Angels: A talk with Father Bede Griffiths

we want to suggest to you that god is present everywhere through his angels here among us all at this moment the angels are present and rupert in particular we'll try to suggest to you from a scientific point of view how we can conceive of the angels of present in the whole creation in the stars the sun the whole world around us so that is the theme of our speak talking tonight until the 17th century it was taken for granted in almost all human cultures all over the world that we lived in a living world and that world was not only alive but full of intelligences not only in the earth but in the sky since the 17th century we've had a scientific view of the world as a mechanical universe a machinery which contains no life spirit or intelligence simply proceeding in an inanimate soulless way in accordance with physical laws this machine was originally thought to be made by god now conceived of as the god of the world machine but containing no intelligence the angels were drained out of the cosmos and the soul was taken out of the cosmos and it was left as a kind of mechanical machine which had god to start it off and even then later on for many scientists god became an unnecessary hypothesis the god of the world machine was dissolved away simply leaving the machinery previously the heavens were conceived of as alive and god was present in the heavens as we say our father who art in heaven um however since the 17th century god has been removed from the sky in most people's thinking and the heavens have been secularized they've become the domain of physical astronomy and just simply the matter and physical stuff of the universe and the old sense of the relation of heaven and earth is still maintained in astrology but the trouble is that most astrologers never look at the sky it's all done from books in recent years though we're coming to have a new sense of the life of nature and this is the theme of my book called the rebirth of nature we're recovering a sense of the universe as a living organism and in many ways the old sense of the life of nature is returning not only through a rising awareness of the environment and through the green movement but also through science itself the big bang theory which came in in the 1960s gives us a picture of the universe that began very small the big bang is rather like the cracking of the cosmic egg and since then the cosmos has been growing and as it grows new forms and structures have appeared within it this gives us a picture of the universe which is far more like a developing organism than a machine the old idea that matter was just inert stuff has been transcended through modern physics as we now recognize that atoms are structures of activity they're more like processes than things the old idea that the whole cosmos is completely determined that what happens is fixed rigidly fixed by what has happened before and by the laws of nature this has given way to a sense of indeterminism through quantum theory and more recently through chaos theory to a recognition that there's a spontaneity a freedom in the whole of nature that's been denied for more than 300 years the old idea that nature is created but not creative this idea from the 17th century create meant that god created nature but nature had no creativity in herself however with darwin's theory of evolution we recovered a sense of the creativity of nature in the biological realm and now with the cosmic evolution theory the cosmic the evolutionary cosmology we see that creativity is inherent in all of nature the whole of nature is in a process of creative evolution the old idea that nature was governed by eternal fixed laws is thrown into question by the evolutionary cosmology because if nature evolves why shouldn't the laws of nature evolve as well just as human laws evolve and i've suggested the hypothesis that there's an inherent memory in nature and that what we think of as the laws of nature may be more like habits that develop within the developing cosmos all in all these ways we are getting a new sense of the life of nature the machinery is coming to life again and another well-known way in which this is happening is through the gaia hypothesis the recognition that we live on a living earth that the earth itself is a living organism so many people have now recovered a sense of the life of the earth but still for most people the heavens are regarded as dead and inanimate the heavens have not yet been re-sacralized first of all one can make a very obvious point that if god is everywhere then 99.999 of god must be in the sky rather than in the earth secondly through this sense of the recovery of the life of nature we can have the sense of the entire cosmos as a living organism the sky and everything in it is in some sense alive and then i think it's possible to recover a sense of the life of the sun and the stars the sun we now know from physical studies of the sun is an extremely dynamic system it is a complex arena of electromagnetic activity every 11 years the magnetic poles of the sun reverse the north magnetic pole goes to the south and the south to the north and this 11 year cycle is associated with the sunspot cycles the whole surface of the sun is a complex system of changing electromagnetic fields changing turbulent patterns of electromagnetism are crossing the sun all the time now most of us are quite prepared to think that our own mental activity has an interface with our brain through the electromagnetic fields which sweep over the surface of our brain the electromagnetic fields and changes within them seem to be the interface between mind and the physical brain if as conventional science asserts the mind interfaces with the physical brain through the electromagnetic