(gentle music) - Pat, man, it's great to have you back. Welcome to the Craig
Groeschel Leadership Podcast. - It's great to be here and, you know, that you said that we're good
friends, and we really are. You know, I mean, 'cause
sometimes people say, "You know, I talk to this person," but I really feel like
we are good friends, and every time I get to be
with you, it's just a blast. - Thank you, well, to even to say that, is very meaningful to me. And this was kind of a real, I hope this doesn't come
across like bragging, but it was a real personal blessing to me. You just released the 20th anniversary of your "New York Time" bestselling book, "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team," right? That came out just months ago last year. - Yeah.
- So that book, 20 years ago, was a formative book in my leadership. We took our whole team through it. And that was the beginning of kind of the Pat
training at Life.Church. And we've gone through every
single one of your books, and so that book really shaped me. And then, it was a real,
real, real blessing to me that you asked me to endorse
your 20th anniversary book. And so to see my endorsement on a book that 20 years ago really
shaped my leadership was an incredibly rewarding
and humbling experience to help others know a
book that shaped my life. And, like I said, you have been probably in the top three leadership mentors to me, and so I'm incredibly grateful. - So there's two above me? - I would say top three, and I'm not gonna list them
in order, because I don't, it's kind of like I've
got three best friends, and they're all best friends, right? - I was really psyched that
you would endorse that, so it was an honor for me too, really. - Every single one of your
books, everyone should read them. But let's dive in and I wanna ask you just a few general questions, and then we're gonna get to your book, "The 6 Types of Working Geniuses." But the last time we talked, the world was changing rapidly, and I think you'd probably agree that the workplace is really,
really different today than it was a few years ago?
- Truly, yeah. - I'd love to know from
your perspective, Pat, what are you seeing? What are some of the new challenges that we need to be aware of, and how are you changing
your thought processes on and how we should
attack things as leaders? - You know, I talked about this, I think, on a podcast recently and that
is that it's almost as though there's a renewal of what I
would call transactional work. There are plenty of people
now in the workforce who don't actually interact
with their colleagues very much, whether they're working from
home or they're just doing. There's something that's
happened in society where there's actually a lot of people who have almost no relationship
expectations at work, which to me is a tragedy. But to them they don't
really see it that way 'cause a lot of 'em have
never known anything. We're raising up a new
generation of people who see work as just something
they do off and on their own, and that they don't really have connection to the organization or
to the other people. And then, of course, there's, what I would call, relational work, which I think all work
should be relational, but five years ago, this
wasn't even a question. Now I talked to so many
people who have redefined work or who have grown up in their
last five years thinking that, you know, "It's really
not about knowing people and an interaction with them, and love," I think love should be
at the heart of all this. So it's an interesting time. If you'd told me 20 years
ago that in the year 2023, a lot of people would
have zero expectations for human interaction,
I'd have been shocked. And it doesn't question the
five dysfunctions of a team and the other stuff we do, it just means there's
some people out there that don't even have
access to those things. - Mhmm, so it's interesting, Pat, I worked with a performance psychologist. I was kind of interviewing him
on this subject and he said, "That people right now,
they're intentionally, their goal is to pursue
kind of a work-life culture that is counterproductive to their mental, emotional, physical,
and spiritual health." And essentially what it
is, is it's a work culture, some people, that there's
no accountability, like you said, there's
no human interaction. It's, "Work when I want
to, from where I want to, how I want to, wear what I want to." And although that actually sounds really, really fun, in many ways, he was arguing, and quite convincingly, that that is counterproductive. That even when you work with
people that you don't like, there's a healthy dynamic that goes on and your culture starts to self-select. Meaning you either are part of the culture or you don't stay around. And when you work from home
and you're disconnected, you create your own culture, and so when you come back, there's no common shared culture, no warmth, no love, no relationships. And I think we need to work to bring back the human connectedness. And what would you suggest, how are you, I know you're passionate about it, how are you coaching
leaders to lead in a culture that's resisting what
might be most important? - Well, what we're suggesting
is that companies declare that they are a relational
company and that it matters. And I'm actually suggesting that those that don't believe in that, declare that, so that people can, with
their eyes wide open, go to work for a transactional company and know that's what this is. What I don't want is
for that kind of culture to become kind of default
or even accidental. Because I think the competitive advantage of a relational culture is great, but right now companies are kind of, like, trying to play in between
and it's deviating toward just transactional. And so when you were talking, I was just thinking about the
idea of a commute came up. I think most people
justify this in saying, "Well, I don't have to
do a commute to work, so that's why it's worth it." And I talk to people who
say, "Yeah, this job." I say, "Are you gonna be
able to go into the office?" They go, "I hope not." I'm like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Well, I just don't
wanna have to take the bus or drive to work." And I think that the comfort
of avoiding a commute is so small compared to
the loss of interaction and the human needs that we
have that God put in our heart, I think it's a terrible trade off, but I think that comfort and convenience is trumping truth and personal growth. So I think that your guest was right on, what he said. - I wanna let that sink in. You said comfort and convenience are trumping truth and growth.
