Sadhguru & Javed Akhtar on Reason, Faith and Its Place in the Society

[Music] we've talked of the material we've talked of the political we've talked of entertainment and art and cinema next up we're going to talk about faith in reason and its place in society and the various forms that faith is taking in the modern world we have Jaggi Vasudev Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev the head of Ischia foundation that has centers across a hundred and sixty cities across the world two hundred to two million volunteers and of and a following that is passionate and urban and mystical with him we have Javed Akhtar lyricist script writer legendary man of cinema but also somebody who is a committed and fierce rationalist both of them will be talking about the space for faith and reason in our society please welcome them on stage you have a passion for snakes SUVs bikes helicopters adventure travel you have a flair for entrepreneurship your passion is the construction business and your asset guru can you spell out what is the core philosophy of your foundation of your practices and how do these two aspects of you sit together good evening everyone first of all let me correct that I have no passion for snakes or SUVs or helicopters I'm just passionate about life and just about anything that I do it's not about this or that I do not know how to do anything without absolute involvement so passion is a word that people attach but it's just that just about anything that I do I do not know how to do it without absolute involvement because it's only with involvement one knows life it doesn't matter whether you're doing business or art or music spirituality doesn't matter what you're doing if you're not involved you'll miss it all so I'm just involved these are all names that people attach there's only a few things that people have seen well you know I'll come back to this strand of materialism sitting well with spirituality but before that you know you say that what you your philosophy is not even a teaching it's a technology and it just works what is that can you articulate it and what does it mean when they have to be personal endeavor one doesn't have to be a learner but you can just achieve a technology so this is there is no philosophy because generally philosophies are just fantastic explanations for those aspects of life which can never be explained so they essentially we're here whatever you think about it is just your thought but the fact of it is if you look at this as a human being this human mechanism is the most sophisticated technology on the planet whatever other gadgets that we have they all come out of it out of this one this is the most sophisticated mechanism you see today people are deeply engrossed in their iPhones but what would I this is the thing this is the gadget if you pay enough attention to this you would understand how to operate this at its highest possible mode so the whole process that we refer to as spiritual is just this so that this mechanism attains its fullest capability and possibility that it doesn't just operate in a minimalistic way so that's why it's a technology philosophies have happened because of the misunderstanding the technology otherwise essentially only technologies were transmitted you might if you look back and see there were no teachings in this country there were only methods methods how to do it how to make this happen at its highest possible level so once we enter this fear being a subjective dimension of life you have a body you have a mind you have emotions you have energy supporting this all these three so when we handle all these four dimensions some of it may not come under the purview of rudimentary logic and reason that a lot of people subscribe to because of that rudimentary level of reasoning they think it's beyond reason it is very much in reason if you probe into it we can go into it but in fact you know before we go further with that in the past you said yes that you know in India there's always been methods there hasn't been teachings but the purpose of spirituality was to some extent to disconnect people from desire from materialism to understand the limits of that why is it that with the Isha Foundation's philosophy just self-actualization is the goal you know expressing yourself to the maximum you can rather than to understand the finiteness of that say yeah this understanding that spiritual means you have to disassociate you with desire let's understand it this way if you desire for food if you desire for money if you desire for a piece of land on this planet if this is considered greed now you want to know the very source of creation this is super green isn't it so where is the question of dissociating it is evolution of desire not associating with desire your desire is evolved when you are a five-year-old child what you desired for completely fell away when you were 10 what you desire for when you were 10 completely was meaningless when you're 15 what you desired as 15 when you're 30 doesn't make any sense so your desire is evolving if you evolve very slowly you will go at this pace if you go your experience and think beyond and reason beyond where you are right now as you sit here if you understand that after all you and me are mortal whatever we may do when you understand your motto naturally the question of what is beyond where did I come from where will I go this is naturally in the purview of human intellect see if you are not given ready-made answers by somebody it is very very natural that every human intellect will inquire where did I come from where will I go what is