Mormon Stories #1321: The Excommunication of Bishop Sam Pinson and his Family in Ammon, Idaho Pt. 1

hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I'm your host John Dolan it is June 3rd 2020 and we have a special edition of Mormon stories podcast for you today sadly happily I don't know exactly how to describe it we are here to showcase yet another Mormon family who has been excommunicated for the Mormon Church the the guests that we have on today are Sam and Sarah Pinson hi Sam and Sarah welcome yeah you for having us and we also have two of their children we have Olivia and Sam jr. Pinson welcome guys and some may take issue with the fact that I'm actually using the word excommunication because as we've covered our Mormon stories podcast you know in the past six months or so the LDS Church of the Mormon Church made a new announcement that they were going to stop calling these disciplinary councils excommunications and instead they were going to call them removal of membership meetings or something to that effect and so but you know if it looks like a duck and it smells like a duck it's probably a duck I I personally am taking these announcements as euphemisms in other words the church is just trying to use flowery positive names to describe something that really hasn't changed and what happened was a few days ago Sam Pinson was excommunicated from the Mormon Church in Amman Idaho which is near Idaho Falls and it was for as I understand it just just some posts on Facebook that talk about the factual history of the church and some of the problems with the Mormon Church so it was for apostasy it was for just open and free expression of opinions or concerns or feelings or problematic history and you know it's it's it's a tragedy whenever the Mormon Church excommunicates people I've been excommunicated many my dear friends have as well for apostasy and this is extra interesting because Sam sir served as a bishop in Amman I do for Eman Idaho for four and a half years up to up into his recently as 2018 so two years ago Sam was Bishop of his am and Idaho Ward and fast forward two years and he and his family I'll say his family because when you actually communicate a parent you usually excommunicate the whole family that's how it works out so don't get me wrong only only Sam had the Disciplinary Council and only his membership wreckers were removed but but really in effect they've actually indicated the whole family and we'll be talking about that today as well so that's what we're here to talk about we've got four members of this wonderful family they woke up super early this morning in Idaho Falls and drove here to Salt Lake City Utah and we're just really thrilled Sam and Sarah to have you guys on Mormon stories podcast welcome thank you for having us well it's not the most fun sort of conditions but we really appreciate your courage and your willingness to share your stories because you know as we've always believed on Mercer's podcast sunshine is the best disinfectant and the church is trying to make progress in this area but clearly they have a ways to go so thanks for being willing to stand up and tell your story thank you these stories are very helpful and I also just want to thank Sam jr. and Olivia as well it's really awesome that you guys are here because the youth voice is really important thank you okay so Sam and Sarah let's begin you guys let's start where we always kind of start which is with your kind of Mormon background this is kind of the Mormon cred portion of the interview but let's just talk about both of your Mormon upbringing sand and Sam let's go and start with you okay I I grew up in the church my parents were both active and they taught me the gospel I went to primary where were you were we raised I was born in Oklahoma but moved to Southern California when I was about four so Southern California Orange County grew up the San Fernando Valley okay Granada Hills okay so I attended how many siblings oh sorry a little bit more about me oh yeah yeah yeah so they're eight kids in the family my goodness big family okay third oldest and we all we were all in as a family together went to every sacrament meeting didn't think of General Conference as a weekend off attended in the steak center wearing our Sunday clothing wore Sunday clothing all day on Sundays I believed I was I don't remember a moment when yesterday I didn't believe and then the next day I did believe it was the the the growing light growing and certainty that kind of experience for me was your mom estate home oh yes and what was your dad's profession software developer oh yeah with software we would know or quite a bit of it was he was self-employed and so as proprietary stuff just for his clients and he worked for IBM for a while Global Services okay my father was a seminary teacher that was kind of early morning seminary teacher that was kind of his lifelong calling in church I don't want to say the wrong number but I think it was at least 25 years Oh early morning seminary and I so I had my father as my seminary teacher I loved that experience was a Bruce mcConkie kind of Mormon I think so we have Mormon doctrine on the shelf and and in my experience since then people have told me that I take things too literally and have adopted a black and white view that's not appropriate I guess that label applies to me as well I graduated from seminary and before I was old enough to serve a mission I kept on going to seminary because my dad was the teacher so I guess I could do that because I loved it so much I thought I memorized all the scripture mastery Scriptures scripture chase were you yes that I loved that I had a church teacher leader challenged me at one point to memorize the Sermon on the Mount like he was gonna memorize it I was gonna memorize it when we'd see who could do it or who could do it first and I did it I memorized the Sermon on the Mount and then I thought well why stop there and I actually at one point I can't do it now but at one point I had Matthew chapter 