- Yeah. You know what's interesting? I learned something in the last few years, Solzhenitsyn, I don't
know how to say his name. There was a book written
called "Live Not by Lies," I don't know if he wrote it or if it was about him and stuff. But the Soviets took over Eastern Europe, not with a gun, but by denying people comforts
and conveniences, and said, "Well, hey, if you wanna
go to this kind of event, or if you wanna have
this, you wanna have that, then you better buy
into what we're doing." And it's amazing how
powerful people's desire for comfort and conveniences, and how they'll give up really, really good and important
things in the pursuit of that, and at the end of it, they're left empty. So it's an interesting thing. You know, the devil is
not always very dramatic. Sometimes he just goes after, "Wouldn't you rather
sleep in a little longer? Wouldn't you rather not
have to go to that meeting and see that person
that's kind of annoying?" It's like, "Well, yeah, but not at the expense
of my soul's happiness." - Yes, yeah, well, I just wanna wrap back because you said it, and
then you kind of kept going, but I really like the idea, you said that, "I think companies,
organizations, should declare that we are a relational company," or, and there's no right
or wrong way to do this, "or the opposite, we're
a transactional company," and I think that's really, really fair. Because right now I think there are some that wanna be relational, but they're functioning as transactional at the expense of their
people or vice versa, and so I like the clarity. In fact, Pat, we're
doing this with our team. We have what we call
Operational All-Staff. It's one of the two times a
year we bring in all 44 sites, and all of our people,
and gather together. And we're going back to
just really the basics of talking about what
we expect, what matters. And I think clarity of purpose and values, I think it really, really,
really matters right now. And I love the idea of
just being that clear. Like, we are a relational company. If you wanna go somewhere else where you don't have
to have accountability, and intimacy, and hard conversations, and, you know, some of the
downsides that go with that, then there are other places to go. But if you're gonna be here,
this is who we're gonna be. So I like that idea a lot.
- Cool. Yeah, and I think there
might be a reshuffling, you know?
- Yes. - People might go, "Oh, okay,
now that we're being clear," some people will migrate
over to the relational ones, some people might migrate over
to the transactional ones, but at least it would be intentional and with their eyes open.
- Yes, I think that's healthy, wouldn't you agree sometimes?
- Yeah, absolutely. - Yes, yes, so I wanna ask you a question. This is a side note, and then we're gonna get into your book. So my team asked me to recommend some of my favorite leadership books, and we narrowed it down to 44. You hold the record of the
most books by one author. So you made it on there three times. What I'd like to know is, and this is kind of
even a selfish question, how do you approach learning? When you've always got a very
unique approach to leadership, do you start with the problem? Do you start by observing? What is it that generates
your creative thoughts about leadership that so
many other people miss? Where do you start in your mind? - Yeah, and I love the question, 'cause sometimes you answer like, "I don't know, I've never
thought about that." But mine is completely observing
and experiencing things, and often it's my own pain or my own angst about what I'm seeing, and then the idea comes. So I never sit down and go, "You know, the next book we
write has to be about this. I wonder what my perspective
on that would be?" It would be something I've gone through, or my company's gone through, our clients, I'm working through or
gone through, and I go, "Wow, look at this." And I say this, what I'm
about to say, very sincerely, but it always, and it's hard to say this, because the idea that this
would be a trite thing or that I didn't mean it would
be so painfully cheesy to me. But God gives us everything, you know? Bragging is crazy 'cause
God gives us gifts, and they're gifts, so we get
to use them or deny them. But I think that he has just
given me gifts and insights around things that seem
like they're important, and I think, "Wow, maybe I
should do something about that." So "The Working Genius," my last book, I was so aware of the fact
that that came out of nowhere and that I wasn't really completely driving the bus on that one, and I was like, "Oh, thank you God, that you made this so abundantly clear that this was just a
gift you put in my lap." And, again, I don't say that insincerely. That would be so gross
for somebody to say that. But I'm profoundly aware
of the fact that he said, "Yeah, I'm gonna give you things, you're gonna be a vessel to put
things out there for people, and you should be happy about that, but don't think it makes you important." - No, that's what I like, 'cause a lot of times
we talk about your ideas before they're actually books, and so I think you're just a-- - Right!
- You're just a student of what's working, not working. And then, I'd just like
to hear in your mind, can you tell me, because it seemed like, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like you
were following a path that you didn't pave in this book, and you discovered the six
different types of geniuses. First of all, kind of tell us, give us an overview of what they are, and then if you can too, how did you come across these
when for years no one else has really kind of looked
at it the way you did? - Well, and it's just
because I'm so smart. I mean, it's not at all. And that's why I say that
God just kind of said, "Hey, you can do this now. I wanna show you something really simple." And, you know, one thing
about all my books, Craig, and I like what you said, you guys were already thinking
about it before I wrote it, they're all simple. And I think that I'm
kind of looking at things that might be more complicated
than they need to be, and trying to make it simple for people to understand and apply. But, in this case, I think explaining the origin of "The Working
Genius" is worth doing. - Yes.
- Okay. So I just realized one day at work, this had been going on for 20 years, that I love my job, and
the people I work with, and what I do, but darned
it if I wasn't grumpy often when I came to work. And I would come excited, I would never leave the
house in the morning grumpy. I would never be like,
"Oh no, it's Sunday night, I have to go to work tomorrow,"
I love coming to work. And then, I would be like,
"Why am I so cantankerous?" You know, and this went on for 20 years. And, finally, right after
we came back from Covid and we were doing a lot on Zoom, I was in a session where I
had three meetings in a row, and I went from really
excited, to kind of frustrated, to really excited again. And one of my colleagues, Amy, said, "Why are you like that?" And she didn't mean it
like in a critical way. And I was like, "I don't know, but I've gotta figure this out. This has been going on for too long." And four hours later, we emerged with, 'cause I had a whiteboard and a pen, a blank whiteboard, which
is my favorite thing, and these six circles came up. I thought, "Why do I get grumpy?" "Well, what kind of work am
I doing when I get grumpy? And what kind of work am
I doing when I'm not?" And then, I came up and suddenly there were these six circles on the board of the six different kinds of work that are required in every
project or every activity. And that's what "Working Genius" was, there's six kinds of work,
and two of them I loved, they made me happy, I
could do 'em forever, I could do it for 12 hours
and go home with energy. Two of them on the other end were if I had to do it for two hours, I would go home and go,
"Oh, it was a terrible day." And then, two were in the
middle where I could do 'em, I didn't love 'em, but I could handle it. And so that's kind of where it came, and it was just me trying
to explain my own angst, not me trying to come up
with a model for the world. But within days and
weeks, people were like, "Oh, wow, this is universal,
this applies to me." People would be in tears going, "I finally know why I love my job, or I know why I hate my job, or why my wife and I have conflict." Or, "Why I thought I was a bad pastor, but I'm not a bad pastor." There were so many
stories and we were like, "Yeah, this has to turn
into something real." - Well, I know there
are people like driving and listening right now,
or running, on the podcast, and are like, "Tell us now!"
