I am the where it where it almost felt like in this scene he is saying like kill me for Maro like kill me for her I don't want anymore to die anyone to die at my expense anymore she I feel like I I share a little bit of the guilt of her death I don't want anybody else to die for me anymore I'm tired of it you know as opposed to being like this is something that's been building up to me and building up it within me and I need to say like we were terrible we I want to apologize for everybody who has done this to other countries we must stop and so yeah it's an interesting point it was it didn't feel like it built up to it naturally and it was an interesting commentary to shove in there uh in the middle of this scene well and this is why I just you know the after we get past episode three I just don't understand blackthorn's character I mean that that that whole thing the idea of the guilt of the Europeans certainly deserved I mean we could talk about you know we literally could talk for hours and hours and hours of terrible things that Europeans did in Africa in South America throughout Asia India all of those things yeah but that's not in blackthorne's character I'm not saying that Blackthorne didn't do maybe he did do things I mean you know like we we but but we don't see that we don't see like for instance I think I mentioned there's a scene in where they're trying to get Blackthorne off the galley in the off of the black ship in the book yeah and Maro is translating and the the sailors are just calling the Japanese monkeys and all this terrible horrible awful stuff right yeah well we never see Blackthorne do any Behavior like that at all no we never see him say we never see him say to taga something and then say to himself in English I'm totally going to make money off these idiots right we never see that and if we had seen that then this idea of like he has things to be forgiven for or should die because he's their enemy that would make sense but that that's why like for me shoehorning this attempted sepu into this moment it there's just all these different things happening that don't emotionally have resonance it what I do like which you brought up is the way that toranaga stops him and then just elbows him and puts him on the floor I thought was great I I really like the moment of him saying hey go build me a fleet I think that stuff all works in terms of the resonance you know I have to let go of the book because this isn't the book this is a movie you know this is a series and so you know that doesn't happen that this is this Blackthorn character attempts seu at this moment for this set of reasons and it has this effect on him it's it's a different it's a different moment I would say yeah but you still have to look at the yeah and and but I think you're still right to point out like within the show do they build up to that moment effectively enough and you can make a case that they didn't even though you do at the beginning he says and I can see some people already were probably ready to comment like no in the opening episode he called them Savages and want to do this and they read the logs and all this kind of stuff but Blackthorne never radiated that fully right at the beginning yes you sense that but then he almost quickly changes that scene with him in yush off the water with the sword and him wanted to kill himself because he's going to drown and him saving yushik that immediately makes him heroic so we don't necessarily feel like he's the kind of guy that would have done these things so he's more ashamed by people finding out about it because he might get caught or he might get found out as opposed to being ashamed of having done it right it's not till he sees maybe his old cohorts there in that alley and what they're up to and what they're doing that uh he really um uh grasps some of the stuff that he's done in his past or comes face to face but as you said in the book it's a longer scene so if we'd seen Blackthorne go into that Galley or go into that uh uh place and have that back and forth with all of his former um Shipmates and really have what they've done to the people thrown back in his face at a moment when he's feeling Superior or feeling good about himself that could have been something really effective that would that could have lingered throughout the next couple episodes so that when this moment happens you understand that we've laid the groundwork for him to be able to have that moment of wanting to sacrifice of calling himself the enemy of of basically wanting to commit sepu uh for all the different all the different crimes that Europeans have done to places like Japan and other countries and what have you so there is I think there's a very strong point to be made in what you're saying Steve and I want to jump into the Blackthorn stuff have we anything more on the toranaga anything more here that you want to make sure we hit uh that we didn't quite talk about from this particular finale I do think they definitely deliver on the idea that this guy is a great leader a a leader beyond our ability to even predict or understand that he's so much smarter and so much farther ahead of everybody yeah I think they do a fantastic job establishing that and they certainly end with a shot of him standing there almost like he's already Shogun and then almost like he's part of the land having the land behind him yeah this thing this indomitable thing that will