Plague Doctor and Grave Robber - Skill Balance Discussion Part 1 | Darkest Dungeon 2

oh yeah okay I guess I'm hosting I forgot it's like the thing I should be doing let's talk about we're going to go through every character we're going talk about some of the skills the paths and random thoughts and this and that and something I've been trying to do not necessarily successfully but I've been trying to like think of passives for every character to have just because they're cool and Helen has a good one so be interesting if everyone had one with that said I know you're joking about this Ranger about noxious blast since we're talking about it first but what do you think about noxious blast so nox blast in my opinion has the the issue that the the dot damage on it is way too good for what you get out of it if you in fact the best comparison for noxious blast is bleed out on Helen bleed out on Helen hits from rank one into rank one with the same bleed as noxious blast me meanwhile noxious blast hits from from all the way from rank four which B rank four is the best position PD can be in because it's a spot that not a lot of attacks can reach on the other hand bleed out every time you hit it you get a gain a vended token so you're you're reducing your damage that you're hitting with Helen and you're reducing your speed by three every single time you're hitting it noxious blast doesn't do that all it is is just you hit it and if it sticks it's a lot of damage in fact i' I've actually calculated this and on the if you over over the course of three turns if you hit noxious blast compared to bleedout the only thing you're losing out on on on bleedout compared to noxious blast noxious blast does only uh I believe I think about two less damage on the minimum roll and and seven or something like that less damage on the maximum roll so noxious blast in a way is already way more consistent as a damage as a damage damaging move compared to bleedout so that's uh that's what I think about it a fair point and I think the I think like the concise version that I'll drop on that is really just it does too much damage right so in terms of that I mean even the crit rate's okay like Alchemist kind of pushes it to to new heights with the crit chance and the res piercing and stuff so I guess it goes without saying like probably lower the damage like the on hit Dam not on hit but the dot damage and then I guess do we I I kind of want a different combo effects how do you feel about that yeah the the resistance resistance piercing uh when Target combo is completely irrelevant considering that every single path in this game has more resistance piercing than the actual combo effect that's how that's how strong of a power creep the paths are in this game 100% like just as a preview all the resistance piercing stuff like Combos and paths and stuff like that I will be advocating to get rid of it and we're going to have to like hammer out some of the details on that but that's just a a preview there but okay let me see I'm trying to juggle like three windows at once and the game oh good this is not a professional live stream I I think I'm I think I'm about there hold [Music] up snake is asking what combo application would noxious have that's a honestly a good point I I what I think would be good is if on combo it increased the duration or the actual dot damage that you're hitting but then obviously you have the issue of still it doing too much damage if I would honestly reduce it I would reduce the the dot damage of noxious and then make the combo effect do more dot damage something similar to open vein mainly because open ve is honestly just such a bad move that it kind of needs the combo if to actually do something yeah and okay so I'm all all cut up now so for noxious specifically I was thinking the I I kind of want to move away from like straight damage and stuff and so the idea IID initially thought for noxious was the combo effect would be like minus two speed or something and then if you really want to make stuff more consistent when you master a lot of these dots skills give it like 10% dot chance and like that's it it doesn't need 33% it doesn't need 30 it doesn't need like 25 you know just something something small but still relevant I would be cool with that mainly because if you recall back when this game was already in like day one we were already saying that you know on upgrade or on Mastery rather it should be piercing at Le like 10% nothing it doesn't have to be you know 15 20 33 just 10 a flat 10% because at that point you're already uh you know negating the RNG of for example a a stupid I don't know a foot soldier with his 10 move speed or to 10 move res resisting your Damon spool for example you know that kind of stuff yeah um being asked here do you think comparing skill by skill is fair and DD I think it's way more important or way more than that at least we should be reviewing the whole kits we're going through the kits but I think you know for it it's really hard to like I don't know if that comment's implying I should Nerf like an entire kit or something but really it's something you have to in my opinion you have to go through like skill by skill to to whittle it down like there's no reason that noxious blast should be stronger than bleedout you know considering the limitations of bleed out like Rangers said and you know and resistance piercing all that is just really really really good and yeah things change with pth we're trying to make at least I'm I'm trying to make Wanderer decent enough on all characters that pths don't feel like an upgrade but that that has admittedly been very hard to uh to deal with and I'm just realizing now we spent like 5 minutes on noxious blast so we're going to be here for a bit at this rate no it's fine we can we can some of these skills are are in a worse spot than others yeah that's fair I was being told that minus two speed is not really worth a combo but honestly I don't know like it I don't want it to be damage you know I want it to be a control thing like maybe on Combo App plays weaken or something important to know the limits that are set by abilities just afraid go beyond that yeah that's fine I appreciate the uh the thing add blind on combo um for the dots specifically I was thinking maybe combo blight would blind like that that is a good idea and then like bleed would weak and or vulnerable and then no no no no it it'd be like fire blinds BL is maybe weakened and then bleeding is vulnerable something like that but all right moving on it's a blinding gas and the the immediate thing that I thought of is just remove the cool down on Mastery honestly yeah like this this skill just on its own is like already such a niche usage because first of all it like the the the 25% and 30% chance of combo applying is so unreliable that even if it does happen the the ranks that you're comboing are rank uh three and four which a lot of characters that utilize combo especially if they're melee based cannot reach that rank on the other hand like the double days is also pretty bad cuz you can't even you can't even argue that it's good for double days into stum setups because the ranks that you are hitting with blinding gas are three and four there's three characters in this game that can apply days without the need of a combo token and that is a PD with blinding gas manat arms with Rampart and also Leopard with bash n Rampart and Bash cannot hit rank three and four so you can't even argue that it's good for that and the blind uh I see no reason why this on upgrade shouldn't just give two blind base because blind is is such a like blind on its own is kind of unreliable unless you have Dodge on your character as well because then it's a 25% compared to a 50 you're rolling a coin toss and even then they can resist the Blind and then you just have nothing if they resist