JONI: WELL, IS HELL
A REAL PLACE? FORMER ATHEIST PROFESSOR
HOWARD STORM SHARES THE SHOCKING TRUTH ABOUT WHAT LIES BEYOND, AND THE ONLY HOPE HE FOUND ON THE OTHER SIDE. IF YOU'RE ENJOYING
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NOTIFICATION BELL TO STAY UP TO DATE ON ALL OF OUR LATEST POSTS. ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ JONI LAMB: WELL, IS HEAVEN REAL?
WHAT ABOUT HELL? AND HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU IN
THE ANSWERS TO THOSE QUESTIONS? WELL, TODAY, WITH THE HELP OF
OUR SPECIAL GUEST, WE'LL HEAR A FIRSTHAND ACCOUNT OF ONE MAN'S
JOURNEY THAT ANSWERED THOSE QUESTIONS AND
TRANSFORMED HIS LIFE. FIRST, JOINING ME AROUND THE
TABLE IS MY DAUGHTER IN LOVE, SUZANNA LAMB; HOW ARE YOU? SUZANNA LAMB: I AM WONDERFUL.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. JONI: YOU LOVE HEARING
STORIES ABOUT PEOPLE THAT GO TO THE OTHER SIDE AND COME BACK? SUZY: IT'S TRULY LIFE-GIVING. I GET A LITTLE JEALOUS,
I HAVE TO BE HONEST. I WANNA SEE WHAT THEY SAW.
BUT THANK YOU FOR SHARING. JONI: YOU KNOW, WHEN WE DID
THE INTERVIEW EARLIER WITH OUR GUEST TODAY, YOU WERE SITTING
BESIDE ME, AND I COULD HEAR YOU ON CERTAIN PARTS, ESPECIALLY
WHEN IT COMES TO JESUS. YOU GET VERY EMOTIONAL
THINKIN' ABOUT IT, RIGHT? SUZY: I THINK, ALMOST EVERY DAY
OF MY LIFE, I THINK ABOUT THAT MOMENT THAT HE'LL HUG ME
'CAUSE I'M PHYSICAL TOUCH. I WANT IT SO BAD. IT'S OKAY.
I HAVE TO WAIT. JONI: IT'S COMING. ALL RIGHT, ANNA KENDALL,
HOW ARE YOU? ANNA KENDALL: I AM GREAT,
AND I'M EXCITED ABOUT THIS SHOW. I THINK WE'RE GONNA LEARN SOME
REALLY INTERESTING THINGS THAT WE ALL MAYBE DON'T KNOW. JONI: THAT'S RIGHT.
RACHEL LAMB BROWN. RACHEL LAMB BROWN: WE
ARE CITIZENS OF HEAVEN. JONI: WE ARE
CITIZENS OF HEAVEN. YOUR DAD'S ALREADY THERE. RACHEL: I KNOW. JONI: YOU'RE GONNA MAKE SURE YOU
GET TO SEE HIM AGAIN, AREN'T YA? RACHEL: I BETTER. JONI: I LOVE IT; CINDY MURDOCK,
I'M SO SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT THE LOSS OF YOUR BROTHER. JUST ASK EVERYONE WATCHING
TO PRAY FOR YOU AND PRAY FOR YOUR MOTHER. HE'S NOW A CITIZEN OF HEAVEN. HE'S THERE WITH YOUR DAD. CINDY: YES, AND NOW I KNOW
WHY PEOPLE SAY HEAVEN'S SOUNDING SWEETER ALL THE TIME AND SING
THAT 'CAUSE, DEFINITELY IS. JONI: SO HOW'S YOUR
FAMILY, AND HOW ARE YOU? CINDY: WE FEEL THE
PRAYERS, SO THANK YOU. I THINK IT'S JUST ANOTHER
REALITY OF THOSE THAT WE LOVE THAT GO ON, AND THEY DO THAT
TRANSITION INTO ETERNITY IN HEAVEN BEFORE US AND SO
ANXIOUS TO BE WITH 'EM. JONI: WELL, FOR THE SECOND
TIME BACK AT THE TABLE, HOWARD STORM, WELCOME. HOWARD STORM: THANK YOU. JONI: SO GOOD TO
HAVE YOU HERE TODAY. I TOLD MY MOTHER YOU
WERE GONNA BE ON WITH YOUR STORY 'CAUSE IT HAD IMPACTED ME SO
MANY YEARS AGO WHEN YOU WERE HERE, AND SHE SAID,
"WELL, I KNOW WHO HE IS." SHE SAID, "DID HE GET SAVED?" AND I SAID, "YES, MOM." AND THEN I FIGURED OUT SHE
THOUGHT I WAS TALKING ABOUT HOWARD STERN. I SAID, "NO, MOM,
THIS IS HOWARD STORM." BUT WE'RE PRAYING
FOR HOWARD STERN. ANNA: YES, ABSOLUTELY. JONI: WELL, HE WAS A DEVOUT
ATHEIST AND COLLEGE PROFESSOR DRIVEN TO CHALLENGE AND CONVERT
ANY BELIEVER HE CROSSED PATHS WITH, BUT HE HAD LITTLE IDEA
THAT HE WOULD SOON BE CONFRONTED WITH THE REALITY OF
JUST HOW TRUE ETERNITY IS. SO LET'S GO BACK, IF WE CAN,
HOWARD, TO A FACT THAT YOU-- GOD HAD GIFTED YOU WITH A
GREAT MIND AND A HIGH IQ. YOU BECAME A COLLEGE PROFESSOR,
AND TELL US ABOUT THOSE EARLY DAYS OF TEACHING, AND
WHY WERE YOU SO BENT ON DISCOURAGING CHRISTIAN STUDENTS? HOWARD STORM: WELL, ONE OF THE
WAYS OF INTERPRETING OUR CULTURE IS IT'S ALL ABOUT SUCCESS, LIKE,
BECOMING SOMETHING, AND ONE WAY TO DESCRIBE IT IS
BECOMING A EGOMANIAC. YOU KNOW, REALLY SUCCESSFUL
PEOPLE ARE JUST PASSIONATE ABOUT THEIR SUCCESS. THEY GOT THEIR BLINDERS ON,
AND THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYBODY OR ANYTHING. THEY DON'T CARE WHO THEY STEP
ON, WHO THEY WALK OVER TO GET THERE, AND THAT'S WHAT I GOT:
THE BIGGEST, BADDEST BEAR IN THE FOREST WINS. DOG EAT DOG.
