(dramatic music) (upbeat music) (dramatic music) (upbeat music) - We're at Autobahn Country
Club in Joliet, Illinois, to look at three cars that most
people can probably afford. The 86 TRD the S2000
AP2 and the Miata Club. Let's take a look at all the things that make these cars great
on track and on the street and some technical information. (soft music) The interior space of three
simplistic driver-focused cars. We first have the S2000. It's the oldest. This is the most pure design while still maintaining
good design quality or feel. The door cards still have
a little bit of a pocket yet you're only gonna fit a
phone or a wallet in there. The panels in the plastic
feel good, soft to the touch, including the armrest and the leather. The center design of the dashboard, again is low glare materials,
it is only for the driver. This car is basically a
driver functional car, the passenger you can forget about. But it's amazing to see something that is so focused on
great physical controls that have held up even 20 years later, that feels like it's
something out of a modern car. Everything has a great clicky feel to it. It's easy to figure and use
and they hide the CD player or the radio, whatever you wanna call it. So you're not distracted by
anything except the drive. The gauge cluster is a throwback
to the '90s formula one car that McLaren Honda did that
Ayrton Senna used to drive. Everything else feels tight. The shifter is the only thing here. You get the cup holder covered up. The purposefulness of the
S2000 is quite unmatched in sports car history with the exception of possibly a Lotus Elise or Exige. But let's get onto the 86 FRS or BRZ. Now the 86 twins have a huge advantage over something like the S2000. You have usable backseats, you have a trunk with fold-down rear seats that you could fit four
wheels and tires in. The fact that you can
use that car year around, and it's more functional
for a taller, bigger person, because you have a
telescopic steering wheel that moves in and out and up and down. The S2000 did not have
that, you had a fixed wheel which meant it is handicapping for someone that is taller, bigger. And I hear big people talking about, "Oh, I squeezed my way in "and if you love the
car enough, you will." But the BRZ and 86 is by far
the most usable everyday car. And while it might have some
performance deficiencies, it makes up for it in usability and it maintains that driver
focus that the S2000 had. Low glare materials, functional controls, you are not overwhelmed
with a ton of technology or gimmicks in the car. And while it may look cheaper, it's certainly is definitely
one of the more pure cars on the market. Last but not least, is the ND Miata, ND1 and ND2 share the same smallish cabin that feels like it was more
developed for the Asian market than the American or
North American market. It feels smaller than the
S2000 while ergonomically, the arguments could be made
that certain things are better because the steering wheel
adjusts, the column adjust so you can have a little
bit more flexibility. It has a usable audio system, including speakers in the
headrest that make Bluetooth calls or phone calls completely functional even with the top down. The manual top, you can
put down and up so fast that it makes you wonder why there isn't a mechanical
top that even exists, or an electronic top. Door usability and storage
areas are just as pathetic if not more pathetic than the S2000. The cup holders have to
be snapped in the back, which get in the way of your arm, the door and side pockets
near the center tunnel are also not good. But the overall simplicity of design, the lightweight design, low glare dashboard, smallish dashboard makes it for a purposeful
driving experience. Now, all three cars have
a manual transmission and each one of them feel great when you get past some
of the mechanical issues with each one of these cars. It's more about what
type of person you are in terms of body type and mentality that will help you to decide or choose which car is the best for you. Now, before we take a drive
at each one of these cars to talk about their
street and track manners, we need to bring each
of them into the shoppe to talk about their
technical proficiencies and deficiencies. (dramatic music) Welcome to the underbody segments on three affordable, exciting cars that have been out for quite a long time. First, the S2000 then the 86 BRZ which is on the very last
iteration for 2020/2021 and the ND2 Miata, which is
the freshest of the three. - And we've done videos on all these cars, which I'm sure we're gonna
bring up a lot in this video, but this is actually how we met, Mark. One of the first videos we did together was a S2000/86 comparison. - Which was horrible, you can skip that. - Yeah, it was real bad. - But I did do two S2000
videos that are modern. One a review video,
which covers everything and a buyer's guide, that's an hour long where I cover every single
thing about this car. So if you wanna learn
about it, watch those, but let's hit the bullet points, Jack. - Yep, this is a four
cylinder, rear wheel drive car that was designed in the mid '90s. - Correct and this was
the going away project for Uehara-san, Shigeru Uehara. He did the original NSX and he did this, and this was supposed
