The Journey Home - NIKKI AND JASON WORKMASTER - 2014-02-10 - Former Baptist & Evangelical

[Music] [Music] good evening and welcome to the journey home I'm Marcus Grodi your host for this program in which EWTN gives me this wonderful opportunity to introduce two young men and women who because of their love for our Lord Jesus Christ found out surprisingly if their hearts and minds were open to the beauty of the church and usually that wasn't their plan often that was the last thing they ever wanted and and on this program I invite them to the start the beginning and help us hear how the Lord has led their lives you usually have one guest but very often I have the great privilege of inviting especially a husband and wife couple who both came in together and so that's our it's our privilege tonight Jason and Nicky work Master welcome to the journey home thank you welcome well it's really good to have you here and you've come from the DC area out of the inside-the-beltway to out to the real world but welcome to journey home and what I like to do especially with two of you get out of the way as soon as possible and then fight you to start way back at the beginning to give us a glimpse of your spiritual journey sure it's great to be here we're thrilled we watched the journey home quite a bit on our journey to the church and it's it's just a great privilege and I grew up in Florida I was actually born in Ohio but moved to Florida was quite young and I was very blessed to have devoted Christian parents we always went to church every week and but I my background is a bit of an evangelical nut I call myself I was in Methodist a Methodist Church when I was born when go to Florida we were in Assembly of God Church president because your parents themselves did not have a tradition that they hung their hats on or my mom had been raised primarily in the instrumental Churches of Christ and my dad had been raised Methodist and they were in the Methodist Church one or and I was born and then we moved to floor so I consider myself broadly evangelical so in assembly a god Church at the at the same time I went to a private Christian school and that was Baptist so we were attending Assembly of God was going to abaft a school and you know got a lot of Bible memorization which was fantastic I mean that stood me in good stead in my whole life I still remember those passages but you know looking back on it now from where I am today you know it does strike me that you know a lot of the texts we memorize were the you know kind of the hit parade of anti-catholic proof test but you know Bible you know was very important and it is interesting especially lifelong Catholics that are listening to you might have a hard time piecing together the fact that you would have all these different evangelical backgrounds in your life as if it's a normal thing yeah I mean Assembly of God Baptists or some things that are radically different in the system's yes it's from Methodist in there and then back you know yes and we were in the Presbyterian Church United States USA for a while as well and and when I by the time I got to high school we were in a instrumental Church of Christ and you know one of the things that did strike me you know at a very young age was that meaning that there are Church of crisis that don't allow instrument that is correct that's what we were the ones that had the piano in the sanctuary but you know only one thing that struck me very early on when I was a kid just you know being and I never I never accepted really the notion of once saved always saved eternal security even though I was in Baptist schools so that you know there would be constant you know fighting well you know over that topic you know even in the classroom and you know I was hearing different things from from different people that I respected and just trying to figure out you know is this is this possibly how Christ could have wanted us to go through life you know struggling debating these things and never really having any kind of conclusion so you would interesting to say that well the things that would tie all those different churches together especially for a young man at least would be Scripture yes the love for scripture love for Jesus Christ but at least under the surface would be a subtle anti-catholicism it would not always be overtly there correct but it really is presumed that the one thing we can all say about all of us different groups that we need Catholic that is correct and that would be true at all though yes absolutely absolutely so did you know this this girl we met we met in high school in Florida so I'm so you know when I met Nikki I was kind of this mixed bag of all these different things but mix mix backgrounds a little different yeah I thought he was weird because my story so much more simple I just I grew up in a Baptist Church I was dedicated as a baby I grew up going to Sunday school had great Sunday school teachers and you know heard all the Bible stories maybe the Bible learn the Bible versus youth group Sunday night service service projects Vacation Bible School Awana you know all these things that kind of immerse you in the Bible and just knowing the Bible so I was a pretty earnest little Christian I prayed a lot I was very conscientious and I definitely wanted to know the truth but one thing that is funny looking back is after I was baptized I was about eight or nine I think when I was baptized so I was able to take communion after that and once I figured out that communion was symbolic I was very disappointed and it's just so strange because I didn't know any better yeah so I would just I would pretend that it was really the body of Christ but from hearing the Scriptures hearing what the pastor said you just picked up naturally that the words of Christ meant that it was really him I took it literally why not right exactly so I was definitely always thinking kind of wondering I didn't accept