Rupert Spira - 'The Art Of Peace And Happiness' - Interview by Iain McNay

hello and welcome again to conscious TV I'm mere McNay and the day I guessed is Roopa Spiro Island and Rupert's written several books there's a transparency of things which has been out for about two or three years now I think it sold very well he has two new books that we haven't got the finished copies of but we've got copies presents the art of peace and happiness and presents the seamless industry intimacy of experience and they'll both be out on non geology press in the in the autumn and of course it's also featured twice in conversations on non-duality which is a compilation of our interviews here on their conscious TV so Rupert you've been with us a few times here before unconscious TV and I know the first interview I did with you did pretty much cover your background and a lot of the work you did this approach to what you did but I just I just like to very briefly start with looking at how you were again because you started searching as a teenager you were very committed to waking up what was it that was actually driving you at the time I was deeply interested in who I really am and what my experience really is why I don't know it's just the way I find myself having been interested mainly in football and pop music until the age of about 15 I came across Rumi's poetry and started reading it and without understanding any of it loved it and then started exploring the traditional teachings of Advaita Vedanta and just became passionately interested they they were there was a recognition that what was being spoken about was true somehow I knew that I didn't know how I knew that and I didn't know exactly what was being spoken of but I knew there was this deep resonance in me when I read these these teachings something in me went something me said yes that I know this is true and there was this intense desire to find that out and and to to make this my own experience to know from experience what was being described and so and though that kind of tender age what that experience meant to you then my experience what was was just I was at school the word just to thoughts feelings that age it's it's kind of confusing and and you know girls were on the horizon and I was studying science wanting to be a some kind of a biochemist and there was just the whole mix of of life which at that age is confusing and contradictory and into this mix I was I was asking I found myself these questions appeared well what's this what's this all about well why are we here who what's the point of doing he said particular I remember one very strong experience I had at school I was learning I was learning all these facts about many about science I was studying science and and it came to me very strongly one day that this there's no end to this knowledge you objective knowledge you could just go on forever it could never be resolved because science is just going to go on and on and on refuting what was said last week and anew and I thought how it came to me it was it didn't come to me as a thought it was it was a visceral feeling there there can be no end to this there can be no resolution and that was a really a pivotal point for me what was what can we what can we know for certain is true that the knowledge that I was being given with scientific theories through replacing previous ones and would in time be replaced they've been replaced by today's scientific there isn't today's scientific there is will be replaced in in time so I wanted to know but what is really true what is true I spent my life being educated but what is true what is real it just gripped me this question I don't know why I was just you know just a regular kid I just found myself asking these questions and and looking out places and people and books particularly that I felt could answer these questions or at least set be inner in a direction and how did you start practically looking at your own experiences that the first thing I did was to learn how to meditate when I say how to meditate that the particular form of meditation that I learned was mantra meditation so I started by trying to still my mind this seemed to be the problem and I felt that that the mind is a problem it needs to be seen or to find what I want I need to still it I need to quieten it so that's how I started trying to quiet in my mind and alongside this I was also studying the traditional adviser teachings from India which came packaged in in an Indian form and and as a result I found it's difficult really to connect with them they were in a language that wasn't my own language so the teaching as it was presented to me them was always a little bit's it always came as it were it with an orange robe and a long white beard it wasn't something that it was always pretty and a very beautiful possibility but not something that I could find in my life so there was this attempt to still my mind didn't work no I mean when I say did it work it worked on on occasions yes of course see but I'm glad you said that because a lot of people I know start to meditate and they give up because it doesn't work so it's very kind of I started meditation I found it didn't work so I just maybe try harder but you know that that's the debtors and I have the kind of character that doesn't take no for an answer easily so it didn't work I just tried more and I thought what's wrong there must be I must be doing something wrong so and so this just led to a deeper and deeper exploration and yes of course it worked on time times that the mind comes to an end and more meant longer or more meant more commit committed in terms of doing it regularly every day or more made a different type more in terms of the depth of my expert the depth and the intensity of my exploration it didn't necessarily mean more meditation for a while it did but then after a while that that's began to stop and I realized that in a way I was using this type of meditation to avoid being honest with myself to avoid looking inside at what was going on this was it in a way I had superimposed this practice on myself which was supposed to be the answer for everything and it meant that I didn't really need to look or explore my own experience I could I could just go back to the mantra and it it