Nolan & Tracy Spenst: Evangelicals Who Became Catholic - The Journey Home (6-30-2003)

welcome to the journey home it's always a pleasure to be with you my name is Marcus Grodi your host for this weekly live program when I have the privilege of introducing to you men and women who because of their great love for Jesus Christ were drawn to his church the Roman Catholic Church my guests tonight are Noland and Tracy Spence they came from the Evangelical Church of North America Nolan was a pastor and as with any journey we can discuss so many different topics but as I heard their story and synopsis this afternoon and we reflected on it the theme that seemed appropriate for our program was the idea the struggle with the practical application of Scripture we often talked on the program about Sola scriptura and the idea that so many Christians hold that the Bible alone is sufficient for our faith and usually when we or often when we look at Sola scriptura we're saying okay we can look in the Bible and know exactly then the meaning of baptism or the meaning of the Lord's Supper or other issues but tonight the focus that I'm drawing our attention to is when it really gets down to the nuts nuts and bolts bolts how do we use the Bible practically to guide our lives I mean literally when you hear certain verses that let's say Paul spoke to Timothy almost 2,000 years ago what does that have to do with my life my marriage my work my family today I could give lots and lots of examples but just a couple jump out beloved I beseech you I was kidding in 1st Timothy 1st Peter 2 verse 13 be subject to the Lord's sake to every human institution whether it be to the Emperor as supreme or to governor's as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right well how do we apply that today literally to what extent are we to bow down to our secular rulers when especially they're passing a law that is immoral do we how do we understand that person apply it to our lives there's another verse in Paul's letter to Timothy says Timothy drink a little wine with your water well how do we apply that to our lives do we always see quickly we take many of these verses and say well you know that was only for Paul to Timothy or there was only for that time but who decides which verses apply to our lives or not because I know that there are entire denominations that take some of these verses very very literally for example a verse that ends the Gospel of Mark that says these signs will accompany those who believe in my name they will cast out demons they will speak in new tongues and they will pick up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them do we take it literally how do we apply it to our lives that's that's kind of the gist of the theme for tonight and that was an issue that tweaked the hearts of Noland and Tracy Spence on their journey and we'll hear a bit about that in a moment now remember you're an important part of this program every week so if you have a question for us give us a call at one eight eight oh two two one nine four six Oh again let me give you that number it's eight eight oh two two one nine four six or you can send us an e-mail at journey home at e wtn dot-com Noland and Tracy welcome to the journey home delight to be here it is a great to be here and I know actually my associate Jim Anderson knows you a lot more than I do because you the three of you were in communication quite a bit over the last couple years right a lot of time on the phone well I guess that was a little bit of the work of the coming home network of doing whatever we could to encourage you on your journey and I thank God that we were able to stand beside you because it wasn't always easy with there was many days it was a struggle I mean humongous drug alright well we're gonna get to that but let's let me begin at the beginning and invite you to talk with the home audience about your early spiritual journey hi I grew up in a wonderful Mennonite home I couldn't I can't say you know enough good things about it was a very godly home my parents are very godly parents and and they taught us to love Jesus with all of our heart soul and mind and to be obedient to the Holy Spirit and just a wonderful godly Christian home I grew up in and and it was a request of our of my parents that the after high school that we attended a year Bible School and they would pay for it and so I went to Bible School and they fulfilled their their promise and paid for the first year and I enjoyed it so much I went back for a second year it was a two-year school and and studied at a Mennonite school up in Canada and then went into the construction business and that eventually led me to Mali Africa with a real gospel missionary Union I helped build a church there and it was there that I really struggled with what God wanted me to do with my life and I ended up coming back and pursuing more schooling and I ended up in rudyard Montana pastoring the church there after graduating from Taylor University Fort Wayne all right now when did you two meet and did you go with him on his mission trip no I grew up in a couple different places but mostly in Morton Illinois and at the age when I was about ten our family became a part of the evangelical Mennonite Church and I basically grew up there and was involved in the quiz team which is memorizing a book of the Bible and quizzing against it it did that a year and a half a church choir taught Sunday School active in the youth group I all I ever wanted to do after high school was go to what was then Fort Wayne Bible College and is now Taylor University Fort Wayne and after delaying a couple of years one year I worked at a an Africa inter Mennonite mission as her secretary for about a year and a half and finally got to college I got there on August 25th and that night our brother and sister floors were doing an activity together and I hopped in the van and asked everybody's name what they