- We should micromanage it first, I really mean that, for a week or two, and then we need to manage by objective. I think they love the fact
that we might trust them enough to give them some liberty and autonomy. (upbeat music) - The new book that we're
gonna talk about today is called A New Kind of Diversity: Making the Different Generations On Your Team a Competitive Advantage. Tim, welcome to the podcast. - Craig, it's always good to see you. And like I said before,
you're looking good. You're looking really good. - Hey, thank you. Before we dive into real
helpful content, years ago, I can't remember how
many years ago it was, you were at my house for some event, we were talking, and
your daughter, Bethany, didn't have somewhere to
go during a certain period and she actually moved in with us for I think it was a
whole summer years ago. - It was was, yes.
- And she's had good news in her life as well. She's got good news recently? - Yeah, she's very
serious with a boyfriend and they're making plans for marriage now, so it's kind of exciting, yeah. - Yeah, that's exciting. Well, I'm super glad to have you on here. And this content, I read your book, and this is a book that is available anywhere books are sold. I wanna encourage people, one of the most helpful things we can do is to understand the people
that we're working with. And I think you would agree that this is something generationally
that we often challenge with or are challenged with. The book is incredibly helpful. Before we dive into it,
I'd love to ask you, as one of my favorite
go-to leadership experts, when is the first time that you realized that you were a leader? - Wow. You know, I think, Craig, it was when I was 17 years old and I was helping Shawn Mitchell, who is a pastor in Oceanside, but he had started an
outreach on Friday night and we'd show a really great movie that had a great nugget in it and that he would get up and speak. And he's a dynamic speaker. I was in high school, so I held his coat and got him water and set up the chairs and things like that. But I remember Craig, one week, maybe two months into this gig, Shawn came backstage and whispered to me, "Tim, I don't think I'm gonna
be able to speak tonight. You're gonna have to go on tonight." And I said, "Sean, I set up chairs, that's what I do, you know?" And he said, "Who's gonna
speak if you don't speak?" So bottom line is he
gave me his notes, Craig, and I looked them over,
and with knees knocking, I spoke to a pretty big crowd of my peers for the first time. Well, bottom line it must have gone okay, 'cause Shawn gave me a big hug and said, "From now on we're gonna rotate. I'll be on one week,
you'll be on the next." And I've been speaking on a
regular basis since I was 17. The funny part about the story
is, just a few years ago, Shawn and I got back
together just to reminisce about old times and when we brought up that first time I got up, Shawn could not give me any eye contact. And I said, "What's wrong?" And he looked up and yeah, he goes, "Tim, I didn't have laryngitis
that night, I'm so sorry." He said, "It was the only way I knew I could get you up there 'cause you would always depend on me." And so I thank God that he
had the wherewithal to say, "The key tonight is not
speaking one more time, it's getting this young
whipper snapper up there and developing his skills." So it was at that point I thought, "I better watch out what
I'm saying and doing." And it's paid off big time, so. - You know, I love that
because that's a great example of what we can do in
leadership is sometimes when we know we can do it ourselves, it's better to step aside
- Absolutely. - and empower someone else to do it. And look at what you've done as a result of that one small gesture from
someone who believed in you. That's pretty powerful.
- Yeah, absolutely. - I wanna tell you, thank
you for your Habitudes books, and because like I said,
about my team's like going, "You're interviewing Dr. Elmore? You know, Dr. Elmore?" They're pretty excited. And I'm curious, of all
the different habitudes, is there one that stands out to you as the one that people
talk about the most? - Wow. Well, Craig, there's a new one that hasn't been published yet, but it's getting a lot of, I'm talking to NFL teams
about it and so forth, it's just something we need right now in the time we're in post-COVID, I call it guide dogs and guard dogs. And I basically talk about, we've given service jobs
to dogs all the time, but the guide dog and the guard dog were two very common jobs. The guard dog's job is to
protect, he's growling, sniffing out trouble, suspicious, barking. The guide Dog's job is to partner. I go first, I take someone
that can't see very well and lead them along the way. I think when we're scared and anxious, we become guard dogs, we hold
our cards close to our chest and we protect and that's all we do. But when we're guide
dogs, we're vulnerable, we're transparent,
we're taking initiative, and I'm pushing for
people to be guide dogs. People need guide dogs right now. And they're leaders not guard dogs. - I think you're right. And I'm curious if you would agree, it seems to me that with the leaders that I'm talking to right now, a lot of them would say even in what's considered kind
of a post-pandemic world, or at least growing toward that, that the complications of leadership today seem to be as extreme or maybe more so than a couple of years ago when we saw the peak of the chaos. Would you agree with that? - Yeah, I do.
