S4 - 04 - 10 Round Load Development Ladder Test

10-round load development ladder test on this episode of six bye guys this episode of six five guys is brought to you by defiance machine defying tradition with innovation our bros rifles precision on another level JC steel targets the industry leader in quality AR 500 steel targets [Applause] [Music] welcome to six live guys I'm Steve Lawrence and I'm ed mumbling Steve low development have been our two most popular videos that's right back a lot of guys interested in low development often ask us hey do you guys use optimal charge weight or OCW yeah I mean that that's a good question because you know some folks have said you know are you saying that this is a replacement for OCW or there's something wrong with OCW actually quite the contrary we've used OCW complimentary yeah it's very complimentary and this is just a method but you know if you choose to use OCW you can if you choose to use the methods that Scott Satterlee has promulgated in our videos you can and from everything we've seen so far and from the feedback we received from our audience the results rightly correlate I absolutely got the same result right into zactly exactly now Scott recently contacted us and he posited a question which was what would you guys say if I could get you to that same result but in ten rounds well I mean we always know Scott's kind of pushing the envelope right and I think you know my visceral response was like okay this is really going to be interesting to see yeah because you're typically our method would probably take 40 to 50 rounds right right right and so yeah that was somewhat of the scintillating you know proposition on Scott's part but we we we packed up the gear and we went over to Scott's house and we sat down for a chat so guys take a look and you know the way it came about was I we came up with a cartridge that nobody had ever run before so at that point it's kind of like where do I start not only where do I start but I want to test all these different powders for it and then that was kind of the obligation we had was okay we got this new cartridge out now I got to test all this powder and people are going to come to me and be like okay what powder right do I use what's the load and I have to be in on like hey this is this try this you know so try to dial it in can be very time-consuming about the range the other day you know typically I prepare five cartridges with a load you know and then go up in point two or point three grain increments so you know if you're doing that over ten loads that's like a significant amount of time to load those as well as firing measure and barrel life and bullets and just cost not just component cost I mean what are bullets cost is now like 40 cents a piece so I mean the more efficient you can be with you know finding a place to start you know developing your load the better off we all are you know and and the less frustration you have you know so let's go through the steps okay well how would a person start with this method oh well you know let's cover the the powder and the and that and the cartridge real quick I'm running the 65 I call it the Swede more but it's the 65 addiction it's a 65 at 55 improved it's got similar case capacity to 65 to 84 so when I when I go to a powder 4831 or h1000 or something like that all base off of six five to eight four and then that's usually where I start and then I usually go up past what the 65 to 80 four says in the manual so that's step one is i go to i go to a known source somebody I know or you know the Hajin website and I find my starting point so I start there though and in this particular case I mean you've got 50 grains and 51 grains in your using the loader 26 reloader 26 which is an unknown you know I mean not a whole lot of guys your known point you're starting from was 48 31 yeah because it was it similar burden speed I think the reload is a low or the yeah the reloader is a little bit slower so I figured I would be safe starting off at 50 okay okay the 51 and you were expecting a velocity in the neighborhood of 3,000 feet per second that's kind of the expectation right the expectation I want to get you know if it's going to be a usable powder for me is going to be 33,000 feet per second on the 140s or or more I'm looking for I'm always looking for a little bit more speed with consistency gotcha I can get both and it's great if I don't if I get one without the other then it's not worth it um but so what I did was we went we loaded up one round of each you know what you like now that's not a test group I'm like it's enough you know what we normally do see we'd load five bags right yeah we know five minutes right and then you go shoot me and see if they'd shoot a five shot group or not and you'd probably run run a chronograph yeah yeah and and this rifle isn't that accurate with the chronograph sticking on the end of it so I don't really bank too much on what I see if it's all over the place then yeah I've got some issues and I'll typically go tighten up my band out of my chronograph okay and but what I'm looking for is I'm just right now when I'm doing that initial ten round I'm just looking for a velocity spot pressure and velocity are all you can almost call them equal for all practical purposes