My name is Monk Rowe and we are in Toronto
at the IAJE convention filming for the Jazz Archive at Hamilton. I'm pleased to have Ralph Humphrey with me
today. Our viewers won't know it but I just had the
pleasure of attending a little clinic you did. RH: You were there, okay. MR: Yeah. And it's got to be a challenge to try to get
a fairly complex message across, to me it was anyway, to a room that size, kind of going
way back in the room. But I think people gained something from it. RH: I hope so. I was thinking about that. As I was presenting it I was thinking all
right, who is getting any of this, and am I going too fast, there's too much information,
do I leave anything out? MR: Yeah. In fifty minutes. RH: It is difficult. And when I present a subject I usually present
it over a period of time rather than squash it into a fifty minute slot. MR: I had this little picture in my head of
trying to do an exercise, maybe with your hands or something that would make you grasp
some of those odd meters. Do you ever do that with early students? RH: Yeah I do that a lot with early students. MR: Like what kind of things might you do? RH: Well you know it's the application can
take a number of different approaches but if you're just talking about like a hand to
hand pattern, which is where most guys start, I like to start with creating the bass structure
and then relating different ideas to that bass. And what happens at the same time is we're
learning about rhythm, we're learning about technique, we're learning about motion, learning
about how the body feels when you do something, learning about balance. So there are so many things that are being
learned at the same time that you're doing one thing. I try to show them, reveal to them, all these
different levels of learning that's going on. Because they may not be aware of it. To them it's just hand to hand. So everything that I do regarding technique
usually has some sort of underlying rhythmic element to it that is also being learned,
whether it's I mean a subtle way or an obvious way. MR: Sometimes you run across people who - usually
it will be an adult that will say this - that aaw I have no rhythm. Have you ever dealt with that? RH: Oh yeah. Sure. And there are a lot of people who have a poor
understanding of rhythm and feel like a klutz. I mean they are probably much better at it
than they think they are but it's so intimidating that they just don't even approach it. My father for example, I mean he says yeah
I played the musical instrument, I played the radio. You know what I mean? He just doesn't want to even get near it because
he would feel intimidated, but even thinking that he had any skill whatsoever, rhythmically. MR: It's interesting. So you didn't get your musical genes from
him. RH: No I got it from my mother. MR: Okay. How did that work. You said you were born in Berkeley but you
didn't live there? RH: It was just the hospital was in Berkeley. I lived nearby in a place called Richmond,
so the Bay Area, I grew up in the Bay Area of California. MR: And your mother was musical? RH: She was a pianist. She could have had perhaps a professional
career when she was younger but circumstances didn't allow it. But she carried on as a pianist and played
the classics and then ended up accompanying me when I was playing clarinet, doing the
festivals and things like that. MR: Oh so you are a clarinet player? RH: I was a clarinet player first, yeah. Learned my music on the clarinet. Notes and melodies are really important. MR: Yes. That helps shape the way you hear music. RH: I think it has a lot to do with it, I
really do. I encourage all my students to take some melodic
instrument. I think the ideal instrument is the piano,
for just about anybody. MR: When was it that you thought hmm, maybe
there's a career in music for me? RH: Well in high school I was definitely in
love with playing the drums and playing every kind of music I could and playing outside
and doing little gigs and having just a great time. But I didn't really know what kind of a career
I could have. I went to college, continued studying, became
a music major, continually being turned on by musicians in the Bay Area, by music I was
hearing, by records that I was listening to, by great instructors. And it got me more involved with wanting to
play music as a career but I really didn't know how I was going to do it. So I was playing it safe and I was going for
a teacher's credential so I was getting my five years and doing the whole thing. And it did keep me out of going to Vietnam,
because it was that time. MR: You had a student deferment. RH: A student deferment and then it was a
marriage deferment and then it was getting a child deferment. So yes. But you had to stay in school and take a full
load for the entire time otherwise you were- MR: You know when you look back on that now,
because I was in on that a little bit later but I recall watching the draft where they
are picking out the numbers. Did you -
RH: That was before the lottery. So at that time they were drafting and if
you were say out of school and draft age and healthy, they wanted you. It wasn't necessarily a conscious thing of
