let's go into the courtroom and here with the judge has to say about Paul Ferguson. ♪ >> No objection, but I would ask those be considered as nonpublic yeah the court is going to have them scan in the court file, but they're going to be non public. They do contain e a large amount what I would consider very. Personal medical information that I don't think that's appropriate to be in the public domain the court is going to reference certainly closer e. Conclusions from these But those do not reveal specific. Medical information I think it's appropriate to the court will will make this part of the record because it's going to be consider those and sentencing, but again it's going to be out in public. So all any additions or corrections you have the pre-sentence report Mister Roberts. >> Beyond that additional I >> Okay all the debris have you an opportunity to review the pre-sentence important intensified lines. >> Yes I have no additions or corrections but also notice on the topic of letters I submitted a letter from Steven Martha. Then there are those are the fergusons. I believe those will be step grandparents, I'm a current placement of his younger half-brother G they had intended to be here and support this morning but we're L this week. >> Okay, yeah, I also consider that to did you receive a copy of that as well Mister Robert is it. OK I read that too I've got them. Out of a large number of letters from people that was unrelated to this case specifically. I'm just the individual who sought and Court TV and expressing an opinion I I'm not considering those and sentencing. Because one they're not directly connected to the case I and I do appreciate the comments from but I think it's important we limit to the record to 2 people actually have something to do with this case are connected with that. So most of the objection of that I I've but I'm not using it as a consideration, so any objection to that Mister Roberts name just around Brady, I would know. >> Not having seen copies of those I can't comment on the specific letter, but no issue with that. >> Yeah, I mean there there's there's just random people who saw it on TV and I just don't think it's appropriate for the court to do take that into consideration for sentencing purposes. I don't think that's fair to Mister Ferguson with. So additions or corrections Mister obama no additions or corrections all right Mister Ferguson, if you received a copy of the pre-sentence report needed to guide lines. Yes, your honor any additions or corrections you have no your honor you have to be hit me up opportunity to discuss the contents of that report with your turn. Yes, your honor. Mister Roberts do we have any victim representative who wishes to make a statement today within Iran. Okay any comments regarding sentencing yesterday. Thank >> as I said to the court this is as it relates to Paul this is one of the most difficult cases I think I've ever had to deal with. I'm not just from the standpoint of how difficult the subject matter was here the tragic death of Timothy and the circumstances surrounding it, but just with Paul himself in and I'm not saying anything today really that I am told a poll in multiple meetings that we've had and leading up to the trial and his cooperation here that there that I view him as favorable and that he was willing to help us and to testify against his mother which I'm sure was very difficult for him to do under the circumstances but that I was also angry just frankly angry and shocked and appalled that that his treatment of Timothy because he was for all intents and purposes the enforcer arm of this 2 The 2 people most directly responsible for Timothy's death that he was the one that would deal out most of the punishments that were directed by his band are can she's received the appropriate sentence for her role in this as well. I had mixed emotions about Paul. Even up to and including the time that he testified in this trial and those frankly one of the things that we discussed at the time of the plea was giving Mister al-jubeir 18 opportunity to get the evaluations which we now have in an effort to hopefully demonstrate in some of the guard. Why Paul did these was it was a psychological condition was there some manipulation taking place. And quite frankly I think just as my feeling is is there's good and bad with Paul I think both of these assessments reflect the same thing. What is absolutely clear from both of these assessments is that whatever upbringing Paul had. From his from his mother and frankly from his father as well. Led to him being how he is today and that that was a childhood that I think both reports indicate was marked with abuse and neglect a very traumatic moved around a lot and what also rings through in this these assessments is that nobody did anything to get Paul any help. When when it could have made a so so that is that is in some respects that's the good part of this because it does seek to at least explain in some regard. Wipe all behave the way that he But there's bad in here as well and I'm sure the court will know this but the the the one sentence that struck me and doctor she's written or is that it says in my opinion poll for Ferguson was predisposed to abuse his brother independent of his mother's presence and active influence in his life. That's. And there's other scary part of this as well that that indicate the Paul was at least in some respect predisposed to being essentially a bully. And that's. That that's how you can view his behaviors that that he was a bully now nobody I think would expect any bullied to take it to the extreme of actually killing a person. And although it certainly does happen, but that nobody expected that was an intentional outcome that Paul so We can't lose sight of the fact that Paul didn't become this way in a vacuum that his upbringing in some respects lead to him being predisposes this report indicates and I think the other report references as well but he was predisposed already doing