were doing and uses wine Nolan's Spence time and Pastoral Ministries major on us alone and but by the end of the evening we had gotten to know each other a little bit and we married on just about nine months later June 1st 1991 and we are now been married 12 years and have five beautiful children and we I so we went and so that's uh he wanted to be a pastor and he was a wonderful shepherding pastor and you know you did you want to be a pastor I even wanted to marry a farmer or a pastor and he grew up on a farm and he became a pastor and when I met his family just one person was shoveling different things right yeah so it was it was good and when we were leaving Fort Wayne course Fort Wayne's a city of about a hundred and forty-four thousand at the time anyway and we left there in 94 after our oldest son Daniel was born and people say what do you want to go out to Montana there's nobody out there but there's a wonderful group of people out there that desperately need ministry just like people in the cities and we lived in a small town and loved it I loved the people there before I asked another question I'm gonna give the phone number again because I misread it at the beginning because there's been phone problems around here and I thought that they're giving me a different phone number because of phone problems I'm going one eight hundred to two one nine four six all just I want to make sure you're calling the right number if you have a question for our topic was practical application of Scripture and I know you both come from a very conservative faithful Bible believing I have a focus denominations talk to the audience about how you understood just what I began with the practical application of the Word of God scripture becomes our our rule of faith and so I grew up in a home where scripture memory was a strong portion of our upbringing my grandpa was had been a pastor all of his life and and he had you know entire books of the Bible put to memory and so he was sort of our our mentor and we we kept truly tried to keep up you know in memorizing Scripture like that too and you just tried to live you know every day is practically as you could in line with Scripture and when I went to school then my professor said I remember one of the main things that he always said was if you don't apply the scripture for your listening audience they won't and so I always tried to use very life illustrations that you saw the week prior that I would experience as my illustrations for preaching so that they could see the connection of how to live it's a biblical way of living out in their their everyday daily life and if you know I mentioned a few of those versus opening if if you in your preaching and your teaching or your your mothering of your children you know if you generally during that period if you came up with a scripture that was kind of more difficult to apply what would the normal way of doing that be from your evangelical church north america perspective you know probably try and hit it from as many angles as you could you know in your study try to not try and lock into maybe one way of applying it trying to apply it in many different directions just you know searching commentaries to try and find other ways of how to apply this verse if it's a difficult role way but then there were some verses where you just you came into a pinch and you know a little bit you know and as a pastor you oftentimes put on the spot because you always felt like you needed to have the the right answer and that was you know at times difficult with some certain verses I always remember there's a verse in Hebrews it says to move away from the elementary teachings of Christ's death and his resurrection well elementary teaching - okay you know that's that's our foundation yeah I can imagine leaving those behind yeah what else is there where is there to go to if that's elementary teaching how do you apply it so it was again a search of Scripture in the commentaries I'm the deeper truths one of the favorite stories I heard about application of scriptures my and my hot legs professor at seminary used to tell a story when he was driving in the south and he radio preacher talking preaching on the scripture and it was an example of where Jesus says to not worry about the leaven of the Pharisees and the radio preacher says the reason you don't worry about the leaven and the Pharisee is because there's 12 of you see again the interpretation of Scripture the understanding of the trying to apply it and then interpreting it sometimes coming up with goofy answers to to completely twist the meaning of it but to make it fit where you're coming from yeah I'm not saying you did that but you know as well as I do that there are people all over that take those verses that I quote at the beginning and run with them in different directions well what got you're there you are even in Jellicle Church North America it's pretty far from the Catholic Church had you ever thought of the Catholic Church growing up there considered well seemed to be I'm sure there were some very good Catholics that I went to school with but they weren't very vocal about their faith and in our are very evangelism centered youth group in that you know if you're a Christian you talk about your faith and you want to bring people to Christ and so yeah I don't know you the Catholics that were the most prominent that I knew were the ones that were serving a party on Friday confession on Saturday Mass on Sunday and do it all again next week and you know I would grew up with being taught and believing that there were a few Christians in the Catholic Church but by and large not not really and you certainly didn't see them fit your model of of Christian little and trying to take the Scriptures not at all and then most of them didn't know the Scriptures at all I mean you know here we we base our lives on it know we sometimes didn't see the contradiction that you