Scientology: The Story of Kate

Loren's woodcraft raised two daughters in Scientology Lawrence Astra and Zoey have since left the group and Astra has had a daughter of her own they came back to Clearwater Florida to tell their stories to the Lisa McPherson trust Astra spoke to Stacy Brooks about Scientology's impact on their family and the dramatic steps she took to escape from Scientology this is Kate woodcraft Kate you want to say hi to the camera say hi to everybody asked her why don't you tell us the story of Kate I have been in the Sea Org for about four years at this point and I was 19 and I hadn't been happy the whole time but I had never really admitted it and then my dad's mother died and I was able to get a week off to go to her funeral in England so I spent some time with my family I hadn't seen my family in England for 10 years I spent some time with my dad I hadn't been out to spend a lot of time with him so the whole time I was in the Sea Org and it just dawned on me that I could not I couldn't take it anymore I wanted to be able to see my family I knew I'd never ever be able to go back to England and see my family again and I knew I wouldn't hardly be able to see my dad because I had already been told I wasn't allowed to see him other than this trip but I had never said you know I want to leave I had never said I'm not happy because if you want to leave it takes like a year six months to a year you you have to do hard labor you have to wear like gross clothes and you're put under watch someone's watching you the whole time and you're called they call you a degraded being what is it that means you're like criminal like a bad person like scumbag and the staff referred you that way the commanding officer Ron Norton would regularly go up to the staff who wanted to leave and say are you still a degraded being and they'd have to say yes if they still wanted to leave so every single staff member is going to sneer it you look down on you it's like it's just a horrible feeling and then you're trapped for six months because I mean people would say why can't you just walk away but I have my mom I have my brother and I had my sister and my grandma and the serie gif I just walked away they'd never ever speak to me again and I couldn't take that at that point so it was partly that I couldn't stand the idea of like six months to a year of hard labor but it was more that I knew they would just change my mind back because that's what regularly happened that's what one of my Jobs was to change people's minds back who wanted to leave but how did you do that well you know it's just like der ass like you're out ethics which like means you do like bad things you've done bad things you've done criminal things what are you hiding you know and you're forced to admit you know thoughts you've had bad thoughts you've had things you've done you get to the point where you know you do just you'd rather just stay there then just you know have people looking at you like that calling you things like that harassment on a daily basis being under watch you know it's like it's like the difference between if you were in a minimum-security prison where you have some freedom and then you're going to be sent to the high-security prison you know and you just say okay I'll stay but I'll just go back to the minimal security prison because at least you know you know I'm treated like somewhat of a person as opposed to so that's what it's like and it was my job to do that at one point and I knew they'd be able to break me because I wanted to leave so bad and my resolve was really strong but so were a lot of people's and I knew they'd break me you know over and over and over and I just I thought I'm gonna have to do something where then I just have to go there's no choice and the rule was okay first you're allowed to have kids then when I went in the into the see organization you got sent away to lower org about a year before I decided to leave they made a new rule and that rule was if you get pregnant you get an abortion if you won't get an abortion you're out and you're out and they give you a big bill so you lose your job altogether all together yeah yeah and you're still considered aggregator degraded being and all of that but they just kick you out first they very strongly try and coerce you to get an abortion and I know several people who did which I can go over in a bit but so I thought and I wanted children too and I had been married since the age of 15 and I hated being married my husband and I didn't get along at all we could not talk about it because I couldn't the main reason was I didn't want to be there and I could never tell him and it was just ridiculous you know being married at 15 I had known him for three months I didn't know him you know so I didn't want to be married but I had the impression that I would never want to be married again because this is what marriage is like but I did want children so I thought I'll have a baby they'll let me go I'll have a baby you know without having to get married and I never want to get married again which is not true now that's how I felt then and I thought that way I'll get pregnant if I refuse to have an abortion if they can't break me on that which I knew they couldn't once I was pregnant then they won't be able to do anything other than let me go and I won't have my husband come with me because I don't want to be married to him and I didn't really think he wanted to be married to me anyway and at that point I wanted to leave so badly but I felt like I was a bad person so I felt that I shouldn't make him come out - because that would be even worse up till after I left I still felt it's my fault I've been bad press and I've done things wrong I can't you know confront my crimes but I have to leave because I can't stand it because that's the whole like thing in Scientology is if anything goes wrong if you get sick if you break something it's your fault you know you've done something wrong it's never it's never like someone else's fault so that's what I thought so this was in October of 97 and in the bound in about December and the December early January I got pregnant and then I didn't tell anybody and I was very sick I had really bad morning sickness I couldn't eat I was throwing up about 20 times a day throwing up nothing's I wasn't eating just you know going through the motions but I would just