- Okay, okay. - What are the six
different types of geniuses? - Craig, I'm just not
comfortable sharing it for free on a podcast. I'm just teasing, I wasn't holding back. Okay, so here's the first genius, is wonder, the Genius of Wonder. And my wife, this is her
genius, one of her two. And it's where she gets joy and energy, that's what a genius is. And wonder, most people
that have this as a genius have never been acknowledged
that it's a genius. In fact, many of them have been told, "Why are you still doing that? Why do you ask so many questions? Why are you always pondering
things and wondering out loud?" And it's a genius, and it's the first genius
on almost anything. Somebody has to say, "Maybe there should be a
different kind of church. Maybe there's a better way to do this. Maybe our customers aren't that happy. Maybe we could rethink this." Somebody has to say that
and put that out there in order to get the ball rolling. And so wonder is an
absolute God-given genius. And there are human beings, Craig, that do this every day
for long periods of time and it gives them great joy. My wife had no idea that her ability to stare out the window, and ask questions, and ponder things, was a gift that was required
in the working world and in every part of life. She thought she was impractical. So wonder is the first genius, and it starts up there
at like 50,000 feet, head in the clouds. - So before you go onto the second one, I just kind of wanna
interrupt you and say, I can almost imagine there
are people right now saying, "That's me, and I felt
devalued for a long time." And in the workplace, if we
don't have someone like that, we're not likely to get better, we're not likely to make changes. But what's interesting is, do those people, like your wife, those that have wonder, do they come across as
threatening sometimes because they're always asking questions? - Well, see, because we didn't understand these different things
and that it was required, for people with different geniuses, they found it threatening
or like frustrating because it was somebody asking a question when they were like, "No,
no, no, let's just do this. Can't you just get in the boat and row?" But it's like, "I don't know, could there be a waterfall over there? Are we gonna row right off that waterfall? Maybe we need to think about this." And so sometimes you
attribute that to like, "Oh, you're not bought in
or you don't trust me." And so now that we know
that these are real, I had the CFO of a multi-billion
dollar technical company, once they saw their
team's working genius say, "This is why we're behind,
and we have been for 10 years. Nobody around here wonders, nobody asks questions, nobody ponders. And until somebody on this
team starts doing that, we're screwed."
- Yep. Yeah, I can almost imagine, you know, people right now in meetings having shut down people with wonder and inadvertently really
cut off the possibility of growth and expansion. And, so yeah, I think it's
really, really, really important. And as we look at these types, I'm guessing that you also
talk about you really need to have the different types of people and different types of work
going on to really be effective. - Wasn't it a beautiful thing God made us to need each other? He didn't give anybody
more than two geniuses. - Yep.
- And so the idea that you can not only be
comfortable with people who have different ones, but celebrate them and thank
them for completing you. Right?
- That's good. - It's like you can think
about what you've done at the church, and if
you look back, you'd say, "If I hadn't had other people
with other geniuses than mine, this would've never worked." - Right, yeah, 100%. And until you start embracing
that, sometimes, you know, someone with a different type of genius, they can kind of get on your nerves. But you have to be able to
tolerate what's different in order to celebrate what's effective, and I think this is beautiful. You talked about that one, and I'd love to spend hours on it, but can you give us the second one? - The second one is the
Genius of Invention. So somebody wonders and asks the question, and then there's people, I'm one of these, who wakes up every morning saying, "Oh, please let me come
up with a new idea." Please let me, I can't help but do this. I'm at my best and I'm happy
when you pose a problem, and I have to come up with
an idea out of nowhere. Original thinking, you know, really thinking about how
we can do something novel, and new, and innovative
to solve that problem. Now here's the thing,
Craig, I love to do that, and some conversations, some situations, don't call for that. So there are times when
people need to say, which my wife does, "I
don't need your I right now, your invention, I just need
you to do this for me." And it's okay to say to
a wonderer sometimes, "Hey, I love your wondering, but we're not in the W
phase of the work anymore, so I appreciate when you did
that then, but right now..." So it's not like we get
to just show up at work and do what we do all the time, but they're all so important. And there are plenty of places in my work I get to be an inventor, and those are my favorite days. So wonder leads to invention, and those first two are
where ideation happens, but that's not where it stops. After invention, we need
to get to the next genius, which is discernment. So I can come up with an idea, but somebody has to actually evaluate whether it's a good idea. And people with the Genius of Discernment, I love this genius, is they have gut feel
that's just extraordinary. They have instinct and intuition. They see patterns and they
see how things connect. And these are the kind of people you go talk to and you ask them
their thoughts on something, and far, far, far more times
than not, they're right on. And you say, "How did you know?" And they're like, it's not expertise, it's not experience, it's not data. There's just people that God
gave an amazing intuition to. One of them is in our office, I love to talk about Tracy in my office. She was one of the
founders of the company. Tracy, when I'm talking to
my wife, Laura, at home, and I say, "Should we refinance our home? Or where should we go on vacation? Or what do you think we
should do about this?" Oftentimes, she'll just say,
"Have you asked Tracy yet?" And it's not because she's
an expert on home refinance, or vacation, or anything else, it's because Tracy has
really good judgment. And Tracy said when she was a little kid, her girlfriends would say, "Ask Tracy." And so it's a gift God gives people. And people with discernment want to be trusted and consulted. And they often will take that idea that somebody has and they'll
say, "That's a great idea." Or, "Hey, I don't think
that's a great idea." Or, "I think you need to
tweak it a little bit more." And so the inventor and the
discerner work together, Tracy is my book editor. So I'll write a chapter
and she'll read it and go, "Hey, that one, that character
doesn't work for me." And I don't even go like, "Prove it." I'm like, "If you think that, then I'm rewriting that chapter." - That's so valuable. And in any organization when
you have people like that, I love that there's some people, it's almost like "The Matrix." They can take different
ideas from different places, and then bring 'em into
kind of a concise conclusion and help see why something will work. It's a special gift. - And I know there's a
neuroscience in there, but it's impossible to trace
linearly, you know what I mean? But there are people who can just look at 12 different variables
and go, "It's that." And you go, "Why?" And they go, "I don't know." And then, you do the research and you go, "How did you get that right?" And it's like they just
see things differently. So it's not magic, but it's just a different
way of thinking and coming to things, and it's a gift.
