New Trump poll: "This is what you'd expect from a cult"

hi everyone sorry I'm running late I'm doing an Instagram live with Charlie Sykes I'm a big fan of Charlie's he is a co-founder and editor at large at the bulwark uh host of the bulwark podcast author of the morning shots newsletter and an NBC MSNBC contributor hi everybody hi great to see you all I'm going to give you a minute to join but I'm talking to Charlie Sykes about our increasingly insane political situation in this country and really about the latest news about how former president Trump is really actually further ahead than he has ever been and what we all need to know about what's going on so let me just find Charlie real quick you guys here he is hey Charlie hey good to be with you so nice to see you I'm such a fan of yours and I've really enjoyed reading the bull work and uh your newsletter almost as much as I enjoy by reading my newsletter every morning but let's talk about what's happening in politics Where Do We Begin I think we should begin with this New York Times Siena College poll released today that revealed that former president Donald Trump is dominating his Rivals for the Republican Presidential nomination leading his nearest Challenger Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida by a landslide 37 percentage points nationally among likely Republican voters your reaction well I was just reading an article about it with the headline the Doom poll um because it's a pretty good indication that I think you have to be somewhere between naive and delusional not to think that Donald Trump uh is going to win the Republican nomination and I mean just get your head around the fact that he has been indicted twice uh faces to more indictments um I don't think there's any question about his character or his judgment or the way he behaved and yet he's got this iron grip on the Republican party and I the poll has so many interesting numbers in it including just the extent to which Republican voters live in an alternative reality Universe uh they don't think that he did anything wrong uh they don't they don't have the objections to his attempt to overturn the election and I think it's something like you correct me from wrong on this but something like 22 percent of uh people who believe that he committed serious crimes are going to vote for him anyway I mean think about that how do you explain that I mean Charlie how do you explain that so many Republican voters are not phased by what is clearly criminal activity or seemingly criminal activity and people are saying they don't understand it either and you know I'm not sure Charlie you can explain it but do you want to try well yeah and there's a lot of things going on here maybe you know one is the alternative reality you know silos that we live in uh but this is this is what you'd expect from a cult right where where whatever the cult leader does is accepted and after seven years of rationalizing and defending and enabling Donald Trump we get to this point where people go you know I don't care if he's a criminal he's our criminal the other side is so evil is so dangerous that we're going to support him no matter what and the other factor is that you know frankly you have people like Ron DeSantis and others who are running against him who are not willing to you know speak truth to the Republican base look this man has violated the law he has put men and women in the armed services at risk he has tried he has supported uh uh you know an attempted Insurrection against the United States government instead they're merely-mouthed about it or you know they can engage in a lot of what about ISM but after seven years of none of the thought leaders of the right really not I mean not obviously some of them but you know the vast majority of fault leaders of the right not really uh leading on this particular issue um this is where you get at a certain point there's been a lot of cowardice there's been a lot of people who just you know kept their heads down it's transactional uh they get what they want from Donald Trump um but it is an extraordinary moment because every single day I don't know whether you do this but if you go on social tooth social you see an old man screaming at the clouds in all caps with the most deranged insults and conspiracy theory days and there are millions of Americans that look at that and go yeah we're okay with that we're going to put him back into the Oval Office it is amazing you know and I think people should understand your background I mean you're a pretty hardcore we're a pretty hardcore Republican uh a conservative thought leader I mean you've been a long time conservative voice um and and so you actually you did take a stand and say this is not for me sorry my daughter's cat is I just wanted to make sure it wasn't scratching the furniture um but but but so many people have it what caused you to to to to to make a break with your former party well I I have told this story before it wasn't actually hard at all I mean I I looked around and I thought you know you cannot be serious I mean Donald Trump is unfit by you know any possible measure to be the president of the United States and so in many ways it was uh this this soul-crushing experience of watching uh other other conservatives and Republicans uh go along with all of this including people who I knew understood who he was I mean at one time I wasn't