Patristics: The Fathers Of The Church (Discovering Orthodox Christianity)

hello and welcome to discovering Orthodox Christianity on Stacy Spanos your host for the series of programs designed to explain the basic teachings of Orthodox Christianity we're honored to be filming at the Holy Cross chapel on the campus of Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox school of theology in Boston so in today's program we'll discuss patristic s' the Fathers of the Church our guests today are Reverend dr. John Kris August's Archdeacon of the ecumenical throne and special advisor to the ecumenical office of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America welcome thank you and dr. James GAD Rose Cantona's professor for Byzantine studies and professor of early Christianity and Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox school of theology thank you both for being here father John let me begin with you a lot of Orthodox Christians have never heard the word patristic s' what is it what does it mean well you explained it in your introduction the Fathers of the Church the from the Greek word party era Father in the Greek tradition it's normally referred to as petrology and that spells out more clearly what it's all about it's the study of the church fathers it's learning about the literature the liturgy the lives of the saints men and women in the early church and through the ages why are they so important to Orthodox Christians if we have Jesus if we have the Apostles why are they important I will because much like life life in the church doesn't come with an instruction book and some people have worked out how to navigate their way through the church and I think the Church Fathers do precisely that they are the ones who have written about life in the church have formulated the doctrines have lived at lives of sanctity they are the ones who as a hymn on the sunday of the Church Fathers it says make plain for everyone the mystery of theology the mystery that some Paul says was hidden from all ages and that's the mystery of God become human in Jesus Christ but it's the church fathers that are the ones who alert us to the places of oases and the places where there are pitfalls in the life of the church dr. Sanders has the church enumerated how many father's there are how did they come to be declared fathers of the church not really there's not a specific number of fathers of the church and usually the father the church start as early as the 2nd century with saints like Ignatius of Antioch who was a Bishop of Antioch we have seven of his letters that he wrote to churches in the area in Asia Minor that have come down to us today and lay out some really fundamental understanding of church organization and and of the authority of people within the church either Piscopo see or even laypeople so there isn't really a number and it begins with really kind of the end of the New Testament period usually traditionally you might take it down to the eighth or ninth centuries but for Orthodox we take it even to the 21st century in some sense there are people in later Byzantine medieval Christianity and even post fall of Constantinople who wrote immensely and did exactly what father John said they laid a sort of a guide to how to live the Christian life and how to explain the Christian life to the context in which they lived and they can be fathers and mothers of the church too and I read a part of me father I think Jim said is very important because there's a sense of succession there from the second century right through to our days and so we have a sense of continuity like we have the apostolic succession in the bishops of the church we also have a kind of a doctrinal succession what we call tradition in our church and Jim mentioned that they've written letters and treatises and they've done even more than that more than just authors they are again as you said authorities authorities on Christian faith and paradigms of authenticity of Christian life that leads me to question though if their writings are so ancient obviously they were in different times from us are their writings relevant father I'm usually weary of the question whether their writings are relevant I think their writings actually speak to us if we're ready to hear them and make the change the conversion that they would demand of us the church fathers are those whose writings have been tested through the centuries and whose lives have been purified whose lives have been cleansed over the centuries and we are called to soak ourselves in the writings of the fathers and to go through the same stages that they went through so that we - as Jim said earlier in terms of 21st century church fathers if we are soaked in the writings of the fathers then we too can acquire what's called the mind of the fathers the sins of the fathers not just quote their texts not just do as some basil says theology as a play on words by quoting the father's but actually do theology the way they did dr. Skid Row's I read one quote pertaining to that and it said sometimes the voice of the past is the clearest guide for hearts and mind of men today outside of their culture would you agree with them yeah I would and as father John I think rightly just explained this this idea that you can write and I can write father John can write we can write things but if it's not within this context this mind this this life of the church this gift of the Holy Spirit then it can be simply words as st. basil said so so certainly without a doubt the past has something to teach us in part because time changes and we do you know we have this idea this idea of evolution and human evolution but I think 2,000 years ago human existence at least those fundamental questions of who I am what is my purpose in life those questions haven't changed and God's response to those questions is as relevant as it was 2,000 years ago in the fifth century as it is today and those men and women have pointed that out to us and that's why we try to require that mind and father's father John said father John name for us some of the fathers of the church and are there some who have influenced the Orthodox faith more than others well from the early centuries we have the Apostolic fathers st. Ignatius of Antioch we have