always endure which I think is an effective finale so let's talk about Blackthorn before we take a break let's talk about his progression we see the opening here Steve of some kind of this this reminded me of peard in the um what was it called in Generations when he gets caught up in the the Nexus this is like peard the Nexus having these visions of the future there with his I think his kids but here we have um his grandkids in essence and it's a very wealthy house is this the future of Blackthorn is it not we see him with the cross maro's cross in his hand he seems pretty out of it the kids are the grandkids are talking around him we see the sword the katanas there or the S sorry the samurai swords that are there so we see all of that the helmet uh there so clearly it feels like it might be the future but then we come back to him and he is recovering from the death of Maro he is clearly messed up we see that he might be ambushed in the woods um and father Martin says yes we were GNA Ambush you but Maro lady Maria made a deal to get you out of this situation heads back has the conversation with toranaga has the beautiful conversation with Lady Fuji about not wanting her to go about wanting her to stay and then um has this as I said moment with taga and then comes down there and he is pulling the boat out and buaro comes up and they have uh a nice exchange and then of course earlier Fuji and her on the boat putting the ashers and putting the cross which makes it feel like this was just something that was happening because he was knocked out and having visions before he came too so what do you think about how they handled Blackthorne in this particular episode and the things that happened to him in this episode so just with the sort of Flash Forward dream sequence I found it really confusing I I I so so your your feeling is that it's like a fantasy because we saw him yeah sorry s go yeah just what you're saying he saw we see him drop the cross in the water therefore he can't be an old man holding all that CW yeah it was weird I mean I just because I was like wait but he dropped the he has it in The Flash Forward I don't understand like it was just weird it didn't I don't feel like that added anything to this episode other than a little bit of confusion that that's how I felt maybe an illusion to the future of the character that Blackthorn is based on but not necessarily maybe within the truth of the show so so what have you but the guy who's based on dies in Japan you know right so you know so like yeah it just it just threw me it didn't it didn't and and part of it again goes to this like well if Blackthorne is the main character then this makes sense because he is the central character of the show and so seen where he ends up or something like that makes sense but he's not the main character of this series at all no and so like it it it it gave I don't know that that was just sort of weird I liked him uh giving the blessing over Maro after her death the with I thought that was really good I think the scene with Alo is really good and the moments where he thinks he's going to die I love I love his relationship with Fuji I think I think they really they really nailed it her coming to sit next to him explaining that she has to go and him processing it and understanding and finally saying I think you'll be a great nun totally loved it and my favorite scene in the whole episode is them putting the ashes in the water yeah from I I was I I was very moved I had tears in my eyes I thought I I think for a relationship that we don't spend a ton of time on they nail this relationship it's one of my favorites in the show loved it I I agree with you there are beautiful scenes between them and again whatever is missing from the character is not the work of Cosmo Jarvis uh he is I think he invests in this character strongly and effectively and it's in the silences in the nonverbal moments that he is carrying the weight of his work and I've mean that as an like the um relationships that he has invested in as an actor with these characters is there in his eyes is there in his nonverbal Expressions is there and the tears that well up in certain moments throughout this finale and I thought that was really powerful the stuff with Fuji I thought was the the as you said the scene there in the house but then later in the boat because she doesn't know what she's going to do with her husband and her son she doesn't know what to do as supposed to bury the temple but him saying like well let me do this one thing for you the ashes they will become part of the sea which will be larger and endure forever it'll always be here so your love and your devotion for your husband and your son they will always be a part of Japan they will always be part of this area so this is a way of keeping them um still a part of the soul of the nation as opposed to just put away in a gra in a tomb or in a in a mausoleum so I think there's there's an effective power in that and her helping him and I that I love that line where she said let your hands be the last hands that hold her I mean I get emotional here hearing that or when she said it and then he lets the cross go but yeah but I hear you like it's weird that he's in this Nexus thing at the beginning and then you're like what does it mean what is the point of this and so it is an interesting thing was it just to Swerve the audience what was the goal in all of this or is it