- It is. And so that would be one of mine. And so, you know, Pat, we have 44 different church locations, and I can walk into one of 'em and just ask a few questions,
hear a few conversations, and it's like the three
biggest opportunities and three biggest
challenges just shout at me. It's just super, super clear. I don't how it happens, but it is a gift.
- It is a gift. - And once we get through them, I'm gonna ask you how do
we determine what ours are? But let's get through 'em first. And then, I want you to help us figure out how our listening, our
leadership community, will know what their gifts would be. So we've got wonder, we've got invention, we've got discernment, what's next? - And we're slowly getting
closer to the ground. You know, we start with
our head in the clouds, and we invent, we discern. Then we're getting a little
closer to the ground, and the next one is galvanizing, the G. And that is there are people who are born, they love to wake up in the
morning and rally the troops, and rally 'em again, and remind people, and get 'em moving, and excite them, and inspire them, and sell to them, and they naturally have this in them. And, Craig, we discovered this model because I'm not that person, but I was doing it every day in my job 'cause they thought, "Well,
you're the president, you're the guy in charge." And I'd come to work ready to I and D, and then I'd constantly find
myself pushing the ball uphill. And that was what was making me grumpy, it was burning me out. And I wasn't terrible at
it, but I didn't like it. It didn't feed me. So there are people in the world who love to galvanize others. One of them works for me, and I made him the chief
galvanizing officer of our company. And he said, "But I'm
kind of young for that, and I haven't been here
as long as you guys have." And we said, "It doesn't matter. It's your genius, we want you to do it." - Love it, love it, yeah. - So galvanizing is a genius.
- Okay, and you got two more. - The next one is the
one that people often don't understand is a genius
too, and it totally is. It's called enablement, the
good kind of enablement, enabling others to realize their
dreams and get things done. People with the gift of enablement are the ones that when
somebody says, "I need help," they go, "Yes, what do you need? I can't wait to help you." And as a follower of Jesus,
it's hard for me to admit that this is one of my frustrations. When my wife says, "I
need your help, Pat." I don't go, "Oh, great, great, great!" I'm kind of like going,
"Ooh, what is it gonna be?" And if it's one of the things
I'm good at, I love it, but there are other people
that are just ready to help on your terms in any way you need them, that's where they get joy and energy. And when they wake up in the morning, if they know people are
gonna be calling them and asking them for help, they're like, "This is gonna be a great day." And there are pastors who
don't have this, Craig. I've talked to pastors who go, "I feel really bad," I say, "Why?" And he goes, "I don't really
don't like counseling people. And they come and ask me for
advice and they need my help, sometimes I feel like I just don't wanna, I wanna solve their problem, but I don't just wanna sit
there and listen to them, and encourage them, and affirm them." And it's like, "Yeah, that's
not one of your gifts." And they're like, "But
I'd love to write a homily and a sermon, and I
love to inspire people!" And it's like, "Yeah, nobody,
save Jesus, has all of these." And so a lot of pastors have said, "I felt guilty for years
for not having that." And it's like, "Yeah,
you can't have 'em all." - Yeah, well, one thing I
learned too about that type, because I'm not that either,
I'm not a good helper, and I also find it
difficult to ask for help, but if you're asking an enabler to help, that's one of the greatest compliments that brings them great joy, and they feel valued
the more that they add. And so I think that's important for those of us that don't have that, to rob them of their contribution is really selfish on our part, and holds the team back from doing what we could do together. - That's such a great point, Craig. One man's trash is another man's treasure and one person's joy. And we go, since it's hard for us, "I don't wanna burden them." And it's like, "No, you're
not actually burdening them, you're setting them free to
use the gift God gave them to change other people's
lives, including yours." That's not selfish, that's a gift. - No, and what I learned, I've got a few people around me like that that are just amazing, that the more that I give
them, the more joy they have, and it feels counterintuitive,
but it's true. - Now, they wanna be appreciated though. - 100%, yes. - But not in an ostentatious way. They just love when you come by and go, "You made a real difference for me. I can't tell you how
much I appreciate that." And they're like, that is
the currency they want. - Yes, yes, yes.
