Orthodoxy 101 Bootcamp! Session 2

welcome back I'm father Barnabas Powell and this is st. Raphael Nikolas and Irene Greek Orthodox Church our orthodoxy 101 bootcamp session - we're looking forward to this time together and we trust that it is a blessing to you please don't forget if you have any questions please feel free to email us we'll be happy to answer them as best we can and more than anything we hope that this is a way for you to learn more about the Orthodox Church it's not something that really is on the minds of a lot of people here in the United States and in other parts of the world where orthodoxy is not as well-known as in other parts of the world so hopefully it is at least informative and perhaps even intriguing and draw you to this beautiful faith that has been preserved for 20 centuries so here's Session two I'll be back in just a bit and close things out god bless one of the things that I'm hoping to to really convey to you to you all and to those of you who are being trained on teaching this class is that you're just simply never going to get orthodoxy out of a book it's not going to happen you're never going to get orthotics the other book you can get some information and that's lovely it's just not going to come out of there sorry I mean that's good don't get me wrong no not even that how's that going by the way that's it that was tough slogging for me I've much preferred his Orthodox Way over the Orthodox Church but anyway so the key is is that you've got to understand that orthodoxy and faith in general since the earliest days has been experiencing it's been based been based on relationship and it's been based on the experience of the people of God together one might even say and I think this is significant that the whole concept of Holy Tradition flows out of the understanding of the people of God that we should have a record of how God has acted among us and so the beauty of Holy Tradition becomes the ability for us to say nothing no not a magical thing not some kind of not some kind of really gooey kind of mystical thing Holy Tradition for us isn't necessarily some kind of laws and regulations as much as it is the body of Christ throughout the century saying this is how God has acted among us and we ought not to forget that I told it I told this to a friend of mine I said how in heaven's name can you understand what the Holy Spirit is saying today if you neglect or ignore what the Holy Spirit has said how can you understand what God is saying today if you ignore or our ignorance of what he has said in fact more than likely you're going to misinterpret what he is saying because you don't have the foundational support underneath you to be able to interpret because you know what he has said cut off from the ontological connection of the body of Christ throughout the centuries we are left to our own devices to make sure we're not misunderstanding what is either being read taught or heard that is a big deal at the very least we should be reluctant to make final decisions about important theological issues out of a sense of humility that we haven't done the work necessary to discover what has what how has this been understood throughout the centuries at the very least humility should call us to a more nuanced approach to the beauties of the faith all right let's do a quick overview and then we'll jump right in to tonight's lesson you're reading all of that was just preamble god save us what is one of the biggest difficulties in understanding orthodoxy does anybody remember we covered that last week in the Chapman to let the previous chapter what is one of the biggest difficulties by the way these questions at the end of the chapters this is really good for you to spend a little time and going back it's basically just asking what did we talk about before so what what is one of the biggest difficulties in understanding orthodoxy for the modern American Western thinking person what do you think it takes a long time to say our name and it's easy to misunderstand if you haven't done the work necessary to know us what are some of the names of the Orthodox Church we said the Orthodox Church is known as the Orthodox Church she's one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church she's the Church of the blank Council how many councils seven council she's the Church of the seven councils she was known as the way early on in the earliest days in the book of Acts interestingly in that fascinating that the earliest Christians were known as followers of the way because at its very heart orthodoxy is not a set of precepts or ideas it is a pattern of living at the very heart of the faith is the rejection of religion as anything other than a pattern of how you live your life I think that's significant when did the Orthodox Church begin 33 AD the Orthodox Church is the Church of the Apostles what does the scripture say that G that this that this church is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone this is how the church understands herself who is the leader or the head of the Orthodox Church this is a trick question Jesus Christ is the head of the Orthodox Church Jesus Christ is the head of the Orthodox Church doesn't that make sense what does the APOD as the Apostle Paul described the church in first Corinthians do you remember those of you who are biblical scholars what does the church what is the Apostle Paul talked about how does he talk about the church in first Corinthians especially 1213 so on and so forth a hand cannot say to the I have no need of you how does what imagery does the Apostle Paul use to talk about the church it's a body can I ask you a question have you ever seen a body with no head did you get much activity out of that body no have you ever seen a head with no body how was the conversation with that dear one what in there Jesus Christ is the head of the church as your head is the head of your body the body of Christ this is not mere metaphor this is an ontological description of how the church understands herself the church is the body of Christ the head of the body is Christ that's the reason why we're called to have the mind of Christ because the mind the brain runs the body doesn't that make sense what are the four major characteristics of the Orthodox Church the church under stay understands herself as one one what's the second one holy third Catholic and Apostolic that's how the church understands herself again for those of you who are new to this journey please understand that father Barnabas is not saying you have no choice but to agree with me you should agree with me but you have you have a choice I am NOT saying you have to agree with this I am saying that if you want to understand how the Orthodox Church understands herself this is how she understands herself she