Myers-Briggs + Enneagram Workshop Discussion Ep1 | Personality Hacker

hey it's Joel Markowitz and Antonio dodge from personality hacker with our good friend dr. Beatrice chestnut anagram expert dr. Beatrice chestnut welcome Beatrice to the session tonight so good to be here with you guys I really miss you and I appreciate you that we're having this conversation yeah this is cool so this the bee just can't give a framework for people listening in right now this is gonna be a little freeform it's it's almost like a glorified online panel discussion a little bit of a laboratory conversation what we're gonna do tonight is we're gonna talk about the crossovers between the anagram system and the myers-briggs system and then we'd like to open up for some questions so we're gonna let the evening guide us we're gonna have a free-form conversation on some topics we'll see where things go we'll see what questions we get and we'll be responsive to that as a team here to you know hopefully answer any questions one comment I want to make about this though is we don't have a lot of space tonight to do direct profiling so if you're not clear if you've got confusion around your myers-briggs personality type or your anagram personality type in the course of conversations we might talk to you about your type or help you know dive in there and maybe work on something but really this isn't gonna be a very good format to bring questions about which type am i it would take up a lot of time and we wouldn't be able to get to everybody else's questions and to get to the discussion one and get to tonight so the best thing you could do when you come with a question tonight is to say hey here's if you know this you could either say here's my myers-briggs type here's my anagram type or here's my myers-briggs type I don't know my own agreement but here's my question give us as much information about yourself as possible and we really want to have the questions be personal growth focused as much as as much as we can we think that'll be the best way to find some of the crossover points the laboratory elements of this the experimental nature of it if we do it in a personal growth framework we can then attend to that from the frameworks of beatriz with Annie Graham and myself and Antonio with myers-briggs did either one of you guys want to say anything Beatriz or Antonio about what I just mentioned I do I almost always have something to say so one of the reasons why we're kind of keeping this free forum is we would love to team up with B and do some really cool crossover stuff we've been talking about it since we became pals but we're but we will kind of we're in the embryonic levels of this because we have a definitive expertise on one side and Beatrice has a definitive expertise on the other side and we're each learning more and more about each other systems we learn more and more about Enneagram all the time Beatrice learns more and more about myers-briggs all the time but the one thing that we do have in common is that we are passionate about applying these systems to development and growth and we know that our portion is not always the full picture so one of the reasons why we would love questions to be framed in like personal development style or challenges you might be facing in your life problems that you might be having with people in your life or work situations are is the context that I'm I'm creating right for Who I am is it ergonomic for my personality types there's going to be a dimension of of insight that each of the systems will bring and so what we'd like to do is we'd like to start seeing what emerges as we answer these questions as we have conversations with each other and we'll have a little bit of conversation just with each other or you know just on air generally in general we'll just be talking like panelists do and also when we get questions we'll be able to start seeing what emerges as one of the best ways to address a merger of these two systems as it relates specifically to growth and development so that's why there's a little bit of a housing how is this working how you guys gonna be addressing this what does it look like we're like well I guess we'll know at the end of the call that how it all pans out because we would like it to emerge we would like it to be a systemic emergent and and then we'll once we do that and do a little bit of test at a rate then we'll know how to like dial in a really good merger between the two systems as we as we relate to those systems so that's a little bit reason why there's some openness here that was the only thing I wanted to mention yeah cool right right right and I think my way of saying kind of the same thing is that we're a little bit in learning mode here like what kinds of things do we need to be thinking about and questions do we need to be addressing to really understand how the Enneagram and the MBTI can be usefully thought about together or how they can be complementary or how their overlaps that can be usefully explored so I think part of what we're wanting to do is provide some value for people and answering questions about the MBTI in the intagram maybe at the same time but also I know for me I'm very much still in learning mode about the MBTI because I'm very interested in curious to expand my knowledge of it and and so I'm interested to hear like what are the important questions that we can on the one hand address a little bit now but also continue thinking about so that we can continue the collaboration that we've started to provide even more thorough and deep answers going forward so I think the Enneagram model the Enneagram system as applied as a personal growth tool for me is it is valuable because the anagram is all about personal growth I think sometimes when people get interested in finding out what type they are they can get enamored of just okay how can I learn a little bit about myself and stop with the insights around oh I'm a three or I'm a five or I'm an eight and not really delve deeper but the Enneagram symbol and especially the tradition that comes out of the ancient tradition of philosophy and ancient wisdom which I think it comes out of which is a lot about answering the big questions of like why are we here and what's the purpose of a human life and how can we develop ourselves and be live a more fulfilling life I think those are at the heart of what the anagram is all about so I see the anagram as a starting point when you learn your type it's it's the beginning point of what's my journey to become more fulfilled to become happier to be more effective to have better relationships and and I think the Enneagram sheds has the potential to set a lot of light on here your strengths here's what you're really good at and and it's important to know that so you can own it more fully and leverage your strengths more consciously but also what are your blind spots you know what are your challenges and how does knowing the full picture of what your Enneagram style is all about help you understand how to integrate those blind spots and see more of what you tend not to see just because your focus of attention is on a particular thing and not on something else and how can you also use the Enneagram diagram to almost integrate the strengths of other types of 360 degrees of reality because the anagram is formed on us on a circle how can you take on and adapt adopt and integrate the strengths of the other types so that you can be a more full human being you can create more wholeness in your life so the Enneagram is all about growth and I think once you know your type you have a lot of different directions in which to go in terms of finding ways to become more self-aware to meet challenges and to become to meet your higher potential in many different ways awesome thanks for that all right okay all right so Thank You Beatrice by the way for for that we did do a quick break for the audio here Antonio long tuned up some of these once you speak to some of the personal growth opportunities with - Briggs briefly because there's a ton of questions coming in I will start - and some of these out so what's interesting about myers-briggs is unlike any gram which started out as a personal development tool and has always been packaged in that way has always been presented in that way and and really what I love about any gram is I learned about it more and more is that it's it's effectively an ego transcendence tool and has never pretended to be anything else that's probably one of the reasons why its popularity has been slower than myers-briggs and to get into the public consciousness because it hits directly on the ego piece which is not something that everybody always right recognizes me whereas myers-briggs started out as a career tool like from its inception it started out to help people be placed women be placed in world war ii ii jobs that would meet their potential because the workplace was now all the men had gone to war the workplace was or like all these all these women were now needing to enter the workforce in order to