know we can we were talking about applying the scriptures the problem with difficult scripture passages is that if we come up with one interpretation somebody else can whip out their Bible and come up with another one and each is equally valid because they're all backed by Scripture well we know that can't work yeah there's a problem in fact let's talk about what opened your heart to the church because that was kind of a jump start to that journey wasn't it it started with with myself in back in the Easter of 97 I began to study because as a pastor's wife and having two children at the time and I had a daughter and I am responsible for teaching my daughter what it means to be a Christian woman now what what does that mean and so I began to study the scriptures that had to do with being a woman and what did God expect of women and one of the verses that piqued my attention was Deuteronomy 22:5 that says that a man is not to put on that which pertains to a woman or a woman what pertains to a man and as I talked with friends and different avenues I borrowed a couple of books from a friend and these books were taking the view that that meant that a woman should always wear a dress never wear pants and they were these were Baptist books having grown up in central Illinois and going to school in Fort Wayne Indiana Knoll and I were very familiar with conservative Mennonite and Amish faiths and my thinking as I studied and as one issue led to another was this was the direction that you know I should go because obviously you know the liberal denomination so to speak are seeing are swinging farther from Christ so if you go the other direction you're closer to Christ some unity they're really applying and living these things and there were a number of issues and that led me to I weren't addresses only for about four years and was convinced that a woman should probably wear head covering all the time because in 1st Corinthians 11 it says that a woman should cover her head when she prays now there's debate does that only in church services is it only what kind of head covering does this mean the hair does it mean something else and as I also pray without ceasing and pray without that see that's where the you where heck of their women that were head covering even to bed at night in case they would wake up at night to pray they would already be prepared and as you read those that the question was so and in discussing sometimes with other women who else didn't seem terribly interested but if I got an audience somewhere and here's someone to listen I and it was the response typically was oh that's just cultural we that's not for today and my question is where does it say it's not for today well Paul there is referring to the problem of what the prostitutes wear you know that the the Christian women being confused with prostitutes nowhere in Scripture does it give that interpretation no wait a minute so how do they know and that began in some ways eventually I sort of felt like the little gerbil on the wheel about it got to be a little interesting what were you doing were you're hearing this study she was going through the study was that she was doing I was aware that she was doing it she was doing it with her friend and it was bringing some difficulties into our marriage because she had decided that she was going to only wear a dress and and that was what she needed to wear and and I told her I said that's that's fine if you were a dress but you're not making our daughter wear a dress all the time either you know and so then there was baseball yeah yeah riding horse or whatever and and so that was creating tension in our marriage and actually even some division in our marriage even though we still had a strong marriage there was there was tension was a causing problem for your pastor at all well it was in a sense because some of the people in the community had picked up that she always wore a dress and and I had ministry goals and it wasn't it wasn't matching into my ministry goals and so there yeah there was Howard there was an internal struggle with myself of how this was affecting my family as well as how is it was it gonna ultimately affect ministry in rural America right right so where did that continue to lead you there you are spinning around like the little gerbil you said well as as I continue that I I was just convinced that the conservative churches conservative Mennonite Durham and Baptist I mean there's there's a number were the direction to go and as I began to study more and my friend as well we came across these differences this this group said that any kind of head covering was okay as long as you were head covering the other group said no no no according to and what that will happen is that you take you know everyone's will know what it says in the Greek and so in the Greek it says this which indicates that which means you have to use that and the more I read books a lot of information on the internet listen to cassette tapes of preachers and such I came across for one thing some of it was very contradictory that the teaching of the head covering is in essence something is shows the submission of a husband of a wife to her husband and his a submission to the church and things of that nature the problem being I heard one man in fact several actually say that a woman would would write to them and say my husband doesn't want me to wear head covering what should I do well this is the command of God and so you wear it well the purpose of the head covering is to show submission to your husband and here you have just done that which is in disobedience to your husband but they're saying well you were being a law of Christ well this seems you know this is contradictory and then the more I studied I found that this group said that you have to wear this kind of clothing in this length of sleeve and you can't have that color in this color and then they would bring scriptures from