understand the Orthodox Church understands herself as one Holy Catholic and apostolic we said the church is one she cannot be denominated the body of Christ cannot be denominated it goes right back to what the Apostle Paul said the hand cannot say to the eye I have no need of you so the church cannot be denominated she can't be separated out and denominated in such a way that this group is doing their own thing and that group over there is doing their own thing and this group over here is doing their own thing that is not how the Orthodox Church understands the Apostolic teaching of what the church is supposed to be that is not the way we think about the church so she's one only one church this church goes across time barriers space barriers language barriers cultural barriers the church is one and is and that unity has never overcome by anything lesser just like the power of God cannot be overcome by anything lesser that's the reason why Jesus said on this rock I'll build my church and the gates of Hell will never prevail against it okay all right so the church is one the church is holy what did we say that the word holy meant a plus Giles set apart for a specific purpose that's what the word holy means it doesn't mean I don't drink smoke or chew and go with girls that do holiness is about the purpose of that object that is holy the church is holy because she exclusively belongs to Jesus Christ period full stop into discussion the church is holy not only is the church one not only is the church holy the church understands herself as Catholic and what does the word Catholic mean whole complete well-rounded healthy full universal everywhere the Church of Jesus Christ is absolutely completely and totally hello my angel how are you now here come up here just so people will understand on this recording what's happening say hello can you say hey god bless you there we go now go see mom okay alrighty no don't worry about it that's that's that's free won't cost you a thing so the church is complete within herself she does not need to be reformed she does not need to be reconstituted she does not need to be rediscovered or rescued the church understands herself as Catholic and she is Catholic in an ontological sense do you understand what I mean by the word ontological it has to do with her being this is how she understands herself the church is Catholic in other words you ain't gonna need nothing outside of this everything you ever will need to know God is inside her because she's Catholic okay finally not only is the church one not only she holy not only she Catholic but she is apostolic the Church of Jesus Christ the Orthodox Catholic Church understands herself as following in line without division the teachings of the men who were named apostles again remember the Orthodox Church does not understand herself as a set of precepts or ideas or religious philosophy the Orthodox Church understands herself a communion of persons that have not been overcome even by time death or space I am connected with people not with ideas does that make sense this communion of persons just like the Holy Trinity is a communion of persons is the ontological understanding of how the church understands herself she is apostolic she is the Church of the Apostles I want to read you this quote from father thomas hopko we tend to think of mercy almost exclusively in terms of justice the opposite of being justly judged and therefore condemned is to receive mercy so the lord have mercy gets interpreted as lord grant us pardon our Lord led us off you hear us say this by the way this is a parenthetical statement you hear us say in our Orthodox worship lord have mercy lord have mercy lord have mercy every time you turn around somebody saying lord have mercy in the Orthodox Church you think there were Southers but no in the scripture and tradition however mercy is not primarily at the antonyms of justice it is rather a word for goodness kindness generosity and love the word mercy in the english translation of kitty Laysan is from the greek word Alejo which is most often it is true translated mercy this word however has comes to us from the Hebrew word has said which may be translated into English in many different ways some Bibles say mercy others steadfast love till other stays tenderness our loving-kindness or simply love so it may as well be translated as Lord be merciful gracious kind generous compassionate bountiful loving according to his self revelation God is all of these things whether we pray to him or not so when we pray lord have mercy we are simply saying to God Lord be to us as you are Lord act toward us as you do Lord we want you to be with us and to do with us as you yourself are and will they do the lord have mercy that we say in the in the in the Divine Liturgy and the prayers of the Orthodox Church it's not Lord please don't punish us not lord please be please be forgiving to us to overlook our mistakes and our faults know when the church cries out lord have mercy she is saying Lord we recognize that you have always been loving good and kind toward us keep doing that the difference may appear slight but it is absolutely essential to understand that this is a significant and basic difference the way the Eastern Orthodox Church has understood mercy and justice and salvation and righteousness and redemption as opposed to the Western mindset that has been very very jurat achill and law oriented the most part American churches are Western most of us have been inheritors of a Western theological mindset I like what what one of the one of the Eastern Orthodox fellows was talking and he said that Protestants are nothing but angry Roman Catholics but they're still Roman Catholics they just mad at the Pope because they still shape all of their questions exactly like the Roman Catholics it shaped their questions they just come up with different answers when we're dealing with Eastern Orthodoxy folks you're going to discover a different set of questions and this can be extremely disconcerting to those of us who are used to a very linear logical let's solve all the mysteries mindset that seems to be so prevalent in our Western scholastic understanding of how we do faith so there's going to be differences because we're going to focus on philosophical differences in this chapter it may seem that this is a negative treatise in some way or derogatory toward the West that is not the case at all the East and West have different mindsets but you've got to understand the East and West worm one church for a thousand years before they drifted apart you understand that and so it isn't that what you have been shaped by and what you've learned your whole life is absolutely worthless nothing could be further from the truth what I am offering you is a nuanced approach that