make up for the absences but they didn't really have any background and knowing what they should be doing so the myers-briggs instrument was originally designed as a career tool it was like an aptitude yeah like an aptitude roll so but it's built on the back of Jung's work on fun basically what became what we know of type dynamics and cognitive functions so it's it the embryonic inception point is not career but it's official starting point was and so that's how it has been packaged and promoted and has been in the business world for deck you know decades and decades and decades and when we started talking about myers-briggs in terms of personal development which we're not of course the only people talking about that but you could see that when the personality hacker started really going look I think this is what we're gonna talk about we're just gonna talk about type you know myers-briggs type as a relates to personal development there was such a hunger for it because people who are super into myers-briggs recognized a major opportunity to become a better version of themselves by recognizing how their function stack worked and so when I when we talk about myers-briggs we don't just talked about the four-letter dichotomy we talked about the cognitive functions that make up the the bulwark of the system and as far as the dichotomies ago there's there's some personal development opportunities there there's a lot of recognition of our own wiring and permission we can give ourselves like when somebody finds out they're an introvert that's usually something that moves the needle for them hugely right they go oh I'm an introvert that's a big deal like it's just it's good to know that about myself same thing with intuitive's just kind of understanding those dichotomies is helpful but when you get to the cognitive function piece in particular the stats that are represented bugling function stacks are what we call the car model English of the types that's when you can really see some magic happen and those functions diagnose the things we're going to be interested in looking at like the part of the blind man and the elephant the part of the elephant that we are just naturally attracted to looking at which is where are perceiving processes how we take in information what catches our eye what's interesting to us and then the decision-making or judging process is all the shoulds statements that live in our head the words should be this way why aren't these working the way that I think they should be and then recognizing that they come in a descending order of strength and that we have them in a descending order of of magnitude and impact and not just in strength because it's not like the stronger ones impact us more the weaker ones can impact us just as much as the strong ones do they just impact us in a completely different way so recognizing our mental wiring in terms of strengths and magnitude and influence and how it all works together that's really I think where the personal development opportunities live because we can start to observe the limits like the the limitations of how we're naturally wired based on the influences we've had in our outside world like if we are wired to see the world a certain way but we've been surrounded by people who are wired to see it in a different way all of a sudden it makes sense why we've had a fight or whole life to represent our own perspective it lets us know what when we're being self centered when we are demanding things be our way as opposed to a more balanced way it when we really understand how each of these functions work and where they fit into our personal stack or our car model we start to recognize which ones we need to be spending more time working on and developing and growing we've recognized some of the built-in limitations of each of these functions and ways to exercise them and to become better and I think what ends up happening with myers-briggs in personal development and type development is that eventually we get to a point where we start to recognize that we don't need this diagnostic tool as much anymore we validate ourselves we recognize that this is just kind of the these are the the programs we have these are the operating systems we've been wired to have and we get to a certain point where we stop resisting how we're naturally wired we accept it we work on it and we make it better and then we move the needle and then eventually we just kind of go well that's just one way of looking at it right and then we just we we stop being so much in our own basically we stop being like so in our own life is there something wrong with me or why can't I be better or um we graduated from that - oh I can be better here's the specific way through those specific ways I can be better and then we get to a place where like I am better and I'm self accepting and this isn't the only way I have to you like I don't I don't have to be soul into my own stuff all the time I can actually see a bigger picture and it can show up to the world as opposed to trying to get the world to tell me who I am or how I operate or validate me I stopped meeting that so much because I've already done that for myself and now I can show up giving to the world and I think I think that living inside the myers-briggs system is something that has probably only within the last decade really exploded on the scene because I've been reading myers-briggs books forever I've been reading them forever and ever and ever and I've been reading them in all sorts of contexts and relationships and love and business and just type descriptions but this concept of specifically using functions to do developments will work on ourselves to become better based on our awareness of where these functions fit I think that that's something that has always been there and people have always talked about it but it's right now becoming a thing and because it's becoming a thing and that has definitely struck people so much we get emails all the time about how it's it's been a game changer for them and that's just us kind of talking about it just like sort of discussing it not even like saying specifically these necessarily but just be like hey this good how it works and people too big oh my gosh and then you just changes everything for them I think I think the power is in the results like you can really see how powerful this tool could be for development and growth even though it wasn't necessarily designed that way from the beginning but that's that is what it that's what lives in there that's the gold that could be mined from it and so I think applying both of these systems and you talk about intagram and and I think myers-briggs isn't specifically an ego transcendence tool but it can be common ego transcendence tool because it it helps introduce us to ourselves in a way that makes it so that we're not resistant anymore we don't resist who we are we're not resistant to the world's feedback we're not resistant to the inner world of dragons we stop resisting so hard and we just kind of accept and then when we do that now now we have the ability to look to take our ego as opposed to just being units all the time and kind of get a sort of a meta perspective on it and go I can I can form a relationship with this you go I can form a relationship look it could be friends with myself I could be friends with this ego and I don't have to constantly be trying to like look look look for reasons why I'm not broken I can just go oh this is how it works that's cool so I think what I love about both systems is that you love that any room started that way and I love that myers-briggs is emerging to become that and I think that's why I have a fondness for Bill system so much awesome yeah thank you for that so we're cool to jump into some questions yeah cloning all right as we answer more gonna come so here we go let's get ready so this is from Rachel hi my name is Rachel so this is gonna this is gonna be something that this is a weaving question right right out of the gate I'm an INFP type - it seems like infps are usually type fours sometimes it feels weird being an fi dominant so authenticity or introverted feeling dominance in the myers-briggs system in an Effie body so to speak I guess she's referring to Effie body being the integrator type do any of you have any thoughts on the INFP type twos and help them best navigate the world so we can weave this together it kind of Co create an answer for Rachel thank you Rachel for the question by the way yeah so Beatrice I'm gonna if it's okay I'll just jump in a little bit because yeah please do wait um so infps are usually considered more artistic types and even we have a tendency to talk about how introverted feeling or authenticity as your Dominus and INFP is very expressive and self expressive and it it wants to express in more artistic way and oftentimes feels very misunderstood and so because of that there's an association with typed forms because type 4 is kind of have a natural meaning to that way whereas type 2 is more of a it's more of a check-in and and