BE THE BADDEST DOG. THAT'S WHAT I GOT OUT OF MY
CULTURE, AND CHRISTIANITY SEEMED TO NOT REPRESENT ANY
OF THAT STUFF AT ALL. CHRISTIANITY SEEMED TO BE LIKE
WIMPY AND, LIKE, SILLY, AND THE PEOPLE THAT I KNEW IN THE
UNIVERSITY ALL BELIEVED IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD AND SCIENCE
AND MATERIALISM, AND ANYTHING THAT WASN'T OBSERVABLE AND
TESTABLE WAS FANTASY OR LUNACY. JONI: RIGHT, AND YOU AND I
TALKED EARLIER THAT, AT THE END OF THE DAY, ONES AT THE BOTTOM
OF THE WOODPILE, IF YOU WILL, OF MANY OF THOSE HEARTS, ARE
INDIVIDUALS THAT DON'T WANNA BE ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD. HOWARD: ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LOVE ABOUT GOD IS THAT I HAVE A
HIGHER AUTHORITY THAT I HAVE TO ANSWER TO WITH EVERYTHING I
DO, HOW I SPEAK TO YOU AND HOW I SPEAK TO YOU AND HOW I TREAT
YOU AND WHAT I THINK ABOUT YOU. JONI: OKAY, SO LET'S GO
BACK TO THAT FAITHFUL DAY. YOU HAD TAKEN SOME OF YOUR ART
STUDENTS TO PARIS, FRANCE, TO STUDY SOME OF THE
ART EXHIBITS THERE. YOU HAD BEEN THERE FOR THREE
WEEKS, AND ON THE LAST DAY, SOMETHING HAPPENED; WHAT WAS IT? HOWARD: YEAH, I HAD A
PERFORATION OF THE SMALL STOMACH, AND IT KNOCKED ME
TO THE GROUND IN TERROR, SCREAMING, KICKING. I DIDN'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT
IT WAS, SO MY WIFE CALLED THE DESK AT THE HOTEL. THEY CALLED, AN EMERGENCY
SERVICE DOCTOR CAME VERY QUICKLY, GOT ME OFF THE GROUND
AND SAID THAT "YOU'VE HAD A PERFORATION OF THE DUODENUM,
AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE SURGERY WITHIN AN HOUR,
YOU'LL PROBABLY DIE." SO HE CALLED AN AMBULANCE, AND
THEY TOOK ME TO THE BIG CITY HOSPITAL WHERE I WAS EXAMINED
IN EMERGENCY BY TWO VERY KIND DOCTORS AND X-RAYED AND MEDICAL
HISTORY AND ALL THAT STUFF AND SAID THE SAME THING THAT THE
DOCTOR AT THE HOTEL DID, AND THEN THEY SENT ME BY GURNEY OFF
TO THE SURGICAL HOSPITAL, BUT, UNFORTUNATELY, SOCIALIZED
MEDICINE, A SATURDAY, THERE WAS NO SURGEON AVAILABLE AT THE
SURGICAL HOSPITAL 'CAUSE THEY ONLY WORK FIVE DAYS A WEEK. JONI: SO I SAID, IF YOU--A
SCALE FROM ONE TO TEN, WHAT WAS YOUR PAIN LEVEL? HOWARD: TEN, AND IT GOT WORSE. RACHEL: HOW DID IT EVEN HAPPEN? DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW YOU
HAVE THAT PERFORATION? JONI: MAYBE ULCERS. HOWARD: IT MIGHT BE AN ULCER,
OR IT MIGHT'VE BEEN A FOREIGN OBJECT, LIKE A LITTLE PIECE OF
GLASS OR SOMETHING HAD GOTTEN LODGED IN MY STOMACH;
WE'LL NEVER KNOW. JONI: BUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING
WAS, BECAUSE IT PERFORATED, THEN THE ACID FROM THE STOMACH
WAS LITERALLY DRIPPING, I GUESS, AND CAUSING DAMAGE TO-- HOWARD: I WAS DIGESTING
MY INSIDE WITH MY OWN DIGESTIVE JUICES. CINDY: YEAH.
HOWARD: IT BURNS. ANNA: SO WITHOUT A
SURGEON, WHAT HAPPENED? HOWARD: TEN HOURS,
NO MEDICATION, NO DOCTOR'S ORDERS, NO NOTHING. IT'S SO HARD FOR AMERICANS TO
UNDERSTAND THIS--JUST NOTHING. JONI: AND YOUR WIFE IS THERE,
TRYING TO GET SOMEBODY TO HELP YOU, BUT THEY'RE NOT ABLE
TO LOCATE A DOCTOR TO COME. HOWARD: YEAH. JONI: SO, OKAY, SO THERE YOU
ARE IN EXCRUCIATING PAIN, AND SOMETHING SUPERNATURAL HAPPENS. HOWARD: SO A NURSE SAID THEY
AREN'T ABLE TO LOCATE A DOCTOR. THEY'LL TRY AND GET IT THE NEXT
DAY, AND I SAID GOOD-BYE TO MY WIFE, AND I WENT UNCONSCIOUS,
AND THEN I WOKE FROM THE UNCONSCIOUS, AND I FELT
COMPLETELY PHYSICALLY INTACT AND BETTER THAN I'D EVER FELT
IN MY WHOLE LIFE, AND I TRIED TO COMMUNICATE WITH MY WIFE. GOT NO RESPONSE FROM HER.