very good friends with with Paul Ryan the speaker of of the house and he was under no Illusions who Donald Trump was and yet like so many other Republican he decided to make that Faustian bargain and I just wasn't willing to do that and so it's been a profoundly disillusioning experience I mean I I've said this before but Donald Trump is Donald Trump I mean he is this you know billionaire narcissist chronic liar um and and he is you know he's he's played out exactly the way you'd expect the really shocking thing has been one watching all of the other Republicans go along with him and saying we find this acceptable and it gets worse all the time leads us to today I mean today is kind of a logical end point to all of the surrenders all of the things that they've been willing to swallow ever since he came down that golden escalator ever since the Access Hollywood videotape and they said yeah we're still going to support him you know once you've carved on not that many slices of your soul I guess it becomes very hard to back away let's talk about some of the other candidates in the Republican field really the only person who is speaking against Donald Trump is Chris Christie will hurt I guess spoke against him in Iowa and got food so um you know what where do we start let me first ask you and and well tell me about that I mean what are the other Republican candidates thinking are they making making a Faustian deal as well thinking we cannot lose that many uh Republicans who are really Donald Trump's base I think part of it's that I mean some of them I'm wondering whether we're actually running for president or whether they want to be vice president um because generally when you run against somebody you run against somebody so I think some of them are just auditioning to you know for the number two slot um I think a lot of them are afraid that they they just cannot antagonize that Mega base um uh and then you have Ronda Sanders who thinks that he's going to compete with the hardcore Trump base the problem with the hardcore Trump base is their hardcore Trump base they're gonna move off that all the time it's about 35 of the Republican electorate that is not going to vote for anybody else and so it's not about it's not about ideology it's about personality oh yes it's about attitude it's about hating the right people and I think this was one of the big mistakes that Rhonda Sanders made he actually thought it was about ideology he thought it was about policies and ideas when it's really about entertainment it is about attitude it's about your willingness to fight for the sake of fighting so um you you have this uh and then there's also a lot of you know quite frankly Katie there's a lot of magical thinking which is that you know something something something unicorn maybe he'll die that we don't have to attack him maybe something is going to happen and the skies will open some meteor will come and take Donald Trump out because none of them seem to have a real strategy for beating him which leads us to these three other guys um Chris Christie will hurt and ASA Hutchinson none of them are going to win this nomination none of them are going to be president but I have to say that what they're doing is important because they are voices from within the house they're willing to go to Republican events like will Hurd went to that Iowa Lincoln Day dinner ASA Hutchinson went to Turning Point USA Chris Christie is going to be on that debate stage and they're willing to tell Republican voters what is at stake not just that Donald Trump is a loser I mean they're making that point but more fundamentally that he is somebody who does not put the country first somebody who has violated the law somebody who cannot be trusted and so I think it's important it's valuable like I have a lot of problems with with Chris Christie I I go way back on all this I mean the role he played in helping Trump was I I have a real hard time getting over it on the other hand he's doing something valuable right now the least I mean how do we penetrate into that Alternatives your reality silence it's not going to be NPR the New York Times yeah the MSNBC or us it's got to have to be somebody from within that Republican party who is willing to say these blunt things but is that having any impact I seem to have read recently about a poll that said Trump's troubles was starting to erode some of his support among some Republicans I couldn't find it when I Was preparing for this interview but uh you know to what end are they having any impact and are any Republicans being dissuaded uh from their loyalty to Donald Trump well we started off with a poll that would suggest that no they're not right but the question is okay what is the metric how many Republicans they need to have to peel off how many uh Independents are watching what's going on here I mean we do we are focusing on the minority of a minority we are focusing on uh this this Republican uh Trump as base but general elections are not decided by just the base they're decided by a lot of uh disaffected voters and so you know I I do think that they look I if if Chris Christie you know were to peel off three percent of the vote in key States from Donald Trump that could be decisive in a presidential election so no they're not going to get there he's not going to be the nominee no I mean I don't understand what you're saying well one of the thing is that