When a Mormon Bishop Shames You on Social Media - Tonya Guest - Mormon Stories Ep. 1130

hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I'm your host shaundalyn it is June 11th 2019 and we are broadcasting live to you today from our studios at Mormon stories podcast headquarters in Salt Lake City Utah and we have a bit of a different story for you today and I'm really excited about it today we are interviewing Tonya guests and I don't expect that to be a name that is familiar with a bunch of you but Tonya is Mormon she lives in Hermon Utah and she reached out to me let's just say a month or so ago maybe more maybe less and she was kind of feeling a lot of feels because she had posted a comment on Facebook about an issue regarding women in the church and her bishop publicly responded to her Facebook post and they kind of got in a dialogue where the bishop became I would say very inappropriate publicly on Facebook not just sort of calling her to repentance for her post publicly but also even disclosing some of the content of conversations they had had privately in his role as a bishop and so Tonya reached out to me and said hey John have you ever had this happened before you know should I be upset about this or not I don't know if you were asking that but but anyway I was like oh no this is this happens and it's awful when it does and so we took some time just a process whether or not you know Tonya felt like she wanted to tell the story with the intent as you know as we know in 2019 most Mormon revelation or policy changes these days are grassroots comes from the bottom up whether it's Sam Young helping the church change its policies around interviewing children or the sexually explicit questions whether it's you know Kay Kelly and and feminism and ordain women or of the church history essays the gospel topics essays that were a result of you know the efforts of many many people over time and of course the repeal of the November 2015 policy and the change on ceilings in the temple like all these this sort of these vitamin inspired revelations or policy changes that Russell Nelson is making these days are clearly the result of people speaking up and so our heart our intent and tani you can tell me if you disagree but our intent for today's episode is to help encourage the Mormon Church to implement new policies with its priesthood leaders so they don't ever publicly shame or even engage their members on social media when they're in the role of Bishop as Bishop and they certainly don't disclose confidential private information that they obtained in those private confidential bishop conversations so that's our intent we've also gathered some stories from our listeners so that others who have had similar experiences will be discussing those but that's what today's gonna be about we're going to hear Tanya's story we're gonna actually read and discuss her exchange with their Bishop talk about how it made her feel how I made her husband feel who's still believing active member talk about how the church can change and then we'll read some of your own stories and discuss them as well for you on Facebook live if you are joining us and you have stories you want to share we love to take live comments or questions or feedback or stories and read them on the air it just makes things a little bit more interesting and a little more interactive so hope you guys are ready for an important and interesting discussion so if that any further ado Tonya guests welcome to Mormon stories podcast thank you so I gave the intro but Before we jump into your story little is there anything you want to correct about the intro no I think that sounds about right okay let's just start with your kind of Mormon story a little bit just to give us a sense for who you are what your Mormon journey was what due to this predicament okay um I grew up in an active family I mean I we went to church I mean we weren't like super Orthodox maybe but we went to church weekly where where were you Payson pshaw okay that's southern Utah all those who don't know Utah where is it like mid Utah mid south of Provo yeah yeah yeah north of Cedar City yes we're in there okay yeah I then moved in in high school I moved in with my aunt and uncle who were super Orthodox so that was a bit of a change but it was fine um I had like my rebellious years as a teenager and then you know went back to church gained my testimony not my husband we got married in the temple how'd you how did you regain your testimony or how did you gain it what happened so rebellious user in high school or after school in college okay where's gonna call this you've you okay yeah um how did you have kind of your soul in the road to Damascus I think I just I was partying a lot and I was not feeling happy with where my life was going and so I saw all these people oh my god let's give that a try that looks good and so I felt good about it okay forward with it did you was it a spiritual testimony like a confirmation kind of thing or yeah I think so um as I've thought about it over the past few years I think I had a testimony in like the healing that I felt and um some positive things in the church but not ever really in Joseph Smith on the details yeah and just kind of like I don't know I think that's I think that's common when people aren't happy and when life isn't going making them feel the way that they want to feel they look for something to help provide that structure right yeah yeah and that did that for me it was good okay did you did you kind of let's just say have your conversion before you met your husband yeah okay so were their missionaries involved was um no no just friends friends who brought me to church and I went along did you have to go through some sort of unsavory repentance process or anything like that or yeah okay and I'm not that's not me trying to pry it's more to talk about you know I'm those bishops interactions this is a we're talking about a bishops interactions yeah and so you had a pretty heavy bishops interaction yeah prior was that positive was it negative ah hard it was hard I mean it was uncomfortable it was hard I didn't love sharing things but there was never like I never felt like it was inappropriate um but it wasn't like a pleasant experience okay but I mean yeah okay but you made it through made it through and how how soon thereafter did you meet your husband probably a year later okay yes so tell us about that courtship okay we we dated a few months got engaged and then trying to remember we dated for maybe nine months before we were married okay yeah and you murdered the temple so was that all positive for you was it hard it was it was uncomfortable it I wanted it to be really positive I wanted to feel good I wanted those things everyone shared with me but I remember feeling it just was very awkward and very uncomfortable but I looked to my family and I was like well the thing I like Phillips all good then I guess I should do you know maybe it's just that it's a new experience I guess was my reasoning mm-hmm and um but it was definitely uncomfortable I mean you've probably heard about the changes they've made you know I've heard some yeah yeah talk a bit about I asked you about kind of whether you had a feminist awakening prior to your you know Facebook post and you told me you've kind of always had some of that do you want to talk about that at all kind of like feminist your thoughts around gender equality going back in your childhood and or adolescence um I think I've just always felt that way that there was an inequality and being aware of it um and not always knowing how like what I could do um so it's always been there and I think all the types of things that bugged you growing up or yeah there were a lot of things um I think I didn't always notice the things within the church maybe I do not want to see or I don't know chose not to see but I think my perspectives had definitely changed the last few years so for you you you more notice gender inequality just in your life in school or home or yeah okay but you had never kind of brought that lense to Mormonism no okay okay so you so you get married yeah how long you been married oh boy nine years maybe okay so what was that like so the temple ceremony wasn't great but you just kind of pressed on yeah and tell us about your faith journey over over the past nine years um yeah I felt like I just did it all I followed the path I was supposed I mean you're supposed to go on had children fairly soon after we were married and then I guess probably four years ago I had a friend who left the church and she started talking to me about some things and I wasn't super open didn't want to discuss them I felt like I didn't have like the knowledge to like have a discussion um and then after some time I was like I want to be there for her and I want to build up my testimony so I can have these discussions and help her I wanted to help her and so I started researching things on my own and I was like whoa what is all this some shocking things for me well what were the things Oh a lot of the historical issues with Joseph Smith and polygamy and I feel like anything you read in like the CES letter I was like whoa how how come I've never known about this like I've been remember my whole life I didn't feel like I was super sheltered but I mean I was unaware of so much what was that like um it was really painful it was hard I felt deceived but then I really wanted to make it work I was trying to find answers and um started I mean I talked with my husband about it and friends and well like one friend um a little bit with family the bishop to try to help me understand because I was like what is this whole new world that I had no idea about how long ago was this um three and a half years ago okay so three and a half years ago you're going down the CES letter out at hole and we're people able to help you out we're did your husband did the bishop did anyone give you good answers well were there some specific topics you mentioned polygamy and stuff in the CES letter yeah were people helpful I think I mean it was helpful to have the discussion so that I felt like I could be more open in my thoughts and concerns and that it was good to hear other people's perspectives and not necessarily just hole like one whole side but I never felt good with like what I'd read like I couldn't just like ignore it or like justify those things I didn't feel good about okay so that was still three and a half years