OUR SHOW. >>> WE BEGIN WITH BREAKING NEWS. >>> WE BEGIN WITH BREAKING NEWS. DONALD TRUMP’S TAX RECORDS DONALD TRUMP’S TAX RECORDS REVEAL FRAUD AND SCHEMES TO DUCK REVEAL FRAUD AND SCHEMES TO DUCK TAXES ON A MASSIVE LONG-TERM TAXES ON A MASSIVE LONG-TERM SCALE. SCALE. THAT IS THE HEADLINE FROM A THAT IS THE HEADLINE FROM A MASSIVE, EXHAUSTIVE, DETAILED MASSIVE, EXHAUSTIVE, DETAILED INVESTIGATIVE REPORT THAT "THE INVESTIGATIVE REPORT THAT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" JUST DROPPED ON NEW YORK TIMES" JUST DROPPED ON THE POLITICAL WORLD TONIGHT. THE POLITICAL WORLD TONIGHT. WE’RE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE WE’RE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE CORE OF DONALD TRUMP’S WEALTH CORE OF DONALD TRUMP’S WEALTH AND POLITICAL APPEAL. AND POLITICAL APPEAL. BECAUSE HE’S ALWAYS ARGUED, BECAUSE HE’S ALWAYS ARGUED, ABOVE ALL ELSE, BEFORE ABOVE ALL ELSE, BEFORE EVERYTHING ELSE, HE IS, HE SAYS, EVERYTHING ELSE, HE IS, HE SAYS, A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN. A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN. BUT THESE JOURNALISTS GOT AHOLD BUT THESE JOURNALISTS GOT AHOLD OF OVER 100,000 PAGES OF OF OVER 100,000 PAGES OF DOCUMENTS. DOCUMENTS. THEY FOUND DUBIOUS TAX SCHEMES THEY FOUND DUBIOUS TAX SCHEMES AND, QUOTE, OUTRIGHT FRAUD. AND, QUOTE, OUTRIGHT FRAUD. THE WHITE HOUSE IS ALREADY THE WHITE HOUSE IS ALREADY PUSHING BACK ON THIS BIG STORY PUSHING BACK ON THIS BIG STORY AT THIS HOUR. AT THIS HOUR. MORE ON THAT IN A FEW MOMENTS. MORE ON THAT IN A FEW MOMENTS. BUT THIS IS SIGNIFICANT APART BUT THIS IS SIGNIFICANT APART FROM EVERYTHING ELSE THAT IS FROM EVERYTHING ELSE THAT IS CONTROVERSIAL ABOUT TRUMP. CONTROVERSIAL ABOUT TRUMP. APART FROM HIS LIES OR HIS APART FROM HIS LIES OR HIS DISTRACTION TWEETS OR HIS DISTRACTION TWEETS OR HIS CONSTANT INSULTS OF ALL SORTS OF CONSTANT INSULTS OF ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE. PEOPLE. THIS IS A STORY THAT POTENTIALLY THIS IS A STORY THAT POTENTIALLY UNDERCUTS THE THING THAT TRUMP UNDERCUTS THE THING THAT TRUMP SUPPORTERS SAY THEY’VE ALWAYS SUPPORTERS SAY THEY’VE ALWAYS LIKED ABOUT HIM. LIKED ABOUT HIM. THE IDEA. THE IDEA. THE BELIEF. THE BELIEF. AND MAYBE THE MASSIVE CON. AND MAYBE THE MASSIVE CON. THAT HE IS A SELF-MADE THAT HE IS A SELF-MADE BILLIONAIRE. BILLIONAIRE. LET’S GO OVER THE DETAILS BEFORE LET’S GO OVER THE DETAILS BEFORE WE GET TO SOME INCREDIBLE WE GET TO SOME INCREDIBLE EXPERTS ON THIS. EXPERTS ON THIS. REPORTERS EXAMINE BANK REPORTERS EXAMINE BANK STATEMENTS, AUDITS, OVER 200 TAX STATEMENTS, AUDITS, OVER 200 TAX RETURNS. RETURNS. NOT JUST FROM TRUMP, ALSO FROM NOT JUST FROM TRUMP, ALSO FROM HIS FATHER, FROM HIS COMPANIES, HIS FATHER, FROM HIS COMPANIES, WHICH ARE BYZANTINE, AND OTHER WHICH ARE BYZANTINE, AND OTHER TRUMP ENTITIES. TRUMP ENTITIES. WHAT THEY SHOW IN THIS REPORT WHAT THEY SHOW IN THIS REPORT WHICH I THINK YOU’RE GOING TO BE WHICH I THINK YOU’RE GOING TO BE HEARING ABOUT FOR A WHILE IS HEARING ABOUT FOR A WHILE IS THAT TRUMP WAS HELPING HIS OWN THAT TRUMP WAS HELPING HIS OWN FAMILY, HIS PARENTS, DODGE FAMILY, HIS PARENTS, DODGE TAXES, THROUGH QUOTE A SHAM TAXES, THROUGH QUOTE A SHAM CORPORATION THAT WAS EXPLICITLY CORPORATION THAT WAS EXPLICITLY DESIGNED TO HIDE MILLIONS OF DESIGNED TO HIDE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, SOMETIMES IN GIFTS, AND DOLLARS, SOMETIMES IN GIFTS, AND THEN TAKE IMPROPER TAX THEN TAKE IMPROPER TAX DEDUCTIONS WORTH MILLIONS MORE. DEDUCTIONS WORTH MILLIONS MORE. AND THEN PUT TOGETHER A SCHEME AND THEN PUT TOGETHER A SCHEME TO UNDERVALUE, AGAIN GOING BACK TO UNDERVALUE, AGAIN GOING BACK TO MOM AND DAD’S MONEY, HIS TO MOM AND DAD’S MONEY, HIS PARENTS’ REAL ESTATE BY HUNDREDS PARENTS’ REAL ESTATE BY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ACCUMULATIVELY IN THESE RETURNS, ACCUMULATIVELY IN THESE RETURNS, WHICH WOULD