IN FACT, ON TOP OF ALL OF THIS, THERE MIGHT POSSIBLY BE MORE INDICTMENTS TO COME. TODAY, THE SAME, GRAND JURY THAT INDICTED TRUMP LAST WEEK WAS SPOTTED MEETING AGAIN IN D.C.. GRAND JURIES CANNOT CONTINUE MEETING ON INDICTMENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN CHARGED, SO THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING ELSE. THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING NEW. AND, THAT COMES AFTER WE GOT THIS A VERY GREAT REPORTING FROM BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN ON POLITICO. ON MONDAY, JACK SMITH'S PROSECUTORS HAD A CLOSED-DOOR INTERVIEW WITH A FRIEND OF RUDY, BERNIE KERIK. AND THEY ASKED MR. KERIK, MULTIPLE QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW TRUMP'S PACK, SAVE AMERICA, RAISE ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY IN THE WEEKS BETWEEN THE ELECTION AND JANUARY 6TH. YOU MAY REMEMBER THAT TRUMP RAISED MORE THAN 200 AND $50 MILLION IN THE EIGHT WEEKS AFTER THE 2020 ELECTION, AND HE DID SO BY RUNNING ADS LIKE THIS OR. >> AMERICA DESERVES AN HONEST ELECTION. THIS IS WHAT THEY GOT. SUITCASES OF BALLOTS, ADDED IN SECRET IN GEORGIA. DEAD PEOPLE VOTING IN WISCONSIN. A MONEY FOR VOTES SCHEME IN NEVADA. POLL WATCHERS DENIED ACCESS IN PENNSYLVANIA. FAULTY BALLOT DROP BOXES, AND CROOKS FACING FELONY CHARGES IN MICHIGAN. THE EVIDENCE IS OVERWHELMING. >> FOR MONTHS, WELL BEFORE TRUMP'S LATEST INDICTMENT CAME OUT, WE HADN'T SEEN REPORT AFTER REPORT, THAT SPECIAL COUNSEL JACK SMITH WAS INVESTIGATING TRUMP'S USE OF FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT THE ELECTION TO RAISE MONEY. WE EVEN HAVE REPORTING THAT SMITH WAS PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN SEEING IF ANY OF THAT ACTIVITY AMOUNTED TO WIRE FRAUD. AND NOW, IT LOOK LIKE WE HAVE CONFIRMATION THAT PART OF JACK SMITH'S INVESTIGATION, THE PART THAT DEALS WITH POTENTIAL WIRE FRAUD, CAMPAIGN FINANCE FRAUD, THAT THAT PART IS VERY MUCH ONGOING. THE SPECIAL COUNSEL MAY VERY WELL NOT BE DONE HERE. AND THAT MAY BE A GOOD CALL ON JACK SMITH'S PART, BECAUSE THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS NOT DONE LYING. >> THERE WAS NEVER A SECONDF ANY DAY, THAT I DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT THE ELECTION WAS RIGGED. IT WAS A RIGGED ELECTION. IT [APPLAUSE] WAS A REGULATION, AND IT WAS A STOLEN, DISGUSTING ELECTION. [APPLAUSE] AND THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE ASHAMED. >> JOINING US NOW ARE POLITICO NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT AND MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR BETSY -- . AND FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND CO-HOST OF THE PROSECUTING DONALD TRUMP PODCAST ANDREW WEISSMANN. THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME TONIGHT. ANDREW, ARE WE GOING TO SEE A SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT HERE, OR DO YOU THINK THIS GRAND JURY ACTION IS ABOUT THE COCONSPIRATORS WHO ARE UNNAMED IN THE INITIAL INDICTMENT? >> WELL, I THINK THAT THE ODDS OF SEEING THIS SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT IN THE JANUARY 6TH CASE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP ARE LOW. AND, THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S CLEAR THAT THE PROSECUTION WANTS THAT TO GO TO TRIAL, AND THEY WANT A TRIAL DATE, AND THEY WANT IT TO BE EITHER BEFORE THE ELECTION. >> FAST-TRACKED. >> OR EVEN BEFORE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION. BUT, WHAT WE COULD SEE IS TO YOUR POINT, THE COCONSPIRATORS, I THINK IT'S HIGHLY LIKELY THAT SOME, IF NOT ALL, WE WILL BE INDICTED. IN FACT, IN A SEPARATE CASE. AND THEN ON THE FINANCIAL PIECE, THAT ALSO COULD BE A SEPARATE SET OF CHARGES. AND THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY NEED TO GO ALL THE WAY UP TO DONALD TRUMP, TO RID THAT CASE. REMEMBER, THAT CASE IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE CASES BROUGHT AGAINST STEVE BANNON AND HIS COHORTS, AGAINST BUILD THE WALL. WHICH IS BASICALLY JUST A FRAUD CASE, WHEN YOU RAISE MONEY SAYING X, WHEN YOU MEANT NOT X. WHEN YOU HAVE THE SAME THING, WHAT I FIND IS VERY INTERESTING IF THAT PROCEEDS IS, THAT COULD LEAD TO PRETRIAL FOR FUTURE. WE DID THIS IN THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION, AND SO YOU COULD END UP WITH THAT PACKED, WITH A MONEY BEING FROZEN. >> THE SAVE AMERICA? PACK >> EXACTLY. AND WHAT IS BEING USED FOR. >> LEGAL BILLS. EXACTLY, SORRY BUT. >> WE TAKE IT ON THE ROAD. >> WAIT A SECOND, I MEAN THAT'S DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC, GIVEN THE FACT THAT THIS IS EFFECTIVELY THE PIGGY BANK FOR ALL OF THE DEFENDANTS, THAT ARE THUS FAR TROLLING THE LINE FOR DONALD TRUMP. THIS IS WHERE THERE -- ARE BEING PAID FROM. SO THE HOUSE THOSE FRONTS FROZEN, WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT LEGAL IMPLICATIONS. >> I MEAN THERE COULD BE OTHER FUNDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE. BUT IF THEY ARE FUNDS THAT ARE OBTAINED BY FRAUD, AND OBVIOUSLY THE GOVERNMENT HAVE TO PROVE THAT, THAT THERE IS A SHOWING THAT NEEDS TO BE MADE. BUT, YOU CAN GET PRETRIAL PROCEDURE ORDERS. WE DID THAT IN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL INVESTIGATION. OBVIOUSLY, THAT ALL REQUIRES PROOF, IT REQUIRES A COURT TO DO THAT. BUT IF THIS IS WHERE THEY ARE GOING, YOU COULD DO THAT, AND THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A CHARGE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP. IT CAN BE AGAINST THE PACK ITSELF, IT CAN BE AGAINST LOWER LEVEL PEOPLE, AND STILL HAVE BOTH CIVIL AND CRIMINAL FORFEITURE. >> BETSY, ONE OF THE REASON WE THINK THAT THE GRAND JURY IS HEARING EVIDENCE RELATED POSSIBLE CAMPAIGN FRAUD, IS BECAUSE BERNIE KERIK, WHO WE MENTIONED IN THE LEAGUE, AND ACCORDING TO YOUR REPORTING, WAS MEETING WITH PROSECUTORS ON MONDAY. CAN YOU TELL US MORE ABOUT WHY BERNIE KERIK MAY BE THE SORT OF KEVIN BACON OF ALL OF THIS? A PERSON THAT CONNECTS THE VARIOUS SPOKES ON THE WHEEL? >> YEAH, HE'S A BIT OF A FORREST GUMP TYPE CHARACTER. HE AND RUDY GIULIANI GO WAY WAY BACK, TO THEIR DAYS RUNNING A POWERFUL OFFICE WITHIN