everything that I was taught I mean it was kind of you know what Jason was saying about the once saved always saved doctrine you know I wondered about that too because so often the explanation would be well maybe they weren't saved you know if someone kind of backslides maybe they weren't saved after all so I thought well so you're not saved unless you're saved you know how does that work so I just have a lot of questions throughout my young faith yeah one of the most common cat are explanations for the fallen away once saved always saved person is well as it says in Romans that if you confess with your lips that Jesus Lord and believe in your heart that God raised from the dead you'll be saved so he must have confessed it but he didn't really believe it so there's this yes this inner private invisible proof of something that you could never do how do you know right you can never know so there you are yeah yeah I honestly blink that believe that's often the pastors that have the biggest problem with the once saved always saved although they may not let the public know it because the pastors know the people in the congregation they know people that leave where the corrugation may not always see it so there you are the same town then yep just outside of Orlando yep I had moved from the Chicago area when I was fifteen so then we met and we got married at the end of college so were you both active in the faith during college oh yes yes yes yes and went to the University of Florida I was very active in campus ministry there we had a wonderful campus ministers oh that was instrumental Church of Christ so I'd be at the instrumental Church of Christ when I was in college on the weekend but when I go home to back to Orlando we go to the Baptist Church and the Baptist Church that we were with Nicky and I were married in was very Calvinist so you know I'm up in I'm up in Gainesville and our my campus mister was very non Calvinist so I'd go home hear the Calvinists sermon in the morning and go back it might talk with it and was very interesting because our campus minister was fabulous guiity and he had a he taught us typology and so reading the Old Testament typologically you know I look back on that now I'm seeing Christ you know from the very beginning you know seeing Christ in the story of Joseph seeing Christ in the story of David seen you know the whole in the new test all reading the Old Testament as the story of Christ and very very calm I mean it was very and you know really I just recently this is kind of skipping ahead but I recently read and they can I both did Scott Hans hail holy Queen yeah and that's you know being you know hearing that in college that typological approached or seen Jesus well of course Mary's in the Old Testament too you know it is so Catholic and for the audience who maybe are familiar with the typological idea I mean converts like it's got Han and and Steve Ray particularly that's what brought them to start thinking about the church as the continuity of the Old Testament people of God was this typology the connection and as Pope Benedictus said the theology of continuity not of a break no it's this continuity that's a very Catholic and a lot of these Protestant groups that have bought it not bought into but that's important part of their theology don't realize how Catholic things which shows our unity I mean there is the unity through our baptisms that's that connect us to our brothers and sisters use the same book called the Bible yes right so there you are so we've got you up to get married is there anything else that we need to pick up on before you're married that's important to the journey why are we in good shape I think the only other thing I'd throw in there just right around the time we were getting married and we were at you aft together I can't read this before after we were married but there was a Ravi Zacharias who's a protestant apologist came to town and we want to hear him and he had you know big crowds people and spoke but during the course of his talks he mentioned this guy named GK Chesterton and this is the first time I'd ever heard that name you know so he'll he'll he'll come back in the story later but that was the first time I heard of GK Chesterton you know it is sad that some of these great Catholic writers like GK Chesterton and Heller Belloc and others even even Blessed Cardinal Newman because they're Catholic are extricated from literature so even if you're an English major you may not ever hear about these great writers because they're kind or they had the audacity to convert to the Gallagher you know there could extricate it from that okay so you get the seed of G K Chesterton what happens at that so we're young and married very young and I I think early on in our marriage I don't know how he stumbled across the information that chemical birth control is can act as an abortifacient so did all your different evangelical backgrounds draw you already to a pro-life position would you say definitely definitely in terms of saying that abortion was wrong yes yes so we somehow came across this information and that kind of led us to start thinking just about the ethics of birth control in general and I know Jason talked to a few different people that we trusted you know and there was never really a good resolution you can talk to you more about that and we struggled with that that issue for years just trying because it I think we both felt that there's got to be a single right answer to this question this is this goes to the heart of marriage this seems much too important you know I believe in a good and loving God and I just could not I had difficulty believing that a good and loving God would not give us a clear answer to this question that to us it was just obvious there had to be one you know our guests tonight are are Jason and Nikki work mastered it's interesting that a side subject here is you're demonstrating you're