I be working and I'd run downstairs to the bathroom and do it really quietly so no one near me and no one knew and I still was I was so terrified to leave but I decided because I was so sick I was so tired that I was just gonna take off I was going to get on a plane and go stay with my family in England for a little while while I like got better and then I would come back I planned on following their policies on leaving because if I just took off and didn't come back they would declare me a suppressive person which means that my mom my sister my grandma my whole family would never speak to me again I didn't want that to happen at that point I was planning it still being a Scientologist being a good Scientologist and all of that you just wanted to leave yeah in the sewer yeah I just couldn't take it anymore so my plan was to go to England for a little while then come back and do their process of leaving and then leave so that's what I did in the end of February one day I got a day off because no one knew what was going on I had been awarded you know one of the best staff member Awards and you know they thought it was great you know they thought it was a really good staff member everything was wonderful and one day I took the day off and I went and saw my dad and they told me I can't go see him but I went and saw him anyway and then the next morning I had him I had already packed all my clothes in my car and I just went to the airport and I went and checked my baggage and as I was walking through the security thing where you where they check your check on baggage my brother walks up my brother's in the Sea Org and he goes hi Astra and he was with a security guard from from where I work you're kiddin I'm not kidding what is this w it freaks me out but I had half expected it because I used to have to do that I used to be sent to the airport so get people who were taking off but I was very surprised that they knew exactly what terminal I was going to be in and everything and so he says hi Astra and I said hi Matthew and I walked straight into the bathroom and I figured I will just sit in the bathroom till my flight is boarding and I walked straight to the bathroom to get on my flight so I did i sat in the bathroom he sent a little girl in to tell me to come out and I said thank you and I stayed in there then after everyone had left the bathroom he came into the bathroom and I wouldn't open the stall and he climbed over and started talking to me you're kidding and I so finally I said okay I'll come out cuz anything he was saying I have mom on the phone mom wants to talk to you I was terrified of anyone talking me out of going I knew they'd be able to my I was I was sick I needed for like weeks I mean not to keep anything down I was exhausted I was like on the verge of a mental breakdown if I hadn't already had one she's this time so um I knew you know they just have to say a couple words and I was feeling guilty I was wanting to leave but I was feeling so guilty that what I was doing was so bad I had written notes to people saying you know crying saying this is all my fault I'm a horrible person I've done wrong but I have to go he left notes for people yeah for my dad and for my for my husband I didn't want to talk to anybody I had like this much resolve left to get on that plane so I said okay I'll come out so I just stayed in there for like another 10 minutes and then my plan was boarding because I knew what time I have figured you know 20 or 30 minutes before it took off it'd be boarding so I walked straight from the bathroom and I oh I had written a note to my brother and this was the first time anyone knew I was pregnant I said I'm pregnant I'm going to see my cousin I'll come back and I gave him that note and I kept walking I mean you gave him that note in the bathroom when I came out of the bathroom at that point and I gave him the note so you didn't even want to talk to him no I did not want to talk to him so um I started walking and then the security guard whose name is Mike Valiente um started saying to me you know we can work it out you know those are the typical lines we can work it out let's have this just down and talk let's calm down bla bla bla I just ignored him I I said read the note I just gave my brother and I kept walking I was waiting in line to board and my brother was standing there with me and I was crying I start crying people are looking at me and I said I'm just going to cool down to you know to get to get better and I will come back I won't get declared a suppressive person I'll come back and my brother says to me you're not being a sea org member obviously not the brightest thing to say to me at that point and I said well I'm not going to be anymore and he's like you need to speak to mom she's on the phone she feels really bad well I know how my mom is and she's not going to be saying all astir it's gonna be okay she's gonna be saying you know you need to go back you know because she's very very fanatical Sea Org member so so I was just trying to ignore him and I got my boarding pass then I was waiting in line to board I had my pastor on my ticket in my hand luckily I was holding on tightly because my brother got desperate and tried to yank them out of my hand and make a run for it so that I couldn't leave I was holding on tightly and he you know it was like a little back and forth and he let go what would these other people I finished it I don't know I mean I was crying I was a mess I knew people are looking at me but I didn't really know I mean I should have I would have called security other than the fact that want he's my brother and to you know I thought I'd get to Clara's press person if I did that so if you report anyone to the authorities so I was trying to keep it cool but I'm like oh my god he's trying to take my ticket on my passport so I can't believe you did that and I just got on the plane then a stewardess comes up to me with a note for my brother saying when you land call your mother you know cuz he'd been saying me she's on the phone I have on the phone you have to speed3 of to speak to her so I'm just crying I'm a total mess um I got um you know but you got on the plane I took off oh my god beautiful so my plan when I landed I had maybe 25 or 30 dollars was going to change it to English money and catch a bus to my aunts house I didn't even know I knew their address that was