Sexual by Design Q&A | Doug Wilson

all right so here's how our q a is going to work um the mics are going to be at the end of the stairways you need to come down to the mic and get in line there's one question you ask your question then you move to the back of the line all right [Music] not only does it say that homosexuality is wrong hold on for a second hold on for a second let's get you a mic thank you in leviticus not only does it say that homosexuality is wrong and you in your works you've said that homosexuals deserve to die or be exiled so what do you say to those people who are wearing polyester with two blended fabrics those who plant two different kinds of seeds in the same field or those who breed the two different kinds of the same animal do they deserve to die as all well all right okay uh let me let me divide that into two uh sections and respond accordingly number one it is true that the bible teaches that um sinners are worthy of death but it says the uh god says in the garden of eden this the day you eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden you shall surely die in ezekiel it says the soul that sins shall die it says in romans the wages of sin is death that's exactly true the only thing i would differ with in your first description is i i don't want to indicate in any way that i think that being worthy of death in this way is in any way unique to homosexuals i believe i deserve to die for my sins right so all the sentence of death rests on the whole human race for this condition of sinful sinfulness and also for particular sins of which homosexuality is one heterosexual sin is another and so on so that's the first part the second part of your question is in in the old testament there are three kinds of laws there's moral law there's judicial law and there's ceremonial law the ceremonial law would be something like in a like an um in a in a modern wedding ceremony when a bride and groom put the ring on at a particular time in the ceremony that's a particular ceremony that we have that is stating certain things god required of the jews in the old testament that it's the book of ephesians calls it ordinances contained within the commandments it's a holiness code so he's teaching them this not that so unclean foods you're not to eat this you're you may eat that and the new testament tells us very expressly that this holy holiness code is not erased as though it was a bad idea but it's fulfilled in christ which is why the ceremonial law of the old testament is not binding on christians today but the moral law is so we should we should alternate aisles right hey uh so i've sat very quietly trying to understand your viewpoint i know you come from a religious viewpoint it's it's based in religion so i want you to try to understand this viewpoint which is not based on religion at all okay thank you um is there an issue if there are people that love each other and they choose to express their love in a way that does not harm anyone nor does it harm themselves and it's just purely love is there a problem with that state stated that way no what if that's the fact but are you are you including sexual expression of love or are you just talking about loving each other i think we should all love each other yeah including sexual expression of love too if it doesn't hurt anyone else and it doesn't hurt you and it's purely love is why is there an issue with that okay first if that were the case i i would agree with you that why is that not the case though because okay i feel like that's probably where we're yeah the place where we're the place where this is hitching up is in that phrase provided it's not hurting anybody else yeah okay in other words we we believe we we believe that god tells us that these things are destructive these patterns of these patterns of behavior are destructive and they're and they don't say we because that includes me but are you i'm sorry okay sir can you ask what i'm saying we here i'm not saying we here in this room i'm saying uh we christians i'm trying to i'm speaking on behalf of christians if we could go to the next next question yes so so i have i have kind of a softball for you this isn't okay please okay i'd like to i'd like to hear the gentleman's question so so i'm an english student i i study language i study text i i want to know why i guess people in general because i didn't really listen to much of what you had to say because i don't really believe that the bible is the word of god should i listen to what should i listen to your questions carefully um well sir i'm asking you i'm asking you about the root of your face you know should i listen to your question should should i listen to your would you like me to listen to your question as carefully as you listen to my talk well because i'm directing it specifically you yes i would okay okay okay okay i'll bite okay so uh so i'm i'm like in thinking of the bible as a text which christians do as well uh what justification do you have for believing in that as opposed to any other spiritual text or any other text okay good um the question if you didn't hear it was what basis do i have for believing in the bible as opposed to other spiritual texts other sacred texts that um that have spiritual authority in the lives of others there are two there are two responses one has to do with my experience personally and the other is more abstract how i would answer that uh generally my personal experience i grew up in a christian home but i knew that i couldn't just receive whatever my parents had taught me as i left i i joined the navy i knew i was going to have to be a christian on my own two feet because they weren't going to try and help me to live the christian life out there and i also uh gave myself to i've read a number of these other texts evaluating giving you know reading the rigveda and the bhagavad-gita and the quran a couple of times and i've sort of i've given i've read through these other texts wanting to listen to them and give them a fair shake i wanted to read them and not just say oh no no it differs with my my convictions now i believe that god speaks authoritatively in the world and i believe that when he does so we can we have the capacity to recognize that so god speaks and and the judgment the the conviction that i've come to is that the bible speaks has sort of a self-authenticating power in the message that i just find compelling so i believe that this is the word of god and i don't believe that without having looked at the other contenders yes all right i can assure you that i listened very thoroughly okay thank you please reciprocate um i was very curious about i think it was directed towards trans people in terms of people who do not have the ability to be reborn when in fact abraham and sarai were abram and sarah i mean originally they were different people and also i think you may want to double check the definition of bisexuality because by your definition then abraham sarah and haggai were all bisexuals which i don't think it said anywhere that they were a bisexual someone who doesn't necessarily want a polyamorous relationship you just may want to something like that um let me start with that [Music] the point i was making there with the with the multiple more than two was that if if a man or a woman says i am interested in sexual sexually expressing myself with a man and with a woman and i would like that sexuality to be acknowledged by law i would like i would like a constitutional provision i'd like a legal protection for that what i'm saying is that i'm saying that that involves of necessity at least three people okay so um [Applause] so that was the that was the point the point was not that everyone who calls himself bisexual or herself bisexual will want to do that or would pursue that is just saying that there's no reason for saying no if someone says no i'm i'm bisexual i want to be married to a man and to a woman and that's what i want to do and if you don't let me and if you don't like me what's with all the hate man yes yes sir okay so first off um i'm openly gay and a christian so um um you had mentioned in the very end of your lecture that uh receiving the death of jesus as fact is that what saves a person is that what you're trying to get across yes the gospel the gospel is believing in the death burial and resurrection of jesus for our sins not just believing that as a historical fact that he died but believing in and trusting in the death of jesus that's what makes someone a christian yes yes uh howdy um thanks for coming and sharing your ideas thank you for listening and i appreciate the fact that you're saying that according to a view christianity we're all sinners we're all in this together sort of thing we're all out of time but as per his last question my question is um christ died right right so he's dead now no he rose he was he was dead he was dead for three days okay and this is what i want to this is my question so as per my forgiveness my sins what did he lose again by going to heaven and ruling over the universe i mean where is the sacrifice is what i want to know so that's my question okay um jesus the sacrifice was he had he had eternal unbroken fellowship with god the father he prayed in the garden if there's any way to save these people without me going to the cross let's do it that way he he cries out in despair on the cross my god my god why have you forsaken me that's that's the penalty that's where he bore the sin was on the cross but we've all doubted so every time that i like i'm afraid i'm gonna die have i born all of mankind's sins i mean i feel it on your shoulders but where's the sacrifice right where's the sacrifice he's the rule of the universe thank you for sharing and i'll just leave that there let me just say one thing about philippians it says that jesus humbled himself was obedient to death even death on the cross therefore god has highly exalted him and given the name that is above every name so so christ bore the sin of the world during that time on the cross and the bible tells us that it was horrific so we're all sinned free now that's that's a week from saturday april 28th 10 a.m in indianapolis at the state house i didn't know if you knew about this there's going to be a rally called we are women to defend women's rights to answer the attacks on reproductive rights especially abortion rights and birth the right to birth control that have been going on and in case anybody here doesn't know about it and wants to fight back against that attack i urge you to join us that's on the 28th in indianapolis so my question is the organizers of the rally say the following all americans have the right to make decisions about their own bodies including the right to contraception without interference from the government business or religious institutions do you agree with that yes actually um but let me you're expecting the butt i believe that i believe there ought to be no legal restriction at all on what a woman does with her own body if she decides that she wants to chop off this finger i don't think there ought to be a law against it if she wants to chop off all our fingers i don't think there should be a law against it but why do we not have to make a law against it well we don't the reason that's not a pressing social issue is precisely because her fingers are her body right she takes she takes care of that which is her body the issue in the whole abortion rights thing and this goes back to my first point in my first talk and i hope you can see how your religious presuppositions define everything because if you are approaching this from a christian vantage point reproductive rights is code word for my body and my child and i can take my child's life if i want and no one can tell me that i can't so if you believe as i do that there's more people involved than just the woman there's right there's more people involved than just a woman it's not a private issue if it were purely a private issue and in other words i i don't believe uh take something that we would agree is a private issue um uh other forms of contraception that are not a board of fashions for example i think that's a private issue and i think the government should stay the heck out yes hi uh we're here from first united church here in bloomington which is an open affirming church i'm sorry it's called an open open and affirming church okay um and it works wonderfully there and um i have a question for you but my daughter has a question and i did not give her the question um she's voluntarily coming down and i don't know what she's gonna ask so okay all right um i wanted to know why when you say we and when you're saying that you're talking for all christians why you think you have the right and the privilege of speaking