avoiding the draft it was just that I knew that school was important and that this was
certainly one way that I could defer any service. So staying in school, which was very important
to me, I did so and luckily I was able to get to a point where it was past the point
where they were drafting. MR: Right. When you look back on that time do you think
the student deferment was a fair thing? RH: Fair for who? MR: Yeah. Well the people that let's say couldn't afford
to be in college. RH: College was cheap. MR: They probably didn't think it was fair. RH: College was very cheap. I put myself through college just by playing
gigs and whatnot. It's so different than nowadays. I mean really when you think about it, the
state college was- MR: I know. RH: I got great instruction, I didn't have
to leave my neighborhood to get great instruction. MR: Yeah we thought it was a big deal to take
out a loan for two thousand dollars. RH: Oh I know, exactly. So I think everybody has the benefit if they
wanted, to go to school, to get a higher education. MR: Okay. Were you particularly into jazz music during
this time, during your college career? RH: Yeah, I was. MR: Listening to big bands? RH: Listening to big bands, playing in big
bands, playing in small groups, playing in Dixieland bands, playing in casuals bands,
doing a lot of reading, studying, everything you have to study in college if you're going
to be a music major. Learning from some incredible people. I remember a composition teacher that was
just phenomenal. I remember a band director who was also very
phenomenal and then the jazz band director at the junior college I went to, which was
the College of San Mateo, he had the casual band and I played with players who were better
than me so it just brought my level right up. MR: Man you learn a lot on those kind of gigs,
don't you? RH: Oh God. The experience, there's nothing that beats
on the job experience. I learned so much, yeah. MR: Did you ever have a circumstance where
the band leader would get a request and turn to the band and, "Now we're going to do a
-" what a cha-cha or something even more complex, and it's like how do you do that? RH: I guess I must have known about the basic
stuff. You know like a basic rumba, a basic Cha-cha. I wouldn't call myself very sophisticated
in Latin music at that time anyhow, but I certainly knew a lot of tunes, knew how to
read, so if I didn't know the song at least I could read it and be okay. I was a snob when it came to only wanting
to play jazz because rock was not turning me on, to play it. But ultimately I had to face that, because
times were changing and if I wanted to maintain a career as a drummer, you had to just kind
of look at everything. And I did get into it and then of course when
I joined Don Ellis' band he was playing music that was-
MR: I guess. RH: Huge. MR: I'm sure I heard you guys in the - I think
it was in Buffalo, probably around in 1971 or so. RH: Are you from Buffalo? MR: No but I went to school in Fredonia which
is just south of there. RH: Oh yeah, we played through there. MR: Yeah and I remember driving up, us music
guys, just on purpose because these guys were going to be there. And I think they had the little - I don't
know if they had the strings, but they had this little like woodwind group. RH: Right. MR: And how did you handle that stuff that
was in this outlandish - RH: Well it's a curious thing. I guess - well I had been turned on to Don's
music maybe two or three months before I had the chance to meet him. Because our stage band director at San Jose
State said guys check this out, so he brought in I think "Live at Monterey" which was Don's
first record. And we sat there and we listened to it and
all of our jaws dropped because we just never heard anything like it, ever, anywhere. And all I knew up to that point was a little
bit of Dave Brubeck and that was it for as far as odd meters are concerned. And the classical music, where it came up
in classical music. But that was a whole different thing. This was creating a feel, you know, and having
the ability to play not only jazz but sort of rock and straight eighth note stuff and
Latin and so it encompassed a lot of different things. And so I immediately listened to the record,
probably over and over again, because I loved everything about it. It was so new. And then lo and behold Don comes to our school
to do a concert with the band. So this is all because of the instructor. And he was kind of a zany guy anyhow so he
liked all the new stuff. He'd sometimes have us rehearse with all the
lights off, and say okay let's just play anything you want to play. So we were experimenting. So when Don came along it was perfect. And for me I was just trying to feel my way
through it and read the charts. I didn't know where it was coming from or
any of the concepts of the rhythms. That came later. That actually came after I joined the band. But the ability to pick up on it and sort
of quote unquote fake my way through, you know by listening to what the other drummer
did and listening to the music and the feel of it, I guess I did a good enough job where
he called me up and said do you want to come down and audition for the band - coming down