ago so how did you survive just keep going so did your relation with the church change at that point or not at the time I still wanted to be like an active part of my community I kept a calling like it was in the young woman's and then one day I was asked to teach a lesson on priesthood and I was like I can't do this so we went and talked to the bishop and that's when I started I guess talking with him about my concerns how long was that Oh probably three years ago okay okay and so three years ago you stop taking callings is that right um actually no I had a calling until about a year and a half ago okay yeah well what types of colleagues were you able to do is kind of a shouting slash non-believer um Relief Society secretary okay yeah I liked being able to interact with a lot of people and get to know new people in our neighborhood um but also there were hard things about it right right okay and you know mix faiths marriages are famously hard but you guys are still together so I at least until now you guys are still able to navigate that and you stayed in your calling so when did then when did things start getting rough what happened um probably after my baby was born I asked to be released first baby third baby last baby okay and when was that um about a year and a half ago okay 15 months 16 months ago okay um I asked to be released and that was fine they released me and then I think things changed dramatically when I had asked the bishop if I could hold the baby during the baby blessing my husband wanted to bless her we kind of went back and forth about it and debated about doing it at home and then doing it at church and then I was like I want to do it at church I want to hold the baby talk about that what were you what were your thoughts around that why and then had you thought about how that might be received um well initially I didn't want to do anything at all but then I was trying to be respectful of him and I mean no baby blessing it may be a blessing at all okay cuz you're not by this point you're not believing anymore okay but but babies get blessed in Mormonism yes and I knew my husband wanted to and I wanted to be respectful of his beliefs right I was like okay we can do this we'll do it at home and then I read somewhere or heard somewhere about a mother like holding the microphone during the baby blessing and I was like are you kidding me like she is like that's the only way a mother can participate is by standing on the outside holding the microphone I just like blew my mind and then I was like well no I'm gonna ask to hold my baby and I like read the handbook and I researched what I could online and I didn't see any role against a parent holding a child or a baby in a blessing um and I debated about just doing it and then I thought no I'll talk to the bishop about it beforehand and he said no so you could you asked for an appointment yeah did you go in by yourself first um he actually came to our house okay and met with us and so you just said what you say I don't remember I think I probably just told him I wanted to hold the baby would that be okay Bishop yeah and how did he say it he said no I was against the handbooks and I it was I remember it was crazy cuz I had a newborn that was hungry and I had two other children running around so it was hard for us to have like a real conversation going back and forth but so I didn't feel like the conversation went as well as I'd liked so I emailed him after and explained why I didn't see it was against the handbook and like tried to maybe convince him of my side or my point but it was a no okay and then I was like well then can I at least hold the microphone like the job that a twelve-year-old boy gets can I have that job and did he give a good reason the handbook okay he stated it was against the handbook and when you asked about holding the microphone What did he say he said sure okay so you gonna hold the microphone not the baby yeah okay yeah it's like blew my mind I was like I don't understand why I mean cuz I mean I knew I wouldn't be allowed to participate and stand in the circle I thought maybe I could just hold the infant but no but so yes I he approved of holding the microphone so did you hold the microphone I did you did it I did it how did it feel for him to say no you couldn't hold your baby oh it was really angry it made me so and I just hated that I had to even ask like permission to hold my baby yeah like right just kind of blew my mind but you went along with it I guess so you so you held the microphone and what was that like um was it better than sitting like yeah I'm glad that I got up there at first I was like this is like humiliating just that I'm like the same as a microphone stand like I'm just an object here like mmm but I'm really glad I did it I was frustrated before the blessing he got up and spoke and talked about how they wanted to include me in the blessing and so they had invited me to hold the microphone I had a big for this it was their idea yeah oh that's yucky I was frustrating okay but I'm glad that all my family and friends and people in the neighborhood could see it maybe a different perspective hopefully right so okay so you held the microphone and it felt okay but I mean I didn't love it it wasn't yeah like great but I tried to make the best out of it okay okay so then how does your story proceed so I think since then I mean I haven't really talked to him since then I haven't really been to church super often um and then if about a month ago a couple weeks ago so you hadn't talked to him about your faith crisis I mean we had talked a couple years ago right and he didn't provide you with good support no it was I just felt like I would leave our meetings very hurt and frustrated and confused because he's telling me one thing in my mind is feeling another way and my heart was feeling another way and I just I just felt like there was always so much blame put on to me that I just couldn't meet with him anymore it just it was causing a lot of pain and it wasn't helpful so we stopped a meeting was part of it I mean the point isn't to shame or embarrass your bishop but was part of his his style or personalities yeah and this is the same Bishop throughout the whole time yeah okay yes okay so these experiences with your faith crisis and with the baby a bill they billed to what happened yes yes so I write on Facebook I think that just crossed a line for him right hmm well so let's talk about that so your what beige you decide you wanted to write something on Facebook or post something did your did your testimony or on testimony or were you know loss of faith your faith journey progress in some way that the led to you wanting to post something I don't know if it progressed or changed I don't I don't know how II just felt like I wanted to share my thoughts about it and I honestly felt like it was a harmless little post I even had like checked with my believing sister I was like hey do you think this is like to attack E or negative or people gonna be upset and I think it's fine like brushed it off and so I was like okay what were you feeling what were you wanting to express that I feel like there's an inequality between men and women in the church and I feel like so many people aren't willing to recognize or won't recognize I mean there are a lot of people who are so I just wanted to share my opinion and thoughts about it okay and with what end we'll just self-expression yeah I think so we trying to take away people's faith or change people's mind or nah no I mean I think I would love for people to be a little more open-minded and see that women aren't always treated fairly right or that they aren't given the same power or voice it's on the church but not with any attention to change like people's belief or faith right okay so you ran it by your sister she a believer she yeah okay Sharona by your husband I guess that that's not very feminist that's good that's probably okay and okay so you decided to post it yeah do you want to start by reading what you posted sure let me pull it up here um okay so I posted I've been told repeatedly throughout my life that as a woman in the LDS Church that I have value that I'm equal to a man why don't I feel or see the Equality because of Satan subtle ways and my own selfishness feminism why does the church continually need to address this if there isn't a problem why is Utah ranked last in gender equality in the United States why am i as a woman not allowed to even hold my newborn baby while she's given a priesthood blessing from her father please stop telling me that I'm an equal and show me that I am an equal and then you have three links yes what are the links one was to a page on lds.org about women's roles and responsibilities okay another was just linking to Utah's ranking so gender equality was that the KETV article okay and then so local news story yeah and then I think another conference talk looks like okay so you and then an image what was the image it was an image of showing how many men spoke in conference versus women in the amount of time that was given to men and reread the what are the stats on that so this one was an old one it was from October I think it says 2018 men were given three hundred and ninety three minutes women were given forty seven minutes there were 29 male speakers four female speakers seven male prayers and three female prayers and it looks like that's from the October 2018 general conference yes okay so you're pretty much only stating facts and asking questions yeah yeah point to the church website yes couple other websites anti links no anti anything and stating facts yes and asking questions yes as a woman who has strong feelings about this yes okay all right so now what I'd like to do is we're gonna kind of know if role plays the right word but I'm gonna take on the role of your bishop and read his responses to you and we'll read the dialogue back and forth a little bit and we'll just we'll talk about his response your your exchange and let's interject kind of how it felt for you okay okay so what was there anything is there anything you want to say about the response before your bishop chimed in there were a lot of people who were very negative in attacking there were people who came in of you of me questioning my role as a mother my belief of my role as a mother if I valued it if I value being a parent and yeah I felt like there was a lot of negative comments and personal attacks and I was like wait what