everything that blinding gas does you have effectively wasted your entire turn doing nothing and even the days cannot be argued that it's good for controlling the enemy especially when you have enemies that have free action such as drummer because drummer just completely ignores the days you can't use that as a control tool so other and in certain cases if the enemy in the back rank is fast due to like ordainment and hastened you could end up in a situation where you da the enemy and they get four turns back to back just because they're so fast so this can effectively even kill you in certain situations I mean that that is a good point I feel like it might be a bit rare for that specific situation but I think you bring up a a super good point with the the combo effect you know someone in stream was saying maybe make it 50% I mean that might be a bit too good but the the issue with it is or at least in my eyes with the combo is that rank four is like usually the quickest rank to disappear either you kill it directly or you kill something up front and then the corpse decays and four goes into three you know so blinding gas is only really getting strong value out of a couple like the first couple turns unless you're fighting a boss but even then you know bosses have multiple turns and a lot of other stuff going on so I don't know like do you do you think think that there needs to be any other change besides if you agree with the the no cool down like on Mastery what do you is there anything else that needs to change with it I mean um like I assume you mean just removing the cool down and keeping the the Double Days right yeah keeping everything as is like the the combo the percentage the one BL you could then you then you could end up in a situation where people would be like you know oh my God that would be way too strong because then you could Encore PD and get a double stun on the backline to which I say I don't honestly don't care because because I see no reason why in a Rog light you have to accept that some moves or some combination of characters will inherently be very strong so I see no reason why this why you shouldn't be able to do that in this game true and I think I think a part of that too is with encoring plague doctor and stuff you know like let's say virtuoso speed bonus just disappears and stuff like that then it's one of those things where you have to get the turns in the right order you have to get them as such that it makes value against the enemies and then you're sinking a very very very important move in Encore into a chance of stunning and the other thing I would say too with stuns is that a lot of enemies have decent stun resist base and then there and then impervious exist so in terms of like the balance they've really focused on trying to make stuns not only as weak as possible for the player but also very inefficient and in my eyes I feel like they a bit overdid it yeah I uh I agree with that mainly because like the double days into a stun is effectively a meme like I'm not I'm just going to say it outright it is just a complete meme yeah the best way to get the Double Days stun no joke is like dead ringer on a days character then just hope for the the 15% and also hitting the um the the stun chance and all that so yeah Punic just resubscribed for 19 months years the incision decision so incision uh is surprisingly the strongest bleed ability in the entire game if you're talking single Target which I didn't even know and the reason I didn't know is because I never pressed this button I I never ran anything other than Alchemist and the reason being that I don't understand why somehow they they managed to give PD the strongest blight move and then also the single best single Target bleed move support healer by the way yeah it's it's actually amazing how that managed to slip through somehow obviously you have the standard resist P like let me tell you on mastered unmastered incision does 12 to 15 damage if you count the raw plus the bleed with a with a 10% crit Chad 10% is higher than Jester has on slice off unmastered yeah that's weird too cuz I don't know how much you know dd1 but slice off in dd1 even though it was similar to harvest it had a massive crit rate so like that kind of made it appealing cuz dd1 was more crit focused but then we get these situations where you know we have like Take Aim on one character or incision here and then we have like slice off on someone else you know it's like how even if you're trying to think of it in terms of kits like how some of these make it through at times is a bit a bit questionable but also I kind of understand too because you know you have like 10 11 12 characters whatever it is everyone has 11 skills three paths besid bes besides wander so I can understand that it gets hard to keep the numbers consistent but incision really isn't a league of its own yeah it's very strange also I see I see uh Cactus asking isn't PD's damage output and utility balanced out by poor survivability no the reason being that PD is usually stuck into rank four unless if you're running surgeon sure you put her into rank three but usually she's in rank four and and there are any enemy that can actually hit rank four usually hits for very low damage or it's a kind of debuff for example flaming lasso in uh from the ulatus in the sprawl doesn't do too much on hit damage nor does it burn you that hard but it blinds you that's the debuff that it has yeah and rank four is even for the player it's like this game is extremely starved on hitting rank four damage which uh you know unless you bring ravage your heli in play Grenade again I guess you could also bring a cultist with roof spaghetti something like that acid Rin if you don't bring that you're going to struggle with a lot of the enemies because you cannot hit that specific Rank and usually that rank is reserved for like drummer or even the Bishops in the tangle very important enemies that you kind of want to kill definitely and it it's a good point too and there there are other mitigating factors like I I do agree that play doctor in a perfect world perfect game or whatever what's up BB are or she's balanced around the poor survivability like she can't generate Dodge block or whatever on her own the best she can do is blind stuff and Daz it and like weaken but like Ranger was saying we don't like the enemies don't have great ways to hit rank four like the whole game is very Frontline centered at the moment and then the other thing I would say too is that when we get to the tank characters we're going to talk about how problematic taunt is so between the ability to spam taunt on like half the cast items that give taunt trinkets that give taunt and stuff like that keeping plague doctor safe is very easy and even though Alchemist has minus HP chance or like not chance minus HP like Max HP it doesn't matter It ultimately doesn't matter the only time it really mattered was like if you're playing on Old stigen cuz she'd have like 16 HP but you know a lot of people were doing that and it's also gone now all right there's a rant I just I I just realized that we're at 23 minutes and we're not even through the first character it's fine I'll either we'll make this multiple streams might be multiple videos content yeah um but I mean some of these don't like you were saying don't require too much to talk about like Battlefield medicine the only thing I have for it is like lower the healing amount just because it's so efficient as a heal like removing a bunch of damage over time effects is already very proactive healing like you can straight up just heal essentially like 40 damage with this move so does it need to heal 25% on top I was thinking like 10% base and then 20% mastered yeah honestly like reducing the simply because the healing thr is so low the the heal that you get out of it is BAS