about it I thought I didn't I had no plan I had a you know thirty dollars in my pocket after the ticket throw my money on the ticket and but what I didn't know what I found out after is obviously that point they knew I was going I was going to England my mom was trying to get was arranging with where I worked with the security department to get people from the organization in England security to meet me at the airport which I knew it was that was going to happen because that was what happens if you can't stop them getting on the plane you have some ones they have organizations everywhere meet them at the airport and send them back or you know whatever they're going to do at that point so I figured that what's going to happen that was what I was expecting but what it actually happened was my dad had said if you have people at the airport she's gonna flip out I'll have my sister meet her then then you know because he was trying to do what was best for me so um I expected them to be at the airport so I got off the plane I changed my clothes and I put my hair up and I throw away my umbrella because I thought they'd say she had an umbrella with because it's pouring during that time and you know so I thought I look totally different so no one would recognize me because the people in England didn't know me they'd only recognize you know they give a description of what I was wearing so after all of this I finally walked out and there's my uncle now so happy because they have nothing to do with Scientology they don't like it at all and I was so happy but they had been waiting for like an hour because I was doing all this still getting myself all disguised so I was just so happy I was like oh my gosh I was tired I was sick and they were just gonna and then I could just go to their house they were going to take me so then we went to their house and then I called my dad and then I called my mom and my mom instantly started off crying saying you know you need to come back you need to stay in the Sea Org the main thing she did was she used my sister Zoey didn't even want to be there but I didn't know that she was saying Zoey's plan is to come to LA be in the Sea Org with you and you know what what am I going to tell her what am I going to tell her what should I tell her and she's saying you should get an abortion I know how it is to have a child when you're young it's - I was telling you this my mother was the main person who was like you have to get an abortion because I say I then ended up speaking to like the authorities in the Sea Org but I said some because once mentioned abortion and he said l ron hubbard says i said i'll ron Hubbard says abortion isn't okay and he said Alan Hubbard says it is okay because he says the spirit doesn't enter the body until right for births if you have an abortion before that and I knew that that was like a line going round if you have an abortion before you know when you know when the baby is only a few months old or a few weeks it doesn't affect anyone it just like killing an animal because the spirits not there so it doesn't matter anyway someone said that to me again and I said look if anyone says to me the word abortion I will not come back I don't want to hear it and I was just really mad I said I don't want to hear no one better speak to me about it I'll just hang up I refuse to speak to and I will not cooperate I said otherwise I will who are these people talking to you there was a talk of what's his name it's um I forgot his name he was he was a very high up executive but there was his job as also the chaplain because that was one of the the posts underneath and it was unfilled so he was doing it from the chaplain point of view chaplain telling you to get an abortion his name will come to me in a minute but um then I spoke to a woman named Kirsty will hair who is like my senior senior and I spoke to a girl who was a friend of mine and my husband's friend and I spoke to a man named Jeff Porter who's the chief of security international I know yeah yes yeah I have other things to say but um yeah he was just like you come back or you get declared cursed he was nice and saying just come back what sorted out the other man whose name will come to me was the one who mentioned abortion I said don't ever mention it again my mother continuously mentioned it regularly you should get an abortion what am I going to tell Zoey you should get an abortion how you gonna raise the baby you should get abortion she can abortion she got an abortion just repeatedly I was with Zoey at that point 13 probably 12 or 13 that was what got to me the most was the sister thinks I didn't know she don't want to be there and I thought I just ruined her entire life's plan and nice to everything up for her because you two couldn't talk about this you know in fact my mom never even told Zoey about it so he found out about it because she saw a report that my brother that my husband had written on my dad saying was all my dad's fault that later too but that's how's that we found out no one ever told her so that was what almost got to me but I just kept saying to her mom I can't live my life you know I've lived my life based off of what you want and I'm finally doing what I want I can't now change it because of what you're saying so he wants I said I feel very very bad I don't know what to say to her but all I know is the most important thing is you know I have to do what I want to do and this is what I want to do and she just never got it she never got it to this day that you know I'm doing what I want to do I said I'll go back on April 1st I'll be back on April 1st and what I actually came back two weeks earlier to be back and I stayed with my dad for a couple weeks I went and saw a doctor I started getting everything under control but were you able to start getting sleeping yeah cuz at my aunts house um you know she she got me some prenatal vitamins and folic acid which is important to take all these things I was able to start eating because part of the reason was I was very sick and the other part of the reason was the food there it's hard enough to eat when you're feeling well when I was feeling nauseous I could not stomach you know the food they serve now I was eating actual regular food and I could stomach it and my morning sickness went from being sick 10 times a day or more to once every couple days you know which is a bit