- Whereas an inventor loves when people go, "Wow, that's a really inspiring
an innovative idea." You know, everybody has different
wants from their geniuses. - Yeah, and so your number six, the final one on the ground is what? - It's one I have none
of, it's called tenacity. And it's one thing to
enable somebody and help, it's another thing to say, "I'm gonna push this
through, I'm gonna finish." People with tenacity have dogged pursuit of crossing things off the list, accomplishing the goal,
meeting the target, meeting the number on time
and saying, "Yes, we did it!" And they're the kind of
people that are unhappy if they don't see something finished. Which is, I mean, of course,
I like to see things finished, but I don't wanna be the
one to have to do it. When I write a book, I get about halfway through it
and I start to lose interest. So people with more
tenacity than me have to go, "Pat, get back in there. You gotta make the end as
good as the beginning." And I love that because it's easy for me to move on to the next shiny object. People with tenacity just really get joy and energy out of finishing things and accomplishing things.
- So let's try to put this on the bottom shelf for people, because I can imagine there
are a lot of people out there that feel the same
frustration that you do. They go to a job and some days they come home and they
say, "That was amazing." And other days they're like, "I don't wanna do this ever again." And so identifying, I think it's really, really important to know why
you're good at something, what you're passionate about, and then if you can do most days in your top genius or at
least a significant part, you're gonna be adding value
and you're gonna be fulfilled. How do we determine, I've
got a lot of people listening that say, "I wanna know
what my two would be," what advice do you have? What kind of tools do you
have to help them discover their working genius? - So we have an assessment, it's "The Working Genius" Assessment, and it takes 10 minutes
to 12 minutes to fill out. And we ask questions in a way that's gonna get right at this. And the face validity of
the results for people have been off the chart. People look at this and they go, "Oh my gosh, of course this is me." But we also tell them after
you look at those results, or they could go through the six things on their own and decide. But the assessment which
we priced, it's $25. And we want a person to give it to their junior in high school. You know, my wife and I discovered
what my son is, who's 16, and it's changing the
way we're parenting him. I had no idea he was a W, I. And so I understand why certain
things are hard for him, and I have more grace for him, and it's changed the way we do that. We want people to go out and say, "Hey, for a couple cups of coffee, you can figure out this
and set yourself free." And so if you take the assessment, the report comes back, it'll tell you what your combination is and it'll describe it, it'll give you a real confidence that you've hit the right one, and it will encourage you
to read the descriptions of the others just to make sure. So in 10 minutes, 12 minutes, you can get that report back immediately. And it's the speed to understanding that you got the right one
is fast and to applying it. I wanna tell a story, Craig. We had a guy, I believe
he was in a church, and he was going in for
his performance review and he hadn't been doing very well. He wasn't doing very well at all, and he knew it was gonna
be a little bit ugly. And good on that church for actually doing performance reviews and telling people the hard truth, too many churches don't do that. So he went in and he
did "The Working Genius" right before he went, and he looked at his results
and he said, "Well, crap." He went into the meeting and said, "Before we do my evaluation, can you guys look at my 'Working Genius'?" And his boss and the other guy
there looked at it and said, "Well, no wonder you're struggling." He said, "You're not doing
work that you're good at." They said, "We have a role over here that you'd be really good at." The guy wrote to us and said, "I got promoted instead of criticized, because they saw that I was
on the wrong seat on the bus and they could utilize
my God-given talents." Everybody should experience that. Everybody should experience that. - So we've got the book,
which is a great resource. How do they find the assessment tool? - Go to WorkingGenius.com. Working, there's two Gs in
there 'cause it ends with a G, and starts with, WorkingGenius.com, and it lays everything out. There's free resources,
there's ways to get certified. We've had people in churches
and other organizations get certified so they can do it for the people in their organization. There's all kinds of resources and things that people can do. - I think I read in my notes, you've taken about a
quarter of a million people through this, maybe more by now. - We're almost at a half a million now. - Almost at a half a million
people, that's amazing. And so I would say on a
side note, you mentioned, I think your son knowing what his were, what I found a lot of times
is what I learned at work really applies at home, and I think it... - Oh, Craig, my wife, it's a long story. My wife is a W, I, we didn't know that of
course until this came about. She's been raising kids at
home, which is not W-I work, it's a lot of T work, and
it's been frustrating. She's gonna come and develop this for families and couples. But one of the things we realized is most of what we do at home is work, whether we're planning a
vacation or organizing our home. And most of our arguments for years, between Laura and I, were because neither of
us had a genius in an area and somebody had to do the work, and neither of us were good at it, wanted to do it, and it drained us. And when we figured this out, we have now gone from
blame and frustration to grace and a little comedy. So when something doesn't get done, she and I have no T at all, so things will fall through the cracks. And we look at it now and go,
"Oh my gosh, we have no T. Can you believe we just
dropped that ball?" And though we have to try to fix it and we're trying to outsource things... We had a guy call us, Craig, this is the last story
about this, who said, "I thought my wife hated
me," and we said, "What?" And he would laugh and
he goes, "No, really, I kind of thought she did. I mean, I know she didn't hate me. But every time I would
come up with a dream, she would criticize it." He said, "On our anniversary,
we did 'Working Genius.' One of mine is invention,
one of hers is discernment. So she was loving me by giving