it's basic it's it's unironically equivalent to just a flash hitting more more it is actually just that technically technically get just a tiny bit less because uh you know because it heals 20 and then more and more on upgrade it heals you what like 30 I think or is it I think it is 30 right 30% if you have all three tokens or oh vestel um oh no uh flaggland with hitting more more at base it's I think 30 for three and then upgrade I think it's 45 or three yeah so you're essentially healing very close to flagin Healing himself at more more on any character that you so choose the moment that they have uh dot on them and they're below 50% HP which is very easy to do simply because you like one crit gets you below 50% usually yeah true but uh do you have any other like balance suggestions for this or like I think it's okay with the three uses and stuff yeah I like I I think on I think reducing the healing healing is honestly the best choice because reducing if you reduce the healing threshold you end up in a vessel situation and that's that just feels bad to play like that's it's just really like hitting Grace feels bad to play like hitting Grace is just terrible and I don't want any every character to have that so I think keeping the threshold below 50% is fine but reduce the healing true all right couple questions um or a couple comments I should say what if the move only healed one dot I think it healing three is fine just to give it you know the utility but then the other thing I saw here was they don't need a DOT for the skill to work and that is true that is a great Point actually because you have Potter eyes for example that requires bleeding to activate and so this move can just be used as regular healing and three charges honestly is enough to get you through a lot of encounters like regular fights three is plenty boss fights three is usually enough unless you're screwing up or something like that so I definitely wouldn't mind if it required the dot to activate as well yeah ounce of prevention I actually think this is perfect I would not touch this see I had the uh my my idea for this like at one point was that maybe up the resistances up a little bit on base and mastered and make it a like you can only hit it once per battle but then you could end up with certain situations where I guess it could be a tiny bit too strong but obviously then I don't want this to end up being a situation where um where it was like early AIS answer prevention but it heals stress and that was the only that was the best stress healing move in the game because it had no threshold nothing yeah on the other hand uh I believe uh when I was talking with elock about this I think he mentioned something like that it could be like a stacking buff that you hit it for each battle and that it would keep for you for the region like stacking the resistance resistances on it but that'd be interesting but it feels a bit clunky yeah it might be like I have a feeling that like you could technically just stall the fight you know and then just increase the resistances to like 200% and you're completely Invincible yeah plus it would make some things like the the hopeful relationship that gives you know a bunch of resists it would it kind of make that irrelevant I think if PD's there yeah so either like either keep it as it is honestly and just don't touch it or make it a once per battle thing and it sticks for you for the whole battle Yeah I mean a ones per battle thing would be be interesting I don't know if we have any other skills that do that like we have uses but my my one fear about it being um once a battle is that it' be just too efficient you know it's like PD already has very efficient turns so it's like her having to Circle back and not heal or not blight something or debuff or whatever in order to hit this I think is pretty fair also ELO just corrected me that uh it was he actually mentioned that it was also once per battle but it remained for the fight which is which was basically my idea as well so I guess I'm just stupid then I seem to recall what he mentioned before but I I guess I just didn't yeah being asked what if Battlefield medicine gets nerfed make GS give resist and heal a bit per do cleanse three heals be too much it would be like we already have travel healing I I would like it if like in battle healing was was Nerf because if in battle healing is worse then the player has to engage with the game more by understanding turn orders understanding what the enemies can do and like applying debuffs instead like that that's just a me thing like I I think that would be more engaging than what we have now but yeah people saying 15% sounds too weak if you're you're thinking about it like that like if you hit ounce to block one resist it doesn't feel great but if you hit ounce in a fight where multiple things can happen like what is it uh like creature dens where you can get bleed blight and disease or against Cardinal there's all three dots like this this does have the potential to pick up a lot of value or in certain boss fights like librarian where it just burn every single turn then this actually gets really strong but you know if you're fighting one or two enemies that don't do any damage over time or disease or whatever then yeah it doesn't feel like enough in my opinion yeah all right it's play Grenade yeah uh I have a I have a lot to say about a play Grenade so a play Grenade biggest issue with this this move is probably this move is actually the PD equivalent of just hitting acid rain because I actually did the math on it and it is the exact same damage range play Grenade and acid rain have the same exact damage range on the two Targets that it can stick to and the fact is that if it does stick on both targets then this is just this move becomes completely busted it it becomes even stronger if you manage to uh go after the enemy vent and then next turn or next round you go before the enemy so you stack it twice on the enemy and they take both dot ticks at the same time because then essentially you're if the if the dots sticks then play Grenade does anywhere from 20 to 22 damage depending on the damage roles that you did unmastered on both targets and if you hit hit it twice then it just becomes 40 to 44 damage on two Targets and that is over the course of of three rounds right that's just like that is just way way too much it is and I the best comparison to play Grenade is if you look at poison dart because poison dart uh is me unupgraded and it's okay upgraded meanwhile you you can hit this every turn and you're just you're just you're just cleaving [ __ ] to death definitely accelerates the the damage issue and I think for uh Play Grenade it's it's one of the best Encore candidates because you know if you're able to it it doesn't matter if you're before or after the enemy just hitting them twice with this at any point like will destroy most back lines in three turns by itself like you hit this twice three and four are gone they're just deleted you don't even have to worry about them in a lot of cases so it's it's too efficient too strong and I personally think that the DOT damage or whatever should just go go lower and maybe zero crit like does this move need to crit either either either make it less damage or just keep the damage as is but make it only hit one rank I think I think that would be fine that's a bit weird to me I mean I'm not I'm not saying it's wrong but you know for me The Clash identity play Grenade has been hitting two Targets for like eight years you know so it'd feel weird if it wasn't I I understand that yeah also Hollow is saying it's necessary for this to be op because this opens so much comp diversity and that's a huge W in my opinion I disagree how how is how does play Grenade open comp diversity if you're just hitting play Grenade every turn like like am I am I not