National Book Festival Livestream - Day 2

>> >> >> >> >> TEST TEST TEST >> SPONSORED THE INSTITUTE OF MUSEUM AND LIBRARY SERVICES. >> HI, EVERYONE AN WELCOME TO THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. MY NAME IS COURTNEK KIM. >> I'M BRANDON MARSHALL AT THE SCHOOL OF THE ARTS IN WASH WASHINGTON. JASON RAY IZATION RAYNOLDS IS TT NATIONAL AMBASSADOR FOR YOUNG PEOPLE'S LITERATURE. >> JASON WILL TAKE SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS TODAY IT WOULD BE GREAT IF YOU CAN THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO ASK HIM. PUT THE QUESTIONS IN THE A&A FEATURE. WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW YOUR FIRST NAME AN WHERE YOU ARE WATCHING FOR. PLEASE INCLUDE THAT INFORMATION IN THE QUESTION AS WELL. BEFORE WE GET STARTED BY WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU FIRST, JASON, WHAT ASK YOUR FIRST ENROLL AS GENERAL AMBASSADOR FOR YOUNG PEOPLE'S LITERATURE? WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN UP TO? >> WHAT HAVE I BEEN UP TO? I WOULD LIKE TO SAY GOOD AFTERNOON. I'M HAPPY YOU ARE ALL ARE HERE. IT IS GOOD TO SEE EVERYBODY. WHAT DOES THE JOB ENTAIL? WHAT HAVE I BEEN UP TO? YOU KNOW, TO BE COMPLETELY HONEST WITH YOU COURTNEY, FIRST I WILL TELL I WHAT THE JOB IS AN THEN I WILL TELL YOU WHAT I HAVE BEEN UP TO AND HOW COMPLICATED IT HAS BEEN. THE JOB IS TO BE THE CHEERLEADER FOR LITERATURE FOR THIS COUNTRY. THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT IT IS IN A NUTSHELL. MY JOB IS TO ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO READ AND WRITE AND TO LEAN INTO STORY TELLING. TO LEAN INTO LITERATURE AN LEAN INTO THE LITERATURE THAT EXISTS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THEMSELVES AND LEAN INTO THE STORY THAT EXISTS ON THE INSIDE OF ALL OF US. TO CONNECT BY USING THESE STORIES THE MOST HUMAN THING ABOUT US ALL IS WE ALL HAVE A STORY. WHAT IS EVEN MORE HUMAN MOST OF OUR STORIES ARE MORE CLOSELY RELATED THAN WE THINK. WE JUST DON'T SHARE THEM ENOUGH. NOW THAT IS SORT OF THE JOB. THAT IS THE GOAL OF WHAT IT IS I AM DOING. BUT I'M ALSO JUST A HUMAN BEING LIVING THROUGH THE PANDEMIC. SO BECAUSE I'M JUST A PERSON LIVING THROUGH THE PANDEMIC, I'VE HAD TO PIVOT AND THINK ABOUT HOW I CAN MAKE THAT JOB HAPPEN, HOW I CAN FULFILL MY RESPONSIBILITIES WHILE DOING IT DIGITALLY. HOW CAN I MAKE SURE I AM WITH THE YOUNG FOLKS DIGITAL HOW CAN THEY KNOW I AM ROOTING FOR THEM AND FOSTER A LOVE OF STORY DOING ALL OF THAT DIGITALLY. WHAT I AM HOPING MOVING FORWARD IN THE NEXT YEAR I WILL BE ABLE TO TOUCH THE STREET AND SHAKE A FEW HANDS AND HAVE SOME HUMAN CONNECTION WITH SOME YOUNG FOLKS. >> I THINK THAT'S PERFECTLY DEFINES THE ROLE OF AMBASSADOR. WE ARE REALLY HAPPY TO SEE YOU ACTIVE IN OUR WORLD AS WELL. >> I APPRECIATE THAT. THANK YOU, COURTNEY. I'LL PAY YOU LATER. I WILL GET YOU A CHECK. THANK YOU FOR THAT. >> SO I WANTED TO ASK, A LOT OF YOUR BOOKS ARE THE LIVES OF YOUNG BLACK KIDS. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE FIRST TIME YOU REALIZED THAT PEOPLE MIGHT SEE YOU DIFFERENTLY BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN? >> GOOD QUESTION, MAN. BRANDON, BOTH OF YOU ARE FROM HERE. AS A YOUNG BLACK MAN YOU ARE FROM HERE. I KNOW -- WHEN WE SAY HERE, THE DC OR METRO METROPOLITAN AREA. I GREW UP AROUND ALL BLACK AREA. IT IS COMPLICATED FOR ME. I DON'T THINK I KNEW I WAS DIFFERENT. I DIDN'T THINK I KNEW THAT PEOPLE MIGHT TREAT ME DIFFERENTLY UNTIL I GOT TO COLLEGE. MY LIFE IN GENERAL I WAS AROUND BLACK HOLES MY WHOLE LIFE, BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD, BLACK COMMUNITY, BLACK SCHOOLS. WHEN I GOT TO COLLEGE, THINGS BECAME DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT. I'LL TELL YOU. I'LL TELL YOU ONE THE MOST OBVIOUS WAYS I NOTICED. IN MY CLASSROOMS, THINKING ABOUT MY CLASS ROOMS AND REALIZING EVERYBODY HAD READ THINGS I HADN'T READ BECAUSE MY COMMUNITY AND CULTURE WAS VERY DIFFERENT AND RECOGNIZING THAT MY COLLEGE PROFESSORS DID NOT RECOGNIZE MY CULTURE AND THE TRADITION. THE LITERARY TRADITIONS OR THE SEESOCIO LOGICAL TRADITIONS. THEY DIDN'T RECOGNIZE THEM AS ANYTHING WORTH STUDYING. IMAGINE HAVING -- OKAY, I GOT TO TAKE AN AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES CLASS WHICH IS A WONDERFUL THING BY THE WAY. THINK ABOUT THE FACT IF I DON'T TAKE THIS AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDY CLASS MY CULTURE AND HISTORY, WHICH IS WOULD HE HAVE EN INTO AMERICAN HISTORY WILL NEVER BE TAUGHT I WILL NEVER KNOW IT. IT IS WEIRD WE WERE THERE EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. LOOKING WHACK I THINK COLLEGE IS WHEN I STARTED TO REALIZE THAT MY EXPERIENCES WERE DIFFERENT. THAT MY CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES WERE DINNER THAN MY ROOMMATES OR CLASSMATES. AND THAT MY LIFE WAS NOT A LIFE APPARENTLY DEEMED WORTHY OF STUDYING OR THINKING ABOUT OR INTELLECTUALIZING OR CELEBRATING OR PRAISING AS SOMETHING THAT WAS HIGHLIGHT WHICH ARE OR HIGH ART EVEN KNOW TO ME IT WAS. AND IT IS. I THINK THAT'S THE WAY IT WAS. I GREW UP AROUND ALL LACK FOLKS. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW UNTIL I KNEW. >>> BRANDON: THANK YOU. >>> COURTNEY: ON A SIMILAR NOTE TO WHAT BRANDON ASKED BUT MAYBE A LITTLE BROADER, I ALSO NOTICED AS I READ MORE OF YOUR INTERVIEWS AND BOOKS IT BECOMES CLEARER THAT YOU ARE A BIG LOVING ADVOCATE FOR CHILDREN AND TEENS. AS A TEEN WHO IS NEARING HER 20s MYSELF TOO I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU WHAT DOES YOUTH MEAN TO YOU? FEEL FREE TO TAKE ANY DIRECTION WITH THIS QUESTION. WOULD I LOVE TO KNOW WHAT IS THE MATH THAT I CAN DRAWS INTO CHILDREN? HOW DID YOU VIEW CHILDREN FIRST WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD VERSUS NOW THAT YOU ARE AN ADULT AND ACCOMPLISHED AUTHOR WRITING FOR CHILDREN. WHAT DOES CHILDHOOD MEAN TO YOU? >>> JASON: THIS IS GOOD, RIGHT. THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION. I THINK FOR ME, YOUTH, YOUTH A AS -- OKAY, SO THE WORD YOUTH TO ME IS AN ENERGY. IT'S A PARTICULAR KIND OF LI LIKE -- IT'S A FEELING MORE SO THAN IT IS AN AGE RANGE. WHICH IS THE WAY I TRY TO STAY CONNECTED. THAT ENERGY. WHEN I THINK OF YOUNG PEOPLE, WHEN I THINK OF "THE YOUTH" I THINK OF HUMAN BEINGS WHO ARE LEARNING THINGS FOR THE FIRST TIME. BECAUSE THEY ARE LEARNING THEM FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR OWN LIVES, THEY ARE CHANGING THE MEANING OF THOSE THINGS. RIGHT? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? IT MEANS LET'S PICK MUSIC. IF YOU ASK YOUR GRANDMOTHER WHAT MUSIC IS, SHE WILL DEFINE THAT MUSIC BASED ON THE CONTEXT OF HER CHILDHOOD, WHERE SHE WAS WHEN SHE FIRST HEARD IT. SO IF IT IS MY MOM, THE 1950s, THE 1960s. TO HER MUSIC IS MOTOWN. THAT MUSIC SAT IN THE CONTEXT OF HER CHILDHOOD AND IT CHANGED BASED ON WHERE THEY WERE IN THAT SPACE AND IN THAT PARTICULAR TIME IN THE COUNTRY AND WORLD. THE SAME GOES FOR MUSIC TODAY IF I SAY WHAT IS MAKE, YOU MAY BE LIKE MUSIC IS DOGA CAT, TAYLOR SWIFT. BASED ON YOUR LIVES AN HOW YOU ARE CHANGING IT TO FIT THAT CONTEXT. SO FOR ME, WHEN I THINK OF YOUNG PEOPLE AND THE ENERGY OF YOUTH I'M THINKING ABOUT TAKING SOMETHING WE ALL THINK WE KNOW AND CHANGING IT, PUSHING IT, FORWARD, DISRUPTING IT, AND T TATEING IT SO THEY CAN BECOME A NEW THING THAT WE CAN CLAIM AND RENAME AS OUR OWN. THAT IS A SPECIAL THING THAT I NEVER ACTUALLY WANT TO LET GO OF. WHAT IT ALLOWS ME TO DO IS CONTINUE TO GROW. IF YOU LOSE YOUR YOUTH, YOU STOP GROWING. THOSE YOUNG YEARS ARE USUALLY WHEN YOU ARE GROWING THE MOST BECAUSE YOU ARE HAVING NEW EXPERIENCES. MY POINT IN LIFE, MY MISSION IN LIFE IS TO HAVE NEW EXPERIENCES OR TAKING OLD EXPERIENCES AND GIVING THEM NEW CONTEXTS BASED ON WHERE I AM AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME IN MY LIFE AND PUSHING THE LINE FORWARD. THAT'S THE REASON WHY I WANT TO BE AROUND Y'ALL AND BEING AROUND YAW. WHAT I LOVE TO WITNESS IS YOUNG PEOPLE SHAKING THE TABLE. I LOVE THAT Y'ALL ARE UPSET AND ANNOYED BY EVERYTHING. I LOVE THAT YOU ARE CHANNELING THE ADULTS AND SAYING WE NEED NEW LANGUAGE AND NEW CODES FORT WAY WE CHOOSE TO LIVE OUR LIVES AND THE IDENTITIES WE POSSESS. IT IS POWERFUL THERE IS GROWTH IN THE DISCOMFORT AROUND WHAT THE ADULTS FEEL IT. HOW IS THE WORLD GOING TO FORWARD IF WE DON'T LISTEN TO OUR YOUNG PEOPLE SAYING THIS IS HOW I WANT TO LIVE MY LIFE AND ENVISION FOR MYSELF AND THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO. IF YOU ARE NOT GOING MOVE OUT OF THE WAY YOU HAVE TO HAVE TO SEE WHAT IT IS FOR THE WORLD WE ARE BUILDING. WE ARE TALKING THIS SMACK ABOUT HOW WE ARE "THE FUTURE" ALLOW THE FRUITION TO COME INTO FRUITION. TO DO SO YOU WILL HAVE TO LET YOUR HANDS UP THE REIGNS. I LOVE IT. I DON'T KNOW. I'M A LITTLE OBSESSED WITH YOU ALL AND EXAMIN ENAMORED. IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU DON'T DRIVE ME UP THE WALL BECAUSE YOU DO. IT IS A PART OF IT. I CAN LOOK THROUGH THE NOISE AND SEE THAT THERE IS SO MUCH GENIUS AND POTENTIAL IN ALL OF YOU. >> COURTNEY: ARE THAT WAS AN AMAZING ANSWER. I THINK ABOUT THIS QUESTION A LOT MYSELF. I WISH I COULD PIPE DOWN AS PART OF WHAT YOU SAID. THANK YOU SO MUCH. I THINK THAT REALLY PUT THING INTO PERSPECTIVE. NOW, WE DO NEED TO MOVE ON TO THE LIVE Q&A BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SENDING IN QUESTIONS FOR YOU. SO OUR FIRST QUESTION COMES FROM DENNIS. SHE ASKED WOULD YOU SHARE SOME CONTEMPORARY AUTHORIZE THAT EXCITE OR INSPIRES YOU? >> OH, YEAH, THERE ARE SO MANY. THERE ARE SO MANY. WHO AM I THINKING ABOUT RIGHT THIS MOMENT? THERE IS A WOMAN SHE HAS A DEBUT NOVEL OUT. HER NAME IS AMBER MCBRI DE. HER NOVEL IS CALLED "ME MOTH" IT IS PROBABLY THE MOST BEAUTIFUL BOOK I HAVE READ IN A WHILE. JUST AMAZING. CHECK OUT AMBER MC BRIDE. CHECK OUT MAHOGANY BROWN. SHE HAS A NEW ONE CALLED "VINYL MOON". CANDICE ELLOW SHE WROTE "EVERYBODY LOOKING". THESE ARE ALL BLACK WOMEN. WE SHOULD BE READING THE WORKS OF BLACK WOMEN. RANDY RADAY EVERYTHING HE HAS WRITTEN I THINK IS GENIUS. I AM THINKING ABOUT CASING CALENDAR, "KING OF THE DRAGON FLIES". GENIUS. I AM THINKING ABOUT TRACY CHI, TRACY BATESEY. GEORGE JOHNSON. I COULD GO ON AND ON. IT'S AN AMAZING TIME FOR LITERATURE. THEN THERE'S JESMAND WARD. WE CATEGORIZE THINGS IN FUNNY WAYS. I'M THE AM BASS FOR FOR YOUNG PEOPLE'S LITERATURE. LITERATURE -- ALL LITERATURE CAN BE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. WE CREATE CATEGORIES. IT IS ALL VERY WEIRD TO ME. THE TRUTH IS SOME OF WOULD YOU LOVE TO READ "SALVAGE THE BONES". SOME OF YOU WOULD OPEN JULIANN TOREZ. HE WROTE "WE THE ANIMALS" BRILLIANT BOOK. I AM READING STEVEN KING "THE BODY" WHICH BECAME "TANNED BY ME". OPEN YOUR MINDS. READ WIDELY. DON'T BE AFRAID TO READ THINGS THAT YOU ARE NOT USED TO REA READING. LOTS OF JAPANESE LITERATURE I LOVE. SHORT STORIES. THERE IS JUST -- READ EVERYTHING. >>> BRANDON: WE HAVE A REQUEST FRIDAY NYA FROM DETROIT. WHAT DO YOU DO TO INSPIRE YOURSELF TO WRITE? >> JASON: FROM DETROIT ONE OF THE BEST CITIES IN AMERICA. ONE OF THE LAST GREAT AMERICAN CITIES. SHOUT OUT TO NADIA. WHAT DO I DO INSPIRE MYSELF? THIS IS THE WAY I THINK ABOUT IT. INSPIRATION IS TYPICALLY A PART OF YOUR IMAGINATION. I'M INSPIRED BY THE THINGS I AM ABLE TO IMAGINE. MY IMAGINATION CAN ONLY BE FUELED THROUGH MY CURIOSITY. SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? THIS MEANS IN ORDER FOR ME TO BE INSPIRED I HAVE TO LIVE AN INSPIRED LIFE. THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN LIVE AN INSPIRED LIFE IS IF YOU ARE CURIOUS ABOUT THE WORLD AROUND YOU. YOU HAVE TO BE WIDE OPEN. WIDE OPEN. I THINK SOMETIMES YOU GROW UP ESPECIALLY DEPENDING DEPENDING ON YOUR ENVIRONMENT. WE ARE TAUGHT TO BE CLOSE AND TO BE PROTECTIVE OF WHAT WE ALLOW INTO YOUR SPIRITS AND MINDS AND BODY. YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOURSELF. YOU DON'T KNOW IF SOMEBODY IS TRYING TO GET YOU. NADIA, YOU ARE FROM THE D. YOU GOT TO MOVE A CERTAIN WAY TO BE PROTECTIVE. WE ALWAYS THINK OF IT PROTECTING THE BODY. YOU ARE CLOSING UP PARTS OF THE MIND IN CERTAIN WAYS BECAUSE THE PERSON THAT YOU NEED TO KNOW OR THE IDEA THAT MIGHT CHANGE YOUR LIFE OR THE EXPERIENCE THAT MIGHT CHANGE YOUR LIFE WILL REQUIRE YOU TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE OPEN AND A LITTLE BIT MORE TRUSTING NOT NECESSARILY ALWAYS OF PEOPLE BUT OF THE PROCESS ITSELF OF LIVING. AND THAT'S THE WAY I THINK ABOUT MY OWN LIFE. I GOT THE TRUST OF PROCESS OF LIVING WHICH MEANS I GOT TO ALLOW MY MIND TO BE OPEN TO RECEIVE WHATEVER IT IS IN THE WORLD. I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT PEOPLE'S DIFFERENT WAYS OF -- DIFFERENT FAITH PRACTICES. THE THING IS, I GET TO CHOOSE WHAT I WANT TO KEEP AND NOT K KEEP. IT DOESN'T HARM ME TO KNOW EVERYTHING. IT IS THIS FOR ME TO KNOW. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO GROW UP IN DETROIT? WHAT CAN I LEARN WHAT IT MEANS TO GROW UP IN DETROIT? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO LEARN AN INSTRUMENT EVEN IF I DON'T GET GOOD AT IT I AM CURIOUS OR MAKE A PIECE OF FURNITURE OR WATCH A PHOTOGRAPH OR WATCH A DOCUMENTARY ON BIRDS OR WHO WAS THE FIST BUS DRIVER IN MY TOWN? HOW DOES DC BECOME DC. DOES HOW THE SUBWAY SYSTEM WORK. WHO STARTED THE SMITHSONIAN? I LIVE A CURIOUS LIFE. ON TOP OF THAT I GET TO BE AROUND YOUNG FOLKS ALL THE TIME. Y'ALL KEEP ME INSPIRED TOO. EVEN OVER THE LAST YEAR WATCHING THE RESILIENCE OF YOUNG PEOPLE PUSH THROUGH COVID, THAT'S INSPIRING. BEING ABLE TO ADAPT TO NEW SCHOOL SYSTEMS. YOUNG FOLKS A LOT OF YOU STRUGGLED WITH SCHOOL AND ZOOM AND THIS THAT AND THE THIRD. BUT WE ARE STILL HERE. THAT'S INSPIRING BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF I COULD HAVE DONE THIS AS A 16-YEAR-OLD. I DON'T KNOW. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? I'M INSPIRED BY THAT TOO TO SEE SOME OF YOUR GRIT AND RESILIENCE THAT WE CLAIM AIN'T THERE. BECAUSE Y'ALL STILL HERE AND YOU MADE IT THROUGH THE MOMENT. THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT KEEP YOU FRESH. >>> COURTNEY: AS A QUICK RESPONSE TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID I COMPLETELY AGREE. APPRECIATE THE LITTLE THINGS AROUND YOU. THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS TO GAIN INSPIRATION FROM IN YOUR LIFE. SO WE HAVE THE NEXT QUESTION FROM JACK. HE SAYS THAT I LOVE YOUR RIGHT, YOUR RIGHT,WRITE, RITE. THEY WERE GREAT TO USE IN THE CLASSROOM. WILL YOU BE DOING ANY MORE OF THESE? >>> JASON: I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S UP TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AND WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. I'M OPEN TO DOING MORE OF THOSE. I ENJOYED DOING THOSE. THE RIGHT, WRITE, WRIGHT. IT WAS 30 PROMPTS ON THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS'S WEBSITE USE QUICK PROMPTS TO GET THE MIND WORKING AND THE IMAGINATION WORKING. THEY ARE BEING USED AS WRITING PROMPTS. THEY ARE JUST IMAGINATION PR PROMPTS, HOW CAN WE MAKE SURE THAT WE CONTINUE TO TURN YOUNG PEOPLE'S MINES ON AND KEEP THEM FIRING OFF SO THEY CAN GROW UP TO BE CREATORS AND NOT JUST WORKERS? THAT'S WHAT I AM ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT. CHECK THOSE OUT. MAYBE THERE WILL BE MORE. WE'LL SEE. WE'LL SEE. >>> BRANDON: I HOPE YOU MAKE SOME MORE. I WANT TO GET A CHANCE TO LOOK AT SOME. THE NEXT QUESTION COMES FROM R ROBIN, YOUR STORY HAS LAYERS AND SYMBOLISM. DO YOU MAKE SOAR READERS SEE IT ALL? >> MOST OF THE BOOKS HAVE READER GUIDES THAT ARE AVAILABLE. IF IT IS A BOOK PUBLISHED BY SIGH ON AND SCHUSTER, THE READER GUIDES ARE AVAILABLE THERE. IF IT IS STAMPED AND PUBLISHED BY LITTLE BROWN YOU CAN ALWAYS FIND THE READERS GUIDE. WHAT I AM ALSO HOPING IF YOU ARE 14 OR 15 AND 16 AND READING NIECE BOOKS, I HOPE YOU GO BACK AND REVISIT THEM WHEN YOU THAT,, 27. THE BOOKS WILL READ DIFFERENT BECAUSE OF THE HIDDEN CODES AND METAPHORS THAT I HAVE WOVEN INTO THE STORY. THAT WAS MY GOAL WRITE THE BOOKS THAT CAN BE READ AT DINNER POINTS IN LIFE AND CAN BE BASED ON YOUR AGE AN EXPERIENCE. READ WHEN YOU ARE 25 OR WHEN YOU ARE 35. GO BACK AND READ "COAST" WHEN YOU ARE 25, 26 THOSE BOOKS SHOULD BE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BOOKS. >>> COURTNEY: WE HAVE AN INTERESTING QUESTION FROM JOHN. WHAT LIT TAR I PILLITTERY PILGRU GONE ON? >>> JASON. THAT'S A GOOD ONE. IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY A LITTERY LITLITER AWRY PILGRIMAG. THIS IS WHERE DANTE WROTE THE INFERNO. THAT'S INTENSE. AT THE SAME TIME I REMEMBER GOING UP THE STREET TO BALTIMORE AND SEEING EDGAR ALLEN POE'S HOUSE. FOR THOSE IN THE DC OR BALT BALTIMORE. BALTIMORE THE CITY OF BALTIMORE HAS A HUGE LITERARY HERITAGE RIGHT THERE. EVERYTHING IS RIGHT THERE. OR IN DC GOING UP FIFTH STREET, HUGHE'S HOUSE. THESE ARE THINGS I CAN DO IN MY OWN CITY IN MY OWN TOWN. IT'S LIKE -- THERE'S TONS OF THAT KIND OF STUFF. LIT AIR PILGRIMAGES MENTALLY, THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER THING. THAT WOULD MEAN THAT FOR ME I HAVE BEEN ON THOSE EVERY TIME I WRITE A BOOK A LITERARY PILGRIMAGE. PILGRIMAGE FOR THOSE LISTENING, IT IS A JOURNEY THAT IS MEANT TO CREATE CLARITY, MAKE THINGS FEEL CLEAR. A JOURNEY WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO SEEK SOMETHING THAT MIGHT NOT BE A PHYSICAL THING BUT IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT IS A LITTLE MORE INTRINSIC. SOMETHING THAT YOU LEARN ABOUT YOURSELF. I THINK EVERY BOOK IS A LITERARY PILGRIMAGE. I THINK ABOUT "LONG WAY DOWN". THE JOURNEY OF SELF THAT I HAD TO GO THROUGH. "BRAVE AS YOU" I HAD TO DIG THROUGH THE CHILDHOOD AND ALL OF THE TIME I SPENT WITH MY BLIND BROTHER WEARING A BLACK SUIT THE PILGRIMAGE OF GRIEVE. IT IS A TWO-PRONG QUESTION AND IT CAN GO EITHER WAY. THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT COME TO MIND AT THE SECOND. >>> BRANDON: I HAD NO IDEA BALTIMORE HAD SO MUCH LITTERY LIT ERAWRY HISTORY. THE NEXT QUESTION SHE WANTS TO KNOW AT WHAT POINT DID YOU FIGURE OUT THAT WRITE FIRST DEGREE WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE? >>> JASON: MAKAYL, I AM TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF WRITING IS WHAT I WANT TO DO WITH MY LIFE. I HAPPEN TO BE HERE AND THINGS ARE WORKING OUT. I WAS A YOUNG PERSON WHEN I REALIZED I LOVED TO WRITE. I WAS 10. I WAS 16 OR 15 YEAR OLD WHEN I START TODAY TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. I WAS PUBLISHED AT 20, 21, THEN I WAS SUCCESS ALL THE 30, 31. THE REASON WHY I AM ALWAYS CAREFUL ABOUT WRITING IS ARE WHAT I WANT TO DO WITH MY LIFE. IT IS WHAT I AM DOING WITH MY LIFE AND I LOVE IT. WHEN I STOP LOVING IT I WILL STOP. I AM MORE THAN WHAT I DO, MA MAKAYLA. SHALL CAREFUL WITH IDENTIFYING OUR IDENTITY WAS WHAT WE DO. I AM A WRITER AS A PROFESSION. I DON'T CONSIDER MYSELF A WRITER AS A HUMAN THAT WOULD MEAN IT IS ATTACHED TO LIKE MY IDENTITY IN A WAY THAT I AM NOT COMFORTABLE WITH. ONE DAY I MIGHT WAKE UP AND I HAVE TOLD EVERYTHING I WANT TO TELL. IF THAT IS THE ONLY THING ATTACHED TO MY IDENTITY WHO AM I WHEN THE WRITING IS OVER. I THINK ABOUT WHITNEY HOUSTON. SHE USED TO CALL HERSELF THE VOICE. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE VOICE G GOES? WHEN THE VOICE GOES WHO AM I N NOW? SO I DON'T KNOW. TODAY I'M EYE WRITER. TOMORROW I MIGHT BE A WRITER. NEXT YEAR I MIGHT NOT BE. WE'LL SEE. >>> COURTNEY: OUR NEXT QUESTION COMES FROM A FIFTH GRADE TEACHER IN SILVER SPRING SHE WANTS TO ASK WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE FOR A 10 OR 11 YEAR OLDS HOPING THEIR WRITING SKILLS? >>> JASON: 10 OR 11 YEAR OLDS HONING THEIR WRITING SKILLS? MY FIRST PIECE OF ADVICE IS FOR THE TEACHER. WE'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE WHEN WE ARE TEACHING LANGUAGE ARTS WE REMEMBER THE ART PART. WE ALWAYS TEACH THE LANGUAGE PART. WE DON'T EVER TEACH THE ART P PART. SOMETIMES YOUNG FOLKS 10, 11 YEARS OLD CREATIVE WRITE FIRST DEGREE STRIPPED AWAY FROM THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE LEARNING HOW TO WRITE BOOK REPORTS WHICH IS IMPORTANT. BUT I'M JUST SAYING THE CREATIVE PART GOES AWAY. FROM THE 10 OR 11 YEAR OLD THAT WANTS TO HONE YOUR WRITE AGO BUILT. UP WITH YOU HAVE TO READ. I'M OBLIGATE TODAY MAKE SURE YOU KNOW THAT. YOU HAVE TO READ. IT IS IMPORTANT FOR YOUR VOCABULARY AND YOUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO TAKE AN IDEA AND PUT IT ON THE PAGE. MORE IMPORTANTLY I THINK YOU SHOULD BE DO IT WITH ALL OF THE RULES. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE RULES. I KNOW YOU ARE ALL WHERE YOU ARE LEARNING TO USE COMMAS AND ALL OF THE PUNCTUATION. IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THOSE RULES. SOMETIMES THOSE RULES CAN GET IN THE WAY OF MAKING SOMETHING CREATIVE AND BRILLIANT AND HONEST AND YOURS. SOMETHING THAT FEELS LIKE YOUR VOICE. I THINK IT'S OKAY FOR YOU TO SOMETIMES FORGET THE RULES AND JUST WRITE IT DOWN. JUST GET IT OUT. WRITE IT IN A WAY THAT MAKES IT FEEL GOOD FOR YOU. NOT FOR YOUR TEACHER AN NOT FOR YOUR MAMA. HOW COULD YOU DO IT IN A WAY THAT FEELS GOOD TO YOU AND SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU? WHAT THAT WILL TEACH YOU IT IS TEACH YOU YOUR OWN VOICE AND HOE YOU YOUR OWN STYLE. IT WILL ALLOW TO YOU EXPRESS YOURSELF FREELY. WE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO PUN PUNCTUA TE IT LATER. GET IT ON THE PAGE. WRITE IN WHATEVER FORM YOU WANT TO WRITE IN. IF IT IS POETRY OR IF IT IS A LIST ALL OF THOSE THINGS MATTER. ALL OF IT STRENGTHENS THE MU MUSCLE. SOMETIMES WE HAVE TO PULL THOSE RULES OUT OF THE WAY THEY CAN BECOME BARRIERS AND WALLS TO CREATIVITY. >>> BRANDON: OUR NEXT QUESTION FROM ROBIN. WHAT MESSAGES FROM WRITERS OR MUSICIAN DO YOU WISH EVERYONE HEARD? >>> BR JASON: THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH GOOD ADVICE. YOU KNOW FOR MUSICIANS AS FAR AS FROM A MUSICIAN STANDPOINT, I BELIEVE IT WAS MILES DAVIS -- I WANT TO SAY IT WAS MILES DAVIS WHO SAID HE LEARNED A LOT TIME AGO HE LEARNED THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BAT NODE WO REPEAT IT HE, HE WOULD REPEAT IT AND IT BECOMES PART OF THE PIECE OR HE WOULD CHANGE THE NOTE THAT CAME AFTER IT WOULD MAKE THAT NOTE THE RI NOTE. IF WE THINK ABOUT LIFE, WHEN WE BECOME OUR TRUE SELVES SOMETIMES THAT FEELS LIKE AN INCORRECT MOVE. SOMETIMES HIGH SCHOOL KIDS ESPECIALLY YOU WANT TO PUT ON SOMETHING THAT REPRESENTS WHO YOU ARE. YOU KNOW IF YOU PUT IT ON THEY WILL TEASE YOU FOR IT. IT MIGHT NOT BE IN STYLE OR FLY. IT AIN'T THIS AND IT AIN'T THAT. IF YOU DO TESTIFY I DAY OR YOU DO IT ONCE A WEEK AND YOU REPEAT IT BECAUSE IT IS WHAT YOU LOVE EVERYBODY WILL COPY YOU. YOU CHANGE THE TONE AND THE TEMPERATURE OF WHAT IS FLY BY BEING CONSISTENT AND HOLDING YOUR BEYOND AND PLAYING THE NOTE AFTER THAT. YOU DON'T LIKE THIS BUT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS IF YOU LOOK AT IT THIS WAY IT IS FLY. I DON'T WANT TO WEAR JORDANS. BECAUSE Y'ALL GOT ON JORDANS. I AM CHOOSING TO STAND OUT AND BE MY OWN WAY. YOU WILL SEE MORE PEOPLE WILL START COPYING YOU ANYWAY. FOR WRITERS THIS IS SO MUCH ADVISORY COULD GIVE. THE ONE THING IS UNDERSTANDING THAT LIKE WRITER IS ALWAYS DIFFICULT. I LOVE THIS BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF DIFFICULTY. YOUNG FOLKS TODAY YOUR GENERATION I LOVE YOU SO MUCH. THE ONE THING THAT SCARES ME IS THAT DIFFICULTY SCARES YOU. AND IT WILL CAUSE YOU TO BACK OUT THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO NOT BACK OUT OF. WRITING IS ALWAYS A DIFFICULT TASK. WRITE FIRST DEGREE HARD FOR EVERYBODY. ALL OF YOU IN SCHOOL THAT ARE STRUGGLING WITH WRITING, YOUR TEACHER ARE STRUGGLING TOO. THEY PROBABLY COULDN'T EVEN WRITE THE ESSAY THEY ARE WRITING TO YOU WRITE OR THEY WOULD HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF HARDSHIP. THAT'S THE TRUTH. THE CHOICES I HAVE TO MAKE EVERY DAY IS TO STEP IN THE DIFFICULTY KNOWING THAT IT IS DIFFICULT AND DOING IT ANY WAY. IF THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO LEARN FROM LIFE THERE ARE MOMENTS IN LIFE THAT ARE DIFFICULT. THE QUESTIONS CAN'T BE IS IT HARD OR IS IT EASY. THE QUESTION HAS TO BE ARE YOU GOING TO DO THIS OR ARE YOU NOT GOING TO DO IT. BECAUSE THE DIFFICULTY PART IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THERE. RIGHT? I THINK THAT'S ALL OF US HAVE TO GET A GRIP ON SOMETIMES LIFE GETS HARD AND I HAD TO CHOSE TO BE TOUGH ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH THE DIFFICULTY OF LIFE AND MOVE FORWARD KNOWING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT DIFFICULTY COULD BE BEAUTY, COULD BE FREEDOM, COULD BE GRACE, COULD BE LOVE, COULD BE FINANCIAL STABILITY. ALL OF THAT. I THINK THAT WOULD BE MY 2 PIECES OF ADVICE. DO YOUR THING AND DON'T BE SCARED OF THE HARD STUFF. >>> COURTNEY: WE HAVE A QUESTION FROM ROBERT. HE SAYS ONE OF HIS FAVORITE BOOKS IS "OH THE PLACES YOU WILL GO" MY GRANDMOTHER RECORDED THIS BEFORE HER DEATH. I THINK HE IS S MENTIONING A SPEECH BEFORE ONE PASSES AWAY. WHAT BOOKS MIGHT BE SUITABLE FOR THIS PURPOSE. >>> JASON: THERE IS A BOOK THAT I WROTE CALLED "FOR EVERYONE". JUST CHECK OUT "FOR EVERYONE" IT IS MEANT FOR THIS VERY THING. FOR TRANSITIONAL MOMENTS IN OUR LIVES. IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT A GIFT IT IS TO BE ALIVE AND HAVE A DREAM EVEN IF THE DREAM DOESN'T COME TRUE. THE GIFT IS IN THE DREAMING ITSELF. IT IS CALLED "FOREVER". I HATE TO DO A SHAMELESS PLUG. IT IS A BOOK WOULD I RECOMMEND FOR THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION. >>> BRANDON: OUR LAST QUESTION WHICH I WOULD LIKE TO ASK MY MYSELF. IN YOUR BOOK "LOOK BOTH WAYS" WHICH I READ A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO ARE THERE ANY EXPERIENCE THAT'S INSPIRED THE STORIES IN THE BOOK? >>> JASON: ALL OF THEM. MAN, LISTEN, I GREW UP -- MAN, YEAH, ALL OF THEM. FROM RUNNING FROM THE DOG, BEING CHASED BY DOGS ALL OF THE TIME IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD, BEING AFRAID THAT MY PARENTS LIKE MY MOM WOULD BE HURT AND WHAT WOULD I DO. STANDING UP FOR MY GAY FRIENDS AS A YOUNG, YOUNG MAN BEFORE WE HAD THE LANGUAGE THAT WE HAD NOW TRYING MY BEST TO BE A GOOD ALLY AND STANDING MY GROUND BUT PU PUSHING AGAINST HATRED AND HO HOMOPHOBIA AS A YOUNG PERSON. BEING PLATOON I CAN FRIENDS WITH MY HOME GIRLS AND BEING SAFE AROUND MY YOUNG WOMEN FRIENDS KNOWING THAT THEY COULD TRUST ME I WASN'T ON NO FUNNY STUFF AND WE COULD JUST BE FRIENDS AND FAMILY WITHOUT ALL OF THE EXTRA NONSENSE THAT YOUNG WOMEN HAVE TO DEAL WITH IN THIS WORLD ALL THE TIME. ALL OF THOSE STORIES, MAN, ARE ROOTED IN MY TRUTHS. ALL OF MY STORIES ARE ROOTED IN MY TRUTHS. THAT'S WHAT I CAN ACCESS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE WHO I AM. I HAVE GOTTEN TO KNOW WHO I AM. I CAN WRITE BOOKS THAT FEEL LIKE THEY ARE HAD B HONEST AND TRUE. THAT'S THE GREATEST GIFT I CAN GIVE EVERYBODY. >>> COURTNEY: IT IS TIME TO WRAP UP FOR Q&A. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE WHO JOINED. I HOPE YOU HAD A MEANINGFUL AND ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE AS WELL AS BRANDON AND I AND HOPEFULLY JASON HAD. >>> JASON: OF COURSE. >>> COURTNEY: CONGRATULATIONS, JASON, ON YOUR THIRD YEAR AS NATIONAL AMBASSADOR FOR YOUNG PEOPLE'S LITERATURE AND TO EVERYONE WHO JOINED TODAY IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KEEP UP WITH JASON AS NATIONAL AMBASSADOR OR TO PARTICIPATE IN HIS PLATFORM VISIT LOC.GOV. >> BRANDON: VIS VOICE LOC.GOVK FEST. >> JASON. TELL ME PEACE OUT. >> >> >> >> SPONSORED BY THE JAMES AND THE INSTITUTION OF MUSEUM AND LIBRARY SERVICES. NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE HUMANITIES. >> WELCOME TO 2021 NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. I'M ROB CASPER. OUR SCHEDULED MODERATOR JEFF PEGUES FOR CBS NEWS WAS CALLED INTO WORK TODAY. SO I WILL BE HERE AS YOUR MODERATOR WITH OUR AMAZED PAIR OF AUTHORIZE. CATHERINE BELTON AUTHOR OF PREPONDERANCE. PU PUTIN'S PEOPLE HOW THE KGB TOOK BACK RUSE A AND THEN TOOK ON THE WEST AND CATHERINE BELTON "BETWEEN TWO FIRES: TRUTH, AMBITION AND COMPROMISE IN PUTIN'S RUSSIA". WELCOME. >> THANKS FOR HAVING US. >> ROB: SO MY FIRST QUESTION IS FOR YOU, CATHERINE, TELL US WHAT PROMPTED YOU TO WRITE THIS BOOK ABOUT SAD MABOUTVLADIMIR PUTIN >> I WAS IN A POSITION OF GREAT PRIVILEGE WHERE WE HAD ACCESS TO OFFICIALS AND RUSSIAN BILLIONAIRES. IT WAS TIME TO LEVERAGE THOSE CONTACTS AND THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT WE HAD BEEN ABLE TO BUILD OVER THE YEARS TO DELVE INTO HOW IT WAS THAT PUTIN CAME TO POWER AND WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO THOSE SECURITY SERVICES AT THE SOVIET COLLAPSE AND HOW IT WAS THEY WERE ABLE TO ACCUMULATE SO MUCH POWER ONCE PUTIN ROSE TO THE PRESIDENCY. THESE WERE THE ASPECTS I WANTED TO SPEND TIME LOOKING INTO. THE RISE AT THE SECURITY SERVICES UNDER P PUTIN. >> ROB: WHAT DO YOU THINK ENABLED PUTIN TO HOLD ON TO POWER SO LONG AND HOW THE SECURITY SERVICES ENABLE THAT HAD? >> CATHERINE. WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A SYS SYSTEMIC POWER GRAB BY THE FORMER KGB, FORMER KGB IN THE KREMLIN. WE HAVE SEEN THE BILLIONAIRES. THEY WIELDED SO MUCH POWER IN BORIS YELSIN'S ADMINISTRATION. HE PUT THE RICHEST AND MOST POWERFUL OF THEM IN JAIL FOR TEN YEARS AND TAKING OVER HIS OIL COMPANY PIECE BY PIECE. IN DOING SO HE WAS GETTING THE WEALTH AND THEY HAD TURN OVER TO THE KREMLIN OR THEY WOULD FACE THE SAME FATE. IT EXTENDED FURTHER INTO THE PRODUCTION ECONOMY. HE PUT HIS ALLIES INTO THE STRATEGIC SECTORS OF THE ECO ECONOMY. WHEN YOU HAVE A LAW ENFORCEMENT AND COURT SYSTEM THAT IS FULLY UNDER CONTROL OF THE KEY OF THE FORMER KGB, THEN ESSENTIALLY EVERYTHING IS NOW AT PUTIN'S COMMAND AS ONE FORMER KGB ALLY SAID PUTIN CAN ACCESS THE ENTIRE CASH OF THE COUNTRY. IT IS QUITE AN EFFECTIVE SYSTEM THAT THEY HAVE MANAGED TO BUILD. IT IS BASED ON FEAR AND IT IS BASED ON HAVING CONTROL OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT. >> ROB: LET ME TURN TO JOSHUA. IN THE AUDIENCE THAT YOU CAN ASK QUESTIONS. IF YOU GO TO OUR WEBSITE OLC OLC.GOV/BOOK FEST AND CLICK ON THE PROGRAM YOU WILL SEE A Q&A. PLEASE DO ASK QUESTIONS WE WILL GET TO YOUR QUESTIONS TOWARDS THE END OF THIS 30 MINUTE SEGMENT. SO JOSHUA, GIVEN WHAT CATHERINE JUST SAID ABOUT SURVIVAL IN RUSSIA, CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT MOTIVATED YOU TO WRITE YOUR BOOK AND HOW THAT SYSTEM WORKS IF YOU DO WANT TO SURVIVE AND EVEN THRIVE IN CONTEMPORARY RUSSIA? >> JOSHUA: WHAT CAME TO INTEREST ME IN MY YEARS OF REPORTING I MOVED TO RUSSIA IN 2012 AND BEGAN REPORTING ON THE COUNTRY AT A TIME OF PROTESTS. THIS WAS IN ADVANCE OF PUTIN'S THIRD PRESIDENTIAL TERM THERE WAS A SEASON OF PROTEST THAT WAS MET HARSHLY. STARTING IN THAT TIME AND MOVING FORWARD I WAS STRUCK BY HOW THE DICHOTOMY THAT I BROUGHT TO THE STORY AND WE SAW REFLECTED IN WESTERN NEWS COVERAGE OF RUSSIA WASN'T ENTIRELY -- DIDN'T ENTIRELY CAPTURE THE FULL OR MOST NUISANCE NATURE OF REALITY HERE. THE STORE ANY RUSSIA ISN'T ALWAYS ONE OF A CRUEL, REP REPRESSIVE STATE VERSUS BRAVE DISSIDENT PROTESTERS OR OPPOSITION MOVEMENT. THAT EXISTS, THAT IS REAL. NOT THAT IT DOESN'T REFLECT REALITY. MOST OF THE REALITY I SERVED IN THE PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED AND THE PEOPLE I MET IN MY PERSONAL TIES IN RUSSIA EXISTED IN THE MIDDLE IN THE GRAY ZONE WHERE PEOPLE ADJUSTED THEIR LIVES, ADJUSTED THEIR AMBITIONS AN GOALS ACCORDING TO THE EVER-CHANGING DEMANDS OF THE STATES, SHIFTING INTERESTS AND REQUIREMENTS OF THE STATE. PEOPLE OFTEN TIMES SET OUT WITH UNDERSTANDABLE AMBITIONS AND GOALS FOR THEMSELVES AND WHAT THEY WANTED TO ACHIEVE IN LIFE. PEOPLE RECOGNIZABLE TO ME, RECOGNIZABLE TO YOU AND TO AMERICAN READERS OF WHAT THEY WANTED TO SEE FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR CAREERS AN THEIR PRIVATE LIVES. BUT THEY HAD TO GO OUT AND CONSTRUCT THOSE REALTIES AN PURSUE THOSE IN THE SHADOW OF A STATE THAT WAS BECOMING INCREASINGLY DEMANDING AND INTRUCE EVER AND REPRESSIVE. IT WAS ARE THAT DANCE OF COMPROMISE THAT FASCINATED ME. I UNDERSTOOD OR COULD SEE MYSELF REFLECTED IN IT. THEY WERE HUMAN UNIVERSAL DILEMMAS THAT PEOPLE OFTEN FA FACED. I WANTED TO BRING THAT WORLD TO LIFE IN A WAY THAT I THOUGHT MAYBE WASN'T ALWAYS REFLECTED IN THE NEWS COVERAGE. I WANTED TO BRING THAT INTERESTING TO ME THAT REALLY FASCINATING GRAY WORLD OF COMPROMISE AND THESE NUISANCE MORALE DILEMMAS TO THE PAGE. TO ANSWER THE SECOND PART OF YOUR QUESTION, I THINK THE PUTIN STATE FROM ITS ONSET 20 PLUS YEARS AGO THE RISE THAT HAVE SYSTEM AND THE CONSTRUCTION THEREAFTER SYSTEM IS SOMETHING THAT CATHERINE SO ELOQUENTLY AND WITH FIRE POWER BRINGS TO LIFE IN HER BOOK. ONE OF THE WAYS IT IS SO DURABLE IT BROUGHT SO MANY PEOPLE ON BOARD. IT FOUND WAYS TO CO-OP SOME PEOPLE. TO ENTICE SOME PEOPLE, WHETHER IT IS BUSINESS PEOPLE OR THEATER DIRECTORS, RULE AN RIGHTS WORKERS. IT HAS FOUND WAYS TO ATTRACT MANY OF THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST INTO WORKING WITH A SYSTEM AND ALONG THE WAY MAKING SMALL COMPROMISES THAT TURN INTO BIG COMPROMISES. THAT ALLOWS OR IS ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT HAS ALLOWED THE P PUTIN SYSTEM TO REMAIN EXTERNALLY STABLE FOR SO LONG. IT HAS BROUGHT SO MANY PEOPLE UNDER ITS BIG TEN AND FOUND WAYS TO KEEP THEM THERE THROUGH CAR CARROT ORSTICK. >> IN YOUR BOOK YOU DELVE INTO DRIVERS. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THOSE FOLKS HOW YOU FOUND THEM AND WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM THEM >> JOSHUA: SOME OF THE PEOPLE I WROTE ABOUT ARE PUBLIC FIGURES. THE HEAD OF CHANNEL 1, THE NATIONAL OR FEDERAL TELEVISION CHANNEL WITH THE MOST REACH IN RUSSIA. SO HIS POSITION MAKES HIM A MINISTER OF PROPAGANDA OF THE RUSSIAN STATE AND CARES OUT THAT DUTY WITH GREAT LOYALTY AND GREAT CREATIVE FLAIR I WOULD S SAY. THAT'S BECAUSE ERNST AT HIS PAST HAD TASTE THAT REALLY SWUNG TOWARD THE OFF BEAT AND LEFT FIELD RAT LEAST IN TERMS COMPARED TO WHAT ELSE WAS AVAILABLE IN SOVIET AND POST SOVIET MASS CULTURE. HE IS A PERSON WITH REFINED CULTURAL AND CREATIVE TASTES WHO USES THE CHANNEL AS A PLATFORM TO INDULGE THOSE TASTES AND AIR PROGRAMMING ON CHANNEL 1 THAT YOU WON'T FIND ON OTHER CHAN HE IS AND YOU WOULDN'T FIND ON CHANNEL 1 IF IT WEREN'T FOR E ERNST IF IT WASN'T FOR HIS CREATIVE VISION. HE ALSO USES HIS CHANNEL AS A VERY WILLING AND EFFECTIVE INSTRUMENT IN PROMULGATING ALL OF THE OFFICIAL MESSAGES AND SIGNALS THAT THE STATE WANTS TO TRANSMIT TO THE PUBLIC AND DOESN'T TRANSMIT WHAT THE STATE DOESN'T WANT THE PUBLIC TO KNOW. HE IS A LOYAL MEMBER OF THE P PUTIN SYSTEM USE BEING THE CHANNEL AND RESOURCE UNDER HIS COMMAND TO INDULGE HIS OWN ODD INTERESTS THAT WOULD NOT BE THE KIND OF THING THAT THE R REST OF RUSSIA WOULD BE INTERESTED IN AIRING OR TRANSMIT TO GO THE PUBLIC OR AIRING AIRING THE IF THE QARGO" PUTTING THAT ON CHANNEL 1. I DON'T THINK THAT IS THE KIND OF THING THAT WOULD YOU SEE ON RUSSIAN STATE TELEVISION. IT IS THE THING THAT ERNST WAS INTERESTED IN. HE WAS ALSO IN CHARGE OF THE SUCCESSFUL OPENING CEREMONIES OF THE OLYMPICS IN 2014. A REALLY RICH PAGEANT THAT DISPLAYED RUSSIAN HISTORY AND RUSSIAN ART AND RUSSIAN SCIENCE THROUGH THE YEARS AND HE DID THAT WITH REALLY GREAT CREATIVE ANDCREATE.HE WAS SOMEONE THAT DS CREATIVE AND AESTETIC VISION AND USE IT'S IN THE SERVICE OF THE KREMLIN AND DOES SO WITH GREAT LOYALTY. >> ROB: CATHERINE, LET'S TURN TO YOU. I'M CURIOUS TO KNOW WHAT YOU WOULD SAY PUTIN'S ULTIMATE AMBITION IS. THIS IS A QUESTION THAT CAME FROM MARION THAT I AM THROWING TO YOU A LITTLE BIT EARLY. I AM ALSO OCCUR TO US UNDERSTAND HOW HIS AMBITIONS MAY HAVE CHANGED AND WHAT THEY MAY BE LOOKING FORWARD FROM NOW. >> CATHERINE: HIS AMBITION BY NOW UNFORTUNATELY IS TO HOLD ON TO POWER. WE SEE THIS IN THE DEEPENING POWER OF HIS REGIME. I AM INTERESTED AS WELL IN JO JOSH'S BOOK VERY MUCH DOES PORTRAY THIS SYSTEM IN WHICH THE WHOLE COHORT OF ELITE HAVE BEEN FORCE TODAY ADAPT TO THIS GROUP OF SECURITY SERVICE MEN WHO HAVE ACQUIRED POWER ARE GRIPPING ONTO IT BY ALL MEN'S NECESSARY. THEY MUST ADAPT TO SURVIVE AND THEY CAN ALSO SEEK OPPORTUNITY THROUGH WORKING THROUGH IN THAT SYSTEM LIKE ERNST WHO JOSH DESCRIBED SO WELL NOW. BUT IT'S KIND OF INTERESTING. I FEEL LIKE THE SYSTEM HAS NOW REACHED THE POINT WHERE YOU HAVE THIS TWO SYSTEMS THE GROUP OF KGB WHO ARE INTEND ON ACQUIRING AND ACCUMULATING POWER AND THIS MORE LIBERAL ELITE TO HANG ON WE WOULD LIKE TO HOLD ON TO OUR WEALTH. WE MUST ADAPT AND SEEK OPPORTUNITIES THROUGH WORKING WITH THESE SECURITY SERVICE MEN WHO HAVE SO MUCH POWER IN THE KREMLIN. FOR A LONG TIME MANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO SO AND ACQUIRE VAST WEALTH THROUGH DOING SO AND THROUGH ADAPTING AND DEMONSTRATING THEIR LOYALTY TO PUTIN'S KREMLIN. NOW WE HAVE REACHED THIS POINT OF INFLECTION WHERE THE ECONOMY HASN'T BEEN GROWING NOW FOR A LONG TIME. PEOPLE'S REAL DISPOSABLE INCOMES ARE DOWN 10% FROM 8 YEARS AGO. I THINK PEOPLE ARE NOW LOOKING AROUND AND WONDERING DO WE SHARE PUTIN'S VISION? PUTIN HAS BEEN CLAIMING THIS VISION OF RETURNING RUSSIA TO THE GREAT POWER STATUS THAT HE WANTS TO ATTACK THE WEST AS HE SEES AS THE MAIN ADVERSARY AND DO THROUGH THROUGH UNDERMINING DEMOCRACY AND BOOSTING RUSSIA'S STAT YOU ARE. IT SEEMS THE PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR THE ELITE IN MOSCOW ARE NO LONGER ON BOARD WITH THIS. YOU CAN SEE THEM BEGINNING TO CHAFE AT THE INCREASING REACH OF THE SECURITY SERVICES. AS THE ECONOMY STOPS GROWING THE PIE IS SMALLER AND THOSE WHO BENT THIS WAY AND THAT TO FIT IN THE WITH THE KREMLIN AND WORK AND DO FAVORS FOR THE KREMLIN ARE FINDING THAT THEIR BUSINESSES ARE BEING SEIZED FROM THEM TOO. THAT IT IS NOT ENOUGH ANY MORE TO BE JUST LOYAL TO THE PUTIN REGIME YOU HAVE TO BE ONE OF THEM. YOU HAVE TO BE ONE OF PUTIN'S CLOSEST ALLIES FROM KGB. YOU HAVE TO KNOW HIM PERSONALLY IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR BUSINESS SAFE. THERE'S A A WHOLE STRING OF BUSINESSES AND BANKS THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN OVER IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS THAT WERE OWNED BY PRECISELY THESE TYPE OF PEOPLE THAT JOSHUA HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING THE ONES THAT TRIED TO ADAPT AND FIT INTO THE SY SYSTEM. WE ARE AT THIS INTERESTING INFLECTION PERIOD IT. HAS BEEN STABLE NOW THERE ARE GROWING NUMBERS OF THE ELITE WHO MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SEE WAYS TO SURVIVE ANY MORE AND FIT INTO THE SY SYSTEM. I THINK PUTIN ALSO FEELS THAT AND YOU CAN SEE THE GROWING PARANOIA OF THE REGIME. YOU HAVE SEEN THAT IN WHAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR WITH HIS POISONING THE KREMLIN WAS LOOKING WITH OTHER GREAT AFFAIR AT THE EVENTS WHERE THEY ARE -- THE POPULATION SHED ITS FEAR OF THE SECURITY FIERCES AND WEAPON AGAINST HIS REELECTION. PUTIN IS FACING PROTESTS IN THE FAR EAST. HE WAS BUSY KICKING UP RESISTANCE IN CYBER I CAN'T. SYBERIA AND JAILEDWHEN HE RETUR. WE HAVE SEEN THIS VERY BRUTAL CRACK DOWN ON THE PROTEST THAT FOLLOWED HIS JAI JAILING. IT WAS THE CASE IN PREVIOUS YEARS THE KREMLIN ADAPT ITS RESPONSE TO FIT IN WITH THE MORE LIBERAL MOSCOW ELITE AND ADAPT TO THEIR WISHES. THEY ARE NO LONGER PAYING LIP SERVICE TO TRYING TO HAVE ABDOMEN IMAGE ANYTHING DEMOCRATIC ANY MORE. ALL WE HAVE SEEN IS THIS CRACK DOWN AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO SEE THAT FOLLOWING THE ELECTIONS WHERE THEY HAVE ERADICATED ANY CHANCE FOR THE OPPOSITION TO MOVE IN ON THEIR POWER. SO I THINK UNFORTUNATELY PUTIN HAS ONE AIM IN LIFE THAT IS TO HOLD ON TO POWER. I THINK HE WOULD CONTINUE TO DIVIDE AND DISRUPT THE WEST. OBVIOUSLY HE FACES A BIT OF A DIFFERENT PICTURE NOW THAT THERE IS JOE BIDEN IN THE U.S. HE IS STILL MAKING SOME OVER WHICH ARES TO THE KREMLIN FOLLOWING THE GENEVA SUMMIT IN JUNE. WE HAVE TO SEE. BUT I AM AFRAID IT IS QUITE SIMPLE FOR PUTIN NOW HE JUST WANTS POWER. WHEN HE FIRST CAME TO THE PRESIDENCY HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A LITTLE BIT RELUCTANT PRESIDENT. BUT THE SECURITY SERVICE MEN AROUND HIM CERTAINLY WANTED TO MAKE SURE HE HELD ON TO POWER AND ACCUMULATED IT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND TO A DEGREE STABILITY WOULD BE RETURNED TO THE RUSSIAN POLITICAL SCENE AND THEN THEY COULD REMOVE ALL OPPOSITION. ONCE THAT REACHED A CRITICAL MASS. ONCE THE COMMAND OVER THE ECONOMY CREATED A CRITICAL ASH THEY WERE TO BEGIN UNDERMINING DEMOCRACY IN THE WEST AND CORRUPTING OFFICIALS AS WE HAVE SEEN IN WHAT HAPPENED WITH TRUMP IN THE U.S. AND THE FUND FUNDINN THE FAR LEFT AND FAR RIGHT ACROSS EUROPE. SO THE AMBITIONS OF PUTIN AND HIS MEN DID CHANGE AND EXPAND IN TRYING TO BOOST RUSSIA'S STANDING ON THE WORLD STAGE NOT THROUGH CREATING A COMPETITIVE ECONOMY BUT UNDERMINE RIFLES. NOW IT IS ALL ABOUT HOLDING ON TO POWER. >> ROB: THANK YOU FOR THAT. BEFORE I TURN TO MY FOR BOTH OF YOU I WANT TO LET OUR AUDIENCE KNOW IN ADDITION TO ASKING QUESTIONS IN OUR CHAT ON LO LOC.GOV/BOOK FEST YOU CAN SEE THE CONNECTION WE ARE MAKING TO THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS COLLECTION WE HAVE A LINK YOU CAN CLICK ON TO READ MORE ABOUT PUTIN'S 2008 ELECTION IN THE LIBRARY'S RUSSIANY ELECTION. JACK ASKS WHAT YOU THINK AFTER PUTIN. HE CAN'T LIVE FOREVER. HE ISN'T GROOMING ANYONE IN PARTICULAR TO FOLLOW HIM. WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN TERMS OF LEADERSHIP AND IN TERMS OF THE COUNTRY? >> JEFF: >> JOSH A. THE PLAN IS TO PROJECT OUTWARDLY THE PUBLIC AT LARGE AND WESTERN GOVERNMENTS THAT PUTIN IS HERE TO STAY AND KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD AS LONG AS POSSIBLE TO AVOID THAT KIND OF DISCUSSION. THAT IS A CONVERSATION HE DOESN'T WANT TO HAPPEN INSIDE HIS OWN PALACE QUARTERS. HE DOESN'T WANT RUSSIAN ELITE TO BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT A POST P PUTIN FEATURE THAT WOULD MAKE HIM A LAME DUCK. IT WOULD SEE HIS POWERLESS EN IMMEDIATELY WERE PEOPLE TO LOOK TOWARDS THE FUTURE AND WHAT FUTURE CENTERS OF POWER MIGHT BE. NOVEMBER DOES HE WANT THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC TO BEGIN TO CONTEMPLATE A POST PUTIN FUTURE. HE WANTS TO BE THE FIGURE HEAD AND HIS CHIEF ARBITOR OF THE CLANS AND FACTIONS THAT CATHERINE HAS TALKED ABOUT IN HER BOOK. SO ALL RESOURCES HAVE BEEN DIRECTED TOWARDS EXACTLY THIS QUESTION. WE SAW THIS WITH LAST SUMMER'S CONSTITUTIONAL REFERENDUM. THE POINT OF WHICH REALLY WAS TO GIVE PUTIN THE RIGHT TO RETURN AGAIN IN 2024 AND 2030 AFTER THAT. SO AT LEAST PROJECTING THE AIR OF INTERNAL QUESTION HOLD ON POWER IS FUNDAMENTAL TO PUTIN COPING POWER TODAY. IT ALLOWS PUTIN TO RETAIN POWER IN THE REAR AND NOW IN THE RUSSIAN POLITICAL SYSTEM SURVIVING UNTIL TOMORROW IS THE CHIEF GOAL IT. TENDS TO BE A SYSTEM, A TACTICAL SYSTEM NOT A STRATEGIC ONE. FOR PUTIN TO SURVIVE ANOTHER NIGHT IN THE KREMLIN HE NEEDS THE ELITE AROUND THEM AND THE PUBLIC AT LARGE TO THINK HE WILL BE HERE 5, 10 HOW MANY MORE YEARS. WITH THAT SAID BEFORE TURNING IT OVER TO CATHERINE AN LISTEN TO GO WHAT SHE MIGHT SAY ABOUT THIS HYPOTHETICAL. FOR REASONS OF BIOLOGY IF NOT POLITICS THERE WILL BE A POST PUTIN FUTURE FOR RUSSIA AT SOME POINT. THE QUESTION I AM INTERESTED IN AND I AGGRESSION IN THE LAST CHAPTER OF THE BOOK WHAT WILL THIS GENERATIONAL TRANSITION THAT THE PASSAGE OF PUTIN FROM OFFICE IT WON'T BE PUTIL LEADING THE POLITICAL SCENE IT WILL BE THIS GENERATION OF LARGELY MEN FIRST AND FOR MOST WHO OCCUPY POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY FADE FROM THE POLITICAL STAGE, THE SO-CALLED PUTIN GENERATION THE PEOPLE THAT WERE BORN UNDER THE PUTIN'S PRESIDENCY. IT IS 20 SOME YEARS THERE ARE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT HAVE ONLY KNOWN PUTIN AS THEIR LOADER. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY ASCEND TO POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE ECONOMY, BUSINESS SOCIETY? WILL THEY HAVE THE SAME HABITS AND ADAPTIVE HABITS OF COMPROMISE THOSE THAT I WRITE ABOUT IN MY BOOK? WILL THEY BE AS WILLING OR TH THINKING FIRST AND FOR MOST HOW TO ATTACH THEMSELVES AND INSERT THEMSELVES AND ADAPT TO THE RULES OF THE GAME AND TO TRY TO BENEFIT THOSE RULES OF THE GAME? WILL THEY HAVE A MORE DEMANDING ATTITUDE? WILL THEY INSIST THAT THE SYSTEM SOMEHOW REFLECTS THEIR VALUES AND THEIR IDEALS RATHER THAN ADAPTING THEMSELVES TO THE SYSTEM? WILL THEY EXPECT THE SYSTEM TO ADAPT ITSELF TO THEM? THAT IS AN OPEN QUESTION AS THE PUTIN GENERATION IS YOUNG. HUMAN BIOLOGY AT SOME POINT P PUTIN HIS GENERATION WILL FADE FROM THE SCENE AND THE YOUNGER GENERATION WILL TAKE OVER. IT WILL BE AN INTERESTING EXPERIMENT TO SEE WHERE THEY CAN TRANSEND THE HABITS OF MIND AND POLITICAL HABITS IN WAYS OF OPERATING THAT CAME OUT OF THE LAST YEARS OF THE SOVIET SYSTEM, THE DOUBLE THINK AND THE CYNICISM THAT WERE VERY MUCH THE WAY OF THE POST SOVIET YEARS THIS IS A GENERATION THAT DOESN'T HAVE THAT FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE. THEY CONDUCT THEMSELVES DIFFERENTLY? THAT IS A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION THAT WE WILL ONLY SEE THE ANSWER TO WHEN IT HAPPENS. IT IS A GAME THAT HAS TO RUN ITSELF OUT FOR US TO UNDERSTAND THE OUTCOME. >> ROB: CATHERINE, WHAT DO YOU THINK? IN TERMS OF THE SECURITY APPARATUS THAT HAS CONTROLLED SO MUCH OF RUSSIA FOR SO LONG. >> CATHERINE: THIS IS EXACTLY THE KEY QUESTION THE ONE THAT JOSH IS ASKING. I GUESS -- IN A WHILE IT IS SPLIT BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND YOU HAVE A WHOLE NEW GENERATION THAT HAS ONLY KNOWN PUTIN. WHO HAVE ONLY KNOWN THE PUTIN ERA AND GROWN UP IN THE RANKS THE SECURITY SERVICES ARE INCREDIBLY MOTIVATED AND WELL EDUCATED. THEY ALSO TO SEE THE WEST AS THE MAIN ENEMY AND THEY HAVE GROWN UP IN AN ERA WHERE THE SECURITY SERVICES HAVE HAD THIS ALL ENCOMPASSING REACH AND POWER. SO IN A WAY THAT'S QUITE DANGEROUS IF ONE OF THEM SAY WERE TO COME TO POWER. WE HAVE SEEN SITUATIONS WHERE THE FSB OR ON ARE MEMBERS OF THEIR COHORT CAN GO IN AND TAKE OVER BUSINESSES, RAID THEM AND CARVE UP THE PROCEEDS FOR THEMSELVES WITHOUT ANY OVERSIGHT OR SCRUTINY OR ANY RESISTANCE FROM SOCIETY. IF IT IS ONE OF THAT CONTINGENT THAT COMES TO POWER WE WILL BE IN TROUBLE. IF YOU LOOK AT AT TIDE AC ACROSS THE POPULATION, THEN I MEAN THERE WAS A RECENT POLE THAT SHOWED THAT ALMOST A MAJORITY 44% WANTED RUSSIA TO TREAT THE WEST AS AN ALLY RATHER ARE THAN A RIFLE. IT WAS A MUCH SMALLER NUMBER 33% THAT WANTED THE RUSSIAN REGIME TO TREAT THE WEST AS A RIFLE. SO ATTITUDES ARE CHANGING IN THE WIDER POPULATION. IT DEPENDS HOW DOPE NOW IS THE GRIP ON POWER BY THE SECURITY SERVICES. CERTAINLY PUT IN AND THOSE AROUND HIM IN THE KREMLIN IN AN EFFORT TO ENSURE SOME KIND OF STABILITY ONCE THE BIOLOGICAL CLOCK RUNS OUT ON THEM THEY HAVE BEEN PROMOTING THEIR OWN CHILDREN TO POSITIONS OF IMPORTANCE IN THE ECONOMY AND THE POWER STRUCTURES THEMSELVES. THEIR SOBS ARE IN CHARGE OF THE COUNTRY'S BIGGEST BANKS AND THE BIG STATE INSTITUTIONS WITHOUT SOME OF THEM HAVING ANY BUSINESS EXPERIENCE AT ALL. THEY HAVE BEEN GETTING RAPID GROOMING IN THESE POSITIONS. SO THEY ARE TRYING TO SORT OF CREATE THIS TRANSFER FROM WITHIN THEIR OWN RANKS. IF THAT HAPPENS AGAIN, THAT IS NOT GREAT FOR THE COUNTRY. BUT IT MAY BE THAT WE SEE SOMEBODY MORE MODERATE FROM THE MOSCOW ELITE WHO IS INTENT ON REESTABLISHING RELATIONS FROM THE WEST AND THAT WE WILL SEE ONE OF THESE SWINGS WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN THE HISTORY OF RUSSIA OVER THE CENTURIES THERE CAN BE QUITE SHARP SWINGS FROM AN ANTIWESTERN SYSTEMS TO MORE LIBERAL PRO WESTERN ONES. THEY DO KIND OF OCCUR WITH QUITE REGULARITY. THE COUNTRIES NEVER SEEM TO FIND ANYTHING IN BETWEEN YET. >> ROB: FOR THE LAST QUESTION I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR COMMENT, CATHERINE, BEFORE WE STARTED THIS SECTION THAT RUSSIA FOLLOWS YOU. WHAT HAS IT MEANT TO WRITE ABOUT RUSSIA FROM INSIDE FROM RUSSIA AND FROM THE WEST? >> CATHERINE: I LEFT RUSSIA IN THE SUMMER OF 2014. I LEFT TO FINISH MY BOOK AND IT WAS THE CASE THEN THAT MANY OF MY SOURCES IN MOSCOW WERE MORE AND MORE UNCOMFORTABLE SPEAKING ME THERE BECAUSE THE UKRAINE CRISIS WAS AT THE HEIGHT. THE WEST IMPOSED SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA. I MOVED BACK TO LONDON THINKING I WOULD BE ABLE TO FINISH THE BOOK QUICKLY. THE STORY HAD REALLY FOLLOWED ME INTO THE WEST. THIS WAS A STAGE THE PUTIN REGIME HAS ACCUMULATED SO MANY POWER IT WAS NOW SEEKING TO ACQUIRE INFLUENCE IN THE WEST AND BEGIN ITS INFLUENCE CAMPAIGN TO UNDERMINE DEMOCRACIES IN THE WEST AND STOKE THE RISE OF THE FAR LEFT AND RIGHT. IT BECAME A NEVER ENDING STORY. I COULDN'T LEAVE AND WRITE UP THE NOTES THAT I HAD FROM MY TIME REPORTING IN RUSSIA. IT BECAME A MUCH BIGGER STORY ABOUT HOW RUSSIA WAS SEEK TO GO EXPAND ITS INFLUENCE BEYOND ITS BORDERS AND INDEED MANY OF MY SOURCES ALSO FOLLOWED ME INTO LONDON WHETHER INTO FORCED EX EXCILE WHETHER THEY WERE VISITING AN MORE FREE TO SPOKE WITHOUT LOOKING OVER THEIR SHOULDERS. THE STORY DOES FOLLOW YOU WHETHER THAT IS FOR GOOD OR FOR BAD. >> ROB: JOSHUA, WHAT ABOUT YOU? >> JOSH A. I HAVE BEEN REALLY PASSIONATE TODAY FOLLOW THE CHARACTERS IN MY BOOK NOT JUST THE PERIOD I WAS REPORTING ON THEM AND WRITING THE BOOK BUT AFTER. IT'S OF COURSE EXPECT THAT HAD SOMETHING LIKE THIS, THE MORALE GRAY ZONE OF COMPROMISE WITH THE PUTIN SYSTEM ISRY PRESSIVE AND INFLEXIBLE. THAT IS NOT A PROCESS THAT HAS AN END POINT IT TO IT. THE THEATER DIRECTOR WHO IS ONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS OF MY BOOK SOMEONE A THEATER DIRECTOR, RENOUNCED IN MOSCOW FOR HIS CUTTING EDGE PRODUCTIONS FOR A WHILE HE WAS ABLE TO BASK IN THE STATE EVEN THOUGH HE IS SOMEONE WITH LIBERAL LEAKS THAT CREATE WORKS. NONETHELESS HE WAS ABLE TO RECEIVE STATE SUPPORT FOR THAT WORK AT A TIME WHEN THE STATE WAS INTERESTED TO HAVE AN APPEARANCE OF SUPPORTING OR FLIGFLIGHTING WITH. HE FELL OUT OF THE STATE'S FAME OR AFTER THE UKRAINE STAND OFF AND FELL FROM GRACE. HE WAS EVENTUALLY CHARGED WITH FRAUD AND IN A POLITICALLY MOTIVATED CASE TELL ME HE WIGGED OUT OF THOSE FRAUD CHARGES AND HE WAS RELEASED FIST ON HOUSE A RECEIPT AND GIVEN A SUSPENDED SENTENCE THAT SEEMED TO SUGGEST I WAS IN THE STATE'S FAVOR. AFTER ALL OF THAT AFTER THE BOOK CAME OUT HE WAS REMOVED FROM HIS POST AS THE HEAD OF A HIGH PROFILE THEATER IN MOSCOW. SOMEONE WHO HAD FOUND A WAY TO I OBJECT CERTIFICATE THEMSELF INTO THE PUTIN SYSTEM AND THEN IN AND OUT AGAIN FOLLOWING THE TWIST AND TURNS OF THE CHARACTERS IN THE BOOK IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN REALLY FASCINATING TO ME. I THINK IT IS A REFLECTION OF WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE PUTIN SYSTEM AT LARGE. >> WELL THANKS TO YOU BOTH. UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE OUT OF T TIME. THERE MANY MORE QUESTIONS I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU ANSWER. BUT INSTEAD I JUST WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO BOTH OF YOU, DAMAGE DAMAGE THE AUTHOR OF PREPONDERANCE. PUTI'S PEOPLE HOW THE KGB TOOK BACK RUSSIA AND THEN TOOK ON THE W WEST. AND JOSHUA YAFFA AUTHOR OF "BETWEEN TWO FIRES: TRUTH, AMBITION AND COMPROMISE IN PUTIN'S RUSSIA". FOLLOW US AT LOC.GOV SLASH BOOK FESTIVAL. >> >> >> >> GAL B>> SPONSORED BY THE JAMS MADISON CONSULT. >> WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. I AM AN EDITOR AT THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW. I AM THRILLED TO BE HERE TODAY TO TALK WITH DAN KAHNEMAN AND CASS SUNSTEIN ABOUT THEIR NEW BOOK RAILROAD. BOOK "NOISE: A FLAW IN JUDG JUDGMENT". SO LET'S GET RIGHT INTO IT WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME. I WANT TO ASK FIRST PROBABLY THE MOST ESSENTIAL QUESTION. CAS YCAS, YOU CAN TAKE THE FIRS. WHAT IS NOISE AND HOW DOES IT GET IN THE WAY OF DECISION MAKING? IF YOU GIVE US THE WONDERFUL EXAMPLES YOU HAVE IN THE BOOK TO HELP US UNDERSTAND, THAT WOULD BE GREAT. >>. >> IF YOU GO TO A DOCTOR WHN SHE IS ENTER ENERGETIC LET'S DON OF TESTS YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. WHEN SHE IS TIRED AT THE END OF THE WEEKEND OF THE DAY, GO HOME THERE IS NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. THATHAT IS A CASE OF NOISE. WHETHER YOU GET LET'S 5 YEARS IN JAIL AS A SENTENCE OR A MONTH IN JAIL AS A SENTENCE DEPENDS ON A LOTTERY, WHO IS THETH &J WHO IS ASSIGNED TO SENTENCE YOU. NOISE IS A CASE WHERE YOU GET HIRED WITH ENTHUSIASM BY A FIRM TO WHICH YOU HAVE APPLIED. SOMEONE THAT IS JUST LIKE YOU DOESN'T GET HIRED JUST BECAUSE THAT'S ANOTHER PERSON WHO LET'S SAY HAVE A DIFFERENT NOISY RELATIONSHIP TO YOU COMPARED TO THE FIRST. SO UNWANTED VARIABILITY IN JUDGMENT WITHIN OURSELVES IS ALL OVER THE PLACE AND IN SYSTEMS IT IS RAMPENT AND IT IS A SOURCE OF ERROR AND INEQUALITY. >> DAN, YOU CAN TAKE THIS ONE. ISN'T IT ALWAYS TRUE THAT WILL BE VARIABILITY AND CONSISTENCY BECAUSE WE ARE HUMAN? HOW DO YOU WISH BETWEEN THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE SYSTEMIC. DOCTORS ARE MORE LIKELY TO ORDER CANCER SCREENINGS THEY SEE EARLY IN THE MORNING LAND LATE IN THE AFTERNOON. ONCE YOU FIGURE OUT THAT IS THE CASE YOU CAN BALANCE THAT. YOU CAN FIND A WAY TO SOLVE THAT PROBLEM. BUT THEN EACH DOCTOR COMES WITH THEIR BIAS AND WORLD VIEW THAT SEEMS NOT SO MUCH A SYSTEMIC THING BUT SUBJECTIVITY. HOW DO YOU DISTINGUISH WHAT IS THE NOISE THAT CAN BE DEALT WITH VERSUS THE NOISE THAT IS HUMAN BEINGS BEING HUMAN? DANIEL, DO YOU WANT TO ANSWER THAT ONE? >> DANIEL: THERE IS GOING TO BE VARIABILITY WHEN THERE IS JUDGMENT. OUR STATEMENT ON THAT IS THAT WHEREVER THERE IS JUDGMENT THERE IS NOISE. WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT THERE IS MORE NOISE THAN YOU THINK BECAUSE THE REASON WE WROTE THE BOOK IS THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE JUDGMENTS THAT PEOPLE MAKE WHEN THEY ARE FAIRLY COMPLEX JUDGMENTS NOT ELEMENTARY, BY JUDGMENT I MEAN THEY BECOME COMPUTED. THERE IS A REASONABLE ANSWER BUT NO EXPECTATION OF PERFECT AGREEMENT. YOU WILL FIND MORE DISAGREEMENT THAN EXPECTED. WHETHER IT IS HUMAN OR NOT OF COURSE IT IS HUMAN. BUT THAT'S NO EXCUSE WHEN YOU HAVE A JUDICIAL SYSTEM YOU WOULD WANT THE JUDGES WHO ARE PART OF THE SYSTEM TO SPEAK IN ONE VO VOICE. THE INSURANCE COMPANY WOULD LIKE ITS UNDERWRITERS TO SPEAK IN ONE VOICE. SIMILARLY, THE HOSPITAL WANTS THE PHYS PHYSICIANS IN THE ER TO SPEAK IN ONE VOICE SO THAT THE INDIVIDUAL WHO MAKES THE JUDGE MINT AND THE PARTICULAR STATE OF MIND THAT THAT INDIVIDUAL IS, IF THESE ARE MATERIAL, IF THESE HAVE AN AFFECT ON THE DECISION THAT IS MADE, THAT IS UNDESIRABLE. THAT'S UNWANTED. THIS IS THE NOISE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. >> GAL: YOU MAKE A DISTINCTION IN THE BOOK BETWEEN OCCASION NOISE AND SYSTEM NOISE. CASS, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THOSE? >> CASS: YES. OCEAN NOISE MIGHT BE WHEN YOU ARE VERY EXCITED AND HAPPY ABOUT SOMETHING YOU WILL SAY I WANT TO TAKE THE JOB. I WANT TO BUY THE HOUSE, I WANT TO GO ON THE DATE. WHEN YOU ARE NOT SO EXCITED BECAUSE LET'S SAY YOUR FAVORITE SPORTS TEAM LOST OR THE WEATHER IS TERRIBLE OUTSIDE YOU WILL SAY I SHOULDN'T BOY THAT HOUSE OR I SHUN GO ON THAT DATE OR I SHUN TAKE THAT JOB. SO OCCASION NOISE MEANS THAT SMALL FEATURES IN THE BACKGROUND OFTEN WHETHER THE BOSTON RED SOX WON WHICH EVERYONE SHOULD CARE ABOUT COULD AFFECT YOUR JUDGMENT TO THINGS THAT ARE UNRELATED TO BASEBALL LIKE WHAT YOU WILL DO WITH YOUR LIFE IN THE NEXT MONTH OR WHAT YOUR JUDGMENT IS ABOUT SOMETHING THAT REALLY MATTERS. THAT'S OCCASION NOISE. SYSTEM NOISE IS THE NOISE THAT GOES ACROSS SYSTEMS WHEN YOU MAY HAVE LET'S SAY ONE DOCTOR WHO IS REALLY GREAT AND ORDERS A TON OF TESTS AND TENDS TO OVER DIAGNOSIS. ANOTHER DOCTOR WHO IS ALSO REALLY GREAT BUT TENDS TO UNDER DIAGNOSIS AND IS REALLY WORRIED ABOUT PUTTING PEOPLE THROUGH THE RINGER. SO A HOSPITAL AS A SYSTEM HOSPITAL WILL BE NOISY IF THERE IS A LOTTERY WHO IS THE DOCTOR. LEVEL MEANS MEANS A DEGREE OF SEVERITY ON THE PART OF ONE SET OF HANGING JUDGES AND LENIENT JUDGES THAT WERE VERY GENEROUS TO CRIMINAL DEFENDANTS THAT CAN LEAD TO GREAT DIPS WITHIN THE SYSTEM OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE. THIS IS IN BUSINESS WITH RESPECT TO HIRING, PROMOTING, RECRUITING ET CETERA. THE PROBLEM OF SYSTEM NOISE ISN'T WHAT PRINCIPALLY CONCERNS US. OCEAN NOISE IS REALLY FINE. >>> GAL: I WANT TO REMIND VIEWERS YOU CAN ASK QUESTIONS IN THE Q&A FUNCTION. YOU ARE GETTING AT THIS POINT I HAVE MAYBE TO PIN IT A LITTLE BIT MORE CLEARLY ON THE WALL. WHY IS CONSISTENCY POSH? MORE SPECIFICALLY WHAT FIELDS OF OUR LIFE ARE CONSISTENCY IMPORTANT? I CAN IMAGINE WE CAN GET TO THIS THROUGH AN EXTREME OF CONSISTENCY AND UNIF UNIFORMITY. IN WHAT AREAS OF OUR LIFE, YOU HAVE BEGUN TO MENTION THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, MAYBE EDUCATION. WHERE DO WE REALLY NEED TO SUSS OUT THIS PROBLEM OF NOISE? DANIEL, DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT ONE? >> DANIEL: WELL, THE ANSWER IS IN PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENTS WHEN THERE IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS MAKING JUDGMENTS NOISE IS TRULY UNDESIRABLE. THIS IS TRUE NOT ONLY IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM AND MEDICAL SYSTEM IT IS TRUE IN THE PATENT SYSTEM. IT IS TRUE IN HIRING, EVAL EVALUATION. IT IS TRUE ACTUALLY IN FINGERPRINT READING BECAUSE THERE IS NOISE EVEN THERE. SO THE ANSWER IS WHEREVER THERE IS JUDGMENT THERE IS NOISE. WE DO NOT MIND DIVERSITY AND WE WELCOME DIVERSITY IN MANY SITUATIONS. WE DON'T CARE. WE WANT VARIABLES. WE DON'T WANT ALL OF OUR BOOK CRITICS TO AGREE AND ALL OF OUR FILM CRITIC TO AGREE. WE WANT VARIABILITY WHEN CREATIVITY IS REQUIRE. WE WANT VARIABILITY IN THE PROCESS OF REACHING A DECISION. SO IF YOU HAVE A GROUP REACHING A JUDGMENT A COMMON JUDGMENT, WE WELCOME DIVERSITY IN THAT DISCUSSION. BUT WE WOULD WANT THE CONCLUSIONS TO BE IN GENERAL NOT NOISY. THAT IS TRUE REALLY WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENTS IN MOST PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENTS VARIABILITY SYSTEM NOISE IS GOING TO BE NOTICED. >> GAL: SO LET'S GET TO THE SOLUTION PART OF THIS, CASS WHAT IS THE NOTION OF DECISION HYGIENE AN GIVE US EXAMPLES HOW DO WE CLEAN UP THE NOISE IN THESE VARIOUS FIELDS? >> CASS: LET'S BACK INTO THAT. SO THE CHARACTER IN THIS PARTICULAR PLAY WE HAVEN'T MENTIONED YET IS BIASED. AND BIAS IS A LITTLE BIT OF THE CHARISMATIC PERFORMER THE TAYLOR SWIFT WHEREAS NOISE WE WON'T NAME A VERY UNCHARISMATIC ROCK STAR THAT YOU NEVER HEARD OF BECAUSE THEY DON'T GET ATTE ATTENTION. BIAS IS A SYSTEMATIC BIAS FROM WHAT IS RIGHT. NOISE EYE SCALE IS ONE THAT IS ALL OVER THE PLACE THAT SOMETIMES SHOWS YOU AS LIGHTER AND SOMETIMES HEAVIER THAN YOU ARE. WITH RESPECT TO DECISION HYGIENE WHICH IS THE SET OF REMEDIES WE HAVE FOR THE PROBLEM OF NOISE, DECISION HYGIENE HELPS WITH B BIAS. IT COUNTER ACTS BIAS AS WELL AS NOISE. LET'S GIVE A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES. DECISION HYGIENE IS A WAY OF WASHING JUDGMENTS SO THAT IT COME BATS THINGS YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY IN ADVANCE. ONE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO HAVE GUIDELINES. THEY CUT NOISE DRAMATICALLY. IF THEY ARE GOOD THEY WILL CUT BIAS TOO. WHEN A LITTLE KID IS BORN IT IS AN APGAR SCORE. IT CUTS NOISE AND BIAS SIMULTANEOUS LIMIT THE SECOND THING YOU CAN DO IS REALLY I AM IS HE WILL AND IN MEDICINE WE SEE IT WHICH IS ASK FOR A SECOND OPINION AND AGGREGATE THE TWO. IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN TO AGRICULTURE GATE THAT'S BETTER. IF YOU GET A BUNCH OF INDEPENDENCE JUDGMENTS AND ADD THEM UP, THE AVERAGE WILL BE MUCH MORE LESS THAN IF YOU TAKE EACH ONE INDIVIDUALLY AND UNDER REASONABLY PERVASIVE CIRCUMSTANCES IF YOU DO THAT YOU ARE GOING CUT BIAS AS WELL. >> >> GAL: DANIEL CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO DECOMPOSE A DECISION? >> DANIEL: AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE A VERY ELEMENTARY EXAMPLE WOULD BE WHEN YOU ARE HIRING FOR A PARTICULAR POSITION, THEN DECOMPOSING IF YOU ARE GOING TO INTERVIEW SOMEONE, DECOMPOSING WOULD BE FIRST CONSTRUCTING A LIST OF THE ATTRIBUTES THAT YOU REQUIRE FOR THE JOB. THEN IN THE INTERVIEW YOU WOULD FOCUS ON EACH ONE OF THOSE ATTRIBUTES ONE AT A TIME. INDEPENDENTLY OF THE OTHER. YOU WOULD ATTEMPT AND YOU WOULD DELAY YOUR INTUITION. YOU WOULD DELAY THE GLOBAL JUDGMENT WITH THE PERSON UNTIL YOU HAVE COVERED ALL OF THE ATTRIBUTES. NOW MORE GENERALLY WHEN YOU ARE FACING A DECISION WITH MULTIPLE OPTIONS YOU CAN SEE ANY OPTION AS A CANDIDATE AND OPTIONS HAVE ATTRIBUTES THAT MAKE THEM MORE OR LESS DESIRABLE. AND EVALUATING ATTRIBUTES ONE AT A TIME AND DELAYING GLOBAL EVALUATION ARE RECOMMENDED STEPS FOR OPTIONS MORE GENERALLY AS WELL FOR HIRING CANDIDATES. SIMILARLY FOR EVALUATING CANDIDATES OR EVALUATING THE PERFORMANCE OF PEOPLE, YOU WOULD WANT THE PERSON DOING THIS TO BE THINKING OF SEPARATE EVENTS, OF SEPARATE ATTRIBUTES PERFORMERS AND NOT TO JUMP TO A GLOBAL JUDGMENT. >> GAL: I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU SEE AS THE ROLE OF TECHNOLOGY SOLVING SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS WITH NOISE SPECIFICALLY WHEN WE THINK ABOUT A ALGA RITHMIC JUDGMENT AND REMOVING THE VARIABILITY. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE POSITIVES. DO YOU ACTUALLY SEE SOME HOPE IN TECHNOLOGIES ABILITY TO REDUCE THE NOISE? CASS? >> CASS: IN THE LAST PERIOD THAT WHEN ONE SAYS SOMETHING POSSIBLE ABOUT ALGORITHMS PEOPLE TEND NOT TO SMILE AND JUMP FOR JOY. WHEN ONE SAYS SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT ALGORITHM PEOPLE NOD IN PLEASED A SENT. ASCENT. THE FIRST THING THAT ALGORITHMS DO IS THEY ELIMINATE NOISE. THEY DON'T CUT NOISE. THEY ELIMINATE IT. IT'S LIKE A SCALE THAT ALWAYS SPITS OUT IF NOT THE RIGHT ANSWER THE SAME ANSWER. SO IF YOU HAVE AN ALGORITHM TO PREDICT WHETHER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO PLEA THE JURISDICTION IF THEY GET BAIL ORAL GOOD RHYTHM TO PREDICT WHETHER SOMEONE WILL BE IN A JAIL IN 3 YEARS IT WILL GIVE THE SAME ANSWER IN GOOD MOOD OR BAD MOOD OR TUESDAY OR THURSDAY IT WON'T BE IN A MOOD. THERE WASN'T BE ANY SYSTEM NO NOISE. NOW I THINK THE HUMAN BEHIND DOES NOT GET THRILLED TO HEAR THAT. BUT IT SHOULD BE A BIT HALFIER THAT IT IS BECAUSE CUTTING NOISE OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL ARE REALLY GOOD THINGS. IT CUTS ERROR A LOT. THINK OF A SCALE THAT IS NOISY ALL OVER THE PLACE. THE ERRORS ADD UP AND CAUSE TOTAL ERROR IN TERMS OF JOYFULLY MISPERCEPTIONING THEMSELVES AS THIN PEOPLE OR OVERWEIGHT PE PEOPLE. THEY ARE BOTHERRORS AN THEY ADD UP. AL ABOUT A RHYTHMS DO ELIMINATE NOISE. THAT'S VERY GOOD. THEY CAN ALSO COMPARE TO HUMAN BEINGS I AM USING CANNOT WILL BE LESS BIASED ALONG ANY DIMENSION YOU CARE ABOUT THEY MIGHT BE LESS SUBJECT TO LESS OPTIMISTIC BOYISM. THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS BE LESS SUBJECT TO OTHER FORMS OF BIAS WHICH ARE VERY FAMILIAR THESE DAYS LET'S SAY. >> GAL: IF WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE FLIP SIDE. I IMAGINE YOU CAN ALSO IMAGINE THE EXTREME TOO OF THE DEH DEHUMANIZING PROCESS THAT CAN HAPPEN IF PEOPLE ARE TURN INTO NUMBERS. DANIEL? >> DANIEL: IN GENERAL, PEOPLE ARE NOT IN FAVOR OF ALGA RHYTHMS WHEN THEY COMPETE WITH HUMANS. THERE WAS A FILM THAT I RECOMMEND TO EVERYONE. IT IS CALLED ALFA GO. IT IS ON NETFLIX IT DESCRIBES A COMPETITION BETWEEN A PROGRAM AND THE WORLD CHAMPION ONE OF THE WORLD PLAYERS IN GO. ALL OF KOREA WAS TRANS FIXED. THEY WERE ON GAME 4 THE HUMAN BOAT THE MACHINE. IT WAS ONE OF 5 GAMES WHERE THE HUMAN PREVAILED. THE INTERESTING THING IS EVERYBODY WAS JOYOUS INCLUDING BY THE WAY THE TEAM THAT CONSTRUCTED THE PROGRAM. THEY WERE CLEARLY THRILLED TO SEE THE HUMAN DEFEAT THE MAC MACHINE. SO WE HAVE A VERY STRONG PERJURY AGAINST ALGORITHMS. THEY ARE GOING TO BE RESISTED. THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF RESISTANCE AND THERE ARE GOING TO BE VERY TRICKY REARRANGEMENTS TO BE MADE WHERE VERY GOOD ALGORITHMS THERE IS GOING TO BE A TEMPTATION TO REPLACE JUDGMENT BY ALGA RHYTHMS AND SOMETIMES IT WILL BE A GOOD THING TO DO AN OTHER TIMES IT'S GOING TO BE A BAD THING TO DO. ONE THING YOU KNOW IT'S GOING TO BE VERY COMPLICATED. THIS IS COMING. THOSE KINDS OF DECISIONS AND THOSE KINDS OF DIFFICULTIES ARE COMING. I'M CLEARLY HAVING ALGA RHYTHM REPLACE HUMANS IS NOT PROBLEM FREE. IT'S GOING TO CAUSE MASSIVE DISRUPTION AS IT OCCURS. >> GAL: I HAVE A META PROCESS QUESTION WHICH MY BOOK REVIEW HAD ON SOMEBODY THAT LOOKS AT BOOKS EVERY DAY LOTS AND LOTS OF THEM. HOW WAS IT TO WORK COLLAB COLLABORATIVELY? HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT? I WAS THRILLED WHEN I SAW 3 OF YOUR NAMES. YOU WERE 2 OF THE 3. CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW IT CAME ABOUT AND ALSO WHAT THE PROCESS WAS OF WORKING TOGETHER ON THIS? >> CASS: I FIRST BECAME INTERESTED IN NOISE ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO. THEN ABOUT 5 YEARS OLIVIA AND I BEGAN COLLABORATING ON SOMETHING THAT COULD BECOME A BOOK BUT WE REALLY DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT THERE WOULD BE A BOOK. AND THEN, 3 OR 4 YEARS AGO NOW CASS BECAME CLEARLY INTERESTED AND SEEMED TO BE INTERESTED IN JOINING US. WE WERE THRILLED BECAUSE WE KNEW THAT CASS WAS ON BOARD WE KNEW THERE WAS GOING TO BE A BOOK BECAUSE HE IS A FORCE OF NATURE AND HE WAS GOING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. AND THE COLLABORATION WAS, YOU KNOW, AS COLLABORATIONS ARE. WE SOMETIMES GREED. WE MOSTLY AGREED AND WE FOUND EYE GOOD WAY OF WORKING TOGETHER. IN PART BY SEPARATING TOPICS AND IN PART BY JOINING FORCES AND REALLY WORKING COOPERATIVELY ON EACH CHAPTER. WE HAD BOTH FORMS OF COOPE COOPERATION. >> GAL: I'M CURIOUS WHERE THE DISAGREEMENTS WERE. THE GENERAL CONCEPT OF NOISE WAS ONE YOU WERE ALL ON BOARD WITH. WHAT IS FASCINATING IS TO TO IMAGINE WHERE YOU FOUND THIS ALIGNMENT. >> DANIEL: THEY WERE HOW MANY READERS ARE WE GOING TO LOSE WHEN WE GO INTO TECHNICALITIES AN HOW ESSENTIAL IT IS TO HAVE TECHNICALITIES AND SPEAK TO AN ACADEMIC AUDIENCE AS WELL AS THE PUBLIC AUDIENCE. THAT WAS A BALANCE THAT WE WERE CONSTANTLY STRUGGLE WITH. EACH OF US -- FREQUENTLY WE AGREED ON THAT. EVENTUALLY WE REACHED CONSENSUS. >> CASS: WE REALLY HAD FUN WITH THE BOOK I SHOULD SAY. OVERWHELMING EXPERIENCE OF COLLABORATION FOR ME WAS FUN AND JOY AND LAUGHTER. AND PART OF THE JOY WAS DANNY IS THE MASTER OF SEEING PROBLEMS IN HIS OWN PROS AN ANAL SIS. HE IS ALMOST AS GOOD AS SEEING PROBLEMS IN HIS COAUTHOR'S PROS AND ANALYSIS. SO THE CONSTANT OF 5:00 A.M. NOTES SAYING I DON'T KNOW WHY, DANNY HAVEN'T SEEN UNTIL NOW THE FUNDAMENTAL FLAW. MAYBE AT 5:28 HE WOULD SAY I MIGHT HAVE A SOLUTION. THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN A LITTLE. I AM NOT AS GOOD AT THAT AS HE IS. TOWARDS THE LAST STEAKS SOME PARTS OF THE BOOK WITH LIEU AND POLICY IT OCCURRED TO ME LATE THAT NO ONE IS INTERESTED IN THIS SCRIPT FOR ME. SO I CUT THEM. >> GAL: WITH THE REMAINING TIME LET'S GET TO SOME QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE. ONE QUESTION I AM INTERESTED TO HEAR IF YOU DID RESEARCH ON THE SPECIFIC POINT THE QUESTION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT. NOISE IN THE WORLD OF LAW ENFORCEMENT. WAS THERE ANY INSIGHT THAT'S YOU WERE ABLE TO COME TO ON THOSE QUESTIONS? >> CASS: IF IT IS NOT EXPLICITLY CALLED OUT IN THE BOOK IT IS IMPLICITLY THERE. SO THE SUBJECT OF RANDOMNESS WHEN IT COMES TO LAW ENFORCEMENT IS VERY MUCH PART OF THE BACKGROUND AND IN SOME PLACES THE FOREGROUND OF THE BOOK. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE BOOK YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT RACIAL DISCRIMINATION THAT ISN'T QUITE THAT, IT IS UNDERSTAND IN THE SAME WAY IN A CERTAIN FAMILY. WHETHER YOU ARE ON A VAGUE WALK IT IS OFTEN LIKE A LOTTERY AS WELL AS HAVING A RACIAL AND CLASS DIMENSION. THERE IS A LOTTERY AND THAT IS A PROBLEM AND BIG PROBLEM IS WHAT ARE WE GOING DO ABOUT IT? >>> GAL: I HAVE A QUESTION H HERE. JULIE STAPLE. POPULATION IS PROUD TO MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON NO INFORMATION AT ALL. CAN YOUR ANALYSIS SPEAK TO THAT. DANIEL, DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT ONE? >> DANIEL: I DON'T THINK REALLY. WE ARE REALLY FOCUSED ON THE JUDGMENTS OF PROFESSIONALS WHO DO WANT -- WE ASSUME THAT THEY DO WANT TO REACH THE CORRECT DECISION. THIS IS THE ASSUMPTION WE ARE MAKING. WE ASSUME THEY WANT TO USE INFORMATION AND NOISE HAPPENED IN SPITE OF THEIR INTENTIONS TO DO A GOOD JOB. WHEN PEOPLE PREFER TO BE LED BY THEIR EMOTIONS AND THEY ARE JUST AS ACCEPTING AS MISINFORMATION AS VALID INFORMATION WE HAVE VERY LITTLE TO SAY ABOUT THAT. >> GAL: NOISE SOUNDS LIKE QUALITY CONTROL. HOW DOES YOUR NOISE DIFFER OR GO BEYOND OTHER SOCIAL SCIENTISTS? IS THERE SOMETHING TO THAT THAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT THINGS THAT ARE ADJACENT TO STATISTICAL QUALITY CONTROL. DANIEL, YOU CAN ANSWER THAT. >> DANIEL: THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY. THE DEAL IS WITH QUALITY CONTROL AND THE BASIC DECISION IS TO ACHIEVE DISCIPLINE THINKING AND TO DISCIPLINE JUDGMENT WHICH IS THE ESSENCE OF THAT IS QUALITY CONTROL. IT IS THE REDUCTION OF NOISE BY THE WAY IN QUALITY CONTROL BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAVE LIMITED NOISE YOU CAN SEE BIAS. THEN YOU CAN CORRECT BIAS. BUT ELIMINATING NOISE BY ACHIEVING SOME UNIFORMLY IS AN EARLY STEP IN QUALITY CONTROL AND AN ESSENTIAL. >> GAL: WE HAVE A QUESTION WHETHER SUGGESTIONS FOR READINGS FOR THOSE INTERESTED IN REDUCING AND IDENTIFYING AN REDUCING NOISE. DO EITHER OF YOU HAVE ANY GOOD READING SUGGESTIONS FOR PEOPLE THAT WANTED TO DIVE DOPE NEAR THIS TOPIC? >> THERE IS A BOOK CALLED NOISE. THAT BOOK I'M PLEASED TO BE ABLE TO SAY DEALS WITH PARTICULAR AREAS SO. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN RECRUITMENT AND HIRING OR IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN MEDICINE SOMETHING THAT WE GOT CLONELY INTERESTED IN OR IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN LAW AND POLPOLICYE HAVE SOMETHING LIKE A BIB BIBLIOBRAPHY THAT CAN BE TRACTED FROM SOMETHING HE IS. ANOTHER QUESTION OF MY OWN HERE. I'M CURIOUS ABOUT BIAS TRAINING AND THIS WHOLE WORLD WHICH A LOT OF INSTITUTIONS HAVE TAKEN ON IN THE LAST YEAR WITH A LOT MORE INTENSITY. HOW DO YOU SEE THAT CONVERGE OR DIVERSE FROM THE WORLD OF CR CREATING NOISE. THAT IS SUBJECTIVE TO THE THING YOU ARE LOOKING AT. IS IT A GOOD DEVELOPMENT THAT INSTITUTIONS ARE MAKING US MORE WEAR OF THINGS LIKE OWN OUR BIAS WITH RADAR TO THIS QUESTION YOU ARE LOOKING AT? >> CERTAINLY. TIT IS A BIAS AGAINST SOCIAL GROUPS, ANY GROUPS AND GENDER. THOSE ARE NOT THE COMMENTED B BIASES. WHEN WE TALK OF CONTROLLING NOISE WE ARE TALKING MOSTLY ON THE COGNITIVE SIDE NOT THE EMOTIONAL SIDE WHICH IS THE ONE BEING TACKLED IN BIAS TRAINING. >> GAL: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ONE OF THE NOISY DECISIONS IS THE CORRECT JUDGE EN MANY. THE 2008 STAR CRASH WHERE THE EMERGENCITY OF OPINIONS WERE WRONG. >> CASS: IF YOU HAVE A SCALE AND YOU WEIGH YOURSELF 1000 TIMES AN ONE OF THE TIMES IT'S RIGHT. THAT'S A POSITIVE THING. BUT YOU WOULD BE LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT. MAYBE YOU HAVE AN ACCURATE SCALE THAT CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE NOISY SCALE. THE PROBLEM WITH A NOISY INDIVIDUAL WHO IS SOMETIMES BRIGHT IT IS VERY HARD TO IDENTIFY IN ONE IS ACCURATE. THAT'S WHY HYGIENE IS SO IMPORTANT THAT CAN TYPICALLY GET YOU CLOSE TOUR WHAT IS ACCURATE. >> >> GAL: ONE MORE TO CLOSE US OUT HERE. AS YOU LOOK OUT ON THE VARIOUS FIELDS THAT YOU WERE EXAMING WHERE NOISE IS A FACTOR. WHERE IS THE MOST CON WENTAL IN OUR WORLD TODAY THAT WE FIGURE OUT HOW TO ELIMINATE NOISE. MOST A QUESTION OF IF NOT LIFE OR DEATH, BUT REALLY COULD MAKE AN IMPACT ON THE PEOPLE LIFE. DANIEL, YOU CAN START. >> DANIEL: CLEARLY THERE IS NOISE IN POLICY MAKING. FOR EXAMPLE YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENT JURISDICTIONS, DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, DIFFERENT REGIONS HAVE DIFFERENT RULES ABOUT COVID. THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME SITUATION. THAT'S NOISE AND IT IS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD THING. IN THIS CASE THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE LEARNED FROM IT. I WOULD SAY LIFE AND DEATH IS CLEARLY MEDICINE AND LAW. OBVIOUSLY URGE EN PROBLEMS. IN BOTH OF THOSE WE WOULD WANT TO MAKING RAPID PROCESS. >> GAL: CAN YOU ADD ANYTHING TO THAT? >> DANIEL: HEALTH, SAFETY AND THE ENVIRONMENT TAKING THEM AS A UNIT WOULD BE THE AREA NUMBER 1 FOR NOISE REDUCTION AND DECISION HYGIENE. >> GAL: THANK YOU BOTH IT IS A FASCINATING BOOK. I ENJOYED READING IT. I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF IMPORTANT ABOUT LESSONS HOW SOCIETY CAN FUNCTION BETTER THAN IT IS. I APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US. THANK YOU ALL FOR OUR QUESTIONS. YOUR QUESTIONS. >> >> "THE RAI"THE BOPETRAELI>> SPONSS MADISON COUNCIL AND THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE ARTS. >> HI EVERYONE AN AND WELCOME S LIBRARY FAST FESTIVAL. WE ARE HERE TO TALK ABOUT "THE BOOK OF LAMPS AND BANNERS" AND "THE MAIDENS". BEFORE WE BEGIN I WANT TO LET YOU KNOW WE WILL SAVE THE LAST 10 MINUTES OF THIS HALF AN HOUR EVENT TO ANSWER AUDIENCE QUESTIONS PLEASE START SUBMITTING THEM NOW. I AM GOING TICK OFF THIS FANTASTIC EVENT FOR THE THEME QUESTION FOR THE FESTIVAL OUR THEME IS OPEN A BOOK, OPEN THE WORLD. CERTAINLY FOR ME OPENING A BOOK OPENED AN ENTIRE WORLD WHEN MY DAD GAVE ME 1989 IN 1989 WHEN I WAS 9. I WANT TO ASK YOU GUYS HOW HAVE BOOKS OPENED THE WORLD FOR YOU. JUMP IN WHOEVER WANTS TO >> LIZ: IN THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF GOING ON 2 YEARS WHEN OUR CHANCES TO TRAVEL AND SEE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LIMITED FOR ME, BOOKS HAVE BEEN A LIFE SAVER JUST IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO BE SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN MY OWN HEAD AND MY OWN HOUSE AND MY OWN BACKYARD. I THINK THAT'S AN EXTENSION OF WHAT BOOKS DO FOR US MOST OF US WHO ARE BOOK LOVERS, READERS AND WRITERS. SINCE CHILDHOOD IT EXPOSES US TO ANOTHER PLACE ANOTHER WORLD, ANOTHER PERSON WHO IS NOT US. SOMETIMES ANOTHER SPECIES, ANOTHER BEING. RICHARD POWER'S UNDER STORY WHERE TREES ARE CHARACTERS. NOVELS WHERE PLACE AND SETTING CAN BE A CHARACTER IN IT. FOR ME IT'S BEEN REALLY CRUCIAL FOR SURVIVING AN KEEPING MY SANITY DURING THE PANDEMIC. >> ALEX: I AGREE WITH THAT. ALSO ABOUT CHILDHOOD SPECIFICALLY I GREW UP IN A SMALL ISLAND IN THE MEDITERRANEAN. I JUST HAD -- I GREW UP BEFORE THE INTERNET. I GREW UP IN A HOUSE FULL OF BOOKS. MY MOM WAS AN AVID READER. THE BOOKS WERE THERE BEFORE I WAS BORN. WITHOUT THAT I WOULD HAVE GROWN UP SMALL MINDED. I READ ABOUT THESE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, DIFFERENT CULTURES, ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT KINDS OF STORIES. I THINK IT HAS EXPANDED MY MIND IN A BRILLIANT WAY. READ WIDELY WHEN YOU ARE YOUNG. >>> PETRA: I HAVE 2 CULTS THAT ARE BOTH ADULTS NOW. SEEING THEM AND MYSELF AND WATCHING OTHER CHILDREN I KNOW GROW UP INTO ADULTS, I THINK WHAT HAPPENS WITH CHILDHOOD READING BECAUSE AS A KID YOU ARE EXPOSURE TO THE WORLD IS NECESSARILY LIMITED BECAUSE YOU'RE A CHILD. YOUR EXPERIENCE IS LIMITED AND YOU MAY NOT BE WELL TRAVELED. YOU MAY NOT KNOW YOUR HOUSE OUTSIDE OF YOUR HOUSE OR NEIGHBORHOOD. BUT I THINK WE ARE ABLE TO INHABIT BOOKS IN A WAY THAT WE ARE NOT ABLE TO INHABIT THE BEST MOVIES OR TV SHOWS. BY DOING THAT WHEN YOU ARE A CHILD IT OPENS UP THIS SENSE OF KIND OF CORNY SENSE OF WONDER THAT YOU HEAR ABOUT A LOT. I THINK WE TAKE THAT WITH US WHEN WE GO OUT AND ENCOUNTER THE REAL WORLD, THE SENSE OF WONDER THAT WE HAVE READING BOOKS AS KIDS WHETHER IT IS TALKING OR ANNA GREEN GABLES OR WHATEVER YOUNG PEOPLE ARE READING TODAY. I THINK WE GET TURNED ON TO THAT IN A WAY THAT WE ARE ABLE TO TAKE THAT OUT AND CARTY WITH US WHEN WE ARE OWLER AND WE DO FINALLY GO OUT IN THE WORLD ON OUR OWN. I WARNED YOU HEAD OF TIME THAT WE WERE LIKELY TO GET INTERRUPTED BY ONE OF MY CATS. HE IS VERY LIT AIR. HE WANTED TO SAY HI. >> ALEX: DOES HE HAVE A QUESTION. >> P PETRA MAYER ARE A: IF YOU ARE A BABY GEEK LIKE ME OPENING A COMPLETE DIFFERENT WORLD THAT WAS SUCH A TURNING POINT IN MY LIFE. BUT I WANT TO BRING IT BACK TO YOUR BOOKS. BOTH OF WHICH OPEN THE DOOR TO WORLDS THAT ARE A LITTLE DARK I GOT TO SAY. ASSUMING OUR AUDIENCE HASN'T BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH TO ROAD THEM. COULD YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN YOUR MOST RECENT BOOKS? ALEX, GO AHEAD. >> ALEX: THE "THE MAIDENS" IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL THRILL. IT HAS SIMILAR THEMES TO SILENT PATIENT WHICH IS A PSYCHOLOGY AND MURDER. IT IS A MYSTERIOUS GREEK TRAGEDY PROFESSOR WHO IS SUSPECTED OF MURDERING HIS STUDENTS WHO WERE ALL MEMBERS OF A SECRET SOCIETY CALLED "THE MAIDENS". IT IS A THERAPIST CALLED MARNNA WHO IS OBSESSED WITH PROVING THE GUILT EVEN AT THE RISK OF ENDANGERIING HER OWN LIFE. KIND OF DARK I WOULD SAY. >> PETRA: I LOVE DARK. >> LIZ: MY OWN TASTE AS A READER AND WRITER I TEND TO SKEW DARK. I LOVE DARK ACADEMIA AS A GONE ARE A, YOUR BOOK LIKE "THE SECRET HISTORY" I LOVE BOOKS LIKE THAT. WITH "THE BOOK OF LAMPS AND BANNERS" WHICH IS THE FOURTH IN A CONTINUING SERIES PSYCHOLOGICAL THRILLERS WITH A VERY DAMAGED PROTAGANIST, THAT BOOK WAS STARTED I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT YEAR. BUT BREXIT CAME DOWN SHORTLY AFTERWARDS AND IT IT IS SET IN LONDON IT IS A PLACE WHERE I WOULD LIVE FOR PART OF THE YEAR BECAUSE MY PARTNER IS A UK CITIZEN AND IS BASED THERE. I HAD TO BASICALLY STOP AND R REEVALUATE AND ULTIMATELY R REWRITE THE BOOK TO INCORPORATE BREXIT AND THEN WHEN THE 2016 ELECTION CAME AND SEEING THE RISE OF WHITE NATIONALISTS IN BOTH THE UK AND U.S., I HAD TO SIT DOWN AND REWRITE THE BOOK AGAIN AND INCORPORATE EAT THAT INTO THE BACKDROP AND A LITTLE BIT MORE INTO THE FOREGROUND AS THE BOOK GOES ON. I THINK THERE WAS NO WAY GOING DARK SKEWIFG DARK. I THINK WE WERE LIVING AND MAYBE STILL ARE IN A DARK TIME. >> ALEX: IT IS A QUESTION WHEN WE ARE LIVING IN SUCH A DARK TIME WHY PEOPLE ENJOY READING DARK STUFF ON TOP OF IT. I DON'T KNOW THE ABC BUT I DO THINK ABOUT THAT. >> >> PETRA: IN THE GREEN ROOM WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ROMANCE NO NOVELS THEY ARE A FORM OF ES ESCAPISM. THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO BE REASSURED THAT THINGS ARE DARK ALL OVER OR HOW OTHER PEOPLE DEAL WITH DARKNESS. SOMETIMES WE ARE WORKING OUT THE WAYS THAT WE CAN DEAL WITH THE DARKNESS AROUND US. >> ALEX: AT THE END OF THE BOOKS THERE IS A RESOLUTION. MAYBE THAT IS IT. >>> LIZ: IT IMPOSES A NARRATIVE THAT WE DON'T HAVE YOU ARE IN OWN LIVES. THERE IS A RESOLUTION. EVEN TALKING ABOUT ROMANCE NOVELS, EVEN IF IT IS NOT A HAPPY ENDING. IT IS AN ENDING OF SORTS. YOU HAVE A SENSE THAT SOMEBODY HAS BEEN ABLE TO TAKE THIS CHAOTIC MATERIAL AND HAVE IT MAKE SENSE IN A WAY THAT I THINK THE REAL WORLD DOES NOT AT LEAST FOR ME ALWAYS MAKE SENSE. >> ALEX: I TOTALLY AGREE. >> PETRA: THAT'S WHAT DRIVES ME NUTS ABOUT WHAT IS COMMONLY CALLED LITERARY FICTION. WE CAN ARGUE BETWEEN THE DIFFERENCES AND WHETHER IT IS A TERM THAT'S USEFUL IN THE BOOK STORE. SOME STORIES ARE VERY INTERIOR AN OPEN END AND THEY LIKE TO END AMBIGUOUSLY. I LOOK AT THOSE STORIES AND THINK THAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD. I DON'T NEED IT HERE. THE OTHER THING THAT CAME UP WHILE WE WERE IN THE GROWN ROOM LIZ YOU WERE READING ALEX'S B BOOK. THAT MADE ME EXCITED. AS I WAS READING. AS I WAS RIDING "THE MAIDENS" I WAS SENSING COMMONALTIES BETWEEN THE MAIN CHARACTERS. THEY WERE BOTH WOMEN WHO ARE EYE LITTLE BIT UNRELIABLE. DEFINITELY DAMAGED. A LITTLE BIT PRONE TO SEEING THE SUPER NATURAL. SO I WANTED TO ASK HOW THESE CHARACTERS CAME TO EACH OF YOU. >> ALEX: LIZ, YOU GO FIRST. >> LIZ: CASS HAS A LOT OF AU AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL ELEMENTS IN H HER -- I AM NOT AS SCREWED UP AS SHE IS NOT NOW. I WAS LUCKY IN A WAY THAT I WAS ABLE TO DRAW ON A LOT OF THE DARKER MATERIAL AND EXPERIENCES OF MY OWN LIFE AND USE IT IN A WAY THAT W WAS USEFUL. I DON'T BELIEVE IN WRITING AS THERAPY. I BELIEVE THAT MOST WRITERS OR MANY WRITERS TAKE ELEMENTS FROM THEIR OWN LIVES AND USE THEM IN THEIR FICTION. THAT'S WHAT I DID WITH CASS. I FEEL WITH HER THAT I AM ABLE TO CHANNEL A LOT OF MY OWN DARK ENERGY. SHE IS A SECRET SHARER. SHE HAS MUCH MORE OF AROUND INTERESTING LIFE THAN I DO. >> ALEX: FOR ME IN MY CASE SHE IS PROBABLY MORE MESSED UP THAN I AM AT LEAST NOW. AND SHE IS A PSYCHOTHERAPIST. SHE ALSO FUNCTIONS AS A DET DETECTIVE AND SHE IS TRYING TO SOLVE A MURDER, A SERIES OF MURDERS. SHE IS ALSO A WOMAN WHO IS GRIEVING WHOSE WOMAN DECIDE A YEAR AGO. SHE IS REALLY STRUGGLE TO GO DEAL WITH THAT DESPITE HER SKILLS BEING A THERAPIST. IT'S KIND OF WEIRD. IT'S KIND OF A MERCURY PROCESS. YOU NEVER KNOW WHERE THINGS COME FROM. I JUST HAD THIS IMAGE THE VERY FIRST IMAGE OF MA AR INA WAS HER HOUSE IN LONDON FINDING A PAIR OF GREEN SPEAKERS. IT ENDED UP BEING THE FIRST CHAPTER OF THE NOVEL. SHE GREW FROM THERE. SHE GREW FROM AN IMAGE OF SOMEONE. IT IS AN INTERESTING PROCESS I THINK. >> PETRA: IT IS A REALLY STRIKING DESCRIPTION OF GRIEVE. IT IS A BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN OPENING CHAPTER. YOU WOULDN'T THINK IF SOMEBODY WERE TO TELL YOU THIS IS THE OPENING OF A PSYCHOLOGICAL NO NOVEL. THIS VERY INTERIOR SCENE WHEN SHE FINDS THE GREEN SHOES. I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY A TOUR DE FORCE. IT WAS VERY COMPELLING SCENE. >> ALEX: THANK YOU. TELL ME I'M CURSE. I DID FIND -- IT WAS A REALLY SAD EXPERIENCE LIVING WITH A CHARACTER WITH THAT FOR 2 AND A HALF, 3 YEARS. DO YOU FIND THAT WITH YOUR WRITING. SAD AS A BIT MOURN FULL I SUPPOSE. >> PETRA: WITH ME I DON'T KNOW MAYBE BECAUSE MARIANNA IS GRIEVING YOUR EXPERIENCE WOULD LEAVE WITH YOU SADNESS. WITH I AM WRITING THE BOOKS I FEEL IMPACTED BY IT. IT IS A VERY, YOU KNOW, SHE IS IN A VERY DARK PLACE AND SHE IS A LOT MORE DESPERATE AND DES DESPAIRING THAN I AM. NOT THAT I AM A POLYANNA. SO I FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT TO BE INSIDE THAT PERSON'S HEAD. IT IS A FIRST PERSON NARRATIVE TOO WHICH I THINK IS SOMETHING CAN BE VERY CHANNELING. IT'S LIKE ACTING IN A WAY I THINK. I THINK OF ACTORS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT MC BETH. WHAT IS IT LIKE TO PLAY LADY M MCBETH NIGHT AFTER NIGHT. INHABITING THOSE CHARACTERS LIKE YOURS OR MINOR OTHERS IT DOES HAVE AN IMPACT ON ME AND YOU. >> ALEX: THERE IS AN ELEMENT AT THE END FINISHING IT. THIS WAS FOR ME. I WAS WORKING THROUGH SOMETHING WHILE I WAS WRITING THE BOOK. WHEN I FINISHED IT, I FELT A LOT LIGHTER. >> PET A. IT IS INTERESTING WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT CASS. SHE IS BRIEFING TOO BUT SHE IS NOT GRIEVING THE PERSON. SHE IS GRIEVING THE LOSS OF THE SCENE OR LIFE SHE COULD HAVE H HAD. SHE HAS AN OPPORTUNITY AND SHE SCREWS IT UP. I FEEL LIKE SHE IS MOURNING A LIFE THAT SHE COULD HAVE HAD BUT DOESN'T EVEN WANT IF THAT MAKES SENSE. >> LIZ: NO, I THINK THAT'S REALLY EXCELLENT WAY OF DESCRIBING HER. I SAID IN THE PAST THAT SHE SORT OF -- WHEN I TALKED ABOUT HER BEING A SAKE RECEIPT SHARER. I PICTURED HER AS ME IF MY BRAKE LINES WERE CUT AT 21. SHE UNDERWENT SOME OF THE SAME DIFFICULT EXPERIENCES BUT I CAME BACK FROM IT. WRITING THOSE BOOKS I THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT WOULD IT HAVE BEEN LIKE IF I HAD NOT COME BACK FROM THAT? IF I HAD NOT HAD THE LIVID. IF I HAD NOT BEEN FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE A SUPPORTIVE FAMILY AND HAVING A CAREER DOING SOMETHING I LOVE. SO TO HAVE HER BE SO TWARTED AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS MOSTLY HER OWN SELF-S SELF-SABOTAGE, BUT I THINK OF HER SHE ALMOST COMES OUT OF SUSPENDED ANIMATION AS THE FIRST BOOK BEGINS. AFTER 20 ODD YEARS OF WORKING IN THE STOCK ROOM AT THE STRAND SHE PICKS UP HER CAMERA AND LEAVES NEW YORK CITY AND HEADS OUT INTO THE WORLD. IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD EVEN THOUGH SHE IS NOT IN SUSPENDED ANIMATION. SHE IS AN ANALOG PERSON IN A DIGITAL AGE. SHE IS TIED TO HER VINYL RECORD. SHE IS TIED TO HER FILM CAMERA AS OPPOSED TO A DIGITAL CAMERA. I FEEL A SORT OF MELLANCOLLY ABOUT THE LOSS OF THAT WORLD TOO. A LOT MY AGE TOO. >> IS IT IN "THE BOOK OF LAMPS AND BANNERS" THAT SHE TALKS ABOUT SHE HATES DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY? >> LIZ: YES. >> PET A. I FOUND IT SO INTERESTING. ONE THING I LIKE TO ASK WRITERS IS HOW