the Nicene father's st. Gregory the theologian Singh Basil the Great we have the Byzantine fathers like st. photius the great we have the ascetic fathers or the Desert Fathers such as sin john climacus wasn't anthony the great we have the mystical fathers like st. simeon the new theologian in the 10th century st. gregory palamas in the 14th century we spoke earlier about acquiring this mind of the fathers and writing theology the way they did sin Gregory Palamas has a beautiful phrase where he says you can write theology in ink that's what I like to try and do and that's what most professors of theology do or you can write theology in blood with your own personal experience that's where I think the church fathers differ from us and if we can't write theology in blood we can at least send gregory palamas says trust those who've done that who have a personal experience of God a personal knowledge or any of the father's martyred yes martyrdom is in fact there are categories of fathers there are martyrs there are confessors and there are our teachers and so forth this is how I was taught theology in Athens many years ago but I think the tradition doesn't really make those distinctions the fathers of those who have come to know God directly from God what sin john climacus says their hearts have been inscribed by the hand of God and they can be martyrs they can be men they can be women they can be teachers they can be just authors Saint Nicolas Cavazos for instance we know very little about his life very little about his background we only know he wrote two bestsellers in the church basically in the 14th century and that's there's a sign there that even professors of theology could be saved well dr. Scott Rose who are some of the fathers who have influenced the church more than others sure so it's a father John just sort of went through this nice long presentation of historical periods so some of those really key fathers will be from the fourth century these Nicene fathers of father John mentioned Saint Athanasius of Alexandria the the Cappadocia and father's basil the great Gregory the theologian gregory of nyssa john chrysostom for sure these are names that most orthodox have heard many times before Maximus the Confessor is an example of someone we call him a confessor because he had his tongue cut out he had his right hand cut off because he challenged the prevailing theology of the time in the 6th century 7th century against the Imperial authorities in Constantinople so they didn't really put him to death but he dies in exile Chrysostom dies in exile as well so he's sort of a confessor in that sense John of Damascus would be another name that someone will put out there a saint in the 8th century who lived in Palestine and wrote not only did he write but he produced remarkable hymnography and prayers that we use today and like life of the church or any of these documents still in existence are they so ancient they have crumbled and disintegrated very much so we have them as manuscripts throughout the world in you know important libraries in museums in monasteries many monasteries on Mount Athos have a phenomenal collection of these manuscripts and then we've been very fortunate that in the last save four or five decades there's been a revival of interest in the literature in the liturgy in the lives of the early church fathers so that we have these documents accessible to us today accessible in critical editions that compare the very various manuscripts they're very much at our fingertips thing that's fascinating for a lot of people because I know a lot of people would like to see it with their own eyes if possible that is father John this is entitled patristic s-- what about matura stiix what about mothers of the church do we have any yes I've never heard the term it's a fascinating topic it's first time this conversation I've seen your eyes light up so it's a topic that is obviously of interest because we want to know just what did the fathers do in terms of you know this embracing this inclusiveness that we think we believe is important today we would like to think that we could offer a positive answer to your question I think if we're realistic we probably can't I think that women for the most part could be mothers of fathers of the church women for the most part didn't write theology the way some of these cappadocia fathers did for instance they were written about because you have to remember the culture and the literature was he was controlled by the men of the time the these are the you know earliest centuries we're talking about I I like to quote dr. Eva topping a Greek Orthodox woman and scholar that lived in Virginia died just a few months ago and she says as in all patriarchal societies so too in the church so too in Byzantium it's actually very hard to discern mothers of the church in the early sources we don't for instance have what the Western Church has in appointing for women doctors teachers of the church we don't have that but on the other hand thankfully the Eastern Church has not developed the same persistent and systematic rationalization for the suppression of women as we find for instance in these Scholastic Fathers of the West we find much less of that in the Eastern vial ISM so go ahead father John mentioned Eva topping and her work was on oftentimes on Byzantine him knowledge estándar some work on st. cassia who's a ninth century nun in Constantinople and father John is right we don't have the level of writings very little writings from women from this early period of the church they're just not writing but she's an exception in the sense that she does produce hymnography that survives in the church today that informs us incredibly so in the life of the church especially on holy tuesday night her famous vox st corn but also she wrote epigrams share with these beautiful epigrams which is a traditional way of sort of writing about your life so it's kind of a high-level poetry in some sense and in an attic Greek style and these epigrams talk about the moral life the spiritual life and there's here's a woman in 9th century Constantinople writing to her nuns in an epigram ik form talking about how to live the proper spiritual life so we do have bits and pieces here but nothing that what we do