to be that no compromise or less compromised driver's car, that they didn't care
so much about refinement or interior appointments
and room and all that stuff, kind of like the NSX had to be. So what you get here is a vehicle that has all the beautiful
things about peak Honda design, naturally aspirated motor,
manual transmission, that's still one of the best ever made. And let's talk about some
of the brief changes. So in 2000 to 2003, we had the AP1 that at a two liter
naturally aspirated motor that had a 9,000 RPM red line. Then you went to the AP2,
which started in 2003- I'm sorry, 2004 and 2005 and then the AP2.5 was 2006 onward. And that got drive by wire and stability or traction control. - And the AP1, AP2 probably
had the biggest character jump over their car, correct? - It did so the AP1 was, again,
more raw, it was more edgy. It had the bump steer issues in the back. you had to control it more at rev tire, but it didn't have as much torque. So the American market
got the 2.2 liter for 2004 while the Japanese market
maintained the two liter. And they refined this and refined it over the period of the life cycle. And almost every single year,
which most people don't know, they change little things like damping and spring rates changed
almost every year. So they were constantly toying with this. But the biggest complaint from the purest was the original was the most
hardcore, the 2000 model. And then the CR kind of combined,
which was the Club Racer, the last model year, which was like the going away party car that combined a lot of the
things from the AP1 and the AP2 until the best thing that they could do. So you buy this car now, not because it's readily accessible, you buy it because it's
one of the most connected, easily rotatable and good driving tools, pretty much created. It is so fun to drive,
which we'll talk about. But they accomplish
that by making the body extremely rigid for the time period. Now, when you look at this,
it's kind of laughable, there is no aero. - It's all steel. - It's all steel, there's no aluminum and they did that to keep costs down. Unlike the 86 and of course the ND2 Miata, you see plastic covers,
this is just littered with what looks like just
raw parts thrown in here. And that's partly why this
car has not the greatest aero. It's unbalanced aerodynamically
at higher speeds, which aids in its ability
to kind of feel unstable. So most of the aftermarket
deals with kind of putting- - [Jack] Big wings, spoilers,
all that other fun stuff. - [Mark] Holes in the
bumper, all that stuff. But as a stock car- - It's double wishbone.
- Correct. In wheel double wishbone
in the front and the rear. - Very balanced and we'll
throw up a weight chart. I mean, from your perspective, Mark as we're gonna try to rush
through this a little bit. What's your favorite model
year and what are the problems that people experience with these cars? - So the AP1s, the 2002 to 2000s definitely had more finicky
diffs and transmissions. They changed the synchros for the AP2s which made them more
durable, they felt better. They all have the same kind
of like notchiness issues. But the diff was improved for- Basically the AP2 generation is what you want for durability. But people still love like
the higher revving part of it. If I was gonna keep one
longterm and drive it a lot, the AP2 is kind of the gold standard. But the problem between the 2004 and 2005s where it was still drive by
cable, it had a throttle cable. So tuning, if you wanna
go after market tuning, you wanna go to AP2.5 when
they went by drive by wire because it's just easy to reflash the ECU. But everything on here is adjustable, camber, castor and tow. And then in the back, you
have camber and tow adjustment just out of the box with eccentric bolts. So if you just wanna
street drive this thing and take it to the track with some brake pads and sticky
tires, it's an amazing tool. And the aftermarket is still great. Like I finally did brakes and tires because I exceeded what this car can do. Brakes, tires, and more
adjustable camber just- Well, of course the wheels are
too wide fit to fit in the- - [Jack] And we'll be doing a video that's gonna come out shortly on kind of what you have to go through when you modify an S2000 as well. - Correct and we're gonna get
some help with that because- I'll talk about my experience with it and then of course, what
everybody else does, which is a totally different story. But as a stock car, this
is still relevant today and that's why it's crazy
expensive and so loved that it's still just as
relevant if not more relevant like than the 86 and of course ND2 Miata. - And this is the only car that currently out of the three that we're
doing will appreciate. - Yeah, it's a strange world to be in this far away, almost 20 years. So let's get into the next
car, the BRZ and 86, Jack. - [Jack] Sounds good. - Now you've had a
brief look at the S2000, we know what that is and what it's not. Now it's time to look at the
86, which used to be the FRS. This was released in 2013, and it's been slowly
evolved to where it is now. And this is kind of
the last version of it. - Yes, this is a 2020