1 through like 12 memorized I could quote I loved the scriptures I found in them certainty all the answers for anything that I needed to find answers for in my life a story that I thought of in thinking about what to share with my my story here was I took an alternate route educationally I went to junior college as a teenager and I was one day waiting for a class to begin it was a warm sunny day in Southern California there was an outdoor pavilion next to where my classroom was in the window was open there was a class still going on and I was waiting for the class to start and I could hear the teacher was a philosophy class inside he said something like if God spoke to Moses and told us about the creation of the earth and all this stuff that we have in the scriptures why doesn't God speak to man on earth today and all the my Mormon spidey-sense I kicked off and I knew that I was there in that place at that moment to answer his question so I stuck my head into the window and i testified there is a prophet on the earth today and his name is Gordon B Hinckley and God does speak to him and the whole class turned around and anyway I I withdrew but that that's just an example of how Pat that I was about my testimony and about the church was it like to grow up a Mormon in a California high school I we're definitely in the minority but there was in my ward and in my stake there were great kids there were a lot of youth and I that's where I found a lot of my my friends and I loved it stake dances news conferences usable truth is sample trips that's where I found my friends and enjoyed it very much did you ever have any did you ever sort of have any moments of doubt as a teenager where you weren't sure the church is true or did you have those moments where you wanted to get your own testimony Mirandized promise so you'd read The Book of Mormon and pray to know it's true any of that so I definitely did have experiences where you attend a Sunday School lesson and talk about getting your own testimony not relying on your parents faith Maroni's promise and I did all of that I did not like no I didn't doubt you know I don't remember in my youth any periods of doubt it was just knowing it better and and more firmly and so yeah yes so I did have spiritual experiences where I had warm feelings about what I was asking and I felt like I had answers to my prayers and that I knew that it was true did you have there are a lot of Mormon teens who hear messages around sexuality and have a lot of guilt and shame bishops visits or internalized kind of shame around matters of sexuality was any of that part of your experience absolutely yeah I the church culture and in my home was a very sex negative environment and so as my sexuality developed it was an extremely shameful and guilt ridden part of my life it was crippling at times and I I did my best suppress any kind of sexual feeling and and to repent there were lots of Tears and maybe even bordering on depression that I couldn't fix this within myself that the natural man was to me so apparent in me absolutely I think the guilt was very strong in my life did you have any moments where you were sort of falling away or like being a rebellious kid even though you believe did you have any moments of kind of rebellion I don't think so well I wasn't a perfect child or anything but I did with I had some friends where I would sneak out of the house without asking for permission so I was I was breaking the rules but what we did was for example we would go and deliver cookies or something a rebellious teenager how was your mission good I served in the Russia Rostov nada new mission I when I was young that wasn't an option right the Cold War was still on missionaries were not allowed into the country and I remember teachers asking oh you want to go on a mission right yes where do you want to go and I always said Russia and when I had submitted my papers we put a map up on the wall and anybody who came over to the house invited them to put a pin in it where they thought I was going and I guessed Moscow whoa didn't get called to Moscow but that was an additional like it felt good and confirming that I'm being blessed with the desires of my heart right I wanted to serve the Lord I wanted to serve in Russia and here I'm being called to Russia so I served as hard as I could two years I gave it my my best I followed the rules I was not I didn't slack off I didn't break the rules I love the Russian people certainly there's hard times on the mission as every missionary knows do you have to be a deal or zeal or an AP or any of that stuff zone leader and mission secretary oh nice you're in the office I was ok and answering the phone in Russian when you don't have the body language yeah that was a challenge so did you finish your mission with the full intact testimony yes okay yeah and then takes to the point just quickly where you met Sara so we returned from my mission and that was in 2000 summer of 2000 and then started at BYU that fall and we were in the same Ward together so that's where we met that was so I would have been in September when the semester started around that September yeah and our first date was in October and we can heal it all during the dorms no I lived in the Glenwood and he lived with his sister president Grove so I mean initially you went to like a singles word there or just your sister's word yeah it was the yeah not super important detail but you just realized there were no young single girls he ended up in my ward kind of by chance and okay cool so Sara let's hear your story too let's hear your Mormo story okay well I on my mom's side of the family we've got pioneer stock way back you know you get those emails from family search that are like your ancestors birthday is today or whatever I got an email saying that my ancestor was in the history of the church and when I went to look at I think Silvanus Hewlett or something like that he I guess his claim to fame as being chastened by or chastised by Joseph Smith so that's