for 4 men we have exceptions as Jim said and I think the exception is the realm of sanctity in the real sanctity or in the desert tradition that I love to study there is I think more equal sort of status where those who go off to the desert seek to become citizens of the kingdom and know that in the kingdom there is neither male nor female but when it comes to as I say writing that we do have a tradition of the not met ristic sputter materi corn like we have pottery corn the book of the fathers but for the most part again these are lives of women saints or sayings of women saints it's only in I think the the school of sanctity will we find this equality in the desert the Desert Fathers would go to the desert mothers for advice but we don't know too much about that tradition it obviously existed yeah the martyt gone I had never heard of and this is a book somebody can check out in their Orthodox Church library or perhaps some more find it online perhaps correct Marty deloria exist the hagia lawyer exists for the the saints of the church the scenic Saudis this exists with the brief lives of saints through the ages that was first started in in around the 10th century so there are various books of lives of scientists and if you can explain some of the terms that you used what those mean hug you lauren means the book of aji of saints Marty rely on the Book of Martyrs the scenic solace this was literally a sin axis a gathering of various lives of saints throughout the liturgical calendar throughout the year and these can just be used to supplement your faith perhaps in a time of turmoil in your life perhaps write us on the path to Christianity is that how they're used or is it mainly theologians who use those in fact I wouldn't say it's mainly theologians in fact I would say it's the people in the life of the church if they have access to these and they're becoming much more available now with translations and whatnot and collections and their base it they're just stories about how pious Christians live their lives and also oftentimes there teachings as well so no they're available and I would say lay people read them often continuing on from what Jim said I would turn the tables and be rather cynical and say theologians probably don't read them too much because theologians don't like to think that they are involved with stories and saintly lives whereas that lay people through the centuries have depended on these lives of saints which are more human which are more accessible which I have to add one thing yes these great fathers of the fourth century that we've mentioned Chrysostom the - Gregory st. basil they all preached sermons and told stories about early Christian martyrs at at moments of the when they church gathered to commemorate these martyrs they were in the pulpit telling the stories about these martyrs and some of them are quite fantastic stories and these are our highbrow theologians in the church thank you doctor schedules let me ask you is everything a father says the truth because of course we've got the Bible we've got the teachings of Jesus and I offer to you an example st. Chrysostom which translates to golden tongue a lot of people believe that some of his writings were very anti-semitic so I'm gonna take the first piece of that question and then if we want to talk we can talk about this anti-semitic piece as well because it is important but that first piece is important as well because I I don't think we as Orthodox Christians are neither we are neither biblical fundamentalists nor are we patristic fundamentalists in the sense that Oh father so-and-so said this so I have to believe it or oh Deuteronomy says this so I've got to follow it we don't approach the scripture that way is Orthodox and we don't approach the fool because we see the that we see that within scripture it is it is if the foundation of our faith but it's part of the foundation of our faith it's not it's Scripture is the result of the church the church scripture comes out of church church doesn't come out of Scripture which is a very different approach I think then our Protestant brothers and sisters might see might see scripture so in that sense Scripture is what the church is but it's part of what the church is just like the father's is what the church but it's a part of it I'm human the fathers human the mothers are human they make mistakes I make mistakes you make mistakes and there's always context there's always context and that's where discernment comes in people who have studied this and especially people who pray and are in in the groove of orthodoxy of our of our Christian faith they are the ones that are better maybe best prepared to interpret this as well as scholars okay and as for Chrysostom then and some of his teachings what do you think you wanna take that well you throw the hard way I want to mention what Jim said about praying I think that's a very important part of reading the father's and understanding the father's you can study their texts you can study their critical editions you can talk about their theology but if you want to really connect with them then it's prayer that does that as one father of the church of Agrius of Pontus in the fourth century said if you pray truly you're a theologian and if you are a theologian you will also be praying truly you'll be praying properly so it's prayer and it's the recognition that we are limited that we do make mistakes that we can't say the wrong things and there are fathers who have said the wrong things there are fathers who are not recognized the Saints to tallien for instance he's a father of church not a recognized saint of the church origin of Alexandria perhaps in many ways the father of the Fathers of the Church not recognized as a saint in fact so there the Church recognizes their reality the the human limitations that that people have the people can make mistakes and it's what we said earlier it's that it's ultimately the consensus of the fathers on a particular topic I don't think you'll find a consensus of the fathers that is anti-semitic you'll find statements among the fathers that are anti-semitic and we don't have to justify them we don't have to say oh maybe you really meant this no maybe he got it wrong or maybe he's speaking from the culture of