all that features talk about type twos a little bit more but it's usually associated with people who have extraverted feeling or harmony as a process in their myers-briggs stack or F chanteys and and I think because there is some cross over in how the in how infps and type fours show up in descriptions it can they can oftentimes be conflated with each other even though they're not the same it just means that you're gonna have a different flavor that comes up as an INFP it's gonna be a little different you'll probably be more anion of p2 is going to be more in touch with the outer world feedback as opposed to attack for INFP which would be a little probably kind of double down on that nobody can understand me piece like me that's what happens when when myers-briggs types fall into their their most resonant and grand type what ends up happening is they oftentimes sort of double up on the the same behaviors like anion if he's already kind of feeling and validated in order to feeling it's impossible to express themselves and then when they're also a Type four then it just kind of turns it into it like it sort of locks it in it amplifies it exactly and I think that's one of the reasons why and there wasn't a was there a specific question about or just any thoughts my thought on this is that I kind of like it when different like myers-briggs types have a very seeming we disparate any grab type because you it's one of the reasons why not every single person that's a myers-briggs type is going to show up the same first of all because they can be anyone any Grimm type but also it ends up showing a it ends up showing a side to them that they might not have developed otherwise because all of their wiring encouraged them to go down this path as opposed to their wiring encouraging them to go down two different paths we recently met or we know actually on our team is an intp who's probably a two which is crazy wackadoodle to have an INTP be a two he's one of the most touchy-feely sweets huggy intps and i NCP's beatrice are oftentimes considered sort of these cold robots I've never seen them that way but that's sort of their stereotype is that you know they're all date on Star Trek right all right but he's but the moments when his introverted thinking or driver show up are very clear like like he was talking about the podcast he's like yeah when Joel talks I'm just like shut up Joel stop talking I wanted Toby here to talk and I was like well you can't see anything I'm sorry I'm just that wasn't what I meant but it's like these mansions of the introverted things who just coming out and being so obvious I'm like you're definitely an INTP but at the end of the day she wants to give everybody a hug on his way out so what I love is that when the integrand types in large birds types seem to be very opposites of each other you just you get you get somebody who's probably had more challenge through life and reconciling it probably had more difficulty coming to terms with two different parts of their wiring at odds with each other and that actually in in amongst that sort of chafing together and in amongst that sort of having to figure it out reconcile it not and it's not so easy I actually think that I think that a more balanced person comes from it not that it can't be balanced if you are the types that are more traditional but I think it's in sort of an enforced balance comes up and and I think with some I think with an eye I'd love to hear your perspective on tattoos but when somebody Beatrice is more of that self reflective artist but is a type 2 have you seen that combination yourself not just a person who's naturally a service person who's constantly like like the grandma baking cookies but more of an artistic expression of a type 2 have you seen that combination yourself yes yeah and I and I love this conversation because I think one of the things we need more than anything and we're talking about first of all understanding the myers-briggs types and the Enneagram types is to understand the possibilities that exist even within a specific category and so to not get I think there's always a danger to stereotype you know like twos are only the like like the Jewish mothers baking cookies you know or the macare taker codependence you know and I think there's again a lot of times based on history and biography there's a little bit more fluidity there's a little bit more possibility that are in these categories then I think people often start to think when they're just trying to figure out okay how do I understand whether to is or how do I understand what an INFP is you know and so I think what I would say to this question and I'm tempted to have Joel repeat it again just for both the benefit of me and the audience to kind of make sort of focus again on what are we what are we speaking to here yeah so my name is Rachel 9fp type to social it seems like infps are usually type fours sometimes it feels weird being an fi dominant so an authenticity or enjoy the feeling Dom yeah yeah after you Patti so to speak do any of you have any thoughts about infp type twos and how they can best navigate the world oh and I was gonna say interestingly enough Beatrice you self-identify as an ENFP in the metric system and you're insane - I was just gonna say that's right yeah yeah yeah so very close right I'm an ENFP and and so I think I think twos twos can go either way when it comes to being more extraverted more introverted and one of the things I wanted to state that I have been really appreciating as I've been learning more and scaling up in the myers-briggs is I think out there there is a really limited and not not very right a not very correct view of what it means to be introverted and extroverted you know I hear people say all the time oh it's I I get energized by being alone versus I get energized by being with people and I think this is I think it's more complex than that and the women a that I've heard you describe it and the way I've been reading about it and it's really more like you're saying about cognitive functioning what what what are you what are you indexing when you are thinking in a way are you more indexing what's kind of an internal set of standards or you're more indexing what's going on on the outside and I think choose I would say especially in terms of answering this question I think twos there are some twos who are very four ish right I don't think it's only fours that can be say introspective or artistic or referencing a certain kind of desire for self-expression or creativity I think there are some twos and and again here I might we might mention subtype in the anagram lexicon if you will I think we need to always remember you know the subtype dimension which is of course the fact that there are three versions of each of the nine types sometimes I think well the Enneagram has got to be a little bit simpler than the myers-briggs because there's sixteen myers-briggs types and only nine any REM types but actually there are 27 Enneagram types if we think about the three versions of the nine types so there's complexity in both systems she said she's a social to a social - right so that gave us a little bit more now now typically I sometimes think the self preservation - is the one that can look a little bit for --is-- but again a lot depends on what your history was sometimes I find what types your parents were influences how you show up so I think I would I advocate for a bit of fluidity and openness in how we understand say what a to is or what a for is or what an INFP is and I think it's perfect a lot of sense that you could be and INFP and also be a to from the point of view of you know what what influences if you had that also influence how you pay attention and what's important to you and things like that but like I said I'm an ENFP which you know isn't that far away from from Rachel and I'm very much a - I have I'm a self preservation - first and then a social - second and I think that a lot of these things can sort of overlap with each other in ways that make a lot of sense I think one of the I think one of the question I mean I don't know I don't want it I know we have a lot of questions so I don't want to do it yeah over at a time but one of the things when you said how do i navigate the world as an infj who's gonna show up in a little bit more of an in a two way is boundary setting something that twos have to do a lot of work arounds yes yeah yeah yeah and and I would say that probably is an INFP one of the nice things is that I mean if peas versus say F J's or F Peas versus after chances that ESPYs they get them they have a little bit more of an instinct around boundary setting than fj's do fj's that use extraverted feeling have a tendency to that's sort of the struggle of their life is to figure out exactly what those boundaries are and and I would say probably as an INFP if you are a - a social tool even is that one of the challenges you might face that other INF peas have a little bit more dialed in potentially is your boundaries so I would say one of the things you