Non-Calvinist Interpretation of Romans 9

so far I've been getting pretty good responses on the stuff I've been dealing with Calvinism online and I'm happy to hear that and I've been getting good responses from you guys and that means a lot to me as well but today we're gonna be looking at Romans chapter 9 I don't think that this passage teaches Calvinism but what I want to do is is this um my wife told me that she's heard this this passage taught and there's some of the verses in in Romans 9 where she goes I've never heard someone explain this you know in a way that made sense to me and there's just some difficult passages and so what I want to do is tackle the hard passages and the hard verses that are in Romans 9 and I want to do this even though it's gonna be I'm gonna offer you the non Calvinist interpretation of that I want to do it thoughtfully carefully like brothers in fellowship with mother my Calvinist friends my Calvinist brothers and sisters and so we're just wrestling with these topics that should not divide us we're trying to understand Romans 9 and this is the chapter Romans 9 is the chapter when someone says so you're not a Calvinist then I go no I'm not a Calvinist and they say what do you do with Romans 9 this is just it's just a natural thing to pop up so I would remind us of one thing before we jump into the text which is what Peter said about Paul's writings Peter wrote about Paul's writings and he said that in Paul's writings there are some things that are hard to understand now Peter was a smart guy and he knew the gospel and he knew the truth of those things but he also knew that some of the stuff Paul wrote was challenging topics he didn't shy from them but it becomes difficult to understand so we're gonna labor to comprehend some of the harder parts of Romans 9 I don't want to dodge them and I encourage you guys drink you a hit me up go ahead and ask me those questions if you feel as though you they've been unanswered through the course of teaching I'm not gonna be offended by that I'm not gonna to think you're attacking me or and even if you were totally disagreeing with me I'm really okay with that we believe this text is God's authoritative Word not every little thing I say it's how we can we can seek wisdom on those things okay so Romans 9 through 11 actually not just romans 9 but romans 9 through 11 this is a topically cohesive section Romans 9 through 11 these three chapters it's about the Jewish people it answers a few interesting questions like why is it that the Jews didn't all receive Jesus as Messiah why didn't they accept him he's the Messiah he's prophesied in the Old Testament why did they not all receive him that's a natural question to ask what is God doing through this this rebellion of in large part of these of the Jewish people against Jesus and what is God's plan for Israel in the future we'll get there in Romans 11 so as you're going through the the passage Romans 9 through 11 we have to realize that Paul is correcting Jewish popular religious teaching of his time and what he's doing is he's actually bringing an Old Testament teaching to do that so he's saying you know like what Jesus said Jesus goes you've heard it said and then he would quote maybe a misapplication or misunderstanding or a partial understanding of the Old Testament then he would explain it more fully he's correcting sort of the popular religion of his day with careful thoughtful teaching of his own and that is what Paul's doing but but you have to understand it's super-important to Paul that everything he corrects as far as this Jewish thinking goes that he does it with Old Testament Scriptures now this is a great way to read Romans and I'd recommend it go through Romans sometime on your own and read it as if you were a Jewish person which is easy if you are that's even easier but read it as if you're a Gentile if your non Jew read it as if you were Jewish thinking how would I understand this if I was Jewish and then you'll make more sense of why he brings up certain issues in certain topics because they're natural to the Jewish person to wonder about those issues some people see Romans 9 through 11 is like a giant parenthetical section like it just kind of has plopped in the middle of Romans it doesn't really fit exactly he just kind of randomly saying let's just talk about Jewish issues and Gentile issues and put it right here I used to see it that way when I was younger and but now that I'm old and wise I see it as a natural result of going through the book of Romans I mean if you read Romans like a like maybe of a Gentile tends to where you ignore certain verses and you gravitate towards others you'll see 9 through 11 s why is he talking about this but if you read it more thoughtfully you'll understand so let me give you an example of how this whole Jew Gentile these issues of Jews and Gentiles goes through the whole book of Romans so alcorta few passages in Romans chapter 1 he starts off by introducing verse 1 Paul a bondservant of Jesus Christ called to be an apostle separated to the gospel of God which he promised before through his prophets in the holy scriptures concerning his son Jesus Christ our Lord who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead through him we've received Grace and Apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for his name among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ Jesus Messiah so he's like Jesus is the Old Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament he's the Messiah of the Jews and he's out here for all nations to receive so he's already in the beginning he's talking about these Jewish Gentile issues isn't he in Romans 1 verse 16 you know the first part of this verse but do you know the last part for I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes for the Jew first and also for the Greek so he's dealing with this Jewish and Gentile Jew Jew Greek issues Romans 2 now on to chapter 2 verses 8 through 11 it says but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness indignation and wrath that's what comes upon them tribulation and anguish on every soul of man who does evil of the Jew first and also of the Greek but glory honor and peace to everyone who works what is good to the Jew first and also to the Greek before there's no partiality with God so he's gonna these Jewish Gentile issues which as a Gentile you're like who what's the point but to the Jew I think it's more natural to go no this needs to be explained God you have a chosen people Israel then all of a sudden all these Gentiles are coming under Messiah like explain this explain this Romans 2 verses 28 and 29 for he's not a Jew who's one outwardly nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh but he's a Jew who's one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart in the spirit not in the letter whose praise is not from men but from God so again what what is what is true Jewishness what is God really looking for as the book progresses as Romans progresses we realized that it is essential essential to Paul and the holy spirit essential that the things that are being taught in Romans are grounded in Old Testament teachings that these are not this is not a new religion this is a fulfillment of Old Testament teachings and prophecy this is super important and I