Non-Duality and the Nature of Experience with Rupert Spira and Paul J. Mills

well hello my name is Paul Mills I'm a professor of family medicine and public health at the University of California San Diego and it's my great pleasure to be here today with Rupert Spira who is really an internationally renowned speaker and educator in the world of non-duality commonly known as Advaita I've been so impressed with your work over the years particularly the the utter clarity that you bring to your work that I think has been very much needed here in the West speaking about these difficult concepts Rupert I'd like to begin our interview by asking you to give a definition of non-duality the term non-duality refers to an experience and in order to understand what that is experiences let's first explore what is meant by duality duality is the belief that underpins our world culture which is the belief that experience is divided into two essential ingredients mind on the inside out of which my thoughts images and feelings are made and matter on the outside out of which objects others and the world are made and this basic duality between mind and matter is consist a really the foundation of our world culture what is meant by non duality is that in reality the distinction between mind and matter doesn't exist that there is a fundamental underlying reality that of which the inside self made out of mind and the outside world made out of matter part a core from which they they derive their apparently separate existence so let me give you a brief analogy for this imagine that a woman called Mary falls asleep and she falls asleep in San Jose and she dreams that she's Jane in New York so Mary is asleep in her bed in San Jose she has a dream and in her dream she is Jane I'm just changing the names for ease of communication she is Jane located in New York and Jane perceives the streets of New York now from Jane's point of view thoughts and images and feelings on the inside are made out of stuff called mind and when she looks at the streets of New York she thinks that all the objects and people she sees that I made out of matter and this seems to her to be just perfectly obvious it just seemed common sense to her for instance she closes her eyes and New York vanishes she opens her eyes again New York reappears and she reasonably concludes from this that whatever it is that is perceiving or knowing New York is located just behind her eyes and of course all her friends in New York corroborate the same evidence now when Mary wakes up Mary realizes oh I wasn't Jane with my own little package of consciousness located inside my brain knowing a world New York in this case outside of myself made out of dead inert stuff called matter the entire dream both Jane's internal thoughts and feelings and the world in which she seemed to exist they were all made out of my own indivisible mind the entire contents of the dream was made out of the substance of Mary's mind which was which is indivisible so although there seemed to be a multiplicity and diversity of objects and others known by a separate self in the dream when the reality of that dream was investigated all this multiplicity and diversity objects and selves were seen to share the same reality that is exactly what is meant by non duality although it's see we are all like Jane in the dream yes from whose point of view it seems that experience is divided into mind on the inside out of which our thoughts and feelings and images are made and matter on the outside out of which objects others in the world as seem to be main but the term non duality refers to the recognition that what we essentially are behind this seeming multiplicity and diversity of objects and others and selves is this single indivisible reality and the this is not an extraordinary experience that only a few enlightened sages have access to everybody actually has this experience on a regular basis it's known as love in relation to people and beauty in relation to objects when we love someone do we not feel to a greater or lesser extent that everything that separates us from the other collapses it isn't that what to be in love is it is to feel no distant yes very separation it is to feel one with the other the beauty is exactly the same feeling when you feel you merge with the landscape or you merge with it is so intimate is that you cannot separate yourself from it so love and beauty are two the common ways to that everybody experiences non duality of course although of course we have a very different interpretation of that experience so in none in the in the non dual understanding which is the essence of all the great religious and spiritual teachings there is this recognition that underlying all the multiplicity and diversity of objects and selves is this single indivisible shared being and the religious name for that of course is God's infinite being that is what is meant by God or the ultimate reality of the universe which is is the ultimate reality of ourselves that the inside self and the outside world are are one its way and this all the spirit of the great religious and spiritual traditions contain this understanding for instance in Christianity I and my father are one what I essentially am and what the ultimate nature of the universe essentially is are the same in the Sufi tradition whosoever knows their self knows their Lord glue so ever knows what we essentially are on the inside knows the ultimate reality of the universe on the outside in other words that they're they're shared being their unity is recognized so the term non duality points to that experience not it's not just a philosophy it's a philosophy that relates to an actual experience the experience of our shared oneness with all beings and all things your book the transparency of things which I have here you probably know is considered a contemporary classic and I've even read the words masterpiece regarding the non duality literature so for me to have you here today to speak with us on this topic of well-being is is really a pleasure so thank you thank you now well-being is a fascinating area and it's been really getting increasing attention in the world of science and academia I have worked for many years in an area called behavioral medicine and behavioral cardiology historically when we would conduct research in these areas on things relevant to people's well-being we focused on things such as stress depression anxiety that's where the field was conceptually and there were journals to publish all this material in with names such as the stress Journal the anxiety Journal fortunately the last 10 years for sure perhaps that will be on that the field is evolved and there's great interest now what's called positive psychology you probably heard positive psychiatry and it's an effort to move away from just looking at those things that work against us and to discover and speak about those attributes that really support our well-being things such as gratitude love compassion acceptance in empathy and as I review that literature even as it exists today concepts around non duality and the essential nature of our self isn't there so much so for an example the Gallup