understanding that correctly like because if you if you bring like even Wanderer play Grenade is extremely good then you smack on Alchemist on top top of it and it just becomes it's just it's just a nuke you you hit that it's like a it's like a fire and forget type of missile honestly you hit this twice and then you can just focus on anybody else because you know that three and four are dead yeah and people are saying that Alchemist is the issue I mean we we'll get to Alchemist but I really do agree with Ranger that like this move on on his face just Baseline is way too strong and if we're doing other things like the the idea that mastered skills get 10% dot pen then it still gets that efficiency but otherwise it it just does too much damage you know like being able to hit it twice and do like 20 damage or whatever that that kills most enemies just outright you know unless they're sturdy or already have like high base HP or like a size to it takes them out and that's just very very good good but I'm going to move on to or maybe put it to put it to acid drain levels well no acid drain and play Grenade are the same damage they are like you might you think I'm joking but no it is the same damage what like overall because of the on hit cuz the the dots are down one the the dots are down one but if you if you count it with the uh like the on hit damage then it's the same damage makes sense or at least at least uh if like if because you have six damage like you have you have six dot over three turns times two you get 12 and then four so you're hitting 20 minimum damage play Grenade is uh also 12 * 2 24 and stuff like that okay if you if you like I'm I maybe maybe I did the the math wrong but I'm pretty sure that when I was counting this on like on hit plus the dot it came out at 20 to 22 on play Grenade and 20 to 22 on acid rain as well makes sense but like I said moving on of course I wouldn't mind I wouldn't mind seeing L do but oh yeah you know what I keep wanting to move on but in terms of like I guess play Grenade you know what what's what's the Nerf then cuz we talked about all the issues what's the Nerf before we uh jump ship I'm I'm seeing I'm seeing like cool down in the in in the in the in the chat a lot hly like the thing is I I guess that could help like like this is like the one rare case where a cooldown might actually be the fix to the issue on like what they were trying to do a Take Aim I don't know like like either I I would honestly give it a cool down and maybe decrease the dot by one make it like two and three yeah be good with that people asking where can we buffer we already talked about buffing blinding gas and we're going to Talk About emboldening Vapors which at least in my notes is getting a buff and it's a small one I think that just at base it shouldn't have a cool down like I age just I mean it it's already a decent damage tradeoff because you're not doing you know 20 point blights you're just someone you know unless you're stacking a bunch of tokens and stuff which is again you engaging with the game and planning ahead which is totally okay on average you know if you just throw this on some random person it's like an extra three to five damage and I think that's fine one thing that I don't really understand about this move is that at base it is literally command except technically worse command because it doesn't remove blind I would I wouldn't mind seeing this move like at base be like that it that like on base it removes weaken and then gives you strength and on upgrade it you could keep the speed token but make it remove weaken and WN and then give you those two tokens you mean days or oh no uh like make it so like on base uh if you have like let's say you have two vacon tokens on you so you hit embolden vapers on the target it first removes the weon and then gives you onean strength at base and then on upgrade it gives you uh it removes weaken and vuln from you and then gives you strength and speed I think that could be pretty interesting yeah I be fine with that but why why not have it removed days at that point cuz we don't have many days or stun cures right now that is true although I guess you could argue that the speed token is removing days because it cancels it out but no I know but if we're going so far as to remove weaken before applying strength then why not take yeah yeah yeah honestly that might actually be pretty might actually pretty good yeah I'd be okay with that all right see that one didn't take too long then we have disorienting blast which has has some some issues my my one fix that I would just give it honestly I know a lot of people say oh have it remove corpses and all that I just want the weaken to be 100% chance that's all I want yeah I I don't understand why that's not 100% if if if I I don't know if I if I get put into DDC jail for saying this but I would honestly just make this move stun on combo at base yeah like I don't see a reason why like why it shouldn't be doing that because here's the issue with with diso blast again it's the same issue that blinding gas has if you diso blast a rank two character and they get set into rank four dazed how how do how do you stun them at that point you just don't right you you took a character that was sitting comfortably in rank two ready to get double days into stun sends his his ass into rank four and now you can reach him so I see no reason why just shouldn't stun on combo base yeah I I could see that the one thing too that I feel like with this move is even if you do send someone from 2 to four or 4 to one which is and like dd1 that was the dream like you hit a cortier in four and it flies up to one or like a shaman but um I think in those situations it essentially kind of acts like a saw stun because if the enemy gets thrown to a position where they can't really do anything except like some kind of movement skill then you know they hit you for like three damage move forward move back or whatever and I I think that's okay in some instances but uh like imagine hitting hitting a vid with diso blast who's sitting in rank three you move her into rank one she hits you with don't look and moves back to and blinds you very very interactive isn't it as much as I dislike Widow I mean I don't that one I don't mind too much anything that's not desperate grab I'm fine I agree I I think M's fine the only thing that's pissing me off is just desperate grab that's the biggest issue honestly yeah is indiscriminate science probably that probably the most broken skill on this character TBH it's so powerful yeah it has no it has one it has a one turn cool down with no use limit so you can just Spam this the entire fight you run out of Battlefield mens Edison don't worry you can casually hear for like 200 hp if you have a m arms it's totally fine uh they tried to Nerf this uh on 1.0 by making the from 10% heal per negative token to 5% what they should have actually done is is limit the number of tokens you can destroy rather than the percentage Yeah like why couldn't it just be can destroy a maximum of two and a maximum of two negative tokens why couldn't why why couldn't it do that instead that that would have been a much better fix because at that point you the maximum you can heal is 40 and you and you can't choose which tokens get destroyed yeah uh for me personally you know I do agree with that like the the Nerf to the negative healing or the negative token healing honestly just isn't anything because the issue with this move is that the characters that usually need healing the most like Helen manad arms leper and even you know like Highway Man to an extent if he's in rank two the the issue is so many characters can just generate a a full stack of like three tokens at a time I'm being a bit hyperbolic they can generate so many many tokens at a time on themselves that are positive that you know