another so that's my mom's side and on my dad's side he was a convert the church I don't know if you want me to tell ya whatever would give us a sense for your yeah yeah so my dad he was working I think he was at Yellowstone he worked at Yellowstone quite a bit he's from Montana and he he was working and there was a guy reading a marvelous work and a wonder mmm Richard yeah and it was distracting him from his work and apparently my dad was tasked with go tell this guy to stop reading the book or take it from him or whatever so my dad took the book from him and flipped through it and got interested and started reading at himself and found something special in it and then a few months later he picked up some hitchhikers who he knew one of them he had known from the Congregational Church that he was a member of growing up and he said hey I was I recently became a Mormon and so he said we'll send the missionaries to me and he met the missionaries and they played golf together and eventually got baptized and so he ended up going to BYU so I think he was 18 when he joined the church so point to BYU I met my mom and yeah so he was a convert always loved the church I would say our family was traditional in that we attended church every week we had family scripture time but I I think my father was pretty nuanced he read a lot of Hubie Brown so and he just read a lot he was very well-read he would read books about Taoism he would read no physics he would read any topic he was very just interested in learning um so so yeah traditional but I would say nuanced and a lot more flexible than for instance Sam's family when we married I just noticed differences and how he's how we saw things so did you already tell me what city you guys you were so I was born in Fort Wayne Indiana okay and then we doing Indiana what were your parents doing in so my dad actually was a seminary teacher like his work he he did that in Utah and when we lived in Indiana he worked with the Institute programs and so he's the CES employee yes for how many years forever okay I mean tell he had to retire he got cancer and had to retired and he passed away in 2009 okay so he was in Fort Wayne doing Institute okay yeah and then we moved to a man Idaho when I was 10 mm-hmm and well it was the seminarians - teacher he he was a principal of a high school seminary yeah yeah okay actually the one that I got my children now attend so we're kind of back where we started how big is a man I do 60,000 Oh where's that Idaho Falls I don't know Emmons just an appendage ton Idaho I'm not sure okay so what was your upbringing like was it super Mormon yeah it was super Mormon how many siblings there's seven of us one child passed away okay I was I grew up with seven yeah I mean we we did all the things Mormons do my dad loved the scriptures and so our scripture time was very much we would all take turns reading but he would then elaborate on the scriptures or teach us you know because he was a seminary teacher that's what he loved it did too so trying a theme so like scripture study family being family prayer all that stuff yeah I I don't remember a ton of family home evening when was that that became a thing like an 80s yeah maybe you're not that old so yeah but I think that I'm towards the youngest and so maybe my parents were just kind of like busy yeah most people almost everybody is sure and I think they had raised most of their but how was your like your testimony growing up my testimony was great yeah I loved primary I loved young woman's ever favorite primary song I love to ask people that yes I I don't know the title title it's I like to look for rainbows yeah just beautiful when I am baptized I think it's what it's called mm-hmm beautiful so yeah I left primary loved young women's I loved girls camp that was like your jam that was my jam totally just ate everything up at girls camp and I I was very much I guess a leader in so far that I tried to take people under my wing tried to like be inclusive with all the young women and just was always trying to look out for people who might not feel like they fit in and so that was important to me did you have dreams or goals as a team Mormon teen girl I never wanted to be a mom like I didn't think of it I guess I wasn't that forward-thinking um I didn't really have dreams and goals I was just like hmm I'm kind of a take it a day at a time kind of person I guess I don't know so I didn't really think too far ahead but when I did apply for college I only applied to BYU like I just knew that's right way to go what about and I mean they're like a joint application okay so yeah I did WI use yes do I use right okay um so and and I would say that as a teenager I was probably a little more orthodox than my parents like it would take well your dad was he yes like I said he was he was pretty and I was he kind of liberal a little bit yeah and he would so like how are you how are you feeling like your parents were not quite as intuitive you I I guess what I mean is that I would take things seriously that I was taught in seminary or Sunday school and when I was strict with myself it wasn't because my parents taught me that way I guess is what I mean it's that it came from me for instance like I went to a movie with friends we went and saw the Titanic when it was it was big nudity scene immediately fell you know it's darkness and I should leave and I thought it's a spirit telling me to leave so I left and call my mom to come get me and things started getting shaky with those friends after that I think they thought I was a prude and I was and so I guess things like that where I was very like to the letter I'm not gonna view that kind of stuff I'm not gonna um and I don't know if they wanted to skip Church while traveling or something it bothered me I would think we're not supposed to do that you know and things like that you're their little mute fire probably annoying yeah were you both Nephi's were unified too I don't think I have read like right my parents they were believers so it