for all christians when that's just your side of the story and and the answer is of course that i agree with you i don't pretend to speak for everyone who calls himself christian who identifies yourselves yeah here's this [Music] [Applause] needlessly provocative but let me try to answer the question as best i can we evangelical bible believing apostles creed affirming christians believe that we have to accept the bible as god gave it to us and we don't have the authority to adulterate it or water it down in in the world today there i i grant you and i'm not trying to pick a fight with people who are um would say you know united christian church or we're you know we call ourselves christian i'm happy to interact with them on that basis but i don't believe that they're sharing the same world view that i do because i believe in the bible from soup to nuts from a to z from alpha to omega and i want to take the bible as written and i don't want to trim and shape the bible for current contemporary in in light of current contemporary world views that come from outside the church so i believe that there's great worldview discrepancies between professing christians everywhere i grant that um and i'm i'm happy to acknowledge it but when i'm talking about we christians i'm talking about people who believe the bible who believe that god has authority over us we don't get to tinker with the gospel we don't get to tinker with the moral law okay yes hi so you uh mentioned multiple times i think that you're you're interested you're not interested in perpetuating your morality through the government but you're interested in perpetuating it through your communities like teaching your children and inspiring the the types of moralities that you want to see in your communities and i don't necessarily draw the same my morality from the same sources you do but that's okay in my opinion because i i think that's a very good way of going about things also but i wanted to bring up the a problem that i see in kind of christian communities and churches and problems when you're when you're raising everybody with the same morality and to think these ways how do you how do you keep them focused on the transformation that you were talking about that's so important and not focusing on we are the in group and they are the out group and that that's what spawns all the hate that we see um i think in both sides of the group and um yeah it's a big problem so how are you the thing i do and thank you um the the thing that i do is uh this might be introducing a whole another thing but uh this is the approach that i take teaching our people i i teach the people that i'm responsible for where i have influence i believe that we have to hammer away at the fundamental difference between sins and crimes just because it's a sin just because i think the bible teaches against it doesn't mean that i believe it ought to be a crime i believe that crimes are defined as a christian i believe that crime should be defined biblically as well but crime is a much smaller set of prohibited behaviors it's a behaviors for which there's a penalty attached so uh theft robbery murder are crimes hatred is a sin and i don't think that hatred ought to be against the law i don't think that lust ought to be against the law i don't think that heart attitudes ought to be against the law and i don't think that external expressions of particular sinful behaviors ought to be against the law either unless the bible tells us that this is really damaging and so on so i if when it comes to public policy issues i am pretty close to a libertarian and um and and i believe and i i believe that coercion by the state is a big deal i believe that we ought not to be coercing anybody with the mechanism and power of the state without compelling reason so i want to minimize crimes i want to keep this the set of crimes to a minimum and then have everything else be the result of gospel preaching bringing up your kids discussion debate and so on yes very few people in the bible are um find the word of god through speaking with with god directly god's word is passed to them okay i'm having trouble hearing your question because there's some information coming from this corner very few people in the bible are able to speak directly to god or god speaks very very infrequently specifically to people right and um what i want to say is that so the love of god is really very much the reformation was all about breaking down those barriers and giving people access to interpreting god in the way that they they see and agree okay so i want to make a statement back to not to keep talking about this church but i do see the love of god in my gay church members all the time in the way that they deal with my kids when they teach them sunday school when they care for the elderly all of these things um i see it all the time and it's it's apparent to me it's not questionable that the love of god is in their heart right and so i want to make that statement first okay okay but but my question my question could i make can i make a counter statement and then go to your question the counter statement is this i'm a pastor of a church also and i live with these families and interact with them and i know how kind and generous and giving and committed they are and i know that they're not filled with hate i know that they're not guilty of hate crimes i know that bumper stickers that say hate is not a family value are not talking about them but they are right so i as a pastor i'm i know that there are people that are commonly called haters who aren't so that's my testimony to set next year's your question okay but my question is more sort of i guess empirical um because in the first talk you you were sort of setting up an argument and you set a premise for that argument by saying that we all can agree that um the world is falling apart around us or something like that and i think that that's a throwaway statement so i think there's a problem with the way that you lay the argument from there and then you talk about post homosexuality being a result of post-modernity and people making their own choices and i wrote it down here but that we're all going down a cliff and that's why homosexuality and alternative lifestyles have emerged but empirically that's just not true homosexuality had pre-exists christianity and organized religion and and homosexuality homosexual behavior is observed in almost every species of living being and so if god's perfect order um stands against that then i'm just wondering how you respond to that no first time surprise surprisingly i would respond to it by largely agreeing with it if you look at if you look at the history of the world through from genesis 3 down to the present homosexuality is the norm it's it's normal it's accepted it's mainstream and i would say that there is one striking judeo-christian exception right there but in terms of how the world generally works i agree with you i think that i think people who pretend people who try to make traditional values arguments are up against it because the facts of history just don't just don't bear them out yes okay i have two questions you kind of need to answer the first one or for me to be able to ask the second one uh you talk about god being love i totally agree with that that's an awesome idea but let me ask you this have you ever been deeply in love with another human being to the point where you go to bed thinking of that person wake up with that person at the back of your head and everything in your day is better and everything in your life is going to be just a little bit better because that person is in your life i'm talking about not just general loving the world thing i'm talking about romantic deep lasting love have you felt that yeah you bet i can also great that's awesome so explain to me explain to me please how this feeling which i expect nobody here will say is wrong in any way how can that not be affirmed by sexuality because you didn't really address sexuality too much i expected from a lecture with that title to have a lot more on sexuality really but i have that feeling right now currently and it's directed to another man and i really want to know why i'm not supposed to express that sexually as well as romantically thank you okay thank you question the question basically is uh boils down to how can it be wrong if it feels so right and i do have that feeling toward my wife what's that that's not the question yes it was um so the the question was do you have this do you have this feeling toward another person yes i do well i have this feeling toward a man not a woman how can i say how can i where do i get off coming to you and saying you can't do that and the and the answer is that god define god defines for christians we believe that we are under god's authority we don't define these things so my feelings which i do experience don't uh don't make it right they're people who've had these soaring emotional commitments but unfortunately it's towards someone who's married to someone else and and you know there there are feelings that will lead you to transgress boundaries i think that we can all agree are boundaries we ought ought not to cross we believe christians we christians who believe the bible believe that god sets the standard for us we believe that we are the ones who are are supposed to submit not the other way around yes ma'am um during the second half of your talk you talked about how women who looked like prostitutes or something like that you could tell by looking at them like they looked like prostitute you know and then when the woman came that was fit for jesus christ himself she was young and beautiful and clean and i think you said smooth or something like that um why do you insist on like perpetuating this sexist image to your followers that like a morally straight woman or a woman fit for you know the likeness of jesus is also a physically beautiful woman um versus like an unclean or you know a morally unstraight woman is definitely ugly okay well i think we may have had a breakdown of communication there because i was trying to express that jesus married a disreputable woman jesus came for a woman who did not have her act together who didn't look good while while we were yet sinners christ died for us i believe that jesus makes us lovely but he didn't marry us because we were lovely so i agree with you there so where did the image of the beautiful woman come from um it's i it may have come from when i was in the book of revelation i said the the new jerusalem is described as the bride of christ descending out of heaven as a bride adorned for her husband but that that woman is replacing the the harlot of earlier in the book of revelation so it's it's a transition from grotesque sinfulness to purity but the purity is the result of god's grace god doesn't bestow his favor on us because we have our act together just the opposite but you just said again a pure woman is a beautiful bride oh yeah i believe in the resurrection when all things are put right i think everything is going to be put right and all things will be lovely including the bride of christ yes hello hi um this is in the second part of your lecture okay um you talked about how a lot of christian women have problems being ashamed with their sexual past yes does that mean that christian men are not ashamed of their sexual past i would say speaking as a pastor they they ought to be more ashamed than they are but generally generally speaking generally speaking just i'm i'm speaking here as a as a pastor who has seen a lot of train wrecks in my office women carry this more deeply and more profoundly and i believe more rightly than the men do men ought um men ought to um men in this respect this is an area where men ought to be more like women [Applause] i really think that this is an area where i think we can agree i believe the bible teaches no double standard [Applause] [Music] i'm a christian and you don't speak for me on anything nothing um they just hate is bad um i think i believe that god created sexuality for us to enjoy and that um god loves expressions of sexuality yeah whether they be straight or gay or bi or queer or whatever and that if you are glbtq um god loves your sexuality and i love you i love you too [Music] my question it relates to the first part of your talk you seem very clear about basing your gender norms on those described in genesis male and female created he them and i'm curious why your ideas about gender are so much based in like the the cultural norms of like a nomadic society from like six ten thousand years ago whatever rather than based on the teachings of jesus who you claim to follow and in the new testament he says you know well not jesus but his followers