86 with the TRD package, which is basically Toyota's solution to all of the car's original deficiencies. So now you have a big
brake kit from Brembo, sack stampers, sway bars,
springs, all that other fun stuff and Pilot Super Sport
tires or Pilot 4Ss now. - So you can no longer slide this around, even if you want to,
unless you get stupid. It's a totally different feeling car, which if you wanna know
everything about this, we've already covered it and all the past generation
FRS and 86 and all that. - Yeah, we did this exact
car earlier this year. - So the main things to talk about, the highlights are this
was built to a price point. And that's why you don't
see a lot of the things that you see on the S2000 and the Miata, because they wanted this to be affordable at the launch price at $25 grand, you can't ask for much more. Limited slip differential, they've added aero panels
here to smooth out airflow over the course of the life cycle, the suspension's been improved, they've given the engine a little bit of a few manufacturing changes, including the intake manifold, they just gave it a
slight bump in horsepower. But other than that, it remains largely unchanged
from where it launched. The main thing to talk about here compared to the S2000 and the Miata is it has far superior aero. It just annihilates the S2000 and that you don't have
some of the lift issues. You don't have some of
the instability issues because you have a coop. You don't have a
convertible top to deal with and this was designed after that. So a lot of the things that are not there on the S2000 are here. But the negatives are it's all steel. Again, there's no aluminum underneath. It has a lot of shared
components with other Subarus, which is a pro and a con. The pro is it's cheaper to replace. Stamped steel control
arms, the steering rack is mounted in a way
where you feel something, which you don't feel
something on the S2000. It even has a better
steering feel than the Miata. - Yeah, it's an impressive architecture. But the negative is because this is a strut
front, multilink rear, you have none of the acentric bolts, or really any camber adjustment
at all in this architecture. So when you're comparing it to the S2000, which is endlessly adjustable, and is honestly probably
a more dedicated track car than this is. - Yeah, you have to make
a lot of changes here. Not having the ability to be able to adjust camber
from the factory or caster, like the S2000 and the
Miata is a huge detractor. So you're basically buying this and if you're not happy
with the way that it is, you're going right to suspension and all the things that
go along with that. But, again, there are so
many good things about this that we're gonna talk about when I do some of the track
driving and the drive. I'm so happy that it's still exists and people can afford it. - Lastly, Mark, let's talk about some of
the reliability problems with this car. And it being largely steel does mean if you drive in
the winter, which you can do. - Yeah, I did. - It will rut out and so did I. The other thing to talk
about is the motor. It's a, two-liter flat
four, it's a boxer engine. It's fairly stout, they
solved most of its problems from 2015, 2016. - Yeah, I think it was about 2016 where everything was kind of sorted out. Last but not least, Jack the ND2 Miata and compared to the FRS and the S2000, this looks like something like that. - It feels exotic with
all its aluminum, Mark. - Yes, you have aluminum knuckles, you have aluminum control
arms in the front. You have double wishbone in
the front, multilink rear. This is a much more purpose
built and developed car, It is not shared with anything
else in the Mazda lineup. - And if you wanna learn
everything there is to know about a Miata, we did
a five-part documentary with the help of Mazda, their engineers, original designers, the janitors who were there in the NA and NB eras. So watch that if you wanna
learn everything there is. However, this is gonna be a
quick overview of this car. - So the main thing, you have adjustability in the suspension in the front, camber, castor and tow, you have eccentric bushings. In the back, same thing, you have tow adjustment
and camber adjustment, which means you can take
this right from the street, modify it simply to go to the track with normal stuff, brake
pads, tires, brake fluid, and you can have a lot of fun. And from an engineering perspective, this is the only car from the three that had motor sports
built in from the start. And I'm not just saying that
because it's a catchy word because they do have a racing series that the foundation of this
car is built on and upgraded. So all of that was baked in in the extended development
cycle of this car. So you have an in-house
manual transmission, all of this was made by Mazda,
there was no outsourcing. The S2000 and 86 trans are
Aisin units, this is Mazda. You have a Torsen unlimited
slip in this car that's optional Torsen in the FRS and
in the S2000 as well. They're very similar. This has the best weight distribution, 50/50 front rear and almost 50/50 cross. But the S2000, well at least
mine, is almost perfect and the 86 is very close to this. So we're comparing as much apples to apples here as possible. - And when we're on the