worked enough to begin with so the meditation was taking you away from your experiences that will say I'm not saying that that know that the meditation it had some effect it brings it's it's a training of the mind and it does bring the mind to some temporary cessation so I'm not dismissing the meditation as being valued as not at all but the mind always came back and what I noticed was that the the underlying difficulties the problems that the questions they were all still there in other words just bringing the mind to this quiet place wasn't enough it wasn't going to the core of the issue and the core of this you kept it couldn't be for a while I tried to wash a veneer over it a kind of meditation advisor wash over the top of my deeper experiences but sooner or later they began to bubble up again and I could feel that there was something still that hadn't been explored that hadn't been resolved in this so this led me to her to a deeper inquiry about my experience which starts with what am I really that's a very deep question I'm doing a weak just big ask the question what am I so it was in a group setting and a different partner every few minutes and and it's it's amazing how the answer to the question changes over time and it's very illogical at times it was for me anyway but it can be very confusing at times so just very briefly talk about how that was for you you were asking yourself Who am I where did that take you in terms of investigation to begin with I I had a presumption that what I am is this individual entity and that if this individual entity practices for long enough studies hard enough this individual entity will gradually dissolve itself and of course that's that's not the case the individual entity cannot dissolve itself so I reached the stage of complete frustration of trying to get the separate entity trying to get rid of the separate entity through all these means and it didn't work so a point came when I really stopped trying to get rid of this separate entity all indeed to do anything to it stopped seeing it as the problem and just turned around and asked mass of all what is this entity that is unhappy that is searching that is trying to quiet the mind that thinks the mind is a problem I started I started to look for it and that was a very decisive turning point and I started to look for the entity which was at initiating all these so-called spiritual activities and this in a way it's then we could call it the journey home because when we when we it's the moment the prodigal son turns around he gets to the end of the possibilities of the body the mind in the world and he turns around phases himself so it was a moment when I turned around it okay and normal practices for why I'm going to stop these practices that they're like band-aids they're not going to the heart of the problem what is this one who is this one that is unhappy and this as I began to look for this one I never found it and so you have the feeling of being unhappy and you looked inside and what you're saying is you couldn't find the person or the part of you that was unhappy is that right there was my life and and in this case my spiritual life was motivated by a desire for the the entity that I believed myself to be I this inside self wants to find happiness or enlightenment I want to find I want to be enlightened I want to be happy yeah and this had I had explored it normally in the world as one does then I have began to explore it spiritually which is a kind of refinement we could say of the worldly search but nevertheless it's still a search in more in the realm of the mind in my case stilling the mind states of mind so I had tried all these things had got some temporary relief but no real satisfaction so at some stage I turned around who is this one who is this I this Rupert the wants to be happy or enlightened or peaceful whatever true okay if you're ruling my life show up what are you where are you I want to I want to know you I want to get acquainted with you so and then so that this then I started looking but we never find that one but how did you turn it around what was your process of turning it around it became clear to me that up until then I had presumed that it is I this body mind I this entity that knows the world but it came clear quite quickly to me that no it's not I this body mind that knows the world it's I this whatever exactly I am that knows the body mind and world in other words the mind and the body unknown I know my thoughts I know the body the body doesn't know I mean your cheek is not listening to these words and an earlobe is not listening to these words a thought cannot hear a thought cannot see so it became clear it in my experience no it's not a body mind that knows or experiences the body mind is experienced is known but but I know that it's known by me what is this me that is that that I know I am that is present that that is intimately myself and that is the knows thoughts but is not made out of a thought that knows sensations but is not made out of a sensation and of course wherever you look wherever you try to turn towards it it's always the wrong direction it's like if I were to ask you now to stand up and take a step towards yourself where would you go every step that you take would be the wrong direction and yet you could never get away from yourself it was like that I try to look for myself no I can't find myself in thoughts I can't find myself in sensations images feelings thoughts interested in the actual data so you looked for yourself in thoughts you looked for yourself in sensations you looked for yourself in feelings so I said to myself okay turn your attention now towards your thoughts and I would make these little exercises myself give your attention to your thoughts whatever it was I was thinking about okay simple easy what should we have for dinner tonight you give your attention to that book very easy then I would say to my cell now give your attention to your body the tingling sensation of the soles of my feet or easy I know exactly where to place my attention and then I would ask myself okay now turn your attention towards whatever it is that is aware of this thought or this sensation because whatever it is that is aware of the thought and sensation is what I call myself it