he's speaking to voters who I think will be the swing voters oh so in other words if they sit on their hands and don't support Trump but obviously that's that's what you're talking about peeling votes right right right right no I mean exactly not as a third party candidate but keeping the drum beat up you know saying you know same things like uh well and again and Chris Christie is you know he's all out of bleeps to give and so he's very bluntly going after you know what a fraud Donald Trump is and he's saying it in terms that nobody else said I'm not going back to 2016. uh it was only you know after it was too late that you had people say you know this is a disaster and then a lot of these people fell into the line so again Chris Christie is not gonna be on the ballot and he's not going to beat Donald Trump but he's at least providing this counter voice and that may also and again now this is wish casting on my part Maybe create a permission structure for others to be more critical maybe opening the door for Nikki Haley to be a little bit more critical and again I don't think there's any way to stop Donald Trump at this point but you go into that general election um and you have somebody who has been indicted perhaps convicted of felonies and you have voices that at one time were trusted by Republican voters speaking out against him uh again on the margins it might make a difference I mean I think even people listening to this and hearing that he may be convicted of felonies and he's still the Republican front-runner and could possibly be elected president of the United States again in 2024 I'm going to quote somebody who wrote something for CNN a guy named Harry enten I don't he was formerly a senior political writer and Analyst at 5 38. listen to this Charlie Trump is not only in historically strong position for a non-incumbent to win the Republic the Republican nomination but he is in a better position to win the general election than at any point during the 2020 cycle and almost at any point during the 2016 cycle now given what has transpired and what is still going likely to transpire I think people listening to this are like WTF how can this be the case well I wake up every morning thinking that um and also I I just almost every morning I want to you know remind people you are not the ones that took the crazy pills you are not The Crazy Ones but this is a reality and I and I think that there is a certain uh complacency where people say well you know the Republicans are losing or they'll destroy themselves um not necessarily and I think that that's why people ought to be very alarmed I think they ought to be very very engaged in all of this and they shouldn't be in denial uh about the real danger of what a second Trump term would would be like is a second Trump term I think would be exponentially worse than the first one because now he's figured out where you know where the doorknobs are how to open the doors where the where the buttons are he would surround himself with the most deplorable imaginable characters I mean as bad as Trump won Trump 1.0 was there were in fact serious people and grown-ups who did you know hold him back back on some of the more extreme things he's not going to make that mistake again he's going to surround himself with uh with the most pliable possible Yes Man and he's made no secret of what he would do I know some pretty I I'd love you to elaborate on that because there's been some pretty scary reporting yeah about some of the the the strategy or plans for a second Trump term can you talk about that because I want to make sure people know about this well I mean again it's not just the reporting he he has said it I mean Donald Trump has made no secret of his plans you know when he says I am your retribution that he he will use the power of the federal government to go after his political opponents he will strip the Department of Justice the FBI of their independence he would weaponize the IRS he's talked openly about dismantling the intelligence apparatus of the United States uh you know he makes no secret about it he's also um quite serious I think about using the power um and I think this would be unconstitutional but basically going after the Deep state by firing uh thousands of civil service employees and trying to replace them with political loyalists Donald Trump wants to make the federal government an instrument of his own personal political ambition and you don't have to believe me just listen to what he has said and people should not be shocked and he's got got people around him like the people at the Heritage Foundation who are willing to support him and come up with arguments why the President should have total control over the government so what's ironic is right now he's talking about the Biden Administration weaponizing the Department of Justice which it's not but this is very much from Trump's Playbook he's projecting because he intends to do that and nobody should be on any Illusions or expected republicans in Congress will act as a bulwark against what he's going to do that's the other thing don't be so confident you may not have Mitch you may hate Mitch McConnell right now but you're going to miss him when he's gone if in fact you have a trump presidency again I just want want to read the opening paragraph to a New York Times piece from July 17th it says Trump and allies forged plans to increase Presidential