track, this is a RF GT model. We will have a Club car that is a soft top for our track portion. So Mark, let's talk about the engine and some of the updates. There were two, two liters for this car, with the ND1 and the ND2. And the by-product of that
is the ND2 revs higher and makes more power. - Yes, and the brief story, which we didn't really
cover in the documentary is Mazda of Japan had a
developmental budget for this car, which kept stretching and
stretching, of course. And their engineers wanted the 1.5 liter to be that global high strung
kind of motor sportsy motor and Mazda of North America they're like, "Yeah, we're gonna need
a bigger one than that." But the problem was there
wasn't enough budget to give the 1.5 and the two
liter, the same treatment. So the 1.5 got all the money and there was nothing
left for the two-liter. So they took the Mazda3 two
liter and put it in the ND1. And when they got money
saved up, or not money saved, but when the budgets were reallocated, - Yeah, they're ridded the couch cushions and all other fun stuff. - They did the same treatment
they did to the 1.5 liter to a modified two-liter. Breathes better, different
tuning, revs higher, head work, all of that. So the ND2 is kind of what
they originally wanted to do and this is probably at this
point in time with the economy, as good as we're gonna see it. They're gonna add G vectoring to this car, I don't know when, but other than that, there's not tons of plans for it. It's already as great
as you can possibly make like a $30,000 plus car. - Yeah, and the two liter, the reason they redid
that motor and modified it is they wanted it to feel better, not to add more horsepower. The horsepower was a byproduct of this thing revving out more. So with that Mark, what are the reliability
concerns with this car? - Really, the main thing
is just the manual trans has gone through four
or five revisions now. Long Road Racing who originally
did the cup car program was involved in helping
them further develop it because when you got on track, which they didn't find in
their original developments. - [Jack] Because they couldn't
factor in the monkey factor. - The monkey mode factor
that people were breaking it and some of the quality control issues that they had with the manual gearbox. So Mazda was very proactive
about modifying it, correcting it and even now they're going through
quality assurance stuff and trying to improve it as time goes on. But none of the models we've driven, and I think we've driven
seven or eight of these, even on track, I've never had
a manual transmission problem. - And we pound the hell out of these cars. - Yeah, we do. So again, like every car, they have their issues mechanically, but the Miata is really solid. It really is and people
beat the snot out of these, and I can't wait to do
that on the track, Jack. So with that, Mark let's head
to Autobahn Country Club. (soft music) - Oh, Jack decided to start
with the oldest first, the S2000 was being developed in the '90s. Why is it still relevant today? - Well, Mark, because
it's a simplistic formula and proof that when you get it right and when you realize that driving is about the simple act of driving, meaning you have three
pedals, good steering, a communicative chassis
with direct inputs, it makes the car timeless. It's not about infotainment and screens and zero to 60 times. It's about an emotional
connection with an automobile and you've owned the 86 like I have. But you've also owned three
or four S2000s at this point. Why is it you keep coming back? - Well, there's the main
thing about this car I'm gonna get into it. And I've owned three S2000s,
like at completely stock aside from tires and brake pads. And the best thing about a stock S2000 is there's not quite anything out there that is such a good
learning tool about how- how do I put this? The dynamics of what this
car does at the limit is one of the most rewarding
cars I've ever driven. I've had an Exige S, I've
had an Atom, obviously the 86 and a few other cars that were
kind of driver focused cars. With this, when you brake, when you get deep under the
brakes, the car rotates, it always turns in. When you lift off throttle,
the nose points in. If you don't have good reaction time, and this car starts to snap oversteer, it's not a car that's gonna drift easily. It's a car that when the
back end breaks loose, you need to be quick, you
need to stay ahead of the car. So this is one of the best
cars I've ever been in, in terms of being all
completely usable on the street, in terms of horsepower, it's not overkill, but every single piece
of the dynamics of it are such a joy to drive. And I would take this out
of pretty much anything under a $100,000 most of the time. And mainly because after all of this time, we know it's one of the
most reliable sports cars ever produced. The engine is special, the transmission, the manual
transmission is special, but there are a few negatives, Jack. - In the first let's
talk about the engine. So this is the AP2, which means it has a
slightly greater displacement and a little bit more torque. But even then, when you leave a corner and you are not higher
up in the RPM bands, there is nothing there. - Yes, and you're gonna go to a track day or even on the street and