is I that knows the thought that knows the sensei and so I would say okay give that one your attention turn towards that one and to begin with because because we're accustomed to focusing on objects on thoughts on sensations on perceptions I would begin to look for myself that for yet another object or a kind of super object a subtle object and I found whatever I I landed my attention on was again some subtle maybe a very subtle feeling in the body but then I would ask myself not don't give that feeling your attention give the one who knows that feeling who is aware of that give that one your attention and the way to begin with I would go out again towards an object and then it would collapse back and then I would like the impulse to go out again to find myself as some kind of a thing some kind of an object the impulse would rise up and the futility of it the impossibility of it would just automatically collapse the effort and I just found that it was so ridiculous to look for myself as some kind of an object because I already was I myself is too close to myself to be found or known as any kind of an object so there was a collapse of this looking for myself as an object and it was replaced by a sense of I am myself already I can never know it as an object but that doesn't mean that I can't know it intimately in my experience not in subject object relationship but it knows itself it became it became so clear that the the way to know myself was simply to be myself that is awarenesses way of knowing itself by being itself and it is always itself it became so obvious that I had mistaken myself for a thought or a sensation or a cluster of sensations or an image and it became it became obvious to begin with in in kind of momentary glimpses but in over time these glimpses stabilized it just became more and more obvious that I will that I was already intimately acquainted with what I was looking for you see I'm really happy you're talking about these details because I think people appreciate encouragement and we are led to believe quite a lot in the world of enlighten enlightenment adviser etc that it can be an instant waking up and your whole life changes but what I want what I like about you is your passion for your truth for the truth the commitment you were willing to put time in and experiment and you weren't going to give up it seems until you've found the truth who you truly were and this takes this is not hang on the plate is it this takes time it there are no rules it can happen in many many different ways including just walking along the street with absolutely no interest in these matters at all and bang Wow and and then it's like the rug has been pulled out from underneath you you think you can't make sense of your life anymore everything everything falls apart in your life and that's one way that's one extreme way the other extreme is that it can happen so so quietly so ungrammatically that in fact the mind may not even realize to begin with that this change has taken place it may take time for the mind to catch up and realize that the sense of identity has changed that that again is another extreme and there are all sorts of possibilities in between so yes for me it was not one big event it was more like a series of dissolutions and how how was it for you and maybe still is for you I don't know in terms of the old patterns that you had that you you thought you were the old patterns which we will have running and you have a fundamental realization which may not be sudden how is it with these old patterns trying to arise did you just be kid the realization is always sudden but it's not always immediate in fact it's quicker than sudden it's timeless because when the mind is not present there is no time so the recognition the simple recognition of our own being is timeless in that sense the best of mine can say is it's sudden that doesn't mean that it's necessarily immediate there may be a process as there was in my case a very long process of exploration and investigation so this timeless recognition or a series of timeless recognition culminates in the in the in the feeling understanding that there is no separate entity no separate awareness living inside here no no chooser no no no seer no decider or feeler that that's that is one thing sometimes called awakening but that doesn't mean that once a whole life is just instantly cleared up for nearly all of us the body and the mind have been rehearsing thoughts and feelings and activities that have revolved around the sense of being a separate self the body and the mind are in themselves their neutral they're impressionable and from a very early age that they've been conditioned to act to think to feel to relate on behalf of a of a separate entity now when this separate entity is discovered it not just theoretically but in our experience to be non-existent the old patterns in the body mind continue for some time but they're no longer fed with the belief that the separate entity around whom they revolve is real this a conscious decision no feels natural in just the same way that the body through no conscious effort on our part the body and the mind were conditioned by the belief in being a separate entity without our having to make any effort to do so just as children we were conditioned like that and the body in the mind were like sponges they just absorbed this conditioning so now that conditioning is no longer at play the separate entity has truly been seen to be non-existent so the body and the mind are now as it were reconditioned by this understanding it's like imagine you're on a beach the waves are breaking on the beach and you draw you drew a drawing in the sand with your finger the wave comes in and then the wave goes out and it erases part of the drawing it doesn't raise it all it just erases part of it the waves come in again they go out again a little bit more of it has been erased but there's still you can see still the traces of the drawing it takes some time for the waves to return the sand to its natural condition it's like that the the body mind is no longer subject to the belief in separation it's no longer being spoon-fed the belief in separation and it gradually in most cases gradually returns to its natural state and its natural state is a