- Disagree? What's your opinion? - I do, and here's why. I sat in a green room with 16, I guess I was one of the 16, CEOs. We're all gonna speak some point that day. And so I turned it into
a focus group and I said, "Hey, can I ask you guys a question?" I said, "Do you think that
leading today is harder than it was even a couple of years ago or even back in the day
when you were young?" Everybody said, "Absolutely harder today." One person said, "110%." And Craig, when I pushed
back on that, I said, "Wouldn't you think it'd be
harder when we were younger and we didn't know what we were doing?" Everybody stuck to their guns. And I think it's this, maybe I don't have any context
for this type of feeling, or I'm not sure how to deal
with this great resignation, this quiet quitting, this
agency that employees feel. And I don't wanna do them wrong, but I also need to run this organization and we can't just have therapy. You know, it's a little
bit tough sometimes. And some of us feel like, I don't know if I can do it
anymore and so they exit. And I feel like now's the
time we need to step up, not step back from our leadership. - So Dr. Elmore, how do we do that? And I think leaders, we
know we need to step up, but one of the things I
think a lot of people, I don't know if they'd
use this language or not, but we're trying to diagnose
what the real root problems are so that we can bring the
right kind of treatment, motivation, encouragement, systems, correction, challenge, whatever. And I'm not sure that anyone is confident that they're knowing what's
the right next few moves. What do you see? What do you suggest? How do we attack this? - It's a great question. And probably deserving of a better brain than what I've got right now, so. Maybe we defer that to someone better. But here's what I'm doing with my team that I think is helping. I'm not a psychotherapist,
I'm not a, you know. My daughter, Bethany, is a therapist. She's got tools in her tool
belt that I don't have. But when I offer my team context,
applications, and belief, those seem to be ones that really help. So people need context, you know? And when we first started
facing this pandemic, most people said, "I've never been through
a pandemic before." So I stepped up and I don't
think I was brilliant, Craig, but I said, "Do you guys realize? This is the fourth pandemic
our world has faced in the last 100 years. And here's what we learned
from the past ones, here's what we did, here are
the vaccinations we picked up, here are the discoveries we made." And suddenly they had
at least perspective. "Okay, you know, we may make it." Applications is key because
I think when we're anxious, we get fuzzy, we get flooded, and I think we need clear applications. We can say, "I don't know what we're gonna do five years from now. I can tell you what we're gonna do today." Bam, bam, bam, and it's
clear, actionable steps. People need clarity. You and I hear Andy talking about this. All people need clarity. The last one is belief. I think regardless of
how smart our people are, they need a leader they admire say, "I not only believe we're
gonna make it through this, I think we're gonna be stronger for it." And so when I do that, by the way, those three words spell CAB
and I kept saying to myself, "I gotta get in the CAB if I'm gonna get to my destination today." So that would be my council on that one. - That's good, they also spell BAC. - So.
- Well that's. (Tim laughs) Only you would've picked
that one up, Craig. - Well, it just depends on what order you put it in, so.
- That's right. That's right. - You know, I really enjoyed your book, A New Kind Of Diversity, and I can't wait to expose our
community to your thoughts. And I wanna talk about, I
got a bazillion questions, so there's five different
generations in the workplace, and according to your book,
this was shocking to me, that millennials and
Gen Z by the year 2025 will compose 70% of the workplace. So by the year 2025, 70% of the workplace will be millennials and Gen Z. I guess we should probably start with a quick overview
of the five generations and then let's dive into how
we can learn to work together in a way that really
makes for strong missions. - Absolutely. So for the first time in modern history, there are actually seven
generations alive right now, 'cause people are living
longer, you know, in their '90s. And mamas are still having babies. We got the alphas on the youngest side and the seniors on the oldest side. But five generations
may be working together. I just spoke to the Atlanta Braves and they had five generations in the room, and it was like from
interns to the 79 year old. And they were just very different. So the builder generation
would be the oldest that might still be on a campus today or a corporation today. They were born between 1929 and 1945. They were called builders
because they built so much out of so little, the Great Depression, World War II. They were civil, they were
respectful, they were loyal, they were grateful, you
know, that sort of thing. The baby boomers came
along, that's my generation, we were called boomers because
there was a boom of babies right after the soldiers
came back from World War II. 76.4 million people born in 18 years. So that was '46 to '64. Then comes Gen X. Am I guessing right? Are you an X-er Craig? 65 to-
- I'm an X-er, yes. - Yeah, okay.