say there is no longer male or female we are all one in christ jesus so to me that means he's saying there there is no gender god does not see gender and thank you you are quoting galatians chapter three and christ is neither jew or greek slave free male female and that's the apostle paul does teach that the same paul who says husbands love your wives as christ love the church wives submit and honor your husbands he has in ephesians chapter five so in galatians three in ephesians chapter five paul tells us basically gives us two things that if we believe the bible we have to harmonize them we have to we have to reconcile them together and i i take it as not meaning that social relations between the sexes are obliterated by christ yes is that what you're telling us no what i'm saying is that galatians chapter 3 and ephesians 5 were written by the same man over and over if you believe the bible then yes um i'm lance corporal rincon uh [Music] you can call me uh i thought that was a really great meta chronological uh that was a good uh uh exposition exegesis of the entire bible and like you know yeah like a little time to do it but it was good um and then um uh i so i i first found out about this event i i got an email from the black glare graduate student association and i was pissed i was like this like there's this haters coming on campus and like just like something about slavery you're like but like it made it sound like you you thought slayer is good let's go around them uh [ __ ] you weren't like that and i was like right it was okay all right so i'm gonna get my question so so maybe somebody was misrepresenting the nature of the event talking about your looks what happened what happened was i was like okay so i gotta figure out what this i'm not sure i want to go to this event because they're like we are all set in the front row and like start like you know scout them around sir can you put the mic back on the sandpaper oh i'm sorry sue sorry about excuse me that's just low i'm i'm i'm kind of big all right so here's what happened so then um so then i was like so then you you're talking and and you so i saw on the paper that you was you're the submariner so that's why i introduced myself by name and rank and um so then i came i got in line and i was going to ask a question because you asked about you said something about all these problems homosexuality uh bisexuality um and metasexual and i'm like hey what's wrong with that man i like to look nice but i mean maybe maybe you've been someone else yeah well you have a question you have a question question and then so i had to rethink i was like i'm going to scrap the question until i i was in line and i thought i got to get a question what's a good question oh he's a fat oh hey where's to go all right here we go game time i'm about the mic all right so don't ask don't tell just got repealed like um but people forget that it was it was there to protect like the homosexuals or and they saw it like so i'm just curious what is your what is your what is your what is yours what is your i'd like to go i can call the next question dude homosexuals in the military serving the mother okay you just asked what what is my view on serving in the military oh oh don't ask don't tell okay thank you um i believe [Applause] remember what it basically i'm going to tell you what i think about the repeal of don't ask don't tell but please remember in the context of what i want what what i would propose to do about it i don't think that given the religious commitments of america currently that we could keep don't ask don't tell in place i don't think it's possible you're just giving my illustration of you eat on top of the flu you're just giving yourself something to throw up i support don't ask don't tell i think that's a good policy but i think that you can't fix the problem by just reinstituting you know voting in another president who will reinstitute don't ask don't tell that won't that won't work that we have to address it at the fundamental faith commitment level of the people as a whole um but as as don't ask don't tell i think it's a wise way to proceed you read the bible don't you what's that you read the bible don't you i do so you're aware of the story of jonathan and david right i am so i just i just preached through first samuel actually and yeah spent a lot of time on that so i was wondering whenever david says that he loved jonathan more than the love of a woman wouldn't i don't know about you guys that seems kind of gay to me and so david's the beloved of god so wouldn't that mean that wouldn't that go for all homosexuals then okay i was distracted by the lights could you repeat the last part of your question so that seeing as david did marry a woman wouldn't that make him bisexual and if he was beloved of god wouldn't that mean that all gay people are beloved of god too okay david david was david is described as a man after god's own heart but as it describes in second samuel he was also capable of very marked sins like the murder of uriah and the and the adultery with bathsheba so that that's one thing i don't i don't happen to believe that jonathan and david had a homosexual relationship but it's not it's not like it's unthinkable it's not like it couldn't have happened if it happened then i would list it with david's other sins which were significant yes uh before my question i was just wondering uh uh i thought don't ask don't tell is over it's full uh gay on in the military now right yeah the repeal the repeal of it don't ask don't tell was the clinton policy that it was just recently repealed so it's no longer operative right full integration now right in the military when a man and a man marry when a woman and a woman marry when a woman and a man mary if they love each other and are good to each other and commit to each other uh god is with them is that a question no it's god and and this goes back to my this goes back to my fundamental point in the first talk it's very clear that we're serving worshipping different gods yes um yes i was wondering uh in the first part of your sh um whatever this is a show show whatever i'm entertained somehow i don't know why um i was wondering you mentioned something about us having to live up to our um lifestyles that we try to put out for society try to live up to that i'm wondering why aren't you i mean i'm listening to this all i hear is a bunch of just a hypocrite talking because i look through and i look at people like i have two aunts that are gay and they've been together for years like way before i was born and you know they're two of the likes most sweetest people i've ever known you know look at the shirts on your back they'll do anything for anyone and you know and i find it weird that you know first this religion who has such and loving and caring and passionate god for all these beings i destroyed why would he shun them if he created them in that way and you know i just don't i'm not understanding where you're getting off all this hate talk and you know casting judgment on other people because i was pretty sure the bible said you know judge not lest ye be judged and my favorite quote was you know you know let you without sin cast the first stone and you know i'm trying to understand why you're you're just being such a hypocrite because you're you're not talking you know nothing you're saying is connecting and i i just really want to answer and i would like it in the form of logic if that's possible okay um a friend of mine jim jim nance is a friend of mine and he and i co-wrote a logic textbook together so i will do my i will do my best with uh matthew you quoted matthew 7 1 judge not lest you be judged for the judgment with which you judge you shall be judged jesus is not saying don't ever judge he says the judgment that you use is going to be used on you he says don't judge with a double standard in other words i've not said anything i've not said anything here tonight that i'm not fully willing to have applied to me the bible applies to me in the first instance the bible applies to me before i think about anybody else before i think about laws or policy or it applies to me alexander solzhenitsyn said the line between good and evil runs through every human heart and i believe that that includes my human heart and i believe that i am obligated by god to live to live the way i profess to believe you're not gay and and i believe that uh in in our worship service at christchurch in moscow every every week is part of the liturgy we confess our sins and i routinely regularly fall short of the standard that i believe that christians ought to live by and when i do i confess my sins to god i am a sinner okay i'm going to confess a little confusion i'm just wanting you to clarify something i'm not very religious so most of anything that i'm taking from your lecture is verbatim what you're saying you said in the beginning about how it was man and woman and that was god's image and this is why i'm assuming this is your basis to why man and woman is right right and then later you went on to go on about the how the version of women were not virginal but they're still like the holy image that we believe because their sins have been washed away by these acts of piety and whatnot so by christ so if this is true and these women's were technically sinners and but they had their sins washed away then what is the whole point of your lecture if for say if you had a homosexual couple that is technically a sin their sin will still eventually be watched away so what is the point of like if we're all not virgins by virtue if we're all not virgins by birth and we are only virgins after you know we have this and forgiveness for forgiveness then what is the whole point of trying to like push this image of a man and a woman because i assume this is because it's good for god because this is an image but i understand why it's such a good idea to push it and what's the point of pushing it if it's not it doesn't even matter in the end okay thank you um i think that's a very good question and here's how it matters the bible the bible teaches that this message of free forgiveness that's declared to the world is a in four message this message of forgiveness is a message that we declare and the bible teaches that in order to receive it we need to repent and believe and so it's not it's not an automatic thing so it's not like god's forgiveness is just indiscriminately dumped on the world whether they believe in god or not whether they believe in his gospel or not this is a gospel that is declared openly to the world and people come to it one at a time people come to it by households people come to it in different ways and in different in different means and what and if they don't come it matters so i believe we believe that if you don't come to christ then you die outside of christ if you come to christ you die in christ and are raised again and that that difference is the difference between judgment and mercy heaven and hell yes sorry i was distracted uh the gum on the floor was more entertaining um thank you uh first uh i'm the guy who yells harlot uh my name is quinton thompson i go here uh the bloomington high school north um it was really hard following what's what you were saying because there was a lot of going on in the back um i understand that i i you had two points in the first part of your talk in the second part of the talk which kind of um left me with no real answers uh it was really tied into what the last girl said um there was a lot of what you said what god said was good and that even the people on the other side who were not following technically his teachings were also good no no we're they're bad so are we it's not that everybody's good it's everybody's bad so then if everybody that's very inconsistent um inconsistent um it's kind of uh very confusing if everybody's bad then really what's i don't want to say what's the point but yeah what's the point the point is to rescue rescue people from their sins we don't think we need to be rescued well then we have we talk about it what what happened then what's that what happens then if we are if we don't follow into the okay the bible teaches that at the at the end of history there will be a judgment god will come down and sort everything out the bible says that the sheep and the goats are divided but the sheep and goats are not divided as the the sheep are the good ones and the goats of the bad ones the bible says that all of god's people who are saved were saved from their sinfulness so the the bible the bible teaches that all of us are are dead in our trespasses and sins and so the point of the gospel is to bring people out of sin it's it's not to give ourselves awards for being so good okay um you talked about