think many many New Testament believers they miss this because unlike the Jew who grew up with the Old Testament and then they come to the new and they go haha one is the fulfillment of the other we often start with the New Testament and then we wonder how the Old Testament fits in with it when really it's the other way around you know it's it's so it's essential to Paul into the Holy Spirit that we realize that the New Testament gospel is an Old Testament truth so in chapter 3 Paul uses the law to show that man is in need of grace all have fallen short of the glory of God and he uses the Old Testament quoting it to prove that this is the case it's not a new thing in Chapter four he shows us that salvation by faith is an Old Testament reality he talked about how Abraham was saved by faith how David was saved by faith and that his sins were forgiven and he quotes Old Testament passages to support this idea in Chapter five he connects this whole concept to Adam Jesus is the the last Adam and then and then there's Adam who would be the original Adam right the first Adam and you have this this important thing that you if you were writing Romans did you probably would just skip all this stuff right but but Paul is is showing us the New Testament fulfillment of Old Testament truths in chapters 6 through 8 it gives us the spirit filled life and deals with the law and how the law intersects with the gospel and and and what law are we under now as Christians all that all that sort of thing in chapters 9 through 11 and Paul resolves like leftover issues concerns that you would have as a Christian or a Jew who is saved or is considering Christianity considering saying that Jesus is the real Messiah you're thinking these things over so you might be wondering about some things that's why I chapters 9 through 11 quotes the Old Testament constantly it just keeps quoting the Old Testament it's to see God's prophetic plan in Israel and the gospel and to answer questions like why haven't all the other Jews received Messiah what what is God's ultimate plan through this what you know show me in the Old Testament that this is legitimate that's that's what he's doing now that there's a Jewish mistake that was made by many of the Jews of Jesus's time their mistake was they made what Jesus was doing all about their earthly Kingdom Jesus will you now set up your kingdom they wanted Jesus to be that deliverer right that early now he will come and do that but they made it all about that and they missed out on the idea that he was giving them the bread of life you know he was giving them salvation forgiveness but there is also a mistake we can make nowadays our mistake is making everything in Romans 9 all about salvation and not realizing that some of it has to do with some other promises God has given Israel because there is in the Old Testament an awful lot God has told Israel and if you're gonna say that Jesus is the fulfillment of these things then how does it connect how does it connect to the promises so that will make more sense as we go through Romans 9 but my point here is let's not read Romans 9 thinking every single statement is automatically about salvation sometimes things are about selection about what God is doing through Israel how he chooses Israel as a people and as I said when I started write some things Paul writes are hard to understand but hopefully it will make more sense so what I want to do right now is read romans 9 the whole thing why because this is what we're studying is this chapter and if we can get it in into your mind what's gonna happen as I read it is you'll have questions that pop up in your head Oh what about that wait what what's that oh I get that and you'll see the connection of the whole chapter and then when we go through a verse by verse it'll make more sense so here we are Romans 9 1 again I'm currently using the new king inferring that says I tell the truth in Christ I'm not lying my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart for I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren my countrymen according to the flesh who are Israelites to whom pertain the adoption the glory the covenants the giving of the law the service of God and the promises of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh Christ came who is over all the eternally blessed God amen but it is not that the Word of God has taken no effect for they are not all Israel who are of Israel nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham but in Isaac your seed shall be called that is those who are of the who are the children of the flesh these are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted as the seed for this is the word of promise at this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son and not only this but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man even by our father Isaac for the children not yet being born or having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works but of him who calls it was said to her the older shall serve the younger as it is written Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated what shall we say then is there unrighteousness with God certainly not for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom ever I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom ever I will have compassion so then it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who shows mercy for the scripture says to Pharaoh for this very purpose I've raised you up that I may show my power in you and that my name may be declared and all the earth therefore he has mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills he hardens you will say to me then why does he still find fault for who has resisted his will but indeed o man who are you to reply against God will the thing form to say to him who formed it why have you made me like this does not the Potter have power over the clay from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor what if God wanting to show his wrath and to make his power known endured with much long-suffering the vessels of Wrath prepared for destruction and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of Mercy which he had prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he called not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles as he says also in Hosea I will call them my people who were not my people and her beloved who was not beloved and it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them you are not my people there they shall be called the sons of the Living God Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea the remnant shall be saved for he will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth and as Isaiah said before unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed we would have become like sodom and we would have been made like gomorrah what shall we say then the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained to righteousness even the righteousness of faith but Israel pursuing the law of righteousness has not attained to the law of righteousness why because they did not seek it by faith but as it were by the works of the law for they stumbled at the stumbling stone as it is written behold I lay in Zion a stumbling stone in a rock of offense and whoever believes on him will