the nature of my existence so this is not dissociating from desire this is just evolving your desire to a new possibility I'm going to bring Javid selves into the conversation in a bit Javed sir I just want to prove this a little more I'll finish it Sadhguru G Javed Sahab this is called theatrical timing you've got a clap for saying nothing actually [Laughter] Sadhguru G you know we we've called our session five stars fixes because and the reason I'm saying this is because perhaps it's something that one doesn't understand that to be a part of your course which actually a lot of my friends have taken and I must admit that it does transform them the breathing techniques they come back , people but it costs a lot how is your spirituality your technique your old technology is not available for the poor I want you to understand this 70% of ISA Foundation's work is in rural India where it's 100% free I'm just rubbing you to keep that 70% actor so you need to understand this we charge one way in the United States another way in UK another way in Lebanon anna devane Zelenka another way in India one way in Mumbai one way in there some one way in a local town and in the village it's free you've got to give you accountants to the government and above all the volume of work our volunteers are doing is all funded by this the amount of medical work free medical work that's happening education very involved with about thirty six thousand children right now actively with the largest ecological moment in the country nowhere in the history of independent India has this happened in any state Tamil Nadu is green cover has gone up 7.2% in a matter of eight years with 17 million living trees that we have planted so where does money come from all this guru that doesn't answer my question because you do a lot of rural outreach and one knows that those who do not have money should come and take it in the village it's free no I I was talking about now the thing is five-star culture people want air-conditioned rooms people want all the comfort and they want it free how does it come somebody has to pay for it to finish my question it's not about you charging the rich which is fine for the well-being I was asking whether your breathing techniques your technology of self-actualization whether that is available to the poor your meditative techniques you know not use I'm talking about the meditative techniques all the inner engineering programs in the villages are free 100% free one other question which is about your central philosophy is to do with yoga and with breathing techniques but there is also another I would like to dissociate from that word philosophy technology is connected with breathing techniques but you also believe in in past life you know my colleagues spent a week with you at the foundation and wrote a big piece and he said that their people feel that they can see disembodied selves that you know your wife you felt was a sister from the past life you know we've had James Randi here who was shooting through this kind of faith system and you said something very interesting to my colleague you know when he was being skeptical about this whole idea of past life and seeing spirits that are disembodied you said the reason you disbelieve all this is because your mind is in the UK and Greenwich Mean Time you know and not in India so is it really about conditioning of minds it is not about conditioning of minds let's look at it this way when you were born you were not made like this isn't it you are so small now this much happen how so what you call as my body is an accumulation accumulation it's just a piece of planet that you accumulate through the food that you eat what you call as my mind is a heap of impressions which you also accumulate or a period of time so your body is an accumulation your mind is an accumulation what you accumulate at the most you can claim it's yours but you cannot say it's me isn't it it's like the five percent of the universe that we understand now one of the scientists will tell you no no I'm not talking about that say right now whatever you accumulate you can claim it's yours but you cannot claim it's mean isn't it what you accumulate cannot be you isn't it so you gathered your body you gathered the whole volume of your mind so what the hell are you never even looked at isn't it you're making assumptions so your personality your ideologies everything picked up everything accumulated you can accumulate and keep it and use it but you can never claim it's mind everybody should get this now if you don't get it now you'll get it from the maggots sub-group use you had you had amount of sin a moment when you were young when you felt that you were instantly transformed you don't speak of it much but you also you know you also told people that you would die at 42 but you didn't so I'm sorry to disappoint you but that again puts all this realm into you know I mean I'm somebody in the middle zone people who who know me well always tease me about how I try to be a rationalist but I always believe in the paranormal but you know there is no precision to it so how you know how do you square with that what would your deputies say if you said something you know the paranormal is not empirical so these are all words we keep on inventing more words for all this this is just lying in the sense now when you talk about past lives present life I always tell people do not ever believe these things at the same time do not be a fool and disbelieve it because belief and disbelief means just this you believe something or you disbelieve something essentially means you