me feedback about my ideas, because she didn't want them to fail," and he thought she was
trying to crush his dreams. And he said, "That turned what had been a tense relationship, into an understanding
of our God-given gifts and how we love each other," it's crazy. - So you can give me direction here, I don't know if this is wonder, I don't know if I'm wondering
or if I'm inventing, but I'm wondering if you could do this for marriage counseling and I'm wondering if you
could do it for parenting? Or, am I inventing that you could do this? Or, maybe I'm discerning
that there's more to this than what you've already done? Like, I'm not sure what it is. - I think you're discerning,
I think you said, "Wait a second, Pat, there's more here." - Yeah, I think so. I would imagine too, like, we do just a whole
barrage of different tests when we're interviewing people, I would assume that
this is becoming a tool that a lot of people
are doing in interviews. - Yeah, you know what's good about this? It's about how you go
about getting work done. It's not your personality, it's not how you see the
world, it's not that. It's really about what kind
of work activities at home, in volunteer jobs, at church. And in the book, there's a
scene where he goes to church to volunteer and how they use it there. But this is about the very tasks that give you joy and energy, and the tasks that rob you of that. It's very specific, which I think is why people are running with it so fast, because it's not trying to be everything. It's about what do you do really well, and what crushes you to have to do? - This may seem obvious to you, but I can only imagine
someone listening to this and they might say, "Okay, I
have this particular genius, but I'm not getting to use it very often, and so I'm frustrated." What advice would you give to that person to go back to the office and say, "I have more in a
different area possibly?" How would a person suggest that, without sounding like they're
disgruntled, they're upset, they wanna bring more? Give us some advice. - Yeah, my advice is just to go share it. Just to go, "Hey, I learned
something about myself, and since you're my manager, I thought it'd be helpful
for you to understand it, 'cause I want to do the best
possible job for the company. I want to give and do more, I really do. And I realized that there's
some things I'm really good at, if there's any way I could
use those, I would love to." Most managers that are
even decent will say, "That would be great." And, by the way, what I'd
advise those people to do is to get their team to do it. And we have this thing
called the Team Map. And you look at it and it shows you like, "Hey, nobody on our team has this genius." Or, "Oh my gosh, we can move
this gal over to this job, and we can fill a gap
that we have on our team." And until you see it on the map, you don't really realize
where your gaps are, and where you have an abundant
source of different things. So it's definitely share
it with your manager. And unless they're a terrible manager, they're gonna find it
interesting and helpful. And if they're so terrible
where they say, "I don't care, you just have to do what
I'm asking you to do," that's probably a good provocation for looking for something else. - How incomplete would a team be without one of these geniuses? - Well, and it depends on
which one they're lacking. You know, if a team doesn't have W, they often keep trying to solve problems that nobody's actually said, "Maybe we're solving
the wrong problem here." If there's no T on the team, and we've seen teams that don't have T, nothing actually gets done, and people are constantly
looking at each other and saying, "Why didn't that project work well?" When a team doesn't have
anybody that galvanizes, people are like, "Why aren't we excited? We're doing such interesting
work and people like it. Why do we not get excited
about what we're doing here?" 'Cause nobody's coming along and reminding them and exciting them. So every one of these, if it's lacking, is gonna cause a unique potential problem. And it's so fun to watch
people borrow from one another. We had a CEO almost
fire his head of sales, who was this wonderful
woman who fit the culture, but when they had to
re-shift their strategy, she couldn't come up with a new strategy. They tried and he was gonna fire her. And then, they took "Working
Genius" and she goes, "I have no I, and nobody in sales has I. We're really good at
helping, we're Es and Ts." And so they found a guy
in marketing that had I. He came in three hours, invented a new strategy, and the CEO said, "I almost fired one of my best
performers 'cause I thought, 'Well, if she can't come
up with a new strategy, maybe she's not the right person.'" - Right, I'm afraid
that might happen a lot. I've seen it around here
that sometimes someone they really have passion, they have gifts, but they may not be exactly
suited for one place. And what is incredibly freeing to me, Pat, is to think about this, you are the CEO, you're the founder, you're
the president, you're the CEO, and yet you delegated
what many would consider to be the CEO role,
which is the galvanizing, you know, the rah-rah,
"Here's what we stand for, here's where we're going." And yet you recognize
because you don't have it, you're going to put
someone else in that role. And I can only imagine
there's a lot of people out there going, "I didn't
even realize I could do that." Right?
- Right. Well, I have CEOs who say,
"I don't have discernment. So when I have to make a decision, it's really tough for me to look at it." And they're like, "So I have
to find somebody on my team that has it and borrow their discernment," and say, "Hey, this is
what I think the data says. What is your gut telling you?" Every leader has to know what their gaps are and allow other people to fill it. Now, that doesn't mean I don't
have to galvanize sometimes. But I shouldn't be the chief galvanizer or else I'm gonna burn myself out and I'm not gonna be doing
the things I'm meant to do. - I wanna chase one little rabbit, because I think this could
be super helpful to someone. I'm gonna tell you what we do, and then you can comment on it. What we found, Pat, for example, we have 44 different campus pastors. And people always say, "What's the best personality
type, age group?" blah, blah. And the answer is, it
doesn't matter at all. If they have leadership instincts, they have to be relational. But they can be a coach,
they can be a cheerleader, they can be a driver, they
can be an administrator, it doesn't matter. But here's what we found, is that a personality type is often way more successful when they have the right person sitting next to them.