- Yep, '67, yep. - So Gen X was first called
Baby Busters, not Gen X, because the first year of
your generation's existence was the public introduction
of the birth control pill. So instead of a boom,
it was a bust, you know? And then on top of that,
you had Roe v. Wade and you had a shrinking population, not a booming population. So X-ers grew up in the
shadow of the boomers, went through a little bit
of a darker time growing up in the '60s and '70s. Vietnam, Watergate, et cetera. Millennials came along next,
that was Gen Y following Gen X. They were people born in the
'80s and '90s, muscle minus. And we've been talking
about the millennials for 15 years now, throwing them
under the bus, have we not? And then finally, Gen Z
would be the young people really that have only
remember the 21st century. They've grown up not
just with a cell phone, but with a smartphone, mental
health has been an issue, terrorism's been an issue all
their life, mass shootings. So a little bit darker
time for these kids today. And can I just say one last thing? We've got to lead with empathy. I think so much we're just,
"Ah, these kids today. Fragile snowflakes, you know?" And maybe they are, maybe a few are, but I think they're great people and we've gotta start with empathy and get to grit along the way, yeah. - No, I absolutely agree with you. I think I always look for
what's good in a generation. And because all of us have our weak spots. And I think that the
millennials and the boomers have been back and forth at each other. And the reality is we
actually need each other in more ways than we know. I've got so many questions,
I don't know where to start. But I learned a lot from
your book about why Gen Z is struggling emotionally and mentally that I didn't quite understand. I had some intuition, but you brought a lot of texture to it. And we're hiring a ton of Gen Z. I would say probably right now, I'd say it's probably 70% would be Gen Z. And especially almost
100% in our intern program that would be Gen Z. Can you just, for our listeners who are gonna be working
with more and more Gen Z, help us to have empathy. What was different about their world that's making it more complicated
mentally and emotionally? - Okay, good question. I think for listeners to wrap their arms around Gen Z without stereotyping, they're often gonna come into a job with a high sense of agency
and a high sense of anxiety. So agency and anxiety. High agency, they have been
emboldened by a smartphone where they feel like I
can ask Google questions that I used to have to ask dad or mom. So a high sense of agency. We see this, by the way, we
see this in college sports. I'm in the portal, I'm changing teams, name, image, and likeness. Oh my gosh. You know, this is just crazy. But high anxiety, and
I think it was brought about by the very same smartphone. So Gen Z would've grown up
probably all their lives with a smartphone, maybe
from middle school on. And the average kid on social media is taking in 10,000 messages a day. Just imagine that listeners. I don't think our brains were hardwired to take in.
- It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. - Yes. So the number one word
that college students use to describe their life, Craig? Overwhelmed. I'm overwhelmed. 94% say I'm overwhelmed. That's just not how
life was supposed to be. I don't care what your
philosophy or theology is. And so I think we're
gonna need to lead them with better care. By the way, let me just say this, I remember when I started my
career right after college, I started with John Maxwell
right out of college. The mantra of a boss was, leave your personal problems at the door. You come in here to get your work done. Well today, the mantra is bring
your whole selves to work, which may mean baggage, it
may mean emotional challenges, it may mean mental illness. And so I think bosses are thinking, "My gosh, I gotta be a motivational
speaker, a cheerleader, a therapist, a you know. And I would say, yeah. Yeah, you kind of need
to be that in some ways to this team member that
has so much to offer, but may need a little help
getting started, yeah. - Yeah, I think you're right. I think there is a lot to offer. And I'll kind of explain this, and correct me where I'm wrong, I'm having empathy and optimism for the people that we're working with. Empathy for, like, when I was a kid, we were worried about
being bombed by Russia and we knew in the '80s, the
economy kind of went bad, but we didn't really understand it. Now, there's every war,
every act of terrorism, every school shooting,
the younger generation has been exposed to that since
they were eight years old. They see it directly.
- No doubt. - Anything that's hot,
any kind of pressure, they're gonna see on TikTok to fit in. They both wanna fit in
and they wanna stand out and they can't do both. The sexual pressures, both
of having immediate access to pornography would be overwhelming, I'm so glad I didn't have to navigate that because I don't know how I would've done, and then the gender questions that they're asking earlier today, and the reality, they've
watched their parents struggle financially through different economies, their childhood was interrupted
by a global pandemic, and now they're looking
and they're old enough to realize interest rate's high, houses are at an all
time high, I feel behind, I'm not gonna be to afford this, and it feels like my world's crumbling. Is that correct first of all? - No doubt about it.
