Rediscovering God Rupert Sheldrake

the title of this evenings talk is called rediscovering God and there's an actual word for that which I only discovered myself recently it's called Ana theism everyone knows what theism is it's belief in God everyone knows what atheism is it's disbelief in God and theism is returning to God or going back to God and this is something that many people do as part of a personal journey it's something that I myself have done as I'll say in a moment it's also becoming a kind of social movement and the interesting thing is you see that about 30 40 50 years ago it was assumed by most educated people and intellectuals that religion would just fade away you know the Communists in Russia the Bolshevik Revolution just assumed that the hold of religion would fade away within a couple of generations that just be a few old women left in crumbling churches and the general assumption has been among intellectuals that religions are things the past science and reason to what leaders onwards into the future I used to believe that myself but religion hasn't gone away it's partly come back in fairly noxious fundamentalist forms which have got a lot of people scared and probably rightly so but it's also coming back in intellectual life even atheists are now recognizing that religions here to stay so one of the things they've been exercising themselves about recently is trying to explain how it got to be there they'd like to think that it's somehow hardwired into human brains these illusions that people accept them seem to need hardwired into human brains and they speculate as how this could have got there through Darwinian natural selection the atheist philosopher Daniel Dennett for example has speculated that a gene for credulity has been built into all of us through natural selection because people who are more Angeles would believe the mumbo jumbo of shaman's and witch doctors and because they believed this mumbo-jumbo they get better from diseases by the placebo effect and and therefore the B natural selection for credulity genes not a terribly plausible theory in my opinion but the the the fact that atheist philosophers are now desperately trying to explain why this is the case is interesting it's also an interesting movement here going on in Britain and America of a kind of growth of an atheist religion one of Britain's leading atheist philosophers Alain de Botton wrote a book a couple of years ago which was a best-seller in Britain and in the United States called religion for atheists and Alain de Botton starts off by saying I was raised atheist his father was a Jewish banker in Zurich he said I was raised atheist I took it for granted there was no God my parents treated anyone who showed the slightest interest in religion as if they were suffering from a terminal degenerative disease and and he said and I just take it for granted there's no God but I'm talking about atheism to point naught he said I'm not interested in arguing against God I'm interested in seeing what happens if you get rid of God and in his book it's rather interesting he shows the ways in which people's lives are in fact impoverished through the lack of religion nowhere to gather and sing together on Sundays instead of having sermons which he points out a talks designed to help you lead a better life you just have lectures which give factual content with no guidance at all and so instead of having models of virtue there are no models of virtue so he has this rather bleak picture of the secular world and he's now trying to lead a movement to reinstate religion for atheists he's funding an atheist temple in London they've started a series of churches called the sunday assembly atheist churches and in in London he started the son sermon the thing I'm not sure how that well that will do and that regular sermons are only about 10 minutes long and they're embedded in the middle of a service full of singing and other things that actually engage the attention if you go to an atheist Sunday a sermon all you get is a one hour long sermon anyway this is a movement that's going on at the moment and it's arousing a lot of discussion and debate within Britain and it's part of this general tendency of rediscovering God what I want to do first is say something about my own personal path then I'm going to talk about how we got this situation today what the key difference between atheism and theism is and how we can move forward into a new way of understanding divine consciousness one of the points about Anna theism is that going back to God in the modern world involves doing so both in the context of eighth years of learning from atheism because it's a purifying movement that's done a lot to purify a lot of rubbish out of religions it but also any movement back to God has to take into account there are so many different religious traditions it's not going to be possible to have a kind of tunnel vision about any particular one my own journey is I was raised in a Methodist family in a small town in England I went to an Anglican boarding school so I had a fairly conventional religious Christian upbringing but as part of my scientific education I easily I quickly realized that my science teachers most of them were atheists and that they regarded atheist was the normal position to have if you're a scientist it's not part of the standard scientific worldview science and atheism go together that was their view I wanted to be a scientist so it was part of a package deal which I simply accepted I was the only boy in my year at school who refused to get confirmed at the age of 14 and when I went Cambridge as an undergraduate I eagerly joined the Cambridge humanist association the the atheist organization for undergraduates um however after going to a few meetings I began to find it all a bit dull the meeting that sticks in my mind most of all is when we were addressed by the great biologist sir Julian Huxley um who was a leading humanists and atheists in Britain and he was speaking to us about the importance of humans taking control of the evolutionary process and improving the human race now negative eugenics was out of fashion by then as a result of the excesses of Nazi breeding policies in the second before the Second World War but positive eugenics was still fashionable among humanists like Huxley and his answer for the improvement of the human race was the fathering of a new breed of super children who'd be fathered using a fairly simple technology sperm donation and he enumerate enumerated the qualities which the sperm donors of the present age should have in order to create create this uplift in humanity it turned out the ideal sperm donor was someone who came from a long scientific lineage who had a great academic achievements in biology or other sciences who came from a distinguished family who had good health who was highly esteemed in public life etc in other words the ideal sperm donor turned out to be so Julien himself I forgot this incident which happened when I was a second year undergraduate for a long time until a couple of years ago we were visiting a friend of ours at Frances Huxley the son of Sir Julian who's now in his 80s he's living in California 90 he's now 90 and he's living in California and soon before we arrived he'd had a series of letters from people in England saying they had reason to believe they might be his half brothers or half sisters and could they have DNA swabs for a day a test because they thought that they'd been conceived by artificial insemination from a special sperm donor bank that had been set up in Britain etc Francis refused to give swabs the last thing he wanted to do in his in it when he was 90 year to have hundreds of half sisters and half brothers showing up as part of his father's eugenic project anyway it all seemed a bit thin and there I wanted to believe the universe was nothing but machinery and there was no God and no consciousness and it was just blind chance that had given rise to everything I found it a strain it was particularly a strain when I fell in love and I was to say at the time I was in love they had this lovely girlfriend I I was trying to come to terms of these emotions and I was going to physiology lectures where we had a series on steroid hormones and and I learned the chemical formula of testosterone and progesterone and estrogen and so on and learned about how these affected different parts of the brain I learned about the nerve impulses but somehow it seemed to leave something out and I began to feel that just wasn't enough and then in the biochemistry department at Cambridge I saw a big wall poster of human metabolic reactions all the different arrows of the chemical reactions inside our bodies and someone had written across the top in big blue letters know thyself and again the gap between this list of chemicals