poll which is widely known around the world has a well-being index that they use that to gauge well-being across all the states in the United States for example by the way Alaska has been ranking first for a number of years but also they do these indices across the world at different countries and I want to share with you the the five domains that this particular well-being index focuses on and then from there I'd like to speak about what might be missing inherently from these definitions certainly they capture very important parts of our lives as human beings for well-being but fundamentally there's another se level or aspect of our existence that we really need to begin to understand and then fully realize and embrace to have a true sense of well-being so for example the Gallup these five domains of well-being one is sense of purpose the other is social relationships financial security relationship to community and physical health all very clearly important things for us as human beings in our day-to-day existence but as I said I think these five domains are not capturing another component of our existence that perhaps it's not captured because it's difficult to really understand and quantify perhaps certainly in the West this this sort of material is relatively new meaning you know century or so but more and more of its been addressed by by people like yourself so I want to read something you've written and then if you could comment on your thoughts about well-being from this point of view so you've written the self the separate self is not an entity it is an activity the activity of thinking and feeling an imaginary limit superimpose on the true and only self of pure awareness the realization of this truth dissolves the beliefs in distance separation and other necessities separation and other necessity and is that for which everyone longs so I thought this is beautiful text and if you can speak your concepts around well-being from what I've spoken so far and then we can continue from there this is your description of the evolution from focusing on the more negative aspects anxiety stress fear - emphasizing the more positive aspects I think it is the right direction to be going in in the non-dual tradition we we take another step we go as it were further back to the source of well-being for instance you mentioned I think the fifth quality that you mentioned physical physical health yes we all know and both within ourselves and in others that physical health is not by itself a source of happiness there are plenty of people who are not in good health physically who are happy and plenty of people who are in good health and and are not happy so in the non-dual tradition it asks the the essential question what is where is fulfillment happiness or peace to be found is it dependent in any way on our circumstances conditions some relationships activities etc and the the ultimate understanding in the non-dual traditions which is of course the underlying understanding that informs all the great religious and spiritual traditions is that the source of happiness or fulfillment or or well-being is only to be found in oneself in and in order to find that one has to recognize what we essentially are so the non-dual tradition starts with this investigation into our essential nature what is it that we refer to as I and we observe that we are aware of our thoughts but our thoughts are not essential to us our thoughts are always coming and going feelings sensations perceptions are always coming and going but there's one element of experience that always remains present the remains as it were the background of experience and this is what we call I we have called ourselves I since we were five year old girls and boys when we were ten year old we referred to ourselves as I when we were 20 years old we referred to ourselves as I throughout our lives we have referred to ourselves as I so I indicates this the ever-present element in all changing experience since we were five year old girls and boys our thoughts feelings sensations perceptions have changed innumerable times but this that we refer to as I has remained continuously present or more accuracy more accurately is ever present throughout experience and if we make an a deep investigation as to what this eye is we've just find the experience of of being aware or awareness itself and we express this when we say I am aware of my thoughts I am aware of my feelings and sensations I'm aware of perceptions were I am aware I am aware I am aware it runs being aware runs throughout all experience so this is the the first the first step that we take to recognize I am the presence of awareness to a chore within which all experience arises what are the approaches the methodologies that the advisee tradition uses and advocates and teachers to help people wake up to the phenomenon that all is that I am love and all is beauty yes okay there is basically a two-step approach and that the first step involves a turning away from the objective elements of our experience and by objective elements I don't just mean perceptions of the world I mean sensations of the body images memories feelings thoughts everything that has an objective quality so the the non-dual the first step of the non-dual understanding involves it is often initiated by questions such as what is it that knows or is aware of your experience now if I were to ask you what time is it you would direct your attention to your watch if I were to ask you what's the weather like you would look outside the window if I were to ask you about what you had for dinner last night you would direct your mind towards an image of last night's dinner so in each of these three examples the mind directs its off towards some kind of objective experience or thought perception and memory but now if I were to ask you what is it that knows or is aware of all of these experiences what happens then where does the mind go to find the answer if it goes towards an object I'm just going to reassert the question and say no but what is it that is aware of that object and in this way eventually the mind realizes that it in order to find the answer to this question it cannot direct itself towards a thought of feeling an image a sensation a perception in other words the mind is being invited in this unknown direction in this objectless direction it is being invited backwards or inwards towards the essence of itself or the source of itself and this practice is really the essence of meditation or prayer some forms of most forms of meditation and prayer involve the directing of attention but in this approach the mind isn't given anything it doesn't involve the focusing of the mind it is more a relaxing of the mind the mind has to go in this objectless direction it has to sink into the into its essence into the into the heart of awareness the Sufi poet Rumi described this process so beautifully and and accurately when he he said flow down and down and down in ever-widening rings of being what he was inviting what he was suggesting to the mind was instead of flowing outwards towards the objects towards your thoughts towards your feelings towards memories that the mind