Power in 2025. Donald J Trump and his allies are planning a sweeping expansion of presidential power over the Machinery of government if voters return him to the White House reshaping the structure of the executive branch to concentrate far greater Authority directly in his hands it reminds me a little bit about of what's going on in Israel right now well again um this is this is why I I think people ought to be concerned because what you see in authoritarian leaders around the the world is they're looking at one another and they're taking their cues from one another and again I'm not telling you or your listeners anything they don't know but you know Donald Trump is not subtle about the people he admires um the kinds of leaders that he admires you know not just Vladimir Putin uh but also people like uh you know erdogan in in turkey and an Orban in Hungary and Netanyahu in in Israel and all of them are are really sort of testing the limits of how much they can how much they can expand their own power and the first thing they do of course is to go after the checks and the balances the independent uh the independent uh institutions in their society and that New York Times story uh I think is it does not overstate what Trump is talking about doing if you read a lot of the right wing uh Trump is Media use see that they are working on this the Steve Bannon already you know openly talks about you know having having this Army ready or to to you know hit the beach head uh on January 21st 2025. so this is all very very real and I think that Democrats need to be very very conscious of this and not go back to that 2016 Cockiness that well you know Donald Trump's the nominee there's no way that he will be elected um we don't have to take these swing States quite as seriously that would be a huge mistake this time around you know you say people shouldn't be in a state of denial but I'm sure a lot of people watching this 780 people right now are wondering well what the heck are we supposed to do about this um I think you know if if this individual represents an existential threat to our democracy what can people do clearly this base and these supporters and I'd love to hear from some of trump supporters if they want to explain in our question section why they still support president Trump please have at it but what can the average person do it's pretty it's pretty unsettling Charlie well it is unsettling and and I live in one of the the states that will decide the outcome I live in Wisconsin and you know and if you live in Wisconsin uh Michigan Pennsylvania uh I would say uh Arizona and Nevada Georgia um you know it's going to be on your shoulders these states could be decided by 10 000 votes or or less and that will decide who wins the the electoral college so I would certainly become engaged um everybody has a different role to play in all of this I I I I give a lot of thought to that your question because you know I for the last seven years you know I've written about Donald Trump you know I've you know pushed back against Trump and you look at that poll you started with and you realize okay well this is not working in the Republican party what can we do but also I think people need to understand that the center of power in the Republican party has changed um you know for years Republicans were the party of big business and and you know finances were determined by you know what the business Community would would support that's no longer the case right now um right now if you're in in Republican politics it is the small donors that really will determine whether or not you are viable and so you're seeing you know people like Marjorie Taylor Green rise to be Superstars because no matter how outrageous they are they can count on you know you know retirees from Georgia you know sending them five dollars or or ten dollars um but to your point I think the business Community ought to be alarmed by this um they ought to be alarmed particularly because what will it do to America's status in the world we don't live on an island and Donald Trump one of the one of the things the most dangerous things you and I have been talking about is domestic uh agenda he would also have an international agenda that would isolate the United States and would alienate this country for many of our most important allies and trading partners and perhaps that's cozy cozy up to people who are really dangerous right exactly um and we've we've seen the damage that he could perhaps do in terms of trade yeah and yes um you know his his fascination with the Vladimir Putin's of the world or the president Jesus of the world you know ought to be very very uh alarming um but it but again uh you know don't expect the United States would have the same relationship with many of our trading partners under under a trump presidency you talk about money and by the way everyone if you're just joining us I'm having a great conversation with Charlie Sykes who is the co-founder and editor at large of the bulwark and um I highly recommend his morning shots newsletter uh just because it's interesting to get Charlie's perspective and you have a great team of writers on your newsletter you know you talked about small dollars but I wanted to ask you about this Washington Post article that showed that Trump's pack save America has spent more than 40 million dollars on legal costs this year for Trump and others involved