Robert Stackpole: An Anglican Priest Who Became A Catholic - The Journey Home (7-7-2008)

good evening and welcome to the journey home my name is Marcus Grodi your host for this program every week I have the privilege of introducing to you men and women who because of their great love for Christ are drawn home for the Catholic Church and this is at that monthly episode called the open line first Monday episode in which we try and get you to drive the program with your questions and emails and so what I do is I invite back a former guest who's already given his detailed story he'll give a little bit in the opening but mainly we want you to start calling us with questions and tonight our guest dr. Robert Stackpole former Anglican clergyman he's here to answer your questions the questions are for him and that's so much for me so if you'd like to give us a call you can do so 1-800 two two one nine four six o or you can also call especially if you're outside North America two oh five two seven one twenty nine eighty if you're from dr. stack poles country up north if you can call us at 205 271 twenty nine eighty or you can send us an email at journey home at ewtn.com well Robert welcome back to the journey home great to be here it's good to have you back come all the way down from Vancouver that's right from the frozen north that frozen anymore though right this time here anyway sometimes I wonder you know I but when the thaw and then the free starts all over again but actually your part of the country is really warm yeah and the west coast RBC it's beautiful out there all right well on this episode of the journey home I always invite the guests just give a quick summary to remind the audience of your journey into the faith and then tonight particularly let me tell the audience now we're going to focus even though you work with the Divine Mercy shrine and that's usually what you deal with we want to focus on the theme of your book Saint Peter lives in Rome so those of you who are calling or sending emails we'd love to have questions about the Petrin office Saint Peter the Pope history of the Pope in Rome that's what Roberts books about st. Peter lives in Rome explaining the misunderstood mr. ministry of the Pope but first how about a little summary of your journey sure well my journey in a nutshell is I'm the son of a Protestant clergyman and a darn good one at that Protestant pastor so I'm a PK preacher's kid and I was brought up to believe a lot of good stuff about the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures but I was on a bit of a journey like you're the title of your program and as an undergraduate I got hooked up with an Episcopal Church which was conveniently right across the street from the freshman dormitory so I could roll out of bed on Sunday morning and just make it to the Eucharist there on Sundays and it was the Episcopal Church that opened up to me the whole history of the early church you know the liturgies the Anglican Church has a rich tradition of liturgy and and church history the Saints things like that and so gradually I became an Anglican and Ultima became an Anglican clergyman I was ordained actually in England when I went to England to study went to Oxford to study theology and ended up being ordained an Anglican priest in England but the journey wasn't over much to my surprise I thought it was but I got posted out to the west coast of BC to look after a few little tiny parish churches out there now you wouldn't even call in parish churches little missions kind of the the crumbs of the the diocese out there the Anglican Diocese and as a result I only had about 60 people look after on Sunday mornings so I had lots of extra time on my hands and so what I did with extra time as I started reading the church fathers a very dangerous thing to do and I as I was reading through some of the earliest Fathers saying RNAs I'm st. Justin Martyr st. Clement of Rome sending nations so what's all this about the Bishop of Rome then I never my textbooks never told me was here what's all this about Mary what's all this about the Eucharist and it became clear to me just the same path that John Henry Newman took really that the faith of the earliest Christians the earliest fathers that we have on record is implicitly or explicitly it's the faith of the Catholic Church today just recently on my radio program deep in Scripture which you can hear in EWTN on Wednesdays the person brought up this question dealing with st. Peter and the idea first of all was the two-part question one of the questions was the early church fathers that they had found a website where the anti Catholic Protestant was basically arguing that the early church fathers were not Catholic or didn't hold Catholic ideas and so that website was full of quotes defending that right and I didn't know if you had gone through that your journey yourself when you looked at how did how do Protestants how can they use the early church fathers and not end up Catholic yeah it's some often they'll use the argument from silence if somebody doesn't mention something that means they don't believe it that's the logic goes but we were talking about this just before the program weren't we Marcus that that's not true often people don't say things because they're so obvious to them that they don't think they need to repeat it let's look at the earliest church fathers that we have on record st. clement of rome end of the first century the the the church historians say that he learned the faith from the Apostles themselves and in fact one of the father's says he sat at the feet of the Apostles and still had their teachings ringing in his ears now what happens to st. st. Clement of Rome into the first century he gets an appeal from the church in Corinth which has been thousand miles away or so they're having dispute in Corinth now Corinth was one of the churches founded by the Apostles by saint paul and by saint john so a very prominent Christian Church but when they've got a dispute over their who the proper clergy are in that diocese they appeal it to Rome and Saint Clement answers the appeal and says you've got to restore your clergy to the point your posts and I order you to do so under penalty of sin now you can find other church fathers at the same time as Saint Clement or shortly afterwards who don't mention anything about the authority of Rome but it's not because they don't believe it when it's talked about it's clear but it's because they take it for granted nobody's disputing it the other question that came out gets us specifically into the Peter issuing that was