Not Homosexuality, Not Heterosexuality, but HOLY sexuality: Interview with Christopher Yuan

Christopher yuan have you ever wondered what is the best way to articulate a biblical view of sexuality today how do we respond to many of the tough questions that are being raised today about the larger LGBTQ conversation if these are questions that you've had you are in the right place because I am I have the privilege of having my dear friend Christopher yuan who's the author and book that I think is one of the most important books today called Holy sexuality and the gospel in terms of how do we present a biblical view of sexuality Christopher thanks so much for joining us tonight this is a treat yeah thanks for having me on Sean yeah you bet we're gonna jump in your story and I've got lined up some of the toughest questions that I get asked all the time I want to ask you and get your thoughts on this but first if you're watching and you are new to the channel push the subscribe button because you will not want to miss some of the interviews we have come up with Steven Mayer with oz Guinness and with some other leading Christian thinkers in partnership with Biola apologetics well Christopher we've been friends for a number of years and one of the things that I just when I first heard about you really kind of moved me to tears was your story to the Christian faith and that gives you a lot of just credibility and experience to speak on the issue of sexuality so would you be willing to start by just sharing your story to faith sure love to Sean I was not raised in a Christian home but I wrestled with my sexuality from a pretty young age just happened to come across pornography or around when I was 9 and that was the first time that I recognized I had these these temptations these desires but I kept those hidden I came out in my early 20s to my parents and we weren't Christian and they the timing really was just was really bad my parents marriage was a disaster they actually were about to get a divorce my mom she actually gave me an ultimatum she's good she said you either got to choose the family or choose this Wow well for me this was not a choice when I told my mom if you can't extend you have no other choice but to leave so I left home I was actually pursuing my doctorate in dentistry I'm from Chicago I was living in Louisville at that time and a devastated my parents but amazingly God used that crisis to bring my mother to faith first and then my father I went the opposite direction while I was in dental school I was doing all you know just what my other friends are doing partying having fun going to the clubs unfortunately I started doing drugs again not not not everyone is like me so this is not every gay man's story here but it unfortunately is my story I started experimenting with drugs I actually started selling drugs I was expelled from dental school then moved from Louisville to Kentucky I'm sorry for Louisville to Atlanta to Atlanta I just kept doing what I knew how to do best and that was have fun sell drugs actually I began supplying drugs to other dealers and over a dozen states and this whole time my parents had no clue that I was doing drugs well they knew my biggest need was know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior they tried to reach out to me they actually came to visi well this would be one time kick them out and you know the interesting thing was they they weren't preaching at me they weren't telling me I was living in sin I knew what they believe but they weren't preaching that at mean they weren't hitting me over there with the Bible but just the fact that God had so radically transformed their lives that they radiated Christ that was offensive to me told him get out and you know we hear the narrative Shawn that Christian parents evangelical Christian Bible believing Christian parents cannot love their gay children well I had the exact opposite experience Wow my parents were not Christian and they couldn't find in themselves to accept me to love me it was only until they became followers of Christ that they knew that they could do nothing other than love me as Jesus loved me while we were sinners so wow I kicked them out my dad gave me his Bible I threw in the trash can that's how much I despise God you know Christianity all of that and my parents knew that it was just it was hopeless and my parents my mother prayed a bold prayer God do whatever it takes to bring this brother son to you she fasted every Monday for seven years she once fasted 39 days on my she prayed for a miracle and that came with my arrest I was you know on my door you know someone banged on my door and it was it was 12 Federal Drug Enforcement agents and Atlanta police they confiscated my money my drugs and I was charged with the equivalent of 9.1 tons of marijuana so I was facing 10 years to life with with that what year was this roughly this was 1998 okay okay 98 so and I I found myself in jail someplace I thought I'd never be I you know I was walking on their cell block I and I saw this trash can and I'm like this is my life hmm what was about to walk by and I saw something on top of it bend over picked it up and was a Gideon's New Testament took him back to my cell and I began reading it and at first he was not good news for me because he was telling me that I'd rebelled against my government my parents and God and I thought this is not good news well it got worse I was called to the nurse's office and the nurse gave him the news that I was HIV positive Wow so I was that was rock bottom now Christopher Christopher what year was this that you got that news because my son who's 15 I've had to explain to him how serious the HIV viruses it's been lost on this younger generation but years ago probably in your mind was this is a death sentence right is that yeah 98 so that was I would say the early 90s and mid 90s was just you know I knew so many of my own friends that just died from the virus from AIDS they died even just from all the medications how toxic they were and by 98 was when I found out things were becoming better they were finding that a lot of these better medications so but still all I knew were I mean how I had you know over a dozen friends that had died of AIDS and I knew personal Wow and so for me it wasn't was it was a death sentence and so I was back in my cell a couple weeks a couple days after that and I looked up in the metal bunk above made somebody to scribble something in it read if you're bored read Jeremiah 29:11 for I know the plans that I have for you declares the Lord plans to prosper you not to harm you plans to give you in the future and I don't know where that plan was gonna take me but God gave me enough faith enough strength to get through that one day in the next in the next so kind of this transformation was gradual I wish I could say said sinner's prayer and poof you know Here I am no problems that wasn't the case God began convicting on my dependencies obviously drugs but then a few months he delivered me from that addiction God kept bringing in my degree its other idols and there's one thing that I felt like I just gonna let go of my sexuality so I started reading the Bible and I realized that I had put my sexuality in the wrong thing and I realized that I need to put my identity not in my sexuality because I always said this is who I am but I realized that God created us in his own image and then when you become a follower of Christ you become a son of God a daughter of God a child of God and