- Am I correct in my assessment? - You put your finger on the issue. And this is what makes me say, I'm gonna try to give you a
booster to get started here, because there's so many things going against their having hope. - Yes, but there's also, in my opinion, and you can tell me if I'm, there's a little bit less entitlement, more of a, "I gotta get going." Kind of a street grit, a
willingness to work hard, almost a desire to work hard. And I think for the first time in a while, my age, when I was younger, I didn't really see the
value of older people. And I think there's some that
now really see the value of, I kind of want a coach,
I kind of want a mentor, but I don't really know how to ask. But there's a willingness to learn. Is that true? - Yeah, it is. In fact, the data shows that Gen Z tests slightly lower than
millennials in entitlement. So you're right. I would say entitlement is
morphing into empowerment. They feel a sense of
agency, like I mentioned, they go, "I gotta get after this." And they're better at saving
than millennials were. - Yes they are, yes. - And think about it, with
the economy right now, you better be good at saving. They look at boomer parents that haven't saved as well maybe. - No I know many 19 year
olds that have more money in the bank than 40 year olds. Like yeah, dead serious
all over the place. So the other thing is, not only
do they wanna learn from us, but I think you would agree we
would be really, really wise generationally to learn
from those who are younger. Can you comment a little bit about that? What do we need? What do people my age group, Gen X, even the older millennials,
your age group, what do we need to learn? - Yeah. Well, Chip Conley uses a great term. He talks about modern
elders and young geniuses. And I think both are in the workplace. The modern elder would
be people like you and I, we're over 40 or 45 years old, whatever. And we really have some
experience that can be helpful. But these young geniuses have an intuition on where the world is going that's faster than you and I have. So maybe one more piece of data. Raymond Cattell, a British psychologist, about 50 years ago showed
us for the first time that in our first 40 years, we experienced fluid intelligence, for the second 40 years, we experience crystallize intelligence. And even though we have
both all of our lives, we major in fluid earlier, we
major in crystallize later. Here's the difference, fluid intelligence is
I'm good at adapting, I'm good at creating,
I'm good at innovation. Crystallize is I'm good at summarizing and clarifying what we've learned. So you can see how, oh my gosh,
we need young people around. They have an intuition
on what they could do with TikTok to monetize
the company, you know? And then you and I need to be around to be those people that say,
"Ooh, watch out for that. I made that mistake when I was 28. I want you to avoid that." You know, if we got together,
it could be magic, I think. But we gotta get together. - Yeah, there's no way
to fast track experience. - Yeah, that's right. - You can be really smart,
you can have good intuition, but you cannot fast track experience. And yeah, it's really
hard the older we get to have the generational,
the younger, the savviness, the intuition, and I mean
just, and even the language, and to understand what's
going on in the culture. So I wanna ask it on two different sides, I would be on the older side, what can I bring practically to a 20 something year old team member? And not only what can I bring, but how do I do it in a way that I'm not the old person saying, "You gotta pay your dues." You know, that kinda stuff,
which we know they hate. Gimme some advice on what I can bring and how I bring it. - I think there are two kinds of truths that any organization or team needs. And I'm gonna call them timely
truths and timeless truths. So the timely would be where young people really are gonna pay great dividends. I'll give you a quick illustration. I talked about this guy in the book, Tony was a college student
a couple years ago, worked at a major paint
brand retail store, started mixing paints at the store, shooting videos of
himself mixing the paints, put 'em on TikTok, went viral. He got 1.4 million followers. Not views, followers. So we thought, oh my gosh,
we could monetize this. We could use this for
marketing to another million and a half people that we're not reaching. So he puts a slide deck together and asked to meet with the
executives, the management, to show him the slide deck
and talk about this idea. He did not get one set of eyes
to look at that slide deck. Didn't get one person that would say yes to I'll listen to you. But what did Tony did get was
something he didn't expect, he got fired. He got fired because they
were sure he was doing this on company time, he must be
distracting to the customers, he's probably stealing the paint. All the things that we
suspect of young people. So Tony moves to Florida from Ohio, has 2 million followers now,
started his own paint store. This will happen to us over
and over and over again if we're not stopping to
listen before we talk. So I don't know if that's too elementary, but I think that's one. I am listening to my 20 somethings and 30 somethings all the time. So they've got timely stuff. Now I've got timeless insight. And I think you do too, Craig, because we've been around
the block a few times. And so we can say, "Ah, can
I share something that just, whatever generation you're from, this is gonna pay great dividends." So I think that's the
addition we need to make. But we're gonna have to, once again, build a bridge rather than a wall and not just stay in an echo chamber. - I like that, build a
bridge written on a wall. So I read that story in your book and it made me feel sick to my stomach because I wondered how many times have I missed that in
a younger team member? It was interesting. And you know how fast life goes by, it seems like just
yesterday I was that young. - Yes, we were emerging leaders. - Team member, right? And I remember now, I
was way over confident, I thought I knew way more