I can't major pressure but I can major velocity pressure equals velocity so in a sense I'm kind of measuring velocity as a result of above the pressure right so and what I'm looking for is I'm looking for a consistent pressure where you know I have three or four two or three charge weights that develop the same speed I can make an inference that it's probably the same pressure Yeah right and and in our experience and and alkali to answer this as far as your own experience but so far whether we've done OCW or a number of different methods the the best shooting load the most accurate load so far there's been a very high correlation almost a perfect correlation between the most consistent velocity and the most consistent load that's been our experience so far what about you I mean you say a lot more yeah same here and with you know doing I think I've tested 22 different powders everything from 4352 h1000 IMR 4461 IMR 79-77 reloader 17 all the way to reloader 26 so I've tested everything in that in that burn speed rate for this cartridge and I've found that for every single every single one of those powders where I found a velocity flat spot or a pressure flat spot the rifle shot so so for the for the benefit of the audience what we're still seeing is that you can do low development solely based on velocity flats pump and you don't you don't even need a target I mean what I do if I think I'm really stressed for time yeah I just shoot it off my back porch into a Gerber so not only that but I mean this this group right here represents two grains of powder charge difference yeah I mean that's that's uh you know you take let's see that's you take one bullet hole off that's about a one-inch group and with the velocity difference of over a hundred feet per second yeah so this is this is kind of my point with the OCW testing is that it you're going to be really reading tea leaves now optimally I would have done this at 300 yards it would have shown ready for her yard so you did make an important point though so for folks that are looking at body methods if you're looking to save time looking to a barrel life cost and components this would be the method that you one of you yep absolutely or if you've got a two-hour trip to the range yeah you know I know some guys like that out on the East Coast I mean they literally got two hours you know they're probably going to take more ammo than this but I mean this is a good place to start so so what we did was we did fifty fifty point two point four point six point eight and then I also loaded 50 1.0 0.2 0.4 0.6 and point eight and these are the velocities that we had correlated in here 2960 29 80 29 80 to 29 75 which is that that's pretty that's kind of what I was looking at right there so what I did was I loaded up three of fifty point four and then I saw another flat spot right in here where it was 40 45 41 so I loaded up 30 point or up 51 point five right in between there because this is 0.2 point four point six point eight early I mean included in there I could probably load anywhere in here but I want to stay away from the high end and the low end of the node right so this this one that's fifty point two is probably the low end of the node because we were member the sweet spot in that I'm looking for that the middle of it you know if I'm loading the middle of it I can almost load this on a progressive press if I was in a hurry at fifty one point five have 0.1 or 0.2 either way and I'm still going to have crazy low extreme spreads you know folks that have this question we actually receive this from from viewers and we save the flat spot we're referring to visit velocity so if you actually graph these out in Apple Excel that flat spot would be your seam very little variation in the velocity down your measure where point two point two grains doesn't move the velocity needle one way or the other right and again you shot all of these into that same one yep right there on inch group so so you know you so block City all the way from 2960 going all the way up to thirty forty don't worry how all went in the D I mean yeah except for these three out here which were the first which which were the on the slower end now somebody could look at and say well actually that kind of disproves your point because you can have these significant velocity variations and they all go into small group at a hundred yards yes that no that you wouldn't yeah I use Mathematica right then yeah if you go through your yeah if you're if you're running twenty nine sixty and thirty fifty you know and it goes in the same hole here you know and if you're not using a chronograph you wouldn't know I mean you're like dang that's a pretty darn good group I think I'll load that and I'll load it on progressive and I'll be fine and then you take it out to a thousand yards like wow that one sailed over the target and that one didn't even that one hitting the dirt right it you know you're like what the heck and it's a it's a two to three foot you know vertical target like a IPSec or something and you're just not going to hit it and you're not going to know if you missed it on wind or if you missed it on vertical you know it's very hard to tell man you run one into a berm and the dust flies out here and stuff and the wind takes it you