if you get the turns in the order that you need them and all that then you can effectively heal someone for like 60% HP with like no effort and then it can CR like it it it requir like this move is very brainless in its application especially especially with manad arms you know dismas take a uh technically you had flag to an extent if you hit more more and then you just cleanse the the the the Taun token of him that also works anybody that can generate you know those kinds of tokens is just completely fine yeah so for this I was thinking something like you were saying you know adjust the healing so maybe it has a cap or like the token removal there's a cap and stuff totally on board with that and the other thing that I would uh you know like if the if all the healing and stuff gets nerfed what I actually want it to do more than anything is that they're like not under the thresh old have it remove tokens like I I wouldn't mind being able to hit this early to remove like two blind on someone you know cuz I I feel like token Clans is very hard to come by right now it is like it's usually just combat items and stuff yeah NB characters and abilities need to exist and this is it I don't even say it's a noob thing honestly like you get this no it can it's not a noob thing because you unlock this way way later in the shrine like this is like third Shrine I think um and you know it a lot of the effective like token generators well some of them are unlocked later like retribution and stuff and I don't think the I don't think most new players are going to understand like battle Tempo enough to understand that like oh we're going to have to wait a turn with plague doctor and then remove all these negatives at the end after like I use Take Aim or something like that so yeah I I don't think it's quite I don't think it's quite Noob friendly I mean plague doctor already Noob friendly enough as a character she's very easy to Pilot so you know this this is one of her more complex skills actually it's probably of our most complex skill outside of like cause of death so I I really don't you have to get into a mindset where you can understand like what tokens are necessary or what tokens are good to destroy early stuff like that yeah so um pause of death this one I honestly not going to lie I I don't really get why why it combos the target what I would do with this is something similar similar to like what Scourge flag has where if the target is comboed it doesn't remove the dots yeah and just remove the that it combos the Target on Mastery because at that point it's just you nonexistent that would be super powerful though too I feel like cuz when you start doing those Shenanigans especially with the mal addiction Buffs you know like you start doing those things where you have crit tokens and take Aim like Take Aim Comet shards for like 50 damage and Dot stuff like that this could scale monstrously that said I I honestly wouldn't necessarily mind if having something might have to like weaken the damage a bit but the one the one change I would consider cuz I actually think this move is pretty solid where it's at would be like on surgeon give it like execute one at Mastery I don't know that's still too strong cuz then you just do all that damage and kill him anyway or or you can I guess you could argue that you know you could also make it just keep it as is like don't don't do any you know on combo don't remove the D Shenanigans and just make it execute three on combo so you just in you just kill something immediately when you use it um I mean that would work it'd be really fun might be too good with execute 3 just because it it depends on the boss the team comps and stuff so maybe it wouldn't be as bad as I'm thinking and um I don't know like my fear is people being able to stack like 200 dot on like turn three and then just you know one shotting a mountain boss but it it would be pretty fun though you got to admit yeah cood only punishes slow bosses true you know bosses if you're not running malediction bosses that all right wait I am talking to you too I'm trying to make sure I'm hitting the right buttons but yeah so multi-action bosses do burn through damage over time quicker so this move gets worse like your execute three for example or even execute one would be like really good for General like that's it yeah moving on I guess mag rain honestly I wouldn't touch it a lot of people say do this or that like give it damage give it something else like if you added on hit damage that it would break the move because you'd ping all like the blocks and stuff like that already gets rid of Dodge I think it's fine I would I I would not touch this move at all like what would you do about it like the only thing you could argue is like even if you made it like for burn on upgrade in instead of three you're already pre like breaching the balance where just this move honestly owns runaways entire kid if you think yeah so I I would not tou this um okay I'm going to hop into paths and Jesus Christ almost one hour on plague doctor and a lot of people saying that like mag magarin is underestimated and stuff it's because you have play Grenade you have other moves you have so many moves you'd rather press that are stronger even though magra is really good so uh yeah that that's kind of why it seems underwhelming it's actually pretty good due to the the low burn R yes that too it's a good point so far as paths go I'll talk about Alchemist first but like Alchemist ideas are remove the res piercing obviously have like light moves gain crit versus blighted targets so it's not like you know just free tons of damage and stuff like that and then another thing for this would be like maybe dots uh not dots um blinding gas applies to Blind on Mastery something like that I'm not sure like it it needs some other drawback that I haven't figured out because I don't want paths to be direct upgrades but this is the with the old path system where even if I wanted to I can't like change the paths in a way that would make it so that it's in line with the old path system without me like making a lot of different tags and stuff like that and you know why it's I I've tried this once where I uh I wanted to create a new move for like you know a Shar shot dismas like just make shop shot in line with the old path system or not the old one the new one the game breaks because it doesn't understand that I'm trying to replace uh a previous skill but a new one that's the issue that I have right now if I could alter the paths themselves by change by making it change to specific skills I would do that but in order to do that I need I would have to use a plugin and uh um I'm lazy that's fine so with that in mind should I even talk about bs that's that's the thing like I think you already already know that like Alchemist is just way overtuned I don't like it has you you could take the blight causing skills crit and the resistances away just keep it minus 20% Max HP and just have the rest piercing and it's still the best path for for PD like the the the the last six lines of this path are irrelevant because you already have the rest piercing and that's the only important thing I mean that that begs the question again should I should I cover paths in this entire discussion or is it I don't know uh do do you think should we should we ask Chad do they do they even care I guess Chad do you want to see you want to see us talk about paths or not because in in the interest of time it would shave off a ton of time but you know if you guys want the content then we'll talk about it just the weak paths an I do honestly be good is cu like the the the XD paths like position yeah has a separate video that's also another thing be good milk that true look hey I'm just being honest okay all right all right okay we'll we'll make p a separate bit how about that sure it it