are not straight enough to admit that you do not know you have not understood the immensity of I do not know because I do not know is it tremendous possibility only if you see I do not know the possibility of knowing ever arises in you so this must be clearly demarcated see the moment you say and religious you refer to yourself as a believer the moment you refer to somebody as spiritual you refer to him as a seeker who can see only one who is realized that he does not know can seek if he thinks he knows why will he seek if we come to you Javed sir now start for seeking Joe it's up you have to not be theatrical with me will we live in a country yeah of great faiths you are part of a creative space that very often expresses stories through faith you're a committed rationalist you know if we see the finiteness of faith would you accept that there's a finiteness to just reason as well first of all I think before starting any discussion one should always decide on the meaning of words maybe you mean something by faith and I am understanding something else what is faith and what is the difference between faith and belief I believe I am in Goa I believe there is a place called North Pole I believe that the two pies a poor country I believe that Germany is a rich country is it my faith why it is not my faith I'll tell you why cuz not by faith and white is my belief because it is reasonable anything any belief which is devoid of logic reason rational evidence witness that is faith anything which is devoid of all the logic all the reason all the ration all the witness all the evidence that have failed and I really wonder what is the difference between faith and his stupidity because that is it has property they have the same definition I am willing to I am willing to accept belief but it has to have some rationale some reason if you don't have any you disarm me from reason logic now when you say that whatever mind is is accumulated my body is accumulated that is not me it is like saying that as long as you can peel the onion you are not finding the onion Jesus killed our onion this accumulation this accumulation is me if you eradicate this accumulation I don't exist that's all Javad sub I think I should respond to this okay all right now you being in nagpur right now for sure is you believe that you being in goa right now is a reality you better grasp courage you just give me a moment there's a reverberation here and B country or each other could you just turn the speakers towards us or maybe give Satguru G another mic because we cannot that I can't understand him I can't even hear me I I don't know about the battle between faith and reason but wit certainly has its place in society probably the microphones are arranged in such a way because anyway you and if you hear you may understand thanks for the compliments of guys three yeah yeah so it will have come on man so now I'll repeat for you you believing that you're in Nagpur is for sure belief but you're in Goa is a reality whether you believe it or you don't believe it that's how it is so there is a difference between reality and belief if you think whatever you believe is true I want you to understand we can make you believe just about anything if you work hard enough on you we can make you believe anything and when you believe just about anything that is what we are referring to as fate or it's passing off as religion or faith will come to this now no let's let me be the moderator one point nobody watchin I will I'll be wrong maybe wrong logic the people in the audience may I read it shall not be corrected because it will not be a stolen energy may I retain the esthetics may I retain the aesthetics of this session I really don't need anybody telling me that I'm not going to let him talk I will let him talk can we please keep the aesthetics of this alive so so this whole presumption and the way this is going is coming from a certain fundamental presumption because even when I met Javed Sahab last time he was telling me that some guru told him not to use his mind I do not know which go to set this one thing is clear the advice has been taken seriously never taken any I have I have not taken any guru seriously I promise you that in the rich tradition in the rich tradition of the argumentative Indians yeah it remained with the argument it never got personal both of you so I just wanted to come back job itself to this whole issue of of the finiteness of a reason you know we just saw Ramanujan for instance he was intuitive he didn't know how he arrived at at that Matt but he arrived at it I have absolutely no argument with the fact that reason is the highest condition of man as we understand it but is there not space for something beyond I empirical understanding course but there is no hero around it there is nothing like it spiritual about it when you look at the fan and that the fan is running on full speed you can't see the blades it doesn't mean there are no trains you know when you think very quickly you may not see the reason but when you will sit back and analyze it if the conclusion is right then there is a logical step behind it you have not seen it at that moment because your conscious mind is not the only mind you have many parts of the mind you lose a key and you try to remember you can't and then you're talking to somebody else and some certainly you remember where you have kept the key because a part of your brain was working on it so brain is a very complicated machine mind is the most sophisticated computer on in this universe at the moment so you have to understand the functioning if Ramanujam