more normal um yeah and I got a lot of rest and I you know I helped out there work for a couple hours a day and I talked with my aunt miles like a wonderful lady and you know she was really helping us see my mom saying I should get abortion what do you think I should do and she said you should do whatever you want to do you know my dad had said to me I'll do you do whatever you want to do and I'll support you you know he said if you wanted to keep the baby and he got in big trouble for this just for saying if you want to keep the baby I will support you you can come live with me you can work for me I'll help you and he got really big trouble my mom screamed it in you're a suppressive person I'm going to get you declared all kinds of stuff so anyway so I ended up going back I ended up going back two weeks before I said I would they didn't know I was in LA because they'd come and get me I stayed my dad I went and saw dr. got everything even more under control and then I went back on April first and that was really hard to do but it was really really really hard to do I was terrified but were you stronger feeling than you had been when you left yeah but I was still terrified and I was dreading the next month or everyone is going to take I was really really dreading it but I was a door never seen my family again so I did it I went back but I said I'm gonna stay with my dad and every day I will come in and I will get a confession I'll do everything you want but i'ma stay with my dad because I need proper food I need a nice bed I need all this stuff you can't provide that for me because you're you were having to get a security check yeah the confession go yeah yeah so what's the purpose of that when somebody's leaving why is that happening because well one of the reasons is Ellen Hubbard says in a policy the only reason that people want to leave is because they have overts and withholds they have things they've done that are wrong they're withholding and if you get them to admit these things and handle them they will go stop wanting to lose yeah they'll stop wanting to leave but it up when I was pregnant I was going to leave anyway but so that at that point it was more for a security purpose they wanted to find out most of the questions they asked me were security related you know do you have any documents have you stolen anything have you do you plan on going to a newspaper do you plan on a second you know speaking derogatory about Scientology you know those were those were the main questions so and then it was like have you done anything wrong on the 2d which means have you done anything like sexually bad like had bad thoughts you know I had sex with someone else nothing you put done but they of course are going to ask that because that's another thing they consider as a lot of the bad things you do are related to sexual things so I said I'm going to stay with my dad and I'm gonna do I'll come in every day and do whatever you want me to do but I must stay with my dad and they said you can't you have to sound I knew they'd say this you have to stay in your unit they said you can stay in your old room but you have to stay there and they said well what am I going to eat you know like Oh we'll work it out or whatever so I was arguing with the security guard that I wanted to stay with my dad and he finally said he was threatening me and then he finally said okay this process is going to take three or four days so if in three or four days you're not done you can go back and stay with your dad so I said okay write that down so they had the security chief Richard Metzler write down if you're not done you know you're going to be done with your process by this date and if you're not you can go back and stay with your dad while you finish it so four days later I don't even think they'd started my confession they may or may not have that's another big thing is you have to have a commission before you leave they have no one to do it that's why people are there for six months to a year but I knew they were gonna rush made a bit they didn't want the staff seeing me getting more and more pregnant give more cuz it would give people ideas to get pregnant you know that's what's being done in you weren't looking pregnant I didn't look pregnant at all till after I laughed you couldn't tell it all no one knew and I and everyone who the few people who did know we're told unknown certain terms can they tell anybody else so four days later I said okay I'm going back to stay at my dad's house because I'm not done yet and they said if you do that you'll be put under known in turbulator order which means if you do one more thing you know that upsets somebody for instance saying I'm going back to my dad's house or anything if you don't cooperate 100% you will then be declared a suppressive person so you might as well have said if you go back to death I should be declared a suppressive person right and I said well I have this note the security chief wrote it you know I got it written down because that's our big thing get everything in writing I have it written down and that I can go back and he said we you know we just wrote that so that you'd stay and you have no choice but to stay and if you go back this is what's going to happen grow so I just thought fine I'll just stick it out and just get this over with because I really had no choice at that point so then I started going in for my confessionals and I told you what the questions were already it was like you know what if you're done and at that point I still thought that the e meter works and if I didn't tell all I was in big trouble they'd know so I of course you know told every thought I ever had told all this stuff you know probably made up stuff to make it sound go because if you don't make a lot if you don't make it really sound like you've done something then they're not going to believe you and everyday then in the evening at about 6:00 I'd say I'm leaving and I go back to the room and I'd had to eat like a microwave meal like you know Stouffer's microwave macaroni and cheese or something which isn't what I wanted to eat at all I was hard having a hard time still looking that then during the day I was really tired I was tired all the time and during the day I would have to come back in in the morning and they were supposed to set me up a bed that I could nap in while I was waiting cuz I'd have