Matthew sixteen they were saying that their professor at a college had told them that that verse about Matthew sixteen powered Peter and on this rock I'll build my church was added later by the church wasn't a part of the original documents well there's a lot of flaws that are argument anyway but did you deal with that in your own I do and and yeah there's lots of us where do you start first of all we don't have any texts of Matthew's Gospel no matter how back far back those texaco that don't include those verses so there's not the kind of manuscript tradition where those verses are missing or something every text of Matthew's Gospel that we have has those verses secondly look at the way Jesus talks in that verse he talks in a very Palestinian way he says blessed are You Simon son of John that's the way you refer to somebody when you're in talking Palestinian you call them Simon son of John you mentioned the father's name for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my father is in heaven notice Jesus says not the father or our Father he says my father which if you look at the rest of the Gospels is Jesus characteristic way of referring to his Heavenly Father and then he says I give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven well the keys as you know is an Old Testament reference the the keys were the are worn by the chief deputy of the king and the ancient Israelite Kingdom he wore the the keys of the King on his shoulder to show that he carried the authority of the King wherever he went so Jesus is saying is using and an ancient Israelite phrase the keys of the kingdom to say Peter I'm making you my chief deputy in my household in my royal Kingdom and then he says whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven whatever you well that's very early - that's the way the ancient rabbis in the first century talked about the authority to forbid and permit in the community of faith so all this is by way to say that everything about that passage speaks that it's comes from the first century and could very well have come from the lips of Jesus himself well Robert what what got you to write this book st. Peter lives in Rome was it because of your own struggle with that issue in your own journey or yeah in part because of my own struggle but I think everybody who coming into the Christian of the Catholic Church from another Christian Church comes up against this hurdle it's one of the distinctive things about Catholicism right the authority of the Bishop of Rome that we believe that the church has a visible head of course the invisible head of the church is Jesus Christ himself who fills the church with His Holy Spirit and guides it but we believe that just as there are visible hands and feet which are all of us in our various ministries and apostolates so there's also a visible unifying head which Jesus put in this in the church to just serve and secure its unity and in truth in love so it was precisely because I knew almost any convert coming to the Catholic Church has to wrestle with this one that's I did and also I knew there are very big books on this very excellent very big books in this topic but I wanted to write one that was kind of the Reader's Digest version of it where somebody didn't have time to go through lots of footnotes and things like that but just wanted to tackle it the topics and a weekend intense reading I just see an email here in fact I know my producer is working on it but I think I'll go with this email really quickly because it's it deals with the topic that we've dealt with before in the program but I think it'd be a good one to deal with a particularly issue that deals with in Matthew 16 passage comes from dick and he writes I recently heard one of the leading televangelist downplay the reference to Peter as the rock by stating that the original Greek word for rock was not as we understood you have an explanation a rebuttal he was obviously pointing to his leadership position has been justified by downplaying the role of Peter thank you okay I'm I'm not sure quite what the question is referring to but maybe he's referring to the fact that in Greek the Greek text says you are Petros and on this Petra I will build my church yes as a matter of fact in the footnotes I use a Protestant Study Bible I still use the one I've used for 30-some years because I've got all my notes in it anyway but I love to see the Protestant explanations on some of that and in the footnotes of my pride as a Study Bible is that very issue downplaying then the significant right what Jesus tried to say well the problem in Greek is of course Matthew was trying to translate from the language that Jesus spoke Aramaic into Greek and in Greek the word for rock is Petra it's a feminine word but he can't call Peter Petra because Peters a guy so that's why Saint Matthew writes that you are petrol smack masculine and on this Petra I will build my church but in in Aramaic the language Jesus spoke it would have been the exact same word you are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my church so Jesus is clearly saying you are rock your rocky and on this rock I will build my church the same word this rock meaning the one he's just mentioned Peter all right very good as you wrote your book I know it since you had to condense it down from the big tomes that are out there you probably had to Center in on what you considered very important issues for did you have an audience in mind that you were aiming and what are the particular issues that you felt important yeah I did I had a particularly insanest one that I was used to which was Anglicans Eastern Orthodox Christians who have their own set of questions about the Petra ministry the people come from a more evangelical background might be more concerned about the scripture passages and and I do deal with those in the book but I spent an extra amount of time on the witness of the church fathers to the Petra ministry because Anglicans an Eastern Orthodox historically say well we want to interpret Scripture according to the fathers and so they're not convinced that the witness of the fathers is clear to the early authority of Petra and primacy so other than the clement authority a bishop of rome in in rome over a church in greece a thousand miles away which really when you understand the history that and there's all kinds of political problems there right there's no no way you'd believe that the bishop of a church in rome would have any connection and let alone authority over a church in greece because of the battles between those countries and and in this case