understood it he understood it in a language which he knew why he did not understand in Chinese though he proved that is not possible symmetry what will come will come from your mind you are nothing but your mind and if that is really captured you don't exist but Ramanujan actually believed that the goddess was giving him that intuition how do you reconcile that would you say that he was something I mean after all he was a human being so what he wouldn't be right all the time sub-group before I come back to you Javed 7 another function of faith is you know in its in its refined form not as religion not as public religion but as faith can sometimes be the impulse for also the most noble of human endeavor whether we are about it the faith can make you do wonderful things and the worst thing possible these society embers are people of faith if they would have been reasonable they wouldn't have done that but but equally Jove itself faith is a blind power faith paralyzes your mind and now you are capable of doing something exceptionally good and something exceptionally bad but you are out of control you can go either way what about the ultra rationalist the Communists the Stalinist regimes no no no they are not rational is there communism they have a fit they believe in communism think I am not only against religion with spiritualism which is the debris of religion I am I am again v if communism is your faith then you are half bad and the religious person that's well quit so so what do you live with then if you don't live with a belief system what do you live with right you know you're talking of extremities but how about how about common sense [Applause] it'll do for the moment I'm going to come back Javed sir with a scientific question for you which is about stories human-beings need stories to live with you know we've met a lot of scientists a lot of astrophysicists even in science there is the idea of the story I don't know much about it and if you question me too much I'll falter but you know the universe professor Gunnison was telling us that we understand only 5% of the universe there's 95% we don't understand and we both met Richard Dawkins in Jaipur earlier this year and he was suggesting that outside of this universe there could be multiverses now that is not something we know it is a belief in in something that is not a believed it is a guess maybe maybe not know it's a story you live with why can't we live with other stories in the meantime which give people a sense of such in their life a sense of solace you see what is the problem that as long as you have curiosity as long as and he said very rightly and I totally agree with him that you should be humble enough to accept that there are many things that you don't know and only then you research what is wrong with religions that you know everything they can tell you how to make a universal for easy lessons they can they will tell you whatever you were before you were born and where will you go after your death and so on so they have all the answers that's it the problem Sakura gee that's so that's you know when you said that essentially the spiritual person is a seeker why is it that gurus give the answers I don't know but you guru gave an answer I haven't met one like that if you've met they're all the wrong ones I couldn't help it no go to ever give an answer gurus only give methods to deepen your process I asked you what your method was so now we're talking about thought and the event itself is called think so let me let's just look at this your thought your thought is essentially coming from the information that is already there in your mind the data that is there in your mind it's complex but it is within the limited data that you have how did you gather this data this data you gathered through the agencies of five senses by seeing by hearing smelling tasting and touching this is the way it's gone into you these are the five instruments which are taking in all the data in your wakefulness and sleep this data is being gathered all the time even in your sleep in deep sleep if I say something we can hypnotize you and make you remember that actually because even in sleep you're recording but it is only through these five senses these five senses are not reliable in the sense if I touch this table it would my hand will tell me it's cool but if I lowered my body temperature and touch it my hand will tell me it's wrong so it doesn't say anything about that it only tells me the information that is necessary for my survival if survival is all you're seeking these five senses are okay but if you're seeking something beyond survival you need to expand the dimension of your perception so the whole spiritual process is about how to expand your perception because only what you perceive is life rest is just imagination if you want to be in touch with reality you have to enhance your perception and just assuming what see this thing happened across the history when people believed the planet is flat somebody said it's around he got killed okay now everybody thought they can only walk somebody says I can fly he was almost killed so this has happened continuously because people believing whatever I do not know cannot exist is the crown of ignorance Jove it's up that's that's a Wally that I hand to you you know that at every lat every point in history the limits of reality has been pushed by those who imagine or have faith in something that doesn't yet exist not at all not at all first of all it's not I mean the first thing if spiritualist will do will try to shake your confidence in the five senses that you have