I SAW ON THE BED-- JONI: YOU SAW YOURSELF? HOWARD: I SAW MYSELF, AND
THAT WAS EXTREMELY UPSETTING, SO NOW I'M CONFUSED,
I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. I MEAN, I'M, "LOOK,
AM I LOSING MY MIND? WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?" AND THEN I HEARD PEOPLE CALLING
ME OUTSIDE THE ROOM, AND THEY'RE SAYING, "HOWARD, HOWARD,
COME ON, COME WITH US. WE'RE WAITING FOR YOU." AND I WENT OVER TO THE ROOM,
AND I SAID, "I NEED A DOCTOR. I'M SUPPOSED TO HAVE SURGERY." AND THEY SAID, "WE
KNOW ALL ABOUT YOU. WE'VE BEEN WAITING
FOR YOU A LONG TIME. YOU'VE GOTTA COME WITH US NOW." SO I THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE
GOING TO TAKE ME TO A DOCTOR, THEORETICALLY, TO SURGERY, AND
INSTEAD, THEY TOOK ME ON A VERY LONG JOURNEY INTO ABJECT,
COMPLETE DARKNESS, AND AT THE END OF THE JOURNEY, WHEN
I REFUSED TO GO WITH THEM ANY FURTHER, WITH THEIR
FINGERNAILS AND THEIR TEETH, THEY TORE ME APART TO SHREDS. CINDY: HMM, AND DID
YOU FEEL ALL OF THAT? HOWARD: OH, YEAH, VERY MUCH. JONI: YOU FELT ALL OF THAT,
AND YOU SAID, IN THE NATURAL, HAD IT BEEN THESE EARTHLY SUITS
THAT WE'RE WEARING RIGHT NOW, IT WOULD'VE KILLED YOU, THAT IT
WOULD'VE BEEN MORTAL WOUNDING. HOWARD: OH, ABSOLUTELY. JONI: BUT IT WAS LIKE YOUR
SPIRIT MAN WAS BEING DESTROYED, AND THEN, ALL OF A SUDDEN,
YOU HEAR A VOICE THAT SAYS-- HOWARD: "PRAY TO GOD." AND I THOUGHT, "I
DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD." AND THE VOICE SAID, "PRAY TO
GOD," A LITTLE MORE INSISTENT, AND I THOUGHT, "I
DON'T KNOW HOW TO PRAY." AND THE VOICE SAID, VERY
INSISTENT, "PRAY TO GOD." AND I THOUGHT, OKAY, WHEN I
WAS A KID, AND I SAID SOME-- I MUTTERED SOME PRAYERS, AND TO
MY GREAT SURPRISE, THE PEOPLE AROUND ME WERE SCREAMING AT
ME, "THERE IS NO GOD. NOBODY CAN HEAR YOU. WE'RE GONNA DO MUCH WORSE
THINGS TO YOU," BUT WHILE THEY'RE SCREAMING THESE THREATS
AT ME, THEY'RE ALSO BACKING OFF INTO THE DARKNESS. JONI: 'CAUSE YOU
WERE SAYIN' "JESUS"? HOWARD: YEAH. JONI: YOU WERE
SAYING THE NAME OF JESUS? HOWARD: SO I CALLED ON JESUS
EVENTUALLY WHEN I DROVE THEM OFF, AND I SAID, "JESUS, PLEASE
SAVE ME," AND WITH THAT, JESUS CAME AS A TINY PINPOINT
OF LIGHT, GOT VERY, VERY BRIGHT, VERY QUICKLY. LIKE, THERE'S SOME BRIGHT LIGHTS
IN THIS ROOM RIGHT NOW, BUT HIS LIGHT WAS MUCH BRIGHTER, SO IT'S
A FUNNY KIND OF LIGHT BECAUSE IF IT HAD BEEN THIS
LIGHT, IT WOULD'VE HURT. IT WOULD'VE BEEN TOO INTENSE,
BUT IT WAS FULL OF LOVE, AND OUT OF THIS BODY OF LIGHT THAT
WAS STANDING BEFORE ME, EMERGED HANDS AND ARMS, AND HE REACHED
DOWN AND TOUCHED ME, AND WHEN HE TOUCHED ME, ALL OF THE GORE THAT
I WAS JUST DRIFTED AWAY, AND I BECAME COMPLETELY INTACT, AND
HIS HANDS WENT UNDERNEATH MY BODY AND GENTLY PICKED ME UP AND
HELD ME VERY, VERY STRONGLY UP AGAINST HIM, AND I HAD MY ARMS
AROUND HIM, AND MY INTENTION WAS TO NEVER, EVER LET HIM GO,
WHICH, IN A WAY, I'VE BEEN TRYING TO HANG ON TO HIM-- JONI: YOU'RE STILL HOLDIN' ON. YOU'RE STILL FALLIN'
INTO HIS HAND. YOU SAID SEVEN YEARS AGO
THAT YOU HAD NEVER, EVER FELT ANYTHING LIKE THIS, AND
THE BEST WAY YOU COULD DESCRIBE IT IS LIQUID LOVE. HOWARD: YEAH, HIS LOVE
IS NOT--IT'S NOT AN EMOTION. IT'S NOT A THEORY.