in the investigations a lot of people asked on social were how is Trump able to use money donated to his campaign for his legal defense well I I think it's probably technically legal to do this but this is a fascinating a fascinating Story the way in which his his political action committee has become a slush fund and a hush fund uh you know paying off uh you know using it for lawyers who obviously um will have influence on people who will testify in this case in these cases but I I just find it really interesting that here is and again it goes to the heart of trumpism that where did that money come from that money came from small donors that came from working class people that came from from cops and firefighters and retirees who watch Fox News and he takes that money and uses it to pay lawyers to defend himself and his cronies remember he's allegedly a billionaire he's the guy that flies around on his own jet but he won't pay for his own lawyers I guess Charlie I mean maybe this is naive but how can that be legal well yeah okay I'm not a lawyer and I'm not going to play one here um I did I've heard people say that this has been going on for some time but it certainly pushes the limits and um I would certainly be interested in the legal challenge of this but also his his his long-standing practice of misleading and leeching money out of his own supporters no one has more content for his own supporters than Donald Trump I mean this is the thing is that he will tell them oh you know send me money and I will fight the stolen election and then not do it this may by the way be one of the charges that Jack Smith brings this was a key finding from the January 6th committee the way in which he he misled donors to give him money now there are charges that can be brought under wire fraud you know raising money under false pretenses but I think the fact that he spent 40 million dollars that was the number one expense of his political action committee is a real tell and I don't know what whether the you know they the grandmas the grandpas that are you know sending him five ten dollars every month whether they're okay with all of this uh but it's certainly a weird a weird Twist on the new populism right is that little people get to pay the legal bills of billionaires let me you know we're not gonna review all the the cases against Trump but the classified documents case the trial date has been set January 6 he got a Target letter the investigation is concluding uh we're expecting an indictment anytime you know at any moment now uh the election inquiry in Georgia the investigation is concluding there um so are any of these criminal cases or any of these cases none of them would preclude Donald Trump from running again would they no and and speaking of like flaws um even conviction would not preclude him from taking office there is no constitutional bar to a convicted felon being the president United States because the founders never imagined that something like this could happen so it is quite possible and I I've actually uh they mean Chris Christie made an interesting point said you know when we have the debate here in Milwaukee um later in in August Donald Trump May well be on you know out on bail on four separate felony indictments four separate cases I think it's not impossible at all that he could come back here to Milwaukee next summer to get the Republican nomination wearing an ankle bracelet it's just crazy isn't it when you uh when you consider all of this I mean it's my like head is exploding right now I wanted to ask you um let me see if I have I have really smart people who listen to these um I just want to see is the GOP salvageable one somebody wanted to know well it's not going to return to its uh it's it's it's old um yeah identity it the The Hangover from what's Happening Now is going to last for a very very long time but I guess the flip side of this would be that we as a country don't really have an option we can't just have one same political party and if you look at the map you see the number of states where you're going to have Republican Governors or senators or or legislatures and so you're going to have to at some point encourage the shrinking sane wing of that party uh not to Simply go away one of the dangers is that a lot of normal people know they're saying people are just leaving politics they're leaving the Republican party uh they're being driven out people like Liz Cheney Adam kinzinger who've been driven out uh the problem with that is their places are often taken by the crazies by the extremists by the millions and and yet uh let's face it um you know States like Idaho and Wyoming are still are going to be run by Republicans so it's not just can the Republican Party be salvages can the sane remnant of the Republican Party be salvaged and that's a tough question what about the No Labels party and the rfk's Junior's popularity who who is is that likely going to hurt well RFK Junior siphon votes away from Trump or Biden in your view how do you explain his popularity well I'd explain his popularity you know two ways number one I mean some of it just has to do with name recognition some people who just remember the Kennedys uh that's the least dangerous um the more troubling part is that Robert F Kennedy Jr is alone I mean he is a dangerous conspiracy theorist I mean he is a reckless actor and it it is certainly a sign of our times that