meant Los Angeles. And I was a senior at San Jose State at the
time so as green as I thought I was, I went ahead and went down for the audition. And obviously it changed my whole life by
doing that. MR: There was more than one drummer, wasn't
there, at the time? RH: Yeah, there were. When I first saw the band it was two drum
sets and percussion. And the main drummer, his name was Steve Bohanon,
and he died at age 21 tragically in a car accident. But he was going to leave the band anyhow
to join the service. And Don needed a replacement for him, and
so he was looking, and apparently didn't come up with anybody in Los Angeles that he was
satisfied with. And that's what blew my mind. I was thinking, in all of Los Angeles you're
calling me? You know? So I mean he must have heard something, probably
a potential. Because I certainly didn't have the ingredients
of knowing what that was. But I had a propensity toward it. And I was definitely interested in it. MR: Well explain to me if you would, the time
signatures with the fractions. RH: Okay. Well there's one in particular, it's called
three and two-thirds over four. So if you think of the number three and two-thirds
of a three, so three threes and two-thirds of a three is eleven. So really it's another way of expressing eleven
eight. MR: Eleven eight. Okay. RH: A little play on-
MR: Yeah. Gives it a certain panache. RH: It does. Yeah, it does. MR: What kind of money were you making in
that band? RH: Not enough. MR: Yeah. RH: Nobody was. MR: I can imagine it was a struggle. RH: Yeah. I remember having to negotiate with Don and
trying to get as much as I could, but I mean during those times you were lucky to have
the opportunity of going on the road and playing with the band. There was a lot going on but none of the bands
were making much money because the expenses were amazing for bringing a whole band like
that on the road. There was at least 21 players in the band
plus one or two roadies and then this one and that one and the band manager. It was tough. MR: Did you feel that the band got captured
well on the recordings? RH: No. I don't. I always wish that we had recorded some of
our better nights. Because what the band did on those better
nights was scary. And the albums never really did capture that. The other thing too is the sound of the albums
never was right. Although I do know that any reissues that
are coming out now, and I know the last one was "Live in Three and Two-Thirds Four," it
sounds much better than the original. And I'm hearing things that I never heard
before in the music. And that was before I got on the band actually. It was an album or two before I got on the
band. MR: Don was - I guess you could call him an
extrovert? RH: Yeah I suppose so. I mean off the bandstand he was very nice
and casual and seemed laid back, but I think he had this - he had a drive certainly and
this underlying sort of vibration that kept him going and I think probably contributed
to his early death. I really do. MR: Well you got into the studio scene in
Los Angeles? RH: Yeah. MR: What's that work like? RH: Now or then? MR: Well when you were doing it. RH: Yeah. I kind of always felt at some point that I
would want to do that because I felt I had all the right tools for it. My reading was really good, I felt like I
had a familiarity with all the styles, I was responsible for all the things that one needs
to be responsible for in that position- MR: Which are?
RH: Well you know taking command, being able to follow the click, being able to take the
right instruction, follow a conductor, take suggestions without fighting back, so being
diplomatic about the situation because it's not your gig it's somebody else's gig and
you're being privileged to be there doing the work and so you try to do the best job
that you know how. And I felt that I really had the make-up to
do all that. It's sort of a self confidence about your
ability because you don't want to be at all concerned about your inability to do something
if you're in a studio because it'll show you the door real quick, particularly in the rhythm
section. Not too many people get away with less than
really good playing in the studios. So it's all the top notch people. And I guess I had some sort of - it's kind
of a glorification of being a musician and doing that kind of work, that high quality
of work. And it's kind of a trade off because in order
to be available for that kind of work you really can't be doing something else, full
time anyhow, because you'll not be called. I mean if you're gone, you're gone. And they don't think about you anymore. So you know you've got to sort of play that
game and you think can I leave town for a couple of weeks and still be okay? So it curtailed my road career. MR: That's so funny because - I mean it's
not funny except that Ernie Watts told me the same exact thing. It's like if you're gone for a week, people
like - well he's gone. RH: Yeah. Right. So you know you sneak out of town and do this
and do that and then you get back into town and nobody knows you went. But it would be difficult to try to lead more
than one life at a time. So I chose to try to stay in town after I