to wait hours for my confessional but they never set it up I had to sleep on the floor in like a little tiny office on the floor with a blanket every day while waiting and then they were saying what are you doing sleeping all the time you should be doing your your ethics handling which means like reading policies ons and not always with Scientology policies on ethics and you know all kinds of stuff you know to handle nice I'd be a better person well some of you decide that you should stay yeah and have an abortion or that didn't work you know to stop me from doing anything against Scientology in the future mm-hmm at one point I was standing outside waiting for a ride back to where I was going to stay and a staff member from the religious Technology Center which is like the very highest organization in Scientology and these people like you're terrified of everyone is you have to call him Sir you can't do anything if you like someone once tripped one of them or something and was mean by accident by accident totally back sooner or bumped into them and he was like put on hard labor for accidentally tripping him this is like how scary these people are he comes up to me and he says what are you doing Astra and I said well sir I'm pregnant and I'm leaving and he said are you getting a confessional I said yes and I was of course not saying it like this I see yes sir you know and he said uh no actually let me rephrase that he said what are you doing and I said I'm pregnant so I'm leaving and he says Oh too late for an abortion and I said no unbelievable so then he said are you gonna go confessional I said yes it was a you know I wish I can remember his name he said he had a little sports car used to drive around in the license plates at standard tach abbreviated on and he was very high up very well-known but I forget his name if someone told it to me I would be able to say yeah that's his name he was scary he's like screaming people get on their face spit on them things like that I saw him do that and grab people and so I was terrified of him that he said Oh too late for an abortion oh jeez I couldn't believe he even said that so then I continued getting my confession I finished that I had to read some policies and I had to write what's called knowledge reports on people who I thought done bad things and then I had to sign an affidavit I knew I was going to have to sign that that's another thing to have you do before you leave and they write down all the bad things you've said you've done and then they make you write up all the winds you've had in Scientology which of course have to make sound great because if you don't you're back for more confessionals and you're not leaving till you sound like you love Scientology and you're leaving because you did bad things so I wasn't about to disagree with anything they said I wrote up in Scientology you know I've learned to communicate when I came into the Sea Org you know I was very out ethics and they really helped me and if it wasn't for them I don't know where I would have ended up I just made it sound I just I knew what I had to say and I said it and I also knew that whatever I signed was not legal because they said you can't leave unless you sign this if you sign it you're going to be declared suppressive person your family will never see you again if you don't sign if you don't sign it so you better sign it before you leave you have to you have no choice that's not legal cuz that's duress so I kind of had an idea of that yeah so that's how I'm just kind of sign and I just and I wasn't planning on speaking out or anything I still thought I want to be a Scientologist etc even after all of this you still wanted to be a song because you're so indoctrinated into the fact that it's your fault whatever happens if you don't want to be there it's your fault you've been saying out ethics you're a bad person you're irresponsible you know you can't confront things that I believe that but I also just physically immensely can't take it anymore so I was leaving thinking I was a horrible person you just weren't good enough to be yeah I wasn't good enough I couldn't make it I didn't have what it takes yeah so I would signed it and and then I left and they searched through my car and through my room to make sure I wasn't taking anything that belonged to them or that was any documents or anything like that they had when I was there put together put together my bill and given it to me they give you a bill for he was an example I did like a computer course on how to learn to operate their computers I did a course on how to do my job they had a restructure of their management I did several courses on you know they had written a bunch of new policies on their new management I had done that and then I had gotten SEC texts confessionals hours and hours and hours and hours of them I got them before because if you go on that high posts in like certain areas you have to get one before you go in they can make sure you're qualified I done all of this I had done you know just two or three things or actual like Scientology spiritual things I did the purification rundown and a couple courses the reason I'm saying that is the policy about freeloaders was written because apparently people used to go into the Sea Org just so they could get free service and then leave because you don't have to pay for it a few on staff most of the time so they wrote this policy that if you leave you have to pay the Mac for everything I mean the whole thing's ridiculous but I hadn't even done Scientology I just done like training yeah so they give me my bill is eighty nine thousand dollars and even I was in shock I was like I've only been here for four and a half years and I owe eighty nine thousand dollars but I thought oh I'm gonna have to figure out how to pay and I started I'm so scared that I'm gonna have to pay this I started working out a budget before I left okay I'm going to work full-time I'll make $400 a week I'll send them a hundred all is every week in ten years I'll have it paid off hopefully before then I'll get a better paying job and I was writing it all down and trying to figure out how much stuff for the baby would cost I could still send them like a quarter a half of my money and my mom had said to my dad you know Astra's freeloader billa's and he said no and she said it's eighty-nine thousand dollars but it's not