so that is Who I am that was so key for me and also I realized that this paradigm that we built this heterosexual bisexual homosexual paradigm that seems to be the Oh like we pigeon-holed ourselves into that paradigm is is all we have but as I read through God's Word I realized that that no God calls us to holiness so I came up with this concept I called holy sexuality and so I introduced that in my older book that I wrote with my mom co-authored with her and I knew that I needed to flesh that out that God called me God called you got called everyone to holiness chastity and singleness or faithfulness in marriage so I ended up serving prison and I got I was supposed to get 10 years to life I got six years miraculously God showed my sin from six years to reasons and then I actually applied to a Bible College from mood from prison so I got from prison to moody's a lot of people I like and all those rules I don't know if I Ola you know because there was a time book you know I think moody and vital that kind of moved over the years you know out of kind of all the rules yes but I'm like while I went to prison to moody I mean like I could to leave my room whenever I want this is great so went on the Moody and I'd get my masters and then finished my doctorate and then wrote my book my mom and so here I am talking on fidelity now part of your story was you've told me that one of the last remaining things you became a believer was this issue of sexuality and a chaplain gave you a book saying that the Bible is fine with homosexual behavior you wanted to believe this without any theological training you didn't buy it and I get that right well you know I even look back at it now and I'm thinking it's it was almost it to me tea I see that from my perspective now as a miracle everything inside of me wanted to affirm what that book is claiming see so so the story was I heard with this chaplain and I told him you know this is you know is this sin I told him about my past I hadn't told anyone else in prison because I didn't want it to be out in the open and you know who knew what's gonna happen to me if I was over not much remedy in prison so didn't tell anyone but I told the the chaplain and I figured he would not tell people and he he actually told me that he said the bible does not condemn homosexuality went to his bookshelf gave me a book and he said here this book explains that view and I'm like great man I can have my cake and eat it too I mean this no no God loves me this is who I am and I started reading it the problem was I had my Bible right next to it so I open I had this book and again that's a miracle I mean see that's that's a problem I think many people are reading their books reading these books written read by these really winsome guys and it's written very well and it's easy to read and yet the Bible's not open next I read literally he was this book and the other book it was a John Boswell book not his big thick one but it yes it was in I think medieval same-sex relationships in medieval antiquity I can't remember the exact title but it's similar to that that open the Bible open and I began going back and forth every time he'd mentioned a passage I'd go back to the Bible and it's just you know I had it I've never taken a Bible class in my whole life but I've been to college I've been to graduate school and I can read I mean I it's just here Hamid you know interpretation and and I just read and I was like well let me read the whole context of the chapter of the book I'm like that's not what this passage is saying and I couldn't even get through the whole book and I gave it back to the chaplain so I'm like man I've got this decision I gotta make either abandon God in his word live as a gay man pursuing monogamous same-sex relationship or abandon pursuing a monogamous saying such a lay ship and how do I do that by free myself from my sexuality by not allowing my desires to control who I am didn't dictate who I am and how I live and live as a follower of Christ well this is a very politically incorrect message that you are preaching today but ultimately and this is what I love about your book I recommend it every chance I get is you're telling people you know what let's go back to what scripture says that needs to be our guide and I love that now I see some comments coming up here which is great as we get through the interview if there's some comments questions you have for Christopher Ewan we will ask those to him as we move through so go ahead and post those there would be great now the week before quarantine I had a group of high school students I think about 20 high school students we're at Berkeley and I did a gospel presentation of Berkeley and one of the questions came up as best I remember it was how if I believe in a god that's love how can I be against same-sex sexual relationships that are loving how could a loving God resist this what would you say in an audience like Berkeley where there are some Christians and certainly many non-christians there as well how would you approach that well I think it's it's actually helping us have a better understanding of love we think that marriage has a monopoly on love hmm and it doesn't it's not you know so many people maybe they'll get married in the 20s now it seems like many people are getting married little older in their 30s so no one believes that up until you get that piece of paper from the government which by the way I mean that's a whole lot of discussion wow I really everything went down was when the government gave was wasn't they had the right to say who could get married and not marry that's a whole nother discussion but so it is you know no one believes that once you get that piece of paper then you can experience love absolutely not so marriage does not have a monopoly on love but I'm going to take that even further also romantic relationships between two people do not have a monopoly on love so we have to actually I think those who have that opinion actually have a very narrow understanding of love Christians we are taught that that's not the only context of love not to say that there's a lot of misunderstanding and Ravin Jellicle churches on marriage I think there is tons especially a very Bridal instead I don't know what you say that call it at Biola but we are really bride allistic because there is this and I would say it's a wrong culture wrong understanding of marriage words you know marriage is equivalent to being happy and you know then you succeeded in life but it's it's I think we're borrowing for in the world unfortunately so I would you know what I would say to individuals who to say that to me is we have to actually not have such a narrow closed-minded view of love and actually realistically let's just say for example Sean your dad you know you love your kids Stephanie she loves you know your kids and and there's something about a mother's love for her child you know your mom you know I bet you you could do almost anything and she'd be mad at you but she's your mom that's right and I would almost even argue that maybe even there's something even strong between a mother's love for a child then between a husband and wife why I mean look at half of the marriages in America that people fall in and out of love but how often do you hear where a mother falls out of love with their child it's you know so there are there are bonds of love that are just as strong between a husband and wife then compared to or there's just a strong debt when compared that's a great answer