will it will shave off a lot of time we spend one hour talking about PD so yeah I don't think uh well we'll do it chat we're just not going to do it here just in the interest of time but um I don't I don't think every character is going to be as as in depth and stuff it's just plague doctor is so overtuned that there's a lot of changes but like what I have for grave robber they're all minor I man honestly minor stuff until uh take game manat arms probably getting a redesign overall Ellen a lot of stuff's fine it it's just a couple outliers that are get talked about a lot um yeah so with grave robber my favorite character going to propose some Nerfs and Buffs but uh you just switch to wonder oh yeah yeah for she's got the the new system if you even can call it that yeah all right take to the face is actually pretty solid I just wish that on Mastery it just removed all block something like that does it not do that I thought it did IGN it are you sure I'm I'm 90% sure that they made it at one point that uh it also removes it if it ignores one or am I tripping might be tripping if it if it doesn't remove it then I would just honestly that that's what I would do yeah like just make it remove all blocks I don't see why it shouldn't but like I would make it if it doesn't then I would make it remove one block on on on base and then remove all block on mastered yeah at base it does it ignores it and then it takes one off cuz that's just like a a general mechanics change but Mastery specifically I would like it if it removed everything I thought it removed all oh I'm [ __ ] stupid then yeah in that in that case just make it remove all of it there I don't see why it shouldn't do that okay I would also honestly maybe buff the uh the minimum damage of pick simply just to make her damage a bit more consistent without without the need for a combo because she's a very combo hungry character in general yes and she has no way to apply it outside of like some very extreme methods though I mean with the block ignoring stuff with pick I I wouldn't change the damage too much maybe make the minimum five or uh five or six and then like lower the max I don't know but I I don't I don't want it go too far past what it's at yeah like I I would just make it like [Music] maybe 6 to 10 Max you know yeah I don't think it become better wicked slice because Wicked slice has execute and that's a much stronger mechanic in my opinion yeah execute is better right for throne dagger this one almost doesn't need a change it's it's surprisingly solid where it's at but I I wouldn't mind if the damage came up slightly that that might even be too good at that point but you know let's say the the damage went up tier so it's like four to six and then like 5 to eight or something like that I wouldn't mind seeing uh the damage go up like on base and actually Mastery maybe not yeah I I think I would keep Mastery like that but I would increase the The Throne dagger minimum damage to like four to five even just just just so it's a little bit more consistent and damaging and on upgrade I wouldn't mind seeing it that it also removes guard if it ignores it just just remove it entirely the issue with this move or with grave robber as a whole character right now is that she is balanced around the idea that she's going to crit and all of her damage follows that so she has like lower numbers across the board because you know she's supposed to hit combo targets and crit which is a nice it's a nice idea but then you get to highway man who has full damage on like everything and then take Aim so yeah it's it's a very and also uh hot take I think the crit V Target combo should just be 100% I agree honestly I honestly agree and yes it assumes crit and that she's also in or common and she's also in stealth like that that's a lot of setup to no joke that's a ton of setup to hit for what's that going to crit for like 11 like 11 or 10 just no it's so bad if you like every like most a lot of enemies in this game already have 100% crit chance on combo when the target is comboed spiders uh on spit have just actually no on every attack have a I think actually no it's just it's just spit has 100% crit chance on combo vur with obliterate body has 100% crit chance on combo so why can't the player also have this honestly yeah this is just another case where the monsters are like far stronger than players in a lot of cases and um in my opinion makes for a bit of a frustrating experience yeah other than that I think this uh this Mo like once you do that I think this move would actually be pretty solid yeah how do you feel about flashing daggers so flashing um unironically runner for one of the worst moves in the entire game um at least it has something going for it though which I guess is the that it pings off tokens on two characters plus it PS off blind and such because although blind hits you harder because uh Cleaves roll their uh chance only onceth instead of twice like it works on com on Dodge but here's what I would do for it this this might be a bit of a massive hot TI but I think this move if you hit it you then get another turn where you can hit only flashing daggers again no that that's honestly that's that's a better way of doing it but I was going to go the same direction like the only thing I would change to it is make it hit twice and I think the way you're proposing it is probably more an easier way to code that so I I think we're on the same page for that yeah I think that would be pretty damn cool if you ask me it would be I mean you'd effectively double its damage or whatever but like I mean maybe I don't want to say lower the damage if it hits twice because like the first hit eats your tokens the second one doesn't stuff like that it runs into its own issues but it would really it would really emphasize like the flavor of the move like she's just really good at throwing accurate knives very quickly so being able to throw four in succession I think would just be very thematic also somebody in chat says wouldn't wouldn't it be kind of strong with do trinkets it's a Rog light to be fair you have to understand in a Rog light sometimes what you find ends up making the character that you're using just busted and if we're if we're on if if we want to be on the same page which uh I don't know who said it but saying that some moves need to be op then and uh I think it's completely fine what about Venom Drop what's again like why shouldn't it why shouldn't why should it change you can I guess you can lower the on hit damage from minom drop if you want to go that route but like I see no reason why this character shouldn't have something that is cool but at the same time pretty powerful because once you if you were to make this hit twice like there's no guarantee that it sticks you can if you want you could also make uh make with Venom Drop you could make it hit once which applies the dot and then the second one would not apply the dot if you want to go that route as well like I see again like why why shouldn't why shouldn't there be something like that that just breaks it you know I think it would be cool it's a good point and I I understand um INF fenta still agrees which is awesome we love agreeing Echo chamber Etc I'm kidding but in terms of like certain balance things like Ranger hit the point you know it's like the game if the game wants to Market itself as a Rog light it has to understand that certain combinations which are not always guaranteed will break the game and that it's it should be okay with that you know like if I find cruel intent and I have consistent comen there's there's no reason I shouldn't be able to just Crush stuff with leper going going forward you know there there're always going to be obscure combinations that will make you super powerful and that's what makes uh runs memorable you know be like I remember that one