just him just getting hit in the head so he's having these visions and and what have you but yeah but go Ahad sorry Sor uh one thing about the the scene the funeral scene on the boat I wish he had said the prayer for the dead that they say when they can I thereby commit you to the Deep because you know that's a thing he said many many times on this journey and I would have loved to have had him say this thing in English yeah that means something to him and have her not understand what he's saying but be moved by it anyway I think that could have been a great moment I want to talk a little bit about is so I I I think there is a to use your word a Nexus between the performer the director and the editor okay and I do think the three of them got some things wrong and I can't pinpoint exactly where it is it's in the three of them and in particular it has to do with how much does Blackthorne know how much does he understand of what's going on and how much does he not and there's a lot of shots of Cosmo Jarvis where there's important things going on where he's doing he does a weird little head sort of bouncy thing yeah and where it goes like I don't think he has any idea what's going on around him and I think through and part of a big part of that is just which reaction shot do you pick if you pick a Rea if someone says something important and you pick a re action shot of Blackthorne going and looking yes well then you go oh he understood what was just said there he's concerned if you pick a shot of him going like that well then he doesn't know what's going on and there were way too many shots of him not knowing what's going on and this could be it's funny it's the weirdest analogy in the world but I remember when we did Big Labowski on the ciles years ago one of the things that Jeff Bridges asked the con Brothers before every shot every scene was how much weed has the dude smoked before scene and there and that would help him figure out where he was as he entered the scene well well Cosmo Jarvis should have gone up to the director or the director should have gone up to him and specified exactly what you understand about what's going on which words you catch which moments you understand which things you see and perceive so that when you cut to him you get it you either he either does understand or he doesn't understand or he's trying to figure it out he's concerned he's Ang exactly all of those things and that's what was not in the character and it was not in the character for most of the series interesting okay all right that's a fair point I wonder if in a rewatch you you might see more connective tissues or you might be more clear you might be even more clear on your stance or even more defined on your stance uh on that so yeah I can absolutely see that you know there I do feel like I wanted more from Blackthorne in this series and I I've come around on that in the last three weeks in our in our reviews Steve like I wanted more from him he seems to be be a passer by or someone in the stands to everything that's going on and would have liked to see him invest a bit more as a character or the writing to have him invest a bit more in what's going on um I do love his scream when he finds maro's body it's just a it's a short burst but the burst is believable it's not overdone overextended it's a guy who's seen death is for many as you said many times in the sea and in other places probably so this one exclaim of anger and pain feels the void there with the death of Maro I thought maybe they'd give her a line or two before she passed away but clearly they're like nope she's gone deal with it that's how we're GNA go all on with it well let's take quick take a quick break Steve and when we come back we'll talk about a couple other story lines here uh in this finale right after this all right let's uh let's go back into this thing here let's have this conversation Steve about yush what about yush of your thoughts here on what they did with him how he progressed throughout this series and where what happened in this particular finale we see him completely losing his mind uh from what happened there with Maro then we see him uh uh playing is he playing stupid is does he have hearing issues is he trying to catch fake catfish so he doesn't have to be ishido spy anymore but then later on the boat when he's there with uh with Blackthorn he takes his clothes off and says teach me how to dive take me to England I don't want want to be here anymore clearly affected and then when they land on on uh on the um at the at the at the city there or the town there at the Village Omi takes his sword they go up to toranaga he basically admits that he was part of it after he was found out about you know with the lady in waiting who had the letter there uh try asks to die uh by different ways by a dog ripping him to shreds or something but then doraga commands that he do sepu he wants blackl to be a second uh taga says no T and he says will you do it and taga says yes uh and then we cut to later on to him having this interaction with Omi and giving you know saying that I know you're going to carry the name forward and then we have the last will which is a great little moment which he wrote himself which he had not done the entire series which was great so it's much to the surprise of his second and then this beautiful scene between him and toranaga that ends up leading to his quick sepu and uh a smile between