was I was following their lead their good lead okay okay and I do remember having a few moments of doubt I had two of my best friends at the end of high school were not LDS one was Catholic and one was I'm just non-denominational Christian amazing girls like just wise beyond their years really compassionate kind people and they didn't have the gospel and they didn't seem to need it they seemed fine without that caused a lot of cognitive dissonance for sure and I remember thinking about it a lot and thing what does Mormonism have that makes it necessary you know if my friends can be really good without it and even better than me I felt like you know they live their values even better than I do what what's so special about Mormonism in it and I thought about that for months and I think that I eventually kind of resolved it in my head with thinking about like patriarchal blessing the priesthood you know there's some things that are unique about Mormonism that I thought well I I feel like my patriarchal blessing is really special to me and meaningful so so it must be true you know the whole thing must be true and that can help to resolve it at that point there's always the light of Christ and the gift to little egos I was sure there's quotes from Hinckley like we everyone has good we invite all good you know and so I'm sure there are some of that too so there was a place for good people in the world who word Mormon you just had to work hard to get okay so so you any other issues with your childhood before you kind of go to BYU anything else you want to share about your upbringing your background um I guess something else I didn't want to bring up is the whole missionary work thing at all ways I was you know it was it was hard for me and I always thought it was because I was shy or I wasn't converted enough or I didn't love the gospel enough to want to share it but like I mentioned with these two friends that were LDS I always you know there'd be a talk in church about missionary work and I'd feel that oh I'm just guilt and my god I should be telling his friends about the gospel but I never wanted to it just didn't sit right with who I am and but again I thought it was my problem I thought it was me not being righteous enough so I think I eventually did give them a Book of Mormon but I like hated I hated the entire experience it was it just looking back now I can see how wrong it felt I didn't feel right doing it but I felt like I was supposed to that makes sense I think that'll kind of be important later okay no story so anything else anything else about your your story Sam before we talk about your marriage but your upbringing any important aspects of your brain you got it got the main things well I don't know if this is relevant for later but there I think like any buddy's childhood experience there were some things about growing up that were unpleasant at home particularly maybe in a McConkey Mormon home where there was a very well-developed sense of right and wrong and being wrong or sinning or breaking the rules brought strict and severe punishment and so I resented that and simultaneously perhaps that influenced my worldview that black and white like there's no gray things are right or they're wrong and never the twain shall I can see where this is going to come in yeah okay and you had talked about like the church you know those happy commercials in the 80s and 90s like giving you hope that somebody you could have a happy family in the gospel that was something that I liked about the church it was all about having a happy family and I've looked forward to having my own happy family yeah okay so you guys meet each other anything you want to say about your dating or courtship or awesome it was a lot of fun I think in standard LDS go on a mission get married have kids style we followed the plan we met at the beginning of the semester we had our first date at the end of October and we were engaged in March of the next year well that's slow and then married and then married in August so you guys were slackers oh you're basically slackers I'm kidding yes sort of sort of less than a year from first eyesight to married yeah and that was my first semester BYU right we got married young quick and I didn't plan on getting married at all I think because it was the norm and I very much didn't want to be the norm my mom actually got me a bracelet that said anti commitment or something like that like as a joke like I was like I'm not gonna get married no not ever but not ended up being but by the end of your freshman year you were married yeah okay you know all right and what was your understanding as a couple as to what what role the church would play in your marriage and in your family I'm sorry our entire lives were centered around it and built on it every decision was informed by it I don't think so Sarah wasn't planning on getting married right away she also wasn't planning on having children right away and I didn't force that but I certainly influenced it and we started having children right away because the prophets taught that there are spirits waiting for physical bodies to come and it's not our place like it's it's a sin to deny them that opportunity that's where I was at that time and so we were both college students and starting our family in poverty adding immense stress to our lives voluntarily unhealthy stress I think kids in college yeah but the church was everything that was going to like we're holding hands together and holding the iron rod and that's going to be guiding our lives that's the commitment that we had yeah and I think the children thing was like our first clash or the first moment where I realized he has more of a strict idea of what it means to be a Mormon I guess because I wasn't planning on having children ready right away but then he would read me these quotes about you're not supposed to put off having children even for schooling and I was like I can't argue with the church like I you know I I want to do what's right I want to follow