does this have to do with like I don't know how my motherhood and my value of motherhood is being brought into this so were these family members friends the award members were they just random people on the internet you didn't know um friends um like for instance my new friends from high school friends of friends okay family I mean there were a lot of comments from people in my neighborhood in Ward but those were a little bit later on after the bishop started commenting okay so you're asking some questions about equality in the church and people are questioning your commitment to motherhood yes okay that's not fun no okay and you're feeling a bit attacked yes okay so were you starting to regret having posted it or we feeling like it needed to be posted even more after that yeah I folks find about it okay okay so how did you find out that your bishop had chimed in have you had any social media interactions with them prior to this no were you Facebook friends yes we were Facebook friends okay um I I don't have facebook on my phone so I hadn't received any notifications a friend texted me and said can you believe what your bishop said and I was like wait what did he say so I had to like go get my computer and log in and read it and um I think it was even the next day and I like you pulled my husband over Mike you've got a rate of the bishop just said like this is insane all right well let's let's do it is they gonna be triggering for me to read all right so I'm playing the role of Tommy's Bishop currently her bishop and yeah of her harriman ward okay I think that there are so many that do not want to respond to this post for fear of offending okay so first of all the bishop is now acting his voice for many people he says who don't want I'm gonna throw in my comments yeah so like he's saying basically what I read from that is board members are coming up to be complaining about your post so I'm gonna speak for them yeah how do you read that sentence I agree and yeah angry like I hate that already yeah cuz it makes you I mean it would make me feel like everyone's against me everyone's talking about right it was yeah I was like oh wow okay and then I mean after this had happened I heard from some people that some people did message him and talk to him and saying that he needed to say something on Facebook because I was posting anti so the fact that things Ward members are like complaining instead of engaging you directly there the running of their bishop and kind of telling on you and then asking him to talk to you it's a very kind of a passive-aggressive indirect kind of Mormon thing to do okay so back to your bishop he responds yet they find some of the comments somewhat offensive or at least belittling to win woman and men who believe differently okay you asked for equality but I am Not sure that is what you really want or are asking for okay what's your response to that I have a response but go ahead yeah so like well he's questioning your motives that you're not really wanting equality but you want something else like as a man I mean this is mansplaining yes primo yes what's your response getting into this I want to keep her do you want to keep reading yes okay you don't respond to that sense okay back to the bishop to you be equal is that you want woman to hold the priesthood or to be the same okay I did not remember are you writing that right man and he keeps saying woman instead of women I don't know why he's yeah I know so he then writes man and woman are equal before the Lord but by nature they are different I'm not I mean I'm not arguing that men and women are different but that's the separate but equal thing it's like Plessy vs. Ferguson the black drinking fountains and the white drink he founds that that's it because the moment okay not less but different okay so he's telling you they're not less does it not follow that if in nature we are different that we have we have primarily different roles the Lord offers us access to the same blessings a man cannot enter a temple without taking upon himself the oath and covenant of the priesthood young or old yet a woman can enter without it and receives every blessing offered a man is that equal is that fair apparently a woman does not need it to receive everything the father has why does a man could it be the father has already given her what she needs to return to him and receive all he has to offer men and women have divinely different roles thank goodness the church continues to change policies but not core doctrines the family a proclamation to the world is the doctrine it outlines the divine roles and responsibilities to which both a woman and a man can receive everything you do not give woman or womanhood enough credit oh my goodness I'm about to jump out of it it would appear that you want men and woman to be the same when I believe the Lord wants us to celebrate and honor the differences not to oppress but to bless and fulfill oh my gosh I'm taking deep breaths yeah okay so you did respond but at what anything you want to say just about his response I don't know there was a lot there it brings up a lot of feelings so what about this argument if equal still equal but different roles because nature you're different so you must have different roles um I guess my issue with thighs I don't want to be told what my role is because I think it could be different maybe what would work for my family would be for my husband to stay home so I feel like it's unfair to define what my role in life is and not give me any other option and of course it's been doing it yeah yes exactly so same blessings and then he talks about how women get all these women kind of get into the celestial kingdom without things that men have to do that's because Heavenly Father's already given a bunch of stuff to women that he hasn't given to men how does that make you feel does that make you feel better than because it's like no women are doing so much and then are doing some but I just don't see I guess the correlation in his mind between what women and men have to do to receive the blessings right and then he says the church doesn't change its core doctrines thoughts on that no yeah I mean look at looked at the Doctrine and Covenants how much it's evolved over time look at the the doctrine of polygamy and how it was a requirement for eternal salvation and now it's called not even doctrinal look at blacks in the priesthood which was by a First Presidency statement declared as doctrine unchanging doctrine in the 50s and now it's been repealed like so much has changed yeah and and by the way he's quoted the proclamation on the family which hasn't even been canonized it's not even part of the scriptures and yet he's calling a doctrine which that's fine but it's part of my problem with this whole thing is that he's speculating here he's giving his opinion about all these things as if he's speaking for the church he's in a role of authority over you and then he's speaking his opinion as if it's doctrine but I guarantee you they're members of the quorum of the twelve that would not agree with the things he's saying agreed but that doesn't even address the point that this is your bishop calling you out in public reprimanding you publicly yeah which is just weird yeah there's a life like there is so much like I can't even like comment on every little thing yeah okay so and again that's it's a classic thing to say women get that babies women get to go the social Kingdom without this or that therefore it's clear the Lord's blessing them they should be grateful for what they get they just don't happen and be decision makers and all the core decisions and leadership opportunities that would shape their lives in the lives of their children and the lives of other members but you get all these other things like bearing babies I mean that's a classic response yes I think there are a lot of comments from other people about that on my post alright so Tanya think you're such a good sport will you read what your response to your Bishop is yes I am not sure you understand or know my beliefs of women or motherhood so it seems unfair for you to assume that I don't give women enough credit I can see inequalities between men and women everywhere I don't believe that it is just a problem within the LDS Church I could make a list about Mormon history of where women did not have all the same privileges as men in the church that isn't the point of my post I am NOT asking that men and women be the same I am merely sharing my feelings that I don't have an equal voice in this religion if God wants to celebrate and honor our differences why not allow more women to share and have more of a voice very respectful response you're basically saying please don't tell me what I think or what I believe right yeah I see inequalities it's not just a Mormon thing yeah you know I'm not even asking for sameness I'm just sharing my feelings that they don't have an equal voice women don't have an equal voice which is kind of a fact right and I don't know how to art how the other side argues that but yeah people do I mean the best you could say is that that's the way God wants it so sorry I mean that's at least that that's an argument that could be made yeah I guess okay who all read the bishops response Tonya you do not believe that these men are apostles and prophets of God oh my goodness yeah I was like okay I didn't say that right now I wondering if at that point he's invoking things you had shared with him privately in your conversations because he's either making a huge leap or massively violated your confidentiality which was it a huge leap okay that was a huge issue you had not told him in your private conversations that you don't believe that there are apostles and prophets of God I mean maybe we had talked about it I can't remember any specific conversations but either way I mean even if we if I had I mean that had been over two years ago I would know right now right exactly yeah so either it's an egregious leap or a huge egregious assumption but either way it's kind of really offensive yeah and inappropriate he goes on to write you do not believe that they speak the mind in will of God you do believe in Jesus Christ question mark was he the son of God God incarnate question mark we have been studying the four Gospels in Sunday school have you found anything or any reference anywhere that Christ treated men and women differently he called twelve apostles who were all men that's you know