might fill up and balance out some of the things that you believe your whole life that he is absolutely necessary for you to deal with what is going to be at times you're going to scratch your head and say I we started talking about a he ended up saying something about B and then all of a sudden we finished up with C where do you how did we get there and I know that that can be confusing but trust me on this folks one of the fundamental ways that the Orthodox Church does theology will be absolutely inscrutable to those of us who insist on a slide rule mentality to faith okay all right the history of a Western view Western histories have largely ignored Eastern Christianity in fact the fact the matter is one Western Protestant history book said that the Eastern Orthodox Church was so atrophied and completely backward as to be completely useless after the 12th century well that's not helpful anyway the Western histories have largely ignored Eastern Christianity I did not discover the Eastern Orthodox Church until a friend of mine a fellow Pentecostal pastor gave me the book the Orthodox Church after telling me of his trip to Russia on a missionary trip with a Presbyterian group don't ask me for this rail for this reason very little is known about Eastern Christianity or the Eastern Roman Empire the West has mainly focused on the barbarian invasion of Western Empire and the shape of Europe and the Americas after the fall of the Roman in the western part of the fall of the Roman Empire but what you may not understand is that the eastern Roman Empire lasted for another thousand years not falling until 1453 to the ottomans in 1453 at the fall of Constantinople and do you know what those Greeks and those inheritors of those people are called even today even today in the city of Istanbul do you know what they call the Greeks their Romans to this day because the eastern Roman Empire didn't think of herself as the Byzantine Empire then she didn't think of herself as the Greek Empire she didn't think of herself as anything but the Roman Empire we got the Roman Empire here the Western the old Rome fell okay well we still got Constantinople we still got the Senate we still have everything that the Roman Empire had what we don't have is the western part it fell to the barbarians shame sad breaks our heart wish it hadn't happen but the Roman Empire endures and it did till 1453 alright so one of the hurdles of understanding orthodoxy is that Western Christians seem to have no categories for Eastern theological concepts Westerners it's for Westerners it seems impossible that Eastern Christians just can't express their beliefs in a way to fit the theological categories of Western doctrinal ideas it's simply not going to work that's the reason why many times in discussions with my precious Western Christian brethren whenever I start talking and I use the same words they do I have to constantly go back and interpret what I'm saying because when I say salvation and when they say salvation they're meaning some Punk till your event that when I say Punk tiller that went some past event I won't walk down the aisle and gave my heart to Jesus and now I'm saved and we just it's not bad don't get me wrong I think that's wonderful I did the same thing but when I think about salvation from an Orthodox standpoint that is certainly not the way I think about it I mean at all at all certainly nice to have a beginning everybody's gonna have a getting I've never met anybody without a birthday so you got to have a beginning and is nothing wrong with kindergarten something wrong with being in kindergarten when you're 30 so it must be admitted that until the 20th century very little effort was made for Orthodox theologians to explain orthodoxy to Western Christians that lack of web effort has been likely due the peculiar circumstances north gaara's christians found themselves in they tended to be an immigrant community in the West they tended to be most of them usually found themselves in the West after running for their lives frankly from their different parts of the world where they were from orthodoxy came to this country as basically at least in the lower 48 states as an immigrant movement not as a missionary movement we have had particular ramifications because of that in that situation in our Orthodox Church here in the United States but it isn't something that we can ignore the Orthodox Church came to the shores of the lower 48 mainly as an immigrant expression not as a missionary expression there is an exception in Alaska orthis ich aim to Alaska as a missionary movement because of that the vast majority of Native Alaskans they call them Indians the vast majority of Native Alaskans are in fact Orthodox it is an indigenous Orthodox expression in this in the state of Alaska that did work its way down into Northern California and also in on the west coast but for the most part orthodoxy in this country has been an immigrant situation so it has been a group of people very much attempting to preserve their communities preserve us their way of life their understanding of how life works family connections and cultural connections because of that we have had real challenges in seeing the Orthodox the Orthodox in this country move from from an exclusively immigrant mentality to allowing people as your speaker it is to be a part of the Orthodox Church but you must understand folks it's happening and it's been happening and it's going to continue to happen since 1987 there have been over 50,000 evangelical Protestants become Orthodox in the United States just what is it's just what is and it's it's the situation is this the the cow is out of the barn you're not putting this genie back in the bottle this is out now so this is the reality and so now we have found ourselves having to explain Orthodox concepts to Western here's because for instance when I became Orthodox I did explain to my dad why I was making the sign of the Cross I had to explain to my dad why I was going off to seminary again I had to explain to my family why was it that that Barnabas was going to be late to Christmas Day dinner because he had to go to church on Christmas Day religious holiday by the way for those of you don't know Christmas is actually a religious holiday and we go to church on December the 25th that's when we we go to church on that day and I had to explain all that and then I had to explain why in heaven's name would you feel it to be important to do something like this why do I go all this trouble what's it what's it worth and so we had to find a way to communicate these concepts to Western Christians and we found four contrasting distinctives look on page 21 of the book for contrasting distinctives that really typify how the Orthodox Church understands herself does theology and