your problem she's going to have to pay it so as my mom's point of view so then after I laughed that was basically it except they called me several times because they wanted me to come in for interviews on various investigations they were doing and I didn't want to come in I was done but I got more threat so I had to and I was asked about when you did this job three years ago did you say this to somebody did you tell people they could take a vacation without first getting a confessional things like that so I had to go back and several times for that and then that was about it except I got called and sent mail regularly about my free voter bill and they were asking me get your dad to help you pay it you know don't you have some money somewhere doesn't your dad have some money can't you take a loan out to pay this money than them I once sent them $20 just to say that I had sent suddenly my mom was like just start sending money just start and soon you're be able to pay it off that was all I ever sent $20 or $25 when I was 8 months pregnant my husband when I had left I had also told him it's all my fault I'm totally responsible I feel really bad what I've done to you so you don't have to pay me anything you know have to pay child support I don't expect you I want you to be able to stand this year you know but he said I want to be there when she's born I want to see her etc and I was you know at the time fine with that you know I wasn't gonna keep him from seeing her but when I was 8 months pregnant I all of a sudden got a letter from him and he said I've been thinking about it and I knew he'd been told yet to do this and I've decided that you know being zero is the most important thing I have this letter so the exact words but something like being the source the most important thing and so I've decided not to seek a and not to see you and you know just just be in the Sea Org and that's it and I hope you understand my decision I thought he could have at least called me at least had the guts to come yet so I thought fine you know I'll just leave it so I had Kate and his parents I let them come see her because they were nice and I was gonna stop them I don't you know want to stop her family from seeing her and they're her family so they came every every two weeks about came to see her came to visit for one morning how are you how did you feel about your baby I was so happy because of my pregnancy other than the morning sickness went really well and when I had her it went really well and I was just really really happy I was just like amazed I couldn't I couldn't believe I was just I couldn't believe I'd not leave and I had my baby and you know I had done it I was just like oh my god I was so happy I didn't care that I was doing it by myself I didn't care about anything I was just like you know I've done I was so amazed that I've been able to do what I wanted to finally that I'd like pushed it all the way through and you know not gone back and relented not had an abortion and then she was like sitting there and I just couldn't believe it it was amazing so um then my mom I called my mom and she's like oh I'm proud of you and she was nice about it of course because she's not going to be you know on the phone when I just had a baby she's not going to be like hostile Jason my ex-husband's parents were coming to see her then when she's about six months old I had been working full-time while I was pregnant up to the day I had her I was working and then I started working again within a week afterwards but then of course it was not as many hours I wasn't working full-time I started not having any money you know to even be able to pay for things to her to help pay for food or anything and it got slipping to being ridiculous and I felt I was draining money away from my father so then I started thinking and at this point I had changed my mind about Scientology I had come to realize what it really was and how had that happened mainly you know it was my dad and I going back and forth because neither of us thought it was really bad he wanted me to leave the CEO he thought this year was really bad but going back and forth swapping stories and me telling him more and more and as I told him more and more about what had happened I realized more and more how bad this was you know as I told him I wasn't allowed to make phone calls - I was told I couldn't see you when I used to come and see you it was in secret and he had no nose yeah no nacked when I told you I was going to school I wasn't like as I'm saying these things I was coming to realise and as we talked back and forth that's what's so and the very best thing if you have so I'm going to talk about it with who then says that to this you know doesn't say you know don't talk about it and doesn't say well that's all your fault I've come to realize it is not your fault and you have someone backing you up you know and it just was like a it just came about like that so realizing more and more and both of us got to the point where like oh my god you know so um that's really how it came about and then I read a book I want Hubbard man that Messiah or a madman but Ben Gordon yeah I just kind of slipped through it I didn't read the whole thing but I read parts of it and that was it you know I had had enough at that point but I wasn't gonna say anything I still wanted my relationship with my mother my grandmother and my brother but um anyway so I'd gotten to the point where I really felt that I needed to get Jason Bay child support and I no longer felt it's all my fault I've done wrong so I'm in a handle that I felt like a it's a not necessarily him but Scientology in general so he should either get a job you know or they should as part of his pay paying some money that he could pay his child support to get paid $45 a week there so I wrote him a letter I said you know I've been thinking about it and I really do need to child support you are her father you are responsible no no answer or no reply I wrote another letter a couple months later no reply I started calling finally when she's about a year old it arranged a meeting they said come in don't bring the baby but come in and you'll speak to the lawyer at us and speak to Jason we'll get something worked out because he had said I'll pay you a quarter of my pay every week it's like seven dollars or was that like like ten or twelve dollars a week and I