time like that you know I got this trinket on this character and one of the ones that stands out to me is back before the stealth Nerfs I got I think uh old uh covert cloak which was like 66% chance of sth or something like that or like 40 I can't remember but I got that on runaway and then I soloed the actu boss essentially with her because she couldn't get hit that got nerfed but like that was cool that that stands out to me you know forever I will remember that run for as long as I remember dd2 yeah all right uh poison darts like 15 15 minutes about a move that hits two Targets but no effect yeah it's all right though you ever get don't find chance true poison darts that's okay so I actually think that this move on its own is fine I would again just make it you know 100% crit on combo in in just Universal but I would also honestly like I don't know why this this scal is very strangely like it goes from two dot to four dot instead of like what other moves do which is like three Dot and then four dot I would I would honestly just make it three do on base honestly like I don't think it would be that strong I I don't think it would either you're you're hitting only one person with 5% git in in at base but no combo so I I've seen I don't think it's I don't think it would be like broken or anything I would just up the up the the dot to three yeah I agree especially cuz you know three base dot puts it honestly in line with firefly which is a good move but not a broken move by any aspect you know just you get a little more flexibility on targeting and that's a nice strength for it but you have like like you were saying a surprisingly low amount of crit for the character that's supposed to be the crit character as we can see here on the descriptor High crit by the way 5% yeah it's it's pretty fun you know what's hilarious Highway man has Wicket slice 20% crit on upgrade that's the funniest aspect of this whole thing God I don't see crit his his tags anyway plus anyways yeah I I think that's about what I had it was either it was either lower the blight on the top end like the Mastery to three or buff it and I think I think the issue that sticks out to me too we're not talking about paths but like poison dart will with dead eyee like dead ey is supposed to be I throw knives and stuff like that poison art is actually better than Throne dagger on dead eyee just because Throne dagger is bad so you know if we can buff that and change some stuff then cool thing that I should also mention the reason uh certain paths make like are much better than everything else is a lot of people don't know the how damage rounds in this game because in in dd1 the damage rounded down against you and it rounded up against the enemies if I I recall correctly healing always rounded up on the but on the other hand in this game if your if the decimal point of a move or damage HP whatever ends in a number from 0.1 to4 it will always round down and if it's 0.5 to .9 it will always round up it's Universal rounding and that also causes a lot of issues because for example if you have the healing thr shold on Grace for example which is 25% the 25% HP of your character might round down and you have to go one H one tick or one HP level below that threshold so it can it's it can it works actively against and for you because certain high damage moves round up better because of this so that's uh something that needs to be kept in mind with why poison D becomes better than Throne dagger when you put on Dead Eye there you go great point all right absent honestly fine wouldn't touch it yeah I agree I I would not touch this this is this is perfectly ideal yeah now dead of Knight I actually might advocate for a Nerf and that would be to lower the healing amount to 33 like at both levels because upgrading this and getting minus stress and two stealth is really good like do you need to heal half your HP for that I don't think so I agree I think 30 I think I would make it honestly I would make it 25 base and 33 on upgrade okay ha really a good point too it shouldn't heal instead give you loot that'd be really fun honestly hit a corse get some Rel yeah yeah just take off the healing I I'm okay with like the the stealth and the stress healing but getting loot that would be fun that would be fun like I would honestly I wouldn't mind seeing that that would be super fun yeah let's see glint find a random cultist trinket on a zombie yep so for glint this move is actually really good now so like especially with Dead Eye the only thing I would change with it is it's labeled as a range move but it hits like a melee so I'd rather it either be classified as melee or make it usable from four to hit four instead of one for like each each thing you know like if she can go into rank four and glint rank four but not one you know I'd be I'd be fine with that yeah I would honestly switch the the ranks like the the ranks that you can throw and that you can hit like it's very similar to like head shot in The Collector fight where dismus can shoot you from two to three and can hit one through four which is very funny yep so I would just switch the rank ranking rank on this is the execute for death door Shields yes other other than that I think this move is perfectly fine as it is now it's it actually became stronger with the death foror yeah it it really did it it really did exq moves are very strong at this uh this current states so I mean if if she could generate combo or crit on her own this would be insane like being able to execute three in stealth and hit for like 12 plus be very very strong so I think it's prettyy close to good lunge I'm a huge huge lunge lover L lunge Advocate I think it's fine right now uh when I was testing out the moves I was playing I I tried both Wanderer and knsw lunge nights war is obviously a lot better but um I I I honestly think that this is completely fine like just ignoring the Dodge on when you're stealth and then ignoring block block and Dodge when you're stealed it it allows you a lot of it allows a lot of interactivity because a lot of enemies generate these tokens especially if you like if you take into consideration foot soldiers into the tangle like if you have a mash with three foot soldiers and a drummer that just keeps spamming defensive formation and gives everybody block plus this move becomes extremely good yeah and honestly I would also give lung the 100% crit on combo you could definitely could um yeah people are saying that it doesn't have the combo effect but like it's got very high base crit 30 is a lot yeah like like 30 like a lot of the times when I've hit it I've just hit the crit naturally even without anything else like i' M like honestly giving it the 100% crit on combo could actually be pretty maybe a bit too strong because then know with with 11 you're hitting like you're critting for like what like like 16 at that point I think so yeah so so it's go ahead I I I wouldn't uh make a d g robber I disagree no like I think like okay think about this you you laun into rank one you're now dealed so you just get crit by a trophic cut to death's door and die like I don't know if that necessarily would consistently happen I'm just trying to like argue you know with with the with like uh extremes here but that is a possibility yeah um and plus to be fair like why should it D stealth like you're you're hitting you're if you have two stealth tokens and you're hitting something and then you can if you're running kns warn you can then pick to the face something for the extra damage because you're still stealthed or even better something that I discovered is if you oncore grave robber while she's in stealth she still gets the damage buff but she doesn't lose the stealth after her Encore turn so you can technically get three turns of stealth reliably with that and again I think that's really cool it is as far