state of openness of transparency of sensitivity of intelligence of love it takes time but isn't there for all of us who have some degree of understanding of what you're talking about who we really are in all of us there is very much degrees I think if if we want to further realize fully realize live that understanding sure it is also an element of participation I know for myself there's when certain strong patterns come up there is that point I can see I have a choice in following the pattern yes I'm not following the pattern sometimes I'll follow it others at other times I don't but there is there is it's not as if I'm making a decision but a decision is happening and whether follow the pattern not there are two there are basically two possibilities open to us at any moment when a situation like this arises am I going to respond on the behalf of a separate entity or am I going to respond as if I was this aware presence that those are the two basic choices and so you as you say a train of thought or a reaction or a response to a situation comes up and at any moment you're free to say to yourself this train of thought and activity that I am now engaged in is it dependent upon the belief and feeling the dime a separate entity or is it based on the understanding that I am open transparent presence and therefore the so called other is also that and the answer to that question is always clear so that that's the question if gif if you want to cooperate with the fast it is not like you you take a up fine so I may need to explain it it's just okay so maybe you find yourself ten minutes down the line you're into a full-blown reaction that's and then sudden you think oh hang on okay okay then you're at the crossroads are you going to carry on what what is what is the deep feeling understanding that is motivating your thoughts and your behavior at that moment is it coming from the belief that I am a separate self or is it coming from there the under felt understanding that I am this inherently peaceful free aware presence and therefore that the other is also that the so-called other and that you have a choice then which which way are you going to go and and the way that we choose radically changes the situation it doesn't mean to say that it magically clears up the issue no that may take time to resolve but if we if we become accustomed to being this aware presence instead of pretending the we're a separate entity to take our stand as that it just becomes more and more natural just as in the past it was natural to us to take our stand as a separate entity and the world strangely in in a way magically the world reflects whichever position we choose if we choose the position of the separate entity somehow our experience in the world will confirm to us will support that position that belief it will seem to confirm that the position we are taking is true but magically if we take the position the if we abide as this presence if we live as that I think can feel from that act and relate from that this is the very same world the apparently same world confirms that our feeling understanding is true that's the beauty of it there's is one of the things you talk about in one of the books I forget one where where there's the theoretical understanding of who we really are and then there is the writ I think used the word realization of who we really are and that and I know that I know a lot of people I could include myself in that have a good theoretical understanding and yet the realization that practical integration can be very delicate and uncertain at times there's really no such thing as theoretical understanding there's either understanding or this belief understanding is always there's no such thing as a theoretical understanding that two plus two equals four you either understand it or you believe it equals five so understanding is never theoretical in fact understanding it doesn't take place in the mind so either we understand which means we we have seen in our own experience that there is no separate inside self or we believe that that is true because we have or we have read it or or we may have an intuition that it is true but may not have made it our own experience yet so it is not a problem with any of those positions does the third one where they where it happens more and more I find with people they have a glimpse they have a taste but it's not strong enough for them to be rooted there yes you we we have a taste it seems very clear what we are or rather what we are not is very clear we might be it becomes obvious to us that we're not a separate inside self it's the reactions the thoughts the activities that we have that are based on this set inside self seem so absurd and then as you rightly say to two minutes ten minutes two days later we find ourselves acting along the same old lines betraying our deep feeling of being a separate self so at that moment whenever the invitation is presented we stop and say hang on am i this separate self not to begin with we may have to slowly trace our way back we may have to go through the kind of exploration that I shared with you earlier exploring your thoughts no I'm not my thought exploring my body no I'm I'm not that and this may take time we may have to as it were walk ourselves back take ourself by the hand walk ourselves all the way back to our self until becomes clear yes it's so obvious I'm not a separate self I am this presence of awareness which knows these thoughts and images then it becomes our experience we recognize it's something in us goes yes and the old habits of thinking and feeling Peter out then as you say again we find ourselves involved we get completely caught up we seem to lose this experiential understanding our self seems to get covered over again we seem to contract inside the body mind again and off we go down a train of reactivity and whatever it is until again the invitation comes up why I'm on a minute I'm acting and I'm thinking and feeling on behalf of a separate self but am i that separate sod now this time when we go we trace ourselves back we've been here now several times it doesn't take three coats for now it's it takes two minutes and then after a while we find the invitations comes and as the invitation comes we just it color is the sense of