not be put to shame you know this is a chapter that was clearly written to be studied not just not not merely read out loud I mean there was scripture reading done even in the early church they would just read passages of Scripture but this is one where you know that people would hear it be like I need to think about that there's a lot going on in this chapter so let's let's dig in and again I'm gonna I'm gonna as it comes up I'll target the issues of Calvinism because I think that this is it's often ignored often teachers will teach around the issue if they don't agree with Calvinism they don't they sort of dodge this versus that the Calvinist would be like hey man this teaches my theology so I want to look at them and be thoughtful about it and hopefully it will answer your guys questions at least to the best of my ability so Romans 9 1 I told the truth in Christ I'm not lying my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart for I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren my countrymen according to the flesh whose that those are the Israelites right there's a those are his fellow Jews by blood they're their Jewish people they're born as part of the same chosen people that he's part of and he has great sorrow and continual grief in his heart when he thinks about them not being saved and before we go on to any other theological stuff I just want to stop for a second and say like some really good I think pastoral insights look at this this is great sorrow continual grief was Paul always happy he has great sorrow and continual grief every time he thinks about his unsaved fellow Jewish men and women he's just like oh it breaks my heart the thing about about comfort is that God comforts us but he doesn't necessarily always remove the thing that causes us grief he just provides us more comfort than the grief that's it it's just that I have more comfort than grief and I'm more Hope than sorrow but he doesn't remove it yet there's a time coming where he'll wipe away every tear and everything's completely resolved but that time is not just yet verse 3 says for I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ might for my brethren that's intense I I don't know that I could pray this about anybody because I'm like what I wish myself to be lost for eternity that they might have salvation maybe this is a maybe this is a flaw in my own my own lack of love for others do I care this intensely about people Paul he's not gonna do this he could wish it but it doesn't work because Paul you're not a suitable sacrifice for him the sacrifice has already come what he's just showing us is the grief in his heart it's not as though you could take somebody else's place in that sense Jesus already took your place you had to be rescued to start with you want to jump back in that's not gonna help anybody so do you do you care like this do you care like this in fact I would say this if if Paul cares this much about the Jews that are not saved that don't know Messiah isn't it safe to say that God cares that much at least that much perhaps more that God's grief over their lack of having accepted Christ that that grief would be greater even than Paul's I think so I think so it is an odd feature within count ISM that it seems to imply that Paul wanted people saved that God doesn't want saved because if you have the choosing of God saying no I want them saved and you I don't then those unsaved Israelites are simply out of God's election unsaved whereas I think the biblical teaching would be God loves everybody he wants all people saved but he leaves he leaves this path through Christ and lets people make choices and that is his predestined a will to do that but I think we should apply this to our own unsaved family and the people in our culture that are unsaved and if if you like me can say Paul I don't I don't I don't have the same heart you have for unsaved people then maybe we need to make it a regular part of our prayer life God give me a heart that is burdened for people who don't know you give me a heart that cares and it is driven by compassion and love to proclaim the truths of Christ to people around me and not just to be like well those are their choices and that's the living they decided but actually really really honestly pray for more of that so verse 4 he says who are Israelites to whom pertain and he lists seven special things about Israel about the Israelites the adoption the glory the covenants the giving of the law the service of God the promises and then of course you have of whom are the fathers in front of a court of the flesh Christ came so that Jesus himself coming from them but I want to focus on on really these issues what what is the adoption the adoption is is the idea that Israel was adopted nationally this pertains to them God adopted them you know in exodus 422 he says Israel's my son my first-born Israel had a national relationship with God a national relationship of adoption and I think that that's the reference of to whom pertains the adoption the glory well the glory of God was it was in the temple he actually it was the only nation where God like placed his glory there in that nation with those people in the wilderness his very glory led them forth in the pillar of fire and Pilton the in the cloud and then we have God's glory coming to the Temple in Jerusalem when it was finally built so we've got God's glory there I mean this pertains to Israel isn't this wonderful then we have the covenants this pertains to Israel the covenants there's a covenant with Abraham circumcision was the sign of this covenant but it was a blessing on Abraham's descendants and that the world would be blessed through them ultimately referring to Christ there is the Mosaic Covenant which was the giving of the law and it was it was sealed in blood and there was a it was a conditional thing they have to obey and they'll be blessed disobey and they'll be cursed but that was a covenant that God did with them and then the the last one I'll mention is in Jeremiah 31 God talks about the new covenant which Jesus fulfilled when he came and said this is the new covenant in my blood so there's multiple covenants that Israel had with God and the new covenant that pertains to them it's it is for them for the Jew first and then the Greek but the Gentiles by extension are brought into this covenant but it was for Israel it pertains to them that's exciting I mean that's that's really neat I'd be really excited if I was Jewish I'd be like look at my heritage man look it's just Irish like I don't know that that's that exciting of a heritage much a sermon on my family then number four the giving of the law the giving of the law we sometimes do a disservice to God's law number like boy I'm glad I'm not under the law aren't you and we like chuckle and laughs the law was good man the law was glorious it protected Israel and it showed God's provision and guiding hand upon them what other nation had laws from God given to them it was an honor not a burden the failure is in man's of to fulfill the Lum and rebelling against God that's the sorrow on the failure but the law is good number five the service of God that word it refers to worship and it could be related to the priesthood the festivals all the ongoings at the temple that this stuff is related to man being