REDUCE THE TAX BILL WHICH WOULD REDUCE THE TAX BILL THAT THEY’D PAY, THEN WHEN IT THAT THEY’D PAY, THEN WHEN IT PASSED TO THE FAMILY PASSED TO THE FAMILY INHERITANCE. INHERITANCE. "THE NEW YORK TIMES," WHICH HAS "THE NEW YORK TIMES," WHICH HAS TAKEN A BIG SWING HERE, FINDS TAKEN A BIG SWING HERE, FINDS THAT ALL TOLD, TRUMP EFFECTIVELY THAT ALL TOLD, TRUMP EFFECTIVELY GOT THE BONUS EQUIVALENT OF AT GOT THE BONUS EQUIVALENT OF AT LEAST FOR 413 MILLION IN TODAY’S LEAST FOR 413 MILLION IN TODAY’S MONEY ALL OF A THIS AND THAT MONEY ALL OF A THIS AND THAT UNDERCUTS THE KEY CLAIM THAT UNDERCUTS THE KEY CLAIM THAT DONALD TRUMP SAYS HE’S HE’S MADE DONALD TRUMP SAYS HE’S HE’S MADE HIS OWN FORTUNE. HIS OWN FORTUNE. >> IT’S NOT AN EASY FOR ME. >> IT’S NOT AN EASY FOR ME. I STARTED OFF IN BROOKLYN. I STARTED OFF IN BROOKLYN. MY FATHER GAVE ME A SMALL LOAN MY FATHER GAVE ME A SMALL LOAN OF $1 MILLION. OF $1 MILLION. I CAME INTO MANHATTAN AND I HAD I CAME INTO MANHATTAN AND I HAD TO PAY HIM BACK WITH INTEREST. TO PAY HIM BACK WITH INTEREST. >> HAD TO PAY HIM BACK FOR $1 >> HAD TO PAY HIM BACK FOR $1 MILLION. MILLION. IN A NEW STATEMENT DONALD IN A NEW STATEMENT DONALD TRUMP’S LAWYER IS CALLING THIS TRUMP’S LAWYER IS CALLING THIS STORY 100% FALSE AND HIGHLY STORY 100% FALSE AND HIGHLY DEFAMATORY. DEFAMATORY. JOHN HARWOOD, CNBC’S EDITOR JOHN HARWOOD, CNBC’S EDITOR LARGE, BILL KRISTOL, FOUNDER AND LARGE, BILL KRISTOL, FOUNDER AND EDITOR AT LARGE OF "THE WEEKLY EDITOR AT LARGE OF "THE WEEKLY STANDARD." STANDARD." THE BIG OUTLINES WHAT WAS THIS THE BIG OUTLINES WHAT WAS THIS IS, THEN WHAT IT DOES. IS, THEN WHAT IT DOES. JOHN HARWOOD, WHAT ELSE CAN YOU JOHN HARWOOD, WHAT ELSE CAN YOU TELL US TO HELP US UNDERSTAND TELL US TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT THE SCHEME WAS? WHAT THE SCHEME WAS? >> ESSENTIALLY, ARI, WHAT THE >> ESSENTIALLY, ARI, WHAT THE STORY LAYS OUT IS THE TRANSFER STORY LAYS OUT IS THE TRANSFER OF VAST AMOUNTS OF MONEY FROM OF VAST AMOUNTS OF MONEY FROM FRED TRUMP, HIS FATHER, TO FRED TRUMP, HIS FATHER, TO DONALD TRUMP. DONALD TRUMP. OTHER KIDS AS WELL. OTHER KIDS AS WELL. BUT DONALD TRUMP WAS ESPECIALLY BUT DONALD TRUMP WAS ESPECIALLY TAKEN CARE OF. TAKEN CARE OF. IT INCLUDES GETTING THOUSANDS OF IT INCLUDES GETTING THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS BEGINNING WHEN HE WAS A DOLLARS BEGINNING WHEN HE WAS A KID, THE MILLION DOLLARS BY THE KID, THE MILLION DOLLARS BY THE TIME -- A YEAR BY THE TIME HE TIME -- A YEAR BY THE TIME HE GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE. GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE. AND THE MOST SIGNIFICANT THINGS AND THE MOST SIGNIFICANT THINGS LATER IN LIFE HAVE TO DO WITH LATER IN LIFE HAVE TO DO WITH THE WAYS IN WHICH THE TRUMP THE WAYS IN WHICH THE TRUMP FAMILY EVADED ESTATE TAXES BY FAMILY EVADED ESTATE TAXES BY MESSING WITH THE VALUATIONS OF MESSING WITH THE VALUATIONS OF PROPERTIES THAT FRED TRUMP PROPERTIES THAT FRED TRUMP PASSED ON TO HIS KIDS SO AS TO PASSED ON TO HIS KIDS SO AS TO AVOID -- AVOID -- >> WHEN YOU SAY MESSING WITH THE >> WHEN YOU SAY MESSING WITH THE VALUATIONS, IS THAT WHAT NORMAL VALUATIONS, IS THAT WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE WOULD CALL LYING ABOUT PEOPLE WOULD CALL LYING ABOUT YOUR MONEY? YOUR MONEY? >> WELL, "THE TIMES" SAYS THAT >> WELL, "THE TIMES" SAYS THAT IN MANY CASES THIS INVOLVED IN MANY CASES THIS INVOLVED OUTRIGHT FRAUD. OUTRIGHT FRAUD. I THINK THEY DON’T MAKE THAT I THINK THEY DON’T MAKE THAT STATEMENT LIKELY, YOU HAD STATEMENT LIKELY, YOU HAD MULTIPLE REPORTERS MULTIPLE REPORTERS INVESTIGATING. INVESTIGATING. BUT IT HAD THE EFFECT OF BUT IT HAD THE EFFECT OF SHRINKING THE ESTATE TAX BILL SHRINKING THE ESTATE TAX BILL FOR FRED TRUMP’S ESTATE FROM FOR FRED TRUMP’S ESTATE FROM MORE THAN $500 MILLION TO ABOUT MORE THAN $500 MILLION TO ABOUT $50 MILLION. $50 MILLION. THE SECOND