a lot of what was good um as in the things that he created were really good why are we not so good because we don't accept god's offer of christ we don't accept what god offers you but i'm gay if um the lines foreign form for a reason yes sorry i was going to get to the point um i it was really hard following with what you were saying because they were definitely two different points that didn't really match at the end i can you please reiterate what really what are you trying to tell me what what do i need to be doing in order to you need to believe in jesus you need to believe that he died on the cross he bled for you he went into the grave and he rose again from the dead so you could be forgiven and put right with god so then none of my sins matter is what i do so you so your sins could be forgiven and if you on the other side of this grave if you die with christ and are buried with christ and are raised again to new life paul says in romans chapter 6 some people are going to think so why not sin that grace may bound why don't we whoop it up because we've died died in our sins and paul says no that that's inconsistent how can we who died to sin still live in it how come the harlots seem to um do better off in the end they were reap sorry i just gotta go to march okay uh because because they received forgiveness yes all right um so man and woman were created in god's image right like humanity okay so uh man and woman does that mean god was literally intersex or was he just really queer okay [Music] [Applause] no what it means is that when you look at man and woman together everything that is ex exhibited in in the image of god by them together answers to something in god god is spirit it says in john chapter 4 god is spirit and therefore um he he just he's not god the father is not male god the father is masculine he's not a male because he's not he doesn't have a body he's a spirit he's not female because he doesn't have a body he's masculine but femi the bible teaches that femininity and masculinity together all of them answer to something in the triune god the world crea the world reflects the way god is including men and women together yes sir um i have advice and then i have a question advice would be you started out with your argument talking about evolution touched on a little bit and then you go back to religion and through the rest of the speech you relied on religion where the bible but if you mention evolution you discredit your entire argument because you mentioned it evolution denies religion the word of god and you also shouldn't classify yourself like you shouldn't say we christians because many of the christians here don't believe in everything you do so you should use i believe instead just future problem solving and my question is in the argument you said something about it's we shape things that are convenient to us that benefit us but then you seem to imply that you or christians are the correct way to interpret things is that what you're trying to say because if you're not then that means that you also accept that the way you see things are also incorrect and beneficial for you okay um this is gonna i'm gonna ask you to work with me here for a minute but i i want you to understand that i don't believe that i'm always right i believe i always believe i'm right but i don't believe i'm always right everybody should i go over that again i i don't believe i'm always right i believe i've been mistaken many times in my life but i always believe i'm right that's what it means that's what it means to think so everybody everybody does that when if you if you come down to say the problem with your christians is that you always think you're right you're not you're not saying that because you think you're wrong right right everybody thinks they're right that's that's what it means to say something but if uh but i know that i'm mistaken at different at different times then what gives you the power to classify a hierarchy of i'm right and this is wrong because what you interpret from the bible is different from others can interpret so right others can interpret sexuality as something that's acceptable whereas you determine there's something that's not exactly the reason the reason i believe i have the authority to do that is i'm an ordained minister of the gospel and i believe i've been commissioned i believe i've been commissioned by god to declare these things to the world i can believe i've been commissioned by a god who's going to deny me well what we do is we're i believe i'm right and who's going to deny me right well your argument is invalid now i i i no i would tell you that if you if you had an event like this i can assure you first if you had an event you were declaring what you believed to be the truth i wouldn't be here trying to shout you down i'd listen to what you have to say that makes sense right you're using fallacy no no but what i'm saying is that i have i have reasons for believing what i believe to be true i know that not everybody in the world agrees with those reasons so i go out and declare what i believe to be the the case and we have q and a afterwards and i do my best to answer the questions and if you wanted well what's a good book to pursue this or how can i do something so you agree then that you since you can be wrong that you do not have any right to judge and pass judgment uh no that's not true that that okay doesn't follow want to apologize because this does not have to do with the lecture too much uh it's more things you've said in the past um so this is i have with me a little pamphlet that was handed to me before i came in uh trying to bash these rumors of your racism and bash kinsey at the same time it says uh so why do folks in bloomington want to pretend that wilson is a racist and the answer being because they would like to distract from the fact kinsey was a dirty white perv peddling junk science and defense of destructive sexuality the reason we feel like you're racist is because in southern slavery as it was a monograph by steve wilkins and douglas wilson i think that's you um it says slavery produced in the south a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the war since whatever its failures slaver produced in the south a degree of mutual affection between the races which will never be achieved through any federally mandated efforts um can you please elaborate on that how is that not racist sure it's actually one more time one more thing um three historians even said uh condemned it um with one of them saying that it was as spurious as holocaust denial uh that that it's pretty racist to me please elaborate and how is and how it interconnects with christ and how christ had unconditional love for the world and how the two interconnect how racism is okay because god said it was okay which is what kind of what this pamphlet is telling me okay well let me uh let me step into your work your world view for a minute and let me and and speak to this thing that i said in southern slavery um and this is very important assuming what your your view of the world to be correct what you just read if i agreed with you i would dismiss as stupid nasanine but not as racist especially since elsewhere in the booklet i define race racism racial animosity racism and the belief of superiority of one race over another as a sin against god in that booklet i do that counter your own points no no i'm saying some people who agitated things needed to do a little bit more reading before they got got the wind in themselves this is the this is the fundamental thing so just so you understand this as far as the spurious racism charge i believe that racism is a sin i believe that it's evil i believe that god hates it and i believe that god will judge it along with all other sins at the last day now is that racist no no all right that's my that's my position now if if if i believe if i believe that um you you shouldn't take an uh a sinful institution which i believe slavery was and attack it by fomenting a war if i believe that that you ought not to tackle the problem that way but rather you ought to attack the problem another way you might differ you and you're invited to differ with whether my approach to it is wise or stupid foolish whatever but it's not racist i have one more point no you don't have to hear him yes my question is about the the church and specifically the catholic church um as we all know a vast majority of pedophiles identify as heterosexual men um so how do you think we can we i'm using problematic term here how do you think one can rectify those issues without tackling the crushing patriarchy that the church embodies okay one uh one of the ways i would suggest and of course i'm i'm speaking here as an evangelical protestant i i believe the catholic church ought to be done with the celibacy um restriction i think it's just asking for it but i i believe you i i believe that if you take a bunch i believe that if you take thousands of men bring them into the priesthood give them authority over the lives of others and they all don't have the gift of celibacy that the apostle paul had it's it's going to be it's going to be bad all right so so basically that would be the first my first suggestion is to lift the requirement of celibacy for the catholic clergy but i'm not a catholic i'm speaking as an outsider that's simply my two senses what can be extended to your church then have you seen any instances of pedophilia abusive behavior and things of that nature and how do you think that that once again patriarchy plays a role in this and how this sort of silencing that patriarchy does enables this to happen thank you in our experience i do believe that males who who prey on children are using a patriarchal grid a power grid and i believe they're using that to abuse the people who are in their charge or under their sway or whatever and i believe that what we've done when this happens is we respond to that with church discipline so we we don't put up with that sort of thing at all if someone is is found to have been molesting or abusing a position of trust the church takes action and we would excommunicate someone who professed to be a christian and who behaved in that way can i highlight one thing how you highlight the distinction between pedophilia and homosexuality because oftentimes those two get conflated oh yes i'm not sure if it was completed tonight because thank you i'm happy to accept that heterosexuality has all kinds of pedophil pedophilia associated with it as well yes i'm not trying to make any statement that it's peculiar to homosexuality we've been asked to leave the building by 9 30 so dean mccabe has asked us to leave the buildings um doug is willing to talk to you to continue talking to you but not in here one stipulation we can go outside and talk in a peaceful manner if you're not talking the peace of mind he's willing to answer your questions yeah i'd love to continue talking he's not running he wants to talk to you so do it if you do what you want i have a question who is shutting down conversation on the public university the dean the dean of students okay all of you students know that the dean is shutting down this is sir sir and we are going to oblige okay thank you everybody now i want my students to know that the dean is telling you that we cannot continue with this discussion i have to i'm happy to answer your questions outside what about those of us seriously i have something to ask you publicly not you as an individual this is a community discussion this is not a one-on-one information sharing session sir the building has to close and that's the issue people are in buildings all night long because as a student i would like to talk about uh there was an agreement with the director to conclude the event at 9 30 the building is open until 7 30. so it's up to you if you want to continue building's open until 10 30. it closes at 10 30. it's up to you you all want to win here we go [Music] and thank you sir okay okay yes ma'am hello is this thing on still yeah it's fine yeah um so first let me preface my question with saying that i am not a christian however i did grow up in a christian home and i have christian parents um i am also homosexual however um i personally i believe it all goes to the same place but that's my personal belief and i am not here to impose that on anybody else however i do have a very specific question that requires a specific answer okay now christians believe that the levitical laws which is often quoted to say that homosexuality is wrong was god's covenant with the jewish people it had their dietary restrictions it had their codes of conduct for the jewish people correct right okay and christians also believe that jesus was the new covenant for christian