IT'S PALPABLE. IT PERMEATES YOUR BEING,
AND I HAVE TO GO TO THAT MEMORY OF THAT LOVE
FREQUENTLY IN MY LIFE BECAUSE IT'S REALLY WHAT OUR
BEING COMES FROM. GOD IS LOVE, AND THAT'S THE
SOURCE OF OUR BEING, AND IT'S REALLY LIKE WHAT OUR SOUL
IS, AND WE NEED TO GET IN TOUCH WITH THAT
ONCE IN A WHILE. JONI: OKAY, SO, ALL OF A
SUDDEN, YOU SAID, AS HE'S WRAPPED HIS ARMS AROUND YOU, HE
WHISK YOU INTO ANOTHER TIME AND ANOTHER PLACE RIGHT
OUTSIDE OF HEAVEN. YOU THOUGHT IT WAS
RIGHT OUTSIDE OF HEAVEN. HOWARD: WE WERE
RIGHT OUTSIDE OF HEAVEN. WE HAD MOVED VERY
RAPIDLY OUT OF-- JONI: WHAT DID IT--BEFORE WE
TALK ABOUT WHAT HE SAID. WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE, LIKE,
WHERE YOU WERE AT THAT MOMENT? HOWARD: WELL, AS WE'RE
APPROACHING HEAVEN, MY FIRST IMPRESSION WAS THAT IT WAS THE
MOST GINORMOUS GALAXY IN THE UNIVERSE, AND THEN I REALIZED
THAT ALL THE COMPONENTS, ALL THOSE LITTLE TINY BITS OF LIGHT
WERE ALL MOVING IN AND OUT, AND SO, LIKE, OKAY, STARS
DON'T MOVE THAT WAY. YOU KNOW, THEY GO AROUND, YOU
KNOW, IN ORBITS, AND THEN I REALIZED THAT THEY WERE ALL
BEINGS, BILLIONS AND BILLIONS, TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS OF
BEINGS COMING AND GOING. JONI: SO DID YOU SEE HEAVEN
IN FRONT OF YOU WAS--I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT
THAT FIELD, THE GRASSY FIELD THAT'S IN FRONT OF HEAVEN. DID YOU SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
HOW DID YOU-- HOWARD: OH, YEAH, JESUS GAVE
ME A TOUR OF HEAVEN, AND IT'S FULL OF EVERYTHING THAT ONE
COULD POSSIBLY EVER HOPE FOR. EVERYTHING THAT'S GOOD IS
THERE, AND IT'S ALL BEAUTIFUL. THERE'S NOTHING
BAD ABOUT HEAVEN. ANNA: DID YOU
SEE PEOPLE IN HEAVEN? HOWARD: OH, YEAH, BUT I
DIDN'T GET TO INTERACT 'CAUSE JESUS AND I WERE GETTING A TOUR. JONI: AT THAT POINT, YOU DIDN'T
KNOW THAT YOU WEREN'T GONNA GET TO GO INTO HEAVEN, BUT THEN, AS
A PROFESSOR, YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU WOULD INTERVIEW TEACHERS
THAT WOULD COME TO THE SCHOOL. YOU WERE ONE OF THE ONES THAT
WOULD DO THE INTERVIEW SO-- HOWARD: I WAS THE HEAD
OF THE DEPARTMENT, YEAH. JONI: YEAH, AND SO YOU HAD A
MILLION QUESTIONS FOR JESUS, BUT ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU
TOLD ME THAT HE SAID TO YOU, AS YOU KIND OF THOUGHT--YOU
DIDN'T EVEN SAY IT. YOU JUST THOUGHT, "I DON'T
DESERVE TO BE HERE," AND HE SAID TO YOU, "I'VE LOVED YOU
EVERY DAY OF YOUR LIFE." HOWARD: YEAH, AND HE
SAID, "WE DON'T MAKE MISTAKES. YOU DO DESERVE TO BE HERE.
YOU BELONG HERE." I WAS, YOU WERE, WE WERE ALL
MADE TO--THIS WORLD IS SCHOOL. IT'S REALLY THAT SIMPLE.
THIS WORLD IS SCHOOL. THE CURRICULUM, WHAT WE'RE HERE
TO LEARN, IS TO LOVE GOD AND TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AND OURSELVES,
AND THEN, WHEN WE GRADUATE FROM THIS SCHOOL, WE GO TO HEAVEN
TO BE WITH GOD FOREVER, AND IN HEAVEN, WE BECOME MORE
AND MORE LIKE CHRIST. WE GROW IN HEAVEN. JONI: OKAY, SO WHILE YOU WERE
THERE, YOU SAID THAT YOU BEGAN TO ASK HIM ALL
KINDS OF QUESTIONS. HOW DID HE RESPOND TO THOSE
QUESTIONS, AND HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO ASK ALL THE
QUESTIONS YOU WANTED TO ASK? HOWARD: OKAY, SO I WENT THROUGH
12 YEARS OF PUBLIC SCHOOL, 4 YEARS OF UNDERGRADUATE SCHOOL,
7 YEARS OF GRADUATE SCHOOL-- BEST TEACHER I EVER HAD, KIND,
PATIENT, AND THE THING THAT I LOVED ABOUT HIM IS HE'S REALLY
INTO AV, AUDIOVISUAL AIDS. SO, LIKE, HE WOULD SHOW ME
THINGS, HE WOULD TAKE ME PLACES, HE WOULD
TRY AND EXPLAIN. IF I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND
SOMETHING, I'D SAY, "I DIDN'T GET THAT." HE'D SAY, "OKAY, LET
ME EXPLAIN IT TO YOU. I NEED TO MAKE IT MORE SIMPLE." LIKE, ONE OF THE THINGS, I SAID,
"SO WHAT'S THE WHOLE POINT? WHAT'S THE WHOLE
POINT OF THIS LIFE?" AND HE SAID--AND HE EXPLAINED
IT TO ME, AND I WAS LIKE, "I TOTALLY DIDN'T
UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING." AND HE SAID, "OKAY," HE
SAID, "HERE, UNDERSTAND THIS. IT'S A GARDEN." WE ARE PART OF GOD'S GARDEN, AND
WE'VE BEEN PUT HERE TO BLOOM. SOME OF US DON'T BECAUSE WE,
FOR WHATEVER--FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS, CHOOSE NOT TO, AND
SOME OF US DO, AND GOD WANTS ALL OF HIS BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN
TO BLOOM, SO, LIKE, THAT'S MY JOB, THAT'S YOUR JOB. WE'RE HERE TO BLOOM AND TO DO
WITH THE GIFTS THAT WE'VE BEEN GIVEN, ALSO KNOWN AS TALENTS, TO
USE THOSE TO OUR BEST ABILITY. JONI: OKAY, SO AFTER YOU--HE
ANSWERED ALL THESE QUESTIONS, ABOUT WHAT--HOW LONG DID IT
TAKE, LIKE, 'CAUSE, AGAIN-- HOWARD: LONGER THAN I WENT
TO GRADUATE SCHOOL, WHICH WAS THREE YEARS. JONI: SO IT FELT LIKE
THREE YEARS IN HEAVEN? HOWARD: YEAH.