THING THAT HAPPENED THE SECOND THING THAT HAPPENED WAS THAT THERE WERE WAYS IN WAS THAT THERE WERE WAYS IN WHICH HE WAS SHOVELING MONEY TO WHICH HE WAS SHOVELING MONEY TO DONALD TRUMP, PUTTING BIG BETS DONALD TRUMP, PUTTING BIG BETS IN A TRUMP CASINO WITHOUT IN A TRUMP CASINO WITHOUT PLACING ANY BETS AS A WAY OF PLACING ANY BETS AS A WAY OF GETTING LAST-MINUTE CASH TO GETTING LAST-MINUTE CASH TO DONALD TRUMP THAT HE CREATED A DONALD TRUMP THAT HE CREATED A SHELL COMPANY TO INFLATE SHELL COMPANY TO INFLATE INVOICES FOR THE TRUMP REAL INVOICES FOR THE TRUMP REAL ESTATE EMPIRE AND MADE HIS ESTATE EMPIRE AND MADE HIS CHILDREN THE BENEFICIARIES OF CHILDREN THE BENEFICIARIES OF THE PROFITS OF THAT SHELL THE PROFITS OF THAT SHELL COMPANY. COMPANY. SO THAT IT WAS A WAY OF GETTING SO THAT IT WAS A WAY OF GETTING MONEY TO THEM WITHOUT INCURRING MONEY TO THEM WITHOUT INCURRING INCOME TAX LIABILITY. INCOME TAX LIABILITY. IT IS A WIDE RANGE OF POTENTIAL IT IS A WIDE RANGE OF POTENTIAL FRAUD THERE. FRAUD THERE. AND I WANT TO MENTION TWO THINGS AND I WANT TO MENTION TWO THINGS ABOUT IT. ABOUT IT. ONE, WE BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE ONE, WE BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS ON STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS ON POTENTIAL CRIMINAL CHARGES, BUT POTENTIAL CRIMINAL CHARGES, BUT THERE’S CIVIL LIABILITY IF NEW THERE’S CIVIL LIABILITY IF NEW YORK STATE TAX AUTHORITIES YORK STATE TAX AUTHORITIES DECIDE TO PROSECUTE. DECIDE TO PROSECUTE. OR TO PURSUE THEM. OR TO PURSUE THEM. AT A MUCH EARLIER PERIOD, NEW AT A MUCH EARLIER PERIOD, NEW YORK STATE AUTHORITIES WANTED TO YORK STATE AUTHORITIES WANTED TO TREAT DONALD TRUMP VERY WELL. TREAT DONALD TRUMP VERY WELL. IT WAS A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL IT WAS A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL ARRANGEMENT. ARRANGEMENT. THEY DON’T FEEL THAT WAY RIGHT THEY DON’T FEEL THAT WAY RIGHT NOW, SO THAT’S POTENTIALLY NOW, SO THAT’S POTENTIALLY SIGNIFICANT. SIGNIFICANT. >> I APPRECIATE YOU RAISING IT. >> I APPRECIATE YOU RAISING IT. WE’VE HIT THAT ON THE SHOW, AND WE’VE HIT THAT ON THE SHOW, AND HIT THE FACT, AND BILL AND I HIT THE FACT, AND BILL AND I TALKED ABOUT IT, A LOT OF TALKED ABOUT IT, A LOT OF DEMOCRATIC OFFICE HOLDERS IN NEW DEMOCRATIC OFFICE HOLDERS IN NEW YORK COZIED UP TO TRUMP WHEN HE YORK COZIED UP TO TRUMP WHEN HE WAS JUST ANOTHER BUSINESSMAN, WAS JUST ANOTHER BUSINESSMAN, AND THE QUESTION THAT I THINK AND THE QUESTION THAT I THINK NORMAL PEOPLE SAY WHEN YOU HEAR NORMAL PEOPLE SAY WHEN YOU HEAR THIS WAIT A MINUTE, WAS EVERYONE THIS WAIT A MINUTE, WAS EVERYONE ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL? ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL? IF ALL THIS IS DOCUMENTED YEAR IF ALL THIS IS DOCUMENTED YEAR AFTER YEAR AND IT STAYED IN AFTER YEAR AND IT STAYED IN FEDERAL? FEDERAL? THE ANSWER IS, YEAH, A LOT OF THE ANSWER IS, YEAH, A LOT OF PEOPLE WENT ALONG WITH THAT PEOPLE WENT ALONG WITH THAT CORRUPTION, WHICH I THINK IS BAD CORRUPTION, WHICH I THINK IS BAD FOR BOTH PARTIES. FOR BOTH PARTIES. YOU STAY, JOHN. YOU STAY, JOHN. I’M GOING TO MOT RATE MY WAY TO I’M GOING TO MOT RATE MY WAY TO THE OTHER GUEST AND COME BACK TO THE OTHER GUEST AND COME BACK TO YOU. YOU. BILL, MORE FROM THE PIECE FOR BILL, MORE FROM THE PIECE FOR YOUR ANALYSIS ON THE POLITICS OF YOUR ANALYSIS ON THE POLITICS OF SOMEONE WHO SAYS, I DID THIS ALL SOMEONE WHO SAYS, I DID THIS ALL MYSELF. MYSELF. THE PRESIDENT’S PARENTS, FRED THE PRESIDENT’S PARENTS, FRED AND MARY TRUMP, "THE TIMES" AND MARY TRUMP, "THE TIMES" REPORTS, TRANSFERRED OVER $1 REPORTS, TRANSFERRED OVER $1 BILLION OF WEALTH TO THEIR BILLION OF WEALTH TO THEIR CHILDREN WHICH COULD HAVE CHILDREN WHICH COULD HAVE PRODUCED A TAX BILL OF AT LEAST PRODUCED A TAX BILL OF AT LEAST $550 MILLION UNDER THE 55% RATE $550 MILLION UNDER THE 55% RATE BUT