insists that these distinctive characteristics affect every aspect of what it means to be an Orthodox Christian here goes the Orthodox Church Eastern Orthodoxy is communal intuitive holistic and mystical we are communal because this flows from the directly from the concept of the Holy Trinity you and I dear ones are created in the image of God we're created in the image of God if God understands himself as persons in communion then dear ones there is absolutely no other option for you you are going to understand yourself as persons in communion now this will fly into the face of this particularly American Western notion of radical individualism Tom T Hall had a great song in the 70s I'm gonna sing it for you this is free to me and Jesus got our own thing Oh in me and Jesus we got it all worked out me and Jesus got our own thing going we don't need anybody to tell us what it's all about it's all and why is that because it plugs into this very very radical notion of individualism that provides American Christianity why do you think there are over 40,000 different Christian denominations it's just getting more and more folk and plus we are mere capitalists we're consumer oriented and so if you don't like Starbucks you go to Dunkin Donuts and so if you don't like this Baptist Church you go over there to the Presbyterian Church you shop just like good American consumers but the Orthodox Church doesn't understand herself that way the distinctive characteristic of Orthodoxy is that it is communal because we understand the doctrine of the Trinity as the basic foundation of how to understand humanity if I'm creating the image of God then if God knows himself as persons in communion that's the way I'm going to know myself okay so isolated individualism is going to be anathema to the Orthodox understanding of how we do theology that means the way we do theology is communal that's the reason why the Orthodox Church doesn't understand why the Rome why Rome felt they were free to change the creed arbitrarily without getting everybody back together again if everybody got together to decide how the creed should be written if you're going to change the Creed guess what you got to do if you're a communal Church if you understand your if you understand the way you do theology as communal you got to get everybody back together again maybe we need to change it what y'all gonna be able to make that decision without everybody together because we're communal because God is Father Son and Holy Spirit via listen this is this is significant folks if you violate the principle of the doctrine of the Trinity in any aspect of your life you are going to find yourself going in a place that you don't want to be the doctrine of the Trinity revelation of the Trinity is absolutely foundational in how you decide what your theology should be and the very notion that you should somehow by yourself decide what that theology should be is a problem because the Orthodox Church understands herself as community communal orthodoxy is a living faith always lived out in relation let me say that again orthodoxy is a living faith always lived out in relation in relationship okay it makes sense why st. Cyprian wrote what he wrote a person cannot have God as his father if he does not have the church as his mother secondly the Orthodox Church is intuitive that's the reason why ladies the men may get the other at the intellectual part of this but you ladies have a leg up on us because of your ability to be intuitive intuition refers to insight that does not proceed exclusively from rational thought faith is experiencial it must be shown in experience I can say I believe in something till you until I'm green but unless it actually affects the way I behave the chances are I'm not telling the truth or I'm confused this intuition means that while truth is described by intellectual propositions faith never rests completely or exclusively on these propositions since it is impossible to encapsulate the faith into them the great mysteries of God of creation of the Incarnation and redemption will always transcend doctrinal formations this is the reason why the church has always been reluctant to make a definitive statement she has only been forced to make definitive statements by heretical dangers to the faith in fact one of the gifts of the heresy to the church has been to force the church to make some doctrinal statements so that no one will misunderstand what the faith is does that make sense again I'm not asking you to agree with me I'm just saying this is how the church understands herself communal intuitive the church understands herself as holistic holistic has to do with the whole person rather than attempt to treat parts such as I so has your soul been saved brother as your been saved yeah and so is my body and my spirit in my mind and my actions my emotions all of that's been saying you are meant to be saved holistically salvation in the orthodox understanding doing theology in the orthodox understanding will never lend itself to systematic theology this has been one of the most amazing differences that i found personally in being trained both in a protestant seminary and in an orthodox seminary systematic theology is simply not done in an orthodox context it's just not and the reason why it's not is not because systematic theology is bad but because if you try to start dissecting the subject and put it into these different parts now we Westerners love that I love them when I was a kid I loved to take something apart see how it works what's the problem of taking it apart and angle work how do you what do you have to do to a subject to dissect it what do you have to do to an animal to dissect it you've got to kill it you got to kill it the West does theology by saying wow let's get that sin taken apart you know how the Orthodox do theology the Orthodox do theology saying wow let's sit back and see what happens let's sit back and see how this works because there's something fundamental and fundamentally dangerous about trying to tease out all of these different ologies soteriology mary ology ecclesiology eschatology you start teasing all these things out and then you start having people who are experts in their one little field but they can't talk to each other where's the unifying principle goodness gracious science has been trying to find the you know unified theory for centuries when it comes to theology the church understands herself as holistic the Greek the Eastern Orthodox Church is holistic finally the church is mystical now mystical does not mean agatha christie it does it doesn't mean this is a puzzle that has to be solved the mysticism of the Orthodox Church is this truth is so big that no matter what I learn about it or how much I learn about it I am never going to find its