and chemical reactions and the experience of being alive just seemed unbridgeable a huge I began to feel that something was wrong with mechanistic science and I began to look at more holistic ideas I started with the ideas of Goethe the German poet and botanist and got more and more interested in a more holistic approach to science but I was still an atheist at this stage and I was really trying to find a better way forward for science a more inclusive holistic way of understanding life in 1968 I had a scholarship from the Royal Society to go and study of tropical plants in in Malaya at the University of Malaya and on the way there sponsored by the Royal Society I traveled through India India in 1968 was a very exciting place to be and as I traveled through India I encountered gurus and ashrams and temples and pilgrimages and it opened my eyes to range of phenomena I was completely unfamiliar with when I got back to England I got interested in exploring consciousness psychedelics were around at the time and so after I had a very psycho psycho Derek experiences which convinced me that the mind was vastly greater than anything I'd been told about in my scientific education it just didn't seem to map on to these experiences then I got interested in Transcendental Meditation because I wanted to be able to explore consciousness without drugs or as well as with drugs and so I that was very convincing in the nineteen around 1970 the way they put this across in the Transcendental Meditation Center in Cambridge was you don't need to believe anything because they knew that most young people were allergic to the idea of God so no idea of God or saints or beliefs it's just physiological you do this it blurs the lactic acid levels in the blood it stimulates the brain and the right position of places to create relaxation it was portrayed as a purely a physiological way of achieving well-being in calmness well that was fine by me it worked I doing it and I didn't need to believe in anything beyond my own brain but I I was intrigued by India and by yoga and by meditation and in 1974 I had a chance to go and work in India as the principle plant physiologist at the International crops Research Institute in Hyderabad and I was thrilled by the idea of immersing myself in this exotic and fascinating culture when I was in India I visited temples ashrams I went to discourses by gurus and I had a number of adventures and some of them bizarre I mean there are some aspects of Hinduism are deeply profound other aspects are simply bizarre and one example this has actually got into a book I told the story soon afterwards in London to somebody who told it to an Indian writer called Gita Mehta and she put this in her book karma Cola but this was a I was visiting this guru who was supposed to be a miracle worker and he was famous for causing messages to float from the ceiling you'd be sitting there and sheets of paper would float down from the ceiling with profound messages on them so I went to see him hoping to get a profound message float down but because I was a foreign scientist he decided I needed something more special than just a message which was the odour of sanctity now there's a tradition in many cultures that holy men have a sweet smell the odour of sanctity and so he said to me he said I I am having the odour of sanctity and so I said oh yes and and he said I will show you come with me he's had come so he took me I followed him and he led me into a lavatory and there was this toilet and he locked the door and I found myself in this lavatory with with a famous guru in his orange robes and he said my urine will turn to rosewater so he got out a mug he got it off a shelf and he you watch and I thought I should have bertin my eyes but no no he insisted so I watched him pee into this metal tumbler and then he gave it to me it is for you so so I I said well let's go back to the so we went back to the room and I described what had happened to people there now the trouble is my skeptical mind was racing through I hadn't seen the mug before he peed into it had he put concentrated rosewater into it before he peed a century did smell of roses and and and so there everybody there was amazed by this they said this is a very great blessing so I said well it's such a great blessing I feel I must share it so um I was able to get away with any of the tiniest sip since everybody there was so anyway these are adventures in search of you know the spirits and stuff I've many adventures in it I didn't have time to relate anymore but this was a it was a period of extraordinary it was very very fascinating I then took up Sufism I had a Sufi teacher in Hyderabad who was the the grandfather of a friend of mine who was a Sufi saint he taught in Germany part of the time and part of the time in India and he and I became great friends he gave me a Sufi mantra was Aoife which I for about a year did the Sufi form of meditation and one thing I learned from him was that it in the Islamic tradition particularly the Sufi tradition pleasure worldly pleasure is considered god-given it wasn't puritanical or ascetic he wore wonderful brocade robes he wore perfume he's sat there running his hands fingers through a bowl of Jasmine blossom he recited exquisite poetry and and this was because God gives these gifts and it was a very big lesson for me because I'd always associated religion with the kind of asceticism but there's not the case in the Sufi world but I didn't want to become a Sufi because in high in India to become a superpower first and foremost and fasting in Ramadan and that kind of thing I thought would be going a bit too far fortunately I was circumcised already so that wasn't an issue but but I thought the arrest would be too much of a stretch and then an original thought crossed my mind what about the Christian tradition and hadn't given us a thought um and I spoke to a Hindu guru and he asked him about this and he said all paths lead to God you come from a Christian family so you should follow a Christian path and I said well I had never thought of that and he said he would but I found it very convincing and the more I thought about it the more sense it made because among my Indian friends the big aim of of doing these forms of meditation is to get free of the wheels of incarnation the world according to the Hindu cosmology is getting steadily worse where in Kali Yuga we're heading towards the end of an age and the everyone's trapped in cycles of rebirth it's not a good thing to be reborn and reincarnate it's a bad thing because you you want to get off there's hopeless world which is headed to destruction so what you're doing in the spiritual life is undergoing a kind of vertical take-off leaving the rest of the world spinning on pointlessly and you're just getting off no I couldn't I just couldn't get that as the principal aim and I realized I actually cared about I was working to help poor farmers it was some of my Indian colleagues at work after work would ask me why do you do this and I said to help poor people who haven't gotten so that is not your business that is their Karma he said as your business is to lead your own life to see achieve liberation but the idea that you should help other people is so deeply ingrained into the Christian a judeo-christian tradition and the Islamic tradition it's not just about individual salvation it's about collective change and I realized I was far more Christian than I had ever imagined I started going to church to the Church of South India the Anglican Church in Secunderabad and after a while I got confirmed by at the age of 34 by an Indian bishop and I felt very happy to be relocated in a Christian tradition but I still felt a huge tension between the Hindu wisdom which I felt was so deep and the Christian tradition which seemed a bit shallow on the on the spirituality side when I discovered this wonderful teacher father bead Griffiths who had a Christian ashram in South India he was an English Benedictine monk who'd lived there for 25 years when I met him in India and in his ashram it combined many aspects of Indian culture with Christian tradition the mass and the morning started with the Gayatri mantra which is that wonderful mantra invoking the Sun so I said to father bead how can you have a Hindu mantra in a Catholic ashram and he said precisely because it's Catholic he said Catholic means universal if it excludes anything it's not Catholic he said it's just a sect and I really liked that approach and I found this extraordinarily broad approach really helpful and he became my main teacher and I wrote my first book in his ashram a new science of life um when I got back to England after long periods in India I had a wonderful time rediscovering the Christian tradition I love the fact engines have pilgrimages Europeans have pilgrimages the Santiago de