some of these things. Frankly I think that Mister Bandar took advantage of that and use Paul because she saw an opportunity to have Paul do the horrible things that she couldn't do herself or wouldn't do it yourself but be done in her direction. And Paul was unfortunately willing to go along with those things because of again because of everything that happened to him because of his traumatic upbringing in because of the conditions that he did have the lead to that. So the. It's hard to balance these things certainly we did not have this report at the time. The Paul and I I don't know that in looking at this report that the decision that was made in this case would be any different and that certainly there are things here that would have been nice to have been able to consider but we didn't have the benefit of that and as as I told Ford I think until the court on several occasions and speaking to the jury they were his van ark's case very impressed by may not be the right word but that certainly factored in polls testimony a great believe that he was telling the truth he was honest about what his role in this and spend Art's role in this so I think his testimony was instrumental in that in the cheating. The conviction that was that was a cheap fare against MS. Bandar so I Paul that consideration and. But beyond that I I certainly don't envy the position. The court is in today. In balancing everything that's taken place here the good and the even in this report and the good and the bad with Paul I will stick to the agreement that we've made here I will ask the court to sentence within the sentencing guidelines in this case. Certainly the court as the court is obviously free to exceed the guidelines if it feels there's a basis to do so and quite frankly there are reasons to exceed the guidelines. In some respects as reasons to go below the guidelines as well so literally I think any number that porches to pick your I think could would be the appropriate sentence because I think it's it's a difficult balancing act that the court has to do But my commitment was and continues to be that we would ask the court to sentence within the sentencing guidelines. I would ask the court however to impose a maximum number here that is essentially equivalent to a pause life expectancy would be and the reason for that is that if some of the bad that's indicated in these reports is actually the president and Paul does not receive treatment for that and those conditions that they're noted here most notably the potential antisocial disorder the essentially associate and if those things are borne out. >> All right we're going to pause button here there's more Welcome back to court TV live in Julie Grant thanks for being with us on this Monday morning. We're watching the sentencing hearing for Paul Ferguson, his mother is tionda Vander Ark you know she was convicted of abusing and killing her younger son, Timothy Ferguson policy older son and he was complicit in the child abuse, but he was also a key witness so that's something the state has to weigh here in giving the judge its recommendation for sentencing for Paul and be hit the pause button just ♪ a moment ago, let's go back in now and hear more from the prosecutor. >> In his system. >> The prison system in has the opportunity to people. Locked up as as long as possible. I I hope that he can get some treatment inside there. But the bad and here has got to be addressed and if it's not then certainly Paul does represent a threat to the public moving forward because of his disassociation essentially from feeling empathy we're feeling bad about the things that he had done. In the moment, it did not appear the Paul felt bad about those things there certainly was a moment where he he thought he needed to let his mother know that Timothy was very soon and that they should start feeding him. But overall comes through in this these reports is that for the most part those were absent in the text messages. I think even bear that out as well that even after that noting of of the fact that Timothy was very soon and that they needed to start feeding him. Pope is still a willing participant in the in the truly tragic and horrible things that happened in the last days of Tennessee's life including the prolonged ice bath. Paul launched over. So certainly that that bad needs to be addressed as well. So again I I don't and the the position the court isn't a day. I will stick with my commitment here and ask the court to sentence within the sentencing guidelines. But quite frankly any number that the court picks here I think would be inappropriate For Mister Ferguson. I'm I'm pleased that we've been able to see to achieve whatever justice we could for Timothy here in both of these convictions and certainly the 2 people most directly responsible for what happened to Timothy are going to in all likelihood be incarcerated for an extended period of time certainly missed and arts case for the rest of her life which is completely justified under the circumstances. So I would ask the court to as it is it will have to do to waive the good and the bad here in these reports and I trust the ports and. Address whatever decision the court makes it. >> All right, thank you. Mister Roberts. Mister elevating the occasion. >> Why are they to start responding to a point that Mister Robert made before going to. Multiple points. I plan to address. I I understand the prosecutors characterization of Paul as being enforcers being the primary one. But I believe part of that is based simply on the evidence that we have. This court's for the text messages extensive text messages of MS. Van der are constructing Paul on what he was to do to Timothy. You've heard Paul's testimony about what he was instructed to do and what he did. The rest of the time. When she was there doing whatever she did. Paul was at work. She didn't have to send text messages to herself. Timothy is not here to talk about what have that what was just him and his mother. So I. I