JONI: WOW. HOWARD: IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO
MEASURE TIME IN HEAVEN 'CAUSE THERE IS NO TIME. I WANT--WHEN I GO BACK, I HAVE
MY BUCKET LIST OF THINGS TO DO, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF MY
HEROES, BESIDES JESUS, IS SAINT PAUL, AND I WANNA HAVE
SOME TIME WITH SAINT PAUL. I MEAN, WE MIGHT NEED-- JONI: OH, YOU GOT YOUR BUCKET
LIST FOR HEAVEN, I LOVE THAT. I WANT TO ASK EVERYBODY
WHAT THEIR BUCKET LIST IS. WHAT'S YOUR BUCKET
LIST FOR HEAVEN, SUZY? SUZY: OH, I WANNA GO BACK, AND
LIKE A MOVIE, I WANNA WATCH THE HISTORY OF THE EARTH, FROM DAY
ONE, TO WATCH IT LIKE A MOVIE, WOULDN'T THAT BE COOL? JONI: THAT WOULD BE.
ANNA, WHAT ABOUT YOU? ANNA: WELL, I'M LIKE YOU,
I REALLY LOOK FORWARD TO SPENDING TIME WITH PAUL. HE'S MY FAVORITE NEW TESTAMENT
PERSON BESIDES JESUS, SO I REALLY LOOK
FORWARD TO THAT. JONI: RACHEL? RACHEL: I WANNA SEE ALL THE
PEOPLE THAT I NEVER GOT TO MEET, LIKE MEET JOSH'S DAD
AND YOUR BROTHER AND DAD'S SISTER, AND ALL THE PEOPLE. FEMALE: ALL YOUR LOVED ONES. JONI: I LIKE THAT TOO, I THINK I
WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK THROUGH THE HISTORY OF OUR FAMILIES AND
JUST MEET A LOT OF OUR ANCESTORS AND HEAR THEIR
STORIES; AND CINDY? CINDY'S LIKE, "I JUST
WANNA SEE MY BROTHER AGAIN." CINDY: YEAH.
JONI: AND YOUR DAD. CINDY: YEAH, AND, YOU KNOW, I
HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT A WHOLE LOT 'CAUSE, I GUESS, I'M
SO AMAZED BY GOD HIMSELF AND JESUS, JUST WANTING TO
ACTUALLY SEE THEM AND JUST BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY
COMPREHEND THEIR PRESENCE. JONI: WELL, OKAY, AT SOME
POINT, JESUS TOLD YOU, YOU AREN'T STAYING;
DID YOU ARGUE WITH HIM? HOWARD: YES, BECAUSE ANYBODY
WHO'S HAD ANY GLIMPSE, ANY HINT OF HEAVEN, WANTS TO
BE THERE 'CAUSE IT'S THE BEST, AND THIS IS NOT. AND I WANTED TO GO AND BE IN
HEAVEN FOREVER AND EVER, AND HE SAID, "NO." HE SAID--HE LITERALLY SAID,
"YOU DO NOT HAVE THE CHARACTER. YOU WOULDN'T FIT IN. YOU NEED TO GO BACK AND DEVELOP
A CHARACTER TO FIT INTO HEAVEN." SO I'VE BEEN BACK HERE, TRYIN'
TO BE THE KIND OF PERSON THAT GOD CREATED ME TO BE SO
THAT I CAN GO TO HEAVEN. JONI: OKAY, WELL, WE HAVE TO
NOW GET YOU BACK INTO YOUR BODY, AND WE NEED TO GET
SURGERY FOR YOU. SO, OKAY, YOU'RE BACK IN YOUR
BODY, AND YOU HAD FELT NO PAIN, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU'RE
FEELIN' THAT EXCRUCIATING-- HOWARD: I'M BACK IN THE PAIN,
AND A NURSE, IMMEDIATELY, WHEN I CAME BACK, INSTANTLY,
THE NURSE CAME BACK, AND IT WAS NOW 9 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT. THIS HAD HAPPENED BETWEEN 8:30
OR 9, AND SHE SAID, "A DOCTOR HAS ARRIVED AT THE HOSPITAL, AND
YOU'RE GONNA HAVE THE SURGERY NOW," WHICH IS CRAZY, YOU KNOW,
A DOCTOR SHOW UP AT 9 O'CLOCK ON SATURDAY NIGHT WHEN
THERE WAS NO DOCTOR ALL DAY? BUT, ANYWAYS, GOT THERE, AND
I NEEDED THE SURGERY, YOU KNOW? JONI: SO YOU
WENT INTO SURGERY. WAS EVERYTHING