Compostela is the pilgrimage to Canterbury the pilgrimage to Walsingham in England so I rediscovered sacred places England's full of them great cathedrals churches stone circles pre-christian and Christian and as I started visiting our native places I started going to cathedrals where there's marvellous singing and these beautiful buildings resonating and instead of just seeing it as an aesthetic experience as I had done before I now felt part of it and that was very very moved by us and I felt privileged to be part of this tradition so since then I it's been my practice to go to church on Sundays whenever I can the only place I can it's called his island because Christianity is almost extinct on Cortes island there is one Church left it called his bay but it never functions in the summer when I'm here so it's just those twos endows does kirtan chanting until recently there was a peruvian i well scare oh there's a tibetan buddhist center the Jewish ceremonies happened here bar mitzvahs bat mitzvahs oh yes but if you want to go to a Christian service it's virtually impossible so here is is the one time I can't do this but I normally that's part of my practice wherever I am what I want to do now just said this is my own personal background but what I want to do is look at the key issues as I see them as a result of going through this path and thinking about these things the key difference it seems to me between an atheist and a theist or religious worldview is to do with the nature of consciousness that is the complete key on which it all hinges an atheist world like a theist world is oneness rationally ordered most atheists and materialists they believe in the materialist philosophy of nature nature's governed by universal laws most materialists believe they were all there at the moment of the Big Bang timeless laws principles of reason or order that the whole of the universe is bound together by a universal energy all energy can be interconverted the whole universe has a unified source of energy the whole universe is one unified being that's why it's called a universe everything holds together all of these are things that are part of traditional religious worldviews and in the 17th century they were built into science on the basis of a kind of scientific theology but the big difference is that for an atheist the whole of this universal universe is unconscious its unconscious machinery the world's machine the Earth's and machine animals and plants and machines and we're machines we're lumbering robots and the words of Richard Dawkins our brains are genetically programmed compute so we live in an unconscious world the whole world out there all those galaxies all the stars and completely unconscious it's just unconscious matter and we happen to be conscious for reasons that are obscure but basically we live in an unconscious world whereas for a religious person in any tradition the world is permeated by a greater consciousness than our own to which our end consciousness is our open which we can experience through mystical experiences and which is the background to the very existence our own minds in the first place that there's a greater consciousness in the universe which in different traditions is framed and interpreted in different ways but the reason anyone believes in God at all or any spiritual reality is through it because of experience experiencing the presence of a greater mind or consciousness than our own now how did we get to this position of an atheistic worldview that essentially creates an atheistic universe that's just a machine well I'm just going to go very briefly over the history of this because it's absolutely key to understanding why we're in the situation we're in today and why all of us have been influenced by these different thoughts without necessarily knowing why or how or not even knowing what influences have worked upon us in the 17th century this scientific revolution that started science as we know it was a revolution precisely because it denied what everyone had believed before in the Middle Ages in Christian Europe among Christians and Jews and Muslims the general view was that nature is alive the earth is alive mother earth the whole universe is alive these the anima Mundi the soul of the universe the soul of the world permeates all things animals and plants are truly alive they're organisms with souls the very word animal comes from the latin word anima which means soul so it was completely taken for granted by everybody following the philosophy of Aristotle in st. Thomas Aquinas and the Arab philosophers that we lived in living world the stars were intelligent beings each star had its own angel its own intelligence as part of it so when people looked at the sky they saw a sky full of the presence of God with every star in every planet being a living being with an intelligence of its own the 17th century revolution said no that's not the way it is Matt the universe is made of unconscious matter which is just like a big machine the universe is like a clockwork machine stars are just made of matter like anything else animals and plants are not living beings with their own souls they're machines and human bodies of machines too and this was the mechanistic theory of nature when it was first formulated by Rene Descartes in France who first had this vision in 1619 Descartes made a sharp separation he didn't deny God and angels he said God angels and human spirits are immaterial the world realm of spirit is immaterial totally outside space and time nothing to do with matter in nature nature is made of unconscious matter organized mechanically pushed by forces in accordance with mathematical laws the human body is a machine and the human mind is the only thing in nature which is not mechanical its immaterial spirit its shares its nature with angels and God and interacts with the machinery of the body in a small region of the brain the pineal gland modern theories of Cartesian dualism are similar except the supposed seat of interaction shifted a couple of inches into the cerebral cortex but this theory created a duality between humans and the rest of nature we're conscious the rest of nature's mechanical purely mechanical our bodies are mechanical too it created a split between science and religion religion gets angels God and the human spirit and morality science gets the entire physical universe and and it created the famous split between mind and body the mind and body are two completely separate print suppose that's not what anyone had believed before so this was the dualism which enabled science and religion to go on more or less in harmony with each other and is still the view of many scientists today who are religious they keep them in skom pletely separate compartments in the 19th century there were many people who said two basic principles are too many we don't want matter and spirit there should just be one principle so some people said ok there's only one thing that spirit and that's the philosophy of idealism everything is consciousness matters sort of dumbed-down mind and that was a very popular and influential philosophy in 19th century Europe the other school of thought were materialists they said no there's no such thing as spirit does just matter and that at one stroke got rid of angels and God they just vanish entirely from the world picture it leaves human minds but then human minds are nothing but the activity of the brain and that's the situation we're in today this is the position held by probably 90% of academics 95% of scientists or at least in public this is what they have to pretend to believe most most medical students have to at least pretend to believe this most proposed philosophers in our universities advocate this point of view from this point of view God is nothing but an idea in human minds and as an idea in human minds as nothing but the activity of certain particular regions of the brain their nervous impulses and chemical transmitters but there's no God out there that's a naive childish view that we've science has left far behind that's the Atheist view I used to have and that's the Atheist view I encounter all the time in my my scientific colleagues but the biggest problem with this materialist worldview which is this the subject of my book the science delusion or science set free I take the ten dogmas of the materialists so-called scientific worldview and show that each one of these assumptions if you look at it sound turns out to fall apart they unravel as soon as you stop accepting them in a credulous unquestioning way and the the one that I'd like to address now briefly is the idea that matters unconscious this was an assumption of Descartes because he split matter off from spirit which was immaterial and made the sharp split the materialist said get rid of the spirit and they're just left with