might focus on is as a feeler feelers do have some challenges with boundary setting but as a - I would I would imagine that that would probably be the thing to really dial in is to really look at as an INFP you're gonna need a lot of alone time you're gonna need a lot of your own time you're not gonna get the same kind of intrinsic reward for being perpetually an acts of service that may be an extraverted feeling style would an FJ would and so your desire to reach out and to keep your boundaries wide open might be a little bit more of a pinkwant to you then maybe some other types that this is a more traditional pairing or matchup so I would probably go way down the road of boundary setting and get really good at that and and make sure that you're doing healthy boundary set and like understand the concept of like gates that can open and close versus like walls that just shut take that one and an over giving into a point where you just hate everybody and everything and then you go like have to you know you have to go hole up and recover for weeks at a time so in navigating the world and you maybe could speak to two boundary setting a little bit but I would imagine that that's probably something you don't want to have to die and you're gonna want to die away yes I think boundary setting is a really important issue and I think it's four to four all twos it's very it's always something to be paying attention to and that could be an important piece here in looking at how the myers-briggs in the any REM type overlap here another thing I think we always need to be aware of is level of awareness or health and I think if someone is an INFP and is a little bit more oriented toward this self-expression or artistic side of things wanting to be understood which is a little bit more of a four thing in the anagram I think that's actually a really healthy thing for twos so sometimes it can mean like for some reason in your background or in your makeup there's a desire to be more understood or to express yourself and that's a really good thing and so I think sometimes it's important to recognize even within the to pattern there can be a stronger sense of like I really want to express myself I want to create poetry or I want to somehow express myself and have that be a way that I'm seen in the world and I think that if as an INFP you have that which again can be proud typically more forage but can also totally exist as in a two personality I think that's actually a healthy thing and something that would be good to be owned and worked with you know as a strength in a conscious way so we have a metric ton of INFP type nines that have showed up tonight and we're good enough a few of them have just so by the way Thank You Rachel for your question thank you guys for ladies for chiming on some of the answers I made of some of this here on consolidating some of the themes that I'm seeing come through so I have three INFP type nines that came in boom boom boom but kind of not necessarily opposing questions they might even be some similar so I'm gonna just kind of read through these and see if we can mine out some of the the key words and some of the things we could speak to for INFP type nines in general because it sounds like there's a lot of them on the call as to be helpful based on some of these questions were getting so I'm just gonna read this one from Pamela this is a really quick question I'm an INFP type 9 I would love to be pointed in the direction to find my purpose so purpose is a key word there there's somebody to learn it anonymously that is basically this person says I'm interested in the convergence between any gram growth and copilot function growth meaning can those be combined to maximize both or is a predictable alchemy between the two I'm an INFP 9 I've done a lot of work in both showing up an asserting as a nine and in breaking out of my loop states and utilizing any extraverted intuition or exploration that's what you call it to get out into the world but I feel like there could be more to do on a deeper level and joining those two so the question there the thought there the the question would be showing up and asserting myself and growing both my intagram type as a 9 and also as an INFP growing my exploration function and then down here whitney has another question infp type non-sexual here hi I really love the interconnectedness of the types as Beatrice just mentioned as a way to navigate through life how do you see the cognitive functions as interconnected beside the fact of having a cognitive stack the car model functions just curious what your thoughts are even though t.i introverted thinking is not in my cognitive stack as a nine of P I try to use authenticity or introverted feeling as an access point to understanding how t I introverted thinking works both being introverted judging functions is an example of possible interconnectedness or connectedness excuse me thanks for doing this webcast so just some thoughts and maybe we want to talk a little bit highlight on these we don't take maybe more than like seven minutes or so but let's try to address some of these thoughts from infp nines and then maybe kind of summarize some some things for the INFP nine that might be listening right now because it sounds like that's that's something subtracted this conversation a lot excellent so we'll just start so so there they are three very different questions I can the third one seems to be more of a myers-briggs type question so I can I can do that one on my own but the the concept of assertiveness is a tec-9 combined with the copilot development of extraverted intuition what I would love to do I look if you would be ok with handling that one right now and then we'll flip over to the infp purpose question so the first one is on computer can you kind of talk a little bit about because I'm going to learn from you here a little bit about what the assertiveness work and that a tight line needs to do so I can just kind of get it in my head as I sort of formulate this point well how it pairs with extraverted intuition development for 9fp absolutely absolutely so with nine nines you know when they're in the personality and they're more in the fixated mode when they're just kind of doing their personality it's hard for nines to be very assertive it's hard for nines to kind of find their purpose and live it out in a sort of way partly because their whole coping strategy in the world is to sort of give way to others is to avoid conflict and pursue a course that's going to lead to harmony and getting along with others so the whole thing that 9s do habitually is to go to sleep to their own agenda to their own desires and so it's hard to be assertive when you're not conscious what you want you know and it's just easier it's the path of least resistance to say well what do you want I'll just go along with what you want and then we can be in a good place with each other we won't fight there won't be any tension and we can stay comfortable now of course when nines are on a growth path that doesn't work because that keeps them from being conscious of and acting on behalf of their own sense of purpose on their own desires wants agenda that they would be assertive in in support of so I think the big growth work for nines is around getting more and more clear on what do I want how do I feel you know why do I feel passionate about how do I want to contribute to the world what even what am i angry about you know what do I what's my strong opinion here some nines will say they they feel more comfortable expressing their opinions say about politics or about an issue or at work than they do about something personal but I think when you're doing growth work it's about how do you act on your own behalf how do you get learn to be more assertive in asserting what you want in in your point of view in furthering your own agenda and your own objectives so that's a big big growth goal for knives and I think part of the way they do it is starting to get more comfortable with being uncomfortable first of all it's gonna be uncomfortable to assert yourself and allow yourself to be vulnerable to the fact that other people may not like you to be assertive they might be used to the fact that you're really easygoing and you're you you tend to go along with what other people want you go along to get along you don't really assert what you want in a strong way but it's important to remember that anger is connected to power it's important to remember that you do know what you want at a deeper level but just through the course of life you've often learned to forget that or turn the volume down on that because the priority was getting along with others and maintaining harmony so I think a big big goal when when nines are engaged in a personal growth effort is getting really clear on what is my sense of purpose what do I want and how can I assert that in more and more powerful ways and so it's about learning to tolerate discomfort its alert it's about learning to tolerate conflict and that conflict can be a good thing