fields what about the idea that the complex pattern of electromagnetic fields in the sun make the sun like a gigantic brain and that these changing fields are the way in which the mental life of the sun can interface with its physical activity i discussed this idea recently with a friend of mine who works in a big astronomical center in the united states and he said that he had been thinking like this himself and he'd asked one of his colleagues one of the leading solar physicists if he too had ever conceived that the sun might be thinking his friend said yes that is what i think about the sun but i will never say it in public at any rate to me it's quite conceivable that the sun has a kind of mind associated with the activity of the body of the sun and if that is true of the sun then it may be true of the stars as well billions and billions of stars may have a kind of consciousness or intelligence associated with them and this is what most traditional civilizations have believed they have believed that each planet has a special kind of life or intelligence associated with it we still call the planets by the name of the old gods and goddesses venus mars mercury and so on and it's also been believed that the stars have an intelligence a special life intelligence or consciousness associated with them and i think that in the christian tradition um many of these intelligences were associated uh with the angels and i now want to ask father bead uh what he thinks about this idea of the life of the heavens and the angels and their presence in the sky rufus has shown you how science today is recovering the sense of the earth as a living organism and now extending that to the sun and the stars that there is some kind of intelligence at work in the sun and the stars now as he indicated that is the traditional belief of the ancient cultures of the world and don't let us forget that the 17th century in europe was a break with the whole human tradition of wisdom in china in india in greece in the whole civilized world and in that world they all believed that the stars were intelligences uh the belief of aristotle who spoke for the greek world whilst the stars themselves where intelligence is and that came down through the arabian philosophers the muslim philosophers and through them it came to some thomas aquinas and the catholic theologians of the middle ages and consequently in the theology of saint thomas he does not say that the star the a are angels but he does say that the angels have uh act through the stars the angels are the powers the intelligences which work through the stars the sun the moon the planets and all this earth so in that cosmology there is an intelligence at work throughout the whole of nature and i would like to suggest that in modern physics we say this world is a field of energies the whole physical world is a field of energies and though that field of energies is organized and structured in a mathematical form and therefore there is intelligence in matter from the beginning the atoms have formed so many protons and electrons in a mathematical order and their scientists today see mathematical structure throughout the whole physical universe so we're learning that matter is energy and this energy is organized by an intelligence and now in the ancient tradition it was believed that this energy and this intelligence all had their source in a supreme being who was both fully intelligent and full energy and if you like to think of the christian trinity in those terms the father is the source of all the origin for which everything comes you and i and the whole creation and the sun is the intelligence of the father the word of the father by which she expresses himself so the godhead expresses itself through an intelligence and that intelligence embraces the whole creation and then the godhead expresses itself in the word and communicates itself in the spirit the spirit is the energy the uncreated energy which produces all the energy of the stars and the physical universe so that is the conception of the divine being let us call it from the ancient tradition and don't forget we speak of angels they speak of gods in india where i come from we habitually think of the gods as cosmic forces there is one supreme reality the brahman and that is all the energy and the intelligence of the universe is contained in the brahmana and the brahman manifests itself in human beings in the outman the inner self the spirit and each one of us [Laughter] so now we're suggesting that in india we have this concept of the brahman the source of all energy and intelligence in the universe manifesting in the human being as the outman where the energy and the intelligence of the divine enters into each one of us and then the gods of hinduism are the cosmic powers the one supreme power and intelligence manifest in a multitude of particular powers and intelligences and all the hindu gods viktor shiva vishnu the great gods are manifestations of this divine power and intelligence and for many millions in india today they still have a great meaning you see and we must recognize that millions of people today still have that sense that the gods are living realities in their lives you see now in our christian tradition i suggest the angels take the place of the gods for us the angels are created by god but they are intelligences which reflect the intelligence of god so this intelligence uh these these gods as i say are these powers and intelligences and in our tradition the angels of powers and intelligences which derive from depend on the supreme power the supreme intelligence the wisdom the word of god and manifest that power and that intelligence through the material universe so when we look on the stars and the sun we're looking on paths