really expand within the church and the culture this narrow view that love is in marriage when reality it's so much more than that and we know that you know I got a bunch of questions for you but here's some really good ones coming through Denny asks this he says why would it be wrong to be gay when God made you that way great question so this is actually having a thinking through what is sexuality so what I what what I believe was what the world was telling me I am gay so first of all words matter and when we use I am happy I am sad you know that's an adjective that that doesn't I I'm you know I'm not saying that that is Who I am but that's what I'm experiencing right now sexuality we have turned that from my feet up because if we're to distill everything down even if American Psychological Association their definition is a pattern of desires or attractions and their sexual or romantic toward the same sex obvious sex or both so that's kind of a you know general externally accepted definition from the APA well if you see then it's really has comes down to our desires but when is it ever that our sexual urges our attractions become who we are it should be this is what I feel these are what are my desires these are what my behaviors are and and they're strong designers I'm not at all denying that our sexual Javad desires are very strong and they're even a very significant ass that of our experience but we have to realize experience never replace personhood in other words we're talking about essence we're not talking about experience and I think because of post-modernism because of coming out of that essentialism and romanticism was all about your emotions we have made our experience our desires our feelings our attractions to be who we are sexuality is not who we are it's how we are so therefore I've kind of framed the question okay the sexuality isn't who we are so therefore God made us in his own image where that's who we are sexuality is not who we are as a matter of fact I mean if you're a Christian so if I'm talking to a non-christian I wouldn't go here but if we're a Christian we need to follow the trajectory that's why the subtitle I book God's grand story which is creation fall Redemption and consummation so in consummation the end times we realize that actually marriage as we know it here on earth will end that's right after 22 there will be no marriage so let's follow the logic there if there's no marriage you know what else that means there's not going to be any sex and I hate to break the news to the people who are watching don't think that we're gonna be like this ascetic life of just whoa you know I'm just gonna kind of control no I mean it's gonna be so much like you know whatever is the most fun thing you that you think of or the most exhilarating or even if you think you know sex is the most enjoyable thing in the life heaven is gonna be infinitely greater than that mmm so we're not gonna be kind of like oh you know kind of controlling all my no it's gonna be so much better but there's not going to be any sex because there's no marriage sex is only reserved for marriage and then if there's no sex so follow my logic there's also not going to be any sexual desires because we will not have any unfulfilled desires on the revelation but if there's no sexual desires that also means actually sexuality as we know of it here and now these romantic and sexual desires will also have an end because that end means it's fulfilled in Christ so that's why I think it's you know God didn't make us this way he you know he I mean just the same way you know people say well I'm born this way well we're all born this in nature so that doesn't make him spin right just because we're born in the sin nature actually as a matter of fact Jesus Christ was so clear I mean he's I think what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John chapter 3 it just hits the nail on the head and answers the question for all of them many people it's not just sexuality but this is the way I am I'm born this way Jesus says you must be born again so what do you think you're born gay what do you think you're born an alcoholic what do you think you're going to lie your cheater fill in the blank you must be born again that's a beautiful answer I love how much you talk about how original sin plays into all of our desires and affections not just this issue and then our identity is rooted not in our desires but in who God says we are I think that really sets your book apart as being biblical and being powerful let me throw ice I see some other questions coming up here and we will get to those but let me ask you one first perhaps one of the most common arguments that I hear is people will say this they'll say if you don't affirm same-sex relationships you are bringing harm to gay people emotionally causing depression causing loneliness and encouraging many people to take their lives now that's a tough question because there's a lot of parents with kids with same-sex attraction and they're thinking I don't want to contribute to this I want to love my kids yeah is is that true what is that what does the data actually show how would you respond to that well definitely there's been a lot of studies showing that when you compare teens and youth who identify as LGBTQ compared to their counterparts who do not that there is a higher suicidality among these LGBTQ youth so that's a fact and I think that's important for us to address and you know do what we can to help these youth to give them home so that's that's the answer we need to give them hope when you know when there's a high suicidality there's something when they just don't have hope and so what's the conclusion well there's of course lots of people are trying to address that but they they're trying to find the cause of suicidality and some are saying that it's because of stigma so that's important I mean like I think we should always look at you know everything that these the hypotheses out there and test them mm-hmm so stigma what does this mean and how does this relate to the church well this is this is how their logic goes they believe stigma is causing shame and guilt on these gay teens LGBTQ plus teens they're you know if you hope this because of the stigma and so they're wanting to you know hurt themselves commit suicide depression etc and well where that where's that stigma coming from their stigma according to some is because of Christians so of course within you know where the portable thing boy so Christians because of our you know our old-fashioned belief of same-sex marriage is not God's will that is causing the stigma and the stigmas then just you know cut causing higher suicide rates among LGBTQ plus teens well that's I mean that's you know I guess we need to look at all possibilities but test them so if we go to a culture or community or maybe even a country where they are very gay affirming and if this logic were true this assertion or true should we not then Feiss it in other words there's low stigma therefore then yeah you know you should find low suicide rates for example the Netherlands when you go to the Netherlands and studies have been done where Netherlands is the most gay affirming country in the world they actually legalized same-sex marriage I mean I think it was a decade before us or more and through that we found that I mean you would think then you know because they're so gay affirming and also because Christian press they're evangelical presence is nominal it's almost non-existent then