rome isn't just claiming it greece has appealed to rome and asked for rome to settle their dispute another good example here from the early church would be st. Irenaeus of leo now st. iron asses of fascinating character 'is lives in the second he learned the faith from Saint Polycarp a man who was martyred at the age of 86 in 156 ad Saint Polycarp had learned the faith from the Apostle John himself so with Saint Irenaeus here at the end of the second century but your only one removed from the Apostles and st. iron ass is educated in the East but he becomes Bishop of Leo in Gaul in the West so he unites each stand West in his own person there's a famous quote from st. Irenaeus in his book against heresies 2nd century when he's writing against some of the heresies have cropped up some of the distortions of the Christian faith and he said he says where will we find the true faith we'll find it in those churches that were founded by the Apostles themselves those sees those bishoprics if you will they were founded by the apostasy says I can't go through all those it said nor the time to do it but I'll just mention one he says the very great church founded by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul and then he says it's a matter of necessity that every church agrees with this church on account of its preeminent authority that is the faithful from everywhere who hold the truth faith everywhere so he says look if you have any doubt about what the Christian faith really is refer to Rome it's the touchstone of Orthodoxy because it's it's teaching tradition is founded by the two most glorious Apostles Peter and Paul again this is a very early witness in this case to the teaching authority and the Bishop of Rome now from an evangelical standpoint which is where I came from is even a problem you know I would i remember reading that and being very struck by that but I was struck by it not at the same level that an Anglican or Episcopalian or an Orthodox Christian would because I was struck more on the idea that a bishop had Authority you know I was evangelical perspective me and Jesus you know where two or more gathered in your name there am I in the midst of you but the idea that there was this hierarchical Authority and that a man a you know a pastor over in France is pointing back to a bishop in Rome mm-hmm all right but but from an Orthodox Anglican perspective even hi Trish Luton man nice try Church Lutheran's are in the same ballpark but to certain extent Orthodox and Anglicans look at the early days of the church as common history right the Catholics they would say yeah okay I agree with that well what first of all what are the problems that an Anglican or an Orthodox would see with that passage in terms of the Petron authority okay well first of all they might get picky and say he doesn't actually mention the passage from Matthew 16 basing Rome's authority on Matthew 16:18 well again this is another argument from silence he doesn't mention it therefore doesn't believe it maybe doesn't mention it because everybody accepted it in fact I'll give you some evidence that everybody accepted it in the fourth century that Pope st. amesys hears about a canon which has passed at a council that says that Constantinople shall be the second sea of Christendom because it's new Rome in other words because it's the new Roman capital right and Demeter's writes a decree of Damascus and he says no that's not the basis on which the bishop bricks have authority in the church not because they're the imperial capital but because they come from there founded by the Apostle Peter who is the chief apostle founded by Christ when he says on this rock I will build my church and you know what he publishes that to Creed not one of the Church Fathers ever disputes it even though some of the greatest Church Fathers were alive at the time and shortly thereafter st. Augusta the st. Jerome st. basil the great st. gregory nazianzen none of them disputes it because it was just common great fathers from the eastern church yeah from the east as well yeah yeah yeah what about what other issues would they have I mean they might try to say well maybe Rome only had a primacy of Honor they would call it say well supremacy of Honor because well Rome was the imperial capital and and yeah the Peter and Paul were martyred there but Rome didn't have any primacy of jurisdiction or any teaching authority over the other churches well from what you've already said I mean look at st. Clement Irenaeus this is first and second century in Saint Clement you see appellate jurisdiction of the see of Rome over other churches it's a court of appeal where people can bring their disputes so they can be settled so that church can keep together and oneness and the teaching authority of Rome witness to by its inerrant ass well I do want to encourage the audience to go to the religious catalogue EWTN religious catalogue you can find Roberts book Saint Peter lives in Rome for more details but we might get to more of that as we take some of your calls and emails I did see an email that yes here we go email from Kathleen so I'm a big fan she's right speaking to you Robert I'm a big fan of your Q&A column on the Divine Mercy org what is the biggest misunderstanding that Catholics have of the papacy Thank You Kathleen okay one of the biggest misunderstandings recently is that some people who wanted to send from the teaching of the Pope and the Catholic tradition will say well if the Pope hasn't defined at X Cathedral he hasn't made an a special infallible Proclamation then I don't have to believe it okay so they'll try to say well let's just say the only things we really have to believe are those handful of things actually where the Pope has decreed as universally binding on the whole church settled a doctrinal dispute or something say something doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of Mary but the ex cathedra statements of the Pope a pope only does that really to settle in a dispute or in some special matter that's a dividing chris andaman and the catholic church has finally come to a common mind on it perhaps but the ordinary teaching authority of the Pope is called this ordinary Magisterium and the church's faith has always been that when the Pope and the bishops in communion with him speak in a definitive manner that when they proclaimed this is the Catholic faith like they do in the Catechism then they're guided by the Holy Spirit to do that there's no way that the Holy Spirit would allow the Pope and the bishops by consensus to lead the church astray so it's not just a