disagree with that characterization. I I believe based on we do know of MS. Van der are that there was far far more that went on it was far far more that she did. There simply is no evidence of no one to speak of because the only person alive who knows what she did. It's her. Reading the pre-sentence report in this case I can't argue with the reasonableness of the recommendations in the pre-sentence report. I also really can't add anything about the offense about the details of what happened to Timothy. You presided over the same trial that I watched I know emotions. Other paperwork submitted to the court you're aware of far far more than what came out publicly what was submitted to the jury. But I asked the court to consider I I think there's 5 fronts on which Paul should be evaluated very differently. And where his mother yes. And the first is just pass it on understand. This Van der, our attorney argue they didn't know what they were doing. They didn't realize that it could kill him are costs that level of injury. I don't have to come to a conclusion I don't have to. Say I think that's right or that's wrong. To understand that 41 year-old law school graduate. By her own boasting at the top of her class. Passed the bar with flying colors. Who would have been an attorney well academically was qualified to be an attorney we never got an answer of why she wasn't. And it worked for the court. Both from the legal front from a moral front from intellectual front. Have far far more capacity understand what she was doing. And the potential consequences of what she was doing. That her son who is a 20 year-old high School graduate who worked as a dishwasher. There's simply no comparison. Incapacity in life experience in an ability to understand and recognize what was happening. Second while we recognize for purposes of the child abuse statute for purposes of Paul's plea. The law may not distinguish between parents and another person over the age of 18. He's placed in charge of a child. The mother has a very different role than a sibling. We all know that there's a certain level of rivalry, a certain level of. Competition that we expect between siblings which is very different than the care that we expect from parents. Welcome back to the text messages. It was very clear. Paul was the follower and his mother was the leader in this case. Listening to over an hour of text messages read during her trial. It's pieces missing. We don't get the whole story because she talked to him off camera. She talked on the phone to talk to that person. But what is very clear from those text messages. Is there is not a single time that Paul gives an instruction. Every single time and instruction is given you need to do this. It is given by. And Mister Roberts has addressed this regarding calls cooperation. The gravity of what happened saying can. I believe from the reports that was a day or so after. Paula shown for Morris. He shone confusion over how he could have done this recognition that it was wrong. He's testified honestly. He's fully cooperated. In many areas in ways that were not a clear benefit to him. His mother did none of these things. She took the stand and why. It's not my fault I didn't do anything wrong. And 5th than. Very important in looking at the evaluations. Of Mister Ferguson. It's very clear that he and his other siblings were also there DEMS of their mother. CPS involvement going back to when they were in elementary school. Back with Timothy was 18 months old. A 3rd grade teacher who said Paula Nolan are secretive about what happens and they're not supposed to talk about. So when Mister Johnson argued in cross-examination of Paul why didn't you report it to somebody. A lifetime being told you're not supposed to talk about what goes on. A lifetime of being isolated. Separated from peers. Having no meaningful social contacts outside his household. That all started with her. When Timothy was 18 months old when Paul was 7. That Timothy was under fed. Failure to thrive. Paul didn't have anything to do with that. But that was the pattern. That was his entire life that was just in time framework that was what she taught him from the beginning. Or at times failed to teach him through neglect. Mister Roberts reference I don't remember that was in sentencing or in his closing argument. But the difference between Timothy and Paul was that Paul was useful. At least not to the mother. I disagree with that characterization. But I think that's important for the court to consider. Timothy was treated the way he was because he wasn't useful that's her children. In their mother's household were treated if they weren't useful. And I believe at some level some part of Paul understood that. He understood that we do these things to Timothy because he's missed behaves because he doesn't follow instruction because he's not useful. And part of understanding that it's also understanding. Didn't follow instructions. He got on her bad side. That he could once again be subject to some of the same mistreatment. On the left front. I don't think any of them ever ceased to be subject to that mistreatment. and with his mother's own words from the text messages reading. If he falls asleep for you. From you not watching. That is not going to end well. >> Alright defense ending his arguments to the court as to what kind of a sentence he believes his client Paul Ferguson should receive Welcome back to court to be live. Let's go back into the courtroom now we're watching the sentencing for defendant Paul Ferguson. We just had his attorney finishing his arguments we hear from the state first. Then the defense now we're going to hear from Paul himself, let's watch. ♪ >> If I could just make one more brief point and it's not in response to anything. Mister Brady said that the court reference that it's had a lot of outside people contacting the court I certainly have had that as well. It one of the one of the consistent themes there is people believing the Paul suffers are not