which derive from the supreme power and are guided by the supreme intelligence so their intelligence is in the stars the problem has been that in our christian tradition we felt that the ancient people were worshiping the sun the moon and the stars and the intelligences in them the gods and the christian tradition rejected any worship of the of the gods that this cosmic forces or of the angels you see but today we don't need to worship we recognize that all these powers and intelligence come from the supreme power and the supreme intelligence we are now absolutely free to believe as our fathers believed that uh god the supreme intelligence orders the world through these powers and intelligences which we call angels and they are working through the sun the stars the galaxies but also beyond all that they work through the planets and as rupert suggested each planet each star the sun itself a particular manifestation of this powering intelligence of the godhead so when encountering god you see in the sun the moon and the stars and then beyond that when we come down to the earth the angels the powers and intelligences are present in the structure of the earth the structure of atoms of molecules of living beings in the structure of our human body it's all a work of power and intelligence you see both at work structuring our bodies building up the whole organism and these are angelic powers we can call and receive powers and intelligence from god but working through the creation and it comes eventually of course to the idea of the guardian angel each one of us is being guided directed by an intelligence and a power from above so i think we're free today again to realize that the sun the moon the stars the earth the plants the animals human beings are all manifestations of a divine power and a divine intelligence and that they are ordered by the angels and it's not superstition any longer to believe that angels are in the earth working for its creative powers in the living beings in plants and animals and all ancient people had that said plants and animals are not just dead things outside us you see their living presences their angels angelic paths are present in the plants the trees the the animals and of course in every human being so we're free now to see the presence of the angels in the whole physical creation in the whole stellar universe and in our own human daily life as far as rupert to take over and say a little about the hierarchy of animals well i won't speak about the hierarchy of angels as such i'll speak about the organization of nature the way in which nature is organized is hierarchical or some people prefer the word hierarchical since the word hierarchy is out of fashion at any rate the cosmos is not a democracy [Laughter] the structure of nature is one of nested levels within levels each organism has we have tissues cells in tissues in organs in organisms and these organisms are in societies there's a whole series of levels each including the levels below it then societies are within ecosystems ecosystems are within the whole system of gaia gaia is part of a solar system which is like a great organism that solar system is part of the galaxy and which galaxies are like enormous organisms the galaxy has a definite structure and then the galaxies are organized in clusters of galaxies so there's a whole series of levels of organization each including the level below so if we think of intelligence as being associated with these different levels then we would arrive at the idea of a hierarchy of intelligence a hierarchy of organization within the cosmos and i wonder if that corresponds in any way to the traditional doctrine of different levels of intelligence in nature this scientific idea of these different levels of organization from the elementary level to the galaxies and the clusters had a very interesting correspondence in the view of the celestial hierarchy uh there's a great teacher at the early church that who took the name dionysius theory opera guide he genuinely believed to have been a syrian monk in the sixth century who was trained in neoplatonism and he had a wonderful vision or view of a hierarchy of angels of degrees of intelligence and by the way he thought the human mind was the lowest level of intelligence in the universe [Laughter] the human intelligence is at a very low level because we can only work through the matter of the body and the senses we're always confined by that but an angel is a pure intelligence which is not conditioned by a body and therefore they have a higher intelligence we have but the lowest level of angels are those concerned with human affairs with this material world and they constitute the ordinary presence of the angels among us and then above them are the archangels and they are concerned with higher organizations particularly with nations they believe that every nation had its its uh archangel isn't son michael the archangel of germany i'm not sure all right they're above the archangels are the powers and principalities and they are considered awfulness governing the higher levels beyond the nations beyond humanity the spheres of the stars and the universe as a whole and gradually will come up to the highest level the seraphim and the cherubim and the set of him of pure intelligence nearest to god they reflect the divine intelligence more perfectly than any other and um the cherubim are the angels of love and don't forget that the intelligence when it acts acts through love love is the activity of an intelligence it's the way of an intelligence communicates itself is love love is self-communication of an intelligent being and so you have the seraphim or the angels of pure intelligence and the cherubim of the angels of love and so you finally come to the