somebody like this has taken seriously it's it's an indication of the way in which um we have uh you know turned our politics into pure entertainment and and opened the doors and some of these crackpot ideas now I don't know whether he's going to run as a third party a candidate or fourth Party candidate uh I actually think that he would probably hurt Trump more because he would draw from that conspiracy theorist um I don't think that he's going to have much traction in the Democratic primary the No Labels folks um are more problematic I think because I understand the appeal I mean I come from this I don't want to be tribal I don't want to have the same old choices before I understand why people want to contribute money why they want to go along with it but right now I think the real danger is that the No Labels folks who play the role of spoilers it's going to be a very close election it shouldn't be a close election uh if they siphon off uh votes from uh from Joe Biden this could be the scenario that reelects uh Donald Trump Donald Trump can't win a majority of the vote but if he could be elected president with 41 percent of the vote that's that's a real possibility and I guess they've been talking about Joe manchin and John Huntsman as an alternative blade uh or alternative ticket uh do you think that's likely to happen or do you think they'll say we don't want to be spoilers well I hope they say they don't want to be spoilers um I I mean I hope that the conclusion they come to because I think the danger of returning Donald Trump is so great you don't play around with it and again uh Katie I mean I understand uh the appeal of a third way of of something that breaks this particular fever but 2024 is not that year 2024 is is going to be your we can't play around you can't we're not holding a seminar in you know how to reform our politics this is like the analogy I would use is this is this is the heart attack and and you bring in the EMTs you can have the seminar on how to cure cancer later but right now we have the heart attack and I'm afraid that no labels vote um which has you know a lot of money and a lot of people who are making money off of it um are playing a very dangerous game right now let's I want to ask you about Hunter Biden but because uh you know night after night when you turn on Fox News it really is about Hunter Biden his problems and you know whether or not he did more or there was uh influence peddling and if the Biden family benefited financially from some of these deals you know you get a very different perspective on the world when you watch Fox News or you read the New York Post so I guess the question how do you explain these two parallel universes I mean I think I understand but also how much is this going to continue to help Trump and perhaps cause erosion in Joe Biden's support well that's an excellent question because this is not going away this is going to be um this is going to be a big issue through 2024 because it's an absolute psychological and political necessity for Republicans to come up with a distraction you know how do you deal with the dishonesty and the corruption of trump and his family will you play the what about ISM card which is very powerful you change the subject if they can convince the American voters that okay Trump may be a crook but everybody's corrupt everybody's a crook then what you have done is you've you you've shifted the window so you know like if if everybody's corrupt nobody's corrupt if everybody's been impeached then it's no big deal so the worse it gets for Donald Trump in terms of the indictments the more pressure there will be to go after Hunter Biden and to impeach Joe Biden now as for Hunter Biden there's a big cloud of sleaze here let's be honest about this there's a lot of baggage there um and when people hear about it the amount of money he was making you know from China and Ukraine Romania whatever um people are looking at him saying it was it's you're trading on your name it's sleazy button is not Joe Biden and so far there is no evidence linking Joe Biden to any of these deals if there is of course that changes it but I don't know in American history that that anyone's political career has gone down because they had a you know unfortunate child or brother or sister um and at this point um look I I'm very sympathetic to Joe Biden as a father who's lost his uh you know one of his his children I mean he's lost multiple I mean he's gone through so much tragedy and he doesn't want to throw his son under the bus he loves his son and so he's being a good father but at some point um he's going to have to and Democrats are going to have to deal with the fact that that Hunter Biden is a is a real liability and um you know and again I I expect this is going to be a major issue throughout 2024 because Joe Biden has had this sort of nice guy persona and if they chip away at that then they they can make sort of a false moral equivalency between him and the Trump crime family obviously uh he you know hurts him and helps Donald Trump even if it's based on the big lie that he that he himself uh has benefited from the corruption yeah I mean I think they they're very successful at kind of planting these seeds of doubt and either getting people to say a pox on both of their houses or that's a win for them right or kind of thinking yeah I mean all right I'm just so flummoxed by everything that's going