it's really frustrating if you're not understanding
what this car is about. And I made a mention on the
review I did on this car. If you get out of high horsepower
cars and you get in here, you'll seriously think it's broken because there's just no
torque at the bottom end. But once you get out here
and you pull one of these, you go down a couple of gears, (car revving) then it starts to make sense. - It is a very rewarding
car to one wind out to be fair to it. - It is, but you have to be of the mindset that that's how you
have to drive this car. Now, in terms of steering feel, another negative, it's non-existent. This is one of Honda's first EPS units, and short of modifying the
hell out of the suspension, it's very numb and that's
probably the biggest negative if I had to- - It is direct though, to be fair to it. You're right, it's completely numb and the worst out of the three cars here. What else do you wanna bring up as far as dynamically
compared to the other two? I think the biggest thing is
even on a stock suspension, this is a great tool where there is enough suspension
compliance for the street, it's a little bit over dampened. But there's not much wheel
travel like the Miata where you come into a
corner and you turn in and you feel like you have
to wait for a half a second before the suspension sets. This thing just changes direction, it sets, on stock suspension, and on most really good
after market suspensions. It just does everything so well and the car is so balanced
and so rewarding to drive. If you can accept the fact it's
not the fastest thing ever, you have to wind the piss out of it. And the aerodynamics, if
you're really gonna track this, the aero is so bad, but it's representative
of a car from this era that you have to do a lot of work. But I've tried to keep this
as close to stock as possible and also give it kind of the updates that a manufacturer
would give it these days, the squared set of tires with real rubber, that's not cheater tires, the suspension that's better on the street that still gives you
trackability and real brakes. And I think that's comes
into the last thing is the brakes on the S2000
are really, really bad. That's probably, if not the steering, the biggest deficiency. They're just old, single piston calipers that are even smaller than what came off in an Accord V6 back in the day, it doesn't have ventilated
discs in the back. So while they will hold up with a really good set of track pads, you're gonna be replacing pads and rotors, probably two or three track
days which gets super expensive if you're really good at driving this car. - Which we talked about
on the shoppe segment specifically with rotors cracking. But at this point, Mark, I think it's time for us to
hop into the Miata ND2 Club. - Yes, sir.
- All right. (soft music) - Oh boy here we are, the latest and greatest Miata,
the ND2 with the RF trim. We also have the Club out here, but we're gonna talk about both. So we know what's been updated when we talked about it in the shoppe, but when you get out here and
drive this for the first time, you notice right away. Why am I leaning into your seat, Jack? - Well, it's because I'm a
pretty cozy gentlemen, Mark, but it's also because these
things have a ton of roll. Even in the Club forum, this moves around an unbelievable amount. And unfortunately, because of that, in the corners, when
you were going flat out, it does lead to some weight transfer and oversteer moments as well. - Yeah, so basically what you're doing when you're driving this, you're constantly, for me, what I feel like is it's
constantly moving around in the back and it's not
that it's out of control, but it's this little dance maneuver. And I constantly have to
drive more with my fingertips to feel this and make
these subtle corrections. And while it is engaging,
it's definitely not slower and you're fighting for grip. So where does that leave us with the ND? You have one of the best
chassis with the most overhead in terms of modification, turning this into something far more. But in terms of stock, they've
left a lot off the table to make it, I would say, overly
compliant for the street. This thing is really designed
to take on some bad payments. So there's a ton of compression stroke, there's a lot of travel. - And there's a lot wheel travel as well. - There's a lot of wheel travel. So that's great on the street, when you're driving it hard, not so much. So the positive part about that is it does teach you weight balance. Pretty much more so than
any other rear wheel drive, fun to drive car. - And it's a whimsical. The other two cars, specifically the 86 and kind of the S2000 as well. They're not a particularly funny car, they take themselves a little seriously. Where the Miata and it doesn't matter what generation you've been in, they're all kind of funny. And while that doesn't necessarily make it the best car to drive,
it is a rewarding experience. - On the street, it's a better car. It's a better car for a couple reasons. One, you feel way more engaged driving it. You can beat it, flog it and a lot of it is the
way the engine's tuned, this makes way more torque. It feels like way more heavy down low, and you would notice it instantaneously getting out of the S2000 or the 86, just revving it out in first and second, it's just there's power the entire way. And that when you're driving