being a separate entity it just collapses there's no more inquiring left it's just because because we've been there so many times we truly understand so then it just the old habits of thinking and feeling on behalf of a separate self they they rise up at a certain point there is the invitation there seem to be empty empty other of a real separate entity and they just drop and this leaves us more and more in our true nature or rather as our true nature of presence when I say more and more it's not quite right because it's not happening in time but for longer and longer periods of time we find ourselves abiding as presence and less and less things can seem to pull us out that the kind of thoughts and feelings and situations that that would previously have immediately precipitated the sense of separation they they no longer have the power that they used to may be just a just the beginnings of an old habit will rise up and it just never Peters out and and we just find us as naturally abiding more and more as this presence of awareness and and it becomes experientially obvious that it cannot be in fact we were always that it's not that we suddenly become that we were always that we just fail to notice it and it it cannot be disturbed even when it seems that we're being taken out that's only for thought only for imagination it's an imaginary self that goes off down the road of separation our true self never goes anywhere it's always just peacefully at home it becomes clearer we laugh at ourselves at the silliness of our self of the separate self what I like about what you're talking about here is that you're giving people encouragement not to give up so they have a glimpse they have a they do have an understanding they have a realization and then it will get covered up and forgotten about for a time and it may be minutes hours days weeks or even a year or two and yet there's always the potential I know this in myself is like a feeling of coming back it's almost like I've left and then I'm coming back and I think people need to be encouraged to remember and not think that I had it and I've lost it because they haven't lost it because you can't lose it can you you can't no you just can't give it up forgotten and yeah so what what I know you work a lot with people and people come to your meetings and the meetings are growing what would you say are the biggest obstacles that people have to finding who they truly are the belief and the subsequent feeling that we are something other than this presence of awareness all obstacles are really a variation on that on that obstacle it's just a simple childish belief that we all have that what I am is a cluster of thoughts and images and feelings and memories and coupled together with a series of sensations that make this amalgam this dense deep entity made out of all these thoughts and images and feelings and the belief that that's what I am it all comes down to that all our problems all our psychological problems are problems for the imaginary self if they're if they're traced back to their origin it always comes down to mistaking ourselves for a cluster of thoughts and images and sensations if we can call it an obstacle obstacle that that is the only obstacle it's that simple of course the the ways that that obstacle expresses itself may be colored differently in different people but it's always the same obstacle and at a certain stage we see that clearly in ourselves we see that that spiritual life is not complex it's not about lots of different ideas lots of different experiences it's it's really about one thing and when this becomes clear it kind of focuses our interest and our love for the for the truth what am I really and what is the nature of this self that I am this aware presence that I am and if we go deeply into it we find that its nature is pure openness peace lack of resistance which is another word for happiness and then we realize at some point all I have ever longed for in my life when I was out in the world searching for objects situations relationships all I was searching for was happiness was my own being which I think everyone will be happy that's what everyone everybody and this is not this topic is not just confined to a few thousand people who are interested in non duality everybody everybody all six billion of us seek if we think we're a separate entity the separate there's no such thing as a separate entity that is not in search in fact the separate entity is not an entity it is an activity of resisting what is and seeking what is not so the separate entity is an activity of seeking that is unavoidable and the act what we are seeking is always the same thing it's the dissolution of separation the dissolution of the apparent entity that is seeking that's all we are seeking all of us whether we call that peace happiness a new relationship it doesn't matter what we call it but it's the simple intimacy of our own being it's all we long for and yet people look in so many different directions there's still our culture encourages us to to look to - as soon as we feel that we're are aware a separate entity the the peace and the happiness that our innate in our own being is veiled it doesn't disappear but it seems to be veiled and therefore the separate entity that we imagined ourselves to be is by definition unhappy happiness seems not to be present and hence the separate self is always on a search out there in the world for happiness and and our culture says to us you're unhappy the way to get happy is to go after this series of objects and that's basically what our culture I mean look at it you could go out on the streets our culture is bombarding us we're saying if you do this if you get if you acquire this in the realm of the body the mind or the world you will get happiness you will get love you will get peace that's the message that is being spoon-fed to us 24/7 in in our culture it's just a mistake it's just not true we all know it's not true otherwise the search would at some stage come to an end we'd get the object we want everyone would sooner or later gets the the drink the relationship the job about and we'd be happy does it work that the search goes on forever it doesn't work someone should ring the bell sometime and and say Leroy you're our tribe