THE TRUMPS ACTUALLY PAID BUT THE TRUMPS ACTUALLY PAID ABOUT 5%, TAX RECORDS SHOW. ABOUT 5%, TAX RECORDS SHOW. BEFORE YOU EVEN GET TO DUCKING BEFORE YOU EVEN GET TO DUCKING FEDERAL TAXES, WHICH SOME PEOPLE FEDERAL TAXES, WHICH SOME PEOPLE AND CERTAINLY SOME REPUBLICANS AND CERTAINLY SOME REPUBLICANS SAY, WELL, HEY, I DON’T LIKE SAY, WELL, HEY, I DON’T LIKE TAXES. TAXES. HOW ABOUT THE NOTION THAT THIS HOW ABOUT THE NOTION THAT THIS GUY RAN FOR OFFICE AND RAN GUY RAN FOR OFFICE AND RAN AROUND THE PRIMARIES SAYING AROUND THE PRIMARIES SAYING THESE ARE ALL PHONY POLITICIANS, THESE ARE ALL PHONY POLITICIANS, I’M SELF-MADE. I’M SELF-MADE. I GOT 1 MILLION. I GOT 1 MILLION. A MILLION TO A BILL SEEMS LIKE A A MILLION TO A BILL SEEMS LIKE A BIG DIFFERENCE. BIG DIFFERENCE. >> I SPENT THE WHOLE PRIMARY >> I SPENT THE WHOLE PRIMARY SEASON THINKING TRUMP SEASON THINKING TRUMP UNIVERSITY -- THERE’S SO MANY UNIVERSITY -- THERE’S SO MANY FRAUDS, I DON’T USE THE TERM FRAUDS, I DON’T USE THE TERM LEGALLY BUT IN A COMMONSENSE WAY LEGALLY BUT IN A COMMONSENSE WAY THAT HE WAS INVOLVED IN, THAT HE WAS INVOLVED IN, DECEPTIONS AND UNSAVORY BUSINESS DECEPTIONS AND UNSAVORY BUSINESS PRACTICES THAT ONE THOUGHT THAT PRACTICES THAT ONE THOUGHT THAT WOULD HAVE DAMAGED HIM IN THE WOULD HAVE DAMAGED HIM IN THE PRIMARIES. PRIMARIES. MAYBE IT DID A TINY BIT. MAYBE IT DID A TINY BIT. BUT VOTERS DIDN’T SEEM TO CARE BUT VOTERS DIDN’T SEEM TO CARE MUCH. MUCH. I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, THEY I GUESS THE QUESTION IS, THEY MIGHT LOOK AT THIS AND YOUR MIGHT LOOK AT THIS AND YOUR POINT ABOUT SO MANY BUSINESSMEN POINT ABOUT SO MANY BUSINESSMEN BEING TREATED THIS WAY BY NEW BEING TREATED THIS WAY BY NEW YORK STATE AUTHORITIES, WHAT IS YORK STATE AUTHORITIES, WHAT IS IT THAT’S SAID, THE ORIGIN OF IT THAT’S SAID, THE ORIGIN OF EVERY GREAT FORTUNE IS A CRIME. EVERY GREAT FORTUNE IS A CRIME. YOU WONDER IF YOU TURN OVER THE YOU WONDER IF YOU TURN OVER THE ROCK, HOW MANY WOULD BE -- THIS ROCK, HOW MANY WOULD BE -- THIS SEEMS A LITTLE EXCEPTIONAL, I SEEMS A LITTLE EXCEPTIONAL, I WOULD SAY, NOT TO SOUND LIKE WOULD SAY, NOT TO SOUND LIKE SOME SOCIALIST OR SOMETHING, BUT SOME SOCIALIST OR SOMETHING, BUT YOU DO -- IT IS A CERTAIN SIDE YOU DO -- IT IS A CERTAIN SIDE OF AMERICAN CAPITALISM THAT ONE OF AMERICAN CAPITALISM THAT ONE ISN’T PROUD OF. ISN’T PROUD OF. FOR ME THE BIG STORY IS, YOU FOR ME THE BIG STORY IS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE KNOW, PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE ACCUMULATED THEIR FORTUNES IN ACCUMULATED THEIR FORTUNES IN UNSAVORY WAYS, WHAT ABOUT TODAY? UNSAVORY WAYS, WHAT ABOUT TODAY? WHAT ABOUT WHAT HE’S DOING AS WHAT ABOUT WHAT HE’S DOING AS PRESIDENT? PRESIDENT? HAS HE SEVERED HIS TIES WITH THE HAS HE SEVERED HIS TIES WITH THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION? TRUMP ORGANIZATION? >> NO. >> NO. >> DOESN’T SEEM SO. >> DOESN’T SEEM SO. HAS HE RELEASED HIS CURRENT TAX HAS HE RELEASED HIS CURRENT TAX RETURNS? RETURNS? LET’S NOT GO BACK 20 YEARS, TO LET’S NOT GO BACK 20 YEARS, TO HIS FATHER. HIS FATHER. ACTUAL REALITY? ACTUAL REALITY? THERE REMAINS GREAT THERE REMAINS GREAT VULNERABILITY FOR TRUMP. VULNERABILITY FOR TRUMP. >> I WANT TO BE CLEAR. >> I WANT TO BE CLEAR. YOU’RE A GUEST AND YOU’LL TAKE YOU’RE A GUEST AND YOU’LL TAKE WHATEVER POSITION YOU TAKE. WHATEVER POSITION YOU TAKE. IN MY LINE OF QUESTIONING, I AM IN MY LINE OF QUESTIONING, I AM QUESTIONING HIS LATE FATHER, I QUESTIONING HIS LATE FATHER, I AM QUESTIONING THE WAY THAT THIS AM QUESTIONING THE WAY THAT THIS INDIVIDUAL TOOK SO MUCH MONEY INDIVIDUAL TOOK SO MUCH MONEY FROM HIS OPEN PARENTS AND, FROM HIS OPEN PARENTS AND, ACCORDING TO THE "TIMES," HAS ACCORDING TO THE "TIMES," HAS BEEN LYING ABOUT IT, JOHN BEEN LYING ABOUT IT, JOHN HARWOOD. HARWOOD. BECAUSE IT’S PART OF EITHER HIS BECAUSE IT’S PART OF EITHER HIS NATURAL