handful of people decrees down through his that authoritative for us Catholics but in fact the whole teaching tradition guarded by the Pope and the bishops together we have a call from Rashad from floor hello Rashad I think you've called us before what's your question for it's a night market you're awesome you're the reason I'm Catholic today no breeze bad yeah but my question is recently it seems that the Holy See has been working more fervently for the reconciliation of the East and the West you know the patriarch of Constantinople was that the opening those the years that paul and all that so i think my question really is how didn't think that Holy Fathers role in church will be modified if the exit of the patriarch and the Eastern Orthodox churches are eventually reconciled with Rome in a sense that's the $64 question isn't it Pope John Paul in his encyclical hood on him sent 1995 on on acute is 'm he basically opened the door to the Eastern Orthodox and said let's sit down and discuss the nature of the primacy of Rome let's look at it again in the light of our common desire to be one and in a way that doesn't violate anything that's essential about the the Roman primacy because the Pope was saying well maybe some of the things in canon law that that the Pope does has authority over those are maybe historical accretions they're not necessarily of the essence of the Roman ministry but that's precisely what the ecumenical commissions are looking at right now practically even as we speak just a few months ago Cardinal Kasper and in Rome came out with a very important statement he said for the first time the Eastern Orthodox have been willing to admit that there's a universal primacy needed in the church before they would say well there was only a kind of historic primacy of Honor in Rome but there isn't need a need for a pastor of pastors who has any real kind of linking authority for the the bishops of the world but actually there's been a big breakthrough an ecumenical dialogue in this respect they still got a long way to go can I predict the call is that can we how the the exercise of the Roman primacy will change only in one general sense and that's that certainly the Church of Rome will in a reunited Chris ISM which God willing well will happen the church breathing with both its lungs east and west in a reunited Christendom the Pope and the patriarchs of the East will walk together will Shepherd the church in a collegial fashion I'm sure they will still under Roman leadership in primacy but sharing a common shepherding of the universal church that some would be called to pray for every day I mean it's called the church to hope that dialog will open dialog is not a compromise of what's true it's just getting it on a table so we can see we believe that's right so we can discuss all right you have an email from Judy in Maryland she writes hi Marcus and dr. Stackpole exactly how did you reconcile people / apostolic succession to yourself let alone your family friends and colleagues what passage of Scripture do you feel most strongly supports papal / a pisaq succession when discussing the issue with non Catholics thank you so much god bless you both that's a good question the of course in one sense apostles can't have successors they're the foundational witnesses of Jesus Christ's saving work but look what Jesus does was apostles after as a resurrection he gives them a commission the Great Commission right Christ um says go therefore and make disciples of all nations well that's a nice job it can't possibly be fulfilled by those twelve guys in their lifetime so already implicit here in the Commission he's given them is that their ministry has to carry on beyond their lifetime it has to be carried out by future generations of apostolic leaders to ultimately fulfill the commission that Christ gave us and you see in the in the early church you see the Apostles extending delegating their own authority to missionary delegates for example look how Paul treats Timothy and Titus these are his missionary delegates and he says to Timothy and Titus okay you go do ordain press Peters you here if their charges against pres Peters in the church you decide you keep the faith so he's already delegating to Timothy and Titus they're kind of Regional overseers of the Missionary Church as he founded he's already delegating authority to them and that's what happens with the apostolic succession the authority for pastoral leadership in the church comes from the Apostles to their missionary delegates as they as it were precisely to fulfill that original Commission - what does Jesus say make disciples of all nations though I'm with you to the end of time which is a good little hint saying this is gonna take birth right to the end of time to complete this commission I remember when I had to go through that same journey because the the question was wanting a little bit for my perspective - and I think everything you've said is I'm ever going through those same steps books that helped me with some books by father Stanley yaki and some wonderful books on keys of the kingdom and they were very helpful to me not those other books like yours but you mentioned earlier that the silence on certain issues and as a first of Congress well Ridgely Luther and then a Congregationalist and then a Protestant Presbyterian pastor you know we were always trying to find our brand of church government in the Bible Presbyterians looking for elders you know the congregations are looking for independent churches with no connection to anyone else and of course Episcopalians are looking for bishops and and what's if you're only going to take the data that's in the Bible you can basically come up with any government you want because there are a variety of descriptions you can see independent communities that seem on the surface to have no connection but again it gets us back to this issue of silence I think that's very important what what makes sense in the early church in terms of those things that they would have so taken for granted that the the writers of the Gospels and the New Testament letters would not have mentioned because there was no need to mention and I was mentioning before the program Robert I were talking about I was reading recently a history of the city of Boston and it was written in 1830 and was talking about the history of Boston from 1630 until 1830 and I noticed that in the description of Boston there's no detailed description of what how the roads were made what what materials that were used in the roads or what building materials were in the houses or the