expressing the fact that Sola scriptura doesn't work right there no I mean all those different traditions you're talking about believe in the Bible as a soul foundation of truth and he was struck with a very important issue you even said you consulted a couple people you trusted right people who had been to seminary you know people that we you know we trusted definitely their scholarship so so that's how you determine what's true in the world you're in you've got the Bible but if I can't figure out there I've got to find somebody somewhere I can try yep and no no no young couple wants to hear the answer no birth control is wrong so it's but you just when you don't get a satisfactory answer you know so we were kind of just searching for years after that I mean it was always kind of a question and an ethical struggle you know it just didn't seem right to have children whenever it was convenient or you know it just seemed like there was more to it than that there are churches that are divided because one group says you can use instruments and the other one says you can't use instruments but on the issue of birth control no absolutely I thought their own absolutely it's very you know and then we you know it was we were researching that issue you know we I think write about that kind of was we were doing that I was started to teach adult Sunday School and the church that we were attending and I did a study on the Canon and you know writers were thinking about the kids issue the Canon of Scripture the Canon of Scripture and where did these books come from because as a Protestant you don't really delve I never did at least you know I never heard a sermon on that I never heard a lesson on that you know we just didn't talk about it which is both of you assumed from childhood that this was the this was the Holy inspired infallible book of God it fell from the sky yeah yeah I mean if the King James is good enough for Jesus that's right that is absolutely right we just took it as a given and you know and I started I taught a series on that and I started looking like you you can't have the Bible without the church in the church gave us the Bible and in order to trust the Bible you have to trust the church that gave it to us you know that it predates the Bible you know and it just it just never it never occurred to me Jesus never wrote a word that we have recorded at least now when you did that Bible study though I mean was the Catholic Church but oh no I wasn't on I know you said the church it was just I understood that there was this thing that church and you know that pop the word popped up in the New Testament you know as something and so that that said I had a right but as you know you studied the history it did come from this instance body and then the question was does was is that still around right well then I think at that point you had also gotten deep into Chester - you forgot that oh very important yeah yeah yeah by that by at first I first picked up Orthodoxy when I was in law school in the late nineties and it just best put it it just blew those you know blew the doors off of my faith because you know I read a faith in orthodoxy that was a lot like mine but it wasn't mine yeah you know and and what I kept and I must I probably read that book I probably read it 10 times over the course the next decade just struggling with it because you know I had read you know I think you were looking hard for the phrase instrumental bad at what I kept and we were big we were big Rich Mullins this does relate to testing with big Rich Mullins fans and I remembered a line in Rich Mullins had a song called Creed and he said I did not make it no it is making me his very truth of God not the invention of any man oh I had no idea until I write he got that from Chesterton you know when I read Chester and said you know I want to tell you about the philosophy in which I've come to believe I cannot call it my philosophy because I did not make it God and humanity made it and it made me and I knew I could not say that about my faith I knew at the end of the day I had made my face was did you try and eat Gigi Chesterton he kept talking about him I just at that point no I listened to what he had to say and I wasn't against it but I just he's kind of an Anglophile so I thought who is this English person you've latched on to now but then he did a book study with our Sunday School class and he everyone read orthodoxy Anna I read it nice and okay I can understand why I like this book so much it's wonderful are you just seeing a GK Chesterton as a man who had this Christian conversion are you seeing at that point his Catholicism I'm seeing that it's not it's not Protestant I'm seeing that it's not it's not Anglican it's not Baptist it is something whole it is wholly other because the faith to him is outside of himself and for every you know though and I can't remember if it was Cardinal Blessed Cardinal Newman or or most me he was tested himself said you know the high Church Anglican does not become a Catholic when he realizes he disagrees with the low Church Anglican he becomes a Catholic when he realizes he agrees with a low Church Anglican you know that all the thing that binds all the processes together you know is you know it really comes down to it's the individual who's going to just going to decide disputed questions of scriptural interpretation and what the faith is and Catholicism has all the other yeah yeah yeah I think it was Newman who in his study of the early church when he looked at the battles in over heresy that he realized in every case he would end up on the wrong side not that he agreed with the heresy but with the process to come up with their position it was a Sola scriptura it was not the authority of the church and so he'd end up on that is it there's some wrong with this picture yeah so next steps then I mean here you are at least you're reading a little bit over I always feel