than I did, and looking back, I needed wisdom, I needed
help, I needed coaching, I needed mentoring more than I realized. But I also had really
good ideas that, I mean, I was rejected from ordination in ministry 'cause my ideas were too weird, right? And that, I mean, it was
literally turned away from being ordained because my
ideas were too far out there. And they ended up, some of them were not bad ideas over time. And so that I was
rejected in the same way. What advice would you have,
Tim, for younger team members? One of the most common
questions we get asked, they'll say, "How do I lead up?" And so both there may be younger or they may be newer on the team or they're lower in the organization, how can they take the
ideas, the insight they have and help those that might
be tempted to fire the guy with the really good viral TikTok campaign versus transform a company? How do they lead up well? - Yeah, I remember being in this situation in my '20s with John Maxwell, who was clearly a better
leader than I was and am. But I remember so
wanting to do some things because I thought I had
some innovative ideas that we needed to do. So here's what I did that worked. I did a lot of things that didn't work. But here's some things that did work. One, I needed to learn his love language. And for John it was
productivity and saving time. So I wanted to make sure
what I was doing for him was bearing fruit, it
was producing results. And I did. I mean, thank God, what I was doing was exactly what he wanted. So I had his ear. And I knew I saved him time. When he asked me to do
a project and I did it, he would write me a thank you note and here's how I knew his love language. He would say, "Tim, you just
saved me nine hours of time." And I thought, this is him
telling me I love you, you know? So learn the love language and add value. Number two, I wanted to make
sure that I met with him and listened and expressed loyalty so that I would earn my
right to share an idea. Now I know loyalty is
an old fashioned word. We're a bunch of free
agents right now, aren't we? But I just wanna express, if you're young and listening to this, show some sense of, "I'm
with you, I believe in you, I'm with you, I believe in you. Yes, I have a brand of my own, but I'm really here for this team." When I did that, I would then have the right to say, "You know, I was thinking the other day about this problem we've got. Have you seen this problem?" "Oh yeah, I have." And I would toss something out. And I'm telling you, there
were two or three major things we did in San Diego back
in the '80s and '90s that I had come up with, but I had to earn my right to say that. So in one sense, it's paying your dues, but I feel like it was
a good way to do it. - That is helpful. If what you say is true, 70 percent's gonna be on the younger side. We better be aware of how
to create an organization that helps them thrive. Can you tell me when a, let's say a Gen Z or a younger millennial, enters the workforce today, how are their expectations, needs, wants? How are they different than
maybe some other older leaders wouldn't quite yet understand? (Tim laughs) - Where do I begin? This is an hour long response Craig, that I'm gonna try to do in two minutes. So remember I mentioned
the word agency before. Hang onto your hats, they
may come and interview and ask for things that you would think, "Oh my, maybe after 10 years, buddy." You know, that sort of thing. And so I'm not trying to
throw anybody under the bus, just get ready, they're
feeling very audacious and they may come in asking for money, more money than you thought
that they ought to have, more autonomy perhaps, and I do believe we should
micromanage it first, I really mean that, for a week or two, and then we need to manage by objective. I think they love the fact
that we might trust them enough to give them some liberty and autonomy. But we give them autonomy
as they show responsibility. I mean, that's just good parenting, that's just good leadership. So that would be one thing. I think another item is they
want to have a voice quicker than we got a voice back in
the day when we were younger. So I think what I found
myself doing that helped along the way when we
hired new 20 somethings was everybody has a voice, but not everybody has an
equal voice right away. And they would sit back,
I could that made the hair on the back of their neck bristle. But here's what I meant, in
fact I even said this, I said, "If I'm down at Chick-fil-A headquarters and an intern says something and Tim Tassopoulos says something, the president of the company,
I'm gonna will listen to Tim. You know, he's got 40 years
of experience, you know?" And they would usually smile and realize, "Okay, I see what you're saying." So I do want them to feel
like they got a voice, but we need to be honest with him. You earn that depth of voice along the way as you get bring results. That's just the name of the game. So I'll stop there for now. But I feel like those are
common sense but needed counsel. - And so in the younger generation, what are the qualities that
you see they're bringing that makes you really, really excited to have them on your team? - Yeah, so this is an easy one. By the way, let me first say, too many of us leaders stereotype. We do say things like those Gen Z-ers are fragile snowflakes. 'Cause we've heard that
term and we nodded our head and tisked and tasked and
we just didn't like it, and so we stereotype. To me, Craig, stereotypes
are mental shortcuts that are not helpful. We take shortcuts and
it's not fair to anybody. We don't like to be stereotyped. So I believe they bring a
hacker mindset 95% of the time. Hackers not just has
to do with technology, they find a way to get behind a system and figure out how it
works and they'll do it. So I love the hacker mindset they bring. Even more than the millennials. Number two, 72% of high school students, public high school students in America, wanna be an entrepreneur. So they're very often bringing
an entrepreneurial mindset. What if we could set up gig economies within the organization? So they're getting to start