the Old Testament that and they would back it up and eventually I came to a point one time I mean it and we had talked earlier today about God bringing many threads in your life and tying them into this Court so there's many directions a person could go with us but basically when I began to see that the conservative churches are doing the same thing as the liberal churches but just in the opposite direction the liberal churches are saying you know the Bible it's everybody's interpretation so we can go to all these different directions and the conservatives saying you know the Bible is Word of God and so you have to go with our interpretation of it but every little group has their own interpretation so there's hundreds and and and you say oh that's just non-essentials I don't God says that man looks on our outward appearance God looks on the heart it's true but our outward appearance has an effect on those around us and I believe God cares what 14:15 talks about not being a stumbling block Don yes yeah and our bodies are the temple the Holy Spirit so obviously there's there's merit and what we look like what we choose there's Commandments on modesty but I came to that point where I said wait a minute when they start it was as a sermon on colors they said well he pulled that out of the Old Testament those scriptures have nothing to do with this issue and so then I started back wheeling through all the study I'd done over the lot those last couple of years and I said you know what if I take all of this stuff away and I go only with the scripture no nothing interpretive what does the scripture actually say and the scripture said that men and women are not to wear and look like you know so we're not neutral a man is to look like a man and the woman's to look like a woman and be modest you're pulling from the olders but as far as saying it has to look like this it has to be a cape dress it has to be a certain kind of head covering it wasn't there and then I got to a point where I just said I done to my bedroom one day and I was so overwhelmed by everything that I had been reading and studying and all the the gerbil and the wheel in my head going and I shut the bedroom door and I sat down on my rocking chair and I just began to cry I said Jesus you said that you would never leave us like sheep without a shepherd but you have how am I supposed to know who to listen to who to believe how am I supposed to know who has the correct interpretation and yet my salvation and that of my children depends on me getting at because I teach my children and I said lord I want to know the truth now I know you're the way the truth and the life I don't have any questions about that I don't doubt that a bit it was never an issue of salvation the question is obedience to Christ and but I want to know the truth as much truth is you will let me have on this earth I want to know and in those those moments there was a peace in the midst of my tears and my frustrations and my crying out that just wrapped around me and it was up I I do not know how to describe it but it was like almost somewhere in my mind a voice that just assured me okay that he would tell me don't worry about it it'll come and I became completely calm and I thought you know I don't know what it is I know and I told her I don't care what it is I want to know now I have to say I didn't expect it didn't expect the answer you got no before we jumped there now again this is a little bit farther down the road are you and in tune at all with where she is at this point are you focused on your pastor I was still true tuning her out in many ways focusing still on my pastor it yet we were still we were communicating and there was a a moment about in this time it was after this time where we came to a point where we felt like we were on a threshold and that if we stepped over that threshold it was gonna cost us everything that we maybe lose some friends over it that also once we stepped over that threshold there was no going back and we we didn't know where that where that journey was gonna take us we didn't know we just knew that there was a threshold of in front of us we thought it was still had something to do within the Protestant faith and were you being moved by the question she was raising at this point or just there-there was it created curiosity but no I was so focused on on ministry and and what I was needing to do I was also working at a ready-mix plant to to supplement our in-breath um and I was just so busy and and I didn't take the time really to study the issues I did look at the issues and think about them I drove truck and so I had a lot of time to just sit and think but I was never convicted never moved to to up you know a lot of them and you know that is so true isn't it because you know when we leave seminary and we go out there and get the pastor wheel and running yeah and it doesn't slow down and you know the idea that so many of the men and women we knew in ministry sometimes we wonder well why don't they take time to examine it they don't have the time right they're doing the best thing they can just to get ready for next week's sermon or next week the Bible study it when you've got this marriage in this funeral that jumps up I want to require a two week advance notice for every funeral just drop in in the midst of every plan you have and it takes time to think through issues thinking takes time and you know a lot of students carry directions a lot of people don't have time to think you know and they yeah well yours say you're on the edge of a threshold and we're gonna talk about that but first let's take a break and we'll come back and we'll hear about the direction that you received as you pursued that threshold so we're gonna take a break a break we'll see you in just a bit welcome back our guests this evening are Nolan and Tracy Spence and we're right in the middle we're almost in the middle we've left you hang and