pleasing to God where God goes here's how you can serve me here's how you can follow me here's how you can be pleasing to me and all these pictures of Christ's that are in there and and all this stuff so these are these all pertain to Israel and then finally the promises the promise is it and this seems to be a generic promises God has promised Israel a whole bunch of stuff a whole bunch of stuff and those promises still pertain to Israel and Paul's talking about the Israel according to the flesh he goes literally there are physical descendants of Abraham and the promises of God are still upon them and we'll get more into that as we get into the next you know two chapters after nine about God's future plans for Israel this is that future I think the disciples so eagerly expected thought Jesus would bring right away but it was coming at the second coming of Christ not the first coming just like Moses came twice right he came once he was rejected he came back again he was received just like Joseph was rejected by his brothers then later he was received I mean we have we have multiple people like Jephthah in the book of Judges was rejected by the Jews and then he was later received by them that these are pictures of how Jesus rejected and then received a second time around so these promises will come about we'll get more into that later but the the context what is Paul saying in verses 1 through 5 he's like my heart breaks I want to see these Jewish people walking with Jesus and knowing Messiah Yeshua Messiah I want them to know him and he says and you know what look at all the glorious things these are truths God has given them the the the adoption the glory the covenants the giving of the law of the service of God the promises these are upon Israel Jesus the Messiah he came through Israel so what about God's commitment to Israel but they've largely not accepted the gospel not entirely but largely but what's up with that so that's the issue and then here comes the explanation in starting in verse six it is not that the Word of God has taken no effect so it's not like those promises don't work or don't apply all those things are still true but he starts to explain for they are not all Israel who are of Israel Israel of course is the name of a nation but it's also the name of a guy Jacob whose name was changed to Israel everybody who's his child isn't necessarily of Israel part of that nation in God's in God's purpose and plan and all that so verse 7 it says nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham but in Isaac your seed shall be called that is those who are the children of the flesh these are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted as the seed for this is the word of promise at this time I will come in Sarah shall have a son now remember it's important to Paul and the Holy Spirit to establish that the New Testament teachings are Old Testament truths so here's what he's saying just because you're a child of Abraham it doesn't mean you're part of Israel now the Jew would actually agree with this they'd be like of course right because in Isaac your seed should be called remember Abraham didn't have just Isaac who else did he have Ishmael and it will and Ishmael let ishmael live before you lord and god says no no in fact let me read to you genesis 17 verses 18 through 21 this is the Old Testament grounding for this it says in Abraham said to God oh that Ishmael might live before you as inheriting the promise that you've given me then God said no Sarah your wife shall bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his descendants after him and as for Ishmael I've heard you behold I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly he shall be get twelve princes and I will make him a great nation but my covenant I will establish with Isaac whom Sarah shall bear you at the same time at the set time next year so Abraham had other kids in fact it wasn't just Ishmael he actually had six other boys after his wife died he married a woman named cateura Regenesis 25 it's people Regenesis 25 they never noticed that part but yeah Abraham God had another probably concubine kind of somewhere we have a marriage and not marriage but they had these other things going on in between that were weird anyway so he has six other boys through cateura and none of them are the inheritors of this promise just one of them so even though it's like your descendants it's not all of your descendants is it no that's Paul's point that's the point the Old Testament makes it clear that not every descendant of Abraham is going to carry those those things we mentioned the adoption the glory the covenants the giving of the law of the service of God the promises these are not all going to be in all of Abraham's descendants in other words what it says in verse 8 here it's not according to the flesh it's according to the promise it's not about your genetics it's about God's promise so I can't just say but I'm Jewish and therefore I have salvation and therefore I'm in God's plan and I'm in God's purpose because we're the selected nation because even in the Old Testament it didn't quite work just like that did it so it goes on that was about it's not about genetics as one guy puts it's not about who your grandpa is just kind of crude but the idea is that yes it's not about just that verse 10 though let's read on it says and not only this but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man even by our Father Isaac now we're going down to Isaac's kid we're very nice if your seat you'll be called so Abraham's kids now it'll be Isaac's kid verse 11 for the children not yet being born nor having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works but if him who calls it was said to her the older shall serve the younger see Rebekah is pregnant and she has twins inside of her womb twins and gods like I'm picking one not the other but I thought in Isaac your sea would be called all the descendants of Isaac for sure right but it's one and not the other because God has his sovereign choice that he's making I think it's why this point in verse 11 not to assume election means the Calvinist doctrine of election it's a word that means choice it's a word they means choice okay not every even theologically important words don't always carry the same meaning throughout all the books of the Bible you need to it's just like in any other language sometimes you just use the word to use the word sometimes you mean the doctrine here it's just seems to be the purpose of God according to choice might stand not of works so the this is different than the situation with Ishmael and Isaac Isaac it was like according to promise not according to genes you know just have to have Abraham's blood but with these two kids it's a reversal of expectations the older serves the younger because the one that even though was slightly older right they're twins but Esau is born first and then we have Jacob coming next so he gets the birthright he gets the inheritance he gets the major major promise that's how it's supposed to be and God reverses it seemingly because he wants to I mean God just that's how he wanted to do it so God has a plan he has an agenda and he can narrow the promise while keeping the promise and do you see how this this kind of if you're Jewish going why is