TICK, BECAUSE HE WAS NATURAL TICK, BECAUSE HE WAS LIKE THIS LONG BEFORE HE WAS A LIKE THIS LONG BEFORE HE WAS A CANDIDATE, AND BECAUSE HE CANDIDATE, AND BECAUSE HE RECOGNIZED THIS WAS HIS KEY RECOGNIZED THIS WAS HIS KEY POINT OF APPEAL TO FOLKS WHO POINT OF APPEAL TO FOLKS WHO SAID, I MAY NOT LIKE THIS, THAT, SAID, I MAY NOT LIKE THIS, THAT, BUT I LOVE THAT HE’S A SELF-MADE BUT I LOVE THAT HE’S A SELF-MADE GUY WHO CAN DO FOR AMERICA WHAT GUY WHO CAN DO FOR AMERICA WHAT HE DID FOR TRUMP ORG. HE DID FOR TRUMP ORG. WELL, THAT WOULD BE, ACCORDING WELL, THAT WOULD BE, ACCORDING TO THIS CALCULUS THAT WOULD BE TO THIS CALCULUS THAT WOULD BE GETTING GREAT BRITAIN TO GIVE US GETTING GREAT BRITAIN TO GIVE US A BUNCH OF MONEY IF HE’S GOING A BUNCH OF MONEY IF HE’S GOING TO DO FOR AMERICA WHAT HE DID TO DO FOR AMERICA WHAT HE DID FOR HIMSELF. FOR HIMSELF. >> WELL, WHAT I WOULD SAY, ARI, >> WELL, WHAT I WOULD SAY, ARI, IS THAT THE NOTION OF DONALD IS THAT THE NOTION OF DONALD TRUMP AS A SELF-MADE BILLIONAIRE TRUMP AS A SELF-MADE BILLIONAIRE WAS FOUNDATIONAL TO HIS RISE IN WAS FOUNDATIONAL TO HIS RISE IN POLITIC POLITIC POLITICS. POLITICS. BUT I DO THINK THAT ONCE HE BUT I DO THINK THAT ONCE HE BECAME A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, BECAME A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, BILL MENTIONS THE TRUMP BILL MENTIONS THE TRUMP UNIVERSITY. UNIVERSITY. IT HAS BEEN WIDELY KNOWN THAT IT HAS BEEN WIDELY KNOWN THAT THERE WERE SOME SHADY BUSINESS THERE WERE SOME SHADY BUSINESS PRACTICES AROUND DONALD TRUMP PRACTICES AROUND DONALD TRUMP EVEN DURING THE CAMPAIGN AND EVEN DURING THE CAMPAIGN AND SINCE THEN. SINCE THEN. A LOT OF CASH TRANSACTIONS FOR A LOT OF CASH TRANSACTIONS FOR REAL ESTATE. REAL ESTATE. PEOPLE, A MAJORITY OF AMERICAN PEOPLE, A MAJORITY OF AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE CONSIDERED TRUMP PEOPLE HAVE CONSIDERED TRUMP DISHONEST THROUGHOUT HIS DISHONEST THROUGHOUT HIS PRESIDENCY. PRESIDENCY. I THINK MORE RECENTLY HIS I THINK MORE RECENTLY HIS POLITICAL APPEAL IS GROUNDED IN POLITICAL APPEAL IS GROUNDED IN HIS CHOICE OF ENEMIES. HIS CHOICE OF ENEMIES. THE PEOPLE HE GOES AFTER. THE PEOPLE HE GOES AFTER. GOING AFTER IMMIGRANTS, GOING GOING AFTER IMMIGRANTS, GOING AFTER AFRICAN-AMERICAN ATHLETES, AFTER AFRICAN-AMERICAN ATHLETES, PROTESTING RACIAL INJUSTICE. PROTESTING RACIAL INJUSTICE. SO I’M NOT SAYING THAT THIS SO I’M NOT SAYING THAT THIS ISN’T GOING TO HAVE SOME IMPACT, ISN’T GOING TO HAVE SOME IMPACT, BUT I’M NOT SURE HOW GREAT OF AN BUT I’M NOT SURE HOW GREAT OF AN IMPACT IT WILL HAVE. IMPACT IT WILL HAVE. I WILL MENTION ONE OTHER I WILL MENTION ONE OTHER VULNERABILITY. VULNERABILITY. ONE PERSON WHO APPEARS IN THIS ONE PERSON WHO APPEARS IN THIS STORY AT SOME OF THE CRITICAL STORY AT SOME OF THE CRITICAL EVENTS IS ALAN WEISSELBERG, EVENTS IS ALAN WEISSELBERG, LONG-TIME BUSINESS MANAGER OF LONG-TIME BUSINESS MANAGER OF THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION. THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION. HE IS COOPERATING WITH THE HE IS COOPERATING WITH THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK AND HAS IN THE INVESTIGATION OF AND HAS IN THE INVESTIGATION OF MICHAEL COHEN. MICHAEL COHEN. IF THERE IS GOING TO BE ANY IF THERE IS GOING TO BE ANY CURRENT INVESTIGATION THAT CURRENT INVESTIGATION THAT REACHES BACK INTO THE ORIGINS OF REACHES BACK INTO THE ORIGINS OF THE TRUMP FORTUNE, ALAN THE TRUMP FORTUNE, ALAN WEISSELBERG MAY KNOW A LOT ABOUT WEISSELBERG MAY KNOW A LOT ABOUT IT AND MAY BE IN A POSITION TO IT AND MAY BE IN A POSITION TO HURT DONALD TRUMP BY SHARING HURT DONALD TRUMP BY SHARING INFORMATION. INFORMATION. >> A KEY SOURCE. >> A KEY SOURCE. BILL KRISTOL, BEFORE I TURN TO BILL KRISTOL, BEFORE I TURN TO TONY SCHWARTZ, COAUTHOR OF "THE TONY SCHWARTZ, COAUTHOR OF "THE DEAL" FOR MORE CONTEXT, YOU DEAL" FOR MORE CONTEXT, YOU MENTIONED TRUMP