people that they no longer had to follow the jewish covenant but they were now following jesus as the new covenant correct correct then where does jesus say that homosexuality is a sin [Applause] two things jesus jesus and this is a an astute question in this regard jesus never specifically mentions homosexual sins by name right so um the follow-up to that however is that jesus presupposes the inspiration and authority of the old testament including the ten commandments and he tells his followers to pay attention to his apostles and his apostles very clearly affirm that homosexuality is a sin so that's uh that's my take on this is for my friend aaron who could not get down the stairs because his wheelchair okay can can somebody be both christian and gay well certainly yeah you can be christian and gay then well are you expanding it man expand it a little bit it can are you asking me if it's all right to be christian and uh be gay and it's absolutely okay to be gay and there's nothing wrong with it no why not yeah why um we i have uh speaking as a pastor i'm a pastor of a church that has homosexual homosexuals in it members in good standing who are homosexuals now because of that so if you're asking is that is that okay is it all right for them to be members of the church and have that particular orientation absolutely uh if you but if you're going to accept what the bible teaches they are not permitted to express their sexuality in any kind of external way in an open relationship and if they were just like we would excommunicate or discipline a guy who moved in with his girlfriend because if you're a christian you need to be married all right that's god's law if you're if you're a homosexual male or female with that orientation and you express that then we would we would admonish you we help you we do everything we could to help you but at the end of the day you can't be a member of our church and express your sexuality that way yeah i can't be a member of your church yes correct that's i'm answering that's where i'm answering the question from but that doesn't mean that it does not mean that if you um have been homosexual or been gay as long as you can remember and you're converted you know you're 22 years old and you're converted and you come to our church i'm not going to say i'm not going to stop you at the door and say no you can't come here no i'd receive you except you i'm christian i'm bi i kiss my prayers to my god and i kiss my girlfriend okay yes thank you i really appreciate you coming here tonight to share what you have to say thank you i just wanted to share with everyone including you what it's been like to actually walk as a christian first i want to say that growing up i never really knew what it was like to have loving parents both my parents were very abusive mostly mentally and emotionally abusive and to actually describe myself in just a few words i would say that i was a child left in the dark left in the dark with all these painful memories and emotions just starving for love just totally like torn to bits you know for a child going through that since she was three years old and to try to curb the pain i would get addicted to things i would get addicted to like junk food and many other they many other things you know i felt like i was high all the time as a child on all kinds of things to try to distract myself from the pain of my life now i actually was developing depression at five years old at seven years old i actually had a suicide attempt by trying to hang myself on a tree when i turned 13 years old i went to a psychologist and psychiatrist i told them that i was hearing voices i told them that i was having mental and emotional difficulties i couldn't i was had having so many mental problems because my loving parents weren't loving me so i didn't have a mental and emotional stability now both those people all those professionals those psychologists and psychiatrists they pretty much just wanted my parents money so they couldn't help me my psychiatrist diagnosed me with ocd obsessive-compulsive disorder for those of you who don't know what ocd is when i turned 15 like i was on paxo for about a year and when i turned 15 years old and i got off paxil and you feel the withdrawal effects of course when you get off any psychoactive drug you know it's really hard on the same day at the same hour and at the same moment that i was actually gonna go commit suicide real like really truly go commit suicide on a tree i cried out to father to heavenly father as you would call him and i don't know what you guys think but i was in my room doing that praying to father and i felt the holy spirit come in like a great wind like a great river an ocean of love and i had i had all kinds of questions about god growing up you know i thought i mean i would read the bible and think oh my gosh god is like violent you know god is like mean he's cruel you know he's like just so many negative images come up you know and i was actually taught that too like i mean my parents like they grew up religious in their youth but they became secular when they got older and they didn't want to they wanted to shove god in the back corner you know and leave their bible in the dust on the shelf all right so is there my i i just want to make a point of like just giving a brief testimony when i started actually learning about god beyond what anybody said about god no matter what picture they painted of god i learned how god's love is unconditional and from the inside out and it's no wonder why his holy spirit is supposed to be inside of us because god knows that it's inside of us where we need to love most because you can be physical with your spouse yet not intimate because intimacy is all about the soul thank you and that's what i want to say thank you for sharing that [Applause] yes my question's primarily academic actually it is a university after all um i have a it's a it's a couple layer question so you feel free to stop me at any point uh what translation of the bible do you teach from i do various things but most for the most part i preach and teach from the king james version of the bible so do you recognize that the bible as you can imagine is a very studied book and it's been studied by many scholars and um and there are many translations and there's many problems which each with each of the translations and i have some concerns about your translation and your teaching about uh mary magdalene and the assumption of her being a prostitute when there's a great deal of conflict about whether or not she is in fact okay thank you first i i wanted to flag that the the argument is it's not that's not a really a translation issue because there's no there's no place in the bible in any translation that says that magdalen was a prostitute the argument for that is the juxtaposition of the woman in luke 7 who who is that kind of sinner if she is mary magdalene who's introduced right after that then that's the argument but it's quite possible that she's not that one this not the same woman at all but luke describes the two women quite differently correct yeah yeah different places and so so it's sort of a convenient juxtaposition to to underline your point and i as an academic i feel that that undermines your argument by uh insulting our intelligence as a learned audience in terms of recognizing that we're not going to see that difference okay no i tried to flag it at the time and i said if you take it this way then mary magdalene is that woman but even if they're two different women mary magdalene says expressly in different places at the end of mark and that she had seven devils cast out out of her so even if she were not a prostitute she was a demon-possessed woman and fits under my general heading of a disreputable person the kind of woman you wouldn't generally want to arrange for your son to marry okay and so that's a pretty all right all right so but you you pretty strongly implied that she was a [ __ ] and and and so yeah and i don't think you're going to disagree with that right no that's but you also sort of progressively in my opinion think of jesus as marrying her oh no g i believe that thank you um i believe that that jesus marries the christian church and mary magdalene is a type of the christian church she represents the christian church the bride of christ is the christian church and mary magdalene represents the kind of disreputable past that all of us have that was my point okay yes hi um my name is maya ferrario um i first wanted to thank you for coming it was very interesting um and he had already left but there was a family member here sitting before you today and um he would be very unhappy that i'm saying this in front of this many people but i am bisexual and proud so at the end um and mine's a very short question it's it's just one there i don't have five um one of them um is a direct quote from you in the first part of the um session and it says you become what you worship yes and um i am curious because there have been a lot of people standing up and saying you know i'm gay and i'm christian so you become what you worship does that mean a part of god would be gay um no what i'm what i'm arguing is that we don't our worship doesn't determine who the true god is but but what we think god is is what we become progressively like so i believe that muslims become more and more like what they think god is i'm a christian so i don't believe in allah i believe in the christian god but i believe that muslims become more and more like what they believe god to be i believe polytheists become more and more like the polytheistic realm that they think is the ultimate reality i believe that people who believe that that ultimate reality is infinitely malleable as i said become more and more that way but i don't believe that that their their pursuit of that i don't think alters the ultimate way things are okay but what if the homosexual christians believe that that is the way things are well if they're right they're right but them thinking that doesn't make it right so the um my my belief system doesn't make god that way god's god is the way he is whether or not i've ever was ever born um truth is truth regardless of what i might think about it so my beliefs about god don't alter him if someone else has other beliefs about god that doesn't alt if they're right they're right but they it was right independent of their opinion our opinions don't shape god and i'm arguing that we ought to have our opinion shaped by the way he reveals himself to be okay and i'm not saying that he's shaped any specific way i'm just saying that maybe he is he is part of everyone so maybe he is gay i'll just yes hi um i would like to make a clarifying point first before i go on with my question and when you talked about disreputable disreputable women you mentioned bathsheba as one of them you said she's sinned because she left her husband to go sleep with king david but that is actually not true david committed adultery in his heart when he saw her bathing on the roof he killed her husband he took her by force he made a psalm to repent called create in me a clean heart oh god i feel like she should not be responsible for being raped okay um there's a couple of things i i do agree with you that david was the one who initiated all that and he was the primary responsible party but he saw her he took her she got pregnant david called her husband home from the battlefield so that he would sleep with her and think that he was the father and that's that's the wickedness that david got into and there's nothing in the text that indicates that bathsheba was an unwilling participant if she were like there are other there are other instances of rape in the scriptures that are described as such like another woman a different tamar than the one i mentioned with david's son raping his uh half sister that's described as such and the bible that's just completely condemned by the bible so if if bathsheba is raped then she's not culpable at all but my reading of the text indicates that she was a willing participant my question is in christian fundamental circles the words marriage and by extension family are really big buzzwords and they always have been and especially in this moment now biblical families as i'm sure you know do not really hold up to this kind of james thomson ideal and for my peers that means one man who is usually the head of the household and the breadwinner one woman who is usually a stay-at-home mother and 2.5 children this kind of pastoral image was born in the 50s and 60s with tv shows like the brady bunch and leave it to beaver in the bible you have polygamous men that are still admired today such as izal jacob gideon solomon abhija rehab you have abraham and his concubine hagar