borders I am never going to exhaust the fruit the blessing the treasure that is within this theology because it's mystical I am serious about the use of my mind I use my mind to the glory of God and I am exact and I am diligent in the use of my mind but I understand that no matter how much I use my mind I will not wrap my arms around this faith it will always be bigger than me it will always cause me this faith will always cause me to stand slack-jawed in the face of this eternal beauty the way orthodoxy understands mysticism is eyes and mouth wide open that's how we understand mystery it isn't something as in a puzzle that is a niche that we have to solve it is a truth that is always bigger than the collective wisdom of all humans that's big I told my dad when I converted to orthodoxy I said dad I finally found a theology large enough for the dignity of the human soul and that made all the difference I want to talk to you quit real quick about original sin what's our time I want to talk to you real quick about original sin I'm going to take 30 more minutes half an hour original sin is understood differently in the Orthodox faith original sin for us is not original guilt but the but the primordial wound this is extremely important because in the West Agustin blessed Agustin and those that followed him began to talk about original sin in a way that did not carry with it the nuances of the Eastern mindset I would say that a Gustin is wonderful augustinianism has some problems in my opinion in the opinion of the church many Western church leaders were trained in law or were political leaders they tended to view salvation and atonement in the same way they looked at people's relationship with government in legal or juridical terms in the New Testament their various references that lend themselves to a juridical view of salvation look at Romans 5:18 to some degree the more radical Protestant view stem from an attempt to steer away from a view that Lindt itself to sing salvation as the result of merit they wanted to avoid any idea that seemed to be based on merit or the magical view of the sacraments what do you think hocus-pocus comes from from the Latin this is my buddy hocus in pocus noon it was made to make fun of the Roman Catholics by the way that's also where the hokey-pokey came from the Protestants making fun of the liturgical movements of the Roman Catholics you put your right foot in you take your right foot out that's where it came from and who knew that what if the hokey-pokey really is what it's all about all right that's there in the West sin was seen as the breaking of a commandment or the breaking of a rule whereas in the East sin was viewed as a wounding of the original image mankind was created in and a breaking of the relationship between God and mankind salvation for orthodoxy means restoring this relationship reconnecting to our only source of life and restoring the fellowship between God and man the physical and the spiritual God has always intended to be together it also means theosis mankind becoming like God many times in the Oh in the first Testament when you when you hear that our Lord among the gods the Orthodox Church understands that as deified humanity the purpose of salvation in the Orthodox Church is specifically to see humans become God's companions little gods little G Orthodox Christians do not believe in original guilt they do believe Adam's sin has affected everybody because a break in communion with God humans have inherited a weakened nature corrupted by sin and enslaved by Satan cut off from God Adam and his descendants passed under the Dominion of sin and the devil each new human is born into a world where it's easy to sin a world where it's hard to do good our will which is for the Orthodox the primary seat of the work of salvation not our nature our will is weakened and enfeebled but what the Greeks called desire and what the Latins called concupiscence we are all subject to these and the spiritual effects of original sin the wounding of humanity Orthodox Christians believe we are guilty only of our own sins we are not guilty I am not guilty of Adam's sin there is no there's no sense that the guilt has been passed on to everybody while we share in the effects of Adam's sin we do not share in his guilt he guilty of his own sins just like I'm guilty of mine sin from the Eastern Orthodox standpoint is a is a wounding of the image of God it is a marring of the image that out that language actually exists in the West as well rather than an offence against the dignity of God ultimately for the Orthodox salvation is not God trying to fix his problem but God trying to fix my problem in salvation of humanity it's not God who has the problem how in the world am I going to accept these dirty filthy rotten stinking humans now since they've broken my rules my dignity has been offended how do I fix my problem salvation in the Orthodox understanding is not God's problem it's your problem and God comes to fix it so because of this sin is a corruption of the will and a tendency toward the weak and corrupt desires that enslave us primarily it is the will that the grace of God has to strengthen and enable to allow men to return to unity with him in the West theologians have long debated the mystery of how God's wounded dignity may be repaired as though sin were God's problem in not ours an orthodoxy sin is viewed as a problem with mankind since it is mankind that needs restoring God's fine God needs nothing since he is completing every way not even the creation was necessary even creation itself from an orthodox standpoint is an act of love and God's over abundant caring for us God loved us before he made us and he loved us so much he made us because he loved us okay so God did not create evil the main issue of salvation in orthodoxy is a broken relationship with the source of all life unplug a lamp and turn the switch on all you want and it's not going to burn it's got to get reconnected to the source of power before it will be and it will do what it was created to be and do sin cuts us off from God's life because that's what sin is not because God is angry or God is a punishing or God is saying naughty naughty or the ultimate killjoy or the or the cosmic party pooper God is not angry at us as if we had the power to disturb God's peace God created everything good God looked at what he made and he said in the book of Genesis this is very good God did not create evil since evil is the absence of good like darkness is the absence of light death resulted from sin because mankind cut himself off from life from God it is not buds dignity or his justice that needs to be repaired it is our broken relationship that needs to be healed so salvation for the Orthodox is both a restoration of the broken relationship and