one on one thought but okay was Christ equal to men and a woman in his treatment if anything he treated women better okay so now Christ is treating women better than men again it's sort of this you women have extra don't you even see it it's almost a form of gaslighting it's like don't you see all the extra things you women get you don't even need to be asking for you know equal roles and responsibilities and equal say right referring to so going on the bishop rights they were clearly among his closest of friends and associates meaning women that's kind of like I have a black friend yeah it's like I have a gay friend Jesus so he said Jesus regarding women they were clearly among his closest of friends and associates he even showed himself as a resurrected being to marry before his disciples and even before he returned to his father okay yet not one of the Twelve Apostles or the seventy he called oh yet not one of the Twelve Apostles or the seventy he called to administers Church and go before him in the world anciently were woman not one okay so now he's basically saying Christ was equal so since he was equal but only called men that it must be okay okay so he writes was he being prejudice or bias towards women what would your answer to be if you only called men as apostles or seventy he's basically asking you rhetorically was he being prejudice or bias towards women what would your answer be yeah question what's that seems like it the answer's no with an exclamation point was he being in Christ afraid to change the accepted customs of the times no he clearly did just that I don't know what he's talking about there there was another reason what was it he was God in the flesh how can a church that calls itself after his name and for its doctrine claimed it as his restored Church not be organized the way he organized his church anciently question mark it can't and I just have to say Christ didn't organize a church like Christ taught a bunch of teachings and cults of apostles to teach it but he didn't organize a church I mean we have written that into the story but he didn't organize the church anyway this isn't this is not about equality it is about truth okay he's in people in the truth card you can know if it is true if you will read study and pray about the Book of Mormon it is true Joseph Smith is a prophet of God these men you speak of our prophets of God women in the church do things that only paid ministers do in nearly all faiths on the earth do men and women sometimes abused authority given them he says yes does that mean woman must hold the priesthood to be equal to men not in God's church if it is what it claims to be okay you didn't even talk about women the priest so how are you feeling at this point like in the conversation obviously I think I was just surprised a little maybe like flabbergasted like why are you even why is it why are you bringing all these other things into this like I'm only talking about one thing you're bringing in eight other things yeah yeah and chastising you and giving his opinion is truth and that's kind of belittling you and man slip blaming you yes okay okay so your response I responded going on that morning I just wrote again it seems unfair for you to assume my beliefs that's all you wrote that's all long diatribe yes that's all yeah but he was you he responds more another huge paragraph okay Bishop comes back I will touch on one more thing you have raised which may be even more important you have carried your children in your womb for nine months your husband had to depend solely upon you and God to bring that child to light that miracle and sacrifice of pregnancy and birth has given you a bond to that child that never will be broken again he's telling you all about you and your children your husband telling me it is something a man does not have yet you and your children must now depend on your husband to bless and protect you in the family through the priesthood he bears is that how he obtains the same bond yet you would in the name of equality take that away ho ho so what are you taking away like whoa how is he connecting that now you've you're wanting to take a bond away from it what do you have any idea what he's because he's assuming that I want women to have the priesthood that that would change between my husband and children okay if I were to have the priesthood like you know me just like strengthen our whole family bud so the idea is that since you will have a special bond with your kids having born them and raised them as a traditional mom that dads need title and Authority and priesthood blessings and fathers blessings and prominent roles in the church because that's gonna be the way that they form bonds with their children yeah except what I hear is how often the priesthood leads fathers to be working outside the home to the point of almost neglecting their kids sometimes like when I've interviewed children of bishops and state presidents or General Authorities or wives of bishops or stake presidents of General Authorities or bishops and such as the General Authorities who used to serve those callings they're like if anything sometimes the priesthood callings would take them away from their children family definitely but anyway he's basically doing that again where he's saying you got your thing stop taking this away from me and I'm like okay I have motherhood motherhood he has fatherhood okay right not sure right yes oh this is really hard okay you're a good sport he goes on he's not done the codependency creates love codependent secrets love unity and respect it creates a family oh he means the interdependence II kind of like you have your role he has his together that creates love unity and respect only if people act loving and respectfully right right if they don't then it doesn't i fear that what you want again he's telling you what you want i fear that what you want is not equity but validation and vindication you were offend okay he means you were offended you were offend because you fill fill instead of feel fill you were deceived by an organization you trusted now that was not in your facebook boys so now he's pulling to you that has to be him talking about your your private conversations with him as a bishop so now he's lecturing you on a Facebook page about private conversations you had with him as bishop when he went through your faith crisis two years previous yes right yes exactly and he's pulling the old trope of you were offended so you don't have genuine concerns about gender equality you didn't leave that you were offended because I was offended right okay you're offended because you feel you were deceived by an organization you trusted unfortunately you did not do what the organization counseled you to do seek obtain and maintain a testimony okay I've got a pause so he's lecturing you for not obtaining and keeping your testimony and that's why you fell away do you have a quick response to that oh not a quick one like I I mean first of all for him to like sure that was so incredibly violating and hurtful but I know I hate that he is telling everybody that I'm just offended that that's why I have questions why I anything because of a fence not because I didn't follow what I was counseled to do yeah there's also just that you did it wrong you didn't pray right oh it's all the blame is all on me right right he did it all wrong and anyone has been through a faith crisis in 2019 knows that when you're going through a faith crisis the more you read The Book of Mormon the more questions you get and the more agitated you get and the more you pray and you don't get the answers you want and the more you read things from General Authorities or talk to bishops or state presidents what happens I mean tell us I caused a lot of pain for me and a lot of questions and a lot of hurt and a lot of doubt right I mean more and then when you're told you didn't do it enough or you didn't do it right um and you were just offended yes it's very painful just felt like he's trying to shame me and put the blame all on me and that I did it all around I'm like I tried I tried yeah and they're just their issues like it's okay for me to have these not be okay with some of the things yeah yeah and there are hundreds of thousands of people going through this including children and grandchildren of apostles right so it's not just you it's his own children his own grandchildren right his own siblings his parents like it's everywhere right the Brethren can't stop talking about faith crises because they're everywhere and if it were simply a matter of reading the Book of Mormon and praying and following the commandments what then I guess there wouldn't really probably problem because who wants to lose who wants to lose all the assurance that the gospel provides all the comfort all the community all the safety who wants to lose that I I don't you know I didn't great it's incredibly incredibly painful such a hard experience to go through to lose like your footing your ground that you stand on to not know what is true like what you believe it's it's so painful and I wish people could understand that I mean I think a lot of people do understand that a lot of people don't yeah all right so he's not done he's only halfway done with this response he writes he continues you still refuse to find out for yourself instead you run out and take four facts the lies distortions and deceptions for truth you lash out against the truth seeking others to validate you and or in hopes of causing harm okay so now he's actually accusing you of intentionally trying to cause harm and and he's saying that everything you've learned are lies distortions of deceptions what were your sources of learning the things you learned and read one of the first books I read was I think by Grant Palmer's yeah I mean it's always the Book of Mormon it's always the Journal of discourses it's always the Book of Mormon itself it's always prophetic utterances it's if it comes to grant Palmer or Jeremy Runnells they're just providing quote after quote after quote of primary sources right like anti-mormon sources no but he's judging your intent is awful oh just as a child he continues just as a child throwing a tantrum or an animal being prodded by a sharp stick kicks out aimlessly to seek to cause harm but often only succeeds in causing it's self-harm so he's not just comparing you to a child but to an animal that's just kind of blew my mind honestly I was like is he really