and you're on the edge of a threshold so let's start up from there all right you're on your journey of the church but still actually you're in the midst of a dilemma but that doesn't necessarily take you to the Catholic Church obviously especially where you were as an evangelical so what happened well we as we talked earlier about the threads being pulled in in the midst of of all of this I had made a good friend they used to live in our in our town and they had moved to Alaska and Chris and I got to know each other more after she about through email and stuff we have a lot of commonalities and Nolan had worked with her husband John at the ready-mix for a month or so and he wasn't teaching and he came home one day and told me do you know that John believes in eternal hell I said indeed Catholic look at that purgatory thing and you know we were just amazed by this and over the process of discussion and just Chris you know being friends we she's a very close friend and I told Mullin I said you know I I'm gonna ask some questions about what they believe because I've always believed the Catholics you know there's some Christians there but they're certainly not the ones that follow all that merry stuff from the Pope and John and Chris were devout Catholic and they they weren't afraid to discuss their faith which was something that we never found really Catholics who wanted to talk about their faith let alone could really talk about it with any real knowledge that you know we didn't know anything about their faith what we could tell they didn't know that much about their faith but Johnny Chris did and I jumped and ran with this one because this was an opportunity learn what they believe to show them there and bring them to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and I was surprised at the end result well we emailed Chris a couple of questions and and such and I and she would answer me back and then she asked me a couple questions which sort of threw me you know and one of the questions that she asked me one time just kind of stuck in the back of my mind for for several months after and she she wanted to know what happened to the sins that I would commit the after you know if I if I pray and ask forgiveness for a sin in that day but maybe I missed one or I commit a sin and then die and don't get a chance to confess that what happens to that sin and no one had ever posed that question because I've always believed that your your sins past present and future are already forgiven you know they're in the in the blood of Christ it's it's of no and he of course Paul says st. Paul says not to to presume but you know hey if it's already been paid for and I had never thought that through before but her question brought that out and I didn't go there I just after a few conversations I figured out enough that whatever it was they believed they did know Jesus Christ I mean they they were Christians and I was still going with this other business and I just I couldn't go there and and I the other reasons I simply didn't have an answer that question it was in the back of my mind and that bugs me that I I've always been one that has to have an answer my mother said that I could come up with more excuses she knew and this one I was stumped done so we I left that and was back to to studying my conservative things until later in that year when I suffered a miscarriage and there's a story to that but for our sakes I will just say that I had an opportunity Chris the weekend that I found out on Friday I was gonna lose this baby that she was at what's called a Marion conference and it sound like must have something to do with Mary to me and so John had responded to my email and said they would be praying for us and that Chris would be offering up her prayers and sufferings and I thought okay prayers I followed the sufferings don't make any sense and when she came back from her conference and called me and we talked for probably two or three hours on the phone about my experience and about her conference and there was a couple named Larry and Joetta Lewis who had done the conference and he had been he was a medic Assembly of God pastor I believe that he was Methodist but that's been on our program and he became a Catholic I said I became a Catholic I said wow you know well you know I would try to explain the way because of the denominations he'd come from you know they were a little edgy or you know whatever I don't remember now but that caught my curiosity and as we talked about Mary and she explained more about the Marian Conference and these were my questions to her she never pushed it on me I asked her she if she could send me something that would explain some of these things and at the end the conversation we'd talked long enough and then I said you know I if I can't do this around here because of you know a small town but could you uh could you send me a rosary she said well yeah yeah I can do that well it took a month before I ever got it she wanted she wrote me a letter she says I don't ever want you and Nolan to feel that John and I used this time of your sorrow over the miscarriage to push you into the Catholic Church and she told me later as I was studying she says well I have no doubt will become Catholic I said well that's kind of an arrogant thing to say but then the conversation sort of ended with them and we pursue Tracey pursued other other resources Catholic resources to learn the theology of the church I I got on the internet and found Steve ray side almost yeah I'm here again just started gobbling up all this because I couldn't believe what I was finding and when where I began to ran with this one here again I was backing away because I saw that it was gonna cross dilemma division in in ministry as well as now in our marriage because she was finding truths that she was being convicted of that I hadn't studied out myself all the way and so here we were at a dilemma a