THE CITY OF NEW YORK. BERNIE KERIK OF COURSE WAS THE NYPD COMMISSIONER, HE HAS BEEN VERY CLOSE ALLIES OF GIULIANI FOR DECADES NOW. AND IN THAT CRAZY WINDOW, BETWEEN ELECTION DAY 2020, AND JANUARY 2026, BERNIE KERIK VERY MUCH WORKED HAND AND GLOVE WITH RUDY GIULIANI, UNDER, HIM ON THAT LEGAL TEAM THAT WAS TRYING TO FIND ANY SORT OF EVIDENCE, ANY SORT OF PRETEXT TO MAKE THE CASE THAT THE ELECTION HAD BEEN STOLEN BY JOE BIDEN. WHAT WE ALSO KNOW, BASED ON THE CONVERSATION THAT I HAD TODAY WITH BERNIE KERIK'S LAWYER, WHO IS IN THE ROOM WITH THE SPECIAL COUNSEL'S TEAM FOR THE INTERVIEW THAT BERNIE KERIK HELD WITH THEM EARLIER THIS WEEK, IS THAT JACK SMITH'S PROSECUTORS WERE VERY INTERESTED IN SAFE AMERICA, INTERESTED IN WHO WAS MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT FUND RAISING. AND ALSO, INTERESTED IN WHO WAS MAKING DECISIONS ABOUT HOW THE MONEY THAT THE PACK MAY RAISED WAS SPENT. WHEN IT COMES TO THIS FRAUD QUESTION, ONE THING PEOPLE SHOULD JUST KEEP IN MIND BASED ON PUBLIC REPORTING, GOING BACK FOR YEARS NOW, IS THAT A REAL BONE OF CONTENTION BETWEEN A RUDY GIULIANI AND PEOPLE IN TRUMP'S ORBIT, WAS THE FACT THAT RUDY GIULIANI ACTUALLY HARDLY GOT PAID DURING THAT WINDOW OF TIME. GIULIANI AND HIS ALLIES WERE PUSHING TRUMP, IN THE MONTH OR TWO AFTER BIDEN'S INAUGURATION, TO HELP PAY GIULIANI FOR WHAT HE HAD DONE, AND TO PAY FOR THE EXPLODING LEGAL BILLS THAT GIULIANI WAS FACING. SO, AN OUTSTANDING QUESTION IS NOT JUST, WE'RE THE SAVE AMERICA PACT FUNDRAISERS DELIBERATELY LYING POTENTIALLY COMMITTING LAW FRAUD, IN RAISING MONEY FOR THAT ENTITY. BUT ALSO, WHEN THEY CLAIMED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO USE THAT MONEY, THE MONEY PEOPLE GAVE VERY GENEROUSLY, THESE TRUMP SMALL DOLLAR DONATIONS GAVE IN THAT WINDOW. WHEN THEY SAID THEY'RE GOING TO USE THAT MONEY TO CONTEST THE ELECTION, WHAT DO THEY ACTUALLY DO WITH IT, AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE STANDPOINT OF THE LIES GOVERNING CAMPAIGN FINANCE? >> BETSY, JUST REALLY QUICK. I MEAN FROM TIM PARLATORE, WHO WE'VE HAD ON THIS PROGRAM AS RECENTLY AS LAST WEEK. IS THE LAWYER IN QUESTION HERE, THERE HAS NOT BEEN THE PUBLIC SUGGESTION THAT BERNIE KERIK IS GOING TO BE GIVEN, SHALL WE SAY -- EVIDENCE THE PROSECUTION. BUT IT SORT OF SOUNDS LIKE HE MIGHT. >> THAT'S RIGHT, I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY INDICATORS THAT BERNIE KERIK'S TESTIMONY WAS THE SORT OF DISCUSSION THAT WOULD HAVE GOTTEN RUDY GIULIANI IN TROUBLE. BUT HE IS A PORT OF COURSE, WE COULD HE JUST KNOWS SO MUCH. WHEN IT COMES TO THE QUESTION OF FILLING IN FACTUAL GAPS, HAVING SOMEBODY WHO WAS IN THE ROOM FOR CONVERSATIONS, HAVING SOMEONE WHO CAN EXPLAIN ALL OF THE MINOR CHARACTERS WHO PLAYED IMPORTANT BUT PERHAPS UNDERESTIMATED ROLES IN THE MACHINATIONS THAT RUDY GIULIANI AND SIDNEY POWELL WERE INVOLVED IN. CARRICK HIMSELF PROVIDES THAT VALUABLE INSIGHT. HE IS NOT INDICATED, IN TRUMP'S INDICTMENT, AS AN UNINDICTED COCONSPIRATOR. BUT, WITHOUT A DOUBT, HE WAS VERY CLOSE, AND HAD DETAILED KNOWLEDGE OF THE ACTIVITIES OF