only then he can control you now if you think that you will believe him any other thing then take a person do an operation on him disconnect him with his brain and then let us see how he expands its personality whatever expansion happens happens in your mind and you cannot undermine it and whoever suggests that that is to be undermined is playing the very dangerous game with you that's what then you will not have any discretion how will you decide whatever whatever he's saying is right or wrong and whatever he's saying is you here using his brain he doesn't want you to use you obey from there this concept um have it come from well from their testimony it has come from the mind even if you think that the mind is not everything that too has come from the mind if you don't just mind how do you trust this part good job it's up yeah you said the five senses as a writer as an artist as a human being yeah don't you sometimes have a sixth sense about something please understand you see there are like between countries there are no man lands between India and Pakistan between India and China that Roman family in you between your subconscious and between your conscious mind there is a Roman land and what happens that if you rely only on your current thinking on your mind a brain is also like how your mind your conscious mind is your living room but then you have other rooms you have a taste you have bedrooms you have basements within your brain then you relax and you allow the other part of your mind to take over then your conscious mind and your subconscious they work together in partnership and ultimately something comes which comes from you move comes from your mind but from that part of mind which more often than not you are not using that's all but it is the mind ultimately [Applause] now Kenneth we're talking about stories can I say his story stories a Nutella story yeah sure please but just speak a bit louder yes on a certain day a lady went to sleep in her sleep she had a dream in her dream she saw a hunk of a man standing there staring at her he started coming closer and closer he came so close she could even feel his breath and she trembled not in fear and then she asked what will you do to me the man said well lady it's your dream now what happens in your mind is just essentially you dream just being in a constant state of flowing thoughts all the time 24 hours thoughts are flowing this is not this does not signify intelligence this suggests diarrhea mental diarrhea constantly it is on and on and on now if one has made an effort one has strived to look beyond the firmament of the mind one would know other dimensions simply denying that nothing like that exists because I do not know it is I don't know he doesn't need comments security but you just said that the five senses are unreliable but just to come back to that license is being unreliable let me come to this right now what your vision visual sense understands his light many of the creatures on the planet understand it as darkness isn't it so you sit with an owl and start an argument as to which is light and which is darkness you will end up with an endless argument so who is right you insist you're right but that is the whole problem people insisting that their right is the whole problem on the planet what's a guru if if the whole point of your technology is to make people actual eyes themselves why in the modern world is there still cult creation why does your photograph adorn every devotees who or every practitioners home why do they not just take the technology and become independent spirits themselves see you don't mind if you don't mind if a rock stars picture is in somebody's house okay but people he lives a bad life he is drugged out but you don't mind if a film stars picture is there it doesn't matter if the 12 girls from the Kingfisher calender don't your house you do not matter but you have something with me what is the problem I'll tell you what the rock yeah I'll tell you I'll job itself I'll come to you but I'll tell you what my problem with that is is that by and large what Javed Sahab was saying earlier is that with the following of a guru even if the Guru doesn't want it there is a giving up of oneself there's a subjugation of one's own thinking to a you know to a guru and that takes people sometimes to very dark places you know you're willing to kill for a guru you may not be willing to kill for the film star but they do they don't didn't you come in Tamil not one see people will kill for the film star you know if a film star is having a wonderful time you don't resent if a rock star is having a wonderful time I mean he's doing what in his vocation in his profession you don't reason if a guru is going put in his profession is having a good time why should you return it some not definitely what's your problem sure now this is this is the operation of rationalism the equation should hold good they then have good time job [Applause] Sakuragi one quick question I think my colleague is going to ring the bell any minute you know I saw a film recently in America made by a young man and it's called the truce - the true story of a fake guru he dressed himself up as a guru and he went and he met a whole lot of people he listened to their sorrows he listened to their stories he put three pictures in front of them he brought them into this sense of ecstasy inhalation and they began to transform themselves they completely believed in him and they began to follow him they felt that they arrived at a safe harbor at the end of the film and they're being filmed through this whole journey at the end