sort of took myself off the road, which was after - well I played Don's band off and on
for five years, and then joined Frank Zappa's Mothers of Invention for a couple of years,
and then went out some more and did a little sort of more rock-pop stuff, Seals & Crofts
and a few other people, and then by 1976 the studios were looking attractive to me and
I wanted to sort of become a homebody a little bit. So I had opportunities to stay on the road
but I dismissed them and came home, started a recording career, a studio career. MR: What years were you with Frank Zappa? RH: '73, '74, that period. MR: What was that like? RH: It was great. It was phenomenal. And Zappa is another zany character, genius
type whom I had total respect for and tried to do what he wanted me to do in the band
what function, what my function would be in the band, and it included more things than
perhaps I would have done otherwise in terms of theatrics perhaps and things like that. Extra musical stuff. And the other thing too is that you kind of
have to ignore maybe some of his commentary and some of his lyrics because they are on
the racy side or on the side that maybe you don't agree with totally. But I saw it as a gig and an opportunity to
play the music. So I was interested in the musical part of
what he was doing, because it was very challenging and the band was very good and comprised of
some wonderful musicians. MR: Was Ian Underwood on that gig? RH: Ian was on that group. His wife Ruth was on the group as a percussion,
Jean Luc Ponty was in the band, George Duke, keyboard player, was in the band. So I mean just that core right there was phenomenal. MR: In your studio experience, when you look
back on stuff from that era, is there records that stand out for you that you were happy
to be a part of? RH: Yeah. I was happy to be on any recordings that Don
ever did even though I'm still hopeful that reissues will improve the sound and whatnot. And the Zappa stuff I was very pleased with
the recordings there. And in my studio career, I mean a lot of what
I did was for theatrical and television. And so when you go in and do something like
that, for me it was go in, do a good job and leave. And the whole event is behind me. And if it was something that was going to
come out on motion picture or even on T.V., I would probably miss it or not be involved
in the fact that I want to go hear my - check myself out. So it was work. MR: It was what you did. RH: It's what I did on a daily basis. But then anytime I got a chance to do a recording
for a record then I felt it was - more of my ego involved in it. I wanted to make sure that I did a good job. Because this is forever. A record is forever and I want to be well
represented. And so I would look forward to the opportunity
of playing on records and I enjoyed playing with people like Al Jarreau. There's a record called "This Time" that I'm
on with some other wonderful musicians and it's one of my favorites still and I'm proud
of that project and then some Manhattan Transfer stuff that I did over the years and I'm proud
of that. And then I had one opportunity to record with
Wayne Shorter and it was really a challenging situation and very rewarding at the same time. MR: Which record was that? RH: It's the record called "Atlantis." And there's one tune on that record, because
Alex Acuna did the rest of the record, there's one tune that was added called "Endangered
Species." And it was the last thing they cut and so
I got called in by a friend of mine whose song it was, because he thought I might be
able to handle this. So it was all synthesized out and I had to
play to the synth track, just me. And Wayne did too, Wayne did sort of a scratch
soprano thing with it. And he told me - he didn't tell me what to
play. I had the full score. There was no drum part. So I listened and I decided what I was going
to do and then I started playing. And after some run throughs and whatnot we
started making the takes and it came time to do the take, and Wayne said, "Thank you
very much, that was great," and that was it. So in other words I got no instruction from
him, not really any instruction from anybody else, I just had to put it together. And I found it very rewarding to do that. Wayne - I have such respect for him as a musician. MR: Yeah. You played with John Klemmer? RH: Played with John Klemmer. He was actually in Don's band, that's where
I met him. MR: Whatever happened to John Klemmer, do
you know? RH: Well I see that John was maybe one of
the first New Age saxophone players, you know, with what he was doing back, way back when. A phenomenal player. Really a wonderful jazz player. But I think John had some, maybe some psychological
problems and so it kind of made him disappear from the public for a while. And I really haven't followed his career so
I don't know what he's doing. I think he's still recording though. MR: Okay. And you played on "The French Connection?" RH: Yeah. MR: What's that like? You sit in front of the screen? RH: It's not so important that I see-
MR: You don't see the screen but the conductor is facing the screen. RH: The conductor is using the screen to make