UNIVERSITY. MENTIONED TRUMP UNIVERSITY. WHICH WAS A BUSINESS THAT MADE WHICH WAS A BUSINESS THAT MADE ITS MONEY GIVING BUSINESS ADVICE ITS MONEY GIVING BUSINESS ADVICE AND WENT OUT OF BUSINESS. AND WENT OUT OF BUSINESS. I WONDER WHETHER THERE’S AN I WONDER WHETHER THERE’S AN ANALOGY TO SOME REPUBLICAN TRUMP ANALOGY TO SOME REPUBLICAN TRUMP VOTERS. VOTERS. THE PEOPLE WHO WENT TO TRUMP THE PEOPLE WHO WENT TO TRUMP UNIVERSITY WERE HUGE TRUMP UNIVERSITY WERE HUGE TRUMP BELIEVERS R. THEY PUT MONEY BELIEVERS R. THEY PUT MONEY DOWN. DOWN. SOME OF THEM CAME BACK AROUND TO SOME OF THEM CAME BACK AROUND TO SAY AND REALIZE THEY WERE SAY AND REALIZE THEY WERE CONNED. CONNED. IS THERE ANY COROLLARY HERE? IS THERE ANY COROLLARY HERE? >> THAT’S WHAT WAS SO SHOCKING >> THAT’S WHAT WAS SO SHOCKING ABOUT IT. ABOUT IT. THIS WAS A CON, EXECUTED AGAINST THIS WAS A CON, EXECUTED AGAINST PRECISELY THE KIND OF VOTERS PRECISELY THE KIND OF VOTERS TRUMP IS APPEALING TO, NOT SO TRUMP IS APPEALING TO, NOT SO WELL EDUCATED, TRYING TO MAKE WELL EDUCATED, TRYING TO MAKE THEIR WAY UP, GLAMOROUS GUY’S THEIR WAY UP, GLAMOROUS GUY’S GOING TO HELP YOU FIND THE GOING TO HELP YOU FIND THE SECRETS TO SUCCESS, TAKING YOUR SECRETS TO SUCCESS, TAKING YOUR MONEY. MONEY. HE DIDN’T PAY MUCH OF A PRICE HE DIDN’T PAY MUCH OF A PRICE FOR IT. FOR IT. I GUESS I WORRY THAT IF TRUMP -- I GUESS I WORRY THAT IF TRUMP -- WE’VE BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH NOW, WE’VE BEEN THROUGH SO MUCH NOW, THAT TRUMP SUPPORTERS HAVE THAT TRUMP SUPPORTERS HAVE INTERNALIZED -- THEY’LL THINK, INTERNALIZED -- THEY’LL THINK, HEY, HE CONNED THEM ALL, GOOD HEY, HE CONNED THEM ALL, GOOD FOR HIM, HE KEPT MONEY AWAY FROM FOR HIM, HE KEPT MONEY AWAY FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HE TOOK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HE TOOK MONEY AWAY FROM HIS RIVALS, HIS MONEY AWAY FROM HIS RIVALS, HIS FATHER WAS A CONNING GUY TOO, WE FATHER WAS A CONNING GUY TOO, WE NEED SOMEONE LIKE THAT AS NEED SOMEONE LIKE THAT AS PRESIDENT, HE CAN CULT GOOD PRESIDENT, HE CAN CULT GOOD DEALS WITH TRADE RIVALS, STAND DEALS WITH TRADE RIVALS, STAND UP TO THE DEMOCRATS. UP TO THE DEMOCRATS. I DO WORRY. I DO WORRY. LOOK, FANTASTIC REPORTING AND LOOK, FANTASTIC REPORTING AND IT’S KIND OF SHOCKING TO READ IT’S KIND OF SHOCKING TO READ IT, BUT I DO WORRY IT WON’T HAVE IT, BUT I DO WORRY IT WON’T HAVE AS MUCH POLITICAL EFFECT AS AS MUCH POLITICAL EFFECT AS PEOPLE MIGHT HOPE. PEOPLE MIGHT HOPE. >> I APPRECIATE THAT NOTE OF >> I APPRECIATE THAT NOTE OF NIHILISM BEFORE I LET YOU GO. NIHILISM BEFORE I LET YOU GO. JOHN HAR WAD, BILL CRASS TALL, JOHN HAR WAD, BILL CRASS TALL, IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, THANK YOU. IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, THANK YOU. >>> AS PROMISED TONY SCHWARTZ, >>> AS PROMISED TONY SCHWARTZ, COAUTHOR OF "THE ART OF THE COAUTHOR OF "THE ART OF THE DEAL," CEO OF THE ENERGY DEAL," CEO OF THE ENERGY PROJECT, FRIEND OF "THE BEAT" PROJECT, FRIEND OF "THE BEAT" WHO’S WEIGHED IN ON SOME OF WHO’S WEIGHED IN ON SOME OF THESE STORIES. THESE STORIES. YOUR SPIRIT TEASE AS SOMEONE YOUR SPIRIT TEASE AS SOMEONE WHO’S BEEN AROUND DONALD TRUMP, WHO’S BEEN AROUND DONALD TRUMP, SO CLOSELY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT A SO CLOSELY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT A STORY OF THAT MAGNITUDE. STORY OF THAT MAGNITUDE. WHAT DO YOU THINK? WHAT DO YOU THINK? >> TWO THINGS. >> TWO THINGS. ONE, SINCE 2016, I’VE FELT AND ONE, SINCE 2016, I’VE FELT AND I’VE SAID ON YOUR SHOW THAT I’VE SAID ON YOUR SHOW THAT THERE WILL COME A MOMENT WHERE THERE WILL COME A MOMENT WHERE TAX FRAUD AND MONEY LAUNDERING TAX FRAUD AND MONEY LAUNDERING WILL BE DONALD TRUMP’S BIGGEST WILL BE DONALD TRUMP’S BIGGEST PROBLEM, EVEN BIGGER THAN PROBLEM, EVEN BIGGER THAN COLLUSION AND CONSPIRACY. COLLUSION AND CONSPIRACY. AND