during the village yes yes but our culture has so much invested in this search invested in our staying separate entities but there's a tremendous resistance to this of course in our culture and of course individually as does although we long for this it's the thing we long for most of all it's also the thing we fear most of all it's like the moth that is attracted to the flame all the moth once is the flame but the only thing the moth cannot experience is the flame because the moment it touches it it's only way of knowing it is to die and to become the flame so the the search for happiness is like that it's all we long for happiness to love peace but there's this terrific resistance in us as well because we know that to do that everything we imagine ourselves to be has to die you're fatter dissolve and for that reason and people very often experience it in intimacy it's very very common in intimate relationships that you approach intimacy and at the last minute you say I don't want to die hmm so it's very common to tune and for this reason this play this this desire for happiness and the fear of happiness the fear of the dissolution of separation repeats itself in cycles until its point either pointed out to us or until we spontaneously come to it on our own what we long for can never be found in the realm of the mind the body or the world at some stage we have to have the honesty the courage the clarity and the love to face that fact and not to dance around it and do you ever lose this realization this space this point this who you truly are no it's not something that can be lost but it's okay but but that doesn't mean to say that from time to time old habits of thinking and feeling on behalf of the separate self don't reappear they do I should say lose touch with it yes yes it's I don't know that one can ever say never so given it I'll give an example I know you're a big mansion knighted fan and they played Barcelona in the of course the Champions League final how were you were Messi scored that amazing goal and pretty much finish the match something in you go oh no or was it I I get totally involved in enjoying enjoying the the game the emotions of it the tensions the release of tension I just let that whole thing happen I let my body mind just be involved with the world in this case it's a it's a screen and then I just let let my body mind participate but certain the body mind goes on on waves but all those waves they happen in myself they never they never really obscure the underlying peace and lack of resistance which is happiness but but I just going back to what I was saying earlier I don't think one can ever say never in the sense that you we have no idea when an old habit of thinking and feeling on behalf of a separate self is going to reappear who knows I don't know what my thoughts can be in two moments or two minutes time have no idea a situation could arise that might trigger a thought or feeling of separation I don't know it happens from time to time but what I've noticed is that it over the years it happens less and less and when it happens they they don't have the power previously a thought would arise the thought would be engaged with and that thought might might initiate an activity or indeed a relationship that relationship may last many years it was based on the sense of lack so now the thought may arise that an old residue of thinking or feeling may thinking of or feeling on behalf of a separate self may arise but it it arises but it no longer comes with with roots or or tentacles it arises are pit dances for a little bit and it's because it's got no substance because it's not invested with any belief it's got nothing to hold on to it just it's like a little little display at the farmer can hip it Peters out it doesn't last long I'm also thinking that before we started recording we would talk about the film Sena which we both saw quite recently about ant instead of the Brazilian racing car driver and I know a couple of things that you've really loved in that so he was that was such a beautiful film because it illustrates so so nicely what we're talking about here you remember in the film he from an early age age of five or so he wanted to be a one driver so there Ben is terrific preparation intense preparation through his childhood and youth and he finally won his first Grand Prix I don't I think it was in Japan I remember he must have been you he was young but and he was interviewed afterwards and the guide the interviewer said to me you must feel totally elated now you finally realized something you've been training for it day in day out for years you must be so ecstatic and he paused for a while and an interview said it would walk more what do you feel now and he paused and he just said very simply I feel peace and it was such a he was obviously a truth lover he obviously and he taught a lot about God but he was that's the way he formulated it but he obviously had a deep interest in the nature of his experience and his his driving was in a way part of his quest it wasn't just an outward quest to to to win and achieve it was allied in him to an inner quest which was actually much more important to him later on a few years later when he had when he had won a number of Grand Prix's again the interviewer said to him um he'd broken all the world records and everything and inclusive you you must have finally achieved what you want now and he said what I want is happiness and I haven't achieved it yet so he was unusually aware of what he truly wanted and knew that somehow this activity had a much deeper significance for him it wasn't he didn't want Fame he didn't want money he didn't want recognition I mean he may have wanted all those things but he didn't really want them what he wanted was peace and happiness yes and there was also a point where he was asked where who was the person he most enjoyed racing against and he had to really think and he remembered when he was England he was young and he was just driving go-kart and there was an English guy he used to love racing against he says they were really good friends and it was just the love of racing that wasn't money or fame or any of that pressure involved I think that says a lot about them as well and a lot about just the thrill the love