this or jump in on that or do this project or that project and they feel like I'm not bored because I'm getting to
move around and be creative and start things, of course
they're gonna need help, but they wanna be entrepreneurs. That would be a big one. The third thing I would say
is like any new generation, they're gonna be a fresh set of eyes. I know, Craig, you practice, it's whenever you have new team member, tell us what you see,
tell us what you see. 'Cause we don't see it anymore like that. Though they're gonna bring that. We just hired a guy right outta Michigan, University of Michigan,
he's been so helpful. He is so great. In fact, I often say, "Cam, I'm gonna be
working for you one day." But I'm telling you, he's
brought so much to our team, because we've listened as well as talked. And I would just say, we
owe it to him to listen. - That's one of the quotes that
I highlighted in your book. You talked about read before you lead. - Yeah, yeah. - Tell me how that works
in different generations, 'cause it's gotta go every way. Younger, older, older, younger, crossover, jump up two, Jump down three. - Yeah. - What do you mean by
read before you lead? - Well that simply means I am figuring out who's in front of me
before I give directions. Remember Craig, one of our
habitudes is chess and checkers. When I play checkers, all my pieces look alike and move alike. When I play chess, woo baby, I better figure out who this
is, bishop or rook or knight. You've got bishops, rooks, and knights and they're all in front of you. So I gotta figure out who it is. I would say one of the categories that I think is big for
us is communication. You might have a millennial that wants to just text
message back and forth. And if that's not the communication norm, we owe it to them to say,
"Hey, I appreciate that, feel free to text me. But if you want a team to
get something, don't text it. We use Slack or we use this or that." I think communication norms need to be expressed to team members and I think a Gen Z-er
is gonna be different. A Gen Z-er might say, "Keep it
short and do it on a screen." A millennial might say, "Keep it interactive when you communicate. I like interaction." A Gen X-er might say, "Keep it real. Don't tell me life's wonderful, it's not wonderful, you know?" And a boomer might say, "You
know, gimme the bottom line. I've been around 50 years here
gimme the bottom line here." So that's silly and almost cliche, but I think we owe it to them to say, I know how to communicate to this person 'cause I know who they are. - One of the things we've done here, we use a lot of different
personality type studies. And everyone's got their favorite ones. And I think organizationally, it's good to have one or two
that you kind of specialize in. So you know when I'm trying
to show value to a person with a certain type of Meyers Briggs, I will do it in a different way than when I'm trying to
show value to someone else. Or if I'm communicating
for a specific objective, if I know their personality
type, I might put it in writing, I might ask some questions, others, I know they're more intuitive and they're gonna hear
it in a different way. How important would you
say it is, Tim, to train, if you got five generations
working together, how much awareness do we need to be of how differently we think, how different our frameworks are? Is it as important as personality
types? More important? How do we educate our teams to be successful working together? - I would say, this is
just me and my opinion, I would say it's as
important as personality, as gender even. In fact, Craig, we've talked for years about ethnic diversity, gender
diversity, income diversity. I think generational diversity
is as real as the others. But it's an elephant in the room that we haven't really talked about. But I think we need to talk about it. So you and I both have
traveled to other countries. Think about it, when you
fly to another country, you psych yourself up for, ooh, I'm gonna have to work harder to connect with these French
people or Chinese people. They speak a different language. They have different customs here. They have different values. Bingo. I think I talked to 22 different values, different customs, and
maybe different language. So I think we need to say, "I've got to put the work in to connect with them, at 22 perhaps, well just like I do a
cross-cultural interaction." So that would be my answer. And I feel like in the
book, you know what, this book was meant to be
a bit of an encyclopedia where you don't have
to read every chapter, just go to chapter
seven if you need seven, go to chapter nine if you need nine. And it's gonna help you understand, ah, no wonder they think this way. No wonder they said that in the meeting. Of course they would. Look at what shaped them as they grew up. So that's my goal. - I found myself more excited about some of the chapters because of what I wanted to learn. But I was so interested in each
one because I was learning, there's so much learning
that everyone stood out as interesting once I got into it. And I'm kind of curious, are
there common denominators that work no matter the generation? For example, if you go
to a different country, eye contact probably
matters or hand gestures or closed off versus open others. So there's certain physical
interactions that bridge gaps. Are there qualities, traits that no matter the age group seem to work? Or are we just more different than that? - Yeah, no, I think there are. I do think there's a universal
human need to be listened to. So I know I keep going back
to that, please forgive me, but I actually think
whatever nation I'm in, whatever state I'm in in the US, if I stop and listen to someone, I love what David Augsburger said, here I'll see if I can paraphrase this, to be heard is so close to being loved that for many, it's
almost indistinguishable. I love that. Being heard is so close to
being loved that for many, it's almost indistinguishable. So if I listen, you know
Bethany, my daughter, if I listen to Bethany