you should then find lower incidence of suicide nation among LGBTQ youth and the thing is you don't so it's just and so that's really important for us to realize that you know people are making these assertions and we need to say well I mean that's a that's a strong assertion to make that Christians are somehow indirectly and then causing these deaths when we find in the Netherlands that's not the case well what do we need to do people who are wrestling with with hopelessness need hope and where do we find that hope in the gospel in Jesus Christ so what we want to do is as Christians as we want to offer that hope and we want to offer the message that is free for everyone there's no you know we're not limiting this message but we're actually giving that note you know that message really this is a really powerful response because if the stigma is what causes the suffering and we go to another society in which there's not the stigma we would expect the suffering to go away but it doesn't so that doesn't tell us what the heart of the suffering is but it tells us what it's not yeah we really do love LGBTQ people as unpopular and politically incorrect as it is we should push up against that narrative and find out what the cause the suffering really is I love this point let me go to a practical question here this is from Ethan it says if you're witnessing to non-believer and they bring up the idea of quote what do you think of me being lesbian or gay how would you answer that speaking the truth but in love well I think it wouldn't be any different than maybe if someone came up to you and said what would you think about me being Muslim now note that I'm not using the example of you know what did you think about me being a drug addict or senator and and the reason is because we're like oh well then why we you know being why don't we do all the same well because we always need to contextualize the gospel it's pretty much it you know it's I guess it's becoming we're a little bit more we're being a drug at drug addict might be okay but I think still in general that being a drug addict is not a good thing and we recognize that and so I think you can clearly call that out well when it comes to Muslims I don't know of any Christian that would to a Muslims face say you're living in sin you're you're worshipping a false you know a false prophet why not because I'm watering down the truth but because I want them to know Jesus sometimes I think Christians we want to have peace with ourselves knowing that I told them to living in sin and then that's it our goal is not simply to tell people that they're living in sin that is part of that but that's not our end goal our end goal is that they would know Jesus yes telling them that they're living in sin is only one step toward that but sometimes we don't those steps can be put in different order we have to tell them they're living in sin eventually death what if our ultimate goal is that they wouldn't want to know Christ and if I know that if I tell them now then I will have no more chance to tell them that they're living in sin then I absolutely lost my chance so again I think just as we would not tell a Muslim you're going to have because of you know you worship Muhammad or I would never do that please don't ever do that that's the worst thing to do I would if there's a Muslim be like I would just say I'm gonna treat you just as I treat everyone else I believe everyone is created in the image of God actually I would love to hear your story tell me more about you tell me more about you know who you are again because it's it's through relationship that the gospel is best shared and when we don't build that relationship with people then we will rarely have that opportunity to be able to share about the hope of Jesus Christ and the hope that Jesus gives us through the Holy Spirit to change lives radically that's such great context I really she ate the wisdom of how to approach LGBTQ people and really all people that makes a lot of sense there's some more questions here that we're going to come back to but I want to ask you a question at your response on what might be the most rhetorically powerful I don't think logically powerful but rhetorically powerful argument from the scripture that convinces a lot of people to adopt the affirming position but first off if you're listening you're enjoying this hit the thumbs up there that helps us spread the word so other people may find out and and watch this as well and the question is for Matthew 17:15 through 20 and the argument is that we know a tree by its fruit yeah and the idea is that if you look at the fruit of the traditional sexual ethic teaching what it leads to is just pain and suffering and hurt in the lives of gay people it's bad fruit therefore there must be something wrong with the tree itself this argument was made by by Matthew vines who in his book God negate Christian has really spoken out with this people like Jen Hatmaker have come forward and said this and said that our traditional teaching is causing people to suffer therefore it's bad fruit we need to change the historic teach in the church has embraced now we talked about how that's not really true itself kind of psychologically but why does that miss what Jesus was teaching in Matthew 7:15 through 20 well we have to look at this in context and actually when we see you know what Jesus said there in Matthew 17 it's actually almost word-for-word for what John the Baptist said earlier in the Gospel of Matthew and I think it's Matthew chapter 3 but where he basically says the exact same thing and and when you read that context you see that actually the fruit that John the Baptist was talking about good fruit was repentance bad fruit was unrepentant and how do we know that even more so well the for bad in that Jesus used that John the Baptist used and it's been it's word-for-word is not the word for bad in a kind of kind of subjective way or a comparative way okay but it's actually bad in in the evil sense wicked so it in uh in Greek the there's two words for bad or at least two words for bad their two main words put it this way the main one is the Greek word cactus cactus means bad isn't good or bad I mean you know this is a good day this is a bad day well there's another word that's even stronger and it's the Greek word panna rose okay now that Greek word powder oz actually when you put the definitive article before that in Greek the hop-on arras means the evil one that stands for satan that stands for the devil okay so Han arose actually means wicked so we're not talking about good fruit as in like a a subjective experience away but it's actually talking about in a moral waste and that's so key that's obvious and that maker that Matthew vines do not address because in the Greek the word for bad fruit is this is wicked fruit it is a morally bad fruit so it's not talking about bad in the sense of I'm suffering or I'm having a hard time okay where's the repression it's actually wicked fruit which actually that goes right in line with how John the Baptist was calling it that bad fruit is unrepentant and good fruit then therefore is repentance so therefore it makes sense because why in the world if you know a guy who's you know who's you know supports so let's go with the Matthew vines kind of you know logic so of a guy who's living single he's having such a hard time and he's feeling depressed because he's not married then that is bad fruit so then if Jesus says that's gonna be cut down so are you