it that we have not all received Messiah and then Paul starts showing you how not everyone who's descended from Abraham is necessarily an inheritor of these promises there's a selection that's going on to the Jewish reader I think this is a big deal how can they disagree that Jacob was chosen over Esau you can't you're like of course you was kids if not it's not even us this is obviously this was God's choice it's an Old Testament truth that not all who are Abraham's children are heirs of Abraham's promises of the Covenant it's not really a bloodline that's about Isaac not a bloodline but when it comes to Jacob it's different it's not about works that's the point about Jacob verse 11 not of works is this about salvation no god I don't think I was choosing Jacob and his descendants to be saved and Esau and his descendants to be condemned that's where we make a mistake we make it every every toy Scott makes is always about salvation but that's not the case here it's about the carriers of the promise and the inheritance and the things that God's gonna do through Abraham so the Jews who would carry that namesake and carry that promise it was not of works and it was not merely of blood there's more to it than that it's of God's ultimate choice verse 13 here's the verse that messes people up here we go as it is written Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated this is the verse that messes people up as I said but let's view it in context here's some questions I have I mean first off what I've heard people say is look God chose Jacob for salvation chose Esau for reprobation or to be to be damned to be condemned to hell one as does V say it wants to be condemned yeah that's the way does God just chose one to love chose one to hate and that's up to God and you have no choice in the matter I think that that disagrees with the rest of the cheese and ghost scripture but let's reasonably do this because I've heard a commentary in fact as I was studying this week who they read this jacob i've loved but he saw i've hated and the commentator went did god hate esau of course not I love when commentators say silly things and just add of course or obviously in front of it as if that suddenly makes them right if I'm gonna tell you that this doesn't mean the what the Calvinist perspective would be on it which if you just read the verse in isolation that would totally make sense if I'm gonna tell you that that's not what it means I need to give you reasons to think that's not what it means so let's let's head down that path is this love and hate in the same sense as we casually think of it or is this love and hate in some other sense and I think the answer is other sense let me explain in Luke 14:26 Jesus uses the concept love and hate in the same way or in a similar way different than what you might normally think of it as he says Luke 14:26 if anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother wife and children brothers and sisters yes his own life also he cannot be my disciple wait a minute Jesus I'm pretty sure you want me to love my wife but in Luke 14:26 you tell me to hate her or I cannot be your disciple if you read the passage in Luke you find that Jesus is saying love me and by comparison hate for others do I actually hate my mother or father any of them no it has to do with a choice I'm picking Jesus over them that's the same context as Jacob I've loved I picked him he saw I hated I didn't pick him I picked one for the promise and not the other and it's not even a Salvation choice that's the simplest way to understand Jacob I loved Esau hated and I can support it with Jesus's own words but there's more in Genesis 29 verses 30 and 31 love and hate are used in a similar sense same Hebrew words as well it says then Jacob also went into Rachel remember he had two wives Rachel and Leah he married Leah by accident he married Rachel on purpose it's very strange weird stuff I like how the Bible just records actually what happened and doesn't even pretend to sugarcoat people's lives so Jacob also went into Rachel and he also loved Rachel more than Leah so he loved Rachel how much more than Leah but as we read on any served with Labonte's still another seven years when the Lord saw that leah was unloved he opened her womb but Rachel was barren well Mike that just says unloved but it's the same Hebrew word as hated which is being quoted in the Romans passage he saw I hated because that comes from Malachi we'll go there next Malachi 1 you'll want to turn there in your Bibles Malachi chapter 1 so love and hate here in Genesis 29 has to be preferring one over the other but it's not as though we're being told Jacob despised and hated Leah like he wanted to ruin her life and mess her up in every possible way this is not the case simply a selection of one over the other so what we're running into here is we don't in modern English use love and hate in these ways so it's just a I think it's a translational issue it's that we just don't use the words like that too often that's why in Genesis 30 20 29 31 it translate that word hate as unloved instead of as hate because they realize this is gonna trip you up if you think it means he hated them because in the verse before it it just says he loved Rachel more than Leah well you wouldn't say that if he hated Leah so let's go to Malachi chapter 1 because this is the passage that is quoted in Romans 913 Jacob I've loved but Esau I've hated this is where it comes from Malachi 1 and love and hate are qualified in this passage which means it's explained what is meant by love what is meant by hate Malachi 1 verses 1 through 5 this is the burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi who's this burden - who's the message to Israel is this Israel a person now this is Israel the nation this is Malachi this is the end of the end of the the Old Testament here we're talking over a thousand years later now he's talking to the nation Israel not an individual Israel it's a national thing here and he says verse 2 I have loved you says the Lord who is he left Israel corporately it's a corporate love for the people Israel says so I've loved you says the Lord yet you say in what way have you loved us was not Esau Jacob's brother so he's gonna answer the question in what way have you loved us God's saying okay I'll show you how I loved you so what do you mean by love here's the exact example was not Esau Jacob's brother says the Lord yet Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the Jackals of the wilderness even though Edom Edom is the nation from Esau Edom has said we have been impoverished but we will return and build the desolate places thus says the Lord of Hosts they may build but I will throw down they shall be called the territory of wickedness and the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever your eyes shall see and you shall say the Lord is magnified beyond the border of Israel is this about salvation no it's about a national I have loved Jacob or Israel the nation I have given them the promise of a perpetual future whereas Esau his descendants aren't getting that promise that I gave through Abraham and carries down into a group of people is not going to Esau's people so how have I not loved them well look for their sins I'm judging them and they're gonna have perpetual desolation