SUCCESSFUL IN CLOSING THAT? HOWARD: NO, IT WAS
A DISASTER ACTUALLY. ON TUESDAY, GOD SAID TO ME--NOW,
THIS WAS AUDIBLE, LIKE, WHEN I SAY, "GOD TALKED TO ME," USUALLY
IT'S, LIKE, IN MY HEAD, RIGHT? BUT THIS WAS
AUDIBLE IN THE ROOM. NOBODY WAS IN THE
ROOM, UNFORTUNATELY. GOD SAID, "YOU NEED
TO GO HOME ON--" THIS WAS ON TUESDAY. "YOU NEED TO GO HOME ON SUNDAY
'CAUSE YOU'RE GONNA DIE HERE," BECAUSE I'D BECOME SEPTIC. JONI: OH, WOW. HOWARD: BECAUSE OF THE LACK
OF ATTENTION, THE INFECTION HAD SPREAD THROUGH MY WHOLE
BODY, AND THEY HADN'T CLEANED ME UP PROPERLY SO-- JONI: SO YOU FLEW BACK
HOME AFTER THE SURGERY. HOWARD: WELL, I WAS GOING
DOWN PHYSICALLY IN THE FRENCH HOSPITAL, AND THEY
WEREN'T GIVING ME ANYTHING. THEY WEREN'T DOING ANYTHING.
IT WAS AWFUL. SO I FLEW HOME, AND THE DOCTOR
WHO ADMITTED ME, WHO WAS MY FAMILY DOCTOR, SAID, "I
DON'T KNOW HOW YOU MADE IT HERE. YOU'RE WAY TOO SICK.
HOW'D YOU EVER GET HOME?" I WAS IN THE HOSPITAL
FOR THREE MONTHS. JONI: FOR THREE MONTHS?
HOWARD: YEAH. JONI: OKAY, SO, INTERESTINGLY
ENOUGH, EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE IN THE HOSPITAL, ARE
YOU TELLING EVERYONE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU,
AND WHAT ARE PEOPLE THINKING? 'CAUSE I UNDERSTAND YOUR WIFE
WAS AN ATHEIST, AND YOU WERE SURROUNDED BY A LOT OF
ATHEISTS, AND PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T BELIEVE IN GOD. HOWARD: YEAH, MY KIDS,
DOCTORS, NURSES--IT WAS A DISASTER BECAUSE I DIDN'T
WANT ANYBODY TO GO TO HELL. THAT WAS NUMBER ONE IN MY MIND. "I DON'T WANT YOU
TO GO TO HELL." AND I WANTED
PEOPLE TO KNOW JESUS. JONI: IT'S A REAL PLACE, RIGHT? HELL IS A REAL PLACE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE-- HOWARD: NOT ONLY IS IT REAL,
BUT PEOPLE WHO REJECT JESUS, GOD, ARE GOING THERE, AND THAT'S
NOT--IT'S NOT, LIKE, OPTIONAL. IT'S NOT LIKE, "HMM, I
WONDER IF I WANNA GO THERE." NO, NO, THEY'RE GOING THERE. LOOK, PEOPLE IN HELL WANT
EVERYBODY THAT COMES DOWN THERE TO BE IN THE SAME STATE
OF TORMENT THAT THEY ARE. JONI: DID YOU SEE ANY DEMONS? 'CAUSE, I MEAN, I'VE
INTERVIEWED PEOPLE WHO-- HOWARD: NO, NOT--LATER,
IN THE HOSPITAL, I SAW DEMONS, BUT NOT IN HELL. JONI: OKAY, SO YOU STARTED
TALKING TO YOUR WIFE AND YOUR FAMILY ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED
BECAUSE YOU WANTED THEM TO KNOW ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLE
EXPERIENCE YOU HAD. HOWARD: YEAH, AND THE
THING THAT GOT SO DISCOURAGING, EVERYONE SAID TO ME, "YOU
NEED TO SEE A PSYCHIATRIST. YOU'RE CRAZY," YOU KNOW,
"GET OVER IT." "OH, IT'S JUST A DRUG--"
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I, LIKE, HATED WAS PEOPLE WOULD
SAY, "OH, IT'S JUST A DRUG TRIP," AND I SAID, SERIOUSLY,
THEY DIDN'T GIVE ME ANY DRUGS. I BEGGED FOR DRUGS ALL DAY,
"GIVE ME SOME DRUGS TO HELP WITH THE PAIN," AND THEY
NEVER GAVE ME ANYTHING. JONI: HOW DID IT END WITH AS
FAR AS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL AND BEIN' A PROFESSOR? HOW DID YOUR LIFE CHANGE, AND