DOES BEING A WRITER CHANGE THE WAY THAT YOU MOVE THROUGH AND SEE THE WORLD? ARE YOU ALWAYS LOOKING AT IT IN MATERIALS OF STORY? CASS IS ALSO A VISUAL STORE A TELLER. THERE ARE MULTIPLE NESTED LAYERS OF STORY TELLING. HAS LIVING WITH THAT CHARACTER CHANGED THE WAY YOU PERCEIVE THE WORLD? THAT'S A QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU REALLY. >> LIZ: ALEX, WHY DON'T YOU FIELD THAT FIRST. >>AL E: HAS IT? WELL, IT MADE ME LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT SPECIFIC MOMENTS IN TIME AND IT IS ALL SET IN CAMBRIDGE AND I WAS A STUDENT THERE 20 YEARS AGO. SO I DECIDED TO GO BACK AND RESEARCH IT AND WHILE I WAS WRITING THE NOVEL, I SPENT SEVERAL TRIPS FOR A FEW DAYS AT A TIME IN CAMBRIDGE IN A HOTEL. I WOULD TAKE A LITTLE NOTEBOOK. THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO R REDISCOVER THE CITY WAS TO WALK THROUGH THE NOVEL CHAPTER TO CHAPTER DOING EVERYTHING MAR MARIANNA WAS DOING AT THE TIME SHE WAS MEANT TO BE DOING IT. WHAT HAPPENED IS REALLY ODD I WOULD BE SITTING IN A PUB AT 9 9:30 THINKING I WOULD BE NOTETAKING AND WRITING ABOUT THE SMELLS AND SOUNDS. WHAT ALSO HAPPENED WAS THAT I STARTED TO BE HAUNTED IN THE WAY THAT MARIANNA IS HAUNTED BY HER PAST. I WAS HAUNTED BY MYSELF AT 18, FRIENDS THAT I LOST AND LOVERS THAT I LOST LIKE A GHOST SITTING ON A WALL. AND IT KIND OF BECAME A VERY INTERNAL EXPERIENCE. I PUT ALL THAT HAVE NO THE CHARACTER AND INTO THE NOVEL. SO I THINK IT IS A REALLY -- IT FORCES YOU TO LOOK OUTWARD AND ALSO INWARD WHEN YOU ARE WRITING A BOOK. >> PET A. THAT'S SO INTERESTING WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT WALKING AND REPHRASING HER STEPS AND THEN HAVING THE EXPERIENCE OF WRITING IT DOWN AND SEEING IT AND TAPPING INTO YOUR OWN EXPERIENCES. A LOT OF MY WORK -- THOSE BOOKS BUT OTHERS AS WELL ARE VERY MUCH INSPIRED BY WALKING THROUGH LANDSCAPES. UNFAMILIAR LANDSCAPES IN PARTICULAR. BACK WHEN ONE COULD TRAVEL. IF I WOULD BE SOMEPLACE THAT I HAD NOT BEEN BEFORE, I WOULD FIND IT WOULD ALWAYS JUST PUT ME VERY MUCH ON EDGE EVEN IF IT WAS A PLACE THAT WAS VERY BEAUTIFUL. I WOULD ALMOST FEEL SOMETHING ALMOST THREATENING ABOUT IT. MAYBE EVEN ESPECIALLY IF IT WAS IN A PLACE THAT WAS VERY BEAUTIFUL. AND I WOULD FIND MYSELF ALWAYS KIND OF LOOKING AND MAYBE IT IS BECAUSE THIS IS THE WAY I THINK AND WHAT I WRITE. LOOKING AROUND THINKING WHERE WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO HIDE A BODY HERE OR WHERE WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE IN THIS LANDSCAPE FR A PROTAGONIST TO BE WALK AGO LONG AND SEE A BODY OR COME ACROSS A CRIME SCENE? THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE K KENETIC ACTION ABOUT WALKING SOMEWHERE AND SOMETIMES IN A PLACE WHERE I HAVE BEEN BEFORE LIKE DC. LIKE YOU SAID, THAT WAS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL THING OF SEEING THE GIFT OF YOURSELF THERE. I THINK THAT'S A POWERFUL TOOL FOR WRITING. >> ALEX: THE ACTUAL KENETIC MOVEMENT IS TOTALLY RIGHT. I DO IT EVERY DAY I WRITE AND THEN I GO WALK DURING THE WALK THE GOOD IDEAS COX YOU HAVE TO SHOW UP AT THE DESK FIRST. THEN SOMETHING ABOUT THE FREEDOM OF THE MOVEMENT DISTRACT YOU AND THINKING. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT WORKS. BUT IT ALWAYS WORKS. >> PETRA: THERE IS SOMETHING MAGICAL ABOUT IT. I TEACH AT AN MMA PROGRAM AND ALSO WORKSHOP THE BEST THING YOU CAN DO FOR YOUR WRITING IS TO GO OUT AND TAKE A LONG WALK WHETHER TO BREAK A WRITERS BLOCK OR BREAK UP A -- IF YOU ARE MOVING BETWEEN SCENES AND CHARACTERS IT IS ONE OF THE GREATEST THINGS YOU BE DO. >> I HAVE 8 MILLION QUESTIONS. WE ARE OUT OF TIME FOR US. IT IS TIME TO MOVE OVER TO THE QUESTIONS FROM OUR AUDIENCE. I AM GOING TALK A REALLY LONG WALK AFTER THAT. THIS. I WANT TO LOOK AT THE QUESTION. A QUESTION FROM ROBERT THAT I THOUGHT WAS INTERESTING. EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT FEARS AND PSYCHOLOGICAL TRIGGERS ARE THAT AFFECT US. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHICH PSYCHOLOGICAL TAG TOTES HIT WHEN YOU ARE STARTING A NEW BOOK? >> ALEX: I NEED LIKE 10 MIN MINUTES. DO YOU IT FOR ME. >> LIZ: THAT'S A GREAT QUE QUESTION, ROBERT. I DON'T KNOW. A LOT -- I WILL BE INTERESTED, ALEX IN WHAT YOU THINK. A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH DEVELOPING YOUR CHARACTER AND THEIR VOICE AND FINDING OUT -- LEARNING WHAT WOULD TRIGGER THEM WHICH IS NOT NECESSARILY WHAT WOULD TRIGGER ME. BUT, YEAH THAT'S A QUESTION THAT COULD ALMOST BE AN ENTIRE SEMINAR. ALEX? >> ALEX: DEFINITELY IN THE SENSE OF WRITING A GONE GENRE TE HAS TO BE FEELINGS OF SUSPENSION AND ANXIETY. I LIVE WITH THAT ON A DAILY BASIS. IT IS MORE ABOUT FINDING A WAY AS YOU SAID TO TELL THE STORY THROUGH THE EYES OF THE CHARACTER AND THAT BRINGS YOU A LOT OF NEW MATERIAL THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO HIT WHEN YOU ARE WRITING IT. >> PETRA: SORE, I DIDN'T MEAN TO START WITH SUCH A DIFFICULT QUESTION. >> LIZ: IT WAS GREAT. >> PETRA: THIS ONE MAY BE MORE EASY. WHO ARE SOME OF YOUR FAVORITE AUTHORIZE WHO WRITE IN THE SAME DARK GENRE STYLE YOU DO? WHAT ARE YOU READ BEING RIGHT NOW? >>AL E: FOR ME IT IS RUTH RANDALL. I I HAVE GRADUATE TODAY RUTH RANDALL. LITERARY NOVELS VERSUS GENRE NOVELS. SHE IS A BRILLIANT WRITER THAT SHOULD HAVE WON THE PRIZE. BECAUSE SHE WROTE CRIME SHE WAS IGNORED. IT IS DARK. IT'S BRILLIANT. IT IS FUNNY. IT IS SURPRISING. IT'S HEARTFELT AND IT IS A GENRE PIECE. IT IS TEACHING ME WHAT I WOULD ASPIRE TO BE TO MAKE THESE NOVELS AS GOOD AS THEY CANNOT A FAST QUICK TAKE AWAY READS. IF THAT MAKES SENSE. >> LIZ: I LOVE RUTH RANDALL. SHE IS BRILLIANT. SHE IS ONE OF MY VERY FAVORITE WRITERS. I ALWAYS LEARN NEW THINGS FROM HER. HER AND BARBARA BINE. >> ALEX: I LOVE HER. SHE IS INCREDIBLE. >> LIZ: RUTH RANDALL. DAPHANE. KATE ATKINSON AND TANNA FRENCH WHO ARE REALLY WONDERFUL. I LOVE KATE ATKINSON'S BOOKS BECAUSE THEY DON'T REALLY FOLLOW THE TRADITIONAL CONVENTIONS OF A THRILL ERROR PROCEDURAL. THEY GO COMPLETELY OFF ON THESE WEIRD TANNING HE IS NOT AND THINGS. I FIND THEM REALLY, REALLY FASCINATING. THERE ARE MANY OTHERS NOW. THAT IS ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS THAT I CAN NEVER I ALWAYS THINK OF THE OTHER ANSWERS. >> ALEX: I LOVE HER AS WELL. SHE IS INCREDIBLE BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH ATMOSPHERE AND SO MUCH ROMANCE AT THE SAME TIME YOU ARE IN A CAPABLE SUSPENSE WRITER'S HANDS AND THERE IS SO MUCH FROM HER TO LEARN FROM AS WELL. >> PETRA: I FEEL LIKE I AM GETTING GREAT BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS. HONESTLY I HAVE NOT READ A LOT OF THRILLERS. THIS IS A NEW EXPERIENCE. I AM GOING READ RUTH RANDALL. WE HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION. I FEEL LIKE THIS IS MAYBE A GOOD PLACE FOR SOME BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS THIS IS FROM KEVIN. HE SAYS IF ONE IS A BEGINNER WRITER INTERESTED IN PSYCHOLOGICAL THRILLERS HOW WOULD YOU SUGGEST WE GO ABOUT LEARNING TO WRITE WHICH IS PRETTY BROAD. I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE TO READ IF THEY WANT TO LEARN HOW TO WRITE. MAYBE BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS. >> ALEX: I READ THE BOOK HOW TO WRITE SUSPENSION FICTION 5 TIMES IN A ROW. I TOOK SO MUCH FROM THAT EVEN BASIC THINGS THERE MUST BE A SENSE OF UNEASE CONSTANTLY. THE THREAT OF VIOLENCE IS NEVER FAR AWAY. YOU SHOULD NEVER HAVE TOO MANY PAGES WITHOUT SOMETHING WEIRD OR CREEPY. I CAN DO THAT. I RECOMMEND YOU READ THAT BOOK HOW TO WRITE SUSPENSION FICTION IS INCREDIBLE. >> LIZ: I TWO READ THAT BOOK WHEN I WAS STARTING OUT WRITING PSYCHOLOGICAL THRILLERS. IT WAS USEFUL. I AM NOT A BIG ONE FOR HOW-TO BOOKS WITH WRITING. EYEING THOUGH I TEACH WRITING, CREATIVE WRITING, I DON'T KNOW THAT WRITING CAN REALLY BE TAUGHT. BUT I THINK IT CAN BE LEARNED AND ENCOURAGED. I THINK THE WAY WE DO THAT IS BY READING. SO I WOULD SAY ANY OF THE WRITERS THAT WE MENTIONED IN THIS CONVERSATION IF YOU WANT TO WRITE PSYCHOLOGICAL THRILLERS WOULD BE A GREAT PLACE TO START. EXCEPT FOR YOU ALEX HAVE ALL BEEN WOMEN WRITERS. >> ALEX: IT IS REALLY INTERESTING THING. I THINK IT'S TRUE THOUGH. >> LIZ: I THINK WOMEN MAY BE MORE EXPERIENCED OR MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF FEELING THREATENED THAN MEN ARE. AND I THINK BECAUSE OF THAT, THAT MAY GIVE US, YOU KNOW, A CERTAIN EDGE IN WRITING STORIES LIKE THAT. WOULD I SAY JUST READ. READ WIDELY. YOU REALLY CAN'T READ TOO MUCH. AND IMMERSION YOURSELF IN THE WORKS OF A WRITER WHO YOU KNOW WITHSTOOD THE TEST OF TIME. BUT ALSO NEW WRITERS. TANNER FRENCH SHE DOES REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING THINGS IN HER WORK AND HAS SOME FLICKERS OF THE SUPER NATURAL WHICH I ALWAYS THINK IS REALLY INTERESTING TO FIND A IN "REALISTIC FICTION". STRAIGHT FICTION. >> PET A. WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF TIME. I WANT TO WIND UP ASKING BOTH OF US WHAT'S NEXT IF IT IS NOT TOO SOON TO ASK. >> >> ALEX: LIZ, WHAT ARE YOU WRITING? >> LIZ: I AM IN THE THROWS OF FINISHING THE FINAL REVISION ON A THRILLER, SUPER NATURAL PSYCHOLOGICAL THRILLER THAT WILL BE OUT NEXT YEAR CALLED "HOPE ALOWA ROAD" WHICH IS SET IN HAWAII. IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FOR ME BECAUSE IT HAS RAY SETTING THAT NOT COLD. IT'S NOT COLD AND DARK. SO THAT'S DIFFERENT. I FOUND IT KIND OF UNSETTLING. >> ALEX: THAT SOUNDS GREAT. >> LIZ: COMING FROM ME. >> IT IS SCAR YEAR WHEN IT IS IN THE BRIGHT SUNSHINE. >> ALEX: I HAVE A THRILLER ON A GREEK ISLAND. IT IS AN EXCUSE FOR ME TO WALK UP AND DOWN THE BEACH AND PRETEND THAT I AM WORKING. BUT I AM IN CASE MY EDITOR IS WATCHING. I AM WORKING. >> PETRA: WE WON'T TELL YOU ON YOU ARE WORKING. SO YEAH, WE ARE BASICALLY OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU SO MUCH ELIZABETH HAND AND ALEX MICHAELIDES. THANKS TO THE AUDIENCE FOR ALL OF YOUR GREAT QUESTIONS. AND YOU CAN KEEP ENJOYING EVENTS AT THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL IF YOU GO TO LOC.GOV/BOOKFEST. I'M PETRA WITH NPR BOOKS. THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US. >> LIZ: THANK YOU P PETRA AND ALEX. >> PETRA: IT WAS A WONDERFUL CONVERSATION I AM GOING GO READ SOME NOVELS. >> >> >> "FUZ: WHEN NATURE BREAKS THE NOVELS"FINDING THE MOTHER TREE: DISCOVERING THE WISDOM OF THE NO>> >> SUZAN MARYSPONSORED BY THE IF MUSEUM AND LIBRARY SERVICES. >> HI, EVERYONE. I'M SARAH KAPLAN. I'M A CLIMATE REPORTER AT THE WASHINGTON POST. WELCOME TO THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. I'M HERE WITH AUTHORIZE MARY ROACH AND SUZANNE SIMARD TO TALK ABOUT THEIR BOOKS "FUZ: WHEN NATURE BREAKS THE LAW" AND PREPONDERANCE. "FINDING THE MOTHER TREE: DISCOVERING THE WISDOM OF THE FOREST". BEFORE WE BEGIN I WANT TO LET YOU KNOW WE WILL SAVE THE LAST 10 MINUTES OF THE 30 MINUTE LIVE EVENT TO RESPOND TO AUDIENCE QUESTIONS. YOU CAN START SUBMITTING YOUR QUESTIONS NOW. TO GET STARTED WELCOME TO OUR 2 AUTHORIZE AND THE THEM OF THIS YEAR'S BOOK FESTIVAL IS OPEN A BOOK, OPEN THE WORLD. SO THE FIRST QUESTION I JUST WANTED TO ASK BOTH OF YOU IS IS THERE A READING EXPERIENCE OR A BOOK THAT HAS OPENED A NEW WORLD FOR YOU? WHY DON'T WE START WITH MARY >> >> MARY: JUST ABOUT ANY BOOK THAT I OPEN THE ONE THAT JUMPED TO MIND WAS A BOOK CALLED "THE FRUIT HUNTERS" WHICH IS A BOOK -- IT'S ABOUT FRUIT. WOULD YOU THINK FRUIT, I DON'T KNOW HOW INTERESTING COULD THAT BE. HE WAS TRAVELING JUST ALL OVER THE WORLD TAKING US INTO THIS -- THE FRUITS THAT WE EAT ARE A TINY PERCENTAGE LOOKING AT HOW THEY EVOLVED AND EVERYTHING FROM THE MARKET BEING AND IT IS JUST AN AMAZING -- I READ IT AWHILE AGO. IT IS AN EXAMPLE HOW YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING, FRUIT. YOU THINK YOU ARE LIKE FRUIT, PEACHES, APPLES. IT IS THIS WHOLE WORLD. THIS WORLD OPENS UP AND IT IS JUST AMAZING. IT IS NOT JUST NON-FICTION BUT FICTION AS WELL. THERE IS SO MUCH RESEARCH THAT GOES INTO FICTION AND YOU'RE STEPPING NO THIS WORLD EVERY TIME. THAT'S WHY I LOVE TO READ. >> SARAH: SUZANNE? >> SUZANNE: ONE OF MY FAVORITE BOOKS IS READING GRASS. A WOMAN WHO IS A PROPHET AT S SUNNY UNIVERSITY. SHE TEACHES BIOLOGY. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT HER BOOK IS I FOUND IS JUST HER WAY OF EXPRESSING THE WORLD VIEW OF ABO ORIGINAL PEOPLE AND HOW THEY ARE EMBEDDED IN OUR NATURAL WORLD AND THE PRINCIPLES BY WHICH THEY LIVE WHICH CLOUDS RESPECT WITH THE ENVIRONMENT RECIPROCITY, RESPONSIBILITY WHICH IS CONCEPT THAT'S WE THINK ABOUT BUT DON'T PRACTICE IN THE WESTERN WORLD. WE HAVE A LONG WAYS TO GO TO GET OUT OF OUR ENVIRONMENTAL CRISIS. WHAT SHE WRITES IS WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO TO ADOPT THIS KIND OF PHILOSOPHY ABOUT NATURE. NOT JUST A PHILOSOPHY BUT A WAY OF LIVING. A WAY OF BEING. A WAY OF RESPECTING. SO ANYWAY, I ENCOURAGE ANYBODY WHO IS INTERESTED IN GOING ON THE CLIMATE CRISIS AND THE BIO DIVERSITY CRISIS, READ THAT B BOOK. I THINK IT WILL REALLY OPEN UP A WHOLE NEW WAY OF SEEING THINGS. >> SARAH. BOTH OF YOU WROTE BOOKS ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD WHICH IS OUR WORLD THE ONES WE HUMANS INHABIT AND DON'T ALWAYS PAY CLOSE ENOUGH ATTENTION TO OR RECOGNIZE OUR ROLE IN. I'M WONDERING WHEN PEOPLE ROAD YOUR BOOKS, WHAT ARE YOU HOPING THEY WILL LEARN FROM YOUR EXAMINATIONS OF THE NATURAL WORLD? MARY, YOU WROTE ABOUT HUMANS AND WILDLIFE IN CONFLICT AND SUZ SUZANNE, YOURS IS ABOUT HUMANS LEARNING COLLABORATION FROM THE NATURAL WORLD. SO I'M CURIOUS WHAT LESSONS FROM THAT WORLD THAT IS ALSO OURS ARE YOU HOPING READERS WILL TAKE AWAY. SUZANNE, DO YOU WANT TO GO FIRST THIS TIME? >> SUZANNE: SURE. I GUESS THERE ARE LOTS OF TH THINGS. BUT YEAH, I MEAN IN AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY WHICH HAS -- BOTH OF THOSE HAVE ENORMOUS IMPACTS ON OUR WORLD IN READING OUR PLANET AND HOUSING AND CLOTHING. WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW ISN'T THAT SUSTAINABLE IF YOU WANT TO THINK OF SUSTAIN ABILITY. WE SEE THE EFFECTS OF THIS IN GLOBAL CHANGE. I WANTED TO -- THERE ARE JUST SOME FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES LIKE I WAS SAYING BEFORE THAT I THINK WE CAN ADJUST AND DO A MUCH BETTER JOB. ONE OF THE THINGS IN FO FO FORES THAT WE FORGET ABOUT THE COLLABORATIVE PART OF NATURE AND A LOT OF PRACTICES WE DO SPRING HERBICIDE S OUR GENETIC BREEDING PROGRAMS, JUST HOW WE PLANT AND GROW AND MARKET TREES AND FOOD PLANTS, IT IS NOT CONNECTED TO THE LAND. IT'S CONNECTED TO THESE IDEAS THAT ARE NOT REALLY WELL INVESTIGATED. WHAT WE REALLY NODE AND I HOPE THAT PEOPLE GET THIS FROM MY BOOK IS BY SPENDING TIME IN FORESTS ABDOMEN PRAIRIES AN ARCTIC TUNDRA, SEEING SMALL THINGS AND HOW THEY DRIVE THESE BIG BIO CHEMICAL CYCLES AND UNDERSTANDING THOSE IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL TO HOW WE GO ON AND APPLY PRACTICES. ONE OF THE BIG MISTAKES WE MADE WE HAVEN'T UNDERSTOOD THAT PLANTS HAVE MULTIPLE WAYS THAT THEY INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER. WE HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT FORESTS FOR EXAMPLE WHICH IS MY AREA, ARE STRUCTURED BY COMPETITION. YET THEY HAVE THESE INCREDIBLY COLLABORATIVE INTERACTIONS AS WELL. BY IGNORING THAT COLLABORATIVE PART BY GETTING RID OF THE PLANTS THAT WE THINK ARE COMPETITORS FOR EXAMPLE WE TEAR APART THESE ECO SYSTEMS AND SEND THEM ON A VERY DIFFICULT TRAJECTORY. ANYWAY, THAT IS THE MAIN -- ONE OF THE MAIN THINGS I WANT PEOPLE TO GET FROM MY BOOK. >> SARAH: MARY, IS THERE A LESSON FROM THE WORLD THAT YOU EXAMINED? >> MARY: HUMAN WILDLIFE CONFLICT PEOPLE USE THE WORD PEST OR NUISANCE, ANIMAL NUISANCE AND ANIMAL PEST. IT PUTS THIS CREATURE IN THE CONTEXT OF OUR LIVES AND WHAT WE NEED AND WHAT WE WANT. RATHER THAN LOOKING AT THIS CREATURE IT IS THIS INDEPENDENT BEAUTIFUL THING, I THINK THAT TERMINOLOGY TENDS TO GIVE US PERMISSION TO JUST CALL SOMEONE TO DEAL WITH IT WHETHER IT IS AN EXTERMINAT TOR OR TRAPPER AND IT WILL MAKE THE PROBLEM GO AWAY. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE CONF CONFLICTS, WE ARE THE CAUSE OF THAT. WE HAVE OFTEN BROUGHT ONE ANIMAL FROM ONE CONTINENT TO ANOTHER TO TRY TO SOLVE A PROBLEM THAT IS OFTEN OF OUR OWN MAKING. I WOULD JUST WANT PEOPLE JUST TO STOP AND THINK BEFORE THEY CALL THE PEST CONTROL PERSON OR SOMEONE TO TRAP A RACOON OR WHATEVER IT IS. OR IF THEY ARE HAVING TROUBLE WITH BARES BREAK NOTHING THEIR HOMES IF THEY LIVE IN THE MOUNTAINS. THERE ARE WAYS TO PREVENT THE CONFLICTS BEFORE THEY GET ROLLING. THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN DO. THERE ARE WONDERFUL RESOURCE THE HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES HAS A WEB PAGE WHAT TO DO ABOUT. SPECIES BY SPECIES, WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE ANIMAL AND WHAT IT'S DOING. OFTEN IT IS AN ISSUE PART OF THE YEAR. YOU CAN MAKE YOUR ENVIRONMENT -- YOU CAN SEAL IT OFF BETTER SO THEY ARE NOT GETTING IN. YOU CAN ELIMINATE THE THINGS THAT ARE ATTRACTING THEM. SO THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO TO CO--EXIST. SO I WOULD HOPE THAT PEOPLE -- THAT THAT'S THE GOAL TO COEXIST. I PUT A WILDLIFE CAMERA OUT IN MY BACKYARD I HAVE SQUIRRELS, SKUNK, POSSUMS AND ROOF RATS. I LOVE BRINGING IT IN AND SEEING WHAT THEY WERE UP TO IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. TO TURN IT INTO A POSITIVE THING AN NOT TO THINK OF IT -- TO DISMISS THESE ANIMALS IN OUR WORLD AS PESTS. >>> SARAH: I THINK ONE QUESTION THAT BOTH OF YOUR BOOKS ASKS IS WHAT DO PEOPLE CHOOSE THE NATURAL SYSTEMS THAT WE ARE A PART OF AND SUPPORT US AND YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WHEN THE NEEDS OR DESIRES OF PEOPLE COME INTO CONFLICT WITH THE NEEDS OF WILD CREATURES OR BEING OR TREES, LIKE HOW DO YOU WEIGH THOSE 2 THINGS AND WHAT HAPPENS IF WE PUT THE NEEDS OF PEOPLE SECOND? I'M WONDERING IN THE PROCESS OF RESEARCHING AN WRITING YOUR B BOOK, DID YOU COME ACROSS ANY EXAMPLES OF THAT HAPPENING THAT FELT LIKE IT WAS -- IT HAD A LESSON OR WAS SUCCESSFUL AND COULD BE REPLICATED BY THE WHOLE WORLD. IT SEEMS LIKE A DIFFICULT CHALLENGE. MAYOR, I AM THINKING ABOUT YOUR BOOK AND THE STORIES ABOUT BEAR CONFLICT AND CASE WHERE'S LIVES ARE LOST TO WILD CREATURES. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL A PERSON WELL, THIS IS THE BEAR'S HABITAT SO YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH THAT LOSS. YEAH, I'M CURIOUS IF YOU FOUND ANYTHING THAT FELT LIKE IT COULD POINT US IN THE DIRECTION OF ANSWERS. >> MARY: DO YOU WANT ME TO GO FIRST? >> SARAH. MARY, YOU CAN GO FIRST. >> MARY: YEAH, YEAH. I SPENT SOME TIME REPORTING IN INDIA WHERE THERE IS A BIT OF A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY. FOR EXAMPLE WITH ELEPHANTS, ELEPHANTS THIS CAME AS NEWS TO ME BECAUSE I HAD BEEN BROUGHT UP WITH DUMBO AND NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC. THE FACT THAT ELEPHANTS KILL 500 PEOPLE A YEAR IN INDIA CAME AS QUITE A SHOCK. AT PREACH IS QUITE DIFFERENT. IN INDIA IF SOMEONE A FAMILY MEMBER IS KILLED, THERE IS A GOVERNMENT -- THE GOVERNMENT COMPENSATES THE FAMILY. HOW PROMPTLY THEY DO THAT I CAN'T SAY. BUT THAT IS THE SYSTEM RATHER THAN DESTROYING THE ANIMAL. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, THERE IS A 3 STRIKES WITH HELPARDS. THEY HAVE HAD ISSUE WAS THEM KILLING SMALL CHILDREN. PREYING ON THEM IN THAT REGION. BUT AT PREACH WITH THE ELEPHANTS IS ALSO THERE IS A LOT OF PREVENTION THAT GOES ON. I TRAVELED WITH A RESEARCHER THAT GOES FROM VILLAGE TO VILLAGE AND PEOPLE SET UP ELEPHANT RESPONSE TEAMS. THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE TRAINED IN HOW TO -- WHEN AN ELEPHANT COMES INTO A VILLAGE OR GROUP THEY ARE SOCIAL ANIMALS AND BIG ANIMALS BIG GROUPS THEY CAN DO A LOT OF DAMAGE TO THE CROPS IN THE VILLAGES. AND WHEN PEOPLE JUST RUN OUT SCREAMING LIGHTING FIRE CRACKERS AND TORCHES THE ANIMALS GET FREAKED OUT AND DISPERSE AND LEAVE THE GROUP. THEY ARE LESS STABLE. IT'S DANGEROUS. SO THESE PEOPLE ARE TRAINED TO HANDLE THE SITUATION IN A SAFE WAY AND STEER THE ELEPHANTS AWAY SO NOBODY GETS HURT. AND THEY ARE WORKING ON A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT EARLY WARNING SYSTEMS. ONE OF THEM IS TO USE A SEISMIC MEASUREMENT, SEISMIC METER TO DETECT WHEN THEY ARE APPRO APPROACHING. IT IS AN EARTH QUAKE OR ELEPHANT IF THE METER GOES OFF. SO THERE ARE WAYS. YEAH, THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS TO DEAL WITH IT. ALSO BECAUSE THE ELEPHANT IS REVEERED AS AN ELEPHANT GOD SO THERE IS A BUILD IN REEF WEDNESDAY AND AFFINITY FOR THOSE CREATURES AND DIRE FOR THEM NOT TO BE HARMED. THAT'S TRUE WITH MONKEYS AS WELL THERE. SO THAT KIND OF INFORMED THE WHOLE APPROACH IN A LOVELY WAY. SO THAT TRIP WAS KIND OF INSPIRATIONAL IN THAT WAY. >> SUZANNE: THAT'S FASCINATING. I HAD NO IDEA THAT THEY WERE GOING TO USE SEISMIC TOOLS TO DETECT ELEPHANTS. THAT'S GENIUS. THAT'S AMAZING. I CAN TALK A LITTLE BIT HERE ON THE WEST COAST OF CANADA. AND I THINK IT'S PROBABLY TRUE IN THE U.S. AS WELL. I THINK EVERYBODY KNOWS IN THE WORLD THAT OUR WEST COAST SAN MONDAY POPULATIONS ARE AT INCREDIBLE RISKS RIGHT NOW. BASICALLY THE POPULATIONS HAVE GONE TO LEVELS THAT WE WORRY OR THAT THEY ARE ON THE EDGE OF E EXTINCTION. THIS IS A RESULT OF I GUESS EXPLOITATION SINCE THE COLO COLONIZATION OF NORTH AMERICA. I WANT TO SPOKE TO ANCIENT FISHING PRACTICE THAT'S ENHANCED SALMON POPULATIONS INSTEAD OF DRIVING THEM TO THE BRINK OF COLLAPSE. THERE ARE WAYS TO DO THIS. I THINK THAT WE CAN RECOVER THOSE POPULATIONS, I BELIEVE, IF WE PRACTICE THESE MORE HOLISTIC AND CAREFUL METHODS THAT HAVE RESPECT AND OBLIGATIONS TO LOOK AFTER THESE INCREDIBLE RESO RESOURCES. SO HERE IS ONE EXAMPLE. ALONG THE WEST COAST THERE WERE MANY ANCIENT FISHING TECHNOLOGIES THAT WERE CONSIDERED PASSIVE TECHNOLOGIES. FOR EXAMPLE FISHING WEARS. I WAS UP IN THE TERRITORY WHICH IS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF VANCOUVER ISLAND WHERE WE WERE LOOKING AT FISH WEARS WHERE FISH WEARS THAT WERE 800 YEARS OLD BASED ON CARBON DATING. THERE ARE ANCIENT TRAPS THAT DATE BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS, 10,000 YEARS. I WILL SPEAK TO THAT FOR A LITTLE BIT. THESE ANCIENT TITLE STONE TRAPS HAVE BEEN BUILT ALONG THE WEST COAST OF COLUMBIA ALONG S S SANM MONDAY SPAWNING STREAMS. ALL OF THOSE NATION AS LONG THE COAST. HOW IT WORKED WHEN THE TIDE -- THEY BUILT THOSE WALLS. THEY ARE WALLS THAT FOLLOW THE CONTOUR OF THE OCEAN. AS THE TIDE COMES IN AND THE TIDE GOES BACK OUT AGAIN, ON THE LOWEST EBB TIDE THE SAM MONDAY ARE TRAPPED BEHIND THESE STORM WALLS THE NATIONS WOULD HARVEST THE SAM MOND SAM SAMON AS THEY . THEY WOULD A LOAF THE MOTHER FISH UP GO UP SPRING. IT WAS A WAY OF MANAGING THE POPULATIONS. THEY PLAYED AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THIS. THEY FISHED FOR THES SAMMOND. THESE OLD MOTHER TREES KEPT THE REMAINS OF T OF SALMON. THE TREES GROW FASTER AND MODERATE THE TEMPERATURES AND PROVIDE FOOD THAT ACTUALLY HELPED T TREES. THE NATIONS WOULD OF COURSE WHEN THEY FISH FOR THE SALMON. THE INEDIBLE PARTS BACK TO THE RIVER TO ENHANCE THE NUTRIENT STATUS OF THE RIVER. THIS IS A CYCLE THAT IS A LOOP, A POSITIVE FEEDBACK LOOP WHAT THE PEOPLE DO ENHANCE WHAT THE SALMON DO WHICH ENHANCES THE BEARS AND THE FOREST AND IT GOES AROUND AND OWNED IN A FEEDBACK. WHEN COLNIZATION HAPPENED THEY E FEED.THE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT KNG WHAT WE ARE DOING OF OVER HARVESTING ESPECIALLY OF THE LARGEST FISH IS BORN OUT NOW IN OUR SALMON POPULATION. THERE IS SO MUCH WE CAN LEARN FROM THE OLD TECHNOLOGIES THAT WILL ACTUALLY HELP OUR MODERN POPULATIONS TO RECOVER. >> WE ARE TALKING AMID THE HUGE CRISIS FOR HUMANITY AND THE NATURAL WORLD CLIMATE CHANGE. HUMANS BURNING FOSSIL FUELS AND OTHER ACTIVITIES HAVE CLAIMINGED OUR PLANET FASTER THAN AT ANY OTHER POINT IN ITS HISTORY. I WONDER, YOUR BOOKS COME OUT IN THIS MOMENT WHERE THE EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ARE SO OBVIOUS. WE JUST HAD THE SUMMER THAT WAS DISASTROUS ON EVERY CONTINENT WITH DROUGHT FIRES IN THE WEST AND FLOODING FROM LOUISIANA TO NEW YORK AND ALL AROUND THE WORLD. I JUST -- I WONDER IF THERE IS SOMETHING FROM THESE BOOKS THAT YOU HOPE PEOPLE WILL BRING TO THIS MOMENT AND TO THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF CLIMATE CHANGE. WHAT WOULD YOU -- WHAT WOULD YOU WANT PE PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY? SUZANNE YOU GO FIRST. >> SUZANNE: TWO THINGS. OUR OLD GROWTH FOREST OF WHICH WE ARE LOSING RAPIDLY DUE TO HARVESTING NOT JUST IN NORTH AMERICA BUT SOUTH AMERICA IN THE AMAZON THESE OLD FORESTS ARE NOT REPLACEABLE THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE THE SAME. YET THEY ARE CARBON STORAGE HOT SPOTS. WE THINK WE CAN REPLACE THEM WITH PLANTATIONS THEY DON'T STORE AS MUCH CARBON. NOT EVEN CLOSE AND THE BIO DIVERSITY IS HAMMERED BY THIS. SO NUMBER 1 WE NEED TO STOP DOING THAT. WE ARE KILLING OURSELVES BY HARVESTING THESE OLD GROWTH FORESTS. SECONDLY FROM A FOREST PERSPECTIVE TO RESTORE WHAT WE HAVE DEGRADED. THESE ARE 2 VERY IMPORTANT THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO FACE AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT IF WE ARE GOING TO BOOT STRAP OURSELVES OUT OF GLOBAL CHANGE. >> MARY: THERE WERE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT I CAME ACROSS IN MY REPORTING. I WASN'T SETTING OUT TO WRITE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE PER SE. BUT IT KEPT COMING UP. I WAS SPENDING TIME WITH A RESEARCHER IN COLORADO. HE TALKED ABOUT A STUDY THAT HAD LOOKED AT WHEN TEMPERATURES RISE, HIBERNATION PERIODS FOR BLACK BEARS BECOME SHORTER. SO WITH EVERY I THINK IT WAS 2 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT INCREASE IN TEMPERATURE THAT IS A WEEK SHORTER HIBERNATION PERIOD. THERE WAS A PROJECTION TO LIKE 2050 IF THINGS CONTINUE THAT WOULD MEAN A SHORTER HIBERNATION BETWEEN 15 AND 40 DAYS. THAT IS 15 TO 40 DAYS MORE THAT BEARS WILL BE OUT ON THE LAND LOOKING FOR FOOD AND PEOPLE COMPLAINING ABOUT BEARS AND MORE CONFLICTS. THAT WAS GOING ON. THERE WERE YELLOW EYED PENGUINS A BEAUTIFUL BIRD. THERE IS ONLY A FEW THOUSAND OF THEM LEFT. ONE THING THAT IS GOING ON I WAS THERE BECAUSE TALKING ABOUT THE INTER PLAY BETWEEN INVASIVE SPECIES AND SOME OF THE FLIGHTED BIRDS. ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WAS GOING ON IS THEY FISH. THEY GO OUT EVERY DAY TO FISH TO GET FOOD TO FEED THEIR YOUNG. THEY ARE HAVING TO GO FURTHER AND FURTHER OUT. THE WATERS HAVE WARMED. THE FISH THAT THEY FEED ON HAVE MOVED INTO DEEPER WATERS SO THEY ARE HAVING TROUBLE. THEY CAN'T DIVE THAT DEEP. SO THEY ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY GETTING FOOD. SO EVERYWHERE YOU TURN THERE IS SOME EFFECTIVE CLIMATE CHANGE THAT YOU JUST -- IT'S EVER EVERYWHERE. I JUST FELT LIKE EVERY TIME I ASKED ABOUT SOMETHING PART OF THE ANSWER WAS CLIMATE CHANGE. >>> SARAH: I WANT TO MAKE SURE I MAKE TIME FOR QUESTIONS FROM THE FOLKS WASHING. WHEN ROBERT MCCOY ASKED A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS BUT BOTH ARE ON THE SAME TOPIC. BOTH OF YOU EXPRESS SO MUCH JOY IN THE NATURAL WORLD. HE WAS WONDERING DO YOU FIND THAT IT'S BEST TO BE OUTSIDE IN IT? IS THAT THE BEST WAY TO APPRECIATE IT? HOW DO YOU HELP PEOPLE WHO MAYBE ARE NOT -- DON'T HAVE EASY ACCESS OR THERE ARE BARRIERS BETWEEN THEM AND BEING OUT IN NATURE? HOW DO YOU HELP THEM APPRECIATE AND EXPERIENCE THAT? MARY, WHY DON'T YOU GO. >> MARY: WOW. YES, THE MORE YOU CAN BE OUT IN THE NATURAL WORLD JUST SPEAKING PERSONALLY, IT IS SUCH A BOND AND THERAPY. BALN TO BE IN NATURE AND TO EXPLORE NATE YOU ARE IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS AND DIFFERENT ECO SYSTEMS IS FOR ME THERE IS NOTHING LIKE IT. I DON'T KNOW FOR SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T HAVE EASY ACCESS, I'M NOT SURE. I DON'T HAVE A HANDY ANSWER. MAYBE SUZANNE DOES. >> SUZANNE: I GET TO SPEND A LOT OF TIME OUT IN THE FOREST BECAUSE I AM A FOREST RESE RESEARCHER. THAT'S MY WORLD. IT HAS BEEN MY WHOLE LIFE. BUT I THINK THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN DO EVEN IF YOU LIVE IN A BIG CITY. JUST CONNECTING WITH A TREE OR A PLANT IN YOUR LOCAL PARK MAKES A DIFFERENCE. JUST TO GO AND SIT WITH THAT TREE AND FEEL ITS PRESENCE AND HONOR ITS PRESENCE. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO TREES, ANY KIND OF PLANT OR CREATURE EVEN WATCHING ANTS CRAWLING AROUND IN THE SOIL IT CONNECTS YOU. THE MORE TIME YOU CAN DO THAT THE MORE YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH IT AND YOU WILL SEEK THOSE EXPERIENCES OUT. I THINK PROBABLY MOST EVERYBODY HAS GOT ACCESS TO EVEN ANANT. THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY. JUST START THERE AND JUST SPEND THE TIME AN ENJOY IT. >> SARAH. ANOTHER QUESTION FROM AN AUDIENCE MEMBER NAMED JEANETTE. EVER SINCE I FOUND OUT THAT TREES TALK TO EACH OTHER. DO WE HAVE ANY SCIENCE ON COMMUNICATION ON SPECIES IN THE ECOSYSTEM. EVEN THOUGH THAT FOCUSES ON SUSANSUSUSANNAS WORK AND WHAT WW ABOUT WHAT ANIMALS THINK. I THOUGHT BOTH OF YOU WOULD HAVE AN INTERESTING ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. >> I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT ANIMAL COMMUNICATION. I WILL TURN THIS OVER TO SUZ SUZANNE. >> SUZANNE: YOU KNOW, I THINK IF YOU WALK INTO AN ECOSYSTEM, ALL OF THESE CREATURES ARE WORKING WITH EACH OTHER. IT'S LIKE IMAGINE YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY AND HOW YOU HAVE THESE RELATIONSHIPS WITH ALL OF THESE FAMILY MEMBERS. THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT. THEY ARE ALL NUISANCE AROUND SOPHISTICATED AND COMPLEX. IT'S THE SAME THING IN THE FOREST OR ANY ECOSYSTEM WHERE YOU HAVE GOT LOTS OF CREATURES, POLINATORS, TREES, PLANT. THEY ARE IN A CONSTANT COMMUNICATION. THEY HAVE TO BE BECAUSE THEY ARE COMPLETELY INTER DEPENDENT, INTERTWINED. SO IN THE TREE WORLD NOW WE KNOW THAT THEY ACTUALLY LINK BELOW GROUND THROUGH FUNGAL NETWORK AND SHARE NOT JUST WATER AND C CARBON AND NYE TREE AGAIN AND INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR SPECIES HOW HEALTHY THEY ARE, HOW RICH OR POOR THEY ARE. THEY SHARE THIS INFORMATION TO ENHANCE THE VITALITY OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T HAVE OTHER WAYS. THAT'S COLLABORATION. THEY COMPETE WITH THEMSELVES SHADING EACH OTHER OR TAKING UP RESOURCE THAT'S MIGHT EXCLUDE ANOTHER SPECIES. BUT ULTIMATELY IT'S THE ECOSYSTEM THE HEALTH OF THE ECOSYSTEM THAT PROTECTS ALL OF THEM. SO THEY DO THIS BY BEING IN CONSTANT CONTACT, CONSTANT COMMUNICATION. >> SARAH. WE HAVE 3 MINUTES LEFT WHICH IS PROBABLY TIME FOR ONE MORE QUESTION. I THINK THIS IS ONE THAT BOTH OF YOU CAN ANSWER. BOTH OF YOUR BOOKS CONTAIN SOME REALLY HARD STORIES. SUZANNE YOU WRITE ABOUT FORESTS THAT HAVE BEEN CLEAR CUT AND D DOUSED WITH PEST A SIDES. MARY THERE ARE SOME HEART HEARTBREAKING DESCRIPTIONS OF I REMEMBER RATIRDALE RATIFICATIOND ANIMALS ON THE BRINK OF EXT EXTINCTION. HOW DO YOU BOTH AVOID DESPAIR WHEN EXPERIENCING AND WITNESSING THESE REALLY HARD THINGS. ONE MINUTE EACH STARTING WITH MARY. >> MARY: THAT'S A GOOD QUE QUESTION. AND I DIDN'T ALWAYS DO IT SUCCESSFULLY. BUT I THINK -- I TRY TO FOCUS A LITTLE BIT ON SOME OF THE MORE POSITIVE DEVELOPMENTS. THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE NOW TRYING TO WORK ON COEXIST ANSWER AND BRINGING TOGETHER THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AT LOGGER HEADS LIKE THE FAR FARMERS. THE RANCHERS AND HUNTERS AND THE ENVIRONMENTALISTS. BRINGING THEM INTO A ROOM TO SWEET AND ALSO MORE THAN TO SPEAK TO LISTEN AND TO TRY TO HERE WHAT EACH OTHER ARE SAYING AND UNDERSTAND AND COME UP WITH SOME KIND OF WAY FORWARD. AND FOR LEGISLATION TO COME OUT OF THESE DECISIONS RATHER THAN JUST SOMEONE IN THE BACK ROOM MAKING A DIFFERENCE. SO THE FACT THIS IS GOING ON AND THERE'S BEEN PEOPLE THAT RUN THESE ORGANIZATIONS SEEM TO BE OPTIMISTIC. IF THEY CAN BE A LITTLE OPTIMISTIC THEN I TRY TO HOLD ON TO THAT TOO. >> SUZANNE: I AGREE WITH MARY. GETTING PEOPLE IN THE SAME ROOM TO DISCUSS EVEN IF AREA AT ODDS IS THE WAY TO GO. WE COME UP WITH BETTER ANSWERS. I THINK WHAT MAKES ME HOPEFUL IS I HAVE BEEN STUDYING SYSTEMS ECO SYSTEMS FOR A LONG TIME AND SYSTEMS ARE RESILIENT SYSTEMS LIKE OUR NATURAL SYSTEMS WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO HEAL AND TO RECOVER FROM TRAVESTY GIVE THE STRONG RELATIONSHIP THE EXAM THAT HE WILL MARY IS TALKING ABOUT NOT BETWEEN THE ECOLOGICAL SYSTEMS BUT HUMANS AS ECOLOGIC CAL CREATURES THAT ARE WORKING WITH THEM TO HELP THEM RECOVER. WE HAVE INCREDIBLE POWER TO MAKE POSITIVE CHANGES. WE JUST NEED TO GET TOGETHER AND PUT OUR MINDS -- GET THE RIGHT LEGISLATION AND GET THE RIGHT POLICIES IN PLACE AND YOU CAN START TO SEE THE INSTRUMENTAL IMPROVEMENTS. >> SARAH: I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY THE PERFECT NOTE TO END ON UNFORTUNATELY THAT IS ALL OF THE TIME WE HAVE. THANK YOU SO MUCH MARY AND SUZANNE FOR YOUR INSIS AND THANK YOU TO EVERYONE IN THE AUDIENCE FOR THE QUESTIONS YOU CAN ENJOY THE BOOK FESTIVAL AT LOC.GOV/BOOKFEST I HOPE THAT YOU KEEP LEARNING >> THANK THANKS FOR HAVING US. >> THANK YOU >> SARAH: THANK YOU, GUYS. . >> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU, SARAH. >> KEEP LEARNING. >> >> >> "EVERYONE KNOWS YOUR MOTHER "EVERYONE K. >> SPONSORED BY THN DO YOU MEN FOR THE ARTS AND THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE HUMANITIES >> KEVIN: HI, EVERYONE WELCOME TO THE 202 IS LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. MY NAME IS KEVIN LARIMER. I AM THE EDITOR AND CHIEF OF POETS AND WRITERS. I AM HERE WITH PATRICIA ENGEL AND RIVKA GALCHEN TO TALK ABOUT THEIR NOVELS "INFINITE COUNTRY" AND "EVERYONE KNOWS YOUR MOTHER IS A WITCH". BEFORE WE BEGIN I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT WE WILL SAVE THE LAST 10 MINUTES OF THE 30 MINUTE LIVE EVENT TO RESPOND TO AUDIENCE QUESTIONS. YOU CAN SUBMIT YOUR QUESTIONS ON THE PAGE NOW IF YOU WOULD LIKE. IN THE MEANTIME I WANT TO THANK YOU BOTH RIVKA AND PATRICIA FOR JJOINING ME HERE. >> PATRICIA A. THANK YOU FOR HAVING US HERE. >> KEVIN >> CONDITION. THEY ARE DIFFERENT BUT ACCOMPLISHED RICHLY WOVENTALES THAT FOCUS ON FAMILIES. I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH A QUESTION FOR EACH OF YOU THAT I HOPE WILL GIVE SOME INDICATION TO THOSE AUDIENCE MEMBERS WHO HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS THIS DEEPLY REWARDING READING EXPERIENCE THAT AWAITS THEM. SO PATRICIA IF YOU DON'T MIND I WOULD LOVE TO START WITH YOU. "INFINITE COUNTRY" IS THIS BEAUTIFUL AND HEARTBREAKING STORY OF A COLOMBIAN FAMILY FRACTURED BY IMMIGRATION AND DEPORTATION AND THEIR EXPERIENCES OVER A 20 YEAR SPAN BEGINNING IN THE LATE 1990s. THE FAMILY IS MADE UP OF UNDOCUMENTED AND CITIZEN FAMILY MEMBERS WHICH ALLOWS TO YOU EXPLORE CITIZENRY, CONNECTIONS TO ONE'S HOME LAND, IMMIGRATION LAW AND THE AS ARBIT AWRINESS OF PHYSICAL BORDERS. IT IS A CLOSE ONE AT ONE SPECIFIC FAMILY. THEIR IMMIGRATION EXPERIENCE IS HARDLY UNIQUE. IN THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS YOU THANK THE FAMILIES THAT WILL SEE ASPECTS OF THEIR EXPERIENCE REFLECTED IN YOUR NOVEL. IF YOU COULD SPOKE TO THE VISION AND WHAT REAL LIFE STORIES YOU MAY HAVE DRAWN FROM FOR REAL INSPIRATION. >> >> PATRICIA: THIS FAMILY OF 5. THEY ARE A MIXED STATUS FAMILY TO SAY THAT THE PARENTS ARRIVED TO THE UNITED STATES ON TOURIST VISAS. BECAUSE OF LIFE HAPPENING JUST THE TURN OF EVENTS THEY DECIDE TO OVER STAY NOT WITH THE INTENTION OF EVER BEING IMMIGRANTS REALLY JUST AN ACCOMMODATION OF DAYS AN MONTHS AND YEARS AN THEN THEY HAVE A NEW LIFE IN A NEW COUNTRY. THEY HAVE A DAUGHTER THAT WAS BORN IN COLUMBIA. THEY WERE 2 CHILDREN BORN IN THE USE A U.S. AND THE YOUNGEST SENT BACK AND LIVES HER ENTIRE LIFE IN COLUMBIA. SO THIS IS A FAMILY SPLIT APART ACROSS 2 COUNTRIES WHO HAVE THEIR LIVES DEFINED AND CHALLENGED BY PAPERWORK THAT CHANGESSOR BY YEAR AND MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS ACCORDING TO DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIONS. AND IT SEEMS SO UNLIKELY TO SOME PEOPLE. SO COMPLICATE TODAY SOME PEOPLE. IN FACT, THIS IS THE SORT OF EXIST ANSWER THAT IS SO TYPICAL TO SO MANY. SO IT WAS NOT DIFFICULT FOR ME. I DIDN'T HAVE TO REACH VERY FAR REALLY FOR INSPIRATION BECAUSE I AM THE DAUGHTER OF COLUMBIA IMMIGRANTS. I HAVE BEEN RAISED AMONG IMMIGRANTS IN ABDOMEN IMMIGRANT COMMUNITY ALL MY LIFE. I HAVE KNOWN PEOPLE VERY CLOSE TO ME, SOME OF THE PEOPLE I LOVE MOST IN THIS WORLD AND ADMIRE MOST IN THIS WORLD FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD WHOSE LIVES HAVE BEEN CHALCHALLENGED FOR THESE SAME REASONS AND HAVE BEEN SEPARATED FROM THEIR FAMILIES FOR THE SAME REASONS. SO THIS IS A STORY THAT IS VERY CLOSE TO ME ALTHOUGH I HAVE TO SAY THIS FAMILY'S IMMIGRATION STORY IS NOT MY FAMILY'S IMMIGRATION STORY. MY PARENTS IMMIGRATION STORY IS DIFFERENT IN MATERIALS THERE IS COMMONALTY. THAT IS MY MOTHER'S HOMETOWN FOR EXAMPLE. I WANTED TO WRITE A STORY THAT REALLY REFLECTED WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE A FAMILIES THAT IN THE ACTIVE PROCESS OF I AM GR GREATING. MANY OF US WHO ARE CHILDREN OF IMMIGRANTS HAVE IMMIGRATION AS PART OF OUR PRESENT REALITY OR IN THE NOT TOO DISTANT PAST. EVEN THOUGH THIS IS A COUNTRY MADE UP OF IMMIGRANTS WHETHER THEY ARRIVED A LONG TIME AGO OR MORE RECENTLY, PEOPLE D DISASSOCIATED FROM THEIR IMMIGRANT ROOTS. I WANTED TO WRITE A STORY THAT REALLY SHOWS THE NUISANCES OF IT WHICH IT IS OFTEN VERY COMPLEX AN FULL OF DOUBT AND REGRET AND WONDERING IF YOU MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE. MAYBE YOU DIDN'T MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE AND IT IS A PROFOUND HOME SICKNESS AND LOSS ALMOST LIKE A DEATH. THAT'S WHAT I WITNESSED AMONG IMMIGRANTS MY ENTIRE LIFE. I WANTED TO WRITE INTO THAT SPACE IN A WAY THAT SHOWED ONE FAMILY'S COLLECTIVE EXPERIENCE BUT ALSO THE PRIVATE EXPERIENCE OF EACH FAMILY MEMBER AS A RESULT OF THAT EXPERIENCE. >> KEVIN >> KEVIN: IT'S SUCH A PROFOUND EXPERIENCE TO BE READING A STORY LIKE THIS IN YOUR NOVEL AND SEE IT BEING PLAYED OUT IN REAL LIFE ALL OVER OF COURSE. WHAT'S HAPPENING IN DEL RIO AND SO MANY REAL LIFE EXAMPLES OF EXACTLY WHAT YOU WROTE ABOUT. TURNING ON TO YOU RIVKA, IN EVERYONE KNOWS "EVERYONE KNOWS YOUR MOTHER IS A WITCH" WE ARE PLACED IN 17TH CENTURY GERMANY WHO COMES UNDER SUSPICION OF BEING A WITCH AND MUST ENDURE THE TRIAL THAT THREATENS HER LIFE AND THE LIVELIHOOD OF HER FAMILY WHICH INCLUDES HER SON THE MATHEMATICIAN KEPLER. THIS IS, IN FACT I PIECE OF HISTORICAL FICTION. THEY WERE REAL PEOPLE. RIVKA, IN THE ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS OF THIS TERRIFICALLY FUNNY AND HUMANE AN MOVING BOOK YOU HAVE NEVER ENJOYED WORK ON A BOOK AS MUCH AS THIS ONE. I WONDER IF YOU COULD SPEAK TO THE EXPERIENCE OF RESEARCHING AN WRITING THIS BOOK AND WHY IT WAS SO ENJOYABLE FOR YOU. >> RIVKA >> RIVKA. I NEVER THOUGHT I WOULD WRITE A BOOK OF HISTORICAL FICTION. I DIDN'T THINK I HAD A GIFT FOR IT. I CAME TO IT ACCIDENTALLY. IT SOUNDS LIKE EMOTIONAL BUT THE BOOK FORCE IT HAD SELF ON ME. I WAS READING A LOT OF NO NON-FICTION AND BIOGRAPHIES OF SCIENTISTS. AS I WAS READING THIS BIOGRAPHER OF KEPLER WHICH WAS ONE FROM AN ANGLE WHICH IS THE STORY OF HIS MOTHER'S WITCH TRIAL EVEN A HUNDRED YEARS LATER THEY KEPT TRYING TO CUT IT OUT OF HIS BIOGRAPHY. IT JUST SEEMED TO CLOSE TO ME. IT SEEMED LIKE I REALLY FELT LIKE THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO HAD ALMOST AN OVER -- ALMOST HAD TOO MUCH FAITH THAT WAS ACTUALLY TRUE AND REASON AND LOGIC AND THE TRUTH WOULD YIELD FOR THEM AND WOULD KEEP THEM SAFE AND WOULD KIND OF MAKE THE STRONGEST ARGUMENT. THAT WAS NOT THE WAY THAT IT WAS GOING TO PAN OUT. SO THAT -- SOMETHING ABOUT THAT WAS LIKE A BRIDGE FOR ME TO A LOT OF THE EMOTIONS OF BEING ALIVE IN THE PAST DECADE. SO THAT'S SORT OF HOW THE BOOK CAME TO ME. IT WAS FUN PARTLY BECAUSE I WAS RESEARCHING IT AND ALSO BECAUSE IS THIS FAMILY SEEMED LIKE A WONDERFUL FAMILY. THEY WERE PUT UNDER THE MOST TREMENDOUS STRESS. IT WAS NOT JUST THE STRESS OF YOUR MOTHER BEING TREATED IN A HORRIBLE WAY BUT THE STAIN OF HER BEING A WITCH OR POTENTIALLY BEING A WITCH CAST A PALL ON ALL OF THE CHILDREN. TO SEE THE WAY THEY MANAGED IT AND, IN FACT, HISTORICALLY THERE IS EVERY INDICATION THAT THEY MANAGED IT QUITE ADMIRABLELY. SO THAT ADDED THIS KIND OF ELEMENT OF JOY TO WHAT WAS A VERY SAD STORY. BUT IT FELT LIKE ALSO A KIND OF JOYFUL STORY TO THINK ABOUT BECAUSE THEY WERE SUCH A REMARKABLE EMOTIONALLY REMARKABLE ON TOP OF THE SUN BEING ONE OF THE GREATEST MATHEMATICIANS OF ALL TIME. BUT IT WAS A FAMILY THAT WAS POOR. A FAMILY THAT CAME FROM NOWHERE THAT HAD TO FACE A LOT OF TROUBLES AND THAT NATURAL STRENGTH WAS ITS OWN KIND OF JOY AS WERE OF COURSE JUST ALL DETAILS AT A TIME THAT WAS SO FAR AWAY BUT ALSO SO CLOSE. YOU SEE THE KIND OF ARGUMENTS THAT WOULD BE SET UP IN COURTS THAT WERE LIKE A BAR FIGHT TODAY AND SOMEONE'S EGO BEING HURT. IT WAS HUMOROUS IN THAT HORRIBLE WAY WHERE YOU THOUGHT ALL OF THIS KIND OF PETTINESS AND BRUISED EGO AND WASTED ENERGY IT IS JUST ETERNAL. IT WAS REALLY FUN TO WORK ON. >> KEVIN: DID YOU FIND YOURSELF STRAYING FROM THE ACTUAL FICTIONAL FACTS OF THE CASE? DID YOU FEEL LIKE YOU NEEDED TO STICK TO EXACTLY HOW IT LAPPED OR HOW MUCH FREEDOM DID YOU FEEL LIKE YOU HAD WITH THAT? >>> RIVKA: CATARINA WAS ILLITERATE. WE WAS NO RECORD OF HER VOICE. THERE WAS A HUGE VOID THAT NEEDED TO BE WRITTEN INTO. I DID PLAY WITH THE HISTORICAL TRUTH IN THE SENSE THAT IT WAS ACTUALLY EVEN WORSE THAN I PUT IT IN THE BOOK. THE REASON I WANTED TO CHANGE THAT WAS BECAUSE I FELT THAT SHE WAS ACTUALLY UNDER TRIAL FOR 6 YEARS. ALTHOUGH I AM ACCURATE ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK I WAVE MY HANDS SO YOU DON'T QUITE NOTICE THAT 6 YEARS HAVE GONE BY. DID I THAT BECAUSE I WAS CONSCIOUS AND I KNOW KNOW TO AVD THAT SENSE OF LURID ENJOYMENT OF HORRIBLE SITUATIONS. I KNOW THIS WOMAN COULDN'T TELL HER STORY THIS WAY. THEY WOULDN'T TELL THEIR STORY THIS WAY. THEY WILL COVER UP THEIR SUFFERING EVEN AS THEY REVEAL IT. I DIDN'T WANT THE BOOK TO EMPHASIZE IN A MORALLY WRONG WAY LOCK HOW HORRIBLE IT WAS. IT WAS SO HORRIBLE. IT WAS SO HORRIBLE SO IT WAS A PORNOGRAPHY OF MYSTERY. THAT IS NOT THE WAY THE VOICES WILL TELL THAT STORY. I DID A BIT OF HAND WAVING EVEN THOUGH I DID LITERALLY STICK TO THE RECORD IN TERMS OF THE ORDER I TOLD IT IN. >> KEVIN: THAT'S REAL INTERESTING. ONE THING I NOTICED ABOUT BOTH OF THESE NOVELS IS THAT THE CHARACTERS USE ORAL STORIES TO CONVEY SOME OF THE THEMES THAT RUN THROUGHOUT. RIVKA FOCUS FOLKLORE LIKE THE CROW THAT BECAME THE KING OF BIRDS. PATRICIA IN "INFINITE COUNTRY" YOU USE TRADITIONAL KNOWLEDGE TO CONVEY SO MUCH ABOUT THE MOVEMENTS OF YOUR CHARACTERS. BOTH INTERNALLY AND ACROSS PHYSICAL BORDERS. I'M WONDERING IF YOU COULD BOTH SPEAK TO THE USE OF STORIES WITHIN THE STORY AND HOW YOU COMPILED THEM. PATRICIA DO YOU WANT TO START WITH THAT? IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU NEWS THESE END JANUARY MYTHS AND WANTED TO USE THEM OR SOMETHING THAT YOU DISCOVERED THROUGH YOUR RESEARCH AND THE PROCESS OF WRITING IT >> >> PATRICIA A. IT IS A BIT OF A COMBINATION OF ALL OF THOSE THINGS YOU MENTIONED. MY MOTHER IS FROM THE REGION. HER FAMILY HAS BEEN THERE FOR AGES. A LOT OF THE STORIES THAT ARE PARTICULAR TO THAT REGION ONE OF THE 4 CIVILIZATIONS OF THE AMERICA'S, A LOT OF THOSE STORIES I GROUP WITH BECAUSE OF MY MOTHER. OVER THE YEARS SPENDING MORE TIME IN COLUMBIA. I LEARNED MORE. MY CURIOSITY AS A WRITER ONE THING LEADS TO ANOTHER. TRAVEL AROUND THE COUNTRY I LEARNED MORE OF THE MYTHOLOGY THAT IS NOT SPECIFIC TO THE REGION OF WHA. OTHER REGIONS OF THE COUNTRY. THOSE CAME TO ME THROUGH MY HERITAGE AND MY CURIOSITY. AS I WAS PUTTING TOGETHER OR FIGURING OUT HOW TO TELL THE STORY OF THIS FAMILY, I REALIZED THOSE ARE STORIES THAT HAVE BEEN IMPORTANT IN MY MIGRATION STORY. AS I HAVE GOTTEN OLDER, I HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND IN A DIFFERENT WAY HOW STORIES IN THE CASE OF IMMIGRANTS AS I MENTIONED PEOPLE WHO HAVE IT IN THEIR RECENT FAMILY HISTORY, YOUR STORIES ARE OFTEN THE ONLY THING THAT YOU TAKE WITH US WHEN YOU I AM GREAT. THEY ARE VERY QUICKLY LOST ALMOST AS QUICK AS LANGUAGE IS LOST FROM ONE GENERATION TO THE NEXT IF YOU DON'T REPEAT THEM AND SHARE THEM CONSTANTLY. WE ARE OUR STORIES ARE CONSTANTLY AT THE THREAT OF E EXTINCTION. SO I HAVE FELT MUCH MORE OF A SENSE OF PURPOSE AND CONNECTION TO THOSE STORIES THAT WE DO STILL HAVE. YOU CAN IMAGINE WE HAVE THOSE BUT ALSO IMAGINE HOW MUCH WAS LOST IN THE WAY THAT I JUST DESCRIBED. ALSO AN INTERESTING PARALLEL FOR ME IS ALWAYS WHEN YOUR FAMILY, YOUR PARENTS OR MAYBE YOUR GRANDPARENTS OR MAYBE YOU WERE THE ONE THAT CREATE THAT HAD RUPTURE BETWEEN THE COUNTRY THAT WAS LEFT AND THE NEW COUNTRY WHERE YOUR FAMILY IS MAKING A LIFE OR YOU ARE MAKING A LIFE. YOU HAVE DISRUPTED FAMILY HISTORY. THE NEXT GENERATION WILL BE DIFFERENT AS A RESULT OF THAT DECISION OR I INDECISION OR CIRCUMSTANCE THAT CREATED THAT MOVEMENT. SO THAT IN ITSELF BECOMES A MYTHOLOGY IN A FAMILY. I KNOW THAT I KNOW THE STORY OF MY FAMILY. I KNOW IT SO WELL, AS WELL AS I KNOW A MYTH. AS WELL AS I KNOW OTHER KINDS OF HISTORY. THAT BECOMES FAMILY LORE. FAMILY MYTH. IT IS THE STORY THAT YOU REPORT SO YOU UNDERSTAND YOURSELVES SO YOU KNOW HOW YOU GOT HERE. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. YOU KNOW WHO YOU WERE. BECAUSE THE THING IS WHEN YOU COME TO A NEW COUNTRY THERE ARE NO REMINDERS. YOU LEAVE EVERYTHING. YOU LEAVE YOUR HOME, FAMILY, FRIENDS EVERYTHING THAT TOLD YOU WHO YOU WERE. AS IF YOU COULD FORGET. OF COURSE IN A NEW COUNTRY THERE IS NO ONE TO TELL YOU WHO YOU ARE EXCEPT YOUR STORIES. >> KEVIN: THAT IS BEAUTIFUL. I LOVE THAT THROUGH GENERATIONS IS THE ONE THING THAT KICKS EVERYONE. RIGHT? THAT'S GREAT. RIVKA, WHAT ABOUT THE STORIES THAT YOUR CHARACTERS TELL? >> RIVKA: WHEN I WAS READING PATRICIA'S BOOK I WAS VERY MOVED BY THOSE STORIES. IT IS THE STORY AND YOU THINK TO YOURSELF WHO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT WERE TELLING THIS STORY AND NOT ANOTHER STORY. WHY DID THEY TELL IT THIS WAY AND NOT ANOTHER. WHICH DETAILS ARE PROMINENT AND HOW DID IT GET RETOLD AND CHANGED? KIND OF A MESSAGE FROM THE PAST AND FROM THE PAST STORY TELLERS. SOMETIMES A MORE DURABLE MESSAGE THAN A STRAIGHTFORWARD NO NON-FICTION ACCOUNT WHAT HAVE HAPPENED. THEY HAVE DIFFERENT POWERS. THERE IS A VERY SPECIAL POWER DENSITY AND REDUCTION IN MYTHS AND FOLKTALES AND FAIRY TALES THAT DENSITY IS AMAZING. ONE OF MY MAIN NARRATORS IS 70 YEARS OLD F FOR FOR MOST OF THE THE BOOK AND I WILL LITERATE. IT WAS GENERALLY OLDER WOMEN THAT WERE TELLING THESE STORIES. ALL OF THE STORIES LIKE THE FAIRY TALES THEY WERE WRITING DOWN STORIES THAT THE OLD WOMEN IN THEIR LIFE HAD TOLD THEM. THAT WAS HOW IT WENT. THERE WAS A BEAUTIFUL STORY HOW THE GRIM BROTHERS ARE STAKED OUTSIDE OF THE OLD AGE HOME. THEY KNEW THERE WAS A WOMAN THERE THAT HAD A LOT OF FAITH STORIES SHE DIDN'T WANT TO TELL THEM. THE STORIES WERE IN HER MIND FOR GIRLS ALMOST A SECRET FEMININE LINE OF TRANSMISSION. SHE KNEW THEY WERE TRYING TO COLLECT STORIES. THEY PAID LIKE A YOUNG GIRL WHO WAS A MAID IN THE OLD AGE HOME AND BASICALLY ASKED LETTER TO IS WILL EN TO THE STORIES AND TRY TO REMEMBER AS MUCH AS SHE COULD AND SHARE THEM. I HAD THAT IN MIND WITH HER BECAUSE I THOUGHT LOCK, IT JUST SEEMED TO ME THAT THERE WAS A WOMAN WHO WAS VERY INTELLIGENT, VERY CAPABLE. SHE WAS WIDOWED EARLY ON. SHE HAD TO MAKE HER OWN MONEY AT A TIME WHEN IT REALLY WASN'T APPROPRIATE. THERE WERE A LOTS OF WAYS IN WHICH WOMEN EARNING THEIR OWN MONEY WAS SUSPICIOUS AND BEING YOU WILL HAVE UNDERRABLE WOMAN MADE IT SUBPOENA SPACIOUS. SUSPICIOUS IT SEEMED NATURAL THAT HER STORIES WAS A WAY OF PASSING ON HER ADVICE. THAT WAS MORE THE WAY THINGS WERE TOLD THAN DIRECTLY. I FEEL PART OF WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT STORIES THERE ARE THINGS THAT FOR WHATEVER REASON ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL EXACTLY MAYBE BECAUSE THEY ARE PAINFUL AN MAYBE BECAUSE THEY ARE FORBIDDEN AND SUBCONSCIOUS. THE STORY DOES THIS AMAZING TRANSFORMATIVE MAGIC. I FELT THAT A LOT WHEN I WAS READING PATRICIA'S BOOK AS WELL. YOU SEE HOW THE REALITY WAS TRANSFORMED NO THIS MORE DURABLE FORM THAT COULD TRAVEL ACROSS TIME AND BEHOLD AND RETOLD AND PEOPLE COULD ADD THEIR OWN WAY OF RELATING TO THE STORY WHEN THEY RETOLD THE STORY. IT WAS JUST VERY CLEAR TO ME THIS OLDER WOMAN IS GOING TO BE A PERSON THAT RELATES HER EXPERIENCES IN THIS WAY. >> KEVIN: RIGHT. THAT'S GREAT. IT IS A NICE TRANSITION TO THE NEXT QUESTION WHICH IS -- HAS TO DO WITH THE THEME OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL THIS Y YEAR, OPEN A BOOK, OPEN THE WORLD. SO THE QUESTION IS, HOW HAVE BOOKS OPENED THE WORLD FOR YOU? PATRICIA, DO YOU WANT TO MAYBE START? >> PATRICIA A. SURE. WELL, YOU KNOW IN THE OLD DAYS I WAS A COLUMBIA GIRL GROWING UP IN NEW JERSEY. I FELT A BIT ISOLATED. I DIDN'T SEE ANY COL COLUMBIA GS IN NEW JERSEY FROM THE BOOKS I READ. I WAS A BIG REARED. I LOVED BOOKS, BUT THERE WERE A LOT OF BOOKS THAT SPOKE TO ME IN DIFFERENT WAYS BUT THERE WAS NEVER THE BOOK THAT REFLECTED ANY KIND OF REALITY THAT I IDENTIFIED WITH. BUT SOME OF THOSE BOOKS THAT SPOKE TO ME IN VERY PROFOUND WAYS THAT ARE PROBABLY STILL THE BOOKS THAT ARE THE MOST PART OF MY WRITER DNA BECAUSE THEY OPENED THE WORLD TO ME AND SHOWED ME A WORLD MUCH BIGGER THAN THE ONES THAT I KNEW WERE WRITERS WHO WERE WRITING IN SOME FORM OF EXCILE OR WRITING AS OUTSIDERS IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. SOME OF THOSE WERE ALBERT, MARGARET, MAURICE. SO A LOT OF THESE WRITERS WERE DISPLACED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. OF COURSE I WAS TOO YOUNG TO RECOGNIZE THAT. I JUST FELT SOMETHING. I JUST CONNECT TODAY SOME SORT OF QUALITY IN THEIR PROS OR IN THEIR POINT OF VIEW THAT I CONNECTED TO. AND THAT IN ITSELF JUST OPENED THE WORLD OF POSSIBILITIES TO ME IN WHAT COULD EXIST NOT ONLY WHAT EXISTED IN HUMANITY AND WHAT EXISTED IN ART AND WHAT COULD BE DONE. AND WHAT SORT OF VOICE COULD CLAIM A SPACE FOR ITSELF ON THE PAGE. >> KEVIN: THAT'S GREAT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING THAT. RIVKA, DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER HOW BOOKS HAVE OPENED THE WORLD FOR YOU? >> RIVKA: I FEEL SIMILAR TO PATRICIA. I ACTUALLY GREW UP INTO IN A BOOK HOUSEHOLD NOT A LOT OF BOOKS. A CHILD OF IMMIGRANTS. I GREW UP IN OAKLAHOMA. MY FATHER WAS BORN IN PALESTINE AND ISRAEL. I JUST LIKE I DIDN'T ARTICULATE IT I DID HAVE THIS SENSE -- THAT I WAS RUNGRY TO KNOW MORE OF THE WORLD EVEN THOUGH I THINK I HAD AN IDEAL I CAN CHILDHOOD IN MANY WAYS. FOR ME IN A FUNNY WAY I REMEMBER SOME OF THE BOOKS THAT WERE MEANINGFUL TO ME WHEN MY BROTHER WAS 6 MONTHS OLDER. NOT A ROARED A TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAY OF EXPANDING OUT INTO THE WORLD. SO BASICALLY WHEN HE WENT TO COLLEGE AND THEY FORCED HIM TO TAKE ONE CALC CLASS WE READ BOOKS INSTEAD OF MANIPULATED NUMBERS. HE SENT THEM TO ME AND LET ME KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. THOSE BOOKS SEEMED EXTREMELY CHARGED. I FELT LIKE I WAS OUT OF MY AGE GROUP AND HAD ACCESS. I REMEMBER THE COPIES HE GAVE ME THE GREAT MASS MARKET PAPER BACK MALL CON X. GREAT MASS MARKET MADAM BOVRY. THEY ARE NOT LIKE THE ONLY BOOKS THAT OPENED THE WORLD I REMEMBER THE SENSE GRADUATING WHAT WAS AVAILABLE NEXT NEXT TO ME AND INTO THESE -- THEY ALMOST FEEL LIKE TELEA.M. OTHER WAYS. THEY JUST FELT ENORMOUS. THE THING ABOUT A BOOK I LOVE S THAT YOU FEEL LIKE IT DROPS IT IN WATER IT REVEALS IT IS ENORMOUS ONCE YOU HYDRATE IT. THAT WAS JUST -- IT IS STILL THE WAY I RELATE TO THE WORLD BEST. OFTEN THERE IS A SENSE OF OH, IS THAT LIKE A SCREEN IN AM I SPENDING MY TIME IN A SCREEN? BUT INSTEAD IT FEELS LIKE A PASSPORT I GUESS. IT FEELS LIKE YOU GET PERMISSION TO GO PLACES THAT ARE OTHERWISE NOT NECESSARILY AVAILABLE TO Y YOU. >> KEVIN: I PASSPORT I LOVE THAT. A PASS BOARD TO THE WORLD. THANK YOU. I THINK WE WILL MOVE OVER TO AUDIENCE QUESTIONS NOW. WE MAY NOT GET TO ALL OF THE GREAT QUESTIONS SUBMITTED. WE WILL CERTAINLY TRY OUR BEST. WE HAVE ONE FROM ROBERT WHO ASKS HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR YOUR STORIES AND CHARACTERS TO HAVE RELATABLE EXPERIENCES? THEN HE GOES ON TO SAY IMMIGRATION TODAY IS RELATABLE. WITCH CRAFT IS NOT AS MUCH. IS THIS IMPORTANT? >> I DO THINK A BOOK OPENS UP IF YOU FEEL THERE IS SOME BRIDGE INTO IT. I THINK THAT IS SO PERSONAL. IN A WEIRD WAY I HAVE NEVER BEEN PERSECUTED AS A WITCH I FELT I RELATED HER MORE THAN OTHERS AROUND ME JUST BECAUSE THAT SENSE OF BEING IN PERILLESS TROUBLE AND YOU DON'T FEEL VERY HOPEFUL HOW TO GET OUT OF IT. I JUST THINK THAT'S SO PERSONAL. I ACTUALLY DID START WRITING THAT BOOK BECAUSE OF PEOPLE CLOSE TO ME IN SITUATION THAT'S SEEMED LIKE LOGIC, REASON AND FACTS WERE NOT ON THEIR SIDE. EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD LOGIC REASON AND FACTS ON THEIR SIDE, THAT WAS INSUFFICIENT. THAT EXPERIENCE WATCHING PEOPLE SUFFER IN THAT WAY WAS WHY I CONNECT TODAY THIS STORY. >> KEVIN: RIGHT. THAT'S THE WHOLE REASON WE READ BOOKS OR READ NOVELS. YOU MAY NOT RELATE EXACTLY TO THE SPECIFIC EXPERIENCES OF THE CLARKS, BUT YOU ARE LOOK FOG ARE THAT SORT OF UNIVERSAL HUMAN CONNECTION THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO FEEL EMPATHY AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. RIGHT? PATRICIA, IT SEEMS TO ME LIKE WHEN I WAS READING YOUR NOVEL, THERE IS HUMAN EXPERIENCE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE FAMILY IS TORN APART AND BASED ON THESE SOMEWHAT ASH TEARY LAWS THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU CAN'T RECONNECT WITH YOUR FAMILY MEMBER. I DON'T KNOW. THERE IS A HUMAN ELEMENT TO THAT THAT ANYONE COULD CONNECT WITH. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO SPOKE TO THAT. >> PATRICIA: YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED A LOT OF PEOPLE CAN'T. A LOT OF THAT DOESN'T FALL ON WRITER. A LOT OF THAT FALLS ON THE READER. SOMETIMES THERE ARE THINGS THAT I WOULD THINK OR ANYONE WOULD THINK HOW COULD YOU NOT RELATE IN SOME WAY JUST ON A HUMAN LEVEL OR SOMETHING. SOME PEOPLE DON'T. SOME PEOPLE HAVE A HARDER TIME LOOKING BEYOND THEIR SPHERE OF EXPERIENCE. I THINK SOMETHING THAT CERTAINLY I NEVER EXPECTED OR NEVER COULD HAVE PREDICTED IS THAT MY BOOK WAS RELEASED DURING THE PANDEMIC WHEN MOST AMERICAN FAMILIES GOT A TASTE FOR THE FIRST TIME OF WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE SEPARATED FROM THEIR LOVED ONES FOR REASONS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL. NOT BECAUSE OF LAWS OR PAPERWORK PER SE BUT BECAUSE OF THINGS LIKE QUARANTINES AND RISKS OF INFECTING THEM AND DEATH AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS THAT WE WERE NOT PREPARED FOR AND THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO COPE WITH. THOSE ARE THINGS THAT A LOT OF FAMILIES LIKE THE FAMILY IN MY NOVEL LIVE WITHER AFTERROR AFTER YEAR NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE YOUR DEAR ONES FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS TO CELEBRATE HOLIDAYS. TO BE THERE WHEN THEY ARE ILL, IN THE HOSPITAL, TO ATTEND FUNERALS TO SAY GOOD-BYE. A LOT OF AMERICANS EXPERIENCE THAT IN THE PAST YEAR AND A H HALF. AND I THINK MAYBE FOR SOME PEOPLE THAT SHIFTED SOMETHING IN HOW THEY CAN READ A STORY LIKE "INFINITE COUNTRY". BUT REALLY THAT'S EN TORELY UP ENTIRELY UP TOTHE READER. >> KEVIN: OF COURSE. I HAVE A QUESTION FROM ANNA. I'M A HUGE FAN OF YOU BOTH. ARE YOU WORKING ON ANYTHING NEW YOU CAN SHARE? WHAT'S NEXT? >> IN MY CASE I HAVE A SHORT STORY COLLECTION COMING OUT NEXT YEAR CALLED "THE FAR AWAY WO WORLD". THEN I AM IN THE VERY, VERY EARLY, EARLY STEPS OF A NEW NOVNOVEL. >> KEVIN: THAT'S EXACTLY. >> RIVKA I'M EXCITED FOR THAT. I AM WORKING ON A NON-FICTION BOOK ABOUT THE LIVES OF SCIENTISTS WHICH WAS WHAT I WAS WORKING ON BEFORE I INTERRUPTED THE NOVEL. HOPEFULLY I WILL BE INTERESTED AGAIN. MY PLAN IS TO KEEP WORKING ON THAT. >> KEVIN: OKAY. I WANTED TO ASK AS LONG AS THIS IS THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL, WE WOULD BE REMISS IF WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT RIDING A LITTLE BIT TOO. I WANT TODAY ASK WHAT ARE YOU BOTH READING THESE DAYS? DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR OUR AUDIENCE? MAYBE THE LAST BOOK THAT REALLY BLEW YOU AWAY. RIVKA I JUST FINISHED "WHEN WE SEE THE WORLD". IT DID BLOW ME AWAY. IT WAS ONE OF THESE BOOKS IS THIS AN ESSAY, IS THIS A NOVEL? I DON'T KNOW THE VOICE IS OVERWHELMING AN COMPELLING. EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T A PLOT IN THE WAY THAT I OFTEN RELATE TO IN A VICTORIAN NOVEL OR ALL SORTS OF NOVELS, YOU KNOW, I READ IT IN ONE BIG GULP. THAT WAS SOMETHING I LOVED. >> KEVIN. WHAT WAS THE TITLE? >> RIVKA: WHEN WE CEASE TO UNDERSTAND THE WORLD. >> KEVIN: PATRICIA? >> PAT TRACE A: THE PRESIDENT AND THE FOG AND LAUREN GROFF'S NEW ONE AND ENJOYING IT. >> KEVIN: THE MAY ATRIX. >> PATRICIA: I'M NOT SURE IF IT IS MATRIX. >> KEVIN: I STAND CORRECTED. GREAT. >> PATRICIA A. OKAY. >> KEVIN: I WILL JUST PUT O A SHOUT OUT FOR ANTHONY DOORS HIS NOVEL COMES OUT IN A WEEK CALLED "CUCKOO LAND". REALLY GREAT. I AM REALLY SORRY BUT WE ARE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU SO, SO MUCH PATRICIA AND RIVKA FOR SHARING YOUR TIME WITH US GENEROUSLY AND THANKS TO THE ENTIRE AUDIENCE FOR YOUR QUESTIONS. YOU CAN LEARN MORE ABOUT THE AUTHORIZE AND ENJOYING THE NATIONAL FOOD BOOK FESTIVAL AT LOC.GOV/BOOKFEST. THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> THANK YOU, BYE. >> THANK YOU EVERYONE, SEE YOU. "THE SUM OF US: WHAT FACISM COSSTS EVERYONE AND HOW WE CAN ESPONSORED BY THE JAMES MADISONL ENDOWMENT FOR THE HUMANITIES >> ERIN: GOOD EVENING EVERYBODY APRIL WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL I'M ERIN HAINES EDITOR AT LARGE. THIS EVENING I AM THRILLED TO BE WITH HEATHER MCGHEE TO TALK ABOUT HER AMAZING BOOK PREPONDERANCE. BOOK "THE SUM OF US: WHAT RACISM COSTS EVERYONE AND HOW WE CAN PROSPER TOGETHER". I AM SO HAPPY TO SHARE A SCREEN WITH YOU THIS EVENING AND TUBING ABOUT WHAT COULD BE A MORE URGE EN TOPIC. >> HEATHER: THANK YOU SO MU MUCH,ER I INAND THANK YOU TO TE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FOR INVITING US INTO THIS CONVERSATIONS. >> ERIN: AND CONGRATULATE YOU FOR A BOOK AWARD LONG LISTER THAT WAS MADE OFFICIAL YEST YESTERDAY. >> HEATHER: THANK YOU SO MUCH. I'M KIND OF IN SHOCK AND SUPER EXCITED. THE LIST IS FULL OF SOME OF THE MOST PROFOUND AND IMPACTFUL BOOKS THAT I READ THIS YEAR. I FEEL REALLY HONORED TO BE INCLUDED. >> ERIN: PROFOUND IS HOW I WOULD DESCRIBE YOUR BOOK. YOU BELONG ON THAT LIST. I AM THRILLED THAT PEOPLE AGREE. I WANT TO START ABOUT ASKING YOU A LARGER QUESTION. THE THEME OF THE NATIONAL FOOD FEST IS OPEN A BOOK, OPEN THE WORLD. I WANT TO ASK, HOW BOOKS OPENED THE WORLD FOR YOU? >> >> HEATHER. HOW DIDN'T THEY. I AM A BOOK NERD. I WAS EXTROVERTE DID I WAS AN INTRAVERTED KID. I REMEMBER BEING IN THE BACK STREET COMING HOME READING FROM THE STREETLIGHT. I WAS ALWAYS INTO SPECKIVE FICTION, SCIENCE FICTION, FANTASY, ALL OF THESE WORLDS THAT I COULD GO TO TO IMAGINE A DIFFERENT WORLD. I THINK THAT REALLY SHAPED THE HORIZON OF WHAT I THOUGHT WAS POSSIBLE AS I GREW UP AND BECAME AN ACTIVIST AND REALLY STILL BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF THE IMAGINATION AND THE POWER OF BOOKS TO CREATE EMPATHY, THE POWER OF BOOKS TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND MAKE YOU SEE THINGS IN A DIFFERENT WAY. THAT'S WHAT I HOPED TO DO WITH THE SUM OF US. THAT'S WHY IT WASN'T THE SAME AS RUNNING A THINK TANK WHICH I USED TO DO AND LOBBYING AND TRYING TO CRAFT LEGISLATION. I FELT LIKE I WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK AND DO FOR READERS WHAT I HAD EXPERIENCED SO OFTEN WHICH WAS REALLY BE TRANSPORTED. >> ERIN: YEAH, CERTAINLY YOUR BOOK IS A TESTAMENT TO THE TRANSFORMATIVE POWER OF BOOKS. I WOULD SAY AS SOMEBODY WHO HAD A LIBRARIAN AS A BEST FRIEND GROWING UP TOO, I CAN CERTAINLY RELATE. SO LOOK, LET'S TALK "THE SUM OF US". I FEEL LIKE WHEN YOU WROTE THE BOOK SO MANY THINGS IN THIS COUNTRY HAD NOT YET HAPPENED ALTHOUGH A LOT OF THINGS THAT YOU TOUCH ON IN THE BOOK CERTAINLY ARE ON THE CONTINUUM THAT I THINK YOU HAVE LAID OUT SO WELL IN THIS STORY. I THINK THAT WE HAVE LEARNED BY NOW WE WERE NOT A POST RACIAL SOCIETY. PEOPLE LIKE YOU KNEW THIS ALL ALONG. TALK ABOUT WHAT ELSE WE MISSED ABOUT WHAT WAS BREWING DURING AND AFTER THAT ELECTION AND IF THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT KIND OF LED AS I ALLUDED TO JUST NOW TO YOU WANTING TO DO SOMETHING SUBSTANTIVE LIKE A BOOK TO GET INTO SOME OF THESE ISSUES. >> >> HEATHER: I SPENT 20 YEARS TO BUILD A THINK TANK TO ADDRESS INEQUALITY IN OUR DEMOCRACY AND POLICY. THE TOOLS ARE STATISTICAL SEARCH WHITE PAPERS AND TESTIMONY IN THE FROM OF CONGRESS LOBBYING. STUDY PROBLEMS, CRAFT EVID EVIDENCE-BASED SOLUTIONS AN GET THEM IN FRONT OF POLICY MAKERS AN HOPE THEY WILL MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION. FOR MY PARTICULAR FIELD OF THE ECONOMYI KEPT DOING THE WORK ANG THE POLICY MAKERS MAKE THE WRONG DECISION OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. BY WRONG THAT WOULD MAKE DECISION THAT'S WOULD WORSEN AND EXACERBATE EQUALITY. IT FELT LIKE THE DATA IS JUST NOT DOING THE TRICK. THERE IS SOMETHING DEEPER GOING ON HERE IN OUR COUNTRY. SOME STORY THAT IS SHAPING THE WAY PEOPLE IN POWER BELIEVE WE SHOULD ORDER THE ECONOMY. AND THAT STORY IS NOT ABOUT DOLLARS AND CENTS IT IS ABOUT WHO IS IN AND WHO IS OUT. WHO IS ON TOP. WHO BELONGS. WHO DESERVES. WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG. IT FELT LIKE I NEED TODAY DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN WHAT I HAD DONE BEFORE TO GET MY MIND AROUND IT AND THEN TO TELL A STORY THAT MIGHT BE A WAY FOR US TO BRIDGE THOSE DIVIDES AND CREATE A BETTER FUTURE TOGETHER. SO I QUIT MY JOB IN TO 17. I HANDED OVER THE REIGNS AND I SET OUT ON A JOURNEY THAT WOULD TAKE ME ACROSS THE COUNTRY MULTIPLE TIMES AND REALLY THAT WAS THE JOURNEY THAT BECAME THE SUM OF US. >> ERIN: YEAH. YEAH. YOUR BOOK REALLY DOES SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU HAVE DONE WHEN I HAVE CALLED TO YOU HELP ME MAKE ME SOUND SMARTER AS A REPORTER WHICH IS TO FOCUS ON THE LEGACY OF PAST HARMS IN EYE WAY THAT DOESN'T JUST CORRECT THE RECORD BUT SERVES AS A WAY FORWARD FOR ALL OF US. WHY IS THAT YOUR APPROACH AND WHY DOES THAT APPROACH MATTER? >> HEATHER: I AM NOT A HISTORIAN. I CARE MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FUTURE AND PRESENT THAN I DO ABOUT THE PAST. THAT IS NOT MY INCLINATION. SO MANY OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS IN DETERMINING ECONOMIC SUCCESS, FOR EXAMPLE ARE DETERMINED BY THE INTEREST EARLIER BEING COLLECTED OR PAID ON EXPLICITLY RACIST DECISIONS MADE OFTEN LONG BEFORE WE WERE BORN. RIGHT? THINGS LIKE WEALTH, WHETHER OR NOT DEPENDING ON WHAT YOUR PAYCHECK IS YOU HAVE A CUSHION IN THE BANK, YOU HAVE HOME EQUITY TO DRAW ON YOU HAVE RETIREMENT SAVINGS THAT'S WE WEALTH. WEALTH IS WHERE HISTORY SHOWS UP IN YOUR WALLET. WHERE THE RACIST HISTORY OF SUBSIDIZING WHITE HOMEOWNER S SHIP, WHITE PENSIONS THROUGH COLLECTIVE BARGAINING THAT WERE OFTEN EXCLUSIONARY, RACIALLY EXCLUSIONARY WHILE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BASICALLY BARRING BANKS AND DEVELOPERS FROM LENDING TO AND SELLING TO BLACK FAMILIES FOR MOST OF