sufficient it's it's not a suffering. The poll is on the autism spectrum. Yeah I think it's important to know that in both of these evaluations. That's not borne out and certainly people may have that that belief in think that that should be a factor here there's nothing in either one of these reports that supports that conclusion so I just want to note that is certainly something I think the court could have considered. But there's nothing in the report, the support that I don't think miss Helton Brady would disagree with that point you know. >> To I I was going to my comments as well so. >> Your honor I think the reports do bear out that some of the characteristics that those individuals are observing in coming to that conclusion are connected to that neglect and abuse and. I believe is doctor Frank characterized as normalization of abnormal behavior. So while I agree that that both analysis it seemed to come to the conclusion that that diagnosis is inappropriate. I don't believe that those observations by the individuals mentioning that. And grounded it's simply that that those. Behavioral characteristics come from a different source. And therefore do not lead to the ability to officially diagnosed with that condition. That does not change the fact that those characteristics are there that those characteristics are relevant to Paul's interactions with his mother or that those characteristics are relevant to ongoing treatment services the Paul will need moving forward. >> Mister Ferguson ending which is a prior sentencing. With 3 sons could justify my. >> Suns I could make up a 1000 and never believe point. What words can voice my regrets. I can think of millions it never feel it's not. If I could do it all again and do it writes I what. I feel I will pay for my choices and you ever feel better. Because he still gone. I've had time to think during my time in Muskegon County jail and I realize many things about myself that I might never have to have considered otherwise. My problems and flaws to put it simply are the place to begin correction of self. I asked the judge for nothing more than mercy and fairness to offer me compassion so I might learn from him. To better myself in the coming days and serve my time with what the honor. In search of a better tomorrow. >> OK short statement from the defendant himself there and as you can see the It helped out just to go he finished their that was the end of his we're going to see if we get that signal in the meantime let me bring in my 2 guests who are watching remotely sunny slaughter and Tommy your thoughts before we hear the judge imposed the sentence what are your thoughts and with the state said the defense and then the defendant himself sunny. >> I agree with the prosecution. 100%. I think that the defense had an offer to nutty to identify with an expert when there I'm Paul has autism I'll be sharing something later about autism and those on the spectrum I do not think that his family if he has not been seen in evaluated for that I think the judge is going to hand down a sentence that is commensurate with the actions he's behaviors and the death. A young Timothy or send us not forget who the victim actually it is and was in this case right sunny. It was Timothy knot Paul certainly not shonda Tommy pope share with us your thoughts on all this if you would please. >> I think what you heard from the prosecutors he he kind of reiterated you know I think it out the in the sentencing range that Bush was handed down that But then he also said Judge I can see reasons to go above it and I can see reason to go below it and whatever you do I think that would be Justin so I thought from the prosecution and then from the descent, the fence. There wasn't really the adversarial nature as much as a resignation that this is tragic case of the young man that's got to be held responsible the the tough job in the courtroom today as for that Judge you know there's threads of of you know the mental illness or whatever they want to call it certainly not autism from what the prosecutor said, but you know to find if he can be cured word of whatever this behavior is that he could be productive each clearly extremely intelligent I thought it was well spoken and his word and and so that the judge is gonna a tough job we always say you never tempered justice with mercy and trying to find the right spot is going to be interested to see what he can stand. >> And you're right Tommy excellent from you in sunny here and when we think about Paul this is young adult who does have a lot of years left when we think about what kind of a threat to society would he be I'm not so sure could be any threat here the threat was to his younger brother in his house also with the power and control of his wicket being exhorted upon him I wonder if if this young man would do OK once he gets through some programs and gets a lot of intense therapy and help in prison, a sunny your thoughts on do you think get some point in time Paul Ferguson can become a productive member of our society. >> You know Bryan Stevenson once said we are. You know better than the worst thing that we have ever done and and I think this fits staff particular case. And I think he is. >> We should all believe and hope that each of us has redeemable qualities and I think that as you said without the grant and coercion of his mother he can become a productive member of society. I agree with you sunny. >> Tommy last word to you please on this point I know you thought his words. We're we're well-spoken I agree with you. He seemed remorseful he seemed contrite what do you think that out with with the judge did you think it means anything to the judge to hear him being apologetic and regretful for what to cut. >> I think it does when when it's sincere it appeared to be sincere. He's also that opportunity to watch this young man in the courtroom and also watches mother and her baby were in the courtroom and said the good thing is he's out from under her finger print