largest structures or even what kind of transportation they used but when you think about it there isn't a big radical change between 1630 and 1830 still horses still buggies it's taken for granted yeah dirt roads gravel roads wooden houses maybe made out of brick that they've built I mean there's no difference there's no reason for them to discuss it if you're writing a history of Boston today we might want to talk about that the same thing when you look at the continuity of the old testament church all the way through to the new testament church the continuity you see there's always a leader of the church from the beginning Abraham Isaac Jacob Moses David Solomon you know there's always there's the the chair of Moses yeah in fact that's that very thing you're talking about there's a fascinating passage from one of the Desert Fathers of the east sent Macarius of Egypt and he says that the chair of Moses was given to lead the people of God and that was passed down even to Caiaphas the high priest and ultimately says now it's held by Peter and his successors who Shepherd the church and look after the Church of God so it's it's a matter of continuity another thing perhaps on this issue is the matter of development of doctrine sometimes some aspects of the church's faith they're there implicitly but it from the beginning but only in seed form it takes the Saints and the father's generations and generations to think about things to pray about them as they unpack what was given to them from the Apostles from the beginning so take for example the role of the bishops we know that the Apostles appointed people to carry on their leadership ministry in the church we know that from the earliest church fathers we know that they delegated people to extend their authority and look after things on their behalf in the scriptures Timothy and Titus for example but right from the beginning it's not clear that there's supposed to be one bishop in each area or many bishops some areas there were groups of bishops and there was only one right and so that has to be sorted out an impact and it's not clear how much authority each local bishop has as compared with synod's of bishops or councils in where those authorities stops and where that authority stops and so these are things that the church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit over time unpacks same thing with the Ministry of the Bishop of Rome we know that Jesus founded the church on the rock of Peter gave Peter the keys the authority to bind and loose but what does all that mean in a concrete situation where the church is divided how far does that authority extend how does that authority work visa vie the other pastors and bishops in the church well that's something that sorts sorts itself out over time it's all there you can find the seeds of it from the beginning but like you say if you're just gonna go to scripture alone gosh you could justify almost I mean we're gonna get in trouble I mean in some ways you take the scenario that makes the most sense of what you find in Scripture and if you assume the continuity of this hierarchical leadership then it makes sense that in the Upper Room Peter takes charge it makes sense that in Pentecost he preaches the first sermon I mean you see it makes sense in the context and then when that first consul meets and consults with Peter and sends a letter all the churches are to hear this letter and abide by them hmm I mean that makes sense of a wide continuity of this hierarchical leadership now here's a something that actually comes up from Anglicans an Eastern Orthodox today modern Anglicans an Eastern Orthodox might say but you know the the tradition was that we can't know whether something's been authoritative Lee taught by the church until it's been received by all the faithful all around the world only then can we be sure when everybody agrees well gosh if you applied that test I don't know any of the early church councils ever would have been accepted as authoritative look at the Council of Chalcedon which defined and clarified that Jesus is one divine person in two natures human and divine II he's fully human and fully divine all of Syria and Egypt rejected that council and broke off into schism it wasn't received by the whole church so and then you have to ask yourself if that were true if Universal reception were necessary what percent of the church would have to receive it 60 percent 70 80 90 and for how long 50 years a hundred years five hundred years and how would you measure it by opinion poll by universal election or something so that's not the way the early church did thanks you mentioned that early council look at the Apostles they come together Peter and the Apostles in council they make a decision in acts 15 about admitting Gentiles to the church without requiring circumcision and then they write a letter and it says in acts 15 28 it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these things in other words we're not just proposing something that you might or might not receive we're saying this comes with the authority of the Holy Spirit it was decided by the leaders of the church before the people out in the hinterland even knew it was an issue exactly so then they were told what the church had decided backwards right in this case they were preventing a lot of trouble not rather than responding to all right we will come back in a moment I can already see we had a long list of emails and phone calls so we seem to be with your questions welcome back to the journey home our guest tonight is dr. Robert Stack Paul we've been discussing his book st. Peter lives in Rome but really discussing more the topic but the book is available on ewtn religious catalogue or you can go to a website tell about the website once again the Divine Mercy website comes out of the National Shrine of the Divine Mercy and it's WWV Divine Mercy org and there they have excerpt from the book right now on the on I think the home page so you can go there and read a portion of it and see what it's like speaking of Divine Mercy some people may not think that that having a pope is a Divine Mercy why is it in fact a great mercy that Jesus gave us st. Peter as our Pope well yeah I think it's a gift of his shepherds love really Jesus knows his sheep really well and anybody who knows sheep anybody's been a shepherd or seen shepherds at work know that they do tend to wander off unity is not their strong point stinky dirty and dumb and so what is Jesus the invisible Shepherd the church give us through His Holy Spirit but a visible Shepherd now the the are visible