unconscious matter now as you'll immediately see this causes a massive problem straightaway because if Mathers unconscious how come that we're conscious if the whole universe is meant to be unconscious there's an enormous problem explaining human consciousness and in philosophy of mind this is called the hard problem because there's no known explanation for it matter should not be conscious according to this theory philosophers of mind over the last 60 or 70 years have tied themselves in knots trying to explain away consciousness one school of thought says well consciousness exists but it's like a meaningless shadow of the activity of the brain it doesn't do anything you don't have free will it doesn't actually do anything it's just to kind of shadow an epiphenomenon of what's happening in your brain another lot say is just another way of talking about the activity of the nervous system and as we learn enough neurophysiology then we'll be able to get rid of what they call folk psychology talking terms of subjectivity and consciousness and everything will just become a matter of describing the neurophysiology of the brain the third school called eliminative materialism as until it's an illusion the problem is of course that if it's an illusion an illusion can only exist in consciousness so it's a kind of self contradictory possession and so these materialist philosophers attack each other because they each disagree with the other ones theories because they're all self contradictory or implausible but go round and round in circles and this is the center of the problem in consciousness studies today for an 20 years ago scientists ignored consciousness when I was studying science at Cambridge it turned out for about 10 minutes in a physiology lecture and that was it you know the brain appears to be conscious philosophers argued about this for centuries they've never got anywhere so we'll leave them to waste their time on pointless arguments we'll get on with explaining how the brain works that was the attitude and of course we've understood a lot about how brains work but it hasn't explained consciousness a very interesting phenomenon occurring right now a few years ago one of the top materialist philosophers of mind Galen Strawson JumpShip and stop being a materialist he adopted a theory called pan psychism instead pan psychism is the idea that there's pan means everywhere psychism means psyche as in mind or soul that there's some kind of mind or soul throughout all nature even an electron has a kind of mind and the idea there is that then consciousness can emerge in human brains because there are more primitive forms of consciousness in matter itself matter is not intrinsically unconscious or mindless it has a kind of mind like aspect interestingly the top u.s. philosopher of mine Thomas Nagel came out last year with a book adopting pan psychism it caused shock and horror in the ranks of academic psychology and and philosophy he was viciously attacked by materialist philosophers of mind his book is called mind and cosmos subtitle why the materialist neo-darwinian conception of nature is almost certainly false and Nagel argues that it's incoherent to suggest that the mind can just emerge from unconscious matter you have to have a pen psychist view you have to have some kind of mind in nature already he also thinks there has to be a kind of purpose in nature already which is one of the biggest heresies in materialism because evolution supposed to be quite purposeless so and recently Christoph Kok ko CH who was a Francis Crick's principal colleague in working on consciousness came out six months ago in favor of pen psychism that was a real surprise to me because he was one of the most hardline materialists that I've ever encountered he's now come out in favor of pen psychism and it's now spreading through the materials as a kind of panic and the materialist establishment as more and more people are defecting to pen psychism now pen psychism isn't a new philosophy it's the philosophy of nature that's often called animism the idea there's a kind of mind or spirit or soul in nature it's found in all traditional cultures in all shamanic cultures it's what the Middle Ages in Europe had Christian animism was the basis of Aristotle and San Thomas and Thomas Aquinas his interpretation of Aristotle it's what the Scientific Revolution rejected but it's coming back again and it's coming back again in a very interesting sophisticated new form the most interesting pan psychist philosopher in the 20th century was Alfred North Whitehead a British philosopher who taught at Harvard and he was a mathematician as well as a philosopher he was the first philosopher to realize the implications of quantum theory quantum theory says that photons and electrons and quantum particles are waves they're not particles just particles not little bits of matter people previously thought that atoms were made little bits of matter like billiard balls quantum theory says no the fundamental reality of physical reality is wave-like and that's the reason for the uncertainty principle in quantum theory you can't pin down a wave to an exact place and time think about a wave on the sea you can't have a wave and this it has time to wave in or space to wave in if you reduce it to an instant it's not a wave and so matters made of waves and their waves take time to wave so what Whitehead realized right at the very beginning of the quantum revolution was this means that time is built into matter previously people thought it was like little billiard balls that just persisted forever old-style materialism is based on a view of matter that sees this as just persisting substance quantum theory reveals matters of process and if it's a process in time each electron each process in time has a past Pole and a future pole there's the future Pole is where it's going past pole is where it's come from it's spread out between future and past what Whitehead argued I think fascinatingly is that the key to understanding the relation of mind and body is not to see them as inside and outside that's the usual metaphor is spatial you know the inner life the outer world the relation of mind and body is the relation in time they mind as the future Pole bodies the past pole the mind is concerned with possibilities our minds are filled with possibilities consciousness is - is a field of possibility and its main function is to choose among possible actions so our minds are filled with virtual futures virtual possibilities as soon as we make a choice and put it into action then it becomes a physical fact but by then it's in the past every one of us decided to come here this evening and it's a measurable fact that we're in this room that there was a time in the past when we were deciding among different things we could have done this evening we could have done something else we could have come here once we decided to come here and did it it becomes a physical fact but before we did it it was something in the future one of other possibilities in the future among which we chose and consciousness is as it were the realm of possibilities virtual futures now even electrons have something like that the Schrodinger wave equation in quantum mechanics is an equation that tells you all the things an electron can do as soon as an electron starts moving the wave equation describes all its possible actions it describes all possible actions that electron could perform and as soon as the electron interacts with something it collides with an outer or something or a photographic film those possibilities collapse down to the one thing that actually happens this is sometimes called the collapse of the wavefunction but as soon as that happens it's in the past and a new set of future possibilities opens up these future possibilities are not physical facts possibilities are not physical they're mental they're to do with possible futures and until they've happened you can't measure them but when they've happened they're not a possibility anymore they're a fact so this idea of whiteheads applies even to electrons as well as to humans and I think is the best way of conceiving pan psychism the role of the mind in any self-organizing system is what gives the system its goals its possibilities and insofar as there's an element of choice then the consciousness if there's any consciousness involved then that's what it's doing choosing among possible actions now most activity including most of our own activity is habitual we don't need to choose most of the time because we follow habits but insofar as we're making choices among possibilities that's where consciousness comes in well this was whiteheads theory and I think it makes the most sense of what's happening the interesting thing is you see that it shows that any self-organizing system would have this mental