on I wanted to ask you just close by asking you about an essay you wrote last week um called American gerontocracy which I enjoyed reading it was in response to to Mitch McConnell's episode when he froze during a press conference you know again I thought it was sort of uh I don't know what your reaction was when he made a joke about tripping on a sandbag it did seem you know and people criticized me for posting it and said one woman said why don't you post when Joe Biden trips or when Joe Biden seems to stumble or say something that is you know kind of weird you know God Save the Queen or whatever he said and um I'm just curious what your reaction was to Mitch McConnell's uh pretty concerning incident and the fact that it brings out other people saying what about Joe Biden well this is life in a gerontocracy where we have um let me get the these ages wrong 81 year old uh Senate minority leader 80 year old president 77 78 year old chick Challenger you have Dianne Feinstein in the United States Senate you have people like Chuck Grassley I mean this is a you know a moment where a lot of things are hanged by a thread and going back to our conversation about this presidential election you think about having guys in their 80s you know with all of this weight on their shoulder and I think what I wrote in there was okay this is kind of a just a reminder that I mean because everybody's talking about what Mitch McConnell is this the end of Mitch McConnell's career should he step aside and then Dianne Feinstein had another moment you know within the next couple of days for either for Donald Trump or for Joe Biden particularly for Joe Biden though one stumble one fall one 32nd blanking out and our politics changes and the presidents who get hanged by a thread and I just think we gotta you know I worry about that I mean I'm just I'm telling you I worry about it sorry to interrupt but you quoted Charlie Mike Murphy yeah saying who I'm friendly with who's a republican political consultant saying that it's time for a good friend of president bidens to pull him aside do you think we've gotten to that point and if not Joe Biden who well I I have thought a lot about that and um I almost wrote an article saying the same thing but but I that's where I come to is like so what's the alternative um you know what what is the plan B and I'm not sure what the plan B is um I'm not I'm not sure that Kamala Harris is a stronger candidate than he is in 2024. so I understand the I understand the concern I think it's a legitimate concern but I don't think that things get better if it's if it is uh if it is wide open um in the primary right now um so and again this is another reason to be concerned about Donald Trump it's not as if I mean we can talk about Joe Biden's record in his presidency but we're living in a political era in which people's appearance and their personality and the and the and just the and the narrative around them is more important than what government program they have they have authored and and and and Joe Biden is vulnerable respect so you know before we go I just want to ask you one final question about this so-called gerontocracy you know should there be age limits I mean how do you how do you handle sort of people who are this old holding positions of power for so long term limits some kind of mental acuity test I mean you know it doesn't seem fair to have an age limit because people at different ages have different capabilities so what is the solution is just waiting for the Next Generation to fill these shoes what I I don't I don't know because any of those Solutions might be perceived to be unfair but um and by the way this also applies to members of the U.S Supreme Court you know who obviously we've decided that that being a Supreme Court Justice is like being Pope the only way you leave is if you die um so I I you know I wish I had an answer for you I've become more sympathetic to the idea idea of term limits as we watch all of this you know particularly in the legislative positions uh but I I don't know that there's a solution other than to uh wait for the next Generation to come along but I'm open to every one of those suggestions that you said I wouldn't roll any of those out well Charlie you've been so generous with your time again this is Charlie Sykes everybody he is the editor of the bulwark and um it and it has a great newsletter how do people sign up for your newsletter by the way go to Katie couric.com to sign up for mine but what about yours Charlie well go to the thebow work.com and you can uh you can sign up for all of our newsletters uh find our podcast there I do a daily podcast as as well and if you want to join our community of the non-crazy the non-crazies uh to be able to fight for the to be a bulwark of democracy you can also join bulwark plus all right well Charlie again really a pleasure talking to you about all these issues I don't think we solved anything but perhaps uh We've illuminated some of the harsh realities that our country is facing at this moment in time and and I'm grateful to you for helping do that well thank you so much for having me on okay take care thanks everybody for watching bye

Channel: Katie Couric

Views: 71,663

Keywords: Katie Couric, Katie, Celebrity, Entertainment

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Length: 41min 58sec (2518 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 01 2023