the church and so so we did start our family and yeah he didn't forced me but there was definitely an influence with the backing of the church when God's the one telling you to do something it that's hard so you're pregnant how many months into your marriage second month probably because we got married in August so the view was born in June yeah yeah it was pretty immediate okay all right that's pretty intense yeah and we love parenthood we love our children yep but that decision was not made independent of the influence of the church so how many kids do you have five five kids what was your understanding about kind of patriarchy and decision-making and you know power in in the relationship and was that at all a struggle or an issue early on or ever what I just described became a pattern right of us maybe disagreeing on something but he would always have the church on his side and so it wasn't that I felt like I had to give in because he was a man but it was that all the white men in the church were agreeing with him and so he was always right when it came to those decisions you know the times when my desire opinion disagreed with the church so so yeah I think that that was a running theme in our marriage for sure I know that up until recently I had a lot of in turn internalized sexism and I thought it was just the way was supposed to be in the it was right and as you progress in the marriage to that way on you did you just come to accept it and feel okay about it was it an ongoing burden or a problem did you have depression over that sort of stuff oh I I mean sounds like awesome from the beginning he's it's very much been a partnership like we had children in college and it was very much trading off he was very supportive of me finishing my degree like a lot of things were great but it was just every once in a while making a decision when I felt like I had to give in because he had the church on his side so it didn't really weigh heavy I will say the the temple weighed heavy the the temple covenants that he went through the temple do you want to talk about what that was like for you about that so the first time we went through we were getting married the next day so that was kind of lost in the marriage right but I and so I don't remember if the first time that bothered me but I know I know from the beginning it bothered me you know when the Covenant was to hearken to my husband work but he got to hearken to God I didn't understand so that you paid you noticed that I noticed oh absolutely I noticed it and I think I've always been pretty independent I don't know I never would have called myself a feminist but I I had like five brothers growing up I could beat the boys in races when I was a kid like I thought girls can do just as good as boys and anything you know that was kind of always how I felt and so I was like what I have talked to him and he's a great guy but he's not I have a relationship with God why don't I get to just harken to him I I have that personal relationship it didn't make any sense to me but I thought you know we're told just keep going we'll understand him someday so I very much put it aside and thought I'll just keep going back to the temple and and every time I would I would just puzzle it out and think try to fit you're out why how this could make sense but it never did you know we're talking atoms not punished but it felt like Eve was punished for being the first one to partake and I didn't understand that so I always bothered me and I remember once I brought it up to Sam I said I don't I don't like this part I remember that yeah and he actually started crying you want to tell your side of that story well just in general leading up to that so I had been taught the father presides not as a dictator but when it comes down to it there's any disagreement that's kind of what I had expected you want to be kind and loving and serving and everything but I think the Church's teachings did negatively impact my worldview of what a healthy relationship looked like in and I had been going to the temple as a mission it right before we got married and I think part of me looked forward to having a wife that would covenant like that's the beginning of our godhood together right and then when she told me she didn't like that apart from it personally hurting like you don't want to hearken to me like there's something flawed about me it was also my wife's not a believer fully she's not fully devoted to the church and so that was troubling yeah and I am I tend to be bluntly honest sometimes and so I don't know that I was able to express my internal turmoil I just said I don't want to hearken to you you know which that's tactful so so I can see why maybe his feelings were hurt and but yeah so so basically I share that you know feeling that I've had for a while and he starts crying never gonna bring up anything like that again right problem song so so yeah that kind of shut me down in that way like don't bring up things that I don't agree with or yeah okay so how so what do you want to tell us about kind of your you know marriage / career leading up it to the point where you guys started having one of you started having doubts I know that you eventually became Bishop so just talk us through kind of anything you want to leading up to the point where someone starts having doubts and/or you know you kind of you're live at you you must have been living the mormon dream in appearances because being chosen as a bishop is kind of on level one the the epitome of of the young Mormon experience and you and I'm assuming you're a bishop pretty young you should talk about the ascent to high status in the church so I was all-in I was very dedicated and I actually so we I returned from my mission 21 we get married at 23 I'm ordained a high priest and put into a high priest group leadership so right off the bat I'm being tab it's yah yah pretty young and and I gave it everything I had Sarah well you've made me want to tell it she was called to be young women's president