pole as well as a physical pole most discussion of Penn psychosom concerns electrons it's hard to get excited about the mental life of an electron but the whole thing becomes much more interesting when we think about big self-organizing systems and the one I like thinking about most is the Sun the Sun is a self-organizing system in fact the whole solar system is a self-organizing system now if the Sun has a body which it certainly does what about the mind of the Sun can the Sun think well from this point of view the answer is yes the Sun is very probably conscious now as soon as you say that you realize this is violating one of the most basic taboos of materialism matter is unconscious anyone who thinks the sun's conscious is stupid or childlike every human culture treats the Sun as if it's conscious in some way it's a god or a goddess or there's you know in Hinduism it's Surya the Sun God in Japanese mythology it's a goddess the the Sun is treated as conscious in all cultures and for the Greeks it was Apollo as a God of the Sun and is treated as conscious by children when children draw the Sun they draw it with a smiley face so you see precisely because all of us thought it when we were children we're now told as grown-ups that's so stupid that's just childish thinking primitive people think that way childish people think as we now know the Sun is just a giant hydrogen bomb but actually we don't know know that no one in science has ever discussed it even let alone thought about how you might test it it's simply an assumption matter is unconscious Descartes said so in 1630 matter is unconscious therefore the sun's unconscious that's the basis of this widespread belief the sun's unconscious it's a superstition of materialism to treat it as unconscious I'm not saying I can prove it's conscious but I'm saying it's an open question I can't prove it's conscious but you can't prove it's unconscious so it's an open question and I think it's very likely the son is conscious and if the son is then what about the Stars all of them would light would be like the Sun then what about the galaxy the said the stars in our galaxy the Milky Way that we can see so clearly from here in over Cortes Island and the Milky Way as billions of stars but the Milky Way is like a giant organism and they're like cells and the body of this galaxy what if the whole galaxy is conscious why not I think it very probably is then what if the entire cosmos is conscious why not and then from pen psychism you see we get the idea of perhaps a cosmic consciousness but then is that the same as God or is it pantheism we're then into a kind of almost theological and philosophical discussion what would be the difference between God and pant here and pantheism would be the consciousness of nature as it is the mind of God would be in mind that transcends nature which is within nature and also transcends nature like our own minds within our bodies but they also transcend them our body is here in the present our mind extends into the future through our hopes plans dreams are possible are aspirational to the Past through our memories our minds transcend our physical bodies through time and they transcend them through space as I've talked here in this very large before I think our minds extend far beyond our brains when you see me now your image of me isn't inside your head as scientific dogma says it is it's where it seems to be it's outside your head our minds are extended around us all the time which is why people can feel when they're being stared at and why people can pick up intentions as in telepathy why dogs can pick up intentions as in dogs that know when their owners are coming home picking up their owners intentions from far away so I think our minds transcend our bodies and I think that the mind of the whole cosmos may transcend the cosmos now this is where we get back to traditional ideas about the nature of the divine mind or the nature of God and in all the major traditions there's an astonishing measure of agreement about the nature of God's mind the there's a book that I'm very keen on came out recently by an American theologian called the experience of God being consciousness bliss by David Bentley harp HAART and he shows very clearly that in different traditions there are such similar views in the ad vitac tradition in Hinduism for example the name for the ultimate nature of God's mind is sat-chit-ananda Sat means being means knowledge Ananda means joy or bliss in the Christian tradition the after the nature of God is the Holy Trinity God is not of course an man with a white beard I mean there's a incredibly I mean the kind of God most atheists don't believe in is the kind of God most theists don't believe in either and God is the Holy Trinity according to traditional Christian teaching and the God the Father is the source of all being being and God sustains that doesn't just create the world in the beginning like a kind of Demiurge fashioning something out of clay or an engineer making it out of atoms or something God is the ground of being now the fact anything exists right now is because it's sustained all the time by God's being God is the law gas or consciousness of all things the form of all things the basis of all reason and all knowledge in the universe human and divine and animal and God's nature is bliss or joy the the nature of God's consciousness is to be blissful or joyful and the traditional understanding is that our minds reflections or everything in nature has some aspect of this divine being kind of scaled-down versions fractals scaled-down versions of God's being in all creation and that our minds are capable of linking to the mind of God through direct experience and that's why anyone has ever believed in God it's not a matter of accenting to some ridiculous set of beliefs it's the matter of experience primarily of being in a presence greater than one's own and this can happen in nature it happens to me quite often on quarters Island if I'm sitting quietly in the forest or on the beach I often have a sense of presence a sense of presence much greater sense of being or consciousness than just me sometimes in music sometimes in art sometimes in beautiful church services sometimes in prayers sometimes in meditation many people have a flavor a taste of being in a mind greater than their own I don't know how many people actually I heard perhaps I can try and experiment I've never done before right now and see how many people have had some experience of being in a greater presence than their own because some people are embarrassed by this perhaps if you will close your eyes I'll keep my report back to later if you close your eyes if you've ever had a sense of being in a greater presence or spirit of being well thank you I I can reveal that about 90 to 95 percent of people here put their hands up so we may mean different things by that but you see I think that this is a primary part of our being human there's greater presence within which we live and this has many implications well had been here on quarters Island I'd been reading one of the greatest of the Christian philosophers st. Anselm who was writing around 1100 AD and Saint Anselm is writing about the mind of God the nature of God and he says that the mind of God must contain all qualities every fragrance that you can smell is a fragrance in the mind of God so you smell the fragrance of rose then the smell of roses in the mind of God all conceivable smells are within the mind of God all conceivable qualities God's mind has a mind of infinite possibility so this I've been to what I'm thinking about at the moment is how this applies to biological evolution the normal theory is that something like a flower these beautiful flowers in hollyhock garden they evolved they've been bred of course some of them by plant breeders but flowers have been around for 70 million years long before humans existed on the earth and the flower is a kind of dialogue between the plant and the animal realms they're as Darwin once said that could have been now a flower before there was an eye to see it they're an interaction of animals and plants and they depend on eyes particularly the eyes of insect bees butterflies moths hummingbirds as well but the flowers have evolved with those colors those forms those symmetries those patterns and those smells long before humans appeared and the normal biological theory would be that well a bee in a primitive be random mutation produced and neurotransmitters and nerve cells that led to be too or to have a subjective experience of a particular color or to react as if it had a subjective experience so they probably doesn't and it's just kind of random selection that triggers off advantageous biological responses so if a B does have subjective experience it would have to be sort of invented by you Qin sect you