Nine's typically don't like conflict because at a deeper psychological level conflict means separation and this goes all the way back to sort of where the nine dilemma it starts starts from which is being separated from the mother or being separated out being kicked out of the womb in a way and so it's about getting comfortable with actually separation can be healthy the best relationships occur when there is a healthy separation when you can be your own person and the other person is their own person and you can come to meet from the point of view of your own separate individuality which necessarily means you asserting who you are what you want how you feel without regard to how it will whether it's in line with her in harmony with what the other person feels so I would say being assertive is really really key for Nine's and it's it's very important for nines to be working on being aware of what they want and and learning to tolerate the discomfort of speaking that in the world and asserting that and knowing that if they're uncomfortable they're on the right track actually so so I'm gonna marry this with the question of how do you combine or where would be the crossover between the development of what you just talked about and for an INFP developing extraverted intuition or exploration and a little wrote in the book that we just put into our publisher I literally wrote extraverted intuition has to get comfortable with being uncomfortable like yeah that's the convergence is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable yeah that's right the new normal is the is discomfort and and so I think for an INFP or an INTP that would be a nine and is trying to find a way to optimize their growth and development is to just keep getting out of your comfort zone just perpetually out of your comfort zone one of the questions we also asked is what kind of trouble can I get into today that's what extraverted intuition I like that what's the trouble I can get into you today and so as a nine getting into trouble is a problem we kind of threatening because it means rocking the boat but that's part of the Antechinus training so I would say yeah those kinds of questions what trouble can I get into how can I get comfortable with being uncomfortable that's yeah that's the convergence but one thing I would like to say to the Insp that is it's based on what you just said which is that anger is connected to power yeah I mean if these inferior three-year-old processes extraverted thinking or effectiveness and because it's at the but it's like the baby in the car there is a um there's sometimes a knee-jerk response that kind of piece have to this concept of power look it's it's very uncommon is very uncomfortable to think in terms of power and yet because it's that aspiration that three-year-old aspiration inside of them it's whispering in the back of their head this this desire for leadership and power this desire for status this desire for impact and moving the needle but there's a there's a an instinct to reject it because they're not 100% sure how to integrate it so an INFP nine I would say the other side of development and optimizing your type beyond just what kind of trouble can I get into and how can I be comfortable with being uncomfortable is the other piece of integrate don't reject the desire for power or the desire power be what it is that power would give you why do you have the subterranean ingre thing going on like what is it about power that you would love to be able to bring your powerful self to the world and because it's really three year old in the myers-briggs system you're gonna want to like kind of like reject it and demonize it and push it away but it sounds like both the 9 and the INFP need to integrate that integrate the concept of what power means to and how they wouldn't like to be a force of impact in power and it doesn't have to come with all that like domination and domineering and hurting other people and all these stereotypes that we get about how power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely yeah yeah I totally want to say something on that no I think you're so right and this is I think this points to why your car model is so great is you know when you learn about dominance and Submission you know it's actually this the submission person who has the power hmm yeah right right so with nine nines Express power passively right so they're the ones who like are in into passive resistance or passive aggression and it's a form of power but it's almost like a disowned underground form of power but I think in a way it can be even more powerful like the mountain that can't be moved like I'm not gonna come up against you and have a conflict until you no I'm not gonna do it you want me to do I'm gonna stand there a nod and be friendly and not move an inch right and so I think one of the things I love your car model points do is there's this sort of back backseat thing that actually needs to be integrated in a more conscious way and I think nines benefit from not having it be this underground kind of subterranean backseat like I've got this power but I'm not really gonna show you my face I'm not gonna assert it in this outward way but it's there I mean I think it actually is again part of what we're talking about here and we're talking about growth is flexibility expansion you know having different options in terms of how we express our power and when nines are locked into I can I'm the only way I can express power is through passive resistance it really limits them in terms of what they can do in the world now it is a form of power and it's often that form of power if you're not going to move me you know and I'm not even gonna engage with you directly but I think it is it helps nines to recognize they are expressing power they just may be doing it in a way that it's less conscious it's more in the back seat you know it's more the three year old and and that actually it benefits them to be conscious of okay how do I really want to express my power and do I want to allow myself to be more what do I want to allow myself to put it in the front seat and be more openly assertive and take the risk of being more actively assertive instead of having it be something that's a little bit more underground that helps me not be run over by other people that maybe don't see me or hear me but it doesn't really put it out there hate this is what I believe this is what I want and I'm not gonna allow you to push me around in a more active voice and what's nice about having an extroverted thinking or effectiveness as a three-year-old representing that thing that gets rejected is that effectiveness is is not just power or status or you know management or whatever it's its impact it's making something right happen it's a pass/fail criteria that says I did something I mean it happened I closed the loop I made it and so being able to sort of put language to the part of you that you'll reject that you might unconsciously be rejecting but going that's bad it's bad to be in a position of power because that's that's corruption but you're still on it in this like sort of half-assed way which to it and go actually what I want is the power of impact I want to actually make something happen I want to see return on my investment I want to put time and effort into something and actually see it flourish so sort of amalgamating this path like power as opposed to corruption more power of moving the needle more power of like making an impact in the outside world and so integrating that three-year-old process as an INFP is going to have return in both the system so you'll be able to double up on your development there and it's right right right when you say on that yeah yeah yeah I'm just gonna say that's beautifully put and I would say it's also to about owning it you know it's about owning it like like I own my power and not I think that's a beautiful thing when Mayans can really make it more conscious and put it more in the foreground than having it be something where they are powerful but they aren't really even fully aware of how they're exerting their power you know so putting it more making it more of something that is an active choice rather than something is something that they may be acting out in a sideways way that they might not be fully aware of but there's also you know having an impact but in a not so direct way right exactly so then the mp9 that said how can I find my life's purpose by the way that wasn't just her there have been multiple types anagram and myers-briggs asking that same question about finding purpose and a lot of purpose questions so for those individually they will just kind of wrap in some general comments I like it that sounds good so purposes on purpose I don't think can be found within your type purpose is going to be the emergent of an entire system running which includes your type it includes how you're wired but it's gonna have a lot of other components too I believe it personally and so when a person is looking for their purpose knowing your