the bad news is that fingerprints kind of be on him for the rest of his life and it can coming up with sunny. I I've got I believe in our faith in humanity that he can be redeemable and you know he was carrying out her wishes which doesn't totally defended but it does explain it. >> Yes, yes, well said Tommy pope sunny's law we're always a pleasure to have you both on this program. Thank you so much for all of the insight and what we're going to do here since we're nearing that top of the hour we're going to squeeze in a break when week come back we're going go back into that hearing will hear the judge's remarks what might he do with Paul Vander Ark will he be joining his mother in prison if so for how long. It get a period of probation. Clearly this young man needs supervision. We'll see how long it is when we return. Thank you for watching Court TV line. Welcome back to court to be live. I'm Julie Graham thanks for being with us on this Monday morning. So right now we're about 30 minutes out from the major live trial in New Mexico, the Baldwin movie shooting case against the former armor on the film Hannah Gutierrez now the state expected to called the lead investigator today so should be fascinating testimony, we'll go there live once judge takes the bench and the means time we're in Michigan where the judge is about to deliver his final remarks before giving the sentence to Paul Ferguson, he is someone who has admitted to the child abuse of his younger brother Timothy Ferguson who died at the hands of him and his mother for Sean de Vander Ark she's been convicted of Timothy's murder and. >> Her son Paul was complicit to a degree 3 he had a hand in this but he was also key to the case in key to getting justice for the most culpable person and that is his mother shonda so what might the judge do with him let's go in together now and find out. >> So the the first concern of the court was whether or not Mister Ferguson was suffering from some sort of intellectual disability Weatherby autism or something else. And a couple of references to then throughout his report Mister Schieffer to doctor seasons report. specifically the first reference that the court and highlighted was on page 2 of the reports first full paragraph of his says in my opinion. He referring to Mister Ferguson was clearly either psychotic nor suffering from symptoms of a mood disorder at the time of the current interview. And he was apparently functioning within at least the normal range of intellectual ability at this time. This in my opinion he does not suffer from a chronic psychotic disorder e the chronic mood disorder or an intellectual disability, there's another reference more to the end the report. Worry indicates that's his is referring to Mister Ferguson, his educational history is stunt with him suffering from intellectual deficits and as noted above he was apparently functioning within at least the normal range of intellectual ability at the time of the crash interview my opinion to fund it clearly does not suffer from an intellectual disability. So the that was helpful record because as in some of the letters that I received as well Mister Roberts indicated that there was concern that Mister Ferguson was autistic. I think probably more toward and that was easier to mean even if you're late in that kind of thing and certainly the court does take someone's intellectual capacity into consideration, I think it's important to understand the full situation so the quote a. And that in all those are 2 small portions of the opinion that the court referenced do borne out by much more in detail history and doctor she's specifically. Doctor she's an. Analyze every statement that the defendant gave please see also watch the testimony of Mister. Ferguson. Interviewed him himself he also look through. From the Oklahoma Department of Health and Human Services look there is history from school records for various psychological assessments that were conducted throughout his life. Based on the reports so I think that opinion is well grounded. In not only his interview Israel view of educational records. His review of mental health records. and everything else health West records current we from when he assess when he became Muskegon County jails to the court finds it to be quite persuasive in terms of whether or not Mister Ferguson, the suffering from any intellectual disability. The courting concludes based on this report. Well written report well grounded in fact in the history of the defendant that he was not suffering from an intellectual disability. Currently we're at the time of this offense. The second thing. Is whether or not Mister Ferguson was somehow manipulated to workhorse by his mother. I think all of us. I would like to believe that this is a product of manipulation that this is simply somebody doing something that they were told to do that they were afraid. Mister elving Brady mentioned it in his elocution regarding this specific text messages as well. Those specific text messages I heard as well and the trial shortly after the trial concluded. I asked the prosecutors office for a complete copy of every single text messages that would occur between this Van der in Mister Ferguson and because I didn't want just the snippets the kind of highlights are the you know the real you know juicy stuff for lack of a better. I wanted to understand completely what the conversation was between these individuals. I read every single text message every one of them. I think there's thousands in there I read 3 times now 3 times and told I read it to you know 2 months ago in a month ago, I read it. Last week Friday in time afternoons spent reading through these things and I think it's clear to me that Mister Ferguson although he says that he was scared of his mother or there's an allegation that standpoint I find that just the opposite to be true based on those text There is some mention about punishment. I think Mister Ferguson. In my opinion being submissive for lack of