know each kind of insect with it which has qualities but if there's a source of all qualities and the mind of God is more economical theory in my view that animals tune in to these qualities in the mind of God now I hesitate to bring into a public arena a new idea that I've only had a few weeks this is a bit I'll mention it I'll see how this goes over this is an experiment to if the mind of God contains an infinite source of bliss then if we're thinking about the nature of blissful human experiences and I thought why not think in terms of one of the most attractive of all blissful experiences namely the orgasm how would that relate to the mind of God well the the standard theory would say well it's evolved to serve reproductive physiology and because of short circuits and the brain or neurotransmitters or serotonin release or something salamis or the limbic system or wherever well that may be true probably is but it doesn't explain the subjective experience and so that's not explained at all by anything in mechanistic science what if at the moment of orgasms isn't a kind of opening temporary opening of a kind of window into the divine bliss then we're drawn towards the mind of God the mind of God attracts us through not just organisms but any pleasurable or attractive phenomenon ultimately these are connections with the mind of God I think that the interesting thing about this you see is traditional theologies in in the West and elsewhere and and indeed in Greek philosophy God Wetworks in the world according to Aristotle which is pre-christian of course and according to Christian theology and according to other theologies by being attractive God doesn't push from behind like a steam-engine God pulls the world from the future we're attracted we're drawn towards the divine God is the prime mover of the universe in the medieval cosmology not by pushing it but by pulling it the whole universe is striving to get closer to God and the how this reflects itself in human life is the otherwise inexplicable strivings that humans have for truth and beauty and goodness and these have propelled human beings or drawn human beings for a very long time this precedes Christianity of course and interestingly even some of my atheist colleagues the reason they don't believe in the kind of God they've rejected is because they believe in truth and they think truth is the most important goal well I do too but the fact they're so drawn to truth to such a position that they become some of them fanatical atheists they do say because of a devotion to truth it's kind of unconscious devotion to this divine principle some people irresistible drawn to beauty we all are to some degree and say our animals when you hear beautiful birdsong when you look at the way animals are drawn to flowers and to fruits and again one can see that as being drawn by the divine and goodness being drawn towards selfless service to being drawn towards doing the right thing again is a basic human need we find it in all societies for various forms of altruism which go way beyond the needs of just surviving yourself or helping your kids to survive there's a kind of Drive seen and recognized in all human cultures of pull towards goodness now I think these are ways in which the divine mind works in our lives whether we're aware of it or not and of course we can cut ourselves off from this divine mind and we can deny it exists I now see atheism as a terrible self deprivation of atheists I mean in the name of truth that's their devotion to a higher good which is a higher good and by rejecting of totally inadequate image of God a God who just fills in gaps that science can't explain or who starts off the world machine in the first place with the Big Bang or who fine Tunes the laws and constants of nature by rejecting a completely inadequate view of God they end up with the view of the universe that's totally unconscious there has no purpose in it that humans have no purpose does no purpose beyond just living as well as with as much pleasure as you can and and maybe subscribing to some higher ideals because there's always an unconscious drive towards the divine even in atheists and that's what gives them their nobility because many of them are noble and that theirs but it closes down the ways in which we can communicate with the divine where we can be open to God's Spirit which can inspire and guide us and in the end it's bad for your health so studies have shown in the United States that people who have religious belief or practice live longer and are healthier and recover from disease is better than those that don't for white males it's about five years for black males it's about 15 years extension of life now if any pill were known to do that it would be hailed a medical breakthrough and yet these are well-established statistics there's well-established statistics that prayer and meditation help people's health and I think that's because they provide channels or connections with what is the medium in which we live and move and have our being to quote st. Paul the this vision of God is the vision of God that's but the religion that all religions have had is a God in whom we live and move and have our being and who's the source of our conscious life and who's to whom our minds are linked and from whom our minds are derived well this is for me the way in which I pursue this through prayer and meditation in my own life and through experiences of the divine through nature on Cortez Island and through beauty and through love and for each one of us though we all have our own ways of doing this I for myself find practicing the Christian religion a great help it's my tradition I'm not saying it's the only one for everybody but I think for those who've come from Christian backgrounds or from Jewish backgrounds it's the the religion of one's ancestors is the most natural one to follow it's not the only one you can switch and many people have but it it's at least worth considering as a first or second option instead of not considering at all as I did myself for many years and I think then coming back to where we began this is part of what I think is a more general movement going on in the world today of a nathie ism finding God again thank you [Music] [Applause] comments questions yes oh well well I'll tell you what I think I'm I'm not I mean I can't say this is the definitive answer of course it's just what I think I think when we die we continue to be able to dream that we lose the ability to wake up so you see when we're dreaming every one of us every night in our dreams we Mesmer's forget our dreams but we most of us dream four or five times a night and some people remember their dreams better than others but in our dreams we have another body a dream body when I'm dreaming I'm walking around I'm talking to people my physical body is laying asleep in bed but my in my dream I can move around and I can even fly sometimes so in the in the dream what happens depends on my fears my experience my memories etc I think when we die we're in a kind of dream state at least some of the time and the kind of dreams we have the kind of dream state were in depends on the kind of person we are our memories our hopes and our experience I gave me a clue as to how it might go on from just being in a kind of dream is once when I was in the dream I was in a dangerous situation I found myself praying when I pray every day it's part of my normal practice but when I found I could pray in a dream then I realized that if there's an opening to the Spirit that can be an opening from the dream as well as from the waking state and and you see I think that when you look at near-death experiences all those most people have heard about them some people in this room have had them I'm sure typically when people have a near-death experience they find cells floating out of their body looking at it from above then going through a kind of tunnel into the light and feeling a realm of great love and so on and then of course they come back because it's a near-death experience not a death experience well and these happen in different cultures they happen differently in different cultures they in in in the West they usually take that form in India they take a slightly different form Hindus often have near-death experiences where they they float out of their body they go through a tunnel but it handsome that ends they end up in a kind of large office like space with an old man with a white beard sitting behind a desk is Yama the Lord of death and Yama says to his assistants you know he says what's your name so they say their name then assistants get out Ledger's and they look it up and he looks through these Ledger's and then he says so are you Vinod Prakash bean odd K Prakash and he says no i m v-not L Prakash he said and then he says to the assistants you've got the