as um stuff with stealth also someone mentioned you know bonus crit and stealth I think if we gave every hero a passive like this isn't something I got to cuz uh I didn't have one written for PD but for grave robber if she got a passive it would be something like plus 25% damage and stealth like just move the night sworn thing to her you know as as like a base thing and so that makes stealth a bit more desirable than it currently is like it's worth the setup in some cases but like I I don't want to attach it specifically to the shadow fade CU that's Shadow fade does need some help but like if if she had that new passive where she just gets bonus damage and sell Shadow fade would kind of be fixed in the process in my opinion yeah Vex yeah you can see the passives if you go to your the character page and then conditions you have the passes written there yeah and also chance to start combat or turn on in stealth yeah I like that that's fine pass over all pass all pass like on my very very old gr rework like Early Access rework I just made her start combat and stuff go all right try's best aspect is that she has massive survival ability I I'm am going to have to disagree with that one a little bit honestly stop getting one guy by chat man stop you don't have to argue with all of it all right okay we're moving on P okay cool skill um hey I the only thing I do with proo is just remove the the self days but I yeah like the the days is way too punishing I I get it you know it's it's a p so you get dizzy because you spin but um why like it it doesn't like it doesn't do too much it has a two turn cool down you get one token for it for your troubles yeah the other thing too is I don't it doesn't need the days at all like it's it's it's honestly just a spit in the facee it is and it's really weird cuz she's supposed to be a high-s spe character and then like you kind of take that away from her but then also um like I know I know the Thematic argument is always a weird one to bring up but like she's supposed to be very agile and very dextrous you know that that that's her so like she would be used to spinning around you know she's very used to Jumping between spots on the battlefield and stuff and throwing Precision moves like why why why does she need to to Da like why do she get Dodge and then da like it's so weird because just what I'm thinking about it's like yeah I did this really cool move and it gave me Dodge but also I'm so dizzy I can't stand straight it's just weird to me I say if anything it would be it's actually pretty funny you you'd think it would these two like pirette and absent the days and speed should switch like you would think that that would be a bit more thematic in that sense it yeah definitely but honestly like sometimes you just have to here's the thing sometimes you have to get rid of yeah you know this istic you have to just get rid of that mindset sometimes and think is this fun for the player yes because if it's not fun for the player it doesn't matter if it's the most perfectly thematic thing imaginable the player will not want to use it this is something that very similar to FF yeah this is something that happens in like the tabletop RPG space it's called the rule of cool it's like sometimes you just throw logic or mechanics out the window if it's cool and fun to do yeah and then you and then you get a and then you spawn in thing from the stars and call it a day I hope I never see that thing in this game honestly so with uh with rep party it's actually a pretty good move on its own the only thing I would change is just remove the steth requirement because it takes so long to get this move going and if you if you're REM removing the requirement then I would probably give it like honestly even maybe a a t cool down you it yeah definitely don't make it like the stealth is supposed to be the the soft cool down you know it's like oh if I I have to set up my stealth move every turn to use this but like yeah if it lost the trigger then sure of course it should get like a one or two turn cool down for sure yeah taunt op we'll we'll talk about taunt a little bit um but yeah after we get to Shadow fade I am going to take a couple minute break start stretching and stuff so Shadow fade if she gets like a passive where she does bonus damage in stealth I think that fixes Shadow fade like by proxy it kind of does honestly because the the but they keep they kept trying to change Shadow fate to be better but the speed at base or no sorry the speed on Mastery when it was still one stealth was extremely like anti- Synergy with yourself because you you you use a turn to stealth yourself then you luned for example now you have now you're out of stealth and you're just vulnerable to every single attack every dot everything because of the speed token you go you went first it was extremely anti- Synergy what what it really should have have been was uh strength instead of speed but if you give her the passive that she has the 25% damage and stealth then this fixes that because it's basically just a you know strength minus essentially it would be and then that is a good point though the the speed token so like if um if that ended up happening you know we'd have to figure out a a different kind of upgrade so I mean giving it some other bonus token like Dodge I don't know something like that but uh yeah DD dd1 Shadow fade was about it it was supposed to be you switch like you essentially switch all your damage to the turn after but this game it isn't quite that way in someone saying Shadow F should give mobilized tokens so he can't hit twice in the row if the player wants to put in the work to make uh a multiple lunge team I think they should be able to do that personally yeah mainly because get setting up double lunge you you have to put a dancer into the middle two dancers essentially if you count grave robber as one so you're making your middle line which is a ranks which is ranks that a lot of enemies can hit very efficiently and very hard you're you're risking them being just squishy back squishy middle line that gets hit by everything so I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that all right so how do we buff this cuz I didn't I didn't consider it needing a buff if we you know change like if we remove the speed token so like what would the Mastery version be of this at that point that's a good question if if the bassive let's I'll take it out of like on a vacuum if the bassive didn't exist and it was just as it is then I wouldn't mind seeing base give strength and then on Mastery it would be strength with a chance for a crit token okay something something similar to what ballad has on upgrade not to mention that ballad is a terrible move on its own but uh I think I think that would be uh good like don't make it too high don't make it like you know 75% chance of a of a crit token like this is Sproul trinkets or something just make it like like 15 20 maybe 25 at the veryx 20 25 Max maybe all right we're going to get on to Highway Man everyone's favorites but before then I I said I'm going to take a quick break thanks everyone for being here thank you Ranger as always for spending some time with us and I'm going to smother you with ads right be right back

Channel: ShuffleFM

Views: 9,733

Keywords: games, twitch, darkest dungeon, darkest dungeon 2, darkest dungeon 2 gameplay, darkest dungeon gameplay, let's play darkest dungeon, darkest dungeon 2 guide, hellion, plague doctor, highwayman, jester, darkest dungeon 2 release date, leper, man at arms, runaway, occultist, grave robber, darkest dungeon 2 trailer, darkest dungeon 2 review, darkest dungeon 2 changes, let's play darkest dungeon 2, lets play darkest dungeon 2023, darkest dungeon ii, darkest dungeon 2 tips

Id: JXRU5z749DQ

Length: 73min 38sec (4418 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 31 2023