type is helpful but it won't be the thing that defines your your life purpose whatever that is I would say and that's my philosophy as an INFP though all that stuff we talked about of how can I get in trouble today how do I get comfortable with being uncomfortable infps figure out how they feel about something when they're in the moment in fact it's not uncommon for people to use introverted feeling or authenticity to only know how they feel about something after they've already made the decision so they make a decision they go no no that's not what I wanted at all and they're like you meet to reverse course can we do something else which is why that exploration process of getting you out and trying a lot of new things and exposing yourself to all sorts of radically different experiences is so important because that's how you calibrate your introverted feeling your authenticity to determine what is important to you because you you can conceptualize it from home kinda but you don't really know until you're there that's when you know how you feel about it and so the more exploration you can do the more getting outside your shell the more exposing yourself to the world's challenges and troubles and problems and solutions and what means something to you you might think something means something to you you get there and it didn't mean anything or not what you thought it did but this other thing you didn't even know that existed and that's totally important to you so as an INFP it's still making sure that you are getting into exploration to put yourself in enough situations where your authenticity can go okay all right that's the thing that's the thing that's important to me and I didn't know it until I got there and then I'm integrating the desire for impact and like we just talked about and not pushing that away recognising the purpose is generally tied to impact and so if you want to if you want to have a purpose that means you're gonna have to get used to this idea of having impact specific impact that will make you need to be a force that goes out into the world as opposed to waiting for things to come to you not that the person you ask this is necessarily doing that but that's a challenge that kind of piece can sometimes have is waiting for it to show up as opposed to going out and making it happen so so as far as what your specific purpose is that will be outside of your type but you can do things to facilitate finding it as an INFP which is getting into exploration right so two things I would say about that come up with what you're saying first of all I would say in terms of finding like your sense of purpose from an any grand point of view I do think there are certain types that have a harder time connecting to finding their sense of purpose top of the list would be nines and twos partly because their attention is so focused out on other people and how is everyone and how is everyone in the environment doing not as focused in on my own internal agenda and my own internal feelings so sometimes it can be hard like what is my purpose I know for me I'm a 2 and it took me a long time to figure out what I wanted to do in life I had immense anxiety than of college because I had no idea because my attention is not focused in on me and what I want my feelings my sense of purpose so I would say that first of all is if you're a 9 or a 2 or maybe a it can be hard to know you know it can be hard to access your sense of purpose whereas other types can I think have an easier time partly because there you're a three or more focused on goals if you're a five your mode focused on like what's important you intellectually and and so on then the other thing I want to say is about nines and it relates to something you just said in terms of like exploration and things like that I have a good friend who's a nine and he said something to me recently and I thought oh that's so that's so classic four nines and what he said is and he's a self preservation 9 so I think it may go even more so for maybe that subtype but he said I often don't know how I feel about something or what I want until I actually experience it right and it fits in very much of what you just said I think referring especially to infps but if there's a sense of like I need to explore like you're saying I need to try something out and then almost feel like how does this feel for me you know it's like it's almost like some nines especially self-preservation nights it's like they can't really operate in the theoretical as much you know sixes fives you know they live more in the theoretical maybe 7s it's like I can imagine what that would be like and think about how I feel about it but nines it's almost like well I don't really know what I want or I feel about it and so I'm actually doing it and so I think that's something important for that the type can shed light on of you know if you're a certain type you may just need to take an action or try something out and give yourself room to understand how does this feel for me once I'm doing it and then give yourself the flexibility of okay maybe this doesn't feel like the right thing or maybe this doesn't feel like it's feeding into my sense of purpose maybe I'll try something else and sometimes I think life is a little bit like a little bit more like trial and error than we'd like to think it is and I think that's that's something that can speak to this question of give yourself the experience and if you can find a way to have a little bit of the experience instead of like having you know committing to some big thing then that's great and try it out and see how does it feel because some types especially nines and body-based types in the anagram it's almost like they need to have a scent sense8 experience of how does this feel to be experiencing it in my body and then they can sort of get clear of like oh yeah this doesn't feel good to me or wow this does feel right to me whereas beforehand it's hard to just imagine it the way head types can or maybe some heart types it's hard to know you know ahead of time yeah it's like that question about fi accessing key I I think what I'm going to do is so that we can give a little bit of time air time to other types yeah I think what I'll do is I'll do a Facebook live about that after this is three yeah so I'll do a Facebook live about it if you don't have if you're the person who asked the question and you don't have facebook and you're like that doesn't do me any good cross post it to YouTube oh yeah shoot shoot us an email address posted YouTube and then we'll process let's say YouTube will do that no way it's the two different formats for people they don't know if it's all alright so whatever video about that so so lots of questions are coming in and we're obviously not getting everybody's questions and I'm realizing that it's just gonna be impossible because we have like people are still getting kicked off the system cuz there's so many people trying to show up well we'll do this more it just means we need to do a problem so let's zoom out for a second here and get away from a specific type just in general there's two I'm trying to combine kind of the essence of questions to get a sense of what's going on so this comes from Jennifer and then I'll read a second question that comes from from here in a second but basically Jennifer says can you speak to to win Enneagram and MBTI so when anagram & myers-briggs types match up pretty obviously it's kind of the first part of this amalgamated question here and then the next part is I'm an infj and in Graham 9 then the nines are thick as thieves tonight this is really general but how would you also just going about finding the crossover between your myers-briggs and anagram types I'm warrior both of them individually would love to further explore how they might overlap and influence each other and then use them more intentionally together in my personal growth trade so basically it's this idea of are there patterns and the general question is are there patterns of types that tend to cross over in the myers-briggs system versus anagram and more specifically what can you look at as a certain type how do you look for those patterns and how could you use that information if there are crossover so one's more of a general question than once more of an application question based on how to use some of the crossover so so as far as crossover I there seems to be trends of types that like Myers Brigg I'm gonna talk about it first for myers-briggs because that's the type that's the system I come from and then and you think speaks the integrand peace Beatrice if you've seen other patterns but there seems to be certain myers-briggs type seems to cluster in certain any grim types but it's not a hard and fast rule like int types have a tendency to cluster around the the head centric types like five and six like we just talked about a night if he was like I'm let's hear that's weird right I enough these usually fours but we're seeing a lot of nines too and I think they have a tendency to cluster to four and nine