THE 20 BEING CENTURY MEANS THAT TODAY A BLACK COLLEGE GRADUATE HAS LESS HOUSEHOLD WEALTH ON AVERAGE THAN A WHITE HOUSE SCHOOL DROPOUT. LET ME SAY THAT AGAIN IF YOU ARE A WHITE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE YOU ARE HIGHER WEALTH, HOME EQUITY SAVINGS IN THE BLACK THAN A BLACK COLLEGE GRADUATE. THAT'S WHY HISTORY MATTERS AND THE LIES WE HAVE BEEN TOLD BY OUR HISTORY AND THE OMISSIONS OF OUR HISTORY ARE WHY WE OFTEN SEE DISPARITIES TODAY AND STEREOTYPES AS THE REASON. INSTEAD OF RECOGNIZING THAT STRUCTURE AND PUBLIC POLICY CREATED THE RACIAL AND ECONOMIC DID I INDIVIDUAL AND POLICY, BETTER POLICY CAN GET US OUT OF IT. IF WE DO THAT, IT WILL BE GREAT FOR OUR OVERALL ECONOMY. THE RACIAL ECONOMIC DIVIDE IS COSTING THE U.S. ECONOMY OVER A TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN GROWTH THAT WE ARE NOT HAVING. ALL OF OUR BEST PLAYERS ARE NOT ON THE FIELD SCORING POINTS. SO MANY ARE SIDE LINED DUE TO DEBT AND DISCRIMINATION AND DISADVANTAGE. THE SUM OF US TALKS ABOUT THE PAST, IT TALKS ABOUT HOW WE GOT TO THE PRESENT AND IT SAYS THAT WE CAN DO BETTER TOGETHER FOR THE FUTURE. >> ERIN: WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, YOUR LAYING DOWN FACTS HERE, THESE ARE FACTS THAT MAKE A LOT OF PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE. THESE ARE FACTS THAT REALLY -- PEOPLE HAVE A THE LOVE FEELINGS ABOUT. I FEEL LIKE IN THIS CURRENT CONTEXT, YOU TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE IDEA OF THE ZERO SUM PARAIME AND HOW THAT IS A WAY IN WHICH RACISM HAS REALLY HURT WHITE PEOPLE AS WELL IN A WAY THAT THEY MAY NOT REALIZE. TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT AND EXPLAIN THE ZERO SUM THEORY TO PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND OR WHO HAVEN'T HEARD ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS OR WHO HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK. >> HEATHER: THIS WAS AN AH-HA WHEN I CAME ACROSS A WHOLE BODY OF RESEARCH THAT EXPLAINED THERE IS A WORLD VIEW A DOMINANT WORLD VIEW IN UNITED STATES CULTURE THAT IS A WORLD VIEW THAT IS HELD MORE COMMONLY BY WHITE FOLKS THAN IT IS BY PEOPLE OF COLOR THAT SEES WELL BEING AS A FIXED PIE. SO IF WE GET A BIGGER SLICE THEY MUST GET A SMALLER ONE. A DOLLAR MORE IN MY POCKET MUST MEAN A DOLLAR LESS IN YOURS. THAT KIND OF LOGIC WHICH BASICALLY IS CREATED AND I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK BY A VERY OLD STORY THAT WAS USED BY THE COCOLONEL PLANTATION ELITE AND E HEIRS TO THE COLONEL PLANTATION ELITE USE THAT ZERO SUM STORY TO CONVINCE THE MAJORITY OF WHITE AMERICANS THAT THEY ARE NOT ON THE SAME PE TEAM THAT ARE WORKIG FOR A LIVING, WORKING FOR A PAYCHECK AND THAT THEY SHOULD RESENT AND FEAR THE IDEA, THE PRESENCE OR PROGRESS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR. AND SO IT'S THAT MYTH THAT PROGRESS FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR HAS TO COME AT WHITE FOLK'S EXPENSE WHICH HELPS TO EXPLAIN WHY IT IS THAT WE OFTEN SEEM OUT SO AT ODDS IN SOCIETY AND WHY WE CAN'T ROW IN THE SAME DIRECTION. WHY WE DON'T HAVE AS I SAY IN THE OPENING OF THE BOOK, NICE THINGS IN THIS COUNTRY. BY NICE THINGS I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SELF-DRIVING CARS REALLY UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE AND CHILD CARE AND WELL-FUNDED SCHOOL NEVER I NEIGHBORHOOD. WHY WE HAVE THE ANTI- GOVERNMENT ETHOS WHICH IS SELF-SABOTAGING. YET THERE IS THIS ANTIGOVERNMENT IDOL GO WHICH REALLY ONLY TOOK ROOT IN THE MAJORITY OF AME AMERICAN'S CONSCIOUSNESS AFTER THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT THAT'S WHY I TALK ABOUT THE ZERO SUM BEING MANIFESTED AND ITS MAX MALL EXPRESSION BEING TO ACTUALLY DESTROY SOMETHING RATHER THAN SHARE IT. AND THAT'S THE STORY OF THE DRAINED PUBLIC POOLS THE RAY THAT RACISM ENDED UP DRAINING PUBLIC POOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY. THAT IS A M METAPHOR. IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED BUT IT IS A METAPHOR FOR THE ROBUST SYSTEM OF MIDDLE SCHOOLS THAT CREATED THE GREATEST SYSTEM EVER SEEN IN THE '40s, '50s AND '60s. IT FELL APART DURING INTEGRATION AND PUBLIC GOODS WHO HAD TO BE SHARED BY AMERICANS THAT THEY WERE THOUGHT WERE NOT GOOD. WE SAW MORE OF THE MARKET AND THEOLOGY COME IN. THAT DRAINED A POOL INEQUALITY INSTEAD OF A ROBUST MIDDLE CLASS THAT IS A SOURCE OF A GREAT STEAL OF IN A NASTOLGA ON THE R. >> THE DRAINING OF THE POOL THAT WAS CLARIFYING FOR ME READING YOUR BOOK. IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE IN TERMS OF EXPLAINING AND UNDERSTANDING HOW RACISM HARMS -- IT CAN HARM THE OPPRESSED AS WELL AS THOSE THAT ARE EITHER OPPRESSING OR BENEFITING FROM THAT OPPRESSION. RIGHT? BEFORE WE KEEP GOING, I WANT TO JUST GIVE A COUPLE OF QUEUES TO THE AUDIENCE HERE. WE ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO LEAVE TIME FOR TO YOU ASK QUESTIONS OF OUR FANTASTIC AUTHOR. YOU SHOULD SUBMIT THOSE IF YOU HAVE THEM. AND THEN IF YOU WANT TO SHARE IT ON SOCIAL MEDIA THERE IS A #IT IS #NATBOOKFEST. USE THAT #TO SHARE THIS CONVERSATION IF HEATHER IS DROPPING AS MANY GEMS FOR YOU AS SHE IS FOR ME. I WANT TO TALK BECAUSE THIS IS ALL ON A CONTINUUM HEATHER WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT YOU LAYOUT SO WELL. I WANT TO TIE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TO LAST SUMMER'S RACIAL RECKONING WHICH WAS SO DIVERSE AND WAS SUSTAINED. I WANT TO ASK YOU WHERE YOU THINK WE ARE A YEAR LATER AND HOW MUCH OF THE COUNTRY YOU THINK IS REALLY STILL WILLING TO DO THE WORK OF DISMANTLING INSTITUTIONAL INEQUALITY. >> EARTH: THAT IS SUCH A BIG QUESTION. I WILL TRY TO TACKLE IT, ERIN. I THINK WE ARE ABSOLUTELY STILL IN THE MIDST OF THE LARGEST SOCIAL MOVEMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY. CONSCIOUSNESS HAS SHIFTED. A SENSE OF URGENCY IS STILL THERE AMONG THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. 90% OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER RALLIES LAST SUMMER WERE THE IN MAJORITY WHITE COMMUNITIES. YOU DRIVE THE RURAL AREAS OF VERMONT AND NEW HAMPSHIRE THE MOST COMMON -- SOME OF THE WHITEST STATES IN THE COUNTRY. THE MOST COMMON LAWN SIGN IS BLACK LIVES MATTER. I THINK WE ARE STILL THERE. I THINK THAT WE ARE DEALING WITH A SCEROTIC DEMOCRACY WHERE SO MUCH OF WHAT PEOPLE WANT WHETHER IT IS THE AMERICAN JOBS PLAN AND AMERICAN FAMILIES PLAN AND ALL OF THE PROPOSALS THAT I SEE AS THINGS THAT WOULD REFILL THE POOL OF PUBLIC GOODS FOR EVERYONE AND PUT AN END TO THE INEQUALITY THAT ARE NICE THINGS FOR ALL AMERICANS GETS SUPER MAJORITY SUPPORT YET ARE STUCK BECAUSE OF GERRYMANDERING. BECAUSE OF A NARROWLY DRAWN SENATE. BECAUSE OF THE RESISTANCE OF ONE OR TWO SENATORS WHO SHOULD BE GOING ALONG WITH WHAT THEIR OWN CONSTITUENTS WANT TO SEE IN THE COUNTRY. THE SAME IS REALLY TRUE FOR RACIAL JUSTICE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAIN PLANKS OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AND THE POLICE REFORM THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY WHAT PEOPLE WERE OUT IN THE STREETS FOR, IT WAS ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY. IT WAS ENDING QUALIFIED IMMUNITY FOR ABUSIVE COPS LIKE DEREK CHAUVIN. THAT GETS SUPER MAJORITY SUPPORT YET IT HAS NOT HAPPENED. SO I THINK IN MANY WAYS WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS STILL A DESIRE AMONG THE TYPICAL AMERICAN COMMUNITY FOR MUCH MORE JUST AND RESPONSIVE GOVERNMENT AND FOR PEOPLE IN POWER TO BE HELD IN POWER FOR EXCESSES WHETHER THAT IS THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO VOTED ALONG WITH THE MEMBERS OF THE SADITION CAUCUS WHO VOTE TODAY DO WHAT THE MOB WANTED ON JANUARY 6. PEOPLE WANT ACCOUNT ABILITY FOR THEM. PEOPLE WANT ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ABUSIVE COPS. PEOPLE WANT MORE MONEY TO GO INTO PUBLIC WELFARE THAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM. THAT IS MAJORITY SUPPORT EVERYTHING I JUST MENTIONED YET WE ARE UNFORTUNATELY BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE STRUCTURES THAT WERE CREATED IN ORDER TO NOT FULLY HAVE THE MOST REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY BECAUSE THAT WAS NEVER REALLY THE FOUNDER'S INTENTION AND BECAUSE OF RINGING OF THE SYSTEM BY A VERY PARTISAN ELITE THAT HAS USED EVERY SINGLE TRICK IN THE BOOK TO MAINTAIN POWER. WE ARE NOT SEEING THE KIND OF RESULTS COMING OUT OF CONGRESS THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT. >> ERIN: HEATHER, THAT BRINGS ME TO ANOTHER QUESTION BECAUSE I HAVE TO SAY IT DOES ALSO SEEM LIKE WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A SEPARATE RACIAL REC ONING IN THIS COUNTRY. YOU BROUGHT UP THE JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION. WE ARE SEEING WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH VOTER SUPRESSION. WE ARE NOT OPERATING HERE WITH A SET OF FACTS. HOW DOES THAT WORK AGAINST YOUR IDEA OF PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO COME TOGETHER AND MOVE FORWARD? HOW ENCOURAGED ARE YOU THAT THE COUNTRY IS CAPABLE OF WORKING TOWARDS A DEMOCRACY THAT YOU ENVISION IN THIS BOOK IF WE DON'T EVEN HAVE THAT SHARED SET OF FACTS YET? >> HEATHER. E WE HAVE A THIRD OF THE COUNTRY THAT LIVES IN A BIG REALITY. THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN. IT IS THE MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY SOPHISTICATED AND WELL FUNDED EVER IN OUR HISTORY. THAT IS COMPLETELY BLANKETING PEOPLE IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, IN CERTAIN RACES AND GENDERS AND RELIGIONS MOSTLY WHITE EVANGELICAL MORE MALE THAN FEMALE. BLANKETING THEM IN ALTERNATE FACTS. THAT IS A THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY. I DON'T WANT TO SOFT PEDAL THAT. I ALSO THOUGH BECAUSE WE ARE I THINK THOSE OF US IN THE MEDIA ECOSYSTEM ARE SO ADDICTED TO THE OUTRAGE AND TO THE SCANDAL OF THE OUTRAGEOUS BIG LIE OF THE BACKLASH AND THE FURY AND THE CONFLICT I THINK WE DO TEND TO OVER STATE HOW PREVALENT THAT IS AMONG THE AMERICAN PUBLIC BROADLY. THE BACKLASH IS WELL FUNDED. IT IS WELL COORDINATED. THIS IS A VERY PARTISAN PLAY BOOK THAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW FOR EXAMPLE WITH THE 11 PLUS STATES THAT HAVE PASSED THESE ATTACKS ON HONEST EDUCATION, THESE HISTORY BANS, THESE LAWS TELLING STUDENTS THAT THEY CAN'T TALK ABOUT FACTS FROM OUR HISTORY THAT MIGHT CAUSE WHITE STUDENTS TO HAVE ANGUISH. LITERALLY THE LAWS SAY IN MANY OF THESE STATES THAT LESSONS ARE INADMISSIBLE AND CAN HAVE FINANCIAL PENALTIES OR CAREER PENALTIES FOR TEACHERS IF THEY CAN CAUSE GUILT ORANGISH AMONG STUDENTS BASED ON ACTIONS TAKEN BY A MEMBER OF THEIR RACE IN THE PAST. SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TENNESSEE FOR EXAMPLE, A RIGHT WING ACTIVIST MOTHER TRYING TO GET A TEACHER FIRED FOR TEACHING A BOOK ABOUT RUBY BRIDGES IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. RUBY BRIDGES WAS 6 YEARS OLD SHE HAD THE COURAGE AND GUTS TO FACE DOWN DEATH THREATS TO INTEGRATE A SCHOOL IN 1960. YET TODAY ACCORDING TO THOSE LAWS WHITE STUDENTS ARE TOO F FRAGILE TO BE ABLE TO READ ABOUT A 6 YEAR OLD'S COURAGE. SO THIS IS THE STATE OF AFFAIRS. IT IS TERRIFYING. THERE IS A VERY CLEAR LINE FROM CHARLOTTESVILLE TO JANUARY 6 TO THESE HISTORY BANS. WE KNOW WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE BAN BOOKS. WE KNOW WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE TERRIFIED OF THE TRUTH. THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN THAT THREAD IN AMERICAN SOCIETY, THE LOST CAUSE THAT REWROTE HISTORY SO THAT LESS THAN 10% OF AMERICAN HHIGH SCHOOL SENIORS ACCORDING O THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER CAN ACCURATELY SAY THAT SLAVERY WAS THE PRIMARY CAUSE OF THE CIVIL WAR. WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LIVING IN A SOCIETY WHERE A FACTION HAS WANTED TO DENY US THE TRUTH. ROB US OF OUR SHARED HISTORY THE BEAUTY AND THE STRUGGLE. THE STRUGGLE AND RESILIENCE. THE GOAL THERE IS REALLY ABOUT THE SAME PHENOMENON THAT I WRITE "IN THE SUM OF US" TO KEEP US IGNORE ABDOMIGO AND DIVIDE THE. DIVIDED. IF YOU PEOPLE PEOPLE IGNORANT NOT KNOWING THEIR HISTORY WHAT HAPPENS IS PEOPLE FLOOD THE ZONE WITH STEREOTYPES. THAT'S WHAT WE SEE. WE HAVE THIS RACIST ANIMOSITY THAT IS ABLE TO DREW BREW. WE DON'T KNOW THAT RACIST STEREOTYPES ARE THE SAME AS THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY. THE SAME THAT JUSTIFIED SLAVERY ARE STILL OPENNIVE TODAY. PEOPLE THAT KNOW THEIR HISTORY CAN SPOT THE LIES. PEOPLE THAT DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY ARE JUST VULNERABLE TO THOSE LIES AGAIN AND AGAIN. >> ERIN: ABSOLUTELY TRUE. ONE MORE QUESTION UNTIL WE THROW IT OUT TO THE AUDIENCE. SUBMIT YOUR QUESTIONS IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS WE WILL TRY TO GET TO AS MANY OF THEM AS WE C CAN. HEATHER, THE WORK THAT YOU ARE DOING REALLY DOES SEEM TO BE IN A LONG TRADITION OF BLACK WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN TRUTH TELLERS WHO HAVE TRIED TO REALLY PERFECT THIS UNION AND BE THE SHAPERS OF THIS DEMOCRACY AND TO SHINE A LIGHT AND ATTEMPTS TO HELP TO US GET TO OUR BETTER SELVES AS A SOCIETY AND A COUNTRY. I GUESS HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU SEE YOURSELF AS A BLACK WOMAN IN THAT TRADITION? WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IT IS BLACK WOMEN WHO ARE THE ONES THAT ARE CALLED TO THIS WORK OR JUST CONTINUALLY COMMIT TODAY THIS WORK DESPITE THE DISP DISPARITIES IMPACTING THEM IN SUCH A HUGE WAY? HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT? >> EARTH: THAT IS A BIG QUESTION. I DO DEDICATE THE BOOK TO MY MOTHER, A BLACK WOMAN WHO SHOWED ME HOW TO LIVE. WHO SHOWED ME WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A PERSON ON THIS PLANET AND WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. AND THAT IS TO HEAL. THAT IS TO MAKE THINGS BETTER. WHAT ELSE IS THERE TO DO? IT WAS NEVER ANOTHER OPTION FOR ME GROWING UP BUT TO SEE THAT WE GIVE THE GIFTS THAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN BY THE CREATOR BACK TO THIS PLACE BEFORE WE ARE DONE. SO THAT IS JUST A LONG TRAD TRADITION. I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE WHOSE IDENTITY PUTS THEM ON THE LOWER ENDS OF THE CONSTRUCTED SOCIAL HIERARCHY. WE TEND TO BE ABLE TO BECAUSE OF WHERE WE HAVE BEEN SITUATED SEE THE WHOLE SYSTEM CLEARLY. SEE HOW IT FAILS AND WHO IT FAILS AND SEE WHAT WOULD REALLY NEED TO BE DONE TO FIX IT. AND THAT'S WHAT INTERSE INTERSECTIONALITY IS ALL ABOUT, THE SENSE THAT WHEN YOU HAVE THESE INTER CONNECTED AND SORT OF CAST OKAYING HIERARCHIES, THERE IS A UNIQUENESS ABOUT THE SITUATION THAT YOU ARE PUT IN NOT THAT -- IT IS NOT ESSENTIAL TO YOUR BEING. IT IS NOT ACTUALLY ABOUT BLACK GIRL MAGIC. IT IS ABOUT YOUR SOCIAL POSITION TO WHERE YOU SEE HOW ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL. HOW IT IS THAT RULES CAN BE MADE THAT CAN WORK FOR SOME BUT NOT FOR ALL. BUT THIS IS WHERE ANGELA BLACKWELL, ANOTHER BLACK WOMAN THE CUB CUT EFFECT REMINDS US IF YOU FIX A PROBLEM FOR THOSE THAT HAVE THE BIGGEST BARRIERS TO OPPORTUNITY, THAT OFTEN BENEFITS EVERYONE. BUT IF YOU ONLY FIX THE PROBLEM FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE THE LEAST BURDENED, YOU KNOW THAT WON'T BENEFIT EVERYONE. SO THAT'S THE WAY WE NEED TO REORIENT AND THAT IS THE KIND OF WISDOM THAT PEOPLE NOT JUST BLACK WOMEN. I HAVE CERTAIN PRIVILEGES THAT OTHERS DON'T. I AM A NATIVE BORN CITIZEN I AM ACUTELY AWARE OF THAT PRIVILEGE. WHEN WE LOOK AT A LOT OF SYSTEMS INCLUDING THE PANDEMIC RELIEF. UNDOCUMENTED ESSENTIAL WORKERS HOW TO MAKE THE SYSTEM WORK. THAT IS THE SPIRIT THAT I BRING TO THE WORK. >> ERIN: LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET TO A COUPLE OF AUDIENCE QUESTIONS HERE. WE HAVE A QUESTION FROM ROBERT MCCOY WHO WANTS KNOW HOW SHOULD WE DIALOGUE WITH OUR CHILDREN WHEN WE SEE EVERYWHERE AROUND THEM WITH RACE ON THE NEWS AND WHERE THEY LIKE. WHAT DO WE TELL THEM? IS >> HEATHER: THAT IS A REALLY COMPASSIONATE QUESTION AND I APPRECIATE IT. I'M IN THE MIDST RIGHT NOW OF ADAPTING THE SUM OF US FOR YOUNG READERS. IT IS A VERY THAT IS VERY MUCH ON OUR HEART. I BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO TELL YOUNG PEOPLE AND REMIND OURSELVES STORIES OF OVERCOMING TRIUMPH. RIGHT NOW THERE IS SO MUCH CONSTANT INFORMATION AND THE INFORMATION ECONOMY FEEDS ON CONFLICT AND OUTRAGE, WE DON'T SEE THE FULL STORY OF WHAT IS GOING ON. IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN WE TEACH HISTORY AS WELL AS THIS OCCURRING HOME TONIGHT TEACH HOW IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER ACROSS LINES OF RACE WHO HAVE MADE ALL OF THE PROGRESS THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER SEEN ON ISSUES OF RACE AND OTHER ISSUES. SO WE CAN'T SORT OF GET TOO CAUGHT UP IN THE US VERSUS THEM, IN THE COMES DAY NEWS, IN THE SENSATIONALISM AND FORGET THAT PEOPLE CAN CHANGE, THAT IN EVERY CORNER OF THE COUNTRY THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING AND TRYING TO MAKE SOCIETY BETTER. IT'S IN THE TELLING OF THOSE STORIES THE STORIES THAT I DEVOTE THE LAST HALF OF THE BOOK TO THE IDEA OF THE SOLIDARITY DIVIDEND THAT WE NEED TO FIND HOPE AND REMEMBER WE TELL CHILDREN''S STORIES THAT WE WANT THEM TO REPLICATE IN THEIR LI LIVES. SO THAT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. >> ERIN: WE HAVE GOT ANOTHER ONE HERE. THIS IS A TWO FER FROM ADAM. HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO WHITE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE THE DRIVERS OF A MOVEMENT WHEN THEY ARE ALSO PERPETUATING INEQUALITY BY THEIR BIASES IN THE SYSTEM. HOW CAN THEY BE BETTER ALLIES WITHOUT US AS PEOPLE OF COLOR CODDLING THEM? >> HEATHER: OKAY. I THINK THAT -- I THINK TWO THINGS. ONE, I DO THINK THAT CROSS RA RACIAL ORGANIZING IS IMPORTANT. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO EXPERIENCE THE DESIRED STATE WHAT WE WANT IS A WORLD IN WHICH WE ARE TOGETHER AND WE FIND COMMON SOLUTIONS TO OUR COMMON NEED AND WE FEEL THAT ONE GR GROUP'S FIGHT IS ANOTHER GROUP'S FIGHT AND NO ONE FIGHTS ALONE. IT'S WHAT WE WANT. LET'S CREATE THAT EVEN IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS AND COMMUNITIES AND ORGANIZATIONS. AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS A PHENOMENON ININ WHICH PEOPLE WHO PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN AWAKENEED IN THIS MOMENT OF MASS MOBILIZATION HAVEN'T DONE THE WORK OPEN THEIR OWN PROGRAMMING AND THE UNLEARNING THAT THEY NEED TO DO TO NOT PERPETUATE INTERPERSONAL HARM AND TO REALLY KNOW HOW TO DO THE WORK BETTER EXTERNALLY. SO FOR THEM I WOULD SAY THERE'S AN EXPRESSION GET YOUR COUSIN WHICH BASICALLY MEANS DO THE WORK IN YOUR OWN COMMUNITY AND DON'T JUST TRY TO SHOW UP AND BE WHERE THE COOL KIDS ARE IF THAT'S HOW YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT THIS. DO THE HARDER WORK THAT PLAY REQUIRE -- IT IS A TOUGHER CONVERSATION. IF YOU ARE REALLY ORGANIZING YOUR FAMILY AN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD OR YOUR CHURCH, YOU ARE GOING TO INTERACT WITH THE SAME LIES AND STORIES AND DISTORTIONS AND BIASES THAT YOU WERE PROGRAMMED WITH IN YOUR OWN GROWING UP. SO THAT'S WHY IT IS OFTEN VERY IMPORTANT TO START WHERE YOU ARE IN YOUR OWN COMMUNITY AS A WHITE ALLY BEFORE SORT OF -- NOT BEFORE, BUT EMPHASIZE THAT RATHER THAN JUMPING INTO MAYBE MORE MORALLY COMFORTABLE PLACES IN CROSS RACIAL SPACES. SO IT IS COMPLICATED. BUT I ALSO THINK THAT WE ALSO NEED TO GIVE EACH OTHER SOME COMPASSION ALL ACROSS THE BOARD. THE 4 YEARS OF THE LAST ADMINISTRATION WERE EXTRA ORDINARILY DIFFICULT. THIS PAST YEAR THE PANDEMIC EVERYTHING THERE'S SO MUCH STRESS THAT WE ARE ALL CARING. SO I REALLY DO THINK THAT WE NEED TO ALL AROUND THE TABLE GIVE EACH OTHER AS MUCH COMPASSION AS POSSIBLE. >> ERIN: ABSOLUTELY. AND KEEP GOING. RIGHT? THIS IS NOT EASY. WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES ALONG THE WAY. HAVE A COMPASSION FOR OTHERS AND REMAIN COMMIT TODAY THE PROCESS IS HOW WE CAN ALL MOVE FORWARD TOGETHER. HEATHER, DO YOU HAVE A FINAL THROUGHOUT BEFORE I LET YOU GO? TIME FLIES WHEN YOU ARE HAVING A ROBUST AND ENGAGING CONVE CONVERSATION. WHAT ARE YOUR FINAL THOUGHTS ON THIS BEFORE WE HAVE TO GO? >> HEATHER: I WOULD JUST SAY TO THE AUDIENCE IF YOU HAVE NOT SPOKEN UP IN DEFENSE OF HONEST EDUCATION IN YOUR COMMUNITY PLEASE DO. WRITE YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS. WRITE YOUR SCHOOL BOARD. GO TO A SCHOOL BOARD MEETING. RECOGNIZE THAT PEOPLE WHO LOVE BOOKS SHOULD BE OUTRAGED BY WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE NAME OF ATTACKS ON CRITICAL RACE THEORY. THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT TIME FOR PEOPLE OF GOOD CONSCIOUS NOT TO BE SILENT. THAT WOULD BE MY LAST MESSAGE TO THIS BOOK-LOVING AUDIENCE. >> ERIN: THANK YOU SO MUCH TO EARTH AND THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AND TO THE AUDIENCE FOR YOUR ATTENTION AND THOUGHTFUL QUESTIONS. HAVE A GOOD EVENING, EVERYONE.

Channel: Library of Congress

Views: 1,926

Rating: 4.8356166 out of 5

Keywords: Library of Congress

Id: QKQu4FSxE_g

Length: 425min 30sec (25530 seconds)

Published: Sat Sep 18 2021