when we've got a baby in our family words you have leadership positions right off the bat and the ascent oh so we finished her degrees I was studying computer science and graduated and maybe this will be relevant later I actually was admitted to BYU as a linguistics major and I've always had a passion for language yeah and that was before you me that was actually yeah I was admitted before my mission as a linguistics major when I they started I changed the computer science I graduated with my bachelor's she wasn't done with her bachelor's yet and I started a master's we both finished in computer science computer at BYU broken okay and then got a job at Microsoft what year did you leave you were you 2005 okay we move and and just because I like to think about timelines 2005 2004 is when I left Microsoft in 2005 is when I moved you know started Mormon stories so you're going to Microsoft at about the time I left Microsoft and started Mormon stories so I'm curious as you're telling the story I just want to hear if any of the stuff we started doing with blogs and with podcasts eventually the CES letter and other things I want to hear when those when or if because some people live so much in the Mormon bubble they just don't know about any of this stuff for forever well part that's a big deal to get at Microsoft right although it was great yeah life was what group did you join right group I was part of a team that did like photo the photo apps movie maker and when that was a thing a blogging thing yeah Windows Live Writer [Laughter] Sultan okay which is a little town on do you know where o is that's know how much County yeah yeah okay on your way to it's really gorgeous up there great people I love the people of silt in a lot of Mormons were there a lot of Microsoft employees I feel like for the population relatively speaking there were a lot like gold bar Sultan it was a massive geographic not massive like 40 minute drive Geographic there are quite a few in our immediate maybe yeah there were actually there were like six families probably okay and so you I mean Microsoft is an extremely demanding company yes tons of hours tons of commitment the the commuting is awful so the traffic is terrible so it's it's not it's a non-trivial thing to be a Mormon young family trying to succeed at Microsoft untrue I'm glad you said that I very much felt that way so I had been taught my whole life that the church comes first above everything and I tried to live that and so I felt at a disadvantage at Microsoft yeah the commute was terrible I was called to be an early morning seminary teacher it was I yeah and we were we were still having babies yeah that interrupted my sleep I really think that I suffered brain damage from the sleep deprivation I think it affected my ability to hold my train of thought and think cognitively which does not help when you're working at Microsoft right and so very that added a lot of stress I did not enjoy working at Microsoft overall they were good nice about it but overall I did not enjoy my experience and they had this ride just for anyone who cares about history they had this review process where you get a three or 3.5 or a four but the but the managers had to stack rank the anyone who worked for them and if you fell in that bottom quartile with the threes you'd get no stock options no bonuses no raises at least it was that way when I was there so he it was out you were in a team environment but at the same time the stars got heavily rewarded and the slackers or the people that were perceived or we're not as political to be perceived as performing got nothing and so it was kind of like you have to work in teams but its total dog-eat-dog and it was just a really cutthroat culture that made it even more stressful couldn't that's what I so and it was really stressful for me because he had early-morning seminary and then he would just come home to change and then you know drive that hour to work because we were about an hour from Redmond and then and then they expect a lot and so maybe ten hour days and then another hour home and I had young children and yeah i if there ever was any depression for me or just resentment or and then the church is gonna take more time and I never see my husband and that it would have been during that time for sure Margie had depression too yeah a lot of fights is really good I felt like I was guided by the spirit and my decisions and and the upward trajectory of my life confirmed all of that I'm prospering this I'm doing the right thing I felt like I should run for office local office and I ran for City Council and was elected Oh on top of all this yes counselor at that time - driving 40 minutes to the stake center for meetings and talking about like no sense and I think that what had been modeled for me was a good strong valiant Mormon man goes out and gets things done yeah and his wife enables that allows that to happen yeah and what's your reaction I want to hear it oh it's just funny hearing these things because it's like well it's not just problems with the Mormon Church it's also problems with society and I'll talk about my story later but action is what was your parents talk about what's stupid this idea that you're not loving that did you have to anything to add Sam jr. your parents talk about all this there's many things to think about certainly I actually didn't know the entirety of the story I guess if anything my reaction is definitely changing or not changing but building my perception of what future partnerships all have are going to be like this is definitely informing my future okay all right fun well your kids are hearing some of this for the first time yeah okay so you're running for office on top of everything yeah so life was out of control you're depressed possibly yeah I don't think I felt like it at the time but and I homeschooled the kids for good I actually I think that actually saved me because if I just been home without like a oh yes and a calling meaning something I can do every day to have