in the new testament you have this samaritan woman at the well which you mentioned who had five husbands and jesus did not denounce her for that you have the roman centurion if you look at the annals of history roman centurions often had sex with their male slaves jesus healed his male slave in matthew 10 verse 37 to 9 jesus mentioned that traditional families are not really his concern he said anyone following him well if you follow him it will set man against father daughter against mother and the man's foe will be his own household so with these examples in mind how come christian fundamentalists still continue to hold on to dobson's one father one mother 2.5 child family as an ideal and denounce all other families that don't fall into this category first just a slight correction in my experience with the james dobson model it's one man one woman and 5.3 children so we've we've got something else going um so that's the first thing the second thing is virtually everything you said from the old testament i agree with all that that's right out of the bible polygamy and those different things but here's this is the pattern i believe that remember i said that god came in order to put things right and we see the unfolding of things getting better over time it's god doesn't arrive like the 82nd airborne jesus says that the kingdom of god is like yeast that works through the loaf it works gradually and over time so i believe that god created the world before the fall one man one woman he created adam and eve not adam and eve and susie and sally and henrietta so it's one man one woman that's the creation design abraham and isaac and jacob who were polygamists i believe were living at a subcreational sub that's not god's pattern not not god's design in in the in the new testament that's uh in jewish tradition that's not in the bible in uh in the new testament when jesus when jesus comes it's he he has one bride and then when the apostle paul is establishing christian churches um he requires that a minister or pastor or an elder in 1st timothy 3 he requires that everybody in church leadership has to be a one-woman man that's a fundamental requirement so i believe that if you take the long view over history i believe the logic of christian faith is monogamous but you're quite right to point to the exceptions throughout the bible to that and and i would say yeah and i would object to that and uh jacob had a hard time because of his you know because the great baby race between his two wives and his two concubines it was not a fun thing it was it was not a good thing yes i want to thank you for coming and and for staying longer um i have one question that i may have missed here due so it may not really make sense but um i think you said that like okay my question do you have like do you have to be married to be saved is what oh no thank you no and then also our met is like man and woman equal and then also what sorry three questions and then also what are your views on rape okay uh number one no you don't have to be married to be saved the apostle paul uh had the gift of celibacy jesus never married um you know you so we i'm not i'm talking about uh a cultural norm or a pattern i'm not talking about an absolute rule in every you know no exception so there are many fine christians who are unmarried there's no requirement to get married the only time you have a requirement to get married would be by the apostle paul in first corinthians 7 where a person is not contained he's not able to contain himself sexually paul says you need to get married but um if but there's no absolute requirement you're sending if you if you don't get married the second question was i'm sorry um the second question was are man and woman equal uh yes in um this goes back to the in in in in general and in scripture the passage quoted earlier from galatians in christ there's neither june or greek say fee male female my wife nancy and i function as equals we operate as equals we talk as equals in the christian lexicon when it says in philippians 2 jesus submitted to god the father and it said paul says he did not count equality with god something to be grasped so um for for christians submission to authority does not mean inequality does not automatically translate to inequality so my wife and i believe what paul teaches in ephesians 5 about headship and submission in marriage i believe that and she believes that and we believe that together as equals i treat her as an equal she treats me as her equal so equality doesn't erase headship and submission third in in biblical parlance rape is a crime i made earlier i made a distinction between sins and crimes rape is a crime ought to be treated as a crime ought to be penalized as a crime so i heard somewhere and i just want you to clarify i heard that if like if the rapist asks the rape victim's father like then they can get married or something like that person's permission yeah yeah thank you that comes from my book her hand in marriage and what i was talking about there is a biblical law that said basically in in our modern parlance it'd be a situation uh that we would talk about it'd be like a date rape kind of situation let's say uh a a woman is forced against her will she conceives um the guy is clearly a bad actor but he's not he he's not someone who way later in an alley on you know on the way home he's not a serial rapist he's someone known to the family so the the bible teaches that when a woman is raped all the legal protections go to her so the rapist is required to pay the the dowry the bride price for her to make her marriageable again and the father is allowed to let the person marry his daughter which i would believe no father in his right mind would do and um you know unless it was one of these weird one-off situations like the the kind of thing that we we would describe as date rape or statutory rape or something like that i i believe that fathers should not um and must not it would be a sinful sort of thing for them to just treat their daughter that way if it's if it's of turning him turning his daughter over to a violent predator is just not you know ah no okay thank you okay yes sir okay so i speak as a queer i speak as an atheist i speak as a student i teach i speak as an instructor and in my class we always try to talk about the bigger picture because we try to teach sociology by getting bogged down in facts it's really not effective and so i was really hoping you would get to the bigger picture but one thing that i thought was about the bigger picture of was when you talked about rebellion because you talked about we do have to talk about where we are now which as a sociologist is what i study the reality we live in and you said that where we are now that sin has entered the picture and rebellion has entered the picture and so i was a little bit confused because that sounded like sin and rebellion might be the same thing then you go on to say that sin is in crime or not the same thing of course not all acts of rebellion are crime not all all crime i guess would be active rebellion anyway but i'm curious as a gay man as a gay instructor as an atheist who's here as an act of rebellion um what is the relationship between uh sin and rebellion okay i believe that um the definition of sin in first john is john defines sin as lawlessness he says all sin is lawlessness so i believe that sin is defined as rebellion against god so there are instances in human relationships where someone might rebel against an unjust authority and that's an act of rebellion but it's not a sin right because the the authority over the person was himself sinful so i believe that all rebellion against god is sin and sin all sin is rebellion against god but i don't believe all rebellion against human authorities is necessarily sinful at all okay so this is going on at this university right now we have a lot of people pissed off about the way decisions are made at the university and so is rebellion against the board of prestigious a group that is not elected a group that does not speak for the people if we as students rebel against the act of the authority of this university the dean of students who thinks we need to close before the event's over uh the board of trustees who think they can make decisions like we're running a business is that sinful for me to act in rebellion against those things well let me say as a as a visitor from outside i've come from moscow it's the university of idaho there you've got indiana university here i'm an outsider i don't know all the ins and outs of the politics here so i'm not going to presume to step in and and say anything but i can say in principle that uh trustees and directors of of universities like this one are fully capable of running the show with a heavy heavy tyrannical hand and that when you kick against that or when you protest against that that could be righteous and the authority could be unrighteous also it could be the other way around you know you could have somebody who's just being a troublemaker and someone else is just trying to keep the peace how do i know if i'm a troublemaker well it might take a longer time than we have to sort that out yeah can i use your microphone i just want to clarify the situation with the dean d mccabe reminded us that we're the building closes at 10 30. told us in order to get out of here orderly that it would be wise to be done by 9 30. that was something that i agreed to so it wasn't the dean requiring us to leave that was a decision that i made with her input obviously we've agreed to go past that but we still do need to get out of here soon so i think a few more questions would be wise and if if doug would like to continue outside that's up to him thank you yes sir thank you for your time i just on the similar academic note i reading edward saeed this this semester and he talks in orientalism about the the different ways that uh literature has has moved to to kind of uh put on constructs of of different uh you know people groups middle east in in his example and he proposes an alternative viewpoint and that is a literature um a comparative literature that that tries to take different viewpoints of course he's been criticized for that and and the uh the the eventual goal of trying to find a true way to look at literature has been an issue and it will continue to be an issue um and in the similar light we have seen in in the media we've seen a constant state of flux and we look at the figures in the last 10 years we see that viewpoints of amer the american public has changed drastically um in terms of homosexuality more than doubled in in the 18 to 25 age group in terms of accepting it so we see a great amount of flux is do you see um and this may deal more with your first uh talk and the first hour which i was not able to attend um do you see a good way to be able to cut through um different constructs to cut through and to really see a true um see both the media literature and all aspects of culture in a true way do you have a yeah i i don't this this was very much the theme of my first talk i don't believe that the the culture clashes that we're seeing i don't believe are going to go away at all and the only you know just by continuing in them i believe the only way they're going to be resolved is if there's another religious seismic shift underneath all of those those controversies just like there has been in the last several decades i believe we've undergone a religious realignment and consequently the ethical systems that are based on those differing religious systems are in collision i don't think talking and working i don't think that's going to solve any ultimate problems i think there's got to be something resolved underneath which is why i want to be a preacher of the gospel yes sir i have a couple but they're real short okay stop you just for a minute just so we don't blindside anybody do you have a time that you wanted to be starting to make our way out okay um so we'll go for 10 more minutes and then we'll make it outside and if you're at the tail end of the line i'll do my level best to talk to you outside okay okay my first question is did you choose to be heterosexual no no okay and i didn't choose to be homosexual but you said i did earlier in one of your uh first sessions second question this part is a statement i actually don't believe that everyone i don't think that's necessarily true that people choose but you said it so you said you believe the bible and you uh follow the bible correct all right so why do you have feet enhanced because matthew 5 30 it talks about if you sin it is better to chop off a member of your body than to go into hell right so why do you have hands and uh feet if you follow all the bible okay um good question and and