them before he is beheaded by taga so what did you think of yush in this particular episode and and how he progressed throughout his story to his finale can I ask your feelings first because this is one where I'm definitely infected by different things that are in the book so let me ask so I want to ask you okay is he is he really going nuts or is this a ruse in order to get something that he wants well I do want to say a general overall comment and that is T tadanobu asano who plays yush CH the fact that you can't tell or you don't understand or you don't know or you're in a state of like is it real is it not real that's due to his incredible performance I mean he took a guy who you should by All rights and all accounts you should not like this guy he made him extremely Charming he even all the way to the end you you felt sympathy for him because of his pain over the death of Maro and him clearly he was asking for forgiveness and that's what exposed him that's like the first thing we see of him in this particular finale uh and you're like well is he losing his mind he talks about how you know he confronts ishido and says hey you I thought she was just going to be captured and ishido lies to him about oh yeah but she resisted so she had you know this kind of stuff and so I I think I I I can't tell and to be honest with you I can't tell if it was put on or not but I wouldn't put it past yush to play this for isido to play this for Blackthorne so that he get out of it because he seemed pretty with it when toranaga calls him out and he was pretty with it when he surrendered the will and that final poem or letter there to Omi and it was pretty with it in the conversation with toranaga there on the cliff so I would say that once again it was maybe a slight final manipulation to hopefully get him out of the situation and get him to England and away from the punishment but once he realized the punishment and consequences were coming he kind of sank into it settled into it and made made his peace with it so I even felt sad that he had to die because I liked his character so much but you know that's my feelings on overall what about you so I love the actor I've loved him from the beginning of this show I love I've always loved the character and I think you know we talked about it many times in the ciles that it exposes this thing of like we don't like characters in movies because they're good right we like characters in movies or shows because they're interesting 100% this guy is super interesting I was very confused by the crazy act not because I put it past the character to totally act crazy in order to get what he wants I just didn't understand what it was going to get him you know what I mean it just was like sort of I don't care and it is very different from the book in the book he doesn't have any regrets he doesn't say forgive me to Maro he's really yeah he's a b y the character of yabu which is his name in the book yeah is a [ __ ] bastard and that's why I like him he doesn't there isn't like any soft underbelly to him he is who he is you like him in the book the way he's constructed love him one of my favorite characters and this guy's performance of the guy I adore so I he in in some ways he might be the best realization Maro too actually there are a bunch of them because taga is great too so so but but like so what happens in the book and it's interesting because you have to do things a different way in order to set up what you want and so as I said toranaga just internal monologues all the information that he ends up giving to to yush at the sepu scene so if you want to have that happen you can't do exactly what's in the book because taga is not at Yabo's uh uh sepu in the book Omi is his second and so and what happens in the book because we've heard uh yabu in the book say over and over again his obsession with death oh maybe I'm gonna die today all right or maybe I'm gonna die tomorrow what would be like to die like this he is obsessed with death and so he shows up totally calm there's no acting crazy thing and he is acting supremely confident until he gets confronted with witnesses that saw him betray everyone and let the ninjas in and he goes uh I guess I'm screwed and taga says so I want you to go commit seacu by tomorrow and he goes why don't I do it right now and he goes okay and it goes out and he looks up at and he totally blustering and looks up at OMI hand gives him his uh death poem which I'll tell you in a second which is not what's in the movie because I love his death poem in the book okay and says hey make sure you wait for all three cut which means I'm going to cut across my belly back and then up and only then do you cut my head off because that's how much of a badass this character is his death poem which I love is what are clouds but an excuse for the sky what is life but an escape from Death wow and then the scene Cuts away and Omi comes back to taga and says how did he do and omi's like it was the greatest bravest seacu I've ever seen in my life Wow you know and so it's like and what I L about that setup is like this guy's total bastard and yet you have to admire him at the end because of his style and the way that he does this thing but because the show goes and this is the this is the challenge of screenwriting yeah is the show goes I need to get this tonoga information out which means he has to say it to somebody right at the brilliant conclusion they