talking about that you the guy's gonna be cut down because of that actually totally makes more sense that those that are unrepentant are gonna face the consequence of that you know the apse is laid at the stump that's that's a pretty clear statement of you know facing the consequence of being unrepentant that's really really helpful because I think rhetorically this is a powerful argument when I first heard it I thought I don't want to contribute to suffering in the lives of gay people my goodness I don't I felt the weight of that and when I first read Matthew on the service I thought oh if bad fruit is suffered in their lives may have been reconsider the teaching what you bring into context and bad fruit is sin or unrepentant good fruit is repentance very very different so ironically those who are saying God is fine with same-sex relationships if you and I are right they're actually the ones that are promoting bad fruit but I false prophecy so the sword cuts both ways and by the way apologetics now asked me to hold up your book again it's holy sexuality and the gospel just a wonderful book and he asked what software I use I had Christopher coming through Skype and then I brought him through ECAM so you can do that live and yours as well it's called ECAM Chris Frye have a question for you I've been listening to this it must be 25 or 30 hours long it's written by a gay man I don't believe he calls himself Christian I don't know his religious background at all and he's describing the history of the AIDS epidemic and when the coronavirus hit I just thought you know when I was a kid when this happened so this would be interesting for me to study and as I've read this there's a lot of people that are outside the church and some progressives that really want to shame the church and its response yeah and I'm curious because you said you lost some friends during this you have a memory of the church during this time as I'm reading this book I'm thinking the government fell short the gay community fell short and so did the church there's blame to go all around during this how would you say the church responded and what can we learn from its response to the AIDS crisis that we could just do better today to love our neighbors in the gay community I think there's a lot I mean I think we ask Christians we have to recognize and take responsibility for how the church has actually in the past several decades we definitely could have done a much better job especially years ago when you know there was just more condemnation than the gospel you know me we how is it loving to just tell people you're going to hell and there's no hope for you there's you know if we think about it our our only message to the gay community is you're living in sin and that's it and it's not you're living in sin but there's a savior like we don't even tell people and Jesus you're living in sin and that's it I think yes we need to tell people they're living in sin but we need to immediately tell them about the hope of Jesus or you can tell them about Jesus I mean I think sometimes our evangelism I mean and I think apologetics in evangelism that they did there they're there to brother sent you know the gloves it's not just that amen that's what we preach at Biola that they go together there you go because I mean what's the purpose of apologetics is not just to argue and you may say I'm right because if that's if that's what you know what what people think apologetics is well that's totally the wrong goal the goal of apologetics is leading them to Christ so I mean it's the same though so they go hand in hand amen uh but we don't just tell people they're living in sin and then and then leave that's that's cruel I think what we need to do is to point them to Christ we need to point them yes we're all sinners we need to because I'm not I'm not sinless I'm in the same boat we're all in the same boat you're on the same boat every person watching right now we're all the same boat but as Grey's our sin we have an even greater saver so we need to fess up and and own up to how the church we haven't been gospel such as we haven't been Christocentric in the past we've been very sinned we actually we've been legalism we've been moralism we've been behavior amount of modification for the past several decades hmm and you know we saw you know we're not we should not be pharisaical we need to be like Christ but you know telling people go and sin no more telling people that I can offer you the water of life so that's we need to own up to that and see how we can do better but also on the flip side I'm kind of seeing a little bit of a movement or growing kind of popularity now where it seems like people are just kind of beating up the church so and you know Justin on one end I'm saying yeah Church you need to do better I mean and you know you've got to own up to that and there's still you know a bunch of churches and you know Christians who are kind of stuck in that that kind of very legalistic but I think I'm seeing a lot of these churches now and Christians that are kind of just jumping on the bandwagon and beating up the church and I think that that's wrong because we are the church first of all the church is not you know we can't you can't be a Christian and say you know shame on you well with that shame on us I mean we're part of them and even though you are not you know maybe directly guilty of some of that we're still a corporate body we need to own up to that but we can't beat up the church because the church is part of the answer and we need to bring that engine back so though you know sometimes you know there is even some conferences that are just seeing me my just continue to beat up the church yeah you know the church under the bus I'm like no yes we need to own up but there's hope like I just want to give people hope I want to give the church hope I'm gonna give Chris hope I want to give my LGBT friends hope as well in Christ you know my experience Christopher as I travel around the country and I've spoken on this issue universities high schools colleges Christians non-christians I actually think the vast majority of Christians want to respond graciously and lovingly but just don't always know how and probably have some ideas that are not fully biblical or accurate but their hearts in the right place that's my experience but that's why I think your book is so important having truth equips us with the confidence that we can speak this lovingly and graciously and I think what you said the legalism when we're pointing the sin in somebody else's life we don't see the sin in our own life and just like the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18 we don't understand how much we've been forgiven we can't be gracious towards others right um one question I I did want to ask you from your experiences I I wonder if you would agree with this most people that I've met that are LGBTQ just want the same things out of life that everybody else does family job freedom you know they want a good life but there's a certain spectrum of activists LGBTQ are not pushing this really aggressive agenda and we were told at same-sex marriage just want to write to get married live and let live and yet come out of that has come very intentional strategies in the educational system like in California I read all the sexual health standards did a review on my blog and from kindergarten all the way up it was pretty chilling to me as a parent with different ethics to see what's intentionally being taught to kids