as if I might be wrong and she might be right, I blow her mind because I'm this dad that's 30 years older and written books and all so forth, but I'm listening like, "Oh my gosh, I never thought
of it that way, sweetheart." Oh, I win her at the heart level. And I bet with your kids when
you listen like that, they're, "Dad, seriously? You're Craig Groeschel, you know? Author and pastor and so forth." So I would just say, I know
everybody listening knows this, but if we will speak if
we believe we're right, but listen as if we believe we're wrong, we win people at the heart level I think. - That's so good. I think it's so important
that it's really sad when we do generalize an entire generation and especially when we do
it with a negative mindset. I think it's heartbreaking
because we have to understand like we are the way we are
because what we experienced. And we grew up in different times and we had different opportunities, different temptations, and it
shapes us, it's significantly. The part of the country
what we were raised in, who grew up with. And the more understanding we have, the more empathy we have, but also we see the way to
leverage each other's strengths. - Yeah, no doubt. - And so I don't know why. I'm always fighting to see
the good in each generation. - Yeah, I love it. - And I think I'm very
optimistic about what's coming and I also, I need help
from the younger generation all the time, all the time, all the time. And they are... Sometimes it's not a
matter of who's right, sometimes it's just a matter of, okay, that's a different perspective. And if we can't understand
where someone came from, why they might think that way, then we really can't ever
get anything done together. And I think it's just... I hope our audience gets
this book and dives into it because it's incredibly helpful. - Craig, what you just said was powerful and I think I use a phrase
in one of the chapters, context explains conduct. Context explains conduct. Once you hear the backstory,
"Oh my gosh, that explains it." I may not like it, but at least explains words
of behavior and attitudes. And that's what leaders owe it. We owe it to our teams to get
the context of our people. - I'm gonna have a little
bit of fun with you and ask you some lightning
around questions. But before I do that, I know there's gonna be
a lot of people that go, "Okay, Dr. Tim Elmore. I'm writing this down. I hadn't heard of him before, I'm getting Habitudes, I know that." What else do you offer
that could be valuable for our community to help
them grow in their leadership? - Yeah, that's very kind to ask. Well, like you, I want so
much to add value to leaders. I think I picked that up working
for Maxwell for 20 years. I would say the assessment on this topic today might be really fun. It's free, so people can just go to a site and take the assessment. We call it, watch this, we call it the GQ. So it's your generational quotient. But it's gonna help a person who takes this 41 question assessment, understand how fluent they
are connecting with Gen Z, with millennials, with
Gen X-ers, with boomers. And then it even, there's a
report at the end that says, "Here's how well you do with
each of these generations based on the type." And then it even gives you some tips. You might wanna do this more often, you might wanna do that more often. - How do they find that? Because I'm thinking they
might find men's fashion if they look. - (laughs) That's true, yes. So simply go to newdiversitybook.com, and you don't have to get the book, but you can find the assessment there as well as the book and
all the bonus features. newdiversitybook.com will get you there and get you the assessment. - Love it. So let's dive into some
fun quick questions. Favorite leadership quote
from Dr. Tim Elmore? - Mm, wow. You know, the one that I've
been camping out on recently is, "The further out I
can see into the future, the better the decision I make today." I don't think that's new, but it's just been relevant for me and some of our planning right now. It's hard to see out into
the future right now. We just don't know what the world's gonna be doing in five years. But I know long-term thinking
beats short-term thinking, high road beats low road every time, big picture beats little
picture every time. So that would be my quote. - That is powerful. And unfortunately, I feel like
I can't make very good plans 'cause I can't see too far right now. (Tim laughs) It's really hard
- It's hard. - to see what's coming, isn't it? It really is.
- Yeah. - Here's a question I've
never asked anybody before, but I'm looking forward
to seeing what you say, if you're with a leader that you respect and you can only ask
that leader one question, what would you ask that leader? - Wow. There's a bunch of things come to my mind, but the first one I think
is how do you keep growing? Because if they're a really
good leader, one that I admire, they're probably ahead of me. And I wonder, have they stopped? And they probably haven't 'cause that's why I wanna read after them and listen to them and watch them. So how do you keep growing? I know that... You and I both believe
that reader are leaders and leaders are people
that are continue to grow. So that would probably be my
$64,000 question for them. - I think that's a great question. Biggest leadership pet peeve? - Oh, for me, it's people
that say they'll do something and then they don't come through. That just, that's probably
not exclusive to me. I hate poor customer service when I'm in a store or a restaurant. If you say you're gonna
do it, you make me a deal. I'm gonna give you all
the money I promised and you gimme all the
service you promised. So I probably sound like
your grandpa right now, but. - No, you actually do.
(Tim laughs) And I'm laughing because
your body language and your intensity was so intense
that I really believe you. Sounds like going... You kind of scared me when I could see you on
the screen saying that. Like I totally believe you. So, hey, just for fun,
Bethany, your daughter, lived with our family and she was was delight.