come to the only person he can say all of his Ambitions to is the guy that's about to die and I think that is brilliant and that means you can't have this other stuff yeah you know like a reverse Bond situation Steve where the villain information of bond but Bond lives this time for sure he's going to die Yash yeah yeah so so it's it's different but I did like what was in the show yeah I I liked it too and and the more I think about your question about whether he played it crazy or not I don't know if we need to call uh land on a definitive thing because it's trauma it's PTSD who knows what he was seeing who knows how it affected him initially and maybe he got levelheaded as he got close closer to where they would get to the Village to ISU there and figured it and just kind of kind of got leveled finally leveled out right and and was able to communicate because we even see Blackthorne like lost in moments of of um uh retrospection introspection rather lost in moments reflecting back on things so he's clearly recovering from the trauma of death of Maro as well so maybe the initial stuff is accurate because he's got PTSD and drama and maybe it's because he doesn't want to be in service of ishido anymore and so playing the crazy person means ishido won't make him the Spy because he can't trust him so maybe that's his intention if you were gonna go that route and try to explain why he would do that but it wouldn't explain why he would do that to uh Blackthorn on the ship because if you're trying to get him to take you to England being crazy is not how you get Blackthorne to take you to England um but I did love the change in the relationship where it is yabu who is like trying to give himself over to Blackthorne to take him to that those that land of of um of what do they call them Savages or whatever whatever you call them barbarians that land of Barbarians there in England so um but yeah and maybe they changed jabush shik's character because they wanted a little comic relief throughout in certain moments even though I wouldn't say he was like a jokester but certainly having those moments uh there I wonder if maybe that was on purpose because yabu as you said is such a hardcore guy um maybe they felt it wasn't that and and maybe it's a lady MC Beth moment too where him going for the catfish you know out damn spot I can't maybe there's a feeling of guilt with all of that as well I I wish I the thing that makes the most sense to me but it doesn't make sense with the stuff with Blackthorn on the galley is oh crap I just realized that I sided with the wrong side by betraying Maro and going to aido I think toranaga does have a plan I got to get back to his side yeah if that but and I think that makes sense but it doesn't quite make sense with all the behavior yeah yeah good point because he could have been like well I see this the this is the smarter move yush is like tessio in The Godfather he's always G to make the smarter move but eventually just like tessio he ends up dead by the end of the movie spoiler for a movie that's that many decades old what are your feelings on Father Martin I mean I said this in my reaction that I felt like one of the drawbacks from the show is that I wanted more of him throughout the show more of his presence more interactions more scenes I don't know if there are more scenes in the book with him but I liked what we got even in this finale the back forth with him and Blackthorn their shared love of Maro being the thing that connects them and him saying like oh maybe one day we'll be able to be friends in the future but uh Blackthorn calling him out saying like oh yeah right all these isms of religion will somehow be able to be you know put down so we can all unite and so it's a bit of a slight commentary on tribalism even within a religious uh in a religious construct that I thought was really interesting but at the end but his final scene there saying that it was lady Maria who essentially bargained for blackthorne's life and he is by doing what he's done to allow Blackthorne to leave he has ended his service to Lady Maro and honored her service to the Catholic church so did you like him in this and and and um did you think do you feel like I feel that we didn't get enough of him in the series the answer is yes to both questions I've liked him throughout the whole series and yes I didn't feel like we got enough I think you know what's interesting I think the Game of Thrones comparison makes a lot of sense uh which is interesting for a novel That predates Game of Thrones by you know 20 years right but like I think in Game of Thrones there is a sense that there are a couple of good people and there are a bunch of bad people and we're hoping that the good people end up on top but there isn't so much a debate of um philosophies I would say Game of Thrones like you don't go this you know that the the Starks care about this and these people care about this whereas in in Shogun there is a debate of philosophies there is definitely when you hear blackthorne's internal thoughts he thinks that what England has discovered in terms of trade and business and this is a total James clell thing because James clell by the way he's a big fan of Ein Rand yeah so uh you know so he is very much into capitalism and business and black Thorn's agenda is everybody gets does better with trade that's his agenda whereas if you're in uh father Al Vito's head he loves the Catholic