yeah why do you think there's some activists a significant amount that are so aggressive pushing this is it just this is what they think is loving for society and we just differ over that or do you think something else is going on well you know I'm I put myself in my shoes 20 years ago and I actually never even heard the term gay agenda until I became a Christian so I didn't know I mean I didn't have any agenda just I'm gay that's that's all I do I think where this comes is how we have conflated sexuality with who we are so just as you know I'm Chinese and just as it would be a good thing for me to you know tell your students you know at Biola or at your school or the high school that what Chinese culture is like and what it's like to be Chinese my experience and that's a good thing if my race is equivalent to my sexuality and I believe that before and I now know that is not true but if it is then just as it would be good to teach about Chinese culture to our kids to help educate them to help them to be more cultured and mature and world you know you know kind of world culture well it would also be good to kind of educate them about gay culture or about gay people in the history in past history so of course I don't believe that anymore yeah I see where they're coming from why I think it's grounded in the lie that gay is who you are none how you are gosh you're that pigment that what personhood affects practice when we have a wrong view of who we are we then have a wrong way of thinking a wrong way of living a wrong way of you know all that concept ideas and desires are our decision-making our friends that it affects everything mmm so that's why I think that is where that is coming from and why it's actually growing because more and more of those in the LGBTQ even for example you know so now polyamory is kind of like you know it's in the news but it is and what you hear some interesting you don't hear people saying and then I've read several articles more people say you don't hear them saying I'm in a polyamorous relationship because that actually would be correct you know what they hear they say I am polyamorous hmm we've made these words that are supposed to modify and describe our experiences and we've taken them to modify people gay straight LGBTQ those should never be used to modify people they describe our desires and our behaviors only that's really important that's why I notice I'm gonna hold up again cuz people are asking holy sexuality and the gospel you spent a lot of time talking about our identity going back to Genesis who are we before the Lord and determining what it means to be human is that the root of these questions so that is HUGE really hugely valuable here's a practical question for you Joshua Keenan says hi I'm a youth pastor and I want to know as a leader in a church what is the best way to lead a church in a welcoming and disciple ein LG in in welcoming and disciple een lgbtq+ individuals well you know I think there's a sense where we need to be better educated about issues of sexuality we need to learn new vocabulary when you know honestly to be able to reach the youth today they're speaking a different language I mean I don't know how many times and people text me I'm like I have no idea what you know this acronym stands for I need to go on Google and be like I don't know what that stands for okay kids just use not just the acronyms but I mean they're just so they're using all these new terminology and it's changing every year in the same way when you're dealing with those in the LGBTQ so you know what's what does non-binary mean what does you know you know clear or you know question e I mean there's so many you know gender fluid what do what does all that mean so I think it's being familiar with these terms okay what I also don't want to make it make it make people to feel like it is so utterly or is so different that I'm clueless because I hear this a lot we're pastors youth pastors come to me and they say I don't know how do you know this this this young girl or this guy came in my office and shared with me they've I'm gay or I have same-sex attractions and I have no idea what to do you know and oftentimes they'll I'll kind of go at lanes to tell me you know I don't have seen such attractions I don't know how to help this person especially when it's a but tell me like five times I don't have okay I got it you don't have saved attractions you know I got but I kind of want to push back and say when is it that all of a sudden you have to be an expert in a particular sin or even struggle with yourself struggle with it yourself to help someone else struggling with that sin and I'll make it real do you have to shoot up with heroin to help a heroin addict I would say I hope not I shall not I mean and or do you have to commit adultery to help an adulteress of course not do you have to you know what I'm fill in the blank and yet you know we say no to all these you know issues but then for this we treat it like well I have no clue how to help here's here's what we need to remember if you know Christ and if you've had any victory of your sin you can help another sinner because Amen you know what let me cut it say that again I want to make sure nobody missed it because that is so powerful important say that again yeah because and I'm not totally forgot what I said you said if you've had victory over sin in your life if you ever had victory over sin ever and you know if you know Christ and if you've ever had victory over your sin you can help another sinner don't allow Satan to immobilize you into thinking you can't help another person because this is my point this is why I got lost because I was trying to think of the other night next point when people come to you in their time of need what they don't need most is actually an expert what they do need most is a friend man we can be that friend I mean look at joke you know job's friends that came along and they just sat with them in silence for seven days that's right that been police well what happened after the seven days they open their mouths and that's in these early days sometimes we just need to grieve with people we just need to listen like I love this I don't know what proverb it is it's a Chinese proverb or whatever but I love it we have two ears and one mouth so we should listen twice as much as we hear I love it because and that's hard for me you know love to talk I have to learn to listen as much or twice as much as I talk this is so helpful I really appreciate this balance that you bring in just so you know there's a number of comments here people just saying you're explaining things clearly your books are helpful thanks for bringing back the gospel and focusing on loving people and listening so let's make it really practical you talk about this towards the end of your book but if somebody's here maybe it's youth pastor maybe a parent maybe a friend and somebody comes out to them with their sexuality how should they respond well I think so if if someone opens up to you what I say first is thank them tell them thank you for trusting me with this you know opening up about sexuality especially many maybe in the world now it's become so normalized but I think in the church still there's still this stigma and this fear I just constantly get emails in even my students at Moody where people are so afraid they'll know they'll hear about my story they'll tell me and and sometimes they'll tell me I never told anyone well I've been told yeah I've been told you know my