- Yeah, and she loved it by the way. - Our kids loved her. It was really, really
fun to basically invest in one another's kids is
a really special thing. What's her favorite
thing about you, her dad? - You know, I called her and
I asked her this question, because you and I had texted. You said, "I may ask you this question." So here's what she said. She said, "Well, growing up dad, it was the fun that you
brought to our home." Which I think that was good. I wish it was something else, but she felt like I made our fun. And I did. Her mother is so detailed and so perfect. Her mother is Mary Poppins,
you know what I'm saying? So I felt like I needed to be Burt, you know, the one that's adding some fun. But then, you know, Craig, what she said? She said, "Now dad, I think it's because I
feel unconditional love and acceptance for the
decisions I'm making now." And she's not making every decision the way I would've made it. I wish I could teach her and equip and disciple and everything else, but I'm glad she feels that. And I told her that. I said, "I'm glad you feel. We absolutely love you, whatever you do." And do you mind if, I
know we need to stop, but one of the things I
talk about in the book, 12 Huge Mistakes Parents Could Avoid, we tried to avoid this, I think every parent that cares about their children builds a fence, a metaphorical fence, around
their kids to protect them, to guide them, to keep
them within boundaries. As that child grows older, they must tear down those parents' fences and build their own fences. Now every mom and dad hopes to God that that fence is
really close to the fence that they had growing up, you know? And if you happen to be a person of faith, you can mix up your fence
with God's fence, you know? God never said be in at 10:00 PM. He just didn't, you know? So I talked to my kids
about that at 18 years old and I said, you need to... And I know tear down
fence sounds horrible, but what I meant was,
there's nothing more pitiful than a person that's 40
years old still going back and asking mom what to do. You need to build your own,
you get your own compass, and I want you to get a good one. So I feel like that's important
for us to love our children as adults along the way, yeah. - That's really wise advice. You've written over 30
books, is that correct? - Yes, 30. This is number 38, believe it or not, so. - That's amazing. So almost 40 books. So excluding the ones we've talked about, if you would recommend
one book of all of yours, one other book to our audience, what would be most helpful to help them grow in their leadership? - Last year I did a book
that I really was proud of, and I don't mean that in a horrible way, but I just felt like it was timely. It was called Eight Paradoxes
of Great Leadership. I think people today are
just in a different place and we do need to read
them before we lead them, but I talk about the paradox
of them needing confidence from us, but humility from us. And sometimes those
are mutually exclusive. I think leaders need to
leverage their vision and their blind spots. I talk to leaders all the time that said, "Thank God I didn't know that. I would've never, you know." Look at you, you did all kinds of things that were brand new in
the world that you're in. And yet thank God you did 'em, you know? You didn't watch what
other people were doing. So anyway, I found
eight of these paradoxes and I found a case study for each one. I feel like that might be, if someone's just struggling to lead well, I feel like Practicing Paradoxes may be part of the
answer of going forward. - So I have not read that book yet, but I taught on Competing
Extremes, similar. I looked at your list. I had 14, you had 8, I narrowed
it down to less than that. We had one that overlapped
and it was your first one. My first one was Humility and Confidence.
- And Confidence. Yeah, yeah. - Have you found any new
ones that along the way, kind of a new Paradox in Leadership, that's interesting to you? (Tim laughs) - I have. And now Craig, I'm racking my brain to think of what they were. I should have written 'em down. But it seems like after you
do a book, it's in this tree. You say, "Oh, I should
have put that in the book. Should have put that in the book." - That's why I asked it, 'cause you always come across new stuff. - Yeah, that's right, yeah. - No, I look forward to reading. I need to read that one. But that's a great idea. And is there something that's coming up in the near future that
you're looking forward to? - Yeah, I'm gonna be speaking at Live2Lead on October 7th that I'm
pretty excited about. I dunno if that's gonna be
after this broadcast podcast will come out. But it's gonna be a great line up. Pat Lencioni and John Maxwell and others. And I feel like I'm the one guy that should not be on the stage. But it's gonna be a great, great day that I'm really looking forward to the simulcast around the world. And hopefully talking
about this very subject, how do we connect with
the different generations and bring out the very best in them? So should be fun. - Well I wanna thank
you again for your book and your work and your friendship. And the title of the book
again is A New Diversity. I'm gonna just show it to
the people that are listing. And this book is available anywhere and it'll help you to
really create a culture where the generations
can work better together in your workplace. Dr. Elmore, thank you so
much for your investment in leaders over the years. In our staff, you've made
such a big difference in different ways. And again, I'd say to our
audience that if this is helpful, please share like crazy. Tag Dr. Elmore, and
he'll be happy to repost, as well as our team. And we'll work hard to
bring more valuable content that'll help you. We'll also attach additional
information in the leader guide if you go to
life.church/leadershippodcast, we'll send that to you on each episode. I hope your event goes great. I hope Bethany's boyfriend is a good one. Sounds like he is. - (laughs) yeah. - And I look forward to
connecting with you again and just appreciate you so much. Thanks for being on. - Craig, I love being with you. I love being with you every time I'm on. So thanks for having me, appreciate it. - Hey, you bet. And to our community, hey,
go out there lead strong because we know that everyone wins when the leader gets better. (upbeat music)