it flat out, it's still revs. And it doesn't feel like
the engine is gonna blow up like the 86 when you're winding it out. So it's free, it gives you
this great connected feel and you can drive at 100% all the time and not get in a lot of trouble. And you'll have the open air experience. - Yeah, this motor strikes the balance between the 86 and the S2000. You have the top end of the S2000 where it doesn't feel so labored and some of the lower
end torque of the 86. And this probably has
one of the best gearboxes out of all, three of them. It does have some reliability problems, but I think it's a good
balance between the precision- - It's really light and
it's really easy to use and it has the best pedal box, if you don't have enormous feet to be able to heel and
toe and do all that. All the connections,
the driver connections between steering, shifter, brakes, all of that is the best
balance in the Miata where the S2000, it
doesn't have enough brakes, the steering is kind of dead. The 86 has a really good manual
transmission and shifter, but the engine doesn't
feel all that engaging. So this does everything basically better than both of those cars. It just has problems, I think, mostly with the body
control and the suspension as a stock car. If you wanna drive it flat out on a track, you basically have to modify it. - Which you can resolve like you did. I mean, obviously you didn't fix- There weren't the same
problems in the S2000 but if you did, Ohlins on this car- - Yeah if you did Ohlins, if you did real dampers of
your choice and real tires, that's gonna make a huge difference. And a lot of people
complain about aero on this. It's aero dirty, it's a convertible. And we understand that the
S2000 has the same problems if not actually worse than this with lift. But I love driving this car. If I had to have an S2000 replacement, it would be this over the 86. (engine revving) (soft music) - So you can actually get these cars. They readily available and
you have dealer support. Finding a clean AP2, or even
an AP1 S2000 at this point is extremely difficult. - Yeah, absolutely. And the fact that this was
built and is raced for real, raced for real in a wheel to wheel series, not just time trial stuff, the amount of development
that has gone into this and will continue to go into this will far exceed either
the 86 and the S2000. And that's where all this
engineering comes to play. If you have to have that weekend
car, this thing is amazing. (dramatic music) (engine revving) - So Mark, we're in the 86 and
as some of our viewers know, this is the car that started
it all for you and I. - It did actually, it started this whole
journey of car videos, my passion for driving, my passion for being disappointed in cars and thinking I could
somehow make them better failed miserably, but here we are. And the final evolution
of this generation, 86. - Yeah, and it's come a long way. And as we talked about in our prior video, this is the maximizing this car. It is no longer a slidy, over-steery car, it's all about grip now,
they fixed the brakes. They attempted and failed
to fix the engine zone, where there's tear in the exhaust. But for what it is, I think
it's a great compromise versus the S2000 and the Miata. Because at the end of the day,
this is one of the few cars, or really the only car in this test that you could actually
drive every single day and use as a daily driver, 100%. - It's the only car that
you could buy for real, and then take it and
use it 365 days a year with the right tires in
pretty much any climate, you still have space, you
still have a back seat. If you had to have a car seat,
you could put it back there. You have a trunk that
you could haul tires in. So that's something that, as much as this might
have some deficiencies compared to the other two cars, it makes up for it in the
fact that it's just affordable and it still has all the good dynamics somewhere in between both
the Miata and the S2000. - And it's still new enough and old enough in both categories
because you can get a 2013 that you could either get a warranty or get a used one for very cheap. So it does have that pro
and it's the most rigid, and it has the best aero out
of the other two as well. However, once we get into
the dynamics of driving, this is where this car starts to fall apart a little bit, sadly. And I guess, do you wanna start
with your biggest deficiency with us car, Mark? - So the biggest deficiency is the engine, you definitely feel it strained. It doesn't like to rev, it
doesn't feel free to rev like the Miata and the S2000. It will go to 7,500 RPM,
but just doesn't feel good, it doesn't sound good. But here's the thing, it feels way more stable than the Miata, stock versus stock even the Club. It doesn't wallow around, it
doesn't take forever to set. It's more like the S2000 in terms of some of the body control. But where it loses out to the S2000 is it does not wanna trail brake. The ABS system is still
far too aggressive here when you get deep into the pedal. You have a nice firm puddle, but when you start to use it, this car does not turn in as well as the Miata and the S2000.