Church yeah and loves the Jesuits and believes they're bringing not not only are they bringing word of God which will save millions of souls but they're also bringing the wisdom of the Jesuits and education and all those things when you meet The Franciscan monk he cares about The Franciscan things the J Japanese care about each of their things and their culture and so you're feeling that debate of which of these cultures is right or which is right about which things and what are the blind spots of each of these cultures as you go because that's what's happening within the book but I don't think that's happening as much within this show because we don't have time to engage on those issues yeah you know we don't so so I do think there was more to be dug into but I also go like you got 10 hours this is you know that would be a real hard digression to get into the politics of the Catholic church and the Jesuit movement and different people with it because the other thing is within all of these there are good guys and bad guys so the the father visitor or whatever his boss is total jerk right you know so and and alvino knows that he's not a good guy and still trying to do good in how he sees what doing good is right in Japan you know yeah he never radiated an evil car right it was his boss who was and and that ship's Captain the black ship's Captain as well so yeah um two more things let me ask you about lady oa's situation here did you like the scenes of her with with the air finishing off um maro's poem and the symbolism of that and then her interactions there with the Council of Regents and ishido um and if you want to throw in aido what what are your thoughts on all of the stuff it went down here in the finale did you like the way it laid itself out in the way that ishido in essence gets outflanked by taga even though he's the one at that meeting with the region where he says like taga is trying to divide us I'm very clear about what's happening I know what's happening here we're going to war um it seems like a futile attempt to try to stop this and then the earthquake happens which makes them all start to question whether they should go to war because as we find out later from yush the Tao changed his Minds after after about going to war in his past after an earthquake happened so what do you think of how Lady oiba and the and the council here and ishido uh were laid out here in this finale so first of all every time you and I are trying to make serious decisions decisions about the copil and an earthquake hits I always change my mind true you know when the gods say something about your podcast you have to listen that's the first thing I think this is so much better done in the show than in the book in terms of OA because when you're in that scene with the council and this is exactly what I mean about the director the actor and the editor okay all you're doing is cutting her reaction shots yes and her reaction shots are telling you she's not with this she is not feeling good about this she's realizing she backed the wrong horse she's realizing that the only thing that that the only thing ishido really has is her son's banners right and if he doesn't have that he's gonna lose and that you that she is essentially back the wrong horse and I think all of that storytelling has done really really well culminating of course with her finishing the po poem with her son and our real ation of like oh this is the final nail in ashido's coffin I think that's all done really really well okay uh I I agree I I think it's done really well and I thought the performance because I thought initially of course Steve that I thought well she was going to come in and all hell was going to break loose and she was going to be defiant all the way to the end but she's a political animal and clearly you can see that and initially you may have thought that but as the as we see the Maro influence once again the Maro influence here affecting her she's the one that says when one of the Lord says I think the Lord with Leprosy says like she deserves a Christian burial is ishido initially goes h no you know what she chose her path and we'll get to it but not right now and she's the one that says oiba is who says like no she will get all what she deserves the respectful burial that she deserves so in essence countering him even though she had said in the last episode when she flipped that fan open that you know uh don't seek my counselor I don't you know I'm just giving my opinion I'm not trying to influence anybody so very clearly the way she played it now about the final scene here with buaro and um Blackthorne what did you think of that back and forth and non-verbal back and forth between them and the moment was that once again yet another aspect of the love of Maro bringing these two men who would never probably normally be friends in life finding some kind of Common Ground I I think I liked it I think I liked it it was a little odd there was certainly a mo I think the actor playing buaro looked wrecked he did a great he done a great job yeah the whole series and I think that moment I would have exended that moment of tension when they're just looking at each other even more because it could be that buar is just going to cut his head off right then you know but I actually think I think it worked really well in symbolically having him help raise the ship you know that's how you operate in film a lot as you