funny when we promote Chesterton and of course the Aquos doesn't he definitely all the time of ours and God bless him and we love Chesterton but Chester Nate for everybody just like aller Bella isn't for everybody absolutely absolutely it's I came at it from a similar but different way I started seminary in 2006 so you know it was a great little Baptist Seminary we did historical theology we didn't have maduk theology so is it because you just I mean in certain traditions women of course can go for pastor it was that we were no absolutely so you're in law school and she's he's he's a lawyer by now um I had no interest in any kind of pastoral it was more of an academic thing so we're studying historical theology were reading you know through the patristic times we're reading through medieval theology Reformation theology modern theology the lens of a Baptist no it really wasn't it was very neutral and we were reading a lot of just the sources with very little help so it just reading you know through Aquinas and you know the early Justin Martyr Ignatius of Antioch this was the same thing with Chesterton their faith was not my faith it was very different from my faith and it was very attractive I mean the theology was there but there was also a practice of the theology and there was a path to sanctity that was very foreign to me I think that from a Baptist standpoint theology was kind of it's kind of a hobby you know theology isn't for everyone but the with the father's you know the church fathers and throughout history theology and practice went together so yeah something it's what she's studying the theology and you're a practicing lawyer yeah yes at that point were you comfortable with your faith and the practice of law yeah that's a great question because when uh when I went to law school I I actually went to Regent University which is the law school that Pat Robertson started yeah I was very interested in the relationship between the the faith and my law career and there is of course I mean you know the the the the - there - for the profession of you know our lawyers they are kind of like secular there are secular priests you know people turn to lawyers I think a lot of time way they think of it because just that originally the doctors the teachers and the lawyers were all priests yes in its it's also partially because of the Reformation that these things were broken up and so you have the professional teacher the professional doctor the professional lawyer apart from a priest and when I could never reconcile as a lawyer was that I'm trained as a lawyer to interpret authoritative texts that's a lot of what I do it's not everything I do counseling people that kind of stuff as well you know but interpreting authoritative text is something that lawyers do and so I would learn the canons of construction of illegal texts and it just it bothered me that ok I'm applying this much analysis to something when you're compared to the Bible as trivial as the US Constitution you know in comparison the Bible that's trivial I love America I believe in the Constitution but when I turn to the BIOS be able to have that same level of rigor as I do in my law practice and that's not what I felt that's not how I felt being a Protestant yeah yeah although I would say that I remember from my own evangelical background when I thought about myself for a while going into medical ethics my presumption was that my textbook for doing medical ethics what's the Bible in other words anything else I would study would have to match the scriptures because the I what saw that as the infallible foundation for what is true and I'm assuming that there are fundamentalist Christian lawyers but that's the way they approach law yes yes yes that that is that is very that is very true and I've actually have a friend from from high school who's who was a Catholic then he was born Catholic and took a detour and evangelical has come back to the churches and and we actually talked about this this subject some is the you know the fundamentalist approach to things like constitutional law is not Catholic and we I do believe our society suffers a bit from from that because we live in a pervasive and I don't think I recognized this until we were approaching the church we live in a very pervasively Protestant country yeah and the way some approach the Constitution is as if it's a cannon that's dropped from heaven yeah wait a second here you know that there's some value to that but hyper conservatism when it comes to that is like hyper fundamental with the Bob solutely absolutely very very semana and so what is the interpretive Authority yes to interpret the word whether it's the Bible or the Constitution right in my legal in my in my legal practice I've gotten to the point where I was comfortable that we need the Supreme Court so if I'm comfortable with the fact that we need the Supreme Court don't we need a similar thing so is she talking to you're trying you're trying to push Chesterton under we were definitely and we had probably a period of two or three years where we were just talking constantly about theology and you know I was feeding him some of my seminary stuff for his Sunday School lessons and he's telling me about Chesterton and we're reading and talking and bouncing all these ideas off of each other so I think we were really kind of at that point on a road but we didn't know yet thinking Catholic well you was it in your mind to think well should we be Presbyterian ever no I mean I know a lot of folks you know kind of do do that journey from a more traditional Lane evangelicalism like Baptist through Anglicanism - that wasn't us we stayed and we're in the same Baptist congregation for 10 years years you know all through this time we were I deserve I figured if you're gonna be Protestant you should be Baptist I mean it's kind of like the extreme almost the extreme end of Protestantism it's you know priesthood of