marriage dilemma again of what do we do and and we talked about this quite a bit and there was a one point then where I told Tracy to stop it stop the study stop the searching and she wrote even she wrote a letter saying I'm just gonna be content to be your wife and be a pastor's wife and but then those books that she had found that she had they were on our shelf and and that truth it was like what what is that what's what did she find that it sort of haunted me and I began to myself unknowing she didn't know it I began to read though some of those books and find truth and it in in December of 2000 I bought a crucifix for Christmas for Tracy and it was then that I revealed to her that I had began reading and studying on my own some of the books and stuff that she had found and and she told me then she says well I have a confession to it back to pray in the rosary and and you know like the rosary it's it's such a misconception that Protestants have the meditation of Christ's life that it's founded the Rosary is just it's a tremendous way of meditating on his life and and so then after that did Christmas of 2000 that our journey began together of study in the faith and and it was so exciting and what we were learning but then there was another swore you know there was two wars going on what we were personally learning and and finding was exciting but yet we couldn't share it with anybody else because it conflict at our theology of the church that I was pastoring and so there was that war that was going on and then like Scott Hahn says the the journey into the faith that seems to go in three ways it's it begins as a mystery story turns into a horror story because you realize what its gonna how it's going to impact your life and then it turns into a love story you just you fall in love with the church and all of its teachings but before you get to that point and and I guess you get you as you study there are many things that are an agreement with what we believed you know we Nolan never preached anything he didn't believe or but what happened is that you come across this these kinds of things and at first your mind just rejects it and then there's just that we had been taught all our lives to pursue the truth and so you have to there has to be an answer and for a while we search to find surely okay we're gonna find what's wrong with this loophole when Nolan Nolan arts agreed to study you know and he said we're gonna study this together it was just such a relief for me but there also came a day when he walked into our bedroom this was before we were really studying together this is when I was maybe a little too confrontational in the way I would present some of the things I was finding he he walked into the bedroom one time and he was just upset which is a very unusual for Nolan and he just said if I say this is true then that means everything I ever bought bullied and been taught is a lie I said no it's not but you come to that point where it's almost like and and when he told me to quit studying several ones before that I was at that point where I you just feel like you've been crushed and you it's not that ever doubt of my salvation but the joy of it was gone because it's being willing to allow everything underneath you get pulled out because finally I started asking a question the Bible alone is my sole role of faith and practice how do I know the interpretation is right and I started asking about those teachings what do you bet where's the basis where as the authority come from where does how do you know that this is right this is the scriptural he says this how do you know to apply it in this way and and to start digging backwards and finding the foundation and when I read Scott and Kimberly Hans book and he had the the kid in his class that asked the question where does the Bible teach that it alone is to be used for faith and practice it was like brilliant lights went on in my head and I why do I feel stupid how do I never see this but it's it's not it's just simply you grow up knowing we watched a video series at one time by RC sprawl and he made the comment that he is Protestant by conviction I'm not Protestant by conviction and Protestant by habit I've never known anything else and those things came together and you start asking those questions and it got scary but then because you knew we knew what it was gonna do and when before Noland began studying I thought Lord what am I gonna do I can't become Catholic without if I become Catholic it will destroy his ministry I mean even if he doesn't my the very sake that I do he's got a caller waiting but before we go there I want to wait a little bit what was the final straw eventually because there's so many things eventually moved from a mental stretching of the mind to I believe this and the last the III resigned the year of 2002 right after the week after Easter and I what I'd done leading up to Good Friday was I had preached on the seven deadly sins and I figured well just this will be easy it'll be a good series leading up to Good Friday and I'll start with up with one of the seven deadly sins that is a you know evidence in my life too much I thought this would be good and well a man Iran a guy they were missile manifested in my life the week prior to preaching on a certain topic that by the time I was getting out to Sunday I was I felt dead already yet I had to preach about this that and and I got to a point you know by the end of that series I had done a study on on sackcloth and ashes cuz I I wanted to just do that I wanted to dress in sackcloth and cover myself in ashes I just got asked God for His mercy to break me of this ran across Bishop Fulton Sheen's quote that that the seven deadly sins are the seven pallbearers of the soul to heaven and and that that in a sense haunted me then because if they show up to heaven how does that work without as a Protestant there is no purgatory yeah there is no final