- Like right there. - It wants to wash out more and now that they've
sorted out the suspension, in terms of grip, you have grip, you have the dynamics, you have all the things that are fixed to make this more balanced, but the finer details of
making this a driver's car are not here as much as
the Miata and the S2000. - I don't disagree with you. It's strengths dynamically are it's gearbox, pedal box and steering. I do think it has probably the
best steering in the group, but you're right. Sadly, the dynamics
don't necessarily match how good the inputs are. - Correct, so that forces you
really, even at this level, with everything sorted out with more grip, you still have to go and do
certain aftermarket things, to get it to turn in better. You need more tire,
it's still under tired, even though you don't have
crummy all seasons on here, you have real tires, but at 215, there's not a lot of grip
and you run out of it. And the worst part about that is you don't have the ability to change any type of serious
alignment settings on here that could neutralize
being undertired more. So you kind of hit this wall
where the S2000, the Miata, give you more overhead as stock cars. - If you can only have one
car, this is the car to buy. - Yeah, absolutely. (upbeat music) - Final thoughts on the
86, the S2000 and ND2. Big thanks to Aamir who let
us borrow his Club Miata for the track portion. And of course, Autobahn Country Club. If you have a sports car
or you love to drive, and you're in the Midwest, get a membership there, and just go there because it's the best
way to experience a car with all the traffic and nonsense. I really appreciate them working with us to make these videos. Now onto the results of this. I've owned a lot of sports cars and some I've spent so much money on that I have to work so much,
I don't even get to enjoy it. And I've been in both
places, really cool cars and I keep going back to
the vehicles in this test. When there's a level of affordability, simplicity, reliability, when you go out there to enjoy it, there's not this thing
in the back of your head that's throbbing like, "Holy
shit, what if I crash this? "I can't afford to fix it. "I can't afford the consumables,
I have to back off." And these cars allow
you that middle ground. And you know, I'm not
saying $25,000, $30,000, isn't a lot of money, but it's way less of a headache than driving around an $80,000 plus car and you get almost all of the fun. The great driving dynamics, these are all driver's
cars in their own way. The 86, it lost in the drag
race, 14 out of 14 times. It's the torque curve, it's the engine, we've talked about this forever, it just does not get off the line well and it does not pull well on the track. Where it makes up for a
lot of its deficiencies is in steering, it's
neutrality of the chassis. It is completely undertired by design, there's not enough tire here. So even though there's
way more grip to be had or way more balanced to be had, with 215 tires, you're
just not getting there. So it's always being held back by the car. You can maximize your driving skill, and then you're gonna have to modify it. It's the best usable car if
you have to have one car. You can drive it year round
with the back seats, the trunk, all of that, amazing. But from a performance perspective, there's just too much to be
done there on the aftermarket to make it the best car of the bunch. They have updated it for 2021 and you're getting more torque, you're getting more horsepower,
naturally aspirated motor, you're getting an oil cooler. You're getting reinforced subframes and of course, lower center
of gravity, manual trans. So it's gonna be this car on steroids. So it should bump this
to the top of the list. In terms of lap times, it was running almost two
seconds slower than the ND2 Miata and almost three seconds
behind the S2000 as stock cars. The ND2 Miata, it's the best car overall, it's just the least usable. It's the funnest on the street
because of the torque curve. It annihilated the S2000 on street starts every single time in a drag race. It's got the most torque off the line, and it's gonna be the most developed car. It's being used in real motor sports, wheel to wheel racing in a series, a sanctioned series, not
just time trial stuff. You get Bespoke cars and that's where all this
development has continued to go. The 86 and the S2000,
we're just kind of like, they needed to add these
lightweight, fun driver's cars to their portfolio at a price point. The Miata is Mazda's heart and soul and you see it across the entire car, that's what makes it amazing. But there are deficiencies there. I mean, in terms of usable