and and so there's there's a clustering because there's a compatibility of wiring and so the strategies are probably gonna fit what's already sort of there but Beatrice we've already talked about it you suspect the same thing that we do we suspect that myers-briggs type is actually genetic I mean like it's in your DNA and your kind of suspecting the same thing about any ground type that it's it's hard wired into here so if that's the case then that means that there's going to be who's gonna be trends in it because it makes sense to have strategies matched wiring and I've seen so many exceptions to those rules it's ridiculous so there are certain types that trend towards certain other Engram types and then you'll see these outliers like I mentioned we have a person on our staff who's an intp - that's weird right that's unusual to do self-preservation to a self-preservation - most likely and so it's a con that's a fascinating combination and I've seen enough of those I say in the past I've seen almost every combination I haven't seen every combination yet but that doesn't that's that's because I'm not an anagram expert that's because I don't know there any room type I know the myers-briggs type but my suspicion is that if I could profile of Beatrice des Eaux venogram I probably would have run into just about any call every combination and and so there are definitely trends to talk about what all of those trends would be would be a huge chunk of time and a chunk of change so we're gonna I'm going to mentally tag that that's a question and maybe we can bring it up in the future collaboration and start talking about what like what that would look like to actually do some legit research around that and to know some legit clustering but as far as as far as the crossovers there's definitely trends but there's there's enough exceptions to indicate that there's not limitations set there and then and the odd combinations are going to come up with people who probably struggle to find their types yeah I want to throw one more thing here to the the question bin part of this kind of conversation as I see them I'm trying to cluster them another question that Claudia brought up was what about the instinctual subtype Soviet be the instincts of self-preservation social or sexual are those tending are those across the board also or those tend to also cluster around certain myers-briggs types would be another like another part of this discussion I guess that's not throw that in there to have that I don't know um I don't know if either if I've done enough because subtypes are actually a relatively new thing for me I just learned about subtypes like within the last we learned there from this amazing book like last year I read her book and I was like this is an amazing book that gives a lot of information I didn't have before let's go look her up and see if she'll be in our podcast so that's like um that's this is a relatively new thing so I haven't been scanning for that as well and I don't know if I can I can't by sight observe somebody's subtype so I don't know if there's clusters there Beatrice you might have seen something that I haven't seen but but as far as the actual anagram types there there are trends but not words yes right right Joel can you repeat the question again just so I speak to it as specifically as absently so basically the it's there's not a really specific question here there's kind of two parts to a question the first part is are there clusters or they're predictable elements to someone who's myers-briggs Type Indicator they're gonna be a certain myers-briggs type and then also along with the the instinctual subtitle subtypes there are the instincts is where a subtype is your I understand it make sure I get this accurately it's your auntie Graham type mixed with an instinct creates your subtype so right instincts themselves or self-preservation social and sexual so are there patterns that you noticed it probably is we don't have enough data set to go off this but you might have something Beatrice yeah you don't just know you don't know yet but that's basically the first part of the question always need a scale yeah yeah obvious I mean I think one of the things that I'm excited about especially now that you finished your book is I think it would be really fun for us to kind of really dig down and try to do more especially because you come from such a growth mindset when you work with the myers-briggs I really want us to kind of flesh this out more I think obviously there's not a one direct one-to-one correspondence like all enfps aren't twos you know you know all infps aren't nines but I do think that like you're saying I like the word clusters there are certain cognitive functions that cluster with certain types one of the things I want to point out just because I think it's one of the interesting contrast between the myers-briggs and the Enneagram and this is one of the things I learned at a conference a couple years ago but that I've also been reflecting on since I've been reading a book that you guys are recommended to me Lenora Thompson's book which is that the myers-briggs all of the types were all talking about different kinds of cognitive functioning right so we're talking basically about different kinds of reasoning so we're talking about the head level whereas with the Enneagram it starts from the idea that the types are discerned in part by whether they're thinking based feeling based meaning they come more from feeling been thinking or instinctive or movement center-based burst meaning they come more from kind of an instinctual intelligence or a kinesthetic or gut knowing intelligence head intelligence so it's an interesting thing because in a way we're kind of looking at apples and oranges but at the same time I think there are ways that we can start to explore how these things fit together because like even in the cognitive function of T versus F even though there's are both different forms of reasoning sort of different things that you consult when you're figuring things out mentally there is a way that the F's are going to be probably you know tapping into a data set that's more related to feeling or values as it's the way it's somewhere sometimes put so I think that's an interest you know I think more needs to be done in this area but I obviously think that there are certain types that cluster together in certain ways now I think what makes it a little bit more interesting and also more complicated is the instinct level is the fact that let's say you take a feeling type you know like a 2 or a 4 that's a very much a heart based thing you know so they're gonna be interestingly thinking with their feelings right so it's almost like I'm not really consulting all but the data set I'm more my data consists of how do I feel about this primarily you know whether I'm aware of it or not that's the way I'm processing and processing through emotion in a primary kind of way now what complicates that is the fact that self-preservation types so so people who are moved more not only by their Enneagram focus let's say it's 2 or 4 sort of an emotional view on the world and even within the emotional view a specific focus of attention am I liked how am i doing with people versus full that might be 2 versus 4 am i understood by people how connected are we am I going to be abandoned things like that you also have the instinctual impulse that's a part of the picture and self-preservation people have a strong self-preservation instinct you tend to overdo that are going to have an aspect of them that's a little bit more fear-based that may make them look a little bit more like tea right that may be a little bit more thing now I'm a self-preservation too I'm a very intellectual I'm not very emotional very emotional but I also am very intellectual and I think part of it is we always have to think about like what type was your parents and what's your biography like I grew up in a circumstance where the in fact education was how you've got perceived in a positive way right so is it - I want people like me I want them to see me in a positive light so being smart was something that was really important which is also kind of may tilt me in its towards tea in a way or something or it's something being or a way of being more reliant on a certain kind of cognitive functioning that maybe looks more like thinking and so it that's where it gets a little complicated but I also think that there's a lot of rich exploration we can do because I do think that when you mix the the straight-ahead type in terms of this is the bias of perception with the instinct in terms of okay I'm going to be a little bit more if I'm a self-preservation a little more fear-based a little bit more thinking based if I'm a social type I'm gonna be a little bit more consulting like what's going on the group and how can I have influence in the group which maybe tilt me in another direction versus having a one-to-one focus which may be a little bit more like how can I really win over my rivals and make this intense