sure that the way he wrote the music is working with the action. And sometimes you have to coordinate certain
things in the music with actual hits on the screen. What comes to mind is that I did a lot of
cartoon stuff in the late 80s and 90s, a lot of the Warner Brothers stuff and that's extremely
specific in terms of usually following the action. MR: I'll bet. RH: And there I didn't have to follow the
screen. See as long as I played my music I was going
to be perfect. So you have to trust that what you see on
the paper is exactly right and you play it exactly right and you'll be fine. MR: What kind of - who were the people that
were writing the scores for those cartoons? RH: The main guy was - well before Richard
Stone it was the gentleman who wrote all the Tiny Toon stuff, and why can't I think of
his name right now. He's a film score - I'll think of it in a
minute. MR: Okay. RH: But the next tier was the Richard Stone
group and it was comprised of five or six different composers. Richard was a studier of the Carl Stallings
school of cartoon writing and did it quite well. And so we would do two, three sessions a week,
stacks of music, and we would just whip through that stuff and the caliber of musicianship
was so good it was frightening. Every chair was brilliant at what they did. Because I mean if you think about cartoon
music it's just all over the place. And you need to first of all be a phenomenal
reader, you need to know all the styles, you need to be able to play anything at any given
moment. And technology being what it is, usually you
had to conduct your way through tempo changes and whatnot but they were able to use click
maps so that they could - previous to the recording they could lay out a click map so
that tempos would change with the click as you were recording. And sometimes the tempo change would be completely
unrelated. So you'd be going along like this click-click-click-click
[slower] click-click-click-click. So the orchestra would run through one time,
hear the tempo change and see the music and they'd record it and they'd get it. So you know, that's the kind of skill that's
require to play that kind of stuff. But to go back to the "French Connection"
thing, it's - again - just read the music and you'll be okay. Trust that the composer took care of all that
ahead of time, and it's his problem if it doesn't work out. He's got to talk to the producer now and they've
got to work that out. I've been on many gigs where the composer
has been called into the booth and fifteen minutes later he comes out and says, "Well
let's put that one aside, we're going to go on to the next thing.' MR: Oh, so he's got to go back in there. RH: He's got to go back and redo some stuff. MR: Scuffle. RH: Yeah. MR: That's got that famous car chase scene
in there. I wonder have you ever seen it? RH: Oh yeah, sure. MR: And then you've listened to-
RH: Oh yeah that's one thing that I certainly did check out. And I mean I've been following Gene Hackman
ever since. He's a great actor, I love him. MR: Wow. And you said the studio - well you were going
there I think - that the studio scene has changed. RH: Yeah. I mean again, technology and economics especially
is changing lots of things. There's less work, lots of musicians, so what
happens is there's an attrition rate and people fall by the wayside and it's left with a certain
core that pretty much doing all the work that's remaining, at least in Los Angeles, because
now it's going everywhere. It didn't used to be that way, L.A. was the
place and New York. Those were the places to go record. But now you have a lot of product coming to
Canada, you have a lot going overseas, and a lot of it is for economic reasons. So a lot of things are sanctioned by agreements
with the unions and the production people and I think a lot of the production people
are seeing that it's just too expensive sometimes to do it via the union rules. MR: So how do they get around that? RH: They leave town. MR: They leave town. RH: Yeah, they leave town. MR: Well is the union, in your opinion - how
do I put this - have they helped musicians in the last twenty years? RH: Have they helped musicians. I think they've helped musicians to establish
something concrete in terms of the dollar amount we put on our services and the benefits
we get for our services and so setting scales and setting conditions, I think that's all
been very important. Otherwise if we were all making our own deal
it would be chaotic. Everybody would have to have his own personal
manager and taking care of business. So at least we know that if we go do a job
and if it's a union job, you know certain things, certain conditions are going to be
met, you know how much money you're going to be making, so it takes a lot of that heat
off. You don't have to be your own negotiator in
terms of that. And the union I think has tried to move with
the times, realizing the economy is changed and ways of doing things have changed. But I don't think they've done enough for
the production side, to decide let's continue doing it this way because it's the best. I think the best musicians still are the ones
that are in Los Angeles, because they're used to doing it, they know the routine. The best technology is there. But still younger people come in and the old