WHO NOTICED THE DIFFERENCE? HOWARD: WELL, EVERYBODY
NOTICED THE DIFFERENCE, BUT THE PROBLEM WAS THAT ALL OF MY
FRIENDS WHO HAD BEEN MY GOOD FRIENDS, AND WE ALL MOCKED
CHRISTIANS, THE WORD GOT AROUND VERY QUICKLY THAT I'D BECOME A
CHRISTIAN, AND THEY WERE VERY UNHAPPY, AND I GOT SHUNNED,
AND IT WAS INTERESTING 'CAUSE I WOULD SEE A FRIEND OF MINE,
YOU KNOW, IN THE CAFETERIA OR WALKIN' DOWN THE CAMPUS OR
SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND THEY'D SEE ME, AND THEY'D JUST
GO THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. THEY DIDN'T WANNA HAVE
ANYTHING TO DO WITH ME. THE OTHER THING THAT WAS
DISTURBING WAS, AS A PROFESSOR OR TEACHER, I BEGAN TO REALIZE
THAT A LOT OF THE STUDENTS' PROBLEMS WERE SPIRITUAL
PROBLEMS, YET BECAUSE OF THE UNIVERSITY, I WASN'T SUPPOSED TO
TALK TO THE STUDENTS ABOUT THAT STUFF, SO I DID A LOT OF
CLOSED-DOOR COUNSELING WITH MY STUDENTS TO TALK TO THEM
ABOUT SPIRITUAL THINGS AND ABOUT GOD AND PRAYER AND STUFF LIKE
THAT, AND I WAS THREATENED, THREATENED BY MY BOSS, THE
DEAN OF LIBERAL ARTS, TO NOT DO THAT KIND OF STUFF. JONI: BUT, AND YET YOU
COULD DISCOURAGE CHRISTIAN STUDENTS FROM SERVING GOD. HOWARD: OH, THAT WAS FINE. JONI: THAT'S FINE,
BUT YOU COULDN'T-- HOWARD: NOT MUSLIM STUDENTS,
NOT SHINTO STUDENTS, NOT BUDDHIST STUDENTS, NOT
WICCA STUDENTS, WITCHES. YOU CAN--YOU DON'T--YOU KNOW,
NO PROBLEM ABOUT, YOU KNOW, TALKING--YOU KNOW, YOU
DON'T TALK ABOUT THEM. IT'S CHRISTIANS--CHRISTIANITY
YOU CAN'T TALK--THAT WAS TABOO. JONI: SO YOU SAID--I KNOW
SUZY ASKED YOU THIS QUESTION ABOUT LOOKING INTO
THE EYES OF JESUS. YOU SAID YOU'VE PAINTED HIM,
BUT THEY WERE BLUE, BUT THEY HAD EVERY COLOR. THERE WAS ANOTHER GUEST THAT I
INTERVIEWED THAT WENT TO HEAVEN THAT SAID THE VERY SAME THING. WHAT IS IT YOU CAN TELL US
ABOUT THE PERSON OF JESUS? HOWARD: THE MOST IMPORTANT
THING IS, YOU KNOW, GOD CAME INTO THIS WORLD, CALLED THE
INCARNATION, FROM BIRTH, FROM CONCEPTION, ALL THE WAY
UP THROUGH DEATH, TO EXPERIENCE WHAT WE EXPERIENCE. YOU KNOW, THE VERY GOD OF GOD
IS SO BEYOND THIS WORLD THAT, IN SEMINARY, WE CALL IT "GOD'S SUCH
A MYSTERY BECAUSE HE'S SO GREAT, SO BEYOND THIS WORLD," BUT
TO COME AND LIVE OUR LIFE TO EXPERIENCE US, YOU KNOW, TO
STUB HIS TOE, TO BE INSULTED, TO LAUGH WITH US AND TO EAT OUR
FOOD AND SLEEP IN THE SAME HOUSE, I MEAN,
IT'S, LIKE, AMAZING. HE TOTALLY GETS YOU AND ME. HE REALLY, REALLY GETS
US, AND YOU KNOW WHAT? HE LIKES WHAT HE SEES. I'LL TELL YOU WHAT
JESUS DOESN'T LIKE. WHEN WE HARM OURSELVES, HARM
ONE ANOTHER, AND REJECT GOD, THOSE MAKE HIM VERY UNHAPPY, AND
THIS MAY BE A BIT OF EXAGGERATION, BUT IT'S LIKE,
WHY WOULD YOU STICK A KNIFE INTO THE HEART OF GOD? 'CAUSE, WHEN YOU BLASPHEME,
WHEN YOU SAY "G-D" AND "THE J TERM" AND, YOU KNOW, STUFF LIKE
THAT, YOU'RE LITERALLY STICKING A KNIFE INTO SOMEONE
WHO LOVES YOU SO MUCH. WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?