sink flowed down or backwards and he described it so beautifully in in ever-widening rings of being what he's suggesting is that as the mind sinks or relaxes back towards its source or essence it is in most cases gradually divested of its limits and at some point there is this recognition that the essential nature of the mind that is the essential nature of what we are is unlimited being unlimited self-aware being in other words our being what we essentially are is not limited to or confined by our thoughts feelings sensations what we essentially are is this open empty colorless transparent unlimited being being awareness yes self-aware being yes let me ask you about this further about this journey so there are the teachings that you're speaking about that help direct people to come to realization of their essential nature the oneness the universality of awareness and being and I've known many people over the decades who get on spiritual paths seeking and for the purpose of finding this realization and in the context of our conversation on well-being it can be a challenging journey for many some getting maybe stuck on the idea of being on a path stuck on certain thoughts and beliefs about that that can be a hindrance to them successfully following and coming into the fruition of that journey for themselves and can you speak about that for for a moment how do you help direct people and perhaps it's doing what you just spoke about but but you probably see this on some of your retreats where people think that people the mind can get very stuck and focused on a belief and a thought and it's hard for people sometimes to let go of that just take that step back and then the next step and then the next step yet most people feel that they need to travel on a path from where they are to where they want to get to and this is of course supported by mainstream culture that tells us if we all the things we must do or require in order to achieve fulfillment so this idea of progressing from where we are to where we want to get to through a series of objects events or relationships is very deeply instilled into us not just in our conventional materialistic culture but in fact in our spiritual tradition yes so that's why the spiritual tradition for many the spiritual journey for many people seems to be a series of arduous obstacles to be overcome before we finally reach at this reach this or exalted state called enlightenment or awakening or liberation whatever it is we call it so the direct path that I'm suggesting which is really the essence of the non-dual it is the kind of inner essence of a non dual approach it doesn't involve going through a series of steps a series of steps purifying the mind and the body before it finally reaches the goal of a fulfillment or enlightenment whatever we call it it's based on the recognition that we are right now already the essential unlimited infinite presence of awareness only that presence is obscured by or mixed with layers of thoughts and feelings so the the direct path doesn't involves a series of arduous tasks it involves a simple recognition of what we already and essentially are for instance if I were to suggest to you now stand up and take a step towards yourself what would you do you would stand that you wouldn't be able to move and even if you did move you wouldn't either take a step closer to your step yourself nor would you be able to take a step away from yourself so this direct approach which is the essence of the non-dual teaching suggests that what we essentially and already are is this perfectly peaceful inherently fulfilled presence of awareness it's just that what we are has been so thoroughly mixed with thoughts feelings beliefs ideas memories etc that we have lost sight of or lust touch with our essential being and hence it its own it's more to do with recognizing what we are then becoming something new in fact the word revelation comes from the latin revin re meaning to simply to lay bare it's a laying bare of what we essentially are underneath all our thoughts feelings memories ideas etc so then and this this some laying bare of our true nature can be initiated by a question such as what is it that is aware of your experience or what element of your experience never disappears or what do you mean by the name I any of these questions they they initiate this well it seems to be a path to begin with it seems that we have to take a journey back towards our self and then when there is this recognition we realize oh actually I've always been this being I haven't actually gone anyway I was always this open empty inherently peaceful unconditionally fulfilled being but I had mistaken myself for a cluster of thoughts and feelings and if I could just give a brief analogy take an actor called John Smith who is playing the part of King Lear King Lear is miserable because his daughters are not behaving as he would like to be and so King Lear is unhappy now what does King Lear have to do to regain his sense of well-being does he have to go and work on his relationships with his daughters does he have to go to therapy to work out each of the relationships and through them all does he have to go on an arduous spiritual journey in order to find peace and happiness no all he has to do is ask himself but who am I really am i all King Lia's thoughts feelings and and as King Lear begins to ask himself all these questions heat as he weds traces his way back to who he is essentially and of course who he is essentially is not King Lear it's John Smith the actor who is perfectly peaceful and fulfilled so it is but John Smith hasn't had to go anywhere he hasn't had to become sorry King Lear hasn't had to become John Smith he was always John Smith yes John Smith had just lost himself in that character in the character and the character it seems at first that the character has to trace its way all the way back to John Smith but actually he didn't go anywhere he was always John Smith so that is why it is called sometimes a pathless path because there is no distance between King Lear and John Smith yes and therefore no no no room for a path no room for effort it's just this recognition oh yes this is what I already and always am and then of course it is necessary to stand as that to to to take one's stand in one's it's not a new identity but in this recognition of one's identity and then and this is where the second step that I mentioned to begin with begins we then have to go back out into the world and begin to think feel act perceive and relate from this new sense of ourselves thank you very very much thank you Poole I appreciate your time and reflection on this domain of human well-being and our capacity to really each of us to very much deep and that the truer foundations of an everlasting well-being that's independent of all the activity of our daily lives thank you thank you very much as you're speaking with you thank you

Channel: University of California Television (UCTV)

Views: 114,444

Rating: 4.8685279 out of 5

Keywords: non-duality, advaita, non duality, Rupert Spira, wellbeing

Id: mQ9omxg4IIA

Length: 29min 17sec (1757 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 01 2016