wrong man take him back it's a ghastly bureaucratic blunder and and anyway the so it takes on different forms and I think it may well be that suicide bombers who hope they'll go through and their ace is filled with armed and died dancing girls will serve them dates and so on maybe that's exactly what happens to them and maybe atheists who think it all goes blank will find it all goes blank so this view the dreams there you see fits the facts as far as I can see and it means that it's completely everyone gets what they believe in and expect and you see the traditional is closest to the traditional Catholic doctrine of purgatory where you go into an intermediate realm after death and/or a Bardo the Tibetans would call it and then you can go on beyond that into a realm of more absorption into the bless of God but you can't go straight there most of us would would be sort of dazzled by the light if we went straight there and so there's a period of preparation or first anyway that's my own view for what it's worth yes well decant people had to be careful at that time what they said I mean Galileo had had a rough time with the remya Inquisition it wasn't that rough I mean in the history of science is often poor trees and poor trades that he was tortured in the dungeons of the Inquisition nothing of the kind he had a rather civilized trial the Cardinal Ben Amin who was the prosecutor said to Galileo look there's no problem if you say that the earth goes round the Sun and this is a model a better model or a better mathematical model but you can't say it's the truth because it's just a model and galleries said no it's the truth and the Cardinal said it's fine to say it's a model but Galileo insisted on Saints the truth and he was put under house arrest as a result I'm it was pretty mild punishment and he was an old man anyway at the time but it did make people better did about what they said but Descartes whilst there I think you're perfectly at that time almost all well all the founding fathers of modern science were sincere Christians and I think Descartes was perfectly sincere I don't think he obviously didn't want to cause more trouble for himself than he need but when he had this vision of the world as a great mechanicals on November the 10th 1619 he had it came to him as a vision the mechanistic world view was channeled and he thought it was channeled by the angel of truth this isn't what you normally read in the science textbooks but this is the fact of the matter as he himself reported and he was so impressed by this that he he felt it a genuine why but he felt it had been given to him by the black madonna of Loretto in italy and he went to on a pilgrimage three years later to loretta initially to give thanks to the the shrine of the black madonna now he wouldn't have done that if it was just hypocrisy and stuff i think he was a very sincere in his beliefs and so were most scientists right up until the 19th century and many of them still today Stephen Jay Gould who was of course Jewish I wrote in in his in his days he wrote something about the doctrine of non-overlapping magisteria he said the religion deals with morality God's angels belief that you shouldn't interfere with it science has nothing to say about that and religion should have nothing to say about scientific matters and they should keep the two apart and that was the standard view in the seventeenth eighteenth and most of the nineteenth century even into the 20th century and even today for many scientists many scientists are practicing Christians Jews or Muslims and yet when they're at work they don't challenge the mechanistic world view because that would ruin their career so they go along with it like everybody else but then as soon as they leave the lab they revert to being a Christian Muslim or Jew and an even materialists who see don't really believe it they can't materialism says that the mind is nothing but the activity of the brain and the brain consciousness can do nothing in other words materialism says there's no free will now most materialists as soon as they leave the lab or the seminar room know there is because they have to make decisions and they're in courts of law they're responsible for their actions I mean the whole of our society is based on the assumption that we do have a certain freedom of choice otherwise the legal system breaks down any defense for any crime and anyone could defend themselves against any crime by saying my brain made me it and it's not a valid legal defense and rightly so as I say then even for materialism you see the you can't be a consistent materialist because if you say I'm a materialist you say well there your brain makes you do it and they say well no no I'm a material I believe in science reason and logic and evidence and so but how can you be persuaded if you have no free will so the but so I think that our in practice most people are sort of journalists even materialists because they don't take it seriously outside the lab or in their real private lives so and I think there's various degrees of hypocrisy in modern world the greatest degree of hypocrisy really is among I think many scientists when they're at work they many of them don't believe this materialist worldview but they know that it will damage their career if they say so and so they keep quiet and you know and I think what will change what will really provoke the next scientific revolution is when scientists feel free to come out of the closet I mean because I'm out of the closet myself anyway I have lots of scientists confide in me you know they say no I think there's something like this I think telepathy really happens but I can't you know I think that there's a greater spirit or mind and ours but I can't tell my colleagues because they're all so straight and then another person from the same department would come and say the same thing to me and then another one so I think probably the majority of scientists are not committed materialists but they pretend to be just like in the Soviet Union the majority of people were not committed communists and dialectical materialists but they pretended to be for the purpose of their career and when the Soviet Union collapsed how many people were genuine true believing communists not many there were some but not many I think science is like that at the moment how.what animism well I think in quantum mechanics there are many dimensions the mathematics is multi-dimensional the mathematicians can just invoke new dimensions you know by the Dozen in in dynamical field theory there's hundreds of dimensions in string theory there's ten dimensions in EM Theory there's eleven but we can't imagine these dimensions so the extra dimensions come cheap in modern physics but it doesn't necessarily correspond to what people talk about on the basis of visionary experience for example the way I think of multiple dimensions is again in terms of something like the dream world that each of us has different dreams from each other sometimes we can have dreams that overlap sometimes when people know each other well they share elements of their dreams but are the kinds of dreams that we have here on Cortes Island may be very different from the kinds of dreams that Africans have in a village in Nigeria or that people have in Papua New Guinea or in other parts of the world and in those dream worlds they'd be sometimes they see gods and monsters and spirits that we've never heard of and those you could call different dimensions I think there may be many many many kinds of dream world but I personally don't use that the word dimension because it's a it's a mathematical term that is usually extrapolated way beyond its normal mathematical user usage so I'd prefer to say something like other dream worlds or something like that rather than calling other dimensions and to what degree any of these things correspond with these very mathematical abstract dimensions in physics I don't know probably not very much I mean these mathematical abstract Asians are just that their abstractions that have virtually no imaginative content yes yes yes well I think that in the end everyone's an agnostic because we can't know for certain about things so beyond our comprehension and in in in the Greek Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church the the mainstream kind of theology is called apophatic theology which means negative theology which means that theology can only say what God is not what God not what God is because God's nature is by definition beyond our own minds and an image that some Thomas Aquinas often used is that you know that we we couldn't understand the being of God if we saw it directly because we'd be dazzled by it just like we can't look directly at the full Sun because it dazzles us our sight can't take in that amount of brightness and our minds couldn't