school is the old school. Now there's a new school of thought and the
new school of thought is how much is it going to cost, how can we get it done some other
way, we do have the benefit of synthesizers, we do have the benefit of other means to do
things, licensing of the music. If we can avoid paying a bunch of musicians
and going into an expensive studio, etc., let's do that. So that's what we're having to deal with. So the times are changing and I don't know. Maybe at some point there will be no need
for the studio musician except now and then. MR: Yeah. Who were the arrangers that you'd perk up,
so to speak, when you saw that they were going to be working the date. RH: Johnny Mandel, well let's see, arrangers
- oh I did a lot of arrangements that Don Costa did. I do appreciate that particular school of
writing, the Billy Byers and the Billy Mays and the Nelson Riddles, and then if you get
a chance to play more of the big band stuff, Sammy Nestico and Bob Brookmeyer and those
guys. All those arrangers I enjoy. But there are some other arrangers that are
not so well known that I also appreciate, because they don't do that kind of music,
they do a different kind of music. You might even call them orchestrators. MR: Right. In your clinic you were talking about the
first time you heard Tony Williams, and that you weren't ready for it. You had to go back and revisit it later on? RH: Yeah I did. I realized what he was doing, I wasn't going
to keep up with it. Technically I wasn't there, conceptually I
wasn't there. I was just still learning. I was still sort of learning in school and
getting my listening skills to be able to catch up with what he was doing. So I was listening to Shelly Manne and Buddy
Rich and Mel Lewis and Joe Morello and all those guys. Great players. Loved all of them, I could hear what they
were doing. I could never play what Buddy Rich did but
I could follow him. But Tony was a whole different animal. And I heard kind of where he was coming from
and Philly Joe, I listened to Philly a lot and Art Blakey and Max. And it scared me, it really did. I knew I had to put this away for a while. MR: Do you think that Tony Williams knew what
he was doing all the time? RH: Yeah. He did. MR: Okay. So it wasn't sort of a happy accident. I don't mean to say that he didn't know, but
sometimes I was wondering if he got into a thing and like - let's say maybe technically,
I don't really know what this is but I can play it. RH: Right. Well he was so fearless that he could go seemingly
out of the music or out of the time and because he had such a feel for the music it didn't
really matter if what he was doing was going to measure up somehow. He would bring it out. So what you could do is you could follow his
phrasing. You could read his phrasing, even though you
didn't understand what he was doing. And that's the thing that I had a problem
with because I didn't understand how he was doing that. And I knew enough about drumming that I knew
that it wasn't an accident, what he was doing. He has some control over what he was doing. And so underneath all that there was this
incredible intelligence about it all, and then this sort of on fire drumming that was
ferocious. MR: Sometimes I wish I could have read the
minds of like Ron Carter and - like we think that they had this tremendous rapport going
and sometimes you wonder like were they lost at all? RH: You know when I listen to the records
with Herbie and Ron and Tony, they rarely lost one another. I mean yeah there are a couple of times when
the beat got turned around and whatnot but it was so incidental and Ron was so good at
reading Tony and laying down the - pinning down, acting as the go-between between Herbie
and Tony. Because Herbie and Tony were back and forth
with each other constantly you know. And Ron just knew what to do. So I have so much respect for that position
in the band. The bass player is so key. MR: Are there other rhythm sections that,
if you were given an assignment to drummers or bass players to say go listen to these
rhythm sections, who else might you demand they hear? RH: Well I think you've got to mention Paul
Chambers and Jimmy Cobb and Wynton Kelly. I think you have to mention
Mel Lewis - who was the bass player with- MR: Richard Davis was on some of that. RH: Richard Davis. That was an interesting relationship there. When I listen to it it works, but Richard
is so on top. And normally the bass player is not on top,
it's the drummer that's on top. But in this case Richard is just pushing like
crazy. But it creates this feel. And it was the same thing with Ron and Tony
but Tony was on top. But it creates this thing. MR: You know it's like how does that possibly
work, if someone's pushing the beat, how can it not speed up? RH: Well in many cases it does. But what I tell my students is you want to
have control over where you're putting the time. The time is here. Okay now how do you want to relate to that
time. You want to be pushing it or do you want to
be sort of holding back on it, depending on the style, and then can you control that. And it's subtle but it creates a feel, and