here's how i'd answer it in proverbs it talks about a a servant who is foolish and exasperates his master because he runs off to do what he's told before he gets the message straight jesus doesn't say chop off your hands and feet he says if your hand no no he says if your hand causes you to sin cut it off if um if your eye causes you to sin gouge it out he notice he says if my hand my hand has never caused me to sin okay that's what conversion is being converted being forgiven is is having your heart ripped out to you the thing that causes you to sin jesus says if your hand causes your sin if your eye causes you to sin sin is so serious that you ought to deal with it but my eye my eye my hand don't cause me to sin the thing that causes me to sin is my old sinful nature my heart my flesh and that is why i had to come to jesus and have it removed to die in him this is a little gruesome but um you're i don't mean to be rude here but you're an older guy and i highly doubt that you have not masturbated so therefore your hand has committed a sin and therefore you're going to hell because it's still good um actually it it's quite possible that jesus it's not um confirmed but it's possible uh there's a there's a rabbinic tradition that cause that calls uh masturbation the sin of the right hand it's an idiom or a euphemism for masturbation in the rabbinic literature it's possible that jesus was referring to that when he said if your hand causes you to sin cut it off but the the point still remains a man let's say a man is consumed with lust and he masturbates and he does so with his right hand and then he cuts it off because he thinks that's what the bible requires well the problem is he's got a left hand and and and the problem is if he cuts off his left hand he still has to go to hell if you don't want to go to hell you have to have your heart taken out you have to have your heart transformed that's that's the issue yes sir um so uh i study psychology here okay and i'm particularly interested in kinsey's research and i uh came here under the supposition that it was about kinsey i guess i missed that part in your lecture where you talked about kinsey and um i was interested in uh where your research is that shows that his is wrong because you say that kinsey is wrong yeah i'm just interested in what kind of uh surveys are conducted to particularly that particularly your counter-argument are yeah your counter the particular thing the particular things i would object to with um with kinsey is his correspondence with um a guy named von bolliosek a german nazi who did um experiments so you have a problem with who he was friends with not with his research well he was using juan baruch's information as part of his research okay so you still have a problem with his friends not his research no his friends were his research his friends he gla he collected information from these people and in kinsey's um kinsey's book i think it's table 32. um he he talks about um orgasmic experience in infants two months old four months old and he has the table that goes up and and it explains how many orgasms in a 24-hour period these little kids were having and the only way they'd be having what kinsey called orgasms because he defined orgasms in these situations as including convulsions throwing up screaming fear which is what a child would do when being preyed upon by a sexual predator that's defined as an orgasm in his in in his operational definition and he includes that in his research he included prisoners and represented them as part of the general population he included prisoners including people who were in jail for sex crimes as normed ordinary citizens and as i just i believe it was a junk science to go with junk morality so right there you go yes um i know we're short on time so i'll try and think i'm a bad speaker speaking but um my brain is all over the place right now i'm a little dehydrated too but aside from that um so okay let me think about this um i i follow the parts of the bible that i personally believe are right and there are other parts such as you know referring to slavery women subservient to men and rape and all that stuff i don't think are quite right because i believe truly what god really wants only he knows and only jesus knew and we are his messengers but humans can sometimes get things wrong so i don't follow the bible word for word but i do take in the good stuff that i really truly believe in such as love and care and i just think about okay when sometimes the problem with religion and i'm talking about all religions not just christianity christianity is good things but it can also sometimes lead to bad things like inquisition and stuff like that earlier but um sometimes if you label something with sin but you say well we still love them we still love them and we still care about them putting that sin label on it sometimes people can misconstrue that and start to think oh well that's bad we don't want to be like that person and then that's when we develop prejudices and and start labeling people not just send people and it just kind of grows and grows and grows and then you start you know seeing kids being bullied in school because kids think they're gay or you know kids are committing suicide getting beat up you know matthew shepard he got killed he was left to die on a fence because people thought he was gay so that's when i think okay i believe that jesus was right about love and i think he was right about caring and i think jesus is a wonderful person and i love him i was raised episcopalian baptized catholic and i truly believe jesus is about love and when there are negative things in the bible i can't help but to think maybe that wasn't really his words and maybe that's people putting their biases in it because people were the ones who wrote the bible not jesus himself and i just feel like like this scar it's not real but it's a symbol of how labeling can cause harm people can be sinful and take things that they've heard and act out on other people and i just feel like oh thank you i'm really dehydrated um i just feel like if we're true christians we need to act it out with love and not judgment and if you think about jesus he was an outsider and people persecuted him and they they mocked him and they hit him and they they crucified him right and i just feel like i don't want to be like those people right um a couple things thank you and and i i think we should wrap up after this this answer and then i'll try to get to your questions outside yeah you you give me yeah cut me off okay he's the bad guy if all right so so so but but here's the thing i have a deep suspicion of a pick and choose approach to the bible because i know my own heart i don't believe that i'm literally pure if i came to pick and choose what they're parts of the bible that are very inconvenient for me and i'd rather not have them be there and i believe that if if i'm picking what's the the nice parts and the and the hard parts i find i think i might be tempted to pick and choose in a way that's self-serving i think the fundamental problem is people not the bible and if people come with the authority to pick and choose and make their own bible out of the bible then i think we might have situations even worse now the other thing is on loving each other and that sort of thing there's a great deal there that you're saying that i agree with but of course i'm seeing it from another vantage point so for example mistreating people uh well would something like that uh be accusing someone of being a racist who isn't would that be included getting people whipped up about you know people like i want to do over at the battle of gettysburg you know i want to reinstitute slavery and i don't um if i hate slave if i hate slavery as an institution and i think that racism is a very grievous sin and people get all agitated because they have had been told that i'd hold something different well that that's divisive that's the wrong that's we shouldn't be doing that but people who have the best of intentions they say telling themselves nevertheless got a real sizable event here based upon misinformation um can i just add one more thing um i do consider myself not as strictly following the bible christian but more of a spiritual christian who comes up with art not comes up with but i follow what my heart tells me because i feel god and jesus are in each and every one of us um and also i believe um you said that maybe those people who are saying you're racist and blah blah blah are judging and yes technically yes but i think the difference is being racist is a bad thing yeah but i'm not one yeah and i'm not accusing you of one but loving a person isn't sinful right part of the reason i don't want to follow my heart is quite honestly i believe that it's too much of a rascal i just i just don't want to entrust myself to that yes oh hi and i wanted to thank you for spending so much time talking i know that that's really exhausting and thank you you're dealing with a lot of questions um i what i wanted to ask is kind of related to what she was saying and a few other people have said about my main concern is the culture that this these teachings create amongst people i believe that you are well intentioned and that you don't mean any harm to other people but the problem is that when you get very disciplinarian and punitive with things like this it creates a culture where people are very self-punishing which this isn't like a christian thing this is a human thing and i've seen it i know you're exactly right i grew up in it and i grew up in it locally with some of the people here in these rooms and i've experienced being scrutinized because they have certain specific beliefs about you know what i'm wearing you know the questions that i ask and things like that and that in my brain i'm a bigger picture person that's not the point i'm not hurting anyone and i'm not doing these things how do and you're a pastor so part of this this is your responsibility this is right and how do you create so how do you take responsibility for your part yeah that's a great question aspect i i agree with you and i do take responsibility that do take that responsibility onto myself i preach against pharisaism all the time i preach against not other people's standards that they're applying foolishly i preach against our standards the ones that we're inculcating in this church community um you know you've got if you're homeschooling you've got your kids in a private christian school and you don't do this and you don't do the other thing i attack that kind of stuff all the time i do it routinely because you're exactly right there is a little pharisee in everybody's heart that wants to set up and judge other people but you can't and i think you were also right to say this is not a this is a people thing this is the nature of people you could be judged at a at a at a homeschool convention for what you wore you know that's a little immodest but you could also wear a fox stole into the starbucks and get it in just as much trouble you know you you can get in trouble because people love judging other people people love feeling superior to other people and it's a real problem and i think again only the gospel of jesus christ unleashed stated as it is liberates us from this pattern and i it's a destructive pattern you're exactly that's um but i i should have been more explicit what i was really asking is how do you in real time deal with the actual consequences of what you're teaching and how that naturally causes people to behave well in in my in my pastoral counseling which i do quite a bit of in my preaching pastoral counseling i routinely find myself i'll just put it this way siding with the victim right in other words i don't i don't find myself um coming alongside fathers and saying yeah you yell at your kids all the time but you you'd lay it on double down that's not how it goes what i believe that shepherds and pastors need to get in between despots and tyrants and their victims and i believe that they have to stand up for the underdog and i believe that that should be a regular part of their lives and i can assure you it's a regular part of mine okay oh and i also want to comment i actually do some work in the jail locally and inmates are regular people too they're just the people that got caught right so i think that's really important there's a lot of discrimination between that there i could have been one of the ones that just got caught you know sure so i think that you should be mindful no i'm when i was talking there about kinsey's research you'd if you want a representative sample of the population on sexual behavior don't do a sweep of the imprisoned pedophiles that's not a good sample but those are just the ones