know like man I just missed that on wind you missed it on wind and you missed it on vertical so I mean if you're fighting both of those it makes for a long day have you know so so after you shoot you're looking for the flat spot yep you you've identified your flat spots and you decided to come off and create some additional loads of two different 50.4 and 51.5 what did what do you what did you find it that way okay so yeah I mean you guys actually saw the chronograph dad I don't know if you've got a picture of it on but anyway at fifty point four I got twenty nine sixty one twenty nine sixty two twenty nine sixty three in like 2961 so I mean it was an extreme spread of two right you know that's going to shoot you know yeah the group wasn't great but again we were shooting some bad light ahead while you were trying to just proof actually proved yourself that that was the flat that was a flat spot yeah and yeah it was a flat spot you know I mean I could probably load down on a progressive and have seen digit extreme spread and then I was like well that is a group of pretty groovy speed for that cartridge I mean it's a it's that's a I've always seen that as an accuracy node but I know there's another accuracy note higher up and still not pressured out so and if I have the choice between something that's super duper accurate and a extreme spread of two but it's slow I'll take the faster one that's a little beaut a little looser because again velocity equals accuracy at distances but but I mean what you consider loose is what an ESS five I mean though I think most people in a wildest fantasy MMO I thought it would look you happy to get it right right okay but the point is if Scott was shooting does that rifle yeah and that bullet at at twenty nine eighty or twenty nine sixty and Scott was shooting that same rifle and same bullet at thirty fifty five one hundred feet per second faster oh I visited Scott shooting this is going to beat this Scott Eyre I said the other way this is just a statistical advantage right at the mathematical side yeah so and then yeah this one we go back into it we had 51 51 point two four six eight and I decided to load it right in the middle there which was and which mean this kind of this kind of was strange it went up in speed it was 15 feet per second faster yeah but I got an extreme spread of five so I think I had a thirty 55 30 56 57 and a 30 60 you know but I did I'll be honest you know full disclosure actually loaded those a couple days ago because I knew we were going to do this so I mean it could have been anything but you know a ten foot per second change you know could have been could have been anything yeah so and so now once you've kind of proven yourself yet hey this this looks like it's the best load you sort of you need additional testing or well yeah we recommend after that what I'm going to do after that is I'm going to load up five more I'm going to take the chronograph off of it shoot it and I'm going to be very disciplined over the shot and see how groups and if it doesn't group well what I'll do is I'll start messing with the load lengths a little bit you know some bullets like to be jumped Allah I found that like you're the veal these you guys remember we're talking about those veal these and they either need to be into the lands or you need to jump them like a mile I mean you have to get a running start right I'll get our sow you know get them like a tenth of an inch off the land and then they shoot you know and in in this cases for what twenty fell off or uh you know I don't know okay I don't know it's a the barrel so so the barrel was actually shipped to me from another gun another rifle that the barrel was spun up for another defiance action and it was short notice you know hey this barrels burnt out and it's like I had two barrels with them but he hadn't gotten to him yet so he took the barrel off of his rifle sent it to me and I spun it on there and that's why I had to headspace at dodging so and and you know you mentioned working with different powders in the Sweden war but are you finding that even with different powders the accuracy nodes tend to be in the same velocity neighborhood a lot actually almost the same exact saw in the here'll time yeah I mean yeah yeah you know it could be you know uh internal ballistics has got to have something to do with that and this is with multiple barrel contours to like I think this is a marksman my contour and I typically go with a proof m24 contour but it turns out the same I mean within ten feet per second the accuracy nodes are in the same spot with the giving a cartridge yeah and just so our audience members understand I mean we're not knocking OCW we're not knocking OBP it's just that in in our experience and our observations they're you know whatever is Dimmick there's no urge on the same yeah they all tend to converging on the stand officer yeah there's there's a lot of different ways to skin the cat this is more of like the way I looked at it and we all did OCW because well it works um well yeah and the magneto speed didn't come out till you know three or four years ago right now those you know that's what you had to do right and unless you had a big ol er chronograph with ya which was a million dollars right I mean really had