operate in symbols you know you don't because it isn't in general great for to have people just Express hey you know dude I was wrong about you that's all right man we both love the same woman I guess we know we can be friends now like that would be a Terri terrible terrible scene don't talk like that first of all you don't people expressing exactly how they feel at important moments of their life is generally not dramatic and not good screenwriting good screenwriting is to operate in symbols you know and this symbol of them working together at this moment I think worked pretty well and I think the addition of the um Samurai who' been a spy who speaks Portuguese although in our show he speaks English I think that gives us a sense going forward Oh Black is going to be okay because he's has another Ally who can translate and that's going to help him stay connected to the world I think all that's handled pretty well yeah a samurai Ally which is a good Ally to have and you're right the symbolism of unearthing the ship that was initially coming to the shores to um uh to essentially pillage Japan is now going no they were coming to the shore to trade they were not coming to the shore to pillage no they were that is all right all right if you say so uh I I don't trust any Europeans coming to foreign CH any would pill one of the things and this is big in the book is that is that when the Portuguese showed up and the Spanish showed up they thought they were going to do what they've done everywhere else which is pillage which is take over the countries install you know rulers and then take all of their resources right and they realized they couldn't do that in Japan just there's just no way they could do that which is why we have the situation that they have and and and again it's it's the book but all Blackthorne wants to do is trade that's all he talks about you know fair enough I'll knock down Europeans for what they did other countries as much as you will I'm telling you what's in this story I'm just saying the logs were telling a different story and he didn't want that stuff to come out so clearly they have pillaged in the past on that ship which so I was just basically saying that the symbolism of the arasmus being um being brought back out of the water and repurposed as something positive to help fight to help uh keep peace uh there in Japan instead of being used to trade and maybe Hoodwink the Japanese I thought was a nice bit of symbolism as well um overall what let's wrap up our our discussion because we're at 50 minutes already which is pretty surprising but that's how much how enjoyable this conversation is and this show has been Steve your overall thoughts here and if there's anything more I you need to add or you want to add from the finale your overall thoughts on this season of Shogun and do you think we might have a season two your thoughts that's my first overall thought is if you would ask me when we started I would say this is going to be a miniseries just like it was back in the early 80s the book ends at this the book ends exactly the way this this series ended and so therefore that is the end and my experience at the end of this is I want season two like okay I feel like we have plenty of great characters still around we have lots of conflict we haven't gotten to the Battle of SEI gahara yet and SEI gahara is like there's still tons of drama in the early 1600s in Japan and obviously but this character you know the real life character that Blackthorne is based on lived until 1620 in Japan and did a whole bunch of stuff and so like I think first of all my first thought is yeah I would like season two I think it's a great idea and I think the show has been so successful I am sure that meeting is happening right now in some office somewhere about how are they going to get a season two my biggest criticism of the show as everyone watching this is knows and is sick of hearing is the character of Blackthorne I'm not going to go back into it again but my admiration for the show is the other side which is that what they really did was flesh out and focus on all of these characters in medieval Japan and really showed how interesting important Mackie ellian brilliant thoughtful courageous and filled with a sense of Duty and within this culture and it was really profound it's beautifully shot it's beautifully made I think while I have objections to things that mostly come from my knowledge of the book had I not read the book I would have absolutely loved this thing top to bottom and I probably would have if I if this had come out like I read Shogun when I was 16 or something well if this had come out when I was 16 I would have been obsessed with Japan in the same way I became obsessed with Japan from reading this book and watching the miniseries back in the 80s so yeah so I I really really enjoyed doing this yeah and I appreciate you coming along on this trip Steve I didn't know where it was going to take us where it was going to lead or if we would even do more reviews after the first two but this show has been was so effective it was so excellent that I was very happy to come uh back every week to have this conversation with you because I always enjoy hearing your points of views on things you're very knowledgeable and learned points points of views there from both the James cal book and also your ability to analyze the stuff which is why we do the ciles it's been such a