- Yes. - And it is so, so, so, so, so important. So if I've got someone that
is a great administrator, but is not very relational, we need to pair them with someone who is incredibly relational. And I am thinking right now, I can only imagine all of the
people listening right now that might have someone
who's very, very capable, but because they're
not paired with someone that has discernment or paired with someone that has tenacity, that they're underperforming. And so I would just suggest,
and you can comment on this, that when you're looking
at the working geniuses and you're looking at maybe a team member that has a lot going, but they're
not quite getting it done, it could be because they're not paired with or have the right
support around them, and I think that's really
the whole point of your book. But I've found that a great campus pastor is often great because of
the person next to them, not just because of their own greatness. - Exactly, and I would say this, we like to say is the only type that's not good to be a leader is a person that doesn't
know who they are, if they don't know their limitations. But this requires, first and foremost, humility, vulnerability, and enough security in themselves to say, "Hey, I suck at some things." And then, to find people
who compliment them and celebrate that person, not to feel threatened by them, but to actually build them up to say, "This person, this woman,
this man next to me is making, one plus one is five. And without them, it's nothing." So you're exactly right. It's wrong to profile based on, "Oh, we need everybody to be the same." But it is right for people to know what they are and fill in their gaps. - Okay, so I know some people
right now wanna be vulnerable and they're gonna wanna
say, "I'm not good here." In some cultures, you
almost can't do that. How do we change a culture that is lacking in
vulnerability, authenticity? How do we take one that's all show and break it down and say, "We actually can do way more if we can show up and be transparent, be vulnerable, show our
weaknesses," how do we do that? - Well, it has to start at the top. The leader has to say, "I
value genuine vulnerability. And I will demonstrate it. I will value it in the men and women who sit around the table with
me leading the organization. And I will go out there and I will talk about it and reward it. And when people do it, I will not support them being
punished for doing that." So that's what it takes. 'Cause they can say it all they want, but if it's not being
modeled from the top, it just doesn't stick. I've been learning that just
recently in the last few days in working with organizations, and seeing that the leader
not willing to do something, but wants his direct reports to do it. It's, like, they're never
gonna do it if you won't. - Yeah, and so I could almost imagine someone right now saying,
"Well, my leader won't do that." But here's what you can do,
you're leading something, so in your area you can model it there. - Well, and you know
something else, Craig? So when people say, "My
leader won't do it," sometimes just seeing their results is enough to make somebody go,
"Oh," it's like liberating. They can go, "Look at this,
you guys, I suck at this. It says right here, I suck at this. I can say that out loud
now 'cause this result, there's language for it." Whereas without that language
to come to work and say, "Yeah, I don't really like to have to inspire people every day." That sounds like, "What?" But it's like, "Oh no,
it's called galvanizing, and look right here, it's
not one of my geniuses." So sometimes just giving
them the structure allows them to be more vulnerable. Does that make sense?
- Yeah, no, 100%. It does, it does. And that right there is going to bring cascading benefits in the organization. It's gonna give us the ability
to give real and honest, real-time feedback, coaching. And without that, what was
the book you talked about, you said that you have to get naked? - "Getting Naked." - Oh, the whole book is
called "Getting Naked," yeah. And that was-- - Not necked, not necked, naked. - Well, where I'm from, it
might be naked, you know? Just learning to be
transparent and vulnerable in a professional organization, that was kind of a groundbreaking idea when you wrote that, for me. - Yeah, and again, there's
organizations that will say, "We don't want you to be that way," probably the transactional ones. And the relational ones will say, "We need you to be that way," because that's the only way
these relationships work. Hey, Craig, I haven't said one thing. The most fundamental benefit of this book is that people can stop feeling unnecessarily guilty about who they are. There are people that go through
their lives feeling like, "Well, I'm just lazy." It's like, no, you just
don't have tenacity. "I'm not smart," no, you
don't have invention. You're smart in other ways. "I'm just a pushover." No, you're an enabler and you help people. You know, "Oh, I'm impractical,"
no, you're a wonderer. To let go of that guilt and realize we are not meant to feel guilty for gifts God gave us, that's huge. The other thing is it helps
us avoid judging others because they don't fit
a mold that we think. So sometimes it's easy for
us to judge people and go, "Man, he's really smart,
but he never finishes, and I guess he just doesn't care." And then, you look at
this, he goes, "No, I care. It's just really hard for
me to do the last 10%." So when we can avoid
unnecessary judgment and guilt, boy, it sets people free.
- I love that. And then, it also gives
us a tremendous value for those who are different. And it helps us to see.
- Yes. - Yeah, I love that. It was really, really
freeing for me as a pastor, because we feel like if
we're not doing something, we're letting God down,
we're letting people down. But to recognize there are some things that I'm just never,
ever gonna be good at, but that also gives me
clarity on what I am good at. If you focus on those things, and then surround yourself
with other people, then that's when it gets special. And, again, I'm heavily biased to the relational end of leadership. Why would we wanna be transactional if we can't enjoy doing it with people? This is what it, to me, is all about. - I agree.
- Yeah. So let's have a little bit of fun, and then I'm gonna tell 'em
more about how to get your book. On the lightning round, I'm gonna just throw
some questions at you. Do you have a favorite leadership
quote that comes to mind? - I love the Samuel
Johnson quote that said, "People need to be reminded more than they need to be instructed." - Mm, mhmm. - I'm just so amazed
at like how many times I need to be reminded. You know, Jesus reminded people
again, and again, and again. - You came up with the CRO, right? The chief reminding officer,
I think that was you. - Yep.
- Yep. - The chief reminding officer.
- The chief reminding officer. I love that. - Yeah, so I think that's a simple, it's not a very inspirational one, but I think it's
something I like to quote. So that wasn't very impressive,
but I think it helps. - Incredibly important. So you're like always on the go, go, go, go, go, go, go. What's your favorite
thing to do to recharge? - Watch movies with my wife.