meaning in my life I I think I would have wanted to get a job I think I would have been struggling even more so so I loved homeschooling the kids and I think that gave me purpose but it also burns you out it's pretty intense to be with your kids day in and day out and to be in charge of their curriculum and their learning and then not have your husband be around so yeah I'm yeah if I may interject something that I have actually been thinking of recently is I think probably in part because you mom were you know homeschooling us and I'm sure even as a child you can sense some tension between parents sometimes right I developed a very strong parental feeling of gratitude or a feeling of gratitude towards you guys as my parents and I think that that actually might have helped obviously this will we will get to this later I guess but um it did shape me into I think a miniature copy of what you described as her childhood in slightly different ways mmm that's important thanks for sharing the same Junior okay so so as I said I wasn't happy at Microsoft and I quit how many years a little over five years when you invested did your did you get stuck up since I got some stuff yeah five years is your bunch - yeah but it was it felt like the right thing to do and I felt like God was leading me and again yeah and I it was shortly after that that I was called to thy counsel so I took that as also continued confirmation on the right path yes and I quit Microsoft to start my own translation business so now I translate from Russian to English which was really a leap of faith I think he stopped as a software developer our development yeah that's such a bad taste in my mouth it was ready for a big change and I have always loved language so I thought give that a try and anyway that starting any business is extremely stressful businesses fail and so you take that with the church responsibilities and the City Council and we were stretched the wait was too much and we started having marriage problems like never before there been disagreements about this or that but it was real marriage problems now so how many years into the marriage was that about 10 10 years then Kyle Cole I think actually sure sure so just fighting well I think different expectations yeah as I said I felt like God was telling me to be on the city council and to do all of these things and Sarah wasn't happy with that arrangement she wanted more time more support yeah for sure and winning started the business he would go down to an office that we'd prepared for him and be down there at ten or twelve hours I think he you know you feel prompted to do something that God tells you to do but then you got to put in 110 live right like there's that idea that but I have to put in the work to make God's promises come true to fruition and so he would be down there for 10 or 12 hours and I was and but we weren't making any money yet he would be studying for the life like this translator certification or he would be trying to build up clients and so yeah it felt like better because he was home but worse because he was home and yeah I still didn't see him as much yeah serious financial stress I actually pulled out that's expensive 401k Oh I pulled out half of my 401k in order to have some liquid funds to see us through the transition and every month the balance her account was getting lower and lower so extreme stress on both of us and young children like it was the perfect storm and I think we were both very much in our own head of our own stress I was I wasn't getting support with raising the kids he was extremely stressed trying to start this business and and I wasn't very understanding of that so I still in this time I believe the church was true but I think just the emotional exhaustion the weight of it all began - I was feeling worn out I was not as zealous about what I had been zealous about before I still did everything I was supposed to do but I was less excited about it I felt like like I'm sacrificing to go home teaching my wife resents the fact that I'm already gone all the time and then the church I don't think she resented the church for it but that's I received like you're not supporting me in doing my home teaching and so I felt this conflict between what I wanted to do which was all out I'm in the church 100% and and it's not working for me it's harming my relationship it's harming my family that was the first time I think I began to have any kind of feeling like that yeah and I remember a talk in church in that ward where the leader said you know the men they want to go and be the hero like women let your husband be the hero like let him go do his home teaching let him go to his meetings and be the hero and so that message was being reinforced to me I need to be a better wife I need to be more supportive I need to not resent this I need to you know give my life like we're taught the church it seems like you're kind of packing it down like you're sort of like this seems like year-after-year of like I'm not getting what I want I'm not having a voice but the church continually keeps coming in and saying pack it down and support your husband and kind of be quiet and do your job yeah oh yeah and I'm still processing through it to some degree finding that my voice matters my emotions are valid that kind of thing definitely been a process for me okay so how's this so it eventually got better I think the financial stress was a huge part of it and I eventually built the business up and we started making money and when there wasn't like that financial gun to the head it allowed our relationship to begin healing I think yeah well that and I I remember when I I went to take dinner to a family which looking back I'm like dude girl to do that when you were struggling so much to be doing that but anyway I was taking dinner to a family and I just broke down sobbing in the car I didn't want to go home I think it was a probably the first time in my life I didn't want to be at my house and I was just praying and I said help