wonderful show for the last few years and I really enjoyed T talking about this with you and I enjoyed this season I loved this season you know I am a japany I love Japan love everything about the samurai love everything about feudal Japan I try to watch as much as I can about that stuff you know there's a great Netflix series the age of Samurai that was on that I rewatched again a couple of weeks ago on a Saturday just to kind of get back into that mood because of Shogun and the reason I love the Akira kurasawa films I love these other Samurai films that have come through that tashir muun was a part of and other people were a part of I just love that time I love the nobility of that time I love the era to have a Game of Thrones type story being told within that era I thought and as as Steve correctly pointed out Game of Thrones is after James clell's Shogun so maybe Game of Thrones influenced by James clell's Shogun but either way the fact that we had that energy coming through a story like this I thought was such a fantastic thing to experience week to week incredible performances great Direction Frederick eio toy directed this one phenomenal writing Megan hang wrote this one um and yeah having all of that throughout the cinematography the opening theme the opening Montage all this stuff throughout and the way they made me care about these characters and took and gave me a bloodless finale that I was 100% riveted by all the way to the end I think speaks volumes of the expertise that was involved in creating this show and uh Anna saai deserves an incredible amount of credit for creating a character so resonant that her she hung over everything in that finale and wasn't even in it beyond the opening um uh moment and flashback an occasional flashback there and Montage I thought it was incredible what was done here and yes like you I want to see a season two there's so much more to explore here and especially because taga says maybe someday I'll tell Blackthorn the truth that's a dramatic moment right there from a future episode that you can explore was I manipulated by tonoga have I been manipulated the whole time how do I feel about that so there's something to explore there certainly tension that still will erupt and the back and forth and all these great characters and actors so 100% I would love it to be back I am nervous because once the Game of Thrones Ben off and wise people went off the novels that last season and a half was not that great so I wonder if they can create a season that is on the level of James clavell's Source novel there for Shogun and uh and be every bit as effective as season one was but either way I'd be willing to find out one way or another so I hope at some point down the road they do that so um all right well there you go that's our spoiler review for the finale of Shogun thanks to everybody who has joined us every week for these finale for these reviews even if you're joining us for the first time go back and rewatch all our uh reviews of the previous episodes lot of fun discussing this stuff for sure Steve thanks again for joining me on this trip and please let people know where they can find you and find our wonderful podcast well they can find me at Sr Morris on Twitter and the copil C n-f podcast has been breaking down great films for dude almost nine years nine years yeah um that's just crazy that we've been doing this that long and the uh we just finished our season of scorsi where we did good Fellas Raging Bull and Last Temptation Of Christ this coming week we're doing a live show on baseball movies that'll be on the ciles YouTube channel and next after that we're jumping into what is in my top three Marvel movies which is Captain America the Winter Soldier so lots of exciting things going on on the ciles yeah that might be my favorite MCU movie so yeah I can't wait to dive into that and have some fun discussing that with you as well Steve ask me you can follow me at the Roa say on Twitter Instagram and Tik Tok The Outlaw Nation on Twitch please remember to subscribe to the channel you know we're marching towards 50,000 subscribers help us get there as quickly as possible hit that subscribe button hit that Bell button so as you we're dropping all the content we do here on the outlaw Nation the shows the reviews the reactions all of it is here for you all and if you want to join the patreon to financially support us and everything we're doing here on the outlaw Nation Channel head on over to patreon.com johnroa say all right one last thank you to everyone who's joined us every week hope you enjoyed this finale spoiler review let us know your comments down below hit a like on this video and we'll talk to you next time with another brand new review or reaction video here here on the outlaw Nation take care peace until then [Music]

Channel: John Rocha

Views: 6,875

Keywords: shogun review, shogun episode 10, shogun fx, shogun episode 10 explained, shogun finale, shogun explained, shogun fx review, shogun episode 10 ending explained, shogun episode 10 review, shogun episode 10 reaction, shogun tv series review, shogun episode 10 breakdown, shogun episode 10 ending, shogun fx reaction, shogun finale review, shogun finale reaction, shogun finale explained, shogun review 2024, john rocha, steve morris, the outlaw nation, shogun ending explained

Id: DmXSpWGBMts

Length: 57min 7sec (3427 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 23 2024