the believer you know there's absolutely no authority but at least I can believe you know whatever I want so hopefully I'm right about Asian yes yeah has Authority right and the individual Christian given the Holy Spirit it says the first time you've got you got the anointing who nee who needs to teach anything you take that literally oh I just got me in the Bible well there's so much I agreed with in Catholic theology though I mean studying you know going through historical theology I started to really agree with a lot of you know these Catholic theologians and I think Jase and I both kind of got to a point where we thought we could kind of co-opted some of these beliefs like we should just it's okay to be Baptist didn't because as a Baptist you kind of have that freedom you know you're the one thing you can counter there's a lot of things that I could say here but I do one thing that encountered both an early church fathers Aquinas as well as GK Chesterton is that baptism is important yes it's not merely an affirmation yes of what we believe but that it is a foundational entrance into the family of God yes I mean did that come up at all during that time I think at that point it was very difficult the ordinances in the Baptist Church because you know you have baptism and communion and we talked a lot about how it well it's just a symbol well if it's just a symbol why do it and it really you know as communion had kind of lost a lot of meaning for me as a child I was starting to wonder why was this so important in the early church and now it's just a symbol we do it quarterly or once a month or however often we did communion and I missed going to communion a lot because I was volunteering in the nursery at church and it just didn't matter to me yeah yeah let's take a break our guests are Jason and Nicky work master former evangelical former Baptists now who've been studying theology and law and they're both the sharing each other's we're leaving at that stage in let's come back [Music] [Music] [Music] welcome back to the journey home our guests are Jason and Nikki work master and I've paused them when you're both in the midst of you're trying to show up chesterton down her and they're trying to show the early church fathers it's going back and forth so how does it progressed from there well I think we're probably the story of this about late 2006 it was shortly after Nikki had started seminary and and I'm trying to remember the exact reason we did this there was there was some reason but Labor Day weekend of 2006 we went to visit the Basilica in Washington in DC and we had never been there we'd never been to it I don't I don't know if I'd I've maybe been in a Catholic Church once before in my life so we went to the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception and we were just blown away just it was we were blown away and I'll never forget going to the to the Basilica and above the haa above the altar is this image of Christ as the king and I had never seen an image of Christ like that and it just left a you know a mark on me of Christ is really going to return Christ really is the king and you know life is in some ways too short to mess around with this stuff forever but I mean it it it struck me and then at the same time we went to the John Paul to Center and he must have been we it was doing a little field trip with the kids yeah yeah so by this point we had three children I'm sorry we skipped our children three children - point just magically yes we had a boy and two girls at this point and well we were but we still can struggling with the issue of artificial contraception and they had some literature at the Jaypee - center the very next day I went there's a Catholic Information Center in DC right down the street from my office and I went and purchased theology of the body the next day so we started then we started reading JP twos Blessed John Paul the second theology of the body which really you know helped us reach a conclusion on the on the issue which so thankful what your your common experience in the Basilica I mean this is Catholicism when you see that Basilica there aren't too many pictures like that in these instrumental Turkey yeah or even the Baptist Church so you're you're surrounded lady by kneelers and yes icons and statues and smells and bowels them and all of instead I mean did that did did it drive you back at all or did it pull you yeah I think it will I think it pulled us in yeah well by this time you're homeschooling so you're talking about so I was homeschooling our oldest to that year they were in 3rd and 1st grade and our son I don't this was totally god I don't know why this happened I was at the library just picking up some books for the kids I saw a book on Saints and I thought he would love this this this would be right up his alley so I checked it out he devoured it and then I got I don't know two or three more books on Saints which is a very unbaptized but I just thought that it would be good for him to read about some heroes of the faith he just completely latched on to the Saints and he started creating this little book of saints that he Illustrated he'd draw a little picture of the saint and say what they were the patron of and I think over the course of two or three years he fighted 70 80 pages yes 70 80 Saints so our little baptist son created a book on and so sometimes some time later this was a maybe a couple years later but we were we were driving up to gettysburg we like to go to Galesburg Pennsylvania and not too far from where we live and we have to drive right through Emmitsburg and which is where the shrine of st. Elizabeth Ann Seton is and so we drive past the little marker of the sign and Charlie was like we got to stop so you know worst again we're still we're still Baptist but weird you know Charlie said they want to go see this so we we're there we are going through the shrine of st. Elizabeth Ann Seton