comparing me to a little child throwing a tantrum here for posting this and comparing me to an animal yes and if anyone's tantruming tantrums right his are Tantrums like this is grounds for removal from office I think this bishop should be put through disciplinary Council just for what I've read because this is outrageous this is demeaning yes this is belittling and somehow that's not a problem within Mormonism no and then yeah somehow that's not subject to a disciplinary council or removal from a leadership position somehow the way he's talking to you and return your confidences is not a problem I don't understand that I don't know he goes on the Scriptures call it kicking against the pricks unfortunately it also it is also the spirit of apostasy a spirit of anger and revenge I do not read anger and revenge in your post where's the anger I mean you may feel angry but you aren't posting angry and is it yeah like you weren't like you don't have like a YouTube channel where you're ranting about the church do you know I don't know what he's talking about here kicking it's the pricks spirit of apostasy like the bar for apostasy that one hurt that one hurt apostasy it's like oh all for sharing that I felt like women should have more of a voice and be equal yeah okay he says a spirit of anger and revenge one will consume your soul you seek that which is contrary to truth and you will never be satisfied you begin to fight truth rather than seek it rather than being filled with the love of God and light like him you become consumed by anger and darkness he's calling you darkness yeah yeah dark and loathsome we've heard this before he concludes this response to your one sentence comment please seek truth and real answers like his do not openly allow yourself to be deceived you have so much to offer and have so much given do not throw it away and he spells throw th ro ug H do not threw it away okay like I am I did not remember being this egregious yeah yeah there's so much there's a lot anything you want to say about that diatribe of anger tantrum no no I don't have anything specifically there's just a lot how it made you feel like I it was really hurtful I I think I was still really shocked it his responses at this point in that he was calling me names on my Facebook page and trying to me what felt like throwing out the spirit of apostasy and that I was filled with anger and darkness I'm like are you trying to discredit me here making sure though it just there's so much a lot of feelings about that it's hard for me to put into words I am so so sorry like we're dramatizing this and I'm kind of ranting a little bit but this is deeply insulting and hurtful and painful and I'm so sorry thank you it's yes it's heard but I mean I tried a lot about it yeah all right so who's Nathan okay my husband okay so we and we've taken out some of the comments from this thread not not to change any meaning or intent but but to make it to not betray other people's confidences right to not hmm you know but but it's not like we're cutting out mean things you said to the bishop everything the bishop and I stated to each other and it's still on your wall right we'll see if as of June 12th that's still there but as of June 11th any of you listeners can right now go to Tonya guests timeline what's the approximate date of the post made somewhere mid mid May 2nd may 2nd 2019 Tonya guest you could actually see the bishops comments there if you want to you know well I won't invite people but the bishops comments are still there they're still there ok so so we we edited out other people's responses just for the sake of time but then Nathan responds Nathan respond do you want our in Nathan's your believing husband of how many years now nine years do you wanna read Nathan to jump me to reading it I'll read his okay he wrote you have crossed several lines here Tonya was not in any way trying to make this about the priesthood or motherhood she's simply is stating that if women are equal then we should hear their voices more she just wanted to voice how she felt she was not attacking you then in turn called her like a child throwing a tantrum and put words into her mouth this is not about the priesthood and not about motherhood but wanting women to be heard and you only make things worse in your approach yeah well husband supports you believing husband supports you how was that it felt really good did you ask him to post that commenter no he had read it and then he's all on his phone I'm like what are you doing what are you reading so yeah was he getting upset bishop he was very angry and that's how because he just wants to be a normal member and have his beliefs and doesn't want to have a fight with this ecclesiastical leader who signs his temple recommend he decides whether you like own the temple or not you know and all that so how did it feel that Nathan kind of came to your defense I loved that he stood behind me I mean that he had my back and was supporting me and was defending me mmm good job good job Nathan okay so then you respond do you want to read your response I wrote I am not sure how many is sharing my feelings and pointing out in justices that I see is taking away the bond between my chill or my husband and our children I am not sure how any women participating in priesthood blessings take away from the bond of a father and a child I'm not asking for men to give women the priesthood I don't think they need permission from a man to exercise the power they innately have but how does a mother or woman exercising or using the priesthood power take away it take anything away from a man how is that changing a bond is it possible that the bond become between the family unit could become stronger I don't see why the focus here is on what a man would be losing and then I continued and you were right I was hurt by the church but my questioning isn't because I was offended it is because there are serious issues that I have problems with and I did try to do what the organization taught me to do it is possible that the problem might not do me oh yeah yeah okay sorry okay there's a sentence I did everything I was supposed to do oh did I skip that maybe but I just love it so much if you did a number people don't know where I oh no yes I felt like I did I hide even after I had my questions anyways everyone does okay you're it it is possible that okay let me okay and it's possible that the problem might not be me it could be that there are problems and issues within the church I am tired of being being told that it is me the problems are me I have that I have the problems I did not have enough faith I didn't pray enough didn't attend the temple enough the list could go on and on but I did those things I tried but there came a point where I realized that maybe it wasn't just me being deceived by Satan maybe there were actual issues and it was okay to acknowledge those in my true feelings about them and then I continued on with a and I'm just going to say that the church is now acknowledging in 2019 that there are major issues whether it's Plex and the priesthood polygamy you know women and the priesthood DNA with the Book of Mormon book of Mormon historicity Book of Abraham take your pick the church is acknowledging their deep issues there they've replaced all those awful apologists like Daniel Peterson at the Maxwell Institute they put in people like Spencer lumen and Patrick Mason and all they're doing is basically saying hey you know all these problems we hid and punish people for talking about it turns out that they're legitimate and you know now let's start trying to be more pastoral and support people who go through these faith crises and they're trying to issue guidance is for how to deal with people in faith crisis they just haven't shared it with your bishop yet because he's violating everything any current church leader would ever recommend so they're not training their bishops on how to deal with people in faith crisis take a note church headquarters create some bishop training and state president training on how to deal with people who have a faith crisis this is exhibit a of what not to do okay I continued with a quote I feel like it's anyways often quoted I wrote I was a Jew Reuben Clark yes Jay Jay Reuben Clark I wrote I would also like to encourage everyone to seek to find their own truth and real answers and then the quote is if we have the truth it cannot be harmed by investigation if we have not the truth it ought to be harmed and then one more I added bishop I am deeply I'm also deeply offended that you were comparing me sharing my thoughts to a child throwing a tantrum I guess when people are counseled to talk with their Lea oh that it was okay to have questions oh i don't know how i phrase this i guess when people are counseled to talk with their leadership or that it is okay to have questions those were just lies yeah and so you're basically saying i am offended why are you treating me yeah i am offended now you have every right to be offended actually yeah okay well that's a that's a fair response even even probably restrained they're streamed a lot okay I'll read the Bishop's response if you haven't had enough listening audience there's more Bishop writes a public forum is the wrong place to have a discussion because it lacks so much context this conversation is now over two years old not just an innocent post of an opinion okay so he is invoking again your private conversations with him yeah continuing with the bishop in the beginning I spent many hours talking to you and trying to understand your opinion and the many questions you had I spent many more hours researching the sites and books you gave me help me understand where you were getting your concerns I read through the sites claiming they were just innocent questions only to find the most vile lies and misrepresentations of truth I discussed them with you I spend hours researching valid information with real source material and offered that to you I believe you dismissed most if not all that material because you felt it was biased I'm sure he's talking about like fair fair Mormon apologetics like it probably was biased like what what materials did he give you um he sent me just like the church essays [Laughter] yeah which are biased right yeah of course they're violently he's seeming so angry that he what's up with the like it seems really personal to him I am Not sure I I mean my husband and I talked about it cuz I was like why is he