cleansing that you walk through and yet I was in a dilemma that and I in clean conscience could not be in the pulpit and so and then we'd we'd studied all the other issues the baptism of our children we'd studied the issues of Mary and and the authority of the church and all these other issues I just couldn't I couldn't in clean conscience remain there and so I resigned the church and rudyard was extremely gracious to us and let us work out a couple weeks there before we we moved and then we came into the church on father a year ago Father's Day so kids were baptized that same day and we agreed that we believed in the Apostles Creed well great let me go this first phone call and then come back to this your question about your journey hello this is Brian from Della or what's your question for us tonight yeah quick question for you guys yeah actually I used to be Catholic yeah and I convert it over to being a Baptist about two years ago and you know I've learned a lot within that two-year period my question really comes down to interpretation of the scripture you know and I just turned the show real quick so I probably missed it but basically my understanding and for reading the word is that when the baptism of the Holy Spirit comes upon you you become a believer and through being in the word daily and praying to God to you to reveal to you what he should have revealed to you yes my question is why not allow that interpretation to a to occur as opposed to going to a specific church body to interpret that work for you and it's all throughout the the new New Testament Paul writes about it many times as far as the Holy Spirit and the interpretation of Scripture and like I said I missed the beginning of the show but I you know kind of questions out there all right thank you Brian and so in other words go ahead I think there is a when you read scripture you need to be personally applying it to your life and I don't disagree with that at all I'm but there is certain passages that do need defining by an outside source and that needs to be done by by the church and what happens is that and as a as a Protestant this gentleman is Catholic was Catholic excuse me there's no Baptist but in a sense what what you have is you have a scripture passage that perhaps there's disagreement on and so everybody rips out their Bibles and you all come up with different interpretations so how do you know whose interpretation is correct there is no one to say this is the interpretation and interestingly I think if and I'm sorry I don't have the verses right on the top of my head here but the Holy Spirit was given specifically to the Apostles some of these ministries of interpretation were not given to the entire Christian body they were given to the Apostles and their successors to be able to pass it on and you cannot have I don't know how many Protestant denominations there are now thirty thousand of them are so good but prop from a Protestant source from a Protestant source thirty thousand denominations there's only one Holy Spirit and we know he is God and he is perfect and he is always right so if there aren't saying different things then somebody's wrong how do you know who it is and when I came to that point I would look back at it now and say that's the point where I decided I was tired of trying to be my own Pope you know the verse that you referred to comes from though that section in John verses 14 chapters 14 15 and 16 Jesus is in the upper room the night of the Last Supper and literally who was he talking to the 12 as well it's 12 and he's telling them that he will send the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth that's literally what's happening there now when we go from interpretation and asked to what extent does his words apply to only the twelve or to every Christian or to every person again now we're into interpretation and we have all these different denominations that will apply that verse either very limited or to a full extent and the idea that every one of us has that complete gift of the Holy Spirit I mean I know Brian is 100% sincere I could tell by the way he was saying that but I would encourage Brian to sit back and just think of a few verses that you as a Baptist disagree about with okay as a Baptist you believe in believers baptism Presbyterians baptize infants Lutheran's baptize infants Salvation Army don't even baptize all believe in the authority of Scripture now one could say well I I'm hearing the scripture more or I believe in the Bible more but in some sense the witnesses to the problem of that is is that there isn't just one Baptist denomination there's a mess of it yeah because they can't agree on the interpretation of that that's why I thank God Jesus planted a church that should never discourage us though from continuing to read scripture so I mean forget about God and so we can't be afraid to read scripture either because I mean that's how we grow in our faith but we read it with the guidance of the of the church and you know the church has not defined each and every verse the church allows much freedom but there are you know if you go by Bible only you cannot even prove monogamous Manama gonnago how can you sell the word that it was monogamous marriage you cannot prove that by scripture alone and those groups that have polygamy go back to Abraham it's right that's right that's right and and so to take Bible alone and then what do you what do you do with those people in the first centuries of the church who didn't have the scriptures and someone also saying well the verse and in Timnath first Timothy says that all Scripture is god-breathed and useful all Scripture is useful doesn't say only and by the way Timothy was only referring to the Old Testament through so it's so many issues that I'd never thought of and yet as we as I studied the pieces of the puzzle came together so beautifully things I thought that we're not biblical are clearly in