interior space, trunk space, it's just the best
second car of the bunch, but it's also in stock form. One of the worst of the three in terms of performance on the track. There's way too much body roll, there's just way too much pitch and roll. It's not direct, you have to
do weird things to the car, like flicking the steering
wheel or stabbing the brakes, or just getting it to set
and rotate in certain ways that you don't have to do
with the other two cars. So you're constantly having to think about how do I work with
the car to get it to set versus the car working with you. And that's why I prefer,
in many cases, the FRS and I much prefer the S2000, which is the best of the
three in terms of performance. It just intuitively
reacts, it trail brakes without feeling like the ABS system is constantly interfering or wanting to plow the
front end off the track. You go deep into the brakes,
the back end comes around without you having to turn
the wheel all this way. You're basically making
these little minute inputs and small corrections all the time and staying ahead of the car
and it feels like it sets. And you have also one of the
best naturally aspirated, four cylinders ever created in the S2000 and one of the best gearboxes. And we also know it's one of
the most reliable platforms. The drive train was
completely overbuilt here, and it has stood the test of time. It's just Honda has given up on that. And that's why it costs
so much in the aftermarket or it costs so much to buy it used. And that's why the ND2 Miata becomes kind of that replacement. You know you can fix the
deficiencies I've talked about with the race parts or
the aftermarket parts with minimal effort, and you have complete adjustable alignment all the way across the board. If you need the best
second sports car here with years of work to come on the chassis, you get an ND2 and you love every second. You need the usable one, you get the FRS or wait for the new one. And the last part is the S2000. If you're feeling nostalgic like I am, and you have a lot of money
to spend on a used one or trying to find a good one, and you have the patience for that, you're gonna love the S2000, probably more than both cars, but each one has their pros and cons. And I'm glad to have
this video out for you to kind of explain that not
everything is about money, not everything is about horsepower. It's about how a car makes you feel and each one of these is
gonna make you feel something. Thanks for watching,
I'll see you next time. (soft music)
In my opinion they are all winners.
As much as I love the s2000 the rising prices for good condition cars are going to hurt it on my personal list. Good condition cars sub 100k miles are in the 20s.
I hope the new BRZ/86 are good and don't creep up in price too much.
No track time comparison with an overqualified race car driver? Booo. That's the only real way to tell which car is better.
/s
Their videos are so well done, and they keep getting better. Bravo geeseboi and upper middle class Asian man
My opinion :
Me personally I would choose the 86, in-fact I bought an FRS when they first came out. I enjoyed the car while I owned it. Its just the best overall daily for someone who probably wont ever go to the track an does not want the top down experience. S2000's are still reasonable but if they start to creep up to much they start to loose there desirability to me. Just like air cooled Porsches. Might be worth the price to some but when they become to expensive it sort of kills it for me.
Anyways, Another great video by savagegeese. I enjoyed this comparison format and look forward to more.
A comparison that isn't just lap times???
Heresy!
But seriously, I think it's brilliant that dynamics are talked about at length here. Good show!
We are getting to a point with vehicle technology that both "common non-sports" ICE and EV cars can have quite a bit of performance with 0-60. However, this metric does not make them driver focused cars.
I think these cars and cars like them are very much relevant today.
If I needed some practicality: BRZ with a tune to fix the torque dip
If all I cared about was the driving experience, open top, and enjoying a screaming redline: S2K
The compromise: if I wanted something modern that was still great fun to drive while giving me a little bit of the open top experience AND looked good while doing it: Miata RF
Another great video from the gooseman!
None they are all kick ass cars lol
The new BRZ/FRS might be the ones sitting ontop of the throne. The ND2 is just excellent