that's where rhythm sections - they work or they don't work. Because they somehow created a feel that's
working, and it's the relationship of where they are to where the beat is. MR: Yeah. Is it safe to say that if a drummer is pushing
a beat maybe not all of his limbs are pushing the beat? Maybe it's just the ride cymbal or something? RH: Well yeah, it gets tricky there, but I
know that when you talk about pop music for example they talk a lot about the time is
here but the back beat is sort of on the back side of where the beat is, and that gives
the effect of - the time is steady but it's got this sort of other pocket, it's like heavier,
it's deeper. So if you listen to somebody like Dennis Chambers
or Jeff Porcaro or - Steve Gadd is not in that category because Steve Gadd has flawless
time. He's got the best time of anybody in terms
of that kind of music. But I mean there are subtleties. A lot of subtleties. And I investigated all that because I knew
that when I was younger my problem was I was pushing. And then when I got into pop and rock and
whatnot I realized that I still had that problem of not being able to lay back where it needs
to be so I had to investigate and learn about what that was. I had to learn how to feel it. So it gave me another perspective on time. And working with a click also helped to develop
that too because when the click is there you can experiment with where to put it. And a lot of players who have never worked
with a click don't have that benefit. So I suppose some of it is a little academic
but I still was fortunate to be able to investigate some of that and then just listening to rhythm
sections and kind of hear what they felt like. But I mean with Steve Gadd I think any bass
player that you put with Steve is going to be a dream situation. So I know that I have particular favorites
in sort of the session world, Abraham Laboriel would be one of them, Jimmy Johnson would
be another. Jimmy Johnson plays with-
MR: He was with Flim and the BB's. RH: Flim and the BB's, but he travels with
the singer- MR: James Taylor. RH: James Taylor, yeah. He and Steve Gadd are playing currently on
tour. But every bass player I play with, I'm looking
for where we're both going to put it. Where are we going to come together. And if the bass player is a good one we'll
find something that works. So I'm willing to adjust, and I think the
bass player needs to be willing to adjust to find the common ground there. But there are some players who play as they
play and you can't budge them. MR: What's your feeling on amplification? Anything in particular? RH: No I think it's necessary for certain
kinds of music. Yeah. I mean I've played with a lot of bands and
I was surrounded with speakers and a lot of that. MR: Yeah. It seems like society's getting louder. RH: It is. MR: Or sound is all around. RH: This is true, yeah. To deal just on the acoustic level is only
for small acoustic groups in a cozy environment. Otherwise "turn 'em up." So I think it's a necessity in a lot of cases,
for bigger venues. MR: You said something in your clinic about
pop music and - do you remember what you said? RH: I don't use the word idiot - I didn't
mean to use the word idiot. MR: I know that, but I was saying oh I could
write that down. But basically you're saying like jazz, the
audience has to listen harder, has to be a little more hip. RH: Yeah. It's sit down music. It's not stand up and move your body music. And pop music is primarily dance music or
it's background music. It's not meant to be listened intently to
because it's not that deep. The only thing I can say in its defense is
if a song is good then I'll listen to it, so it's in the song. But most of the time if you're trying to reach
a mass audience the song is going to be really simple and completely understandable, every
aspect of the form and the song and the beat and the chords, so everybody can get into
it. Because after all it's all about record sales
with pop and popular music. So you know jazz, the unfortunate thing about
some jazz is that it's trying to make money and so it gets watered down and then you have
to call it something else, like soft jazz or new age or smooth jazz. And I don't listen to that stuff. Because I know what they're trying to do and
that's fine but it's not what I like to do as a player. Now if I was called in to do a session to
do that music I'd be there. Because that's my job. But I wouldn't join a band to do that. MR: And you probably wouldn't go out and buy
the record that you played on either. RH: Right, I wouldn't buy the record either. MR: It's not hard to understand I think that
jazz, what, sells two to three percent of - it takes a little bit of work to listen
to it. RH: It does. I think if there was a little more exposure
of the medium on the radio, maybe people who wouldn't normally be introduced to it might
listen, maybe get something out of it and become a fan. But that takes promotion and it takes interest
and you know a lot of people like their music to be nice and easy and have a function for
them in their daily life. True lovers of jazz or true lovers of classical
music or whatever, I mean they are willing to sit down and at that moment enjoy something