supreme who is absolute being absolute intelligence and absolute love and that is the hierarchy of the ancient tradition it's a wonderful vision but we have to remember that there are also the fallen angels and um so i wanted to um raise the subject of the fall of the angels and these destructive powers in the angelic order the best picture i know of the fallen angels comes in one of the greatest poems in the english language namely milton's paradise lost and in that book he tells the story of the fall of the angels and then he gives a description of each one of the fallen angels for example one of them is mammon the angel of commercial greed this is milton's description of mammon even in heaven his looks and thoughts were always downward bent admiring more the riches of heaven's pavement trodden gold than ought divine or wholly else enjoyed in vision beatific by him first men also and by his suggestion taught ransacked the center and with impeached hands rifled the bowels of their mother earth for treasures better hid well these fallen angels can be understood in many different ways the way that comes most naturally to modern people is the method of psychological reductionism in other words to see all these celestial powers including god and the angels as as products or maybe archetypes in the human mind but if we can take seriously the idea of non-human intelligences in the cosmos do we have to take seriously the idea of destructive forces that didn't simply come into being with the development of human consciousness and the fall of human consciousness into some state of division but forces that are present not just in the earth but maybe active in the entire cosmos and i would like to ask father beed how he thinks about these fallen angels yes i think we have to take seriously the doctrine of the fall of man we were created to be guided by the intelligence of god with the angels intelligences working on us and to be moved by the love of god and that intelligence and love would work through the body through our whole physical organism and the world of nature but it all depended on our being open always to the guidance of the intelligence and the love from above and the fall of man is when we fall from that intelligence and that love into our separated self our ego which is our psychological consciousness and our present state which we all experience we live in that psychological consciousness centered on the ego and not on the supreme consciousness from which our life actually comes so as a result of our separation from the divine intelligence and love we center on the ego and then we're exposed to these destructive powers of the angels of the fallen angels and they are positive forces in the unconscious i think the jungian idea of archetypes is meaningful here the angels are realities beyond the human psyche but they act on the human psyche on the unconscious and all these destructive forces in the unconscious are the the negative forces of fallen angels acting on the human psyche and driving us in all these ways of destruction and violence and hatred and confusion which we experience today and it is this fall of man this falling away from the divine intelligence and love into this ego consciousness which is the cause of all the conflict and violence and eventually of death and destruction in the world and the the need we have today is to recognize that we are exposed to these demonic forces in the unconscious they're working in all of us and when we see the violence in wherever you like in yugoslavia or wherever your these forces are at work in human nature and they are driving us through the unconscious so these are the negative forces which are real powers in the court's mass working through the human psyche and [Music] they lead to this dualism that we feel ourselves separated from god separated from one another separated from the universe and the whole of what rupert is talking about this separation of spirit and matter conscious and unconscious is due to this fallen state in which we all live in which we were born we're born into this state of dualism and we're trying to recover from it although talking about the angels may seem very removed from ordinary experience there's a very remarkable fact revealed by surveys of religious experience carried out in europe and in america which is that something like 20 or 30 percent of the people who are questioned in these random samples claim to have seen or in some way encountered angelic beings so there's an extraordinary degree even in modern urban industrial civilization of um relation with angels that ordinary people feel and i don't know that these cover many different kinds of angelic power no doubt we have to distinguish between the psychic and the spiritual and this is fundamental the angels of the gods are spiritual beings intelligences and powers and but they work in and through the human psyche and in our human psyche they take the form of visions locutions all kind of parapsychological phenomena these are all effects of spiritual beings acting on the human psyche and so these visions of angels and i think it applies the visions of our lady at mitochondria wherever you are they come through the human psyche they may be a genuine spiritual power present but it always comes through a human psyche which tends to distort it or misinterpret it in some way so we should always be careful how we accept these visions and revelations they may have a genuine source but they're nearly all they always come through a human psyche and have a psychological character when we think about the cosmic evolutionary process many people think that if it has any purpose at all that purpose is something to do with the evolution of consciousness in human beings and perhaps in a