passionate connection happen with this person now again sometimes that's indexing - what is this other person like you know maybe I'm trying to connect with someone who's not like me and so I want to be a little bit more like them so again part of what I'm doing obviously is making it even more complicated but I do think that if we get really clear on what's the focus of the seniya Graham type how does that focus mix with this instinctual type we can start to tease apart the elements that help us create a better understanding about okay these generally these these myers-briggs types can tend to be one of these two or three types when I was when I've been reading this book one of they'll be reading about a particular you know extraverted thinking or extroverted feeling and I'll be like oh wow and I'll write some Enneagram types in the margin like this really sounds like 2 7 or 4 right like everything that's being said about these myers-briggs types makes me think 2 7 or 4 or maybe 9 you know but over here looking at these types whew I'm thinking that could be 3 1 or 5 so I think that there is a kind of way that these things cluster together I don't think yet I've done enough work but this is work I'm very excited to do with you guys since you have so much more expertise than the myers-briggs than I do I think there may be more and more ways we can put more and more words and more and more clarity - here are the clusters of groups that tend to be more these types and here's why well and you you touched on something that's even more interesting to me which is that you know look I'm looking I'm an ENFP I'm a feeler but based on my any ground type it might look like a more of a thinker even though I'm in like sort of the feeling center but your thinking process right because you have a thinking process just like everybody does is for you who tenure in the car model it's extraverted thinking or effect there I made a tent in the car model which is also are going to like that's an important part of who you are in your Myers persist down type like your 10 year old process is a very conscious and you're always attempting to integrate it and you might become over reliant relying on it based on maybe you're in rem type and then in the myers-briggs system we call that a loop right when you start to sort of over rely on the 10 year old process because of your anagram strategy or whatever encouraging you to go there and now you're in a myers-briggs loop and you and you got to get out of that loop now and so as as a - and a feeling type you need to get into your authenticity or introverted feeling process which is all about what's my agenda what do I want etc which is what a - needs to do right so it's like what I love about all this and I here this is a three I'm in the feeling Center I'm a three sexual subtype and I mean CP but my feeling process is also my ten-year-old process so I my entire life I had to try to get out of that loop because I was always going to my feeling process in likes insulting with everybody is everybody determining my value is good and checking with everybody else and what my value is did I show up right and I do the thing I'm supposed to do do I get a dog biscuit right like so like that's that's been my loop and so all of my stuff is to get into my thinking process which is what is radically honest for me what's an integrity for me as a person which is what three is supposed to be working on what is your personal radabaugh and Steve had you drop your mask so the trends are interesting to me but what's more fascinating to me is these combinations of seeing how the anagram and the myers-briggs type manifests together depending upon which functions they're pulling in in their stack in order to accommodate for their intagram type and vice-versa so I love the concept of the trends - I'm into it I want to see that work as well but I love the intricacy of mirroring the two systems just just knowing you're at any room in your myers-briggs types creates such an interesting overlap of all of these different fleshed out pieces that to me is more interesting actually even the trends personally so right right yes a Beatrice no no I would just very short add to that I mean what I really hear too is you know all of this understanding is only as valuable as it helps us grow you know exactly and so I I love that that's the way you think and and so yes I think that one of the one of the beauty one of the really rich opportunities I think we have to do this work together is almost like bringing together what are some insights that you can get through the myers-briggs model about you know how you operate and what you need to do to grow and how can that be really complementary or additive to what you can learn from the Enneagram system about how you can grow and so I'm really interested and excited about network with you where we can not only figure that out but make it really clear and accessible for people okay so again I'm try to bachelor together we're getting a lot of comments here about people being very clear and very decisive multiples of these come in I know my myers-briggs type I'm confident about my myers-briggs type I have no question but what comes by any Graham type I am struggling I am struggling so hard and my Vista might that can be addressed helped me understand where I should be looking what should I do if I'm struggling so much I might even have some people I even have your book it might have taken online tests and this is just something they're really struggling with what would you how can we help them what can we give them here to go in and find the type that they are right right right so first of all I really understand the struggle I want to say empathize with the struggle I think you know in some ways the myers-briggs has an advantage because there's been a lot of work ongoing for a long period of time I think which you guys are really adding something unique and important to and with the work you're doing in terms of clarifying there's a test that see that's that's very effective in helping people guide them to their their type I think in the any Graham world it's almost like we haven't really gotten her act together yet or we haven't gotten clarity or unity around the expression of the types in fact I was just having a conversation with someone today and he's basically you know he's trying to figure out whether it have me to do an anagram session with his group and one of the things he was saying as well you know I've looked around at the any grammar I look different sites and different and everyone says different things so I think part of the problem with the Enneagram is that it's relatively new field you know really it's only been out in the world and we've only been really working with it since like maybe 1990 1988 I mean it's been coming out since 1970 but really only out in a big way since 1988 or 90 and it's not an academic science in the anagram world I mean I was trained as an academic so it's kind of frustrating for me because I want us to be all working together to kind of advance the knowledge in a really clear and coherent way you're the types or the subtypes there's to find out how to find your type but I'm one person and you know I have some people that that I that I'm working with who I feel very alive with but there's a lot of other pentagram teachers and schools and books out there and they present it in slightly different ways so I think that's one thing that just needs to be named that a lot of the tests out there aren't very effective and people need to know that it's a lot it's very tricky to find your Enneagram type through a test for many reasons one thing is you know sometimes we test in terms of who we'd like to see ourselves as and rather than who we really are the Enneagram is really good at helping you see your blind spots but when you're taking a test sometimes you don't know your blind spot so that gets reflected in your test results so on the one hand I the first thing I want to is empathize with people are not sure about their Enneagram type I do a lot of typing interviews and it's always a little bit of a delicate process especially because for me the subtypes are really the key to helping you find your type because nine types is a little bit of a blunt instrument you know even with 16 and as well defined as well worked the the 16 myers-briggs types are it's actually easier to find yourself in there than it is in these nine types so I've been working with the subtypes this particular approach to the subtypes which I think helps enormous lis you

Channel: Enneagram Roadmap — by Personality Hacker

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Keywords: bea chestnut, wisdom of the enneagram, Claudio Naranjo, David Daniels, Don Richard Riso, russ hudson, Helen Palmer, riso hudson, The Complete Enneagram, Understanding the Enneagram, myers-briggs, mbti, mbti + enneagram, myers briggs and enneagram, enneagram

Id: SqZqoosu4Gw

Length: 74min 55sec (4495 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 06 2018