like taking this so personal like why is he attacking me and so angry with me and I don't know I don't know I mean there's the possibility that you're causing him to question his own I mean that this situation is causing him to doubt his own beliefs which makes him angry but if he's just complaining that he had to do the job of a bishop publicly great is that he shows ours sorry is that what Bishop sir like is this the place for a bishop to be should vicious be publicly complaining about the time they spend with their members I think on their Facebook pages or your Facebook page yeah this is a rogue bishop I don't think most bishops would act this way I mean I we interviewed Scott Purvis a couple weeks ago about a really mean state president when he was serving his bishop and he is so I guess the doctrine Kevin says right occasionally men abused their authority in power and it's the nature disposition of all men to sometimes do that but this is weird yeah continuing yet you accept for truth material without references okay grant Palmer doesn't have references Jeremy Runnells is never ever wait there are plenty of references yeah without references because it agrees with your views so you're just doing it because you're just believing this stuff because it agrees with you now great we have held special meetings to address the very topics and asked individuals to research and provide the information with real data so what he's providing you is real data what you've been reading is unsighted propaganda I don't know he provided you real data and I guess he means the church essays what he says real data I think so which are essays contextualized in a biased way with footnotes and you at the core of this discussion is a testimony of Joseph Smith and again his smells Joseph he needs to start spelling Joseph right what do you write without it nothing matters with it everything makes sense the only way to know that is to read and pray about it and you have refused okay again he's saying that you never tried that you never read and you never prayed is that true that's what he's saying but no I tried I prayed so much yeah I tried and he said you just refused all right I'm not sure where that's coming from yeah and again he's basically making the argument that the more you learned about Joseph Smith the more you'll gain a testimony and I think the opposite is true the less people know about Joseph Smith the more likely they are to have a testimony of him the more they actually read about his life the more problems and so Joseph Smith isn't the answer to people like us he's the problem and that's not to say you can't believe it I'm good they're good people I know who believed in him but I don't think it's too it's rarely through studying the details about his life that they get there right it's to praying after they've heard a lesson about some whitewashed version of something that happened that they gave a testimony of him and that's how they get it well I would like to think that then he stopped right or that he at least gave you a chance to respond but now there's a whole longer paragraph he writes that has no verse without a response from you so I mean he's really on a tirade at this point is there anything you want to say before I read his next paragraph listeners I I apologize for the level of depth but this is important and the church needs to learn a lesson you should be outraged and disgusted by this and this Bishop you know we're gonna get to the fact that the state president knows that this bishop has had this conversation with her the state president after seven attempts at contacting and discussing has refused to talk with Tanya at all we'll get to that the bishop is still serving his bishop and is not taking any of these comments down and has not apologized to Tonya as he apologized okay so forgive us while we continue here is more from the bishop so here is the core of the concern and I sincerely apologize for you assuming I called you a spoiled child okay saying you assume this it was never my intent even though he wrote it great I was trying to explain the spirit of apostasy so I will try to do so differently because I care a lot for you and your family and for others reading this post was kind of grandstanding and by the way if he cared about you and your family he probably wouldn't be acting this way because I don't think this is the way to get you guys feeling good again no I don't know no no no I mean I haven't met your husband and I don't think he's loving this exchange so he writes when we seek answers or truth one of two things happened if we are humble we receive it rejoicing so he's calling you what prideful arrogant whatever okay he continues it feels us he means fills us it feels us with light and joy however when we reject it because it goes against traditions the world or what we want to believe or just want we begin to rationalize and justify what we want to believe pause what did you want what did you want to believe that you were then justifying your disbelief so that you could justify the thing you what was he but he's claiming that there's something you wanted to believe what did was it beer was it like did you want like no cigarettes like poor like what was it that you wanted Hey that made you have to invent this stuff to justify something I know like there was nothing I didn't know there's got to be something it can't just be that there's legitimate problems okay when we then seek to justify just well we then seek the justification from others we take our issues public to seek others who agree with us we start with family members and then friends social media has now given us each our own personal pulpit it's okay that he has his pulpit but you can't have yours the challenge is the positive response seems to confirm our rationalization and it feeds our pride were you seeking validation when you made that post were you just trying to get other people to agree with you no what are you doing I just wanted to share my thoughts and feelings yeah in the formal question yes which is like a basic human need right right it's like freedom of speech like YouTube of expression we all have it he's got it I'm sure he burns his testimony on his website right yeah there are many examples of this in the Book of Mormon we become more hardened in our views our hearts hardened and we reject the truth but we keep being reminded of the truth it is like being prodded with a sharp stick yeah it does feel like that we become angry and intentionally and maybe even unintentionally at first lash out against those who believe differently than we want to believe in the worst case the person then tries to take as many with them as possible so now you're just trying to take people right out right right you're intentionally trying to take people out I do not know where you are at in this cycle because he didn't actually reach out to you and say where are you let's me privately tell me where you are so he's telling you publicly he doesn't know where you are I don't know where you are at in this cycle but you seem to have taken steps down this path I care enough to call your attention to it and if you are not headed this way I am overjoyed I would never do this publicly and especially on Facebook okay what wait yeah I would never do this publicly it especially on Facebook but I'm so much scripturally bound to do so for behold Jesus said to his apostles thou shall rebuke the members of thine Lord through Facebook he's bound that was of the doctor covets I missed that but he has scripturally bound to do so because your views have been made public others who are struggling who are facing challenges can be caught up in the innocence of the questions being raised just like they have been with the sights you have sent me two questions are wonderful if we truly seek the truth that answers as I've said in the past I do admire your willingness to raise questions however questions raised to cause others doubt again why are you raising questions he's saying you're raising questions to cause others doubt to doubt their own faith or questions raised to gather others to our cause can be incredibly harmful only you know where you are at that's true right I never intended to insult you but I did want to give you and others key insights I mean he's grandstanding this is for in his mind he's saving the Internet it's like have you seen that image of like the person who's up at midnight and the spouse is like why don't you come to bed and the person writes because someone's wrong on the internet it's like he's either worried about his own Wardens take his own testimony or he's thinking that he's somehow standing up as a missionary for truth to the world I don't know great however questions raised to cause others to doubt their own faith or questions raised together others to our cause can be incredibly harmful only you know where you're at I never intended to insult you but I did want to give you and others key insights or ways to consider these issues and let you know how others feel who do here for you there is a line I must guard and that's how he ends is that his final comment um it's the final one in our that we've listed anyway hey I think that was its final comment and this is like the whole watchman on the tower it's this metaphor the Boyd Kate Packer used to use that like church leaders are watchman on the tower which is a war metaphor which means they have arrows or guns and you have to shoot anyone that you think is going to eat your wolves basically right it's a very violent metaphor yes to me agreed the line I must guard again it's a war or a police kind of mentality it's not you're the lost sheep no I have to go after the lost sheep of the 99 leave the ninety wine to go after the one he was protecting them from me yeah by sacrificing you publicly yes and it's not like charity and love unfeigned than like go the extra mile compassion kindness right it's tough love so you do have a final response you give to him which is what let me pull it up here um do you know I actually had to add two more response that's why for that yeah okay let me find this one where did it go oh boy well then back to one of his points was with people who may have their questions of their owns that I am trying to like pull them away I'm like no we can all have questions I'm not trying to pull anybody down with me into this darkness right I am like people can think for themselves right um sorry I'm still trying