but you guys I'm gonna bring you back I will restore you I will bless you again no matter how bad it is you'll always have a future this isn't this isn't isn't as simple as Jacob I loved Esau I hated in the story close the book it's a selection it's corporate and it's not about salvation otherwise if you want to say it's about salvation Jacob I loved he save Esau I hate it there on say that what you're saying is God chose to leave unsaved everybody who's a descendent of Esau so here's a whole nation of people that aren't saved just simply by choice but then you would say that all the nation of Jacob they are saved but that's argues against the very thing he's saying in Romans 9 so is it difficult slightly to understand maybe just a bit but we have good reasons in Luke 14:26 Genesis 29 and in Malachi 1 to say this love hate is not like the English words love hey is really talking about selection one over the other blessing of a future for one group of people over the other and it's offering a point it's offering a point so this may be meant to be an example of God's choice in election or in selection in a way that's really acceptable to the Jewish people that pulse I think trying to write toward cuz he writes to the Jews and the Gentiles in the book of Romans it's really acceptable because they would likely be thinking yeah of course God chose Jacob over Esau for the continuation of God's promise to Abraham that's something they would really be hard-pressed to deny they're gonna like this fact like yeah of course like yeah God picks us like Thank You Laura that's awesome so they're gonna have a hard time denying that but later on when Paul's making the point that the Old Testament teaches that not everyone born of Abraham is Abraham's seed now they go wow this is like Old Testament so he's he's kind of coming in the back door to it to teach the New Testament theology with Old Testament theology I want to take a minute though before we move forward and just give you a few reasons to think does God love everyone I just got actually love everyone because it says this Esau hated thing I think I've already given grounds to say that it's not a hatred of Esau in that sense it's a selection of a nation one over the other but first John 4:8 and 16 that tells us that God is love I mean it's it's literally an inherent part of his nature we're never told that God is hate he just is love it's like his default position is love in Romans 5:8 that God demonstrated his own love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us God was loving to me while I was a sinner in John 3:16 it says for God so loved the world and I take that at face value I mean it seems to be telling us he loves the world in Matthew 5:44 he says it says but I say to you love your enemies Jesus says love your enemies bless those who curse you and do good to those who hate you pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you here's a question do you think God requires you to love people he doesn't love he says love your enemies do you think God does not love his enemies but it can be more complicated than just that can't it God has a love for all people but that doesn't mean that everyone's gonna be saved because God is also a just judge Psalm 711 says God is angry with the wicked every day wait I thought you loved me how can you be angry with me have you had children you can love someone to be angry with them at the same time Psalm 5 5 it says the boastful shall not stand in your sight and you hate all workers of iniquity there is a a despising or hatred that goes alongside even though God does love them how can you love and hate them why don't you imagine if you had two children and one child as they grow up become adults one kills the other do you still love that child do you hate that child do you have some complicated feelings towards that child and I think God has God is capable of complicated thinking surprise and how the Bible seems to seems to dictate it and there's a nearby verse in Romans 11:28 that tells us something along these lines it says concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake but concerning the election their beloved for the sake of the father's somehow there there's this complex relationship of these unsaved Jewish people there there are enemies for the sake of the gospel but they're beloved for the sake of the father's there's it's complicated it's complicated and the cross becomes the turning point at the cross you can then you can then shed yourself of all the issues that would cause you to be separated from God and just enjoy his love that makes that makes perfect sense to me personally I do not struggle with this issue how can God does he love the sinner and hate the sinner does he love the sinner or hate the sinner and I'm like well both it's complicated I mean this is this is a complicated issue and again just have some kids and you'll figure it out verse 14 let's let's read on verse 14 of Romans 9 what shall we say 'then is there unrighteousness with God certainly not for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom ever I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom ever I will have compassion so then it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who shows mercy this is again in Calvinism they're gonna take this perspective it not of him who wills it's taken to mean that you don't make a freewill decision to put your trust in Christ not of him who wills means that you never have any will choice that's made freewill choice that's made to get saved on this is why in Calvinist theology regeneration that's when you're born again you have a new a new heart and new life in the Holy Spirit's inside you that happens first and then you put your faith in Jesus because they look at even your faith as a response to God saving you not faith as the thing that gives you access to salvation by faith that you are saved and to be honest this is where when I was learning about Calvinism years and years ago this is where they first started losing me on and I was like when you say we're generation happens in a backwards order that that's really confusing to me I think you're I think maybe you're just confused and that's why you're confusing me just sometimes that happened so let me let me quote to you Romans 10 verses 2 & 3 this is what I think it means when it says not of him who wills it's not about free will choice to receive Christ no no because he says it's not of him who wills nor of him who runs these things go together Romans 10 verses 2 & 3 this is the one who's willing and running for I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge for they being ignorant of God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own righteousness have not submitted to the righteousness of God this is this is why many of the Jews were not receiving Christ because they were trying to through their zeal him who wills and through their works him who runs they were trying to establish righteousness but it doesn't come through that it just comes through faith faith is not seen as this great powerful zealous act of the will I mean they're just believing in Jesus it's nothing to boast about that's kind of the whole point is that you have no boasting so who wills I think speaks of zeal not faith otherwise it contradicts the