and our son you know we get out of the car and we're Charlie saying so you know she was married oh no she couldn't been married she was you know she was a she the sisters yeah of course he was right he knew all about it our ten-year-old son is telling us no his Baptist parents all about Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton are you your son just seeing these as Christians heroes or was he ahead of you I don't know I think they were definitely his friends I don't know how sure he processed that but he believed what he read and he he believed how real they were I'm not sure I don't know what Catholic meant to him at that point I mean the church we'd been going to wasn't real anti-catholic or anything so I don't think he was getting any negative message guessing you didn't you know the indoctrinates a wrong word to use but you know program them in an anti-catholic group right no we really didn't so there wasn't any of that no so wasn't brought up so he just naturally saw these good Christian men and widow that inspired him and he wanted to emulate they would like to Center his friends in the face yes yes yes so that that so that that was going on at this time and then in the end of 2006 was our tenth anniversary and we went to Rome for our tenth anniversary at the end of 2006 and we were about Rayleigh didn't choose Geneva we're coming No so we were about ready to head out to go to Rome and a friend of mine at work my role my role I don't know I think that these were only with Audrey Hepburn I I think God was just putting these little things in our lives so you're preparing a very good around the guy that I work with at my office gives gives me a copy of Rome sweet home by Scott so I read it on the airplane over and then I think Mickey read it on the airplane ride back you know in between of course we're in Rome and we did the scoby tour under st. peter's and at least for me it was it was just it was mind-blowing and and we got done with that too I like but yes that st. Peter that the this this is where he came I bought it I bought everything I heard and we went to you know we went to all the churches did an extensive tour of churches yeah that was a big part of our visit and we were very moved but I still don't think we understood completely but it we we saw that was something other it was definitely outside of us it was foreign to us but it was very attractive yeah I think at that point but still we still weren't quite still weren't quite there did you look for the closest Baptist Church I well you know I don't think we went to church don't forget Church when you're on vacation yeah so we that that I mean that was that left you know that left a big mark being there and you know that was I was the end of 2006 and I would see I'm I know cuz the time I would take to me but our lady had to be jumping out at you during this whole thing was that it did that come as a conversation at all it did it did actually when I read Rome sweet home I said to Jason I I can buy all of this the thing about the Immaculate Conception I just don't get it like I can't wrap my mind around it I wasn't repulsed or you know I didn't close the book on it but I just said I just don't get it I don't understand why it's not in the Bible so why why is it necessary right right and when you grow up not hearing about Mary at all it's all I mean the Catholic you know point of view is just totally foreign I mean you just it's it's never it doesn't even come up in conversation as a Baptist except at Christmastime because I'm saying you walk into the Vatican and see the piata mm-hmm mean that certainly as a as a non Catholic Christian you can you should there's no excuse not to have great love and honor for the mother of our Lord Jesus absolutely not but still a Catholic devotion and recognition of her place in Salvation history you can't avoid that right right and I think that I think for both of us probably that was one of the last major hurdles and I think for a lot of Protestant conference it is and you know that that that really so that we continue to you know read a lot over the next several years we had finally reached as we mentioned earlier you know kind of conclusion on the artificial contraception issue so we welcome to our fourth child in 2009 I've named her Katherine and it's still even in 2009 you know we I think we thought we could still you know remain Baptist have a lot of Catholic theology but relate to the your you know the question about the the Blessed Mother in 2010 we conceived our fifth child and we lost her to miscarriage in June of 2010 and I think for both of us was at your first loss of mystery this this was our this this was our first miscarriage and I think for me at least well for both of us that was kind of the end for prostitute ISM for us because it was there was our process and friends were wonderful caring for us and team you know they were wonderful the theology wasn't there to help us Jesus wasn't there to help us in the Protestant church and you know with the world it wasn't that Jesus wasn't them you know you clarify which are not the Eucharist I mean you know that Jesus the real presence of Christ was not there in our church services to certain extent one way to say it is there's just not a file folder in the prize in theology I want to do with the the miscarriage net trial that's how do you understand this human being yes and where are they in relationship to God's mercy in his love yes it is difficult because it's not even clear within Baptist there are so many Baptist theologies you can't save Baptist theology Baptist theologies whether our baby was even a person or not and so what what do you do with that even as it as a Baptist you're still often a minority in the pro-life position yes yes yes because good believing Bible believing men and women who love our Lord Jesus yes right don't get the issue on an abortion correct because of that issue there's