Scripture i but you have to be willing to see it jesus said over and over he who has ears let him hear and the good old Saint Jerome said ignorant of Scripture is ignorant of Christ yes we as Catholics are encouraged to read it daily the daily office is full of Scripture the mass is overflowing with Scripture we have another caller Sarina from Indiana what's your question for us tonight I wanted to ask I was raised Jehovah's Witness and I just came into the church at the Easter Vigil welcome home oh thank you and it's been a long journey and I'm very glad to be here but send us your story if you have that much bandwidth anyway one of the things I'm having difficulty with that for a long time I mean I really believed when I was taught growing up I had no reason not to you know that's what my parents taught me so it had to be true and then I came to started having questions and researching and having doubts the way you did and for a while I decided I would continue to go and participate out of respect you know for my parents but there came a point where as you said no one like with my conscience I could no longer do that so you know now I Here I am I'm in the Catholic Church I've told my aunt my parents don't know I haven't gotten up in they're 40 years old but it's the laws every everything I grew up with the way we did things our little traditions I was you know talking my dad tonight about things that he was mentioning some things that I know I can't participate in any more there's just a real awesome even though I'm thrilled with finally getting to the truth and I feel like I really do have the fullness of the face down and it's like a 40 but of 18 you know just starting out all on my own it's great but it's just a real at the same time I can be so happy I have this real feeling of loss over what in my life used to be and how I'm kind of on the outside looking in now with the family and I just wondered how you guys are dealing with that alright great questions hang in there hang in there scripture says I've been crucified with Christ and yeah it's it's being crucified with Christ and and in order for us to live we sometimes have to die and the same struggle is in my is in our homes - oh there's division there's heartache there's hurt my mom said if this is of God then why are you causing so much pain in our family and so it's been it's been a struggle and in fact it's in terms of struggle does it look back about that you know just the struggle you you have as an X pasture now what about that breathe yeah it's you know it's everyday you I think about Rudyard and I think about the people there and I pray about them and I think the ministry that I could have had if I'm so if I was still there and yet I'm not there and so you you wrestle with that and I have a brother that's a wonderful pastor I've got an uncle that's a pastor and and I come from a whole family full of church working people and yet now we don't talk about faith issues we talk but you know we we free to talk about everything else but we avoid the the heart issues of life we tend to avoid talking about now and then that's grieves because you really want to talk about it yeah I mean that's Wow and in first serene I Christmas was hard this year it was it was hard we had the opportunity to go back to see Nolan's parents and he and I went to Christmas Mass our first Christmas Mass it was beautiful in his hometown and then we met his dad and over at his church to go to to go to church Nolan's mom's in a wheelchair so she's not able to get out but his dad you know we didn't want him going to church alone but they had Communion and it was it was God's unique arranging that I sat between Noland and dad because we aren't able to receive Communion anymore as a family and and so it it made it easier for Nolan to pass that by not having to sit next to his dad and we don't you don't want to hurt your parents who is a Serena said she hasn't told her parents yet you know we avoided that as you don't want to hurt those people you love so much and yet jesus said that these kinds of things would happen it's not that we don't believe that our families are a Christian we know they are but fortunately some of them think that we're not and eventually we were dealing with issues of eternity yeah so we had to make up the choice either yeah we're with these people here on earth and they're our family but eternity is still out there and we have to make eternal choices and we're accountable for the knowledge that we have right what's cobble the truth and teaching it to our children so what would you say about how in becoming Catholic has it drawn you closer to your Lord Jesus you know for myself ending my Protestant ministry preaching on the seven deadly sins and seeing what I thought wasn't evident in my life how evident they were has really I've spent the year really searching out Who am I as a pastor you sometimes put on this this facade of everything's right and perfect in your life and it's not always that way and so I've really drawn closer to God through discovery and being honest with myself more of who I am and and I've read the the Catechism and the word that repeatedly came out in there was the faithful the faithful the faithful and so I've tried to continue trying to do my best to be faithful it's been what a great pleasure to have you both on time flys here we are towards the end thank you very much for joining us in the journey or have enough I know the folks at home really enjoyed your testimony their powerful witness to Christ thank you for joining us and the encouragement here is to trust the church as it helps us understand God's work god bless I'll see you next

Channel: EWTN

Views: 22,520

Rating: 4.8114476 out of 5

Keywords: Catholic, EWTN, Christian, television, Evangelicalism (Religion), Pastor, Ministry

Id: gYjWt3ujTI8

Length: 55min 59sec (3359 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 13 2014