the fulfillment of the divine prerogative to put on the new self to become a new creature in Christ Jesus as the Apostle Paul says salvation isn't simply attaining what Adam lost God is not trying to get us back into the garden God wants to take us beyond the garden to where he's always intended to take humanity and that is by his side why do you think that when Jesus Christ rose from the dead he took his flesh to the right hand of God because that's where humans have always belonged humans have always belonged by the right side of the Father that's what that's where they were created to sit no wonder on Lord Jesus God in the flesh kept his flesh and took it to the right hand of God the Father that's where we have always been intended to go honey I will tell you what if I don't want to help you preach your woods with that's just all there is to it that's just good stuff I mean that's just that's so cosmically amazing now how in heaven now do you understand why it is such a tragedy for humans to live below the dignity of their creation why it is such a horrible loss a cosmic loss a universal loss for even one human to live beneath the dignity of their creation sorry I'm preaching here but that's just that's what I do I preach all right so sin is missing the market is not breaking the rules sin is failing to be what Christ is the opposite of sin is godliness or righteousness and this is where the Orthodox differ from Western understanding of the atonement why did Jesus died on the cross for the West Jesus Christ is seen as the victim on the cross unjustly accused this is true unjustly tried yes taken advantage of treated badly undeservedly treated the way he was treated but he was taking the punishment that we deserved this is the Western understanding of why Jesus died on the cross God the Father was pouring his wrath on his son on the cross so that God the father's sense of justice and dignity could be restored do you see the danger in that idea because it makes salvation God's problem God's weakness God has somehow lost something God has has somehow had something taken from him now do you understand why a theism is such a Western phenomenon this idea of the atonement makes God weak susceptible to the power of humans susceptible to the power of his own creation needing to fix himself the eastern understanding of the atonement is not that at all orthodoxy holds what is commonly called the classical view of the atonement in this view mankind is enslaved by sin death and the devil that God in Christ defeats these powers to him that we sing on paska he has trampled down death by death and on those in the tombs bestowing life sinned by his incarnation death by his dying and the devil by his resurrection Jesus Christ is not the victim on the cross but if I can use the Latin the Christus Victor he is the victor on the cross that's the reason why in much north of Orthodox iconography when you see Jesus on the cross it almost looks as if he's holding the wood up and not the other way around in fact the Orthodox understand that Christ ascends the wood of the cross as a conqueror to fight the battle to destroy the enemies that keep us from God God loves humanity and is sent Christ to die on the cross not to satisfy the father's wounded dignity but to destroy the slaveholders that kept God's creation whom he loved separated from him the Western or Latin view of the atonement sometimes called the satisfaction theory seeks the disobedience of man as an infinite affront to the dignity and honor and majesty of God and that affront requires payment infinite sacrifice and satisfaction but since no creature could offer such a satisfaction God had to create his son some that he could have and this is not fair folks but this really the way many who reject God and call themselves atheist see this vision of the moment God created something so he could have something to kill and he points to the cross and looks at his creation and says see what you made me do can't worship a God like that folks you might be able to fear him you might be able to serve Him to try to get him off your back but you ain't gonna love of God that'll do something like that sorry you're not going to love him you may be terrified of him but ultimately you will not love him that's I automatically see that as that's that can be grossly unfair because there are many Western Christians who genuinely do love God but they love God in spite of some of the theology that is inherent in the Western view of the Theia of the atonement so while satisfaction is certainly present here as the Western view it should be noted that there is no single monolithic view of the atonement for all Western Christians this view is more prevalent certainly in the West but recently there have been a lot of other folks out there saying the same thing maybe God isn't all-knowing that's certainly the ugly what is it the the open the open God view that is they become prevalent in some or some Protestant seminaries hell is not eternal love wins all of these things are the West wrestling with the implications of their satisfaction view of the atonement because of this poverty this weakness in Western theology Westerners are very susceptible to the sickness of atheism I'm going to stop there because I think that is a huge thing because we're going to start talking about the Holy Trinity I tell you what let me do this let's do this let's skip over talking about the Holy Trinity because we're going to do that in in a completely different section going over to page 25 and let's look at the source of truth and we'll take just a few minutes there again sorry guys this is boot camp so I just this you know sorry this is this is tough stuff yes exactly thank you sir may I have another Amen another difference between the East and the West is though is the source of authority of truth in fact I will say this folks that basically when it comes down to any theology the question of authority is at the heart of the issue what is your authority answer that question and I'll tell you who you are the source of authoritative truth while all Christians will affirm that ultimately God is the source of truth and the final authority for all matters of faith and practice how that truth is revealed is an area of great debate for Roman Catholics truth is revealed through an infallible Magisterium this is expressed with the church councils through the school of Cardinals and finally through the Pope of Rome when he speaks ex cathedra by the way the old canard of the Protestants that the Pope is supposedly infallible is an unfair treatment of that doctrine and it always has been and it always will be it is a childish understanding of ex cathedra ex cathedra is not something the Pope of Rome does every every Friday afternoon the fact of the