THAT HAS COME TRUE NOW. AND THAT HAS COME TRUE NOW. THE SECOND THING IS THAT IT GOES THE SECOND THING IS THAT IT GOES FAR BEYOND EVEN WHEN I THOUGHT FAR BEYOND EVEN WHEN I THOUGHT HAD HAPPENED. HAD HAPPENED. >> THIS IS WORSE TAN WHAT YOU >> THIS IS WORSE TAN WHAT YOU KNEW TO BE THE CASE? KNEW TO BE THE CASE? >> OH MY GOD, I KNEW IT WAS BAD, >> OH MY GOD, I KNEW IT WAS BAD, BUT I DIDN’T BELIEVE -- THIS IS BUT I DIDN’T BELIEVE -- THIS IS A MAN WHO TOOK HUNDREDS OF A MAN WHO TOOK HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OR MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OR FRAUDULENTLY TOOK HUNDREDS OF FRAUDULENTLY TOOK HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, AND WHEN MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, AND WHEN HIS FATHER WAS 85 AND NEAR HIS FATHER WAS 85 AND NEAR SENILE, TRIED TO WRITE A CODICIL SENILE, TRIED TO WRITE A CODICIL TO HIS WILL TO TAKE OVER TO HIS WILL TO TAKE OVER COMPLETE CONTROL OF HIS EMPIRE. COMPLETE CONTROL OF HIS EMPIRE. WHY? WHY? BECAUSE FRED TRUMP WAS IN THE BECAUSE FRED TRUMP WAS IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING MONEY, AND BUSINESS OF MAKING MONEY, AND DONALD TRUMP WAS IN THE BUSINESS DONALD TRUMP WAS IN THE BUSINESS OF LOSING MONEY. OF LOSING MONEY. AND HE LOST MONEY OF FRED’S. AND HE LOST MONEY OF FRED’S. THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER. THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER. IT’S LIKE THE COVER HAS BEEN IT’S LIKE THE COVER HAS BEEN RIPPED OFF THIS MAN. RIPPED OFF THIS MAN. WHATEVER MYTH THERE WAS, AS YOU WHATEVER MYTH THERE WAS, AS YOU SAID EARLIER, THAT HE WAS A SAID EARLIER, THAT HE WAS A SELF-MADE MAN, OR THAT HE WAS SELF-MADE MAN, OR THAT HE WAS EVEN A LEGITIMATE BUSINESSMAN, EVEN A LEGITIMATE BUSINESSMAN, IS GONE FOREVER. IS GONE FOREVER. >> RIGHT. >> RIGHT. THAT’S A MYTHOLOGY THAT IS THAT’S A MYTHOLOGY THAT IS IMPORTANT TO HIS PUBLIC PROFILE, IMPORTANT TO HIS PUBLIC PROFILE, BUT ALSO GOES TO WHO HE IS AS BUT ALSO GOES TO WHO HE IS AS SOMEONE IN HIS FATHER’S SHADOW. SOMEONE IN HIS FATHER’S SHADOW. I SHOULD SAY, AS HE PUT IT OR I SHOULD SAY, AS HE PUT IT OR YOU PUT IT, ONE NEVER KNOWS WHEN YOU PUT IT, ONE NEVER KNOWS WHEN IT COMES TO THE BOOK BUT I’LL IT COMES TO THE BOOK BUT I’LL READ FROM IT. READ FROM IT. "I ALSO REALIZE IF I EVER WANTED "I ALSO REALIZE IF I EVER WANTED TO BE KNOWN AS MORE THAN FRED TO BE KNOWN AS MORE THAN FRED TRUMP’S SON I WAS EVENTUALLY TRUMP’S SON I WAS EVENTUALLY GOING TO HAVE TO GO OUT AND MAKE GOING TO HAVE TO GO OUT AND MAKE MY OWN MARK." MY OWN MARK." THAT’S FROM "THE ART OF THE THAT’S FROM "THE ART OF THE DEAL." DEAL." HOW IMPORTANT WAS THAT INTERPLAY HOW IMPORTANT WAS THAT INTERPLAY THAT EVEN BEFORE THERE WERE THAT EVEN BEFORE THERE WERE OTHER POTENTIAL BENEFITS TO OTHER POTENTIAL BENEFITS TO EXAGGERATING HIS OWN ROLE IN EXAGGERATING HIS OWN ROLE IN THIS, HE ALWAYS DID YOU FIND THIS, HE ALWAYS DID YOU FIND FELT HE NEEDED TO AVOID FELT HE NEEDED TO AVOID CREDITING HIS FATHER FOR WHAT CREDITING HIS FATHER FOR WHAT THE "TIMES" SAYS TONIGHT WAS THE "TIMES" SAYS TONIGHT WAS BASICALLY A BILLION TO HIM? BASICALLY A BILLION TO HIM? >> HAVE FELT AND SAID FOREVER, >> HAVE FELT AND SAID FOREVER, AS LONG AS I’VE KNOWN TRUMP, AS LONG AS I’VE KNOWN TRUMP, WHICH IS MORE THAN 30 YEARS, WHICH IS MORE THAN 30 YEARS, THAT THIS IS A MAN WHO AS BLACK THAT THIS IS A MAN WHO AS BLACK HOLE. HOLE. WHO IS A BLACK HOLE, AND FEELS WHO IS A BLACK HOLE, AND FEELS IN EVERY MOMENT LIKE A FRAUD. IN EVERY MOMENT LIKE A FRAUD. WHAT COMES OUT TONIGHT IS HE HAD WHAT COMES OUT TONIGHT IS HE HAD GOOD REASON TO FEEL LIKE HE WAS GOOD REASON TO FEEL LIKE HE WAS A FRAUD. A FRAUD. HE WAS A FRAUD. HE WAS A FRAUD. AND HE WAS COMMITTING FRAUD, AND HE WAS COMMITTING FRAUD, FRAUDULENT -- HE WAS BEING FRAUDULENT -- HE WAS BEING FRAUDULENT. FRAUDULENT. AND HERE IT IS IN LIVING COLOR. AND HERE IT IS IN