no theology that defines understanding of the human person yeah mate you did mention that you had read a theology of the body yes conclusion we had we had reached I mean by 2000 and so we've gotten picked up the book in 2006 by 2008 we reached our conclusion where we believe that that we we study theology body we picked up some of Christopher West's materials as well we were convinced about the Catholic position you know openness to life you know the total gift of the one spouse to the other you know I thought about it for myself at least you know Jesus gave everything for his church do you just gave everything you know it went st. when Saint Paul tells us you know I'm speaking of Christ in the church you know talking about husband loved your wife life love your husband I'm speaking of Christ in the truth I want all of Jesus and so the artificial contraception mindset is I will only I love you to a point that was how that's what I took from from theology the body and so we were convinced you know that's what led to our fourth child and you know and then working through the the miscarriage is one thing I struggled with was you know a sense of well God you you know you convinced us here what you know and and what helped me spend a particular on Mary was just knowing that our our baby this we lost a baby in in 2010 we lost two more at the end of 2010 and then another in 2011 to miscarriage and just knowing that our babies have a mother that a mother in heaven finally resolved any any issues I had with with Mary and she's been a great comfort through you know through that was a great comfort through that oh hi how are you getting through these oh it was horrible but I think at that point we had both kind of concluded like I think we need to come into the Catholic Church and I felt that God was very much with us leading us over so many years to reach that conclusion and I think that we had the comfort that since he was leading us through that process he was also with us in the losses I mean that's all I could really think I mean I had no doubt that he was with us but it was it was terrible because you know on one hand were looking toward you know coming into the church we're dealing with the losses and we're also dealing with leaving our church family which was a huge loss I mean we'd been at that particular church for about ten years and that was our family so it was kind of like many many losses at one time but because your move on the one hand is a is a positive statement but also can be interpreted as a negative absolutely to all those folks oh absolutely I think people thought at that point we had just lost it and for us we very much saw it as a move towards sanity that's how I saw it I know that's how you saw it so it was terrible I mean it's hard to kind of hold it together right now but we knew that God was with us and that he was leading us through this whole thing you mentioned early on that you you just knew that our Lord's words were serious about the real presence than you were shocked to find out they were symbolic the Eucharist was at a particular draw for you out of the church yes definitely oh yes yes yes I mean we we so in yes I mean we started attending Mass 20 in 2010 I started our I started our CA a little couple months before before Nicky did and you know just being able to do just just even before we were able to receive the Eucharist you know just you know walking and just walking into the church and being surrounded by these images these Saints you just you just you didn't feel alone in time you felt like you were part of something that stretched through the ages and when the priest you know held up the host this is my body you know it was it was an immense it was an immense comfort I mean we we were it really did help us it was something beyond ourselves it wasn't a religion that we had kind of pieced together and made up on her own which in the end was just very cold comfort so I just that's that sense that heaven is closed and what about the Bible now what about the Bible even the way you used to understand it well and that's that's the thing is that yeah and I'd reached the point I don't know thinking who feels exactly the same I'd reached a point cuz I had felt for so long I've been growing frustrated with Pras and theology and I had felt like I had had Saint the words of st. Paul shoved down my the book of Romans I felt like I've been shoved down my throat you know I did since I was born and I was getting so frustrated with Paul I now love Paul again and it is such a wonderful thing to feel love for Paul and be able to you know and the love you know when you know I'd always heard all that you know I'd always heard no I'll Catholics don't have the same regard for the Bible well first time we went you know first time I go to Mass and I'm actually you know paying it we have four readings and and then we have four readings from Scripture and you know the priest may touch on all of a homily but maybe not so the Catholics in my view were trusting to God's promise that he will his word will not return void they they will let his word speak for itself it doesn't need as much commentary is trust that God's Word will well be effective and and I'll never forget you sign up for our CI a the 1st 1st week and our pre the priest leading our say give me his business card and another verse that had really been on my mind through all this was when Christ said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free and as a Protestant I didn't feel that way I certainly didn't feel like I could say I knew the truth I had you know guess is it the truth I felt fairly confident about some things but I didn't feel like I knew the truth and but when I walked in the priest gave me his business card that verse was on his business card you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free and that's that's been exactly our experience it's just it is so freeing