said you know that's money like for you to buy shampoo I'm not going to take away you know your shampoo money it's ridiculous I knew how it was to get $45 a week when you got paid and that's horrible and I'm not a horrible person I wasn't going to take away the few dollars he had that's not what I wanted it wouldn't help me anyway you know $40 a month is just nothing so I went in there I took her with me and everyone anywhere without her at that point really and I wasn't about to leave her just because I said don't bring her like don't let him see her it might you know upset him or something so I brought her with me anyway they had because he had never seen her he had never ever seen or he'd seen a picture because his parents showed him a picture because I had given them pictures at six months when I had first written water about Charles but all of sudden her parents disappeared never heard from them no never heard from them again and I realized after a period of time that that was why and I asked Jason when I saw him I said your parents haven't heard him in six months myiasis do you know and he said yes I got upset you know as mad you're asking for child support I told him not to see you anymore I was like wow he only admitted it to the knee at that point he's trying to get on my good side so he was trying to be honest with me try and get on my good side so I'd stopped asking for child support so I get there and they have Halina Kobrin who's a lawyer and OSA no Julio and she said I'm just here to help explain to so you understand you know the laws and I dealt with cases like this before so you understand so I said okay and she says she's like well Scientology does isn't obligated to pay anything and I said I know that I just said jason's obligated to pay and he works here so either has to get a job or you know you guys pay pay him to pay me pay him more money so that he can pay me transfer I said I don't think I'm not asking Scientology to pay I'm not saying Scientology's obligated to pay me one penny he is obligated so she said well I've dealt with cases like this before and if it went before a judge a judge would say he has the right to work wherever he wants he's in a religious organization so he doesn't have to pay and I said because see when we got divorced i I put I want full custody Lyon physical and he didn't contest the divorce so basically that's what the divorce said and it said visitation to be determined by me and child support to be determined by a judge and since I wasn't originally an asking for it I never want when and got like a hearing to determine it so I said well I'll just go get a hearing and have the judge determine how much Jason should pay so that so the Jason knows what he's legally obligated to pay they didn't want that of course and I said look from what I've studied the judge always makes the decision based on the best interest of the child not the parent they don't care you know about the parent they care about the child you're feeling much stronger by I was mad I wasn't going to listen I knew they were just lying to me I knew it and the judge is going to say the child's I need to determine the child's best interest and you go get a job and child support is based on what the parent can make not what they do make so if they choose to work at a job where they make forty five dollars that doesn't mean they only have to pay out of that money that means they need to go get a proper job they choose to only work one day a week they can't say well I'm only gonna pay child support out of my one day a week pay no they have to go get a proper job if they can he has a college education he could go get a job a lease paying minimum wage obviously paying you know a lot more than that so I said look this this is what I know this is what the judge is going to say you know no one knows for sure what a judge is going to say but this is what I guarantee in my opinion judge is going to say and they said no no no no and I said okay here's what I'm going to do I'm gonna go speak to a lawyer I'm asking what he says if he says what I say no I'm just going to go get a hearing I'm not suing because if I sued I get to color I still would didn't want to get declared I said I'm not suing I'm just gonna go get this hearing so that Jason knows what he's obligated to pay so they said fine so I spoke to a lawyer and he said exactly what I said he said I can't guarantee what a judge is going to say but yeah I definitely think you're right the judge can determine the best interest of your daughter so then I called them back and I said this is what the lawyer said and I spoke to someone at Ossa and I said this is what the lawyer said so I'm going to go get this hearing and he started yelling at me threatening me saying what are you trying to do are you trying to get in trouble what are you really trying to do here really what are your intentions things like that I said it's exactly what I said I simply going to go get this hearing so then he then they started saying oh well in exchange instead of paying child support we're going to help you financially we're going to help you study policies from Ellen Hubbard on finances so you can get your finances in order and learn how to make more money and I said I don't think so the only thing I need to do is finish my education which I completely missed and then continue it and it's going to be a long process that's going to take several years and in the future I will make a lot more money and then maybe and then at that point when I have enough money to support her all by myself I'll stop asking you for child support I'm only asking now because I have to have no choice I'm like desperate and they're like no we'll help you we'll help you sort it all I said that's not what I need I'm already sorting it out I'm already getting you know my high school education finished in the minister college so that didn't go over well and then so then Jason started saying to me oh I want to see Kate I want to build a relationship with her and I knew see I was never going to stop him or his parents I wasn't because I didn't feel it was my place to say they can't see you they can't see her so but I knew that he was just saying this to get on my good side so I'd stop asking for child support and that's wrong and I also knew that it was going to change that in a month later he'd say I can't see her anymore