to find my comment okay I wrote oh dear Bishop love to your first comment from last night the conversations we had were private if you have taken those conversations and shared them with everybody reading this my initial post was merely sharing some feelings about how I felt oh wait did I read this one it's okay I mean you could read it either way if it expresses how you feel and what you think my initial post was merely sharing some feelings about how I felt on wanting to hear from more women in the church you have now shared my personal questions and paths with all those who know me how unfair for you to do and those conversations were again private not me publicly telling everyone my struggles and questions for the past few years I don't see my post as an attack on anybody or their beliefs my purpose was to share how I felt is it so wrong to have another perspective within the church and I have read a lot of info from the LDS sites I have read the church essays I have read the books from Deseret book I have listened to the podcast from faithful members I have tried to go to the original source and as many instances as I can I have read pages and pages from the Joseph Smith papers his own journals and documents from that time so bleah please don't tell me that I have completely dismissed those I will no longer be told how I should think about those things I will use my mind and decide for myself beautiful you did not read that that's okay I'm like I don't know if I thought that went in there and then I think my last comment was I feel like you were telling everyone that I have the spirit of apostasy and I'm trying to take as many people down with me not at all I was merely sharing my thoughts and feelings on wanting women to be viewed as equals because I do not feel that and thank you for making sure everybody knows that they should discredit me and my thoughts because I have the spirit of apostasy thank you for sharing with all my friends family and neighbors yeah yeah okay so what do you do with that how do you like I would be sick I would it was really hard and then I mean his comments were really hurtful and I just could like the shaming I felt like he was trying to publicly shame me and just credit me and label me unfairly I mean I just yeah it's hard yeah and then to have people in our word comment and say they support and sustain him in his comments was also incredibly painful right like how can you support that's like bullying this abuse but to me feels like it because not to like downplay abuse of others but for me this felt abusive this is cyberbullying this is verbal abuse emotional abuse this is gaslighting this is this is abusive in every possible way and that should matter to church leaders to stake president to General Authorities to administrators at church headquarters this is unacceptable and this person should be punished and they should be apologising yeah it felt so unfair for him to do this and change a portion of my life in my relationships and he just moves on and I'm stuck dealing with these feelings and repercussions from his comments and posts and it felt unfair and it I hated that it hurt me so much but it did and it put me into this weird like depression for a little bit and I didn't know how to start healing from this mm-hmm I so that's when I reached out to this stake president to talk with him and tell us how that went how'd you reach out I emailed him and he said oh I'm so sorry I didn't give him any details I just said hey I'd like to talk I felt like Bishop love did some inappropriate things and I or comment or said some inappropriate things I'd like to meet with you and he said great let's meet next week let me know when is good so I responded and said kay this we're open let me know nothing and then I think I emailed him like seven more times and then I'm like okay maybe I need to go through the Secretary so he contacted him and he's like yeah the stig president will be in contact with you to schedule a meeting nothing so how long has it been since you first contacted your stake president um since this post so a month or so a little over a month so it's been got a month almost a month and a half you've tried seven times to get an audience with your stake president and he has yet to meet with you right the bishop has yet to take the comments down and he has and and he has yet to apologize to you stake president hasn't you know emailed you hasn't called you has an S to me with nothing complete silence what do you make of that I don't know I I first was like maybe making excuses for the stake president about why he wasn't responding but now I'm like no there are no excuses he's avoiding or is trying to just brush it under the rug I don't know I don't know yeah so I mean I'm so angry like one of the things we always talk about is like do we name the people involved and generally the policy is not to its hey this isn't about embarrassing people this isn't about shaming people I don't believe in being in public shaming and I think we're all victims of a system that that harms us you know and and there's and this is an aberration most bishops would never do this I hope not but some do and but but the system should be working you you appeal to stake president they should care and you should need to come on Mormon stories to get someone to act it's like the church relies on its apostates or its dissidents to force them to make changes you don't get the church changing its policies with children by revelation you get Sam Young complaining the mass communicates Sam Young then they change the church's policies on children right it's it's this weird twisted where the church doesn't this patriarchy let's just call it what it is this boy's club doesn't care about women and children sometimes unless they're publicly forced and shamed to do so and it's a huge problem and I I can only hope that they will make changes yeah so where does that leave you now I don't know I think I'm just now trying to still um work through all my feelings from the Facebook post and from the stake president of waiting or ignore I don't know from the silence but it's hard and it's painful and it feels very unfair yeah what how would you preferred let's just say let's just say that that this is going to get raised with Salt Lake let's just say that someone in Salt Lake is going to notice or some listeners going to notify number one is there any how can we point people to your stake president in a way that isn't shaming or violating their privacy or daxing them do you want to say the name of your stake is that would that would you rather not do you want to invite people to reach out to you privately and then you can give them that information like how do we number one get the stake president to duty should do I don't know I don't know if I feel super comfortable sharing his name okay or maybe necessarily the stake so how about if people want to reach out to me privately for you sorry and you can tell us what good intents you have to do with that information we don't want to ducks anybody we don't want to make this public but if you feel like you're in a position to make a difference reach out to us we'll give you the information you need to be able to get the stake president to do it right here is that how you'd like to handle it yeah okay but then how would you like to be treated how should a bishop handle this situation um first of all not comment on Facebook I think if he had felt so inclined or scripturally bound to meet with me or talk or share his beliefs then contact me email me like he could have emailed me he could have called me he could have texted me he could have came to my house there were so many ways that he could have express those things to me not publicly in front of all my friends and family now what if the bishop was thinking man I spent so much time with her I mean clearly he was thinking that man I spent so much time with her it's not gonna do any good to spend more time so what if what if a bishop says I've done all I can didn't leave it alone yeah I think so I mean if he doesn't feel like he wants to commit any more time then I don't I just don't think violating our confidentiality on Facebook is appropriate way or to shame me or bully me that's never there right way so is there anything the bishop could do to persuade you to come back to church do you think at this point or to get or to help you believe again do you think your testimony is salvageable from his perspective what no no so how should a bishop or state president treat a spouse of a believing member who no longer believes with respect which would mean was how would they talk about your journey your faith journey I think first of all not the shaming and not um I just feel like so often it's like oh she was offended she wanted to sin she didn't do the right things like no like you can admit that there I mean I don't know if there would ever be an admittance well kind of half admittance um yeah you can say you know what these faith issues are hard and we know a lot of people are struggling with them and and it's common and we may not have all the right answers and I may believe different than you but but you know we sure respect we know this is a journey of integrity we know this is a journey of honesty we know this takes courage we know that the implications for you are super-severe we know this is really hard we know this is painful we know that this is harder on you than anybody and so we just want to say we love you we understand we care about you we're here to support you yes and how would that be that would be great do they need to agree with you and say yep Joseph was this or that right no they just need to say yeah we get it and we're sorry yeah that it's so hard yeah that would feel super comforting and we respect you that you would you did your best and it's you know and who knows what's going on and we have to trust the loving Heavenly Father's gonna work all this out right yeah okay and then and then what about free speech and free expression and and a non believing person's right to ask questions or express things how like let's say the church on the one hand worries about the tender testimonies of their members mm-hmm and so they what if it's a reality that sometimes what you express could cause others to ask the same questions or even have doubts given that the church doesn't want the virus of disbelief to spread how should the church handle people's public expressions of