and get something out of it. And I think that population is small. MR: This event here, do you think it's realistic,
do you think it's a good thing for the music? RH: Yeah I do. I see a lot of young students all the time
and what's so interesting to me is that even though times are changing and it seems harder
to get a gig or to make a living playing music, it hasn't stopped people's interest in learning
how to play. So I don't know what that means. I can't say that these people are going to
have a career that they want playing, but they're still interested. So to me all that's about is that the arts
are still very much an important part of who we are as people. And it's necessary to expose people to those
things. Visual arts and music and all of it, if you
don't get it as a young person you have to, on your own, get it later on, otherwise you're
not going to get it. So to be exposed at an early age I think is
really important and that's the biggest problem in - at least in America that I see - is that
a lot of that has been taken out of the schools, the arts part of the education. It's the other side of the brain and we're
missing it. We're thinking A-B-Cs is really what's important
and other practical issues. But the music side and all is very important. I feel fortunate and I got introduced at a
young age. Because now I'm as interested today as I ever
was and it's thanks to my background. But a person visiting jazz for the first time
now as say a 40-year-old, you know where would they start? It's daunting to think about it. MR: Well there sure is a lot of product out
there. RH: Yeah and more and more and more. Yeah you're right. And the one thing I tell my students is that
the unfortunate thing for you is that you have more now to listen to than I did when
I was growing up. When I was growing up it was happening. You're past it now, you have to go back and
look at all of it. MR: There's a lot to look at. RH: That's a lot to look at. So they actually have a bigger job than I
did. MR: Right. So do you think your father was surprised
at your success? RH: I don't know. I never asked him. He never told me. I don't think my mother is surprised, and
probably my father isn't either. You know what I mean? He supports everything I do. They've always supported everything I do,
and I'm thankful for that. They didn't try to steer me some other way. MR: What's up in the near future? RH: Continuing to teach. I'm recording with a band now that's called
Baba Ganoush, that's actually like a hummus kind of dish, and it's called Baba Ganoush
because the guitar player has a Greek background. He's an American fella but he's a wonderful
guitar player, Jimmy Mahlis is his name and we have a quartet. We just recorded. We need to shop it now and try to get it out. But it's quite unusual. It doesn't sound like anything else. It gives me a chance to really explore what
I know and what I can bring to the music. And every person in the band has a unique
voice in the band. It's based on traditional Greek rhythms and
scales and whatnot but it's Americanized. It's jazz but it's not that either. It's hard to put a label on it. MR: You know I recall Dave Brubeck talking
about hearing Greek music and that's what inspired him to do [scats]. RH: Yes of course. That's a primary Greek rhythm right there. MR: Did those albums have an effect on you? RH: Yeah they did. I mean I guess I must have subjectively understood
what it was. I didn't objectively be able to explain except
I just heard it and I played along with those records and tried to learn as much about it
as possible. And I think that was probably the main reason
why I was able to approach Don Ellis' music was because of that. Because not only was I enjoying the music
of Dave Brubeck but I was investigating it as well. I wanted to know what it was that was going
on there. And I don't know where that comes from. It's just one person's desire to know something. MR: Yeah. Well it's pretty cool he's still out there
doing it. RH: That's right. And his sons and whatnot. MR: Well it's been a fascinating conversation
and it's been a pleasure to meet you. RH: Thank you for talking with me. MR: And I wish you the best of luck with the
Greek music. You know you said it's different than anything
that's out there and maybe that's what'll get it out there. RH: Yeah, we're kind of hoping that, yeah. Because it's nice to hear something different
come out. Because I think a lot of the traditional jazz
stuff continues to be what I would call regurgitated in new groups and new artists and whatnot
and it's all great but I don't know if the effort is to try to prove what's already been
done, but I know that music - and I said it in my clinics also - is that music needs to
be of its time, and for the people of its time. And so if jazz needs to change to do that
then I think jazz needs to change. Let the tradition be the tradition but then
let it allow to be grown and to go somewhere else, and maybe not call it jazz anymore,
but I don't know what to call these new things that I hear. MR: All right. Well on that note, thanks a lot. RH: Thank you. Applause-applause-applause.