next two chapters and the rest of the book because Romans 9 is going to even continue at the end of the chapter it's gonna say but Israel pursuing the law of righteousness has not attained the law of righteousness why because they did not seek it by faith why didn't they get righteous because they didn't seek it by faith but if the point of Romans 9 was to say hey not of him who wills you don't make a freewill choice to believe in Jesus then why would it why would it then conclude they're not saved because they didn't have faith you should say we conclude they're not saved because God didn't regenerate them that would be the conclusion this is where I think I think Calvinism is not consistent with Romans 9 I think as you carefully study the text so mercy is the point it's not i will save by regeneration boom you're regenerated it's rather i will save by mercy and mercy is the cross mercy is i'm going to put my faith in jesus that's how i'll be saved not through obedience to the law simply through what jesus has done for me mercy that's what God has chosen so with that in mind let me read again verses 14 through 16 what shall we say then is there unrighteousness with God why would he be accused of unrighteousness because look at these people Israel I thought we had these promises I thought we had all these things going on Lord what's wrong why aren't you why are you bringing us into all these blessings and giving us all these things what's going on no not true before he says to Moses I will have mercy on him over I will have mercy establishing that the the whole idea of God blessing people was gonna be based on mercy not based on their works and I'll have compassion on whoever I will of compassion so then it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who shows mercy God who shows mercy verse 17 it says for the scripture says to the pharaoh for this very purpose I've raised you up that I may show my power and you them and that my name may be declared in all the earth therefore he has mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills he hardens and again this is one of those verses you if someone tells you the doctrines of Calvinism and then you read this passage you go that's looking pretty pretty strong I mean that's like dude you hardens you he gives you mercy that's that's it right there but this has an explanation that doesn't involve Calvinism and the first off it's realizing that what Paul is doing and it might feel wishy-washy to you but this is what he's doing in the passage is he starts by talking about God's choosing for promises not for salvation but for choosing a people to be the descendants of Abraham how it's not based on just their blood how it's not based upon their works but it's simply based on God's choice and this is to establish a grounding for the gospel that will come later so that you will understand it's by God's mercy and by God's grace that you will be saved his choice towards the gospel is mercy but then you get to verse 17 the scripture says to Pharaoh again for this very purpose I raised you up and then it talks about how God hardens this there's a there's a term for this it's called judicial hardening judicial hardening the idea is that God hardens people as a act of judgment against them he doesn't hard them arbitrarily and the passage doesn't say that it says he has mercy on who He wills and he hardens whom He wills but it doesn't say he has mercy arbitrarily for no reason you people you're saved and you people you're hardened just because it just says that that's his will and he's gonna do that but it's a judicial hardening that happens to pharaoh and read the passage and you can see this pharaoh in fact hardens his own heart in Exodus chapter 8 verse 15 32 and 34 three times ferrule hardens his own heart it says it he's the active agent hardening his own heart and God also hardens Pharaoh's heart cause also an active agent hardening Pharaoh's heart so it's not like God's on the sidelines just watching things happen he's engaged he's active but it's a judicial hardening but what you can do is you can complain about God and say but God you put Pharaoh in that position I mean really you didn't have to let Pharaoh be the Pharaoh it could have been some other guy some totally different guy who wouldn't have had a hard heart and for that you could say god you're in you're unjust god you're unjust for you for putting us in such positions as this like God it was that woman that you gave me and he's blaming everybody except himself but that of course falls flat um so let's let's read Exodus chapter 9 verses 13 through 16 what I want to do is just read the passage where it talks about this this very thing about how God raised up Pharaoh and about how this how this went down so we can understand Paul's point he assumes that you know these things right as he writes he assumes you're familiar with the Old Testament and we really want to strive to be so exes nine thirteen it says then the Lord said to Moses rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him thus says the Lord God of the Hebrews let my people go that they may serve me for at this time I will send all my plagues to your very heart and on your servants and on your people that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth now if I had stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence then you would have been cut off from the earth but indeed for this purpose I've raised you up that I may show my power in you and that my name may be declared in all the earth there's two options here that God gives us a Nexus 9 he says Pharaoh I could have just struck you dead for all your sins but instead I'm gonna strike you with plagues slowly so that I can glorify myself in your name so when he says raised you up it's as though the other option was just slaughtering you outright because you're evil because you deserve it so the hardening of Pharaoh's heart is a judicial hardening it's he's he deserves it this connects later with Romans 9:22 when it talks about how God endures with much long-suffering the vessels of Wrath prepared for destruction he let them live longer and he decided to bring glory from there from there things are the things that they went through right now I don't I also think that hardening doesn't necessarily mean damnation we assume that every every choice in Romans 9 is a choice for salvation or damnation but that's not the passage so God chose him for a purpose that God's name would be declared interestingly enough when they enter into the Promised Land and they meet and they go to Jericho and they meet Rahab she hears about what God did to Egypt and because of this she ends up getting saved so God is using Pharaoh judging all that hardening his heart all these things are going on but he's doing it and using it to evangelize Rahab way over there you know on the other on the other plane in the other nation so what is Paul's point though when he talked about all these things about Pharaoh being hardened and stuff like that so I think his point is one not all of Israel are guaranteed the fullness of the blessings that come to Israel number two not only that but God judicially hardens people and they can't argue because he uses Pharaoh as the example of course the Jews gonna be like yeah Pharaoh's guard you deserve