doubt or questions or concerns hey I don't think they should have any involvement in it that's my I mean it's my personal questions my personal beliefs like yes it will affect possibly affect others or the church I just don't think they should get involved in people's personal lives but what if what if other people have questions because of you then they should go on their own journey and find their own answers like it's oh yeah I just feel like I am able like my husband and I he is still believing we are able to have discussions and I can talk openly and share all my questions and share all my anti I believe sir literature and he we can have like an open discussion and he's he still has his beliefs like just because we believe differently like doesn't mean I don't know it won't affect his testimony necessarily like I think people need to be able to have an open discussion and not be afraid of information or questions or people I had amazing professor BYU say once that testimonies aren't silt bubbles they shouldn't be treated as soap bubbles that have to be protected in the hand like so they're gonna pop he said testimony should be like jackhammers and he said the only way that happens is when we can openly confront and talk about and face difficult things yes and the church is still acting like everyone's testimonies is still bubble that they have to protect and in some ways it's keeping people immature right right agreed like what they need to do is be open and honest with everybody get all the things out in the open and have come up with good answers she's ready or admit that there are problems which they're trying to do yeah but I mean honestly if the church were to like train and educate all its bishops I can't like if I if I were to interview every former bishop that's come to me on Mormons stories I would do an interview a day that's how many bishops have come to or are coming to me now many of them are still bishops well there are bishops right now writing me saying I'm I'm mistake president I'm a bishop I don't believe any more help and we've interviewed so many former bishops and stake presidents admission presidents like the churches the church is in a rough spot because if it trains its bishops it infects its bishops with the virus of disbelief and so bishops are going untrained Oh would it suck to have their job yeah because I don't know the answer for them I don't know but you don't care you just want them to be kind to you right pretty much that's where I'm at alright so well and what about the crazy reality like with Lea and Brinley young and Kody young you could be actually medicated just for talking about this publicly like were you worried about that yeah yeah it's a concern it's something that's been on my mind I guess it feels worth it for me to speak my mind and share my thoughts and that I feel like this is wrong it needs to be said and if the consequence is excommunication then that's what it is I mean because your your comments on face were benign now you're actually literally I mean what we're doing is we're we're not trying to speak evil the Lord's anointed that's not the intent the intent is to tell your story which is factual and secondarily to get these leaders to treat you kindly and justly which is not evil but it can be interpreted as criticizing the Brethren and of course down they chokes is on record is saying it's wrong to criticize church leaders even if the criticism is accurate which is troubling great but aside from all that I know my intent and some will believe me some won't I just want the church to stop hurting people so podcasts like this lead to change and my hope is that the church will change its training for bishops so that they don't do this again and so that they know how to kindly and lovingly respect people who lose their faith yes I think that would be great I love that I would just have to ask a mixed faith marriage is hard it's famously hard most of my coaching is mixed marriages what what how does this help an already difficult situation between maybe it strengthens your relationship with your husband I mean I'm I'm touched that he would have your back so has this made it harder this do you want to talk about like how what the stakes are and it makes faith marriage and why this is really important that the leaders get this kind of stuff right right yeah I think had Nathan my husband not having my back I mean yeah imagine it imagine if you took that temple covenant seriously or interpreted it in a way to where he can never speak ill of the Lord's anointed which means he has to support the bishop over you what would that have done I can't imagine I can't imagine it I think it would have probably destroyed us I need someone there that can support me and that has my back and so if he didn't feel that way then I don't know where we would be yeah so like the stakes are super high this isn't just like we're not goofing around here right you have three kids it's a marriage it's a family and if your husband hadn't have had your back which not all do it could have destroyed your it could have destroyed your family I am super grateful that he has tried his best to support me and love me I mean he's always loved me but he's always trying to have his support through my journey and he wants me to have my own path and do it my way what works for me and that's so lovely that's so lovely you're lucky yes I am I'm lucky you're super lucky Jenny writes I want I want to be best friends with Tonya that's what Jamie works Victoria writes Tonya is so brave people are really touched by your your poise your graciousness and your willingness to share yeah well I appreciate it because this what if this leads to change right so it takes courage how do you want to kind of wrap up what else do you want to say what else do you want to express I guess I my final thoughts would be I hope that the church changes I hope it has positive changes and it will stop hurting people and I don't know what all those answers are but I I can only hope I mean that there will be good in the future yeah and and some will say did you have to go read all the Bishop's comments I'm gonna say this not all bishops right those types of things on people's public Facebook profiles and in fact very few do tens of thousands of bishops and state presidents think and feel those things your Bishop expressed because they are not trained and they don't know better and so even though we're gonna acknowledge that you got a really bad apple in terms of social media behavior I bet he's right in the medium or the median or mode or mean of what most bishops think right about people who have doubts yep so that's that's probably even more important than a social media policy is how can the church help bishops actually empathize with and understand those who go through a faith crisis yeah instead of objectify belittle and demean them for what they've been through yes I think that would be great huge shout-out to Nathan somebody else writes Allie writes hugs to Nathan yes Nathan says hugs back he's here in studio somebody just reserves this road I missed what the bishop said could anyone [Laughter] well we may be sure the text I don't know but all right anything else tiny you want to share are you doing okay as your family doing okay you're gonna make it through this yeah of course we'll make it through it I mean it's hard and it's rough but we'll just keep pressing on okay well we wish you the best and we we we thank you so much for your courage because unfortunately this is the only way change happens in the church it's when people make a big ruckus I hope there is change yeah well thank you for your part and Winky will keep beating the drum great anything else that's it all right well it's been lovely to have you come back again well thanks to all our listeners today for joining us this has not been fun I I laugh I joke this is deeply disturbing painful stuff and it's just how I deal with it again our our heart is not to shame or demean the bishop or the stake president but the stake president has had seven chances to fix this and he's ignored everyone the bishops had over a month and so we're just trying to make this change happen not just so that Tony akin Tanya can get support and an apology and you know be treated expect respectfully but also so the church can learn from this and if any of you have stories there are so many people who sent in stories I don't think we have time to go over those today so we're gonna save it for another episode if you have been treated or mistreated by a bishop or state president in a really egregious way let's have you on as well we'll read some of these other stories that have been shared and we will we'll beat this drum until the church miraculously receives a revelation that they are to change how they deal with this sort of stuff and we'll keep plugging but ultimately our heart is honestly to have the church be better and treat its members better to treat its former members better and to have us all be kinder to kind of more christ-like to each other right that's our heart even though we're a little bit sharp elbowed about it thanks to everyone who tuned in today thanks to everyone who supports Mormon stories podcast if you didn't donate we couldn't do this so thanks for your support you can you can donate at Mormon stories org ten fifty hundred bucks month whatever we can afford five bucks a month all of it goes to a publicly transparent nonprofit that is dedicated to supporting people in transition and our finances are transparent and we use all the money to help with the mission of the organization so take care everyone reach out to me in warmer stories at gmail.com if you want to email us with other issues or questions or ideas if you have feedback if you want to help us help the stake president the bishop do the right thing reach out and we'll see you guys soon again for another episode of Mormon stories shout out to Kody Layton in studio for helping us with the production and post-production and a shout out to Nathan for his awesomeness in supporting tanja take everybody see you soon you

Channel: Mormon Stories Podcast

Views: 61,715

Keywords: lds, mormon, latter-day saints, faith, doubt, transitions, bishop, shame, shaming, facebook, social media, post, posting, priesthood, women, relief society, woman, equality, inequality, rant

Id: 9awA18rDiGk

Length: 105min 37sec (6337 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 17 2019