- Excellent. - And movies that we can talk about. And I think that it allows me to escape, and because I have some ADD, and when I get lost in a story, I like to read books too. But I like to do something with my wife. And when we watch movies
that we both enjoy, it's like I'm in a great place. - So, like I said, you are one of the leaders
that's most impacted me. I'm doing this, and you didn't ask me to, but your book, "The Advantage," to me, is just kind of like the
"Bible" on leadership. You've helped me so much. I'm curious, Pat, who's a leader that you look up to or you've learned from that maybe impacted your
thought process the most? - You know, I met Alan Mulally years ago, who turned Ford around, and what I loved about Alan was that he was like very relational, like, very comfortable confronting
people and doing things. And here he turned Ford
around and you think he would've done it through finance, and through technology,
and all this stuff, but it was all interpersonal stuff. And he was such a good
leader, but he was so humble. When I met him, he pulled
out "The Advantage." And he opened it and
there were scribblings and Post-it notes everywhere. And he said, "Pat, your book
is how I turned Ford around. I didn't read it. But after I left, I read this and I said, 'This is it, this is how I did it.'" And he was so humble to say that. And what he did there was ridiculous. I mean, he took a company
that was about to die, didn't take money from the
government, changed the culture. So he would be one of them. Gosh, who else? Probably this pastor I
met once in Oklahoma. He played college tennis. I can't remember his name, it's spelled kind of funny.
- Yeah, he's hard to find. - I enjoy spending time with you, Craig. - Hey, thank you, man, you as well. Let me bait you, and I hope you give me an answer that I like, but
I'll give you free reign, but there is one answer I'll
like more than the other ones. Is there an event that
you're speaking at this year that you're most excited about? - Yeah, I'm coming to Willow Creek for the summit this summer. - Come on, The Global
Leadership Summit this summer. - The Global Leadership Summit. - First week of August.
- And I love going there. That is the party. So I'm gonna be there this
year and I can't wait. I've been a number of times
over the past 22 years, and it's just so much fun
to see who's gonna be there, and the audience is always so hungry. And the first time I went to one of those was one of the biggest
moments of my career. I did not know that
there were so many people interested in leadership,
and principal, and faith, and I think that was a real change for me. - Well, I think that's how
we got to know each other. It was through the summit. You've been one of the most
consistent faculty members, and one of the people that made the biggest difference through the summit. And I do wanna just talk about it 'cause this event is near
and dear to my heart. I'll be doing the opening talk this year, and then I was super excited
that you said yes to come. And it's in the first week of August, and we broadcast to hundreds
of sites around the US, also digitally, or they can
join us live in Chicago. But I did a little work
behind the scenes, Pat, and I got a discount through The Global Leadership
Summit that's in honor of you. If anybody'd like to go, we'll put information in the Leader Guide. But they can use the code
PL for Patrick Lencioni. PLGLS, for Global Leadership Summit, 23, for 2023, so PL--
- Oh, I thought the 23 was, 'cause that was my uniform number in basketball in high school.
- That's exactly why. I made a mistake, I thought
it was because it was 2023, but it was because of your uniform. So it's PLGLS23. And we'll put information
in the Leader Guide, and I'd love for them to join us there. You mentioned Laura, your wife. What's one thing you do
that drives her crazy? What makes her like, just
say, "Why'd I marry this guy?" - Oh, I talk and I'm intense, I'm idea. She's like, "Enough, enough, I need to be alone."
- I believe it. - I remember we went to Europe once, and we'd sit in the train and I go, "Oh, look at that church over there! Oh my gosh, that mountain! Oh, this is beautiful!" And she'd be like, "Could you
just be quiet for awhile?" - Final question, if there's one thing, when it's all said and done, my dad went to heaven last week. - Praise God.
- And so I'm aware that life is fleeting. But when it's all said and done, if there's one thing that people remember Patrick Lencioni by, what would that be? - You know, that I really
wanted others to grow, and that I was willing to love them hard in order to help them grow. I'm not a perfect man by any stretch. But I really do wanna see others become the best they can be. And sometimes I push 'em
outta their comfort zone, and then later they say, "Oh,
I'm so glad you did that." In the moment, it can be kind of hard. But I want them to think, to believe, and to know that I
wanted the best for them. - Well, you've done that
for me and so many others. And I just wanna thank you
for your investment in leaders and your friendship personally. Hey, to our YouTube community,
before we wrap this thing up, I wanna give you a chance
to win a copy of Pat's book, "The 6 Types of Working Geniuses," and also a chance to win my new book that comes out on
February the 14th called, "The Power to Change: Mastering the Habits That Matter Most." What we're gonna do is
we're gonna give away five copies of Pat's book. And to enter, all you have
to do is leave a comment that says, "I wanna be a working genius." Just type that in the comment section and we'll pick five of those. And then, my new book
comes out in February. And if you wanna go back
to the last episode, we talked about mastering
the habits that matter most. If you'd like to try to
win a copy of this book, even before it comes out, you can comment in that one,
"I want the power to change." And then, we're gonna post the winners of all these books on the next episode. Also, I've got a free gift, if you're interested in
pre-ordering a copy of my book, "The Power to Change." What I did is I created a
four-part video workshop. Honestly, it was kinda
like personal coaching where I coached some different leaders, and it will honestly feel
kinda like I'm coaching you. If you'd like free early access to that, there's information in the Leader Guide. Simply pre-order a book, and then you go and do what it says, and then you can immediately
download the videos, and I promise you
they'll be really helpful to your leadership. In the next episode, we're gonna talk about the eight habits that matter most for leaders. It's maybe my favorite episode
I've recorded in a long time. I can't wait to share it with you. And I wanna say a big thank you to those of you who are inviting others to be a part of our community. Share it, take this, subscribe on YouTube, send it to other people you
think it would be helpful, and grow in your leadership. Also, you will want to
get the Leader Guide. We've got all the
additional content on Pat, and it will tell you how to
get the free early access to the coaching session
for "The Power to Change," go to life.church/leadershippodcast. And thank you for your investment to grow in your leadership. Let's continue to grow, because we know that everyone wins when the leader gets better. (upbeat music)