better term to his mother was a result that he really had nowhere else to go. He had been kicked out from his father's house for for failing to obey his father's rule and for other things and he went to his mother's house and I don't think Mister Ferguson really have anywhere else to go. I think he was sort before them to his in terms of well there's going to be consequences. Although there are some text messages wanted to those that bear that out. This strikes me in the text message is more of a collaborative effort in fact there's some text messages where Mister Vander Ark actually tells Mister Ferguson. That if MS. Timothy does not behave essentially I'm going to leave him to you. As in that he's going to let the dog out and just off the chain Mister Ferguson also several times. Things that are going on that are bad. And I think it's because he wants his mother to give them that the mission to go and engage unpunished and so in terms of. Whether or not his mother he was somehow freedom his mother. I don't think that to be the case now. That was my initial feeling about in my and what I what I took it is and that's why I wanted the assessment regarding whether or not he was being manipulated and luckily we. We did get one from. The second one a reference was doctor far and which specifically I think he was he was asked to assess this particular. My question in in the beginning of his assessment is the says that specifically I was asked to assess whether Mister Ferguson possess the sake a lot of psychological disorder of traits that would render him significantly susceptible to manipulation coercion or suggest ability. After conducting the evaluation they could not substantiate the streets as they pertain to the commission of the offense. As such as report Winstead explained the nature of the valuation of my overall opinions regarding Mister Ferguson psychological functioning. He also kind of regarding his intellectual abilities Isis from a diagnostic standpoint I did not find sufficient evidence to support Mister Ferguson meeting criteria for any specific mental disorder. Why would they consider Weathers presentations suggested the mayor developmental condition exam for PG autism spectrum disorder. I did not find this to be inappropriate labels that I attributed his overall demeanor in presentation factors such as the lack of socialization normalization of abnormal dynamics and experiences, poor interpersonal skills and emotional dysregulation. He also indicate later on that page that I was initially asked to evaluate whether Mister Ferguson had a mental condition of treats would have rendered him susceptible to coercion or manipulation, suggest ability at the time of the offense ultimately could not arrive at this conclusion based on the totality of available information. Available haven't snow does noted that he was capable of appreciating the abuse towards his brother that he was people are recognizing the detrimental impact it had and that he had times disobeyed this Vander Ark and tried to provide his brother with a tense up port furthermore despite reporting that he was under Mister Vander ark's quote psychological hold. He adamantly denied that he was coerced and manipulated into enforcing the abuse additionally recognize to some degree pleasure in having power and control over his younger brother. In this sense wide knowledge that he reported experiencing fear and concerns of disobeying this Vander Ark I could not reliably substantiate his involvement is being a byproduct of suggest ability. It's just ability or convert coercion. What this court is left to conclude is that Mister Ferguson. When I look at this is that Mister Ferguson and these rip courts and a lot of these years and throughout the report. There's there's talk about how Mister Ferguson boy his brother. When he was younger. there's a mention his his stepsister who I think acute on behalf of his mother. Are on behalf of Excuse me Timothy and and Mister Vander Ark sentencing is this is the stepsister and this is before the police even really gave told her about exactly what happened here says the stepsister reportedly told the police that quote she doesn't know how involved Paul was in the situation. But he is the biggest bully. She is never met in her life and he found genuine joy in tormenting Timothy whenever possible. >> Just for clarification I don't think that was Milli that helps us maybe I'm case perhaps I'm wrong about that. But this was someone who without even knowing the full details. In one of the interviews by Mister Ferguson indicate that he like getting praise by tionda admitted he liked having control over Timothy. He reportedly admitted having power over somebody feels good. Later in the in the interview I asked him whether he had felt the sheen at the time when he was abusing his brother and he said quote no he had not I asked whether he had recognizes action is morally wrong at the time and he again said quote no he had not he then down tear that on one occasion quote I sent her a photo of health and he was and why and when I asked why he did this. He explained that I was worried when asked when he was worried about Mister Ferguson, Ferguson replied that he had been concern for us House of them that he was nothing but bones. I asked him whether he had at the moment thought that this abusive behavior was wrong. He replied that quote that thought never even crossed my mind. The treatment plant back from July 22nd of 2012 indicates that cool client Mister Ferguson, sometimes boys, his younger brother, the deceit was Timothy. The report also. Mentions cruelty to animals stealing. His mother at the time back in 2018 told us. >> We are going to hear the sentence from the judge in just a moment husand delivering the grounds for his opinion >> I'm Kelly craft in Santa Fe, New Mexico covering the Baldwin movie shooting trial you're watching your TV your front row seat to justice. >> Welcome back to court to be live of Julie Grant let's take you back