LIVING COLOR. OR IN BLACK AND WHITE, SINCE OR IN BLACK AND WHITE, SINCE IT’S IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES," A IT’S IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES," A BRILLIANT PIECE OF REPORTING. BRILLIANT PIECE OF REPORTING. I THINK DONALD TRUMP SITTING IN I THINK DONALD TRUMP SITTING IN THE WHITE HOUSE TONIGHT IS THE WHITE HOUSE TONIGHT IS PROBABLY FEELING MORE ENRAGED BY PROBABLY FEELING MORE ENRAGED BY THIS THAN BY VIRTUALLY ANYTHING THIS THAN BY VIRTUALLY ANYTHING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO HIM. THAT EVER HAPPENED TO HIM. >> YOU MENTIONED THAT IN THE >> YOU MENTIONED THAT IN THE ARTICLE. ARTICLE. IT SAYS FROM "THE TIMES," THE IT SAYS FROM "THE TIMES," THE PRESIDENT DECLINED REPEATED PRESIDENT DECLINED REPEATED REQUESTS OVER SEVERAL WEEKS TO REQUESTS OVER SEVERAL WEEKS TO ADDRESS ANYTHING IN THIS ADDRESS ANYTHING IN THIS ARTICLE. ARTICLE. THIS IS AN EXHAUSTIVE PIECE. THIS IS AN EXHAUSTIVE PIECE. I WANT TO PLAY DONALD TRUMP I WANT TO PLAY DONALD TRUMP TALKING ABOUT HOW SELF-MADE HE’S TALKING ABOUT HOW SELF-MADE HE’S ALWAYS BEEN, TAKE A LOOK. ALWAYS BEEN, TAKE A LOOK. >> YOU SEE, I BUILT WHAT I BUILT >> YOU SEE, I BUILT WHAT I BUILT MYSELF. MYSELF. AND I DID IT BY WORKING LONG AND I DID IT BY WORKING LONG HOURS AND WORKING HARD AND HOURS AND WORKING HARD AND WORKING SMART. WORKING SMART. MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN ANYTHING MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN ANYTHING ELSE IS BY USING MY OWN BRAIN. ELSE IS BY USING MY OWN BRAIN. >> THIS IS A MAN WHO INVENTED >> THIS IS A MAN WHO INVENTED HIMSELF. HIMSELF. THAT’S HIS CLAIM TO FAME. THAT’S HIS CLAIM TO FAME. HE LITERALLY INVENTED IT FROM HE LITERALLY INVENTED IT FROM WHOLE CLOTH. WHOLE CLOTH. THERE’S NOTHING ABOUT HIM THAT THERE’S NOTHING ABOUT HIM THAT IS REAL. IS REAL. NOW WE REALLY SEE THAT. NOW WE REALLY SEE THAT. AND IT’S EXTRAORDINARY. AND IT’S EXTRAORDINARY. I DON’T AGREE WITH BILL KRISTOL, I DON’T AGREE WITH BILL KRISTOL, I THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAVE A I THINK THIS IS GOING TO HAVE A VERY SIGNIFICANT, LONG TRAIL. VERY SIGNIFICANT, LONG TRAIL. NO ONE WANTS TO SAY ANYMORE THAT NO ONE WANTS TO SAY ANYMORE THAT TRUMP HAS FINALLY BEEN CAUGHT, TRUMP HAS FINALLY BEEN CAUGHT, THAT THE TEFLON HAS FINALLY BEEN THAT THE TEFLON HAS FINALLY BEEN SCRATCHED. SCRATCHED. BUT I HAVE TO SAY THE IDEA OF BUT I HAVE TO SAY THE IDEA OF WHO DONALD TRUMP WAS THAT WHO DONALD TRUMP WAS THAT EXISTED UNTIL TODAY IS GONE EXISTED UNTIL TODAY IS GONE FOREVER. FOREVER. >> I THINK THAT’S SIGNIFICANT. >> I THINK THAT’S SIGNIFICANT. I THINK A PIECE OF THIS DETAIL I THINK A PIECE OF THIS DETAIL AND DEPTH WHICH EVERYONE IS AND DEPTH WHICH EVERYONE IS STILL GOING TO CONTINUE TO STILL GOING TO CONTINUE TO DIGEST OVER THE NIGHT AND COMING DIGEST OVER THE NIGHT AND COMING DAYS REALLY GOES TO THE HEART OF DAYS REALLY GOES TO THE HEART OF NOT ONLY WHERE HE CAME FROM, BUT NOT ONLY WHERE HE CAME FROM, BUT WHERE IS HE TODAY? WHERE IS HE TODAY? AND IS HE MORE IN DEBT THAN HE AND IS HE MORE IN DEBT THAN HE ACKNOWLEDGES? ACKNOWLEDGES? IS THAT PART OF WHY THE TAXES IS THAT PART OF WHY THE TAXES AREN’T THERE? AREN’T THERE? AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BEATING AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT BEATING UP ON FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE UP ON FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE DECEASED OR ANYTHING OF THAT DECEASED OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE. NATURE. IT IS ABOUT THE MYSTERY AND WHAT IT IS ABOUT THE MYSTERY AND WHAT THE "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTS IS THE "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTS IS THE FRAUD AT THE HEART OF A THE FRAUD AT THE HEART OF A FINANCIAL EMPIRE THAT IS FINANCIAL EMPIRE THAT IS COEXISTING WITH A PRESIDENCY