my my parents I've been told my passwords cetera and that just breaks my heart so I I would thank them to say I know it must have been hard for you to open up thank you for trusting me with this but then ask open-ended questions like tell me more what does this mean and actually listen for a while maybe toward the end I would ask them this very very important question and it is how does your thing fit into this so I mean I guess assuming that this is a Christian if it's not a Christian then I would say I mean not that would it makes sense to enter the Christian I would say how does your faith fit into this so for a parent if your mom or dad and your child opens up to you first of all don't freak out but say thank you because actually parents are usually the last to know but then you know tell them I would also event and this very important comes back to identity because this is why I actually my book begins with identity that's how important I think it is yeah we can't like you know get past for us begin talking about a building on our understanding of sexuality we have to begin with identity so I would actually help our loved one and friend know that their identity needs to be in Christ like for all of us and I think we all actually struggle with I did it we put our identity in the wrong thing we put it in our hobbies we put it in our job sometimes mothers put their soul I get it evening being the mother or in their children you know so there's a lot of things that we put our soul identity in and that's and sometimes those are false identities so when it comes to sexuality same thing when to remind people that's not your soul I getting that's not the core of who you are it's it could be a core aspect of your experience but not the core of who you are but from there I would just point them to Christ actually I would put the sexuality aspect on the back burner and I would disciple them I would grow them I would like let's say let's just let's open up a book in the Bible and just go through that actually I'm loving right now you might the Bible project yeah that's wonderfully understand like let's just go through that together or you know go through um you know book the Bible together and just read it through memorizing I mean just things that'll just grow you as a man of God as a woman of God because that is how we get grounded to be able to deal with all the other issues that come in life Christopher this is so helpful we have time for maybe handful questions if you have a question for him state it now if I missed one or two restated please I apologize by the way before I go next one if you are new to the channel make sure you hit the subscribe button because we have a number of interviews coming up with people you are not gonna want to miss let me ask you this question you have made a point that really opened my eyes to this you said sometimes we have really shamed parents who have kids with same-sex attraction because it's the one sin that we say you know where I'm going with this so I'm gonna let you jump in yeah take over and run with this yeah so I'm sure many of your listeners I mean if you've been a Christian for you know over a decade or maybe even not you probably heard people say something like this that the root the main root cause of homosexuality are and here's the list three main things an absentee father mm-hmm a dominant mother mm-hmm or abuse in one's childhood hmm that is what causes the root cause of homosexuality now before I jump into the further I I do believe that as parents you do have a responsibility you do all you can to shape and mold your children to be not just good people but to fear the Lord to follow Jesus but you can't force them but the deeper problem is we've diagnosis incorrectly we've treated this more like a disease we've treated this more as a psychological disorder what I mean by this we think that because somehow in their childhood because of an absentee father diamond whether our abuse and of course abuse is horrible that that is very detrimental in people's eyes and they need to deal with that but that is not what causes people to be sinners because the real problem is not something that is bad than happen too much other and you know Shawn where that comes from that actually comes from Sigmund Freud and unfortunately sometimes Christian interests were more busy following Freud than we are following Christ I mean it's purely Freud was the one that believed the problems that you're dealing with now are all rooted link directly to things that happen in your childhood that's why psychoanalysis I was going back to what what happened in your childhood and then of course all this you know things that he cut throws in there the Oedipus complex and all you know Keller they're just really wacky stuff but that's that's what that is we need to look to the Bible I mean Shawn mine my foundation is the Word of God and when I look to the Word of God I see that this is sinful behavior not you know the worst of sinful behavior but it is sinful behavior so then I need to ask myself what does the Bible say is the root cause of sinful behavior is it bad parenting that can be a catalyst or maybe an influence but it's not the root cause because we need to get at the root cause and cause of sinful behavior is my sin nature and it comes back to that it comes to original sin it comes back to you know it comes back to indwelling sin it often you know we are theologians in the past the Puritans would often talk about and so when we see that that is the root cause my sinful nature well then I need to then find the answer to that so if sin is a problem well Jesus Christ is the answer like I want to keep them dying in the gospel and this is where Christians this is where we shine because if this is a psychological issue well then this is kind of an issue that the psychologists need to deal with however if this is sinful behavior which it is and if sin is the you know the real issue and Christ is the answer this is where Christ and the body of Christ come in and we come in as those who can offer true help so therefore and there's many parents who keep beating themselves up and I want to tell them it's not your fault perfect parenting does not guarantee perfect children look at Adam and Eve they had a perfect father they still stood they have a perfect environment they still say that that's beautiful I can't imagine how many parents that is liberating for them to just the weight of guilt come off here's one question from Ethan he said are affirming evangelical churches a recent thing or they've been around for a long time and let me just tell you throughout the history of the church up until about the middle of the 20th century from the left to the right Christian Jewish there was agreement that marriage was meant to be one man and one woman in a committee to relationship for life and sex was to be reserved for that now do people follow that no just read the Old Testament but it was agreed that that was God's original design so now what we're hearing is people saying oh I'm in an artist I believe the Bible is true and you can have this affirming position as well if that's something you want to unpack further I had a lengthy conversation that is on YouTube on the channel with Matthew vines who makes that argument and we go back and forth in some depth I would encourage you to take a look at that Chris from ask you this is this a gospel issue is sexual behavior and homosexual behavior gospel issue why can't we just agree to