to Michigan now we're about to the judge delivered the sentence for Paul Ferguson. ♪ >> When it has become glossy telling siblings what to do. For Mister Ferguson's per reportedly when com and about as being your it's that this is due to a younger siblings, not listening, it's physically aggressive towards younger siblings. Also he also trying to lock is younger brother. It apparently a reference to the seed in the closet because his brother wouldn't listen to him. So the court read this and certainly. Looks at this is someone who is predisposed think was off to a conclusion predisposed to abuses from her. Specifically the victim in this case in history of doing. >> Now I have no doubt in my mind. >> And then Mister Ferguson is a result of years and years and years of physical neglect and abuse on behalf of his mother no doubt in my mind that's borne out this report. >> The court is asked to essentially ignore the decisions are his behavior. And to somehow say that we're going to minimize the damage. And what he did in this case because of and if the court started imposing that stand 3rd, I think we would be in a real tree. Because every defendant the comes before this court it has a horrible history. I would say that's the reason they're here people that have supportive parents. And things go good for him typically don't come in and that's not always the case believe me there's a lot of interventions but everybody has a history when I was looking at is whether or not this is a product. His mother or his situation and what I can conclude is that this is not. Mister Ferguson. Is trying to shift blame. From his mother from him to his mother to say that somehow was a wasn't for her. I wouldn't have done this or she's the one that did this. >> Trial what I've heard described her order at her ordered her already have seen it over and over and over again is that just keep underscoring the point. >> If that had been isolated incident. If that had been one or 2 of these things have added and punishment that he administered. Maybe the court could accept that but we have an individual. Who's been a household for 6 months. Intentionally himself engaging. Of another person. Is one word on my mom's going to say. Clearly that doesn't it's not borne out in these reports he had the ability to submit his mom in fact he was on the stand and almost boasted that why give them extra food weren't you worried about your mom was going to have sent. I still gave him extra food so what that tells me is that this has many careful. Manipulated. The belated story by Mister Ferguson from the very beginning of this saying that he's going to put the blame on his mom I'm going to be manipulated. I haven't asked for this and I have autism I've Stockholm syndrome is mentioned him say will move in a Stockholm syndrome in here. No this is an individual with the truth of this is the truth of this is is that we have 2 individuals. 2 individuals. That lack empathy who lack a motion and both of them. The triggering factor in this report. The triggering factor that cause this abuse was the removal of the husband of stepped in and once he was gone these 2 individuals were free to torture somebody and they did it. MS. Van der are did use. Mister Ferguson I think that she knew from his history that he was predisposed to torment Timothy. I think that she knew that he would have no problem doing that. Mister Ferguson walk through that door and was happy the enforcer was happy to do it and continued to torture has been the other over and over and over and over until he was. The shell of a person. No no. Barely any muscle on. And the whole time. Just let it happen. The report says it appears that the stepfather is presence in the home have prevented Paul and his mother from abusing the victim. Again it wasn't anything to do it. They were just holding him back essentially. Overall opinion which I think is important says in my opinion, although defendants participation in the abuse was up in was in a party function of the social million living situation these contextual factors were not be necessary condition for his participation. As previously noted mental health records contain information to the effect that while they were still living with their father and stepmother, reportedly had no contact with the mother. Mister Ferguson stepmother told the psychiatrist that he has become Bossy doing something was to do in the defendant himself that he would become irritable do these younger siblings, not listening because physically aggressive toward these younger simple you also reports that he's gotten irritated with his siblings and his push them in retaliation. So so try lock is younger brother. The deseeded in the closet because his brothers would listen to him. Consistent with this Norton shores Police Department documents indicate that Mister Ferguson stepsister told to leave the court is the biggest bully she's ever with this your life and he found genuine joy in tormenting Timothy whenever possible when they were living in the biological father's home. Notably the defendant allegedly engaged in this abusive behavior despite there being any safety rules in place. Despite his father and stepmother disapproving of this behavior to such an extent that they removed him from their home once he turned 18 because of it. My opinion poll for the sun was predisposed to abuse his brother independent of his mother's present active influence in his life. Nonetheless in my opinion Mister Ferguson's involvement in repeated acts of abuse that amounted to physical and psychological torture. Over a period of months reflects a general lack of empathy for his brother any lack of remorse for his actions. Concludes that in my opinion there's no reason to believe that Mister Ferguson's conduct disorder has remitted or that his participation in the abuse of his brother was not an expression of the persistent pattern of antisocial com. The court is that Mister Ferguson will not get the help he needs to