matter is ex cathedra is a very very special a moment in for the Roman Catholics but still their understanding of authority rests in the Magisterium specifically embodied completely by the Pope of Rome for most Protestants truth is revealed by an infallible scripture the Bible the group that is taking this idea further than anybody else is the fundamentalists the fundamentalist movement is a 20th century phenomenon dr. Cici laws editor of the Baptist watchman examiner first used the term fundamentalist whose writings implied that this view expressed the fundamentals of the Christian faith the irreducible minimum of belief which without which one could not be a Christian so in the West the question of party has been answered by the two basic parts of the West Rome has answered it that authority is in the Magisterium specifically embodied exclusively by the Pope of Rome the Protestants have said no infallible Authority is in the scriptures consequently those two folks have been fighting ever since for the Orthodox Church the Eastern Orthodox source of truth is the Holy Spirit page 26 all orthodoxy considers reason as not as as not seen as useless or unnecessary and understanding truth reason is important your mind was given to you as a gift it is an expression of the grace of God reason is not infallible and must be constantly tested by other methods in orthodoxy the Bible does not stand alone outside of all other sources of Revelation as an infallible guide to truth rather the Bible is seen as the preeminent part of the truth handed down by Christ to the Apostles and by the Apostles to faithful Christians the Orthodox Church call this sacred tradition do you remember when I said earlier that the Orthodox Church understands herself as communal that we understood holy tradition as a an accurate record of how God has acted among his people throughout the centuries here you are and so for us the Holy Scriptures constitute a unique and powerful part of holy tradition a preeminent part of holy tradition but it makes sense if you look at the scriptures and you read the scriptures you see the power of the scriptures is in their accurate record of how God acted among his people the root of how you understand tradition and authority is found there the Orthodox Church call this sacred tradition they believe that sacred tradition is a revelation of God's truth it's all in agreement with the message of the gospel with what Christ told his apostles what st. Paul delivered to the Corinthians 1st Corinthians 12:2 and 23 to the Philippians Philippians 49 to the Galatians Galatians 1:9 to the Thessalonians 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and 2 Timothy 2 Timothy 3:14 most Protestants also believe in tradition but they subordinated to the scriptures while tradition is part of everybody's belief I had one guy tell me we don't believe in tradition the traditions of men I said let me ask you something y'all meet every Sunday at the same time well yeah where's that in the Bible y'all meet 11 o'clock on Sunday morning yeah that's the tradition if he said fusions 8 yes it's in the book of the book of concordance no I make fun but the point is everybody has tradition folks everybody has tradition even the folks who say we don't have any tradition at all that's not true they their lack of tradition is a tradition so everybody has a tradition it's not a matter of whether you have tradition or not do you have a full tradition do you have a well-rounded tradition do you have a whole tradition do you have a healthy tradition that's the only issue to ant that the only question to answer precious friends is your tradition healthy and producing Saints can a man become like Jesus Christ by following your tradition the Orthodox would say yes if you follow this tradition that we have received it wasn't given it we didn't come up with it it was given to us there you go so everybody has a tradition Roman Catholics praise placed tradition beside the scripture as if the Bible and tradition were were two different things orthodoxy on the other hand for the Protestants the Bible is over tradition for the Roman Catholics of the Bible and tradition are side-by-side for the Orthodox holy tradition is the scriptures and how the Holy Spirit continues to act in his urghhh to this day it doesn't mean the scriptures is that our app being added to doesn't mean that new revelation is coming that we're going to a you know we got to stick something in between revelation and third John it's not what we believe but we do believe that the beauty and the glories and the fullness of the faith were given to us at Pentecost whole and complete and we've been unpacking this gift ever since and it just doesn't seem wise to us as Orthodox to reinvent the wheel every generation of course Holy Tradition for the Orthodox Church is a lit watch this this is important is a living continuity with early Christians with all Christians I am a brother and I am a brother of every man or woman who has ever loved Jesus Christ I am related not a distant relative not a distant cousin no a brother I am a brother do you see the power in that precious friends I am a brother to every person who's ever loved Jesus Christ a brother not a distant brother not a distant cousin not a second cousin twice removed I am a brother well the only way to be a brother to every believer who's ever been involved been in the church is to say that that treasure of faith was given to the church and it transcends the ability of time or space to bring division and it also says death isn't a problem for us anymore that makes sense because Jesus is destroyed yet okay so it is a living continuity with the early Christians all that the church has clearly articulated throughout the ages this is Holy Tradition if the church has articulated a wisdom and a truth and an understanding we pay attention to that Holy Tradition ultimately folks is giving your ancestors a vote the witness of the Holy Spirit how has God acted among his people since the day of Pentecost and it is in fact a continuous Pentecost you notice the Holy Spirit came down we have no record of it going of him going back up he's still here and he's been here since the day of Pentecost and he's been doing what Jesus promised he'd do ever since then and leading us into all truth he's never dropped a ball the church he has never left the church go by the rails he's never allowed the church to get to the point where it needed to be reformed rediscovered recreated the Holy Spirit has done his job and he's done it well he's never dropped the ball of course not all sacred tradition is of equal value just like you don't memorize all the stuff in Leviticus even all of us understand there's some portions of the scripture that we underline in other portions we don't so