to lay down that burden and I'd say that to protestants out there it is so freeing to lay down the burden of feeling I have to do this all on my own confession wonderful it's so funny because I think that wasn't a tradition in know it's buddy I think toward the end of my seminary experience I had really started to embrace sacramental theology and I thought this is kind of filling in the blanks for all these things that I felt was missing in my faith and I didn't understand why and I didn't know how to make it better you know going to Bible study and doing all these things isn't helping and so it's one thing to kind of have an intellectual assent to the sacraments but it's another thing to experience the sacraments and I just remember our first confession so our oldest - by the time we came into the church were in sixth and there were nine and eleven fourth grade so they came into the church with us they went through a little mini RCIA they were they were on board so we're standing in line for confession and the line is eternal just waiting and waiting and I wasn't really sure I wasn't really expecting anything I just thought well I need to go to confession before we're you know before the big day on Monday when we received into the church and to experience confession and to come out afterwards it the kids and I all had the same experience and you know we said I feel like my soul has been through a carwash like I just feel so clean it was it was amazing and to be able to I mean now you know just the grace of of confession is wonderful and just all these graces that God gives us through the sacraments I don't I can't imagine going through life without them now once you see it then you read something like second Corinthians 5:17 that says anyone who is in Christ is a new creation the old has gone the new has come it's hard not to imagine that behind that is st. Paul's sacramental theology whether it's baptism or reconciliation yes or the Eucharist or marriage the old is gone the new has come yes ordination behind that is this being in Christ through the sacraments yes which isn't there in the other traditions and that's the way to really have a personal relationship with Jesus which is so important you know to Baptists and I've never felt like my relationship with Jesus has been more personal than now as a Catholic experiencing the sacraments was it hard to invite Mary and Joseph and all the saints into your prayer life that's a heart sometimes a hard step by the time we were but I think by that time by by the time we had started RCIA I think that kind I think things were falling in place I and since our son had been so I mean he had to kind of let our let us let us you know on with the Saints it wasn't it actually came fairly fairly naturally I think it once once we were you know really going through this yeah what about kneeling before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration that's not quite quite a Baptist thingy on that one you know I Peter I remember Peter reading something you know Peter Craig said you know either the Eucharist is one Catholics claim to be you're Catholics or idolaters and he's right and but once you know again once I had accepted that the Eucharist is what the Church teaches it was Nats again it just seemed natural and it's finished yeah our kids have been you know there were nine eleven the only mice when when I when I was started are CIA and the fall of 2010 my son even though he was very much aware of the Saints you know his his prayer requests the first day of school that year was that my dad not become a Catholic and so we had to work with Wed we've had to work with our kids through through that and that was that's been a tremendous blessing because I mean as they to see them come into the church and to appreciate the sacraments and to deepen their it's very much their faith very much now we've got about a minute or so left let's say that there's a Baptist watching or an instrumental Church of Christ watching you know what would you like to say to them to encourage them to make the same journey home you've made why should they do it grace I thought if I had to pick one word it'd be grace I mean you don't have to go through you can go that Christ instituted a church to communicate grace to you where you don't have to be in any question about it don't don't turn them down oh my there's so much here for us I mean I just think about when I walk and you know every every time we go to mass we're just surrounded by layers of history and it's you know the Saints are there with us and and our Lord is there with us and it's it's something that we didn't create it's always been there it's outside of us and it's just it's beautiful you know I have often thought that I've heard as many times in the program where people say that when they look back on their non Catholic theology that was a mile wide and an inch deep that's exactly right and when you discover the beauty of Catholic history and theology and philosophy that you know it's it's just a jealous endless and I also think that that's also what happens when you become Catholic is you start breaking away the layers of your own self centeredness and and it caused you to grow and to grow and to grow and sometime you know Lord I am unworthy you know that's that's part of what it means to be Catholic Nicky and Jason thank you both so much for joining us on the thirty all sharing your story with us and may the Lord bless you you and your family as you continue to enjoy his many blessings as Catholics you think thank you for joining us for this episode of the journey home I hope their stairs have been the courage mention you [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music]

Channel: EWTN

Views: 30,496

Rating: 4.7554584 out of 5

Keywords: Catholic, EWTN, Christian, television, convert, JHT01420

Id: Ii9k8Ppnz28

Length: 56min 12sec (3372 seconds)

Published: Mon Feb 10 2014