because he was being told he couldn't see her now he's being told to see her so so I said you know that this wasn't just Jason changing his mind how did you know who I knew him for one I've been married to him for like four and a half years and I knew from my old job of exactly what's done I would have been my job to tell him do this now do this and I also knew that post changed a lot and different people come in with different opinions and because this was a relatively new thing of people leaving and having a baby it wasn't sorted out and they didn't really know what they were doing so opinions were being thrown back and forth and actually I know even more because I asked him I said why did you write to me and tell her tell me you couldn't see her were you told to do that and he said yes you know he said I was shown these policies and I was you know and then I decided you know it's an help that it was the best thing and same thing was telling his parents not to see her anymore so he told me he was told that but I knew already you know so then I said okay I'll think about it because he was now saying he wanted a relationship with her and I thought about it and I thought okay well I'm not going to say no but I'm in a testin because I personally don't think I had read if your if your child has a parent that's going to be there some of the time but it's not set in stone and I'll come see them once a week or you know even once every two weeks if it's just going to be there kind of there and they're kind of not and they show up once in a while it's better than not there at all because it's so hard on a child fritata is so unstable izing for them in and out of their lives and I thought I can't have this for us so I said to him I said how about this if I drop the child support thing if I just don't ask you for it anymore you don't have to see her if you don't want he said okay so then it was obvious right there that that's all it was he didn't actually want to build a relationship with her even though he'd already seen her twice so I thought was the very best thing for her it's so much more important that she just grows up normal doesn't have any you know Scientology in her life at all that's so much more important in child support I'll just had to make do so you do up the gelled suppose I just dropped in and I just said fine forget it you know I had to do what's very best for her so I just started working harder you know stuff like that so um yes at that point that was about it his mom called me before I told him okay you can drop it his mom called me and said Jason said we can see Kate again and I said well why did you need his permission she couldn't answer that and then I said okay you can see her all I need to she was just and I was really nice to her I said I understand you know we weren't mad at each other what yelling it wasn't because I was always we were always French very nice lady and I really felt bad for her I really felt bad because she's so torn because she's in Scientology it didn't agree with what Jason was doing wanted to see Kate and I knew she was really torn but in the end I can't think about that I got to think about Kate and that's what I said when I went in there I said I'm not here to cause trouble I'm not here to make a problem but I'm the only one in this room who cares about her well-being I'm the only one said you know I'm the only one here for she can't speak for herself I have to have a one-track mind I have to go I have to be the one who's only thinking about her and not thinking about other people and you know their problems and things like that so when I was talking to his mother I said I said you can see her that's fine you can see her again I just need you to do one thing I need you to promise that if Jason asked you not to see her again you won't agree to it again you've already you know stepped out of her life once she's older now she'll remember you I cannot have you do that and she said I don't think Jason will ask me to do that I said but if he did if he does is you know it's likely he could if he does ask you that will you promise not to do that and she couldn't promise she said I can't promise because you know what if what if you get declared she saw I don't think that's going to happen but what if it did you know then I'd have to stop seeing her so I said well when you can promise you you won't step out of her life just because someone says you have to you know then you can see her and then I just didn't hear from her and you ever heard from her she sent me a card like a week later saying you know why haven't we heard from you but she knew I don't how we ended the conversation if you could just promise that then then you can see her and yeah I never heard from them ever ever again never again okay not even a car not even a card for her birthday you know nothing not even Christmas nothing so that was that was the end of that okay sure is a lucky little girl yeah she's beautiful thank you so yeah but I think you know she's we lived with my dad so she has Zoey to play with and she has my dad it's like a father figure until she gets another one so you know I don't think she's um you know if it was just me and like an apartment by myself that would be really horrible you might be horrible for her but she's she's doing fine but I'm gonna have a hard time I about that I've always thought what am I going to tell her so I'm not gonna say your father is a horrible horrible person and he abandoned you because you should never say things like that and then that would make her feel worse so I guess I'm gonna just have to do it I don't know no idea no idea when she's she hasn't asked me at she's at nine and two and a half just and said where's my daddy but she knows what a daddy is she knows I have a daddy so it's coming soon and I really have absolutely no idea what I'm supposed to say to her well she knows you love her yeah and she knows your dad loves her yeah and your sister loves him yeah so she's got a wonderful family here in terms of how she's doing and how she's gonna grow up I think it's gonna be you

Channel: Mark Bunker

Views: 320,869

Rating: 4.7096772 out of 5

Keywords: Scientology, Mark Bunker, Knowledge Report, XENU TV, Astra Woodcraft, The Lisa McPherson Trust, Stacy Brooks

Id: AtG0OX3t-fw

Length: 48min 33sec (2913 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 15 2014