Shepherds the Pope's are sinful fallible human beings in most respect just like the rest of us but Jesus establishes this ministry to help keep the church in that unity of faith in communion without which well you see what happens to our Christian brothers and sisters who don't have that Center of unity tense things tend to fragment and so Christ foresees the problem and establishes a principle of unity now let's face it's not the only principle of unity in the church it's an essential principle but there's other essential ones to people allowing the Holy Spirit to fill their lives and living in Christian love that's just as essential because one thing I don't want people to do if they read my book has become all convinced on the Petron ministry and then go beat over other people over the head with it we've got to speak the truth in love yeah Christ foresaw the need for unity and provided a defying shaft right to divine mercy exactly it's that we have we've been given this leadership that we see immediately in Scripture and it's really humbling now there's been a few Pope's throughout history that have pushed the envelope right yeah they're sure half first of all in terms of corruption there's the Renaissance popes and I sometimes like to say the Renaissance popes are the best argument for the papal ministry because if if the papacy was a mere human creation then a renaissance Pope's would have corrupted the faith of the church they were corrupt in every other respect financially sexually all sorts of sordid ways but here the Holy Spirit steps in and does just what jesus promised protects those bourgeois popes corrupt as they were from corrupting the faith of the church so it's a sure sign that the papacy even in his darkest moments is the rock of the church yeah there I forget who it was I first heard that if instead of Leo the tenth and and those Cardinals that Luther had to deal with we had had John Paul the second different stem Cardinal Ratzinger than the Reformation would have been a whole different story yeah in terms of the way they would approach that and there was a hilarious yeah that's the famous case where some people who were trying to argue against the infallible teaching authority of the Pope will bring up Pope Honorius when or it's in the seventh century let's try to tell the story here there was a patriarch in Constantinople named Sergius who had got it in his mind that Jesus was fully human except he didn't have a fully human will in a divine willpower not a human willpower and he wrote to Pope Honorius at the time and he said I think Christ had only one will because you see Jesus never disobeyed the Father notice the trick there okay and unnoticed writes back and says you're right Jesus had only one will just like Adam before the fall now Adam before the fall had a fully human will a fully human will that always obeyed God so all the Pope was saying was that Jesus fully human will always obeyed the father's will right but Sergius and Constantinople seized upon this phrase that Christ has only one will and he said you see the Pope agrees with my heresy right and later on an ecumenical council of the church actually condemns Honorius as a heretic but of course the council has no authority without a ratification by the Pope and the Pope's of the time they wouldn't agree to the condemnation they said Honorius should be condemned not because a heretic but because he failed to see the trick you failed to recognize heresy when it rose up before i'm and failed to condemn it properly but now nuria's himself wasn't a heretic he was kind of tricked into using the heretics language if you will besides the the fact another part of this issue is that on aureus wrote to Sergius in a private letter well the Catholic Church has never claimed that Pope's are infallible in their private letters of course bar ah Pope's can say heretical things over the breakfast table in private letters even in sermons there's a medieval pope john xxii in the 14th century who gave an ax reticle sermon and his successor Pope Benedict condemned the sermon and put out an infallible definition of faith just to nail the thing shot because we believe as Catholics that the Pope is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error when he definitively teaches the whole church on faith and morals not when he's talking like you and I are over the breakfast table now even when he's he's just talking one on one we we presume of course he's the chief pastor of the church the Holy Spirit there's a presumption of truth the Holy Spirit's gonna be with him but that's different than his definitive pronouncements directed to the whole universal Church all right and you deal with more of this in your book write your lives in Rome so again encourage the book if you've got interest in this area let's take a card and call our Tricia from Connecticut hello Patricia what's your question for us in 1969 I was married to my husband I like he a Baptist in my parish church increased and his minister in 39 years I have not been able to have some understand that Peter Rock etc he said they paid a physicist he wants truth he said it could be mean a million things it couldn't mean a grain of sand it could mean a pebble it could mean an amoeba I don't know what it means but for that she is a Catholic how do you hope okay well first of all if Jesus meant pebble grain of sand or amoeba how would it fit the context on this pebble grain or sand or amoeba I build my church it doesn't really fit Jesus is talking about what gives strength and solidity to his church but I'll give you another bit of scriptural evidence here notice that Jesus uses the future tense there he says on this rock I will I will build my church future tense says the same thing in st. Luke's Gospel Peter I prayed for you that when you turn again you'll strengthen your brethren that means that sometime in the future Peter is going to be the rock of the church not then but in the future because then he's sinking in the waves of the sea his misunderstanding Jesus ministry he's about to deny him three times he's no rock at that point okay but later it's after his resurrection where Jesus actually Commission's him and Jesus says to Peter three times feed my lambs feed my sheep tend my sheep amongst the ancient rabbis and that was a way that you commissioned somebody and take on a ministry you repeated the thing three times over so the person didn't made sure they got it right so it's not only that passage in Matthew 16 but it connects with Jesus being told he's going to be the strength of the app Peter being told he's