wider sense of a wider evolution of consciousness if we see the purpose of evolution as the development of human consciousness on earth this seems a very provincial matter why do we need billions of galaxies just to get evolution of human consciousness on earth to produce the highest forms of human science art and religion seems a very narrow and limited thing it's in fact been a belief of people throughout the ages that there are many other forms of intelligence in the cosmos with which we can communicate and that belief is still alive and well today it was believed that the stars had influences and that they could be contacted in the 16th century in england john d for example practiced a form of star magic where he tried to communicate with the intelligences of particular stars this belief that there are other forms of life other forms of intelligence in the universe exists in the modern world in several forms one is in a scientific manner there's a search for extraterrestrial intelligence where people are directing radio telescopes at the sky hoping to find broadcasts from other civilizations which would include the numerical value of the physical constant pi for example this is a serious effort funded by the american government and others that's one form the scientific conception of life elsewhere then there's the science fiction conception science fiction is full of stories about beings in other planets other kinds of intelligence in space so these ideas of other forms of life and intelligence are still very much alive and well today so i want to conclude by asking father beed how he sees the evolution of consciousness taya deshaun spoke about the omega point some coming together of everything did he mean some formation of cosmic consciousness involving a linking of human consciousness with other forms of intelligence elsewhere in the universe or was he referring simply to something happening in a very limited way here on earth and if we think about the new creation as involving some transformation throughout the whole cosmos then how can we conceive this without some sense of an interconnection of consciousness between our life here and the intelligences of the stars and and the galaxies and indeed of the whole cosmos yes this idea of a new creation of a transformation of the universe is fundamental in the new testament uh saint paul speaks with the whole creation groaning in travail waiting for the revelation of the sons of god the whole creation physical universe groaning and travel waiting for the transformation of the human mind and being which is a revelation of the sons of god and our human nature is to undergo this transformation both the body and the soul are to be transformed by the power of the spirit taking possession of the whole person this is exactly what happened in the resurrection of jesus the body and soul of jesus were taken up into the life of the spirit and transformed by the spirit so it become a total spiritual being and that is our human destiny every one of us is destined for the body and the soul to be transfigured by the spirit and to become a spiritual body soul if you like a spiritual being and that is the transformation of humanity but the body and soul cannot be transformed without the universe to which they belong and so in the christian tradition it's equally clear that the transformation of humanity involves the transformation of the universe and in the letter of the ephesians it is said it was the plan of god in the fullness of time to bring all things to a head in him in christ things in heaven and things on earth the whole creation renewed restored and made spiritual in christ we could remind ourselves that the bible begins with the words in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth and it ends in the apocalypse the revelation of sir john i saw a new heaven and a new earth so that is the christian expectation the human being body and soul to be transformed by the spirit of god and with the human being the physical universe the earth the planets the stars the sun the galaxies all undergo this spiritual transformation no longer subject to the threatened laws of space and time but transfigured by the divine intelligence and power and the angelic forces working through the whole creation it's almost time as a last word i would just like to say this may seem a little remote to most of us to think these bodies this universe being transformed but there's a great deal of evidence you know especially in india and tibet that this does actually take place there are people whose bodies have been transformed in this way the very famous holy man in south india where we live ramalinga swamigal who entered into this silent state and disappeared he was no longer found and in tibet there are quite strong evidence rupert himself has contacted tibetan to speak of it of people who have gone into a deep state of meditation transcended their normal human state entered into a supreme consciousness and their body has simply disagreed disintegrated only the nails from the hair remain everything else is upon the body of light so these things do happen and we can all know and believe that in the resurrection of jesus that is exactly what did happen and that is our destiny so may we end by praying that may all of us begin to experience the presence of the angels in our lives the guardian angels of each one the god angels in our country our people in the nations in the in the earth in the stars in the whole creation as real presences in our lives which can change us and through which we can influence the world around us okay

Channel: Rupert Sheldrake

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Length: 38min 50sec (2330 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 29 2020