that Pharaoh like God hardened your heart evil Pharaoh but what if God's judicially hardening some of Israel that's what Paul's kind of bringing them to to show the Old Testament grounding for a New Testament reality God is God is hardening some of Israel right now and he'll get into why they're hardened in chapter 10 and it's not because God simply arbitrarily decides I'm gonna harden you for no reason it's because they did not receive Christ they didn't choose the path of mercy that God gave them which was Jesus in verse 19 well gets a little further we're not gonna finish romans 9 today you will say to me then why does he still find fault for who has resisted his will another complaint yeah God raised up Pharaoh in the first place again God God God not only raised up Pharaoh he planned Pharaoh's rebellion against him so isn't that kind of God's fault this is this is what it's saying that even if man really has free will God still made man knowing that we had free will and knowing the choices that you'd make so aren't those choices his fault why did God put that tree in the garden in the first place if he knew they were gonna eat of it and this sort of thing the idea is this let's blame God for our sins that's what it comes down to why does he still find fault because who resisted his will these are the sneaky catch-22 situations that that often skeptics try to bring up and they're not new guys this is 2000 years ago this is being written this is connected I think to something Paul said earlier in Romans in Romans 3 verses 5 & 6 Paul handled a similar accusation let me read it to you if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God when he judges us it shows his righteousness even through our own righteousness what shall we say is God unjust who inflicts wrath I speak as a man or an idiot and then he says certainly not 4 then how will God judge the world see this is the conclusion if I go God if you're ultimately sovereign and if you're ultimately spinning everything into into place and even though you let us make free will choices you let us make those choices like you had some plan some will in allowing it so it's on you God what's the conclusion the conclusion is then God can't judge anybody for anything you're just trying to tie the hands of the Almighty good luck with that on Judgment Day so though this is not Calvinism it is still a very high view of God's sovereignty God could have just not made me if he didn't want me to do things I do and act the way I am the phrase like if God didn't want so many gay people why did he make so many gay people I thought well if God didn't want so many rapists why did he make so many rapists so now it makes God the author of all evil that you can find but here's the answer here's the answer verse 20 and it's an interesting answer but indeed oh man who are you to reply against God well the thing formed say to him who formed it why have you made me like this the answer is this who do you think you are like I get it that you're struggling with something I get it that you can't understand something but do you honestly think you're right and God's wrong you think that's a real possibility there are people who are angry at God because of perceived issues with God that God allowed or didn't allow cause or didn't stop or whatever and they're mad at God and they're shaking their fist at God and they can't wait I've heard people say it like whoa and I do I've got a few questions for God and I'm like no you don't know you don't you were not gonna stand before the Almighty and have like accusations against him you'll be like job where he just says like I was a fool what was I thinking I spoke of things I didn't understand that's the bottom line as this there is no place for attacking or arguing against God there is place for understanding him but what rational human being can think I'm more right than God like this is the height of foolishness in my mind like to look if you go as I look at the world it seems like God really messed up is it possible that you're just confused that maybe you're just wrong and gods right like you ever have you know these little kids they come up to you they're like well did it a data and they can't understand why you think this and they had disagree and you're just like you know kiddo maybe you should just trust that I've got like eight times more life experience than you just just take my word for it you know until you figure it out I think that applies so much more with the Lord so much more well where we're actually running out of time so we're gonna do is next week I wanted to do all of nine in one week but I knew this wasn't going to happen so next week what we're gonna do is we'll pick up right here right here where it's like about the Hodder in the clay does not the Potter at power and is this is this the doctrine of election regarding Calvinism all that sort of thing and I'm going to offer my explanation of why I don't think it is and hopefully that'll help but we'll do it well pray and then I want to take your guys questions and as I said if there's something you're like can you explain that or I don't think you answered this issue in the text I want you to bring that to me even if all I can say is I don't know to the answer I still want that to come out so let's pray father we we're excited to dig into challenging passages and challenging texts especially ones where we can discuss and have like a friendly loving debate on the issues and we we pray for wisdom on it where we pray for wisdom let us not just pick a camp and and fight for it but rather Lord let us be committed to the truth of the Scriptures and and have some humility that maybe we're understanding things incorrectly even even now as the Lord God we ask for wisdom we pray for clarity we pray for understanding well we know we know though that what you're teaching here is that all that you've done through Christ and all that has happened it is according to the teachings of even the Old Testament that has always been the plan and that I'm that your love for Israel and your heart towards them like Paul's heart for their salvation is still available through the mercies of Jesus Christ and we pray Lord we pray for Israel pray for for for Jewish people around the world right now that they would come more and more to the Messiah to the fullness of all the things that you've given them or they'd see through some of the rabbinical Judaism that the teachings they've got from rabbis and go back to the text itself well we pray that they'd see the wisdom that there is in Romans and the truth there is in Messiah Jesus name Amen [Music] [Applause] we will [Music]

Channel: Mike Winger

Views: 217,367

Rating: 4.6498094 out of 5

Keywords: Mike Winger, Romans 9, arminian view of Romans 9, non-calvinist interpretation of Romans 9, Does Romans 9 teach calvinism, Jacob I loved Esau I hated, Romans 9 doesn't teach calvinism, calvinism refuted, refuting calvinism romans 9, why did god said jacob i loved and esau i hate, calvinism refuted by scripture, romans 9 de-calvinized, non calvinist interpretation romans 9, romans 9 double predestination, election predestination romans, t.u.l.i.p., explain Romans 9, tulip refuted

Id: 7y4yjSwEkfY

Length: 59min 42sec (3582 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 28 2017