going to be the strength of the apostolic band and then also ultimately Peter made the chief Shepherd of the church notice in in that passage as John 21 Jesus doesn't say feed your sheep he says feed my sheep who were his sheep Hebrews 13 2002 the sheet the whole church is Jesus flock Jesus sheep so Peters being put as the chief shepherd of the whole universal Church let's think another problem that this one was gonna have with a baptist husband there's really a problem in America in many ways because ever since the beginning of America in the 16 2016 30 when you have the these colonies established on the east coast of of this continent most of your Puritans many ways other than the Virginia colonies but there was some assumptions that were radically different than our Catholic assumptions most Puritans basically believed most Protestant evangelical reform type basically believed that Christ left us a book to live by our relationship with Christ we discovered through scripture scripture is our Authority mhm that's what base is our faith is this inspired Word of God Catholics we believe this is right we've got but that's the context of the faith as Catholics through two thousand years we believe that Christ left us a church an authoritative church around Peter out of that came the book out of that is tradition and so you have a church versus a book so understanding how Peter fits in is harder for a person that basically sees their faith based on a book on Scripture well then what about how is Peter fit into that equation right whereas when you understand that Christ left us a church we become a part of the body of Christ through baptism we're part of the body then having a head of a body makes sense and so dealing with the peak Petra issue is one thing but even taking step back and looking at the problem with only a faith based on a book versus a faith established in a church is another starting point to to back up a bit absolutely and notice that I think as you just pointed out the church is called the body of Christ and the scriptures are called the Word of God you can't you can't separate Church and word you can't pull them apart because they're they're both grounded and founded in him I was thinking as you were talking Marcus another thing about so the American experiences we believe very strongly in Liberty and the importance of Liberty I've just see if I could locate an important quote in this book while he's looking for that you look for it I'll read the next email ok very good ok we'll do it that way and then they'll give you a little time to look through there this comes from Bryan from New York Marcus and Robert other than it being the imperial capital what is the significance of Rome itself that is if Peter had remained at Antioch and had been in some other city in Italy or say Spain or call would that have affected the church and the papacy it comes from Brian from New York ok well first of all why is Rome significant because Peter ultimately went there and died there and passed on the leadership ministry then of the church the principal leadership many passed passes on in that city so that's that's one reason we know that the Rome has to be essential a second reason is is really it's the it's a sign of the ultimate triumph of the church isn't it I mean after all in the New Testament Rome is not a place of honor or anything like that Rome is called Babylon right it's the center of moral corruption of the world so that the fact that the center of the church could ultimately be planted right at the heart of the evil empire if you can use star wars language right and ultimately will triumph over the evil empire is a sign of how ultimately the the faith of Christ will triumph even over these tremendous worldly powers which seem so strong and so I mean just think of your in the first century could you possibly have believed that this tiny little Christian movement would ultimately triumph over the great and mighty Roman Empire no way but it's as it were you know God showing that he triumphs through weakness by planting the center of his church right at the center of the evil empire in fact there's a book about that written by a well-known writer named Agustin called the City of God there you go that's what he talked about and that was the whole point of his book City of God is this this is great the type of the kingdom in Rome so recommend that book though it's not an easy read but yeah you know Marcus I was trying to think of the the other aspect to notice about a lot of Protestant Christians are very strong on Christian Liberty which is a good thing I think well if you have such an authority in the church the Bishop of Rome doesn't that make us all slaves of the Pope well first of all the Catholic Church like any church is a voluntary organization the Catholic Church has never definitively taught that people should be forced to be part of it and join it now there have been some overzealous Catholics who behaved that way like the Spanish Inquisition things like that but that was never the official Church teaching and I was thinking that too now the quota I was kind of looking for but I just couldn't put my finger on it was actually from the Polish constitution of 1791 now Poland that most Catholic of all nations in many ways at the same time we're writing our constitution here Poland was writing its own constitution for its new government and basically I said this they said the Catholic religion shall be the official religion of Poland the guiding religion of Poland but because the gospel tells us were to love our neighbors therefore we promised peace and liberty to all people of all professions in this land and so that I think is the true Catholic spirit yea we believe that the Catholic faith is the truest faith but the Catholic faith tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves and do unto others and therefore we promise Liberty and when we're behaving ourselves as true followers of Christ they give others Liberty to follow their own guy here we are the weekend after July 4th yeah and remembering that that in fact that that myth about the slavery of Catholics under the the of Babylon mm-hmm and all that was part of what Sam Adams said to get people riled up because they were afraid of the what had just been decided for the bishop of Quebec and the freedom of right of that and they were using that as one of the last final wedges they got the Lord riding straight with crooked lines yeah let's take our call to say and from New York hello and I'm hi dr. Sam oh hi um I wanted to first thank you for such a great