of driving and competing without everything else added on you see it so often in in sportsmen all happens in in in all areas of life that there is this terrific buildup of tension which is a form of seeking that the mind and the body are both agitated into this high state of tension and then as a certain stage that there is this release you win something you score a goal whatever it is and there at that moment there is a complete collapse of the mind this collapse of the tension as what you desired as has been achieved so what actually happens then is that the the agitation of the mind desire comes to an end it falls what happens our true nature is no longer being veiled by the agitated seeking there is this moment it actually it's not a moment it's timeless of bliss the mind then kicks in and says oh aren't I wonderful eyes I scored or I won or whatever it is then it all gets covered up again or seemingly covered up but there is an it's that it's that moment that timeless moment for which all sports in fact it is that moment for which all desires are orientated my son I bought him a pair of goalkeeping gloves recently in ER I went in back into the kitchen I started cooking dinner and I could hear this rustling in the next room and I knew he was he was fishing out his goalkeeping class and he came running in and any sit up I love the feeling of having something new he didn't say I love my goalkeeping gloves he said I love the feeling of having something new in other words when I get what I want this seeking this agitation is winding up of the body mind it dissolves and that's the moment I love he do in his childish mind he said I love the feeling of having something new what he meant was I love my true nature I love the collapse of seeking the collapse of wanting the collapse of my wanting there to be anything other than just what is present now it's that all our desires are seeking only that in fact all our desires seek only desirelessness that's what all desires are orientated towards it's all anybody ever truly wants Rupert I'm looking at the clock I'm going to have to finish think that's a perfect place to finish thank you very much for coming along and talking to us I'm just going to show to the camera your books the transparency of things which has been out for a couple of years and ribbits first book a very deep book and then he has two books that are actually published in the autumn presence the seamless intimacy of experience and presents the art of peace and happiness and he's also featured in conversations on non-duality which is 26 interviews from conscious TV which you can also get so thank you again Rupert thank you everyone for watching conscious TV and I hope we see you again soon goodbye you hello my name is Rupert Spiro and I'm here today with conscious TV and Eleonora Gilbert and I are going to engage in a contemplative exploration of the true nature of our experience hello I'm Alan Orion so at least to begin with I would recommend closing our eyes and simply allow the mind the body and the world to be exactly as they are from moment to moment without the slightest intention to change them or manipulate them in any way and if you find that there is some subtle agenda then that's fine that subtle agenda is just what's appearing in this moment you simply be the aware presence to which the mind the body and the world are appearing in fact we don't really know a mind body or world all we know of the mind in this moment is just the current thought or image just let the current thought do whatever it wants it doesn't have to think about what is being spoken here give your thoughts total freedom nor do we actually know the body as it is normally conceived to be in fact if our eyes are closed the body is just a tingling amorphous cluster of sensation so let the label body leave it on one side and just allow the current sensation to appear to be exactly as it is in your open empty aware presence to feel free to move change positions whenever you like and likewise we don't really know a world as it is normally conceived we just know the current perception that is the current sight sound taste texture or smell so just let the current perception be exactly as it is the faint hum of the air conditioning the sound of traffic in the background the sound of this voice the sound of people talking in the next room however our perceptions are appearing give them total freedom and in giving our thoughts sensations and perceptions total freedom to be as they are we reclaim the inherent freedom of our true nature this aware presence which knows thoughts sensations and perceptions is inherently free of them like the space of a room is inherently free of whatever objects appear within it taste the freedom and independence of your own intimate being be that knowingly we are that whether we realize it or not but we usually mistake ourselves for a thought or a sensation so now we just reclaim what was always ours nothing special needs to happen to be this presence no manipulation of the mind the body or the world no cessation of our thoughts in particular is necessary the freedom that is inherent in our true nature of awareness is independent of the body the mind and the world taste that freedom be that freedom see in your experience that you this aware presence cannot be disturbed by thoughts sensations and perceptions just like a TV screen cannot be disturbed by an image that appears on it taste this don't think about it ask yourself is there any sense of lack present in my self don't refer to thoughts or sensations refer to yourself the one that knows thoughts and sensations can you find any lack there there may be thoughts of lack there may be feelings of lack just let them be exactly as they are but you the one that knows these thoughts and feelings is anything lacking for that one could could this one could yourself resist any thought or sensation or perception thoughts may resist feelings may resist but can you resist anything yes just kind of flood yes you're just pure openness you don't know the meaning of resistance thought does feeling does let them be if there are thoughts and feelings of resistance just let them do their thing you the space in which they appear is inherently without resistance nothing can