that got caught and yeah real research no but if you go if you but if you go outside if you go outside the jail presumably that would be diluted yes okay i have two very short comments and one also very short question first comment at the very beginning of the lecture you um used the word solomites okay that i understood as a personal uh personally very offensive word because it was directed at me now no offense you are a well-fed guy i can i can say something very offensive but i think this would be very disrespectful and ugly to say it in front of so many people so i think maybe when you when you are aware that most of your audience might be sodomites it might not be a good idea anyway second hint at it second um comment is your protection of marriage so far in everything you've said has been based on the fact that god created adam and eve right where exactly do you make the connection between god creating the two parts of a whole that procreates itself and the assumption that that is the only way that people can love each other and that is not really a question because so far you've given a lot of circular non-answers to most of the questions the actual question which i'm pretty sure you're not going to answer here because we don't have the time for it is there are six comments which are used commonly to denounce homosexuality particularly six six what six comments well six parts in the bible okay in both testaments and i've read a lot of articles on those both by christians and non-christians there is strong argument for each and every one of them how it doesn't necessarily really talk about homosexuality right are you really verse enough with the original language of the scriptures that if i were someone who is really deep into this argument and sat down with you to argue on each and every one of them could you really defend the position that any of those statements actually denounces homosexuality yes i've got a degree in classical uh studies which means two years plus of greek so i'm conversant i could i could discuss this with regard to the new testament i'm not i've had some hebrew but i'm not i'm not in a position where i could go toe-to-toe with a hebrew scholar but i'm i've done spade work in the sources and commentaries and we have people in our church who are up to speed in their hebrew so i feel comfortable in both areas personally with greek and um indirectly one generation removed with with hebrew can you can then give me a non-leviticus example quote sure in the list that you were referring to when i said sodomite um i wasn't the the point of that was not name calling academite uh basically paul uses two words in corinthians one is um in a male homosexual act the sodomite is the one who plays the part the male partner the catamite the receiver is the one who plays the female role in that sexual he's also uh uh underage the catamite is always underage yeah okay i'm also aware of that yes so so so the point of using those words is to say that i'm just re reflecting the language but you're aware of that that is a comment against prostitution a male prostitution it's not against homosexuality in general well yeah male 1 well but the problem is what's wrong with male problems so the problem is not just that it's prostitution but also that it's male aren't you assuming things here um no when when paul says i assure you that those who live this way will not inherit the kingdom will not inherit the kingdom of god the text doesn't say anything about the exchange of money the one place where you have the money indicated is at the end of revelation where john says that dogs will be excluded from the new jerusalem and that's almost certainly a quotation from deuteronomy where temple prostitutes male temple prostitutes are called dogs and that that there the prostitution the transaction of money is very much in view but in corinthians it's not mentioned at all it's simply the sexual sin itself okay last last thing i promise i'll be go forever uh in the end the all of those though is directed at people who act against their nature right that nature being heterosexual no act against the creational nature but i i'm i believe that there are many people who are oriented in a homosexual way from a very young age they didn't volunteer for it okay so but i believe that god's word defines what sin is not our nature god's word defines what we can and cannot do hi first of all i'll say even if i don't agree with what you're saying i respect your right to free speech thank you and now i have a two-part question in 2009 you wrote a blog post defending certain uses of the phrase that's so gay by students to describe behavior that might be described as a feminine metrosexual or squishy or limp wristed you acknowledge that the phrase so gay is an insult when used in this context could you direct me to the passage in the bible that determines what behavior qualifies as effeminate metrosexual swishy or limp wristed and if the bible doesn't dictate it then how do we know what qualifies as inappropriately effeminate metrosexual swishy or lymphrested behavior okay thank you um i've got a book coming out in in just a few weeks called father hunger and i addressed this question in that in that book can you give us a little sample yeah and here's an example that from in this example is from the book um i believe that cultures just we're speaking in english we have certain assigned meanings to the words not every culture has gives the same assigned meaning when you have completely different languages you've got doorknob is one thing in one language and another thing entirely in another language in the american military salutes are rendered this way in the british military salutes are rendered that way but the meaning of the salute is the same okay now um in human cultures and this is universal from as far back as we can trace there are cultural identifiers and badges of femininity and masculinity in various cultures nobody thinks that a kilt is a dress right even though technically it's addressed but everybody recognized right everybody says no no no that's a kilt right that's not a that's not a dress but when you have someone who's acting the part of a drag queen what they're doing is they're they're they're riffing off the societal norms they're doing what they're doing because they know what it means and they're trying to affront that i believe that christians are required to respect the language of their culture which differentiates male and female masculine and feminine and i believe that we're to honor that without assuming that if there are ten badges of masculinity in in this culture that you're you're a christian guy's in sin if he doesn't have all 10 you know i i don't believe that that's the way it works but i do believe that we communicate with one another by means of clothing by means of mannerisms by means of words and so forth and i believe that in every society you've got masculine and feminine and masculine christian men are responsible toward god to effectively communicate the fact that they've adopted the masculine role but but there's nothing specific in the bible that says to me doug wilson you make sure that you go open your wife's car door in the parking lot at costco it doesn't say i think if you do a little more research you'll see there's a wide variety between uh concepts of masculine concept of feminine throughout cultures and they're very different anyway well i did i i agree that's the part yeah uh then how do you justify advocating the bullying of children by other by other children the kind of behavior responsible for a slew of youth suicides over the past years including an attempt of my own i wouldn't defend bullying at all you you encourage people to say that's so gay and to bully other students no i don't know how that's not bullying i can read you the quote from your blog go ahead i would if you can find a thing on there that says i encourage kids to bully other kids man that'd be bad terrible well it's pretty it's pretty long okay so gay is an insult but it is an insult usually directed against anything that is effeminate or metrosexual or switchy or limp rested something down those lines in other words what do we do when something really should be tagged and it really is gay whatever that means uh the word purest nazi in me likes it when there is resistance to the deterioration into uselessness in any words usage and that makes me agree with the ads thus far if a teenager objects to the way his mother seasons the potatoes he says apropos of nothing that her seasoning methods are so gay then of course he should be told to knock it off and the more people who take him in hand the better but if his friend john shows up at school in a hot pink satin shirt gay is the word for it the word gay is fitly spoken we are surrounded on every hand with contemptible behavior that needs a word to describe it the kids have found one so let them run with it okay no bullying there you're labeling something that you have identified over and over again in this lecture as sinful that i got picked on for what i wore that's bullying um there's a there's a couple of things when when you talk about interactions especially when you're talking about junior high school you have to determine whether this person is driving on the sidewalk or that person is jumping jumping in front of the traffic or both right i believe i can assure you that if if you've got a group of friends who are picking on making life miserable for someone for being gay and let's say that they really they really are they're struggling with that and they're just being they're being hounded uh we would expel kids i'm on the board of a private christian school we would expel the bullies for that right bullying i have no patience with bullying at all i also have no patience uh anybody who any anybody who believes that this guy who was carried off carried out of here by the cops was was a victim of police brutality needs to get a little more cynical right it for cops on him you need to basically what you have to do is recognize that if you have one guy said say to a friend joking that's okay you need to knock that off that is not bullying all right that's not bullying but there is such a thing that's who you are that's what they think you are this is the this is the thing i don't believe i i don't believe that that um one of the things i want boys to do particularly i'm talking about boys now is to learn how to uh give and take rough and tumble sort of like if i used an illustration here why aren't you talking over here well if i go over here whoa i can only talk about one thing at a time what i'm saying what i'm saying applies to if girls are being catty and [ __ ] and making like well do you want me to condemn girls being catty a [ __ ] or do you want me to say this was this a bad word or something i i've i heard things shouted here earlier that made me think that this was maybe a free speech zone so the the point is that the point is that when um girls are making life miserable for girl for a girl for whatever reason even if it's for just personality trait or if it's because she's into something that really is a sin i believe that that bullying is sinful and wrong i also believe the same thing for guys no double standard it gets expressed differently among guys than it does among girls but i believe the same sin is a sin bullying is a sin but going oww they hurt my my feelings i've i've had people um you know you're watching a basketball game and the guy takes the charge when the when the guy's still two feet away from him and he flops under the basket a lot of that happens in situations like this and i just don't i don't have patience with that i'm sorry if if a culture says over and over to you again that's so gay that's so gay you're stupid you're wrong go die how is someone supposed to take that if it happens over and over and over again i don't think people should say go die unless they're saying come to christ and die in christ and be forgiven yes yeah okay we do we do need to go i will sorry about that and i'm happy to talk to you outside you

Channel: Canon Press

Views: 411,750

Keywords: alfred kinsey sexology, christian speakers, christian speakers on marriage, christian speakers corner, christian sexuality, christian sexuality single, doug wilson, canon press, gay pride, pride, sjw, freakout, alfred kinsey, sexual revolution, kinsey, sexuality, Bible, LGBT, social justice warrior, social justice warriors, triggered, flip out, conservative, leftist, politics, religion, douglas wilson, pastor, christian, sex, sex and the bible, biblical sexuality, sexology, kinsey institute

Id: tQip5rf9QiU

Length: 118min 31sec (7111 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 11 2019