it is the same way with sacred tradition not all sacred tradition has the same value so in fact this will go to your question last week how do we understand in the scriptures where it is authority alive with the Orthodox Church it lies in the Holy Spirit how does the holy how does the Orthodox Church look at the scripture the other scripture is the preeminent expression of Holy Tradition how do we understand in the scriptures when I became Orthodox a very very prominent evangelical Protestants television preacher whom I know and love Tommy said well now now brother Powell we just got to stick with Jesus I said brother I agree with you a hundred percent which one everybody whose brother has got a Jesus out there got we've even got we've even got a Muslim author right now Aslan dr. Aslan he's got his Jesus here's Jesus looks a lot different than I love a lot of other folks Jesus so I'm all for saying we've got to focus on Jesus which one lots of them out there which Jesus who's going to arbitrate between all of these voices just left to my own devices do I have to just sit in the corner and just try to weigh all the information as best I can or is there another way the Orthodox Church would say there is another way well brother brother Paul we got to focus on the scripture I said man you're exactly right we got to focus on the scriptures which one's Roman Catholics got their cannon Eastern Orthodox got their cannon Protestants have got their cannon Jehovah's Witnesses say there's it was all interpreted it was all written wrong in the first place and they had their New World Translation Mormons got their doctrines and covenants pearl of great price all the other books that they've added to the scriptures yes exactly and you've got the arm and the Thummim and looking in the head and getting on the interpret I don't wanna make fun the point is I'm all for sticking with the scriptures which ones who's going to arbitrate between all these voices we're going to hold what we're gonna hold a vote going to have a campaign by hands who's going to arbitrate between all of these disparate voices out there that are telling me Auto over here no no over here the Orthodox Church says there is a path this has been something that they have talked about for centuries in ad 434 a saint a little-known monk by the name of Vincent of Lorentz wrote a book called a comet a kumano Torrey and aid to remembering more clearly than anyone else st. Vincent established the test for determining biblical interpretation saint vincent said that if you want to know where the fullness of the faith is you have to have universality antiquity and consensus what has been believed everywhere always and by all find a doctrine that everybody's believed since the beginning and has consistently been believed across centuries across cultures across places that ought to get your attention that's where you ought to start a novel new idea a new revelation ought to be suspicious to you even spurgeon the great the great reformer said if it's new it's not true and I'm not just talking about old here folks what has been believed everywhere always and by all universality antiquity and consensus has it been believed everywhere that ought to get your attention has it been believed since the beginning that ought to get your attention do you know where bishops show up in the history of the church Ignatius before the death of st. John on Patmos he's a bishop and he talks about Bishop priests and deacons and laity that's before the beginning that's before the end of the first century folks then ought to get your attention it ought to make you ask questions so and I'm not saying just because it's old means it's true there's a lot of old stuff that's garbage Arianism is old just ask the job as witnesses arianism is old but the church is rejected arianism so just because it's old doesn't mean it's everything this threefold test is what you have to apply universality antiquity and consensus has it believed everywhere has it been believed always and has there been a time in the history of the faith where the Holy Spirit has gathered the church together to argue and press out what does this mean universality antiquity and consensus was there a time when the church got together and said you know what folks this is the path that ought to get your attention that ought to earn a hearing in your ears you ought to give that faith the benefit of the doubt according to st. Vincent this is before the split between East and West 434 so this is a and Vincent is writing as if this is what we fought since the beginning over and over again in every one of the council's the fathers of all the council's have said listen we're not adding to the church we're not adding to the faith we're simply articulating what we've always said we were making it very plain and the church actually went out of her way to make those statements so that they would never be thought that this idea of well this is progressive revelation no it is the church unpacking this glorious gift from God and discovering new aspects that have always existed they're not something new so one final word ultimate truth for Orthodox Christians is not a doctrine or belief it is a person the truth is a person truth is a person I cannot have a relationship with a precept I can only have a relationship with a person truth is a person that person is Jesus Christ truth for us is not a system of thought according to mother Mary truth is not created truth is Christ is the truth truth is a person truth is not limited within our apprehension of it truth transcends us we can never come to the full comprehension of the truth the search for truth is a search for the person of Jesus Christ truth is the mystery of the person of Christ and because it is a person the mystery is inseparably linked with the end the event of the encounter mystery and event are one the mystery for the Orthodox mind is a precise and austere reality it is Christ and it is to meet Christ that is truth for the Orthodox all right we're going to stop there we'll get to the Holy Trinity next week questions thanks so much for watching we did cover a lot of territory tonight don't forget please contact us if you have any questions and also feel free to share these videos with others that might find them interesting as well we encourage you to learn more about the beauties of the ancient but not just ancient the timeless faith preserved in the Orthodox Christian tradition there may just be spiritual treasures here that will be a blessing to you and your life I pray that it is we'll see you next time with session 3 until then god bless you

Channel: Christian Strength Tv

Views: 22,762

Keywords:

Id: wdB3y7SsIus

Length: 69min 36sec (4176 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 06 2016