his time or you know maybe he understands it's in gregory of nyssa for instance one of the greatest philosopher a saint of the church came all fully clothed to heresy so many times in his writings that some people would say the only reason he got away with it is that he was Saint Basil's younger brother so people can make errors but the Church recognizes that there's a conscience there's a consensus there's a mind that's above and beyond individual statements I think we clearly answered that then let me ask you about today's theological thinkers what any of them ever be considered fathers of the church is it a matter of years going by looking back yeah sure they could be considered Fathers of the Church at some point and a father church or that title father of the church usually as often times describe to somebody who has written something or said something or lived something in their life in a real foundational fundamental but also not changing way but a way in which people can go back and say ah they figured it out they got it right so Gregory the theologians five theological sermons on the Trinity he got it right so we go back to those often we may find out you know there's a movement afoot right now to read george florovsky x' works and they've been father george florovsky was a professor he taught here for a short time he taught at Harvard Divinity School he retired down in Princeton he taught at Princeton as well Russian emigre here to the states in the in the 20th century and he was a prolific author his he wrote in English mostly most of his life and his writings are really pretty profound and people read them and listen to them and ever fall and and and and respond to them and so people might say there's a twentieth-century example of a possible father the church no one said that and it may take time and it may not ever happen but his writings are there for us and he's someone who has influenced that's a good point he has yeah yeah you know an entire generation after him right correct and is there a process in which fathers are chosen so I think it's more this reception by the people of someone who has made a lasting contribution in a particular area it's in Gregory the theologian speaks of doing theologies is is like walking a tightrope and it's exactly that because it's balancing the culture of the time the demands of the time the basic doctrines of the church and the needs of our time all of that so as not to fall off the rope and speak in an anti-semitic way for instance but to keep that balance and you do fine I think father Joseph röszke is a good example of someone that could in later years be recognized as someone that shaped theology at the end of the 20th century and just to talk theoretically here how might that happened might it be a sin uh that's convened is it something that's discussed in in a meeting somewhere and they say this gentleman's writings his father's writings shaped a generation do we have a formal process we don't but let's say for example he was canonized a saint now I'm not sure that that would ever happen but if he was canonized a saint then that would sort of that would be but that's a different question you know canonization and where recognition of sainthood is a different question than a father of the church because father John's already mentioned several influential people that we call father's that aren't considered Saints in the church so but we really don't have a process there's not a real process it's more just sort of last father Johnson consensus and did their writings make an impact you know what would probably happen as people begin to list fathers of the church they would handle the father George's name as well father florovsky would be named in a whole list of fathers and that's probably how it would happen but for now it's enough that we know that key theologians in our church and key students of theology in our church have been shaped by the thinking and contribution of this theologian and I'll and with this question to both of you and father you can begin why would you recommend to a lay person such as myself or anybody else out there watching to get to know more about the Fathers of the Church the three fundamental stages of the spiritual life that take a Christian from the moment of conversion of baptism through the ultimate goal of defecation or sanctity have been established through the centuries as the stage of purification illumination and defecation I think that when we read the Church Fathers and are ready to be converted if you like by the mind of the church fathers ready to accept their ethos their franja Mize it's called their mentality their worldview by worldview I mean their vision of the kingdom of heaven then we too go through those stages and if we read the father's with that dimension that perspective of Prayer that perspective of humility then we become contemporaries of the church fathers it's not that they become our contemporaries but we actually enter into their world and enter into that mystery of theology that they make a plain for us dr. skander's I would say that looking back we can draw strength from their boldness towards the Gospel message for their time they were not afraid to take that gospel message the message of Christ and share it articulate it for their audience for their time and for us in the 21st century we need fathers and mothers like that we have lots of different questions perhaps and then they had in the 5th and 8th centuries but the message of Christ is the same we just now have to respond to that message to the world in which we live today and so I would look back to the fathers and mothers and and say we need that boldness to be able to address those kinds of questions dr. skander's thank you so much father John thank you as well and I invite our guests to log onto our YouTube channel for more programs in this series designed to help you discover Orthodox Christianity I'm Stacy Spanos thanks for joining us you you

Channel: GreekOrthodoxChurch

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Keywords: Greek, Orthodox, Christian, America, Church Fathers, Patristics, Orthodox Christianity (Religion)

Id: W4uBkDU14CU

Length: 30min 9sec (1809 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 03 2013