prison. I think he's one step away from becoming a psychopath like his mother and down the court is concerned that he represents a danger to the public. That if released he would. Represent a significant danger to the public. Try the charge here is child abuse. I don't think this charge with the sentencing guidelines taking the adequate consideration of the long sustain torture in this case as I indicated MS. Vander ark's testimony. There was a long long period of months. Of of various punishments bread with hot sauce. Hot sauce apparently contains to the hottest peppers that we have in the world. While sits for an individual who. Practically had no muscle left. Running up and down stairs cleaning out the garage is no pants I'm sleep deprivation and itself. Putting alarms on them so we could move or sleep. Making up you got food. There's bathroom time. Sleeping in the closet with a tarp down. Which quite frankly might be considered animal trapper, you know animal abuse, but we have a human being here. Making his hands over his head. And then at the end of his life an 8 hour practically ice bath. So no, I don't think any of those things. quickly taken into consideration by the guy and and I don't think the guidelines quite frankly can even. These guidelines don't justify Mister Ferguson's actions. Mister Ferguson, I I think you are a product of your environment. But I don't believe you that you're sorry, I don't. I don't think you have an empathy I don't think you have any emotion what so number and that's what scares the court. It really scares me. I think you're sorry you got caught. I don't think you wanted to die either like your mother because as you would get caught and you wouldn't torture him anymore. believe me I have tried to sit here and try to think well maybe Mister Ferguson's not as bad as mom. I think you just spent. If not worse because. Johnson actually as you can you brought on the roof of that. Think of food for. You could have gone to a neighbor and said hey my mom's abuse, you know you could have you could have grabbed him and got him out of there you could have any number of things to stop this. You chose not to. Sentence of the court to serve 30 years 200 years machine department correct shin's credit for 592 days you've already served. The court's going to set a $60 state cost 130 a crime victim rights assessment to additional fines and costs. Mister Ferguson you right to file an appeal in this case if you're financing able to retain the attorney will be appointed to public expense, West Des Moines must be made within 42 days of today's date could be seen you for that you must complete return to court in that. With 2 days in which the quest to appointment. >> the judge not mincing words they're telling Paul Ferguson, he is one step away from becoming a psychopath saying that he sees him as a danger to society and when compared to his mother the judge said ICU is just as bad if not worse because Timothy was in his care, he was the one David de caring for Timothy in could have flagged it for police could have put a stop to it could have done something but he chose to do nothing and go along with his mother's bad behavior. While the judge launching him 30 to a 100 years oh boy oh boy were you expecting this that is a hefty sentence for a young man let me bring in my guest now see what he thinks of this season retired NYPD sergeant, he's the host of the podcast to crime with the sarge Joe Jack alone on the show with me this morning, Joe good morning to you would you think of what the judge just did. >> Yeah I think he was spot on I mean when you hear about the torture go back animals and all the other things that are going on, I mean this is like the definition of what you're dealing with the future cereal to look and be able to do this to your own brother and and to be able to you basically go along with the program I mean I know people say that you know he was on the big mothers. You even this and everything else that goes along yes, but you know what that no remembered that defense doesn't work that I was only doing what I was told and if you don't know your history we're doomed to repeat it. And this is just something that you have to look at it in the sheer depravity of this act and to be able to do this to anything let alone your brother is it's just one of those things were just makes you know, she's just about the only word you can think of. >> Isn't that the truth sarge I know it is it is not easy 8 in thinking about the facts and how about when shonda Vander Ark feigned than I shall never forget that when she was on the stand and she appeared to be stunned at the photos of her son is if she didn't know what little Timothy look like when she was starving Kim in abusing him and torturing him for all those my has been served for both shonda Vander Ark and her son. Paul Ferguson will oh boy 30 years, I'm sure we're going to see an appeal but we'll leave it for now we'll see if there is an appeal or anything that is even and appealable issue he pleaded My goodness 30 years. >> Don't you think he's going to fare well in prison, what do you think about how this kid may handle him 7 ick gz young adult he's a young adult but I I'm not calling him a kid, joining me tweet me inside no sympathy for this guy believe me. But he shot we know that this all started when he was a He's an impressionable young adult I would imagine prison is going to be horrifying for him. >> Yeah I think the the evil that he awaits for him is going to be in measurable. >> I mean some of the things that needed to his brother there's a likelihood that they're going to do to him, I mean he's not. Imposing figure at all. And you know listen the than the work gets back to the prisoners before we even know these things they have the TV they have the Internet they know exactly what's going on. You know when you see what the the torture was like and you're dealing with a prison system where there are a people who are worse and he is unless they