look I've really enjoyed it and I appreciate you taking difficult information and making it very easy for us to understand Thanks I'm curious as a professor what is it in the book when you will be searching the book for instance if you'd find most interesting and and most fascinating all right yeah thank you very much I think the thing I found most fascinating was the witness of some of the eastern fathers of the church to the Petrin primacy I'd often heard it said that the Western fathers of course they recognized the authority of Rome but the East never really did so well I found that in the 4th century in the 5th century you found eastern fathers of the church some of the greatest ones like st. Athanasius st. basil st. Cyril when they have a controversy in the East that just can't be settled they appeal to Rome to settle it and when they do so they don't just do sort of some kind of novelty because they got nothing else to do they actually write out and they say and what we're doing is not anything that wasn't done by blessed and religious men of former times or we're doing what's according to the ancient custom of the churches right so this was a novel if the authority in Rome was a novelty in the 4th or 5th century in the East that never would have written like that and then there's a great quote Frank st. Maximus the Confessor 7th century Eastern Saint one of the most revered of the Eastern Fathers and it's a beautiful quote I got in the book where he says from the very founding of the church and the coming of the word incarnate the whole church has looked to Rome as the basis of its stability because Jesus said on this rock I will build my church and he gave Peter the keys and Peter has those keys and he opens the door of the church to those who hold the truth faith and shuts it to the heretics right and so I was really surprised that the caller's question to find all that amongst the eastern fathers I was pretty sure you'd you'd find it amongst those who are kind of geographically closer to Rome you know but it was in the eastern fathers too that was really important to me all right we have another emails comes from Francis he writes Marcus I have heard that in the past the Anglican Church in America had an understanding of inter communion with the Greek Orthodox in case of emergency do you know if this is true and is it still true God bless your show thanks Francis now he's sorry he's talking about the Anglican Church yes in America with an understanding of inter communion with the Greek Orthodox in case of emergency could very well be I don't know that it's still true probably I would doubt it still true because the the Orthodox are much more careful these days about who they're in inter communion with right they really incest two issues they wouldn't agree with the angle absolutely yeah being facetious whole bunch of them now yeah and the Orthodox who really insist that you can't be in communion with the Orthodox unless you hold the faith as the Byzantine tradition has held it and the Anglicans don't by any means now maybe they were closer to it some generations ago but that's also why there's a barrier to even emergency inter communion with the Catholics because as the the caller the person who wrote in the question may know Catholics are permitted to receive communion in an Eastern Orthodox Church and Eastern Orthodox in a Catholic Church under certain emergency special circumstances but generally that's not reciprocated from the Orthodox they they still insist no you have to be fully fully Orthodox to receive Communion whereas we look at the Orthodox Church and say well there are sister churches they have the apostolic succession of Bishops they have the Eucharist and so not as a general rule but in exceptional circumstances it's okay to receive let's say that we have some in our audience than a moment or two that are not Catholics or maybe Catholics struggling with the issue of the authority of Peter in Rome but to say the audience there's those in the audience that are just not there yet right how about a word of encouragement working what can they do to take the first step another step closer to understanding why Jesus gave us Peter okay I think that Jesus knows for knows our weakness isn't the the old song jesus knows our every weakness take it to the Lord in prayer huh well the fact is that Christians sometimes taken to the Lord in prayer and they still end up dividing because the scripture says wherever two or three are gathered in my name there's an argument so they can still be divided and Jesus must have foreseen this must have especially if the persons from an evangelical background what's the biggest obstacle to the spread of the gospel in the world the divisions amongst Christians people who are non-christians and throughout the world say how can you tell us you have a gospel of that's gonna heal the world a few Christians can't even be United amongst yourselves surely Jesus foresaw this problem and established a center of unity which could ultimately settle these kind a highest court of appeal if you will that could ultimately settle these these kind of disputes and enable the church to to walk together you know it's funny to think about that upper room experience when it's decided to replace Judas right but to try and repaint that picture with any of the other modern Protestant you know non Catholic traditional ways of making decisions in their local churches if that's the way it had been in the upper room I think about when I was a Congregationalist I mean they would have had to bend or even a Quaker or someone you're waiting for a spirit to lead right instead of having what we had which was Peter taking the leadership in that position and he wasn't asking for a you know a democratic vote on how we're gonna do this he told them how they're gonna do it's important the word you use a Marcus leadership not dictatorship the papacy is not an absolute monarchy this is not louis xiv in ecclesiastical dress okay they're they're actually appropriate limits in canon law on papal action mostly the pope's are guided by the church to respect local customs as long as they don't violate the unity of faith the church all right Robert thanks for joining home god bless you thank you for joining us been fun see you again next week

Channel: EWTN

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Keywords: Catholic, EWTN, Christian, television, Anglican Communion (Religious Organization), Pastor, Priest (Profession)

Id: YGyV74kTTGI

Length: 56min 25sec (3385 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 05 2015