of it no no feels himself you know about it he reveals himself he's just a young man from Canada from Phoenix what is the answer to that see this is why I want you to make a distinction between faith and a spiritual process faith is just a set of beliefs spiritual process begins only when you realize that you do not know the fundamentals of your existence and seeking begins when a seeking begins and you find your sense organs and your logic only takes you to a certain point and it's not willing to help you beyond that then when you come to your dead end you know there is something beyond but you're at a dead end then you will want a normal process so then somebody who has experienced it will offer a process this is all it is now in society it might have fire found all kinds of distortions you picking up a bad apple and talking about apples Satguru consumption in this universe in this earth is really becoming something unsustainable what kind of spirituality is it that does not talk about the finite end of consumption you know even as a even as a method even as a process that is not part of Asia foundation at all see we are always trying to curtail human aspirations it'll never work if I tell somebody don't smoke don't do this don't do that they will not do they'll anyway continue to do it or other kinds of Campbell's compulsions will take them over but if you teach them a method through which they're able to manage the chemistry of who they are today there is substantial medical and scientific evidence it is no more belief system there is substantial scientific and medical evidence today research has gone into this University of California has done an enormous research and the simple Shambo Muhammad are the basic practice that we teach three months of practice you're the neuronal regeneration rejuvenation in your brain is two hundred and forty-one percent more than the average okay there any number of things like this now the chemical soup that you are you can either make it very blissful or miserable so if you are blissful by your own nature then all the compulsiveness will naturally drop whether you're going shopping or you're digging up the planet or you seeking something else essentially it is just this a human being is what longing to be a human being is longing to be something more than what he is right now but if that more happens he wants more if you really look at it a human being cannot settle unless he has all of it if you want all of it approaching it through physical means is a hopeless means the design is fine but the method is hopeless so spiritual process means you have offered him the right method right process for the same design job it's a view on jealousy I really find it highly amusing it's very interesting that it is in religion it is in spirituality the moment they find something in science which is compatible they start respecting science they said look now even the science has accepted it but the moment science is opposing them then it is not credible at all and it is the history there was a question which I missed that time we have to understand through spiritualism that why we are in this universe what are we doing here why have we come here I don't want to commend about anybody else's presence but guru ji I know why I'm in this universe and the reason is unprintable and the reason is unprintable offensive it is a pompous question that why I am in this universe it is a pompous question what I am doing here have you ever thought of a mosquito why did mosquito is here in this world why this porch is here tell it as far as life quality is concerned there is no difference between a Roden and a human being between a mosquito and a human being the only difference is the mind and this is the difference they want to eradicate [Applause] obviously this has no relevance to whatever I'm speaking it looks like it's not even being heard so the thing is the significant aspect of that the significant aspect of human life is that human life is replete with possibilities which other creatures are not capable of every other creature on this planet is fulfilled when its survival process is fulfilled there is something about a human being that it does not settle with survival what is called as human begins only after survival is taken care off so the longing to be an endless expansion cannot be settled by the simplicity of thought thought is just a product of the data that we have gathered and whatever you may know it is still too limited that much is established by science so about science and spiritual process ever being head-on with each other such a thing has never happened it is just that you have not been exposed to the right things as I said earlier you eat a bad apple and you make conclusions about all apples it's an unfortunate reality of one's life I'm going to have to end it at that my takeaway from this are two things one that in India we've had a glorious tradition of the argumentation between men of faith and men of reason there were the navaratna in King Akbar Scott and the big takeaway that I think both of them will agree with is that we can first learn to operate with common sense thank you so much for listening you [Music]

Channel: Algebra Conversations

Views: 322,867

Rating: 4.7504916 out of 5

Keywords: Sadhguru, Javed Akhtar, Inner Engineering, India, Indian Society, Ancient India

Id: aNjZFY4qO2Y

Length: 43min 48sec (2628 seconds)

Published: Tue Jun 09 2020

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Ee sadgurus celebrities ke ee sodhi endhuku cheptharo?

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