disagree and we're getting towards the end so I'm gonna give you a little bit more of rapid-fire questions I know that's not fair but give me your kind of Twitter quick response to is this a gospel issue yes well well for Paul we see Paul would never of said that we need to agree to disagree on idolatry and sexual morality ever those are like the two from the Old Testament and New Testament writers those are two that we just do not agree to disagree that sin idolatry is sin sexual morality is sin and we don't those are not things to agree to disagree there's no room to wiggle room to say that oh we can kind of just you know it maybe we're just not sure other things there is you know Paul even talks about where we can agree to disagree as he says like in Romans 13 etc but sexual morality is definitely not one of those places where were we just kind of have can have differing opinions and Paul had very strong words against those who believe that we can just have a broad understanding of morality very strong words so when you go to a same-sex wedding asks Joshua oh that's you know so if it was maybe a friend or maybe a distant relative I think those are a little bit easier I mean as maybe you know I'm past that age but if you're in her 20s that the reason might be constantly getting all these wedding areas in here I don't I can't go to all these and it's a little easier to maybe say no to people that you're not as close with but if let's just say this is your brother or your sister or your son or daughter man it is so hard to you know so hard to to say no to that and I would say you know it's it's it's you know it's hard and I think that we need to realize how God really has elevated there's not just you know kind of just the ceremony but there's so much throughout scripture where the Bible begins with the marriage Genesis to Bible ends with a marriage Revelation 19 and so we need to see that and in between there's a lot of this you know I think we need to see how we can be full of grace and truth I actually maybe suggest you know because obviously it's a ceremony that I would really struggle being there personally with but I've you know maybe suggested you maybe don't go to the ceremony but you'll be there for the reception you know I would say you know kind of just say you know people know that I wasn't ever saying but I'm there for the reception it's a dinner it's free why not you know free food so maybe that could kind of be okay I'm but I think it's it's not an easy question if people really need to pray and fast because our ultimate goal is that they wouldn't they know Jesus Christ that's a that's a very generous answer let me let me ask you this last question because this comes up and it's always kind of the end people say all right so you're saying if somebody has same-sex attraction basically they have to be forced to be celibate for their entire lives if they want to honor God what would you say to that well there's no forcing of anything because God never forces anyone we all have our free will to do what we want and the choice is either we're gonna choose god or we're gonna do not or not choose god we're gonna love God with all our heart with all our soul with all our mind with all our strength or not I mean we want to love people with all our heart soul mind and strength but that's then relational idolatry we need to love God with all our heart soul mind and strength so I think that we we're not called you know but we are called to what I call holy sexuality in these two paths either chastity and singleness or faithful as a measure note and I'm not using the word celibacy celebi this lifelong chosen vocation which I don't necessarily see that the bible is clearly articulating that's not what Paul is talking about in first within seven I believe syllabus cell that celibacy is from the Latin word syllabus or Caleb's and and we don't actually find that even in the Latin Bible it's only from church history and church history needs to be scrutinized under the Word of God Sola scriptura so however I actually think that so it's either chassis means English or faithfulness in marriage and actually I call those two paths because God puts us on those paths I don't think it's we put on there my even marriage I don't think we actually choose marriage it should be is it the will of God or not I think that should be the more correct way which probably maybe might then reduce all the divorces that unfortunately happened among Christians but I think it's two paths that God puts us in and we should be always open with you know willing with open hands to say God you can put me in either path why and why because as an individual who has seen such attractions even though I am single now I'm open if God provides for me a woman to marry she has to be really godly to put up with all my Oh for real but I'm totally open to that however I'm not like desperately seeking out that that's a difference I'm not kind of on the hunt oh my god I'm open to this but I'm gonna find contentment with where I am now and that's the way I mean even in first John it says what is love for God it's love for God is is is obeying his Commandments and His commandments are not burdensome so I think that's really important understand that it's loving God with all my heart soul mind and strength one of the biggest things I've taken from our relationship and I'm so thankful for you brother you've helped me in ways that just open my eyes to this is that singleness is beautiful and when done right can be fulfilling marriage is beautiful when done right can be fulfilling and they're equal ways to love and honor the Lord though thank you for speaking the truth one of the things I just I appreciate about you is you always bring it back to the gospel so ultimately Jesus is the solution which is why in your book Holy sexuality and the gospel when I saw the title I was like that makes perfect so if you have enjoyed this number one think about picking up a copy of Christopher's book just as a way saying thank you one of things that you talked about is how important it is to get educated this book gave me an education how to think about this issue well which is as you know I've used it in some of my classes at Biola though if you're watching this you want to get trained further in issues of sexuality or apologetics think about studying apologetics with me at Biola we have a certificate program I'm gonna put a discount for watching this below in the description after this for our certificate program but we would love to have you come study with us and learn how to defend your faith just as you've seen Christopher do tonight with clarity with conviction but with love and graciousness and kindness and a heart for the church and a heart for the Lost so we hope you've enjoyed this conversation Christopher hang on don't go nowhere yet by the way I just Great Scott he said oh my goodness loving this sorry I came on in the end this will all be posted very quickly on my youtube channel and if you would share this with a friend that would really help us get this message out but you can find it there as well god bless you guys thank you for tuning in have a wonderful wonderful evening

Channel: Sean McDowell

Views: 28,803

Keywords: sexuality, heterosexuality, homosexuality, LGBTQ, church, gay, lesbian, conversation, dialogue, minister, affirming, non-affirming, revisionist, Bible, Jesus, Paul, new testament, Side A, Side B

Id: l4xwn3joYik

Length: 66min 2sec (3962 seconds)

Published: Mon May 04 2020