THAT'S CRAZY. DON'T DO THAT, AND THE
BIBLE SAYS, "DON'T DO IT." JONI: WELL, YOU EVENTUALLY
WERE CALLED INTO MINISTRY TO PASTOR A CHURCH. HOWARD: YUP. JONI: HOW DID YOUR
LIFE CHANGE AFTER THAT? HOWARD: I PASTORED FOR 30 YEARS. I LOVED IT BECAUSE I LOVED THE
CHURCH 'CAUSE, DO YOU KNOW, THE CHURCH IS MADE UP OF A BUNCH OF
FALL-DOWN, FLAWED SINNERS, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LOVE
ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, IT'S LIKE, AS FAR AS I KNOW, AND,
HOPEFULLY, THIS IS TRUE, WE ALL KNOW WE'RE SINNERS, AND WE ALL
NEED GOD, AND WE ALL NEED HELP, AND WE ALL NEED FORGIVENESS. ANNA: WE CAN'T DO
IT BY OURSELVES. HOWARD: AND WE'RE ALL
STRIVING TO DO THE CHRISTIAN THING, TO FOLLOW
JESUS AND FOLLOW HIS WAY. THERE'S A FEW PEOPLE IN THE
CHURCH THAT ARE DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH, BUT
THEY'RE THE RARE EXCEPTION. THERE ARE A LOT OF SAINTS IN
THE CHURCH, AND THERE'S A LOT OF SUPER
BEAUTIFUL, OLDER PEOPLE. I MEAN, THERE'S SOME
PEOPLE THAT I WANTED TO ADOPT. I MEAN, I'M TALKIN'
ABOUT THIS LITERALLY. I MET OLDER PEOPLE THAT I WENT,
"WILL YOU PLEASE BE MY MAMA?" "YOU BE MY GRANDPA," YOU KNOW? SO THE CHURCH IS A WONDERFUL
PLACE, AND I BELIEVE THAT THE CHURCH IS THE ONLY
HOPE OF THE WORLD. THE CHURCH IS THE PLACE WHERE WE
CAN RAISE YOUNG PEOPLE IN FAITH, WHERE WE CAN TAKE CARE OF
PEOPLE THAT HAVE DIFFICULTIES, ESPECIALLY TAKE CARE OF THE
ELDERLY AND STUFF LIKE THAT, AND IT'S A PLACE WHERE WE CAN
SET VALUES THAT THIS WORLD WOULDN'T COME UP ON THEIR OWN. JONI: YEAH, WELL, I THINK
YOUR STORY IS FASCINATING. AND HE'S WRITTEN A BOOK,
"MY DESCENT INTO DEATH," AND WHAT AN INCREDIBLE STORY. RACHEL, WHEN YOU HEAR THESE
STORIES, IT JUST MAKES HEAVEN EVEN MORE REAL AND
PALPABLE, DON'T YOU THINK? RACHEL: ABSOLUTELY, AND
YOU'VE BEEN LOVING THESE STORIES LATELY. JONI: WONDER WHY, I WONDER
WHY I'M LOVING THESE STORIES? ANNA, DID YOU LOVE HEARING THAT? ANNA: I LOVED HEARING THAT, AND
I WANNA KNOW MORE ABOUT JESUS. LIKE, HOW TALL WAS HE? HOWARD: OH, PROBABLY 6'4"?
AROUND 6'4"? HE WAS TALL. JONI: OKAY, I'VE HEARD
PEOPLE SAY, 6'2", 6'4". SUZY: I'VE HEARD THAT, YEAH. JONI: YES, DIFFERENT.
SUZY, ANY OTHER LAST QUESTIONS? SUZY: NO, I'M JUST HAPPY, AND
I JUST WANT HIM TO COME SOON. JONI: CINDY? CINDY: YES, I FEEL THAT WAY TOO,
AND I THINK YOUR STORY HELPS SO MANY OF US JUST HAVE A
GLIMPSE OF WHAT WE HAVE TO LOOK FORWARD TO, SO I
THANK YOU FOR THAT. HOWARD: OUR LIFE IN THIS WORLD
IS VERY, VERY SHORT, AND WE'RE GONNA SPEND FOREVER AND EVER AND
EVER IN HEAVEN, SO WE DON'T HAVE--OUR JOB RIGHT NOW IS TO
MAKE THE BEST OF WHAT WE'VE GOT. JONI: YES, AMEN, WELL, WE ARE
OUT OF TIME, AND I WANT YOU TO REMEMBER THAT GOD HAS A
PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE. HOWARD: AMEN. JONI: HEAVEN IS REAL,
AND HE WANTS YOU TO SPEND ETERNITY WITH HIM. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SURRENDER
YOUR LIFE, GOD CAN USE YOU TO IMPACT SOMEONE ELSE'S LIFE, AND
SO, IF YOU'RE WATCHING TODAY, AND YOU HAVEN'T ACCEPTED THE
LORD AS YOUR SAVIOR, OR MAYBE GOD IS CHALLENGING YOU TODAY
TO SURRENDER TO HIS PLAN AND DIRECTION FOR YOUR LIFE, I
WANT YOU TO CALL THAT TOLL-FREE NUMBER ON THE SCREEN, AND WE
HAVE PRAYER PARTNERS THAT ARE STANDING BY THAT WOULD
LOVE TO PRAY WITH YOU. SOME OF YOU JUST SAY, "WELL, I
JUST WANNA MAKE SURE THAT I'M READY TO MEET THE LORD, I
WANNA BE SURE, WHEN I DIE, THAT I'M GONNA GO TO HEAVEN." YOU'RE THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO
CALL RIGHT NOW, SO CALL THAT NUMBER ON YOUR SCREEN,
LET US PRAY WITH YOU. YOU CAN ALSO SEND US YOUR PRAYER
REQUEST BY GOING TO DAYSTAR.COM, AND CLICKING ON "PRAYER," BUT
I DO WANNA THANK HOWARD FOR SHARING HIS POWERFUL
TESTIMONY WITH US. BE SURE TO PICK UP HIS
BOOK, "MY DESCENT INTO DEATH." WE JUST BARELY SCRATCHED THE
SURFACE, AND FOR MORE ON HIS MINISTRY, YOU CAN VISIT
HIM AT HOWARDSTORM.COM. ALSO, REMEMBER TO JOIN THE
CONVERSATION ONLINE BY LEAVING US A COMMENT ON FACEBOOK,
INSTAGRAM, TWITTER, OR YOUTUBE. WE ALWAYS LOVE HEARING
HOW "TABLE TALK" HAS TOUCHED YOUR LIFE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING. I PRAY THIS HAS ENCOURAGED YOU
AND THAT THOSE OF YOU THAT HAVE LOST LOVED ONES, AND YOU KNOW
THEY KNEW THE LORD, AND YOU KNOW THE LORD, GUESS WHAT? ETERNITY IS A LONG,
LONG, LONG TIME. THIS LIFE IS BUT A VAPOR
COMPARED TO THE LIFE TO COME. MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE
READY TO MEET THE LORD. WE'LL SEE YA NEXT TIME.
BYE-BYE FOR TODAY.