touch you nothing can harm you nothing can agitate you nothing can destroy you change you move you and yet you touch all things intimately you this aware presence depends on nothing but all seeming things depend on you for their existence taste that freedom that independence that inability to resist the current experience could you ever lose this lack of resistance could any experienced end turn you into a resisting presence whatever see in your experience now whatever the condition of thoughts sensations and perceptions this freedom this peace or lack of agitation this happiness or lack of resistance is always present at the heart of every experience it is intimately yourself it never it is never parted from you it is the only security and it is with you all the time it is you now a question that I'm often asked is goes something like this this all makes very good sense when my eyes are closed everything seems to be inside me but when I open my eyes I seem to contract inside the body and the world and others seem to be projected outside again so let your eyes open now and let's continue this exploration with our eyes open and this of course is a prelude to continuing this exploration when we have left the privacy and comfort of this room and we're driving home in rush hour and when there are far more demanding perceptions and thoughts calling for our attention to see that what we're saying here is always the case under all circumstances so now the world suddenly appears all this room suddenly appears as a visual perception which seems to announce I am an outside world I am distant separate other than you than myself so let's take the visual perception of this room all we know of this room is the experience of seeing yes we remove the experience of seeing there's no experience of the room so in fact thought says there is a room there is an outside world but if we come close to our experience we we see no we don't know the outside world we just know our perception of an outside world but we can come closer still to our experience we don't know a perception we just know the experience of perceiving in this case the experience of seeing where does seeing take place yes right night he and where does he does it take place five meters away from you two meters away one inch away how close is seeing like I say it's it's closer than closing fact in the experience of seeing can you find one part that does the seeing and another part that is seen or is seeing one seamless substance it's one thing my substance and what is the relation of your self not yourself the body yourself this aware presence how close is it to the seeing well there is no distance what's isn't there there's no there's no distance or difference there's one substance than it is yourself the only substance present in seeing is yourself it's it's closer it's not that there are two things close to each other it's that there are not two things there are divided are not two things there to begin with there is just the seamless intimacy of experiencing and when we reach out as it were and try to touch what is the substance of seeing hearing touching tasting smelling what substance is there all we find is this aware presence our self now sometimes the mind comes as his arm when I touch the word there we are there we have something we have an outside world something that is not me so touch your sofa your only knowledge of the sofa is the experience of sensing touching yes touching and seeing but leave seeing on one side just touching now where does touching take place right here right now right here it's not distant from are there two substances present in the experience of touching and myself and an object yeah especially you know clearly if I close my eyes is even closer no it doesn't get closer close your eyes does touching become closer it just feels like open your eyes does anything that does anything when you open your eyes does anything appear at a distance seeing appears it does it appear at a distance not detaching there does it is seeing further away than thinking no is any is any is sensing since the soles of your feet for instance yes and now hold that up as one experience that the sensing called the soles of my feet and seeing of this body ruined does one take place closer than the other is one made out of me and the other not made out of me is sensing made out of me but seeing made out of not me saw one thing it's all one thing what are we going to call that one thing we can't give it a name because they give it a name means to imply some kind of an opposite it is this rather than that that is why the ancients were so wise and so humbled they just said it is not - they didn't say it is one they they knew it cannot be named it cannot be found as an object it is the intimacy of our own being that is the substance of all experience it all experiences utterly intimate and the name we give to this intimacy is love love is the natural ever-present condition of all experience so now as we leave this room in fact we don't leave this room awareness never does anything and never goes anywhere what's the kind of happiness that a flow of seeing hearing touching smelling thinking will take place it'll all take place in our self made out of our self so this meditation if we can call it a meditation it never ends it's not an activity of the mind that we're engaging in the mind can go off and do whatever it needs to do the body can go off it can all we know is a flow of thinking imagining sensing feeling hearing seeing touching all equally intimate it's very beautiful equally close no separation is ever actually experienced so stay with that intimacy and it's quite possible to to take the intimacy that we feel now to go out into life to carry on a completely ordinary everyday life responding to whatever presents itself without ever losing this sense of intimacy everything equally close equally made out of my self this open empty luminous presence of awareness thank you it's so sweet it's very sweet yes thank you Eleanor yeah thank you you

Channel: conscioustv

Views: 160,774

Rating: 4.8188496 out of 5

Keywords: Rupert, Spira;, Non-Duality;, Advaita, The Art Of Peace, And Happiness

Id: dKZRInhfe4g

Length: 76min 43sec (4603 seconds)

Published: Tue Jul 05 2011