take in that amount of truth or knowledge so there's always an element of doubt or uncertainty in what we can formulate in human terms so even official theologies have a strong agnostic element about what is not certain so I think that there's every shade of agnosticism I mean some agnostics atheists who don't want to upset other people and it's kind of it's a kind of euphemism for atheism others are deep agnostics who say this we can never know with our limited human minds the ultimate nature of reality I'm in diagnostic of that kind but I think we can have guesses or hypotheses or so or we can certainly try and so I think there's every shade of agnosticism but I think the only people who have total certainty are fundamentalists of the religious and the scientific type I mean some of my scientific colleagues fundamentalists are people who need total certainty for one reason or another and religious fundamentalists think that they know the truth and everyone else is wrong and scientific fundamentalists think they know the truth and everyone else is wrong I mean some of the militant atheists are basically scientific fundamentalists but almost everybody in between is an agnostic of one degree or another so I think agnosticism is is a normal condition and I would you know I did because it's normally associated with non-committal view about the nature of God as if it's something you believe or you don't believe it I think where that goes wrong is is by treating belief in God as if it's an intellectual thing you sign up to I think it's primarily an experience and I think anyone who's had an experience of a greater presence or being needn't necessarily say that's God you you may may say I've had this experience of something greater than me I don't know what it is I think that's true agnosticism but I think one can inquire further and one can find out a bit more and I think that some of these theological traditions do actually shed light on the nature of divine being in a way that's quite helpful would you like to choose the question Erik so tonight sort of heard you oh that's a very good question to end with and well I can't tell you I mean I wouldn't like to guess about the next 100 or 500 years but I'd like I mean I could guess about the next 10 or 20 if that's good enough and you see I think that this movement that I'm talking about Anna theism this recovering a sense of the divine in the light of all the different religious traditions of the world rather than just saying we go back to the fundamentals of our own faith but in in the modern world it has to occur in the context of atheism because atheism has pointed out all sorts of Salinas's in religion and is again it's a purifying fire and so I think modern religion has to be kind of post atheist religion not pre a theist religion and so first of all does that that influence then does the influence of science and then is the influence of other traditions and what I think it leaves open is a huge range of new questions because you see science has given us a view of the universe vastly greater than any humans have ever had before it wasn't till the 1920s that people realized there were galaxies beyond our own and now we know there are billions of them it wasn't till 1966 that the Big Bang Theory became Orthodox and it became recognized the universes 14 billion years old people before that thought it was millions of years old maybe hundreds of millions but not 14 billion it wasn't until we had microscopes and electron microscopes and math spectrographs and so on that we learned about the inner microscopic nature of matter it wasn't until we had the theory of evolution the fossil records DNA sequencing and so on that we learned about the whole genealogy and descent of animals and plants all of these are new data that were not present when any of the world's great religions were formed and what's happened as those have all been treated as completely secular that the heavens are simply a lot of inanimate matter moving in accordance with physical laws according to physics and cosmology but if we take the view that the the son is conscious the galaxy's conscious these other galaxies are conscious then the question arises what's the relation of our consciousness to them and their consciousness to each other could it be that galaxies interact the consciousness of different galaxies interacts and if so how would that happen well it's not going to happen by sending radio signals at least not very easily because as I've said before I you know there are n galaxies is a hundred million years across light-years across if you send a radio signal from here on as part of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence SETI it's a program that's funded by the US government they're beaming out the prime numbers the the decimal places of Pi and other mathematical formulae on the grounds that other civilizations will recognize and will send messages back but if it gets to the message gets the other side of our own galaxy to take a hundred million years for them to get the message and even if they reply by return of post it take a hundred million years to get the you get their reply as two hundred million years who's going to remember the question and so if we're talking about communication between galaxies over billions of light years then this would be much too slow to have any conscious connection within the universe God and human consciousness are all about consciousness and what makes the new world view the emerging scientific world view different from the the mechanistic materialist one is that that excludes consciousness and a worldview that admits it then has a whole range of new questions what purpose does our consciousness have in the entire universe if it's just radio transmission we have to rely on we can't even communicate effectively even with in neighboring with neighboring stars let alone other galaxies but if minds can interact at a distance instantaneously or far faster than the speed of light then one of the new questions for discussion would be intergalactic telepathy and now this isn't on the scientific map right now it's not on the theological map either and you see I think that the science has given us a world vast vision of her a world microscopic and macroscopic but without meaning religion gives us a world full of meaning but without much relation to this scientific worldview and the real challenge and I think the most exciting one in the next 10 or 20 years is bringing these together forming a new and anna theism that occurs in the light of science and cosmology which will take everyone into territory they've never been before it's not going to be a matter of turning back the clock to fundamentalisms it's a matter of going forward to the understanding of the nature of the mind based on psychology brain studies but also the great insights that come from the Tibetan traditions of meditation and so on the people who and Hindu traditions of meditation where they've gone so deeply into the nature of the mind they my favorite text in the Hindu scriptures is the caner and Penny shed where it says about the nature of God says not that which the eye can see but that whereby the eye can see it know that alone to be Brahma the Lord and not what people here adore it's in other words what it sings not what we can see but the ability to see or the ability to hear that is where we share in the nature of God and the the nature of consciousness itself and if that is distributed throughout the entire universe and throughout all the beings and self-organizing forms within the universe including galaxies which may have minds far greater than ours then how does all this relate to religious traditions about God and all the other intelligences in nature in the Jewish Christian and Islamic tradition there are innumerable angels which are spiritual beings or intelligences that pervade the whole of nature in the Indian tradition they're called Davos in other traditions they're called spirits there it's a it's not just between us and God and just the us on earth and and God and the rest of the universe is irrelevant that's the normal approach that people have it's something vastly greater and richer and that exploration has barely begun [Music]

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Keywords: Rupert Sheldrake on Rediscovering God, Rupert Sheldrake em redescobrir deus, Rupert Sheldrake op het herontdekken van God, Rupert Sheldrake en redescubrir a Dios, Rupert Sheldrake sur Redécouvrir Dieu, Rupert Sheldrake bei der Wiederentdeckung von Gott, Руперт Шелдрейк о повторном открытии Бога, Rupert Sheldrake sulla riscoperta di Dio, Rupert Sheldrake o znovuobjevení Boha, Rupert Sheldrake az Isten újrafelfedezésére

Id: TKvcCVhmrdU

Length: 84min 6sec (5046 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 28 2017