it it was a real challenge to get good accurate consistent velocity velocity and then living in the Pacific Northwest there's maybe five days you can usually use it there's a light base directly so Scott's on so the next step we look forward to to going out to the range yeah we'll go out tomorrow yep yeah watch over our vive consumed lot less than 16 17 yeah we're right yeah we're on actually that that represents 20 bullets yep okay they have twenty twenty bullets and we'll we're going to go out to a thousand yards tomorrow and just bang it and be like we're done got it excellent okay both sides yeah so we're going to head to the range and then yep we'll he'll come back we're here at the range to do our field testing so it's got that give the audience a rundown of what you're going to do today okay so we did our 10 round low development yesterday we're going to do I'm going to confirm velocity and zero and then we're going to take it to distance and see how it shoots and so what are you bringing with you today as far as loans I'm bringing the load the fifty one point or 51.5 load that we said yesterday was going to be the numbers we wanted good be good speed good accuracy good consistency and now we're just going to confirm it you know I'll confirm it at 600 so basically speed you know out to 600 it's just a function of gravity and velocity you know BC doesn't matter that much yet so I'll confirm that the chronograph is telling me what I'm when I'm you know suspect is the truth and then we'll take it out further and how many rounds are you bringing now to the range today 10 okay all right all right let's do it weird efficient very efficient all right so Scott you were on the trigger tell folks a little bit about what it is that you were doing today okay so basically I took a couple rounds let it kind of sit out in the Sun ran it over the chronograph same point I mean I was just within a foot per second I think I got thirty fifty nine instead of 30 60 or something took the chronograph off confirmed that it wasn't lying to me for 680 I got a couple of hits and then and then just went out and took it to eleven ten and thirteen eighty you made good solid hits right in the middle so and and really what it comes down to is we've done this process enough now to trust it i used to agonize over low development I mean like god is this one you know and I shot thirty rounds I'm going to take that to the next match it's all you need to do thirty rounds for a rock-solid load I mean that is that's great fishin yeah absolutely yeah one of the great new techniques that you know I think for the folks that are kind of advanced and having done work upload this is an alternative to consider well no I mean I honestly I mean I wasn't looking forward to working up the loads for 308 now I'm just going to use your your process but but I think also for somebody to use this process they need to be they need to have everything else pretty solid they're hand loading techniques and stuff like that all right yeah lutely so considered a bit of an advanced technique that's absolutely very a beginning reloader would probably not they might try it and but it'll take it'll take a long time for them to develop the that like you said they're the techniques there's some things that I've done that have really make my reloading a thing as well right but but again it's one of those things that I mean I used to agonize over it I used to you know I just mess up probably a quarter of my cases when I first started reloading so you know it really is one of those things that as you progress is a reloader as a shooter as a rifleman this is a an expedited technique right alright folks there you have it you know having come out to visit Scott and actually see him put the methodology to the test at the range was quite something yeah I mean it really took something that you know as I mentioned earlier was you guys a little taken aback in a biased proposition it's like okay I really want to see this but seeing him executed really you got me thinking and while personally I haven't adopted that approach fully I've started to use elements of that and so my load development has become a more efficient process yeah now I would want the audience to make sure they understand that one of the big dependencies for this to work is the shooters ability to have consistent handlers absolutely I mean if if you know you're feeling good with like you know 20-foot SD this is not a method for you again you know Scott's a guy that typically achieves us these in the low single digits if extreme spreads over ten feet per second he's having a bad day so just you know keep that in mind yeah and this could really work for you guys be sure to check out the website we will have a full write-up with the details to answer many of the questions that you may have folks remember life's an adventure stay on target [Music] you you

Channel: 6.5 Guys

Views: 139,246

Rating: 4.8972564 out of 5

Keywords: Hand Loads, reloading, precision reloading, ladder test, load development, PRS, precision rifle, long range precision, long range shooting, rifle match, rifle competition, 6.5 Guys, 65guys, Scott Satterlee, 6.5 Addiction, 65 addiction

Id: ACyfeeBHVOA

Length: 23min 35sec (1415 seconds)

Published: Fri May 05 2017