me Father you have to do something you have to send somebody to me because I can't it was the first time I thought about divorce and that wasn't just not an option with how I was raised and being in the church and so I was like you got to send somebody to me and I had this warm feeling come over me and um just was told to go home it's gonna be okay in it I went home and then like not ten minutes later there was a knock on our door and it was somebody from our ward who is like he's a little rough around the edges kind of guy very like missionary obsessed zealous and he's the one who showed up and I was like seriously like holy father this is who you said to me this guy but he came in and he actually like was talking about marriage and he shared a few things that I don't know they just gave me enough hope to keep going and that to me was a turning point of I'm just gonna stick it out and keep trying and things got better it took a couple years so in 2013 we I was so I moved we moved to Washington to work for Microsoft I wasn't working for Microsoft anymore and so why aren't so diluted very expensive and it's grey sky rains all the time so I didn't want to do that anymore so we considered moving we started planning for that and Sarah's got family here in Idaho Falls so or not here but in I know Falls and so that's where we ended up she moved so we moved okay sold the house and moved and so now we're summer 2013 and I that hole that episode there in Washington was a very dark period a low point in my life that upward Mormon trajectory had stalled out and then reversed this was not part of my plan this wasn't supposed to happen as I said some of that zeal was gone and but when we moved I wanted to take that as a okay reset I'm gonna I'm gonna do my best to recommit to everything and I did in our new Ward I went out of my way to introduce myself and be my best church member self this is kind of homeboy at home girl returns home right you're you're returning to em and right well I am okay up to you returning them so you're going back to where you were from I yeah but so you're returning to her home yes triumphantly I didn't ever plan to move back to my hometown but we felt we were being guided right well my mom at the time was taking care of her parents and she had already taken care of my dad for until he passed and then her parents moved in with her and I it just you know felt right to be there be close yeah super yeah yeah that is true [Laughter] the housing market we lost a lot of money selling the house because it was a do we bought high we saw bone so cheaper but we lost a lot of my net worth is much lower now than it would be if we had stayed longer whatever so I got called the V young men's president very shortly after moving in and then three months later we get a call to come meet with the stake president I had just received a calling I thought surely this is a calling for Sarah we go in to meet with him and he asked me to be the Bishop of the m26 Board it was like an out-of-body explained all vision and then I'm watching this happen from the outside yeah you were shot totally not expecting he like a cold like are you serious I growing up I thought and was taught you're the future leaders of the churches were yes you are going to bear up the kingdom triumphantly and you shouldn't want a calling but you are going to do that and and so I I tried to have that ambitious humble ambition as much as possible and I think when I was a teenager there was a part of me that wanted to be bishop or at least thought it would be cool yeah like every other Mormon boy yes at the moment that was the last really I did not okay no and in fact like I I told you I started to lose my zeal I just wasn't excited as excited as my peak Mormon self and but my sense of duty all of that conditioning kicked in and I hi sir I accepted the call and I reek emitted I gave it everything I had and and so Bishop service began in Olivia that you know that can a wife can maybe experience that two different ways or multiple ways but one would be like oh this is validation that we're on the right track and that we're doing Mormonism right and the Lord wouldn't call my husband is such a special calling if we weren't all doing good things or it can cause a lot of stress and sadness like you know we don't have time for this it's young kids marriage isn't grade like how was it for you I think there was some of both we so we purchased an acre and we were looking forward to getting chickens and having a garden and it's a lot of work to take care of an acre and it was a wilderness when we bought it so it was going to be a lot of work and money so I was a little like oh well there goes those plans you know any extra time we might spend on that it's gonna be as him as a bishop now but but generally I was excited for him we were in a good place in our marriage at that point and I could sense that he was losing his zeal and so I remember thinking this is going to be a great opportunity of growth for him it's gonna be really good for him and and I kind of committed to I'm not gonna be resentful I'm gonna support him 100% I'm not gonna complain and and I think I was actually in a healthy enough place where I could do that and I think I did do that while you were Bishop hey I didn't resent it like I did previously and maybe it was because the kids were getting older and things were a little easier right - yeah yeah she was fantastically supportive okay and so you did the did the bishop thing let me just check in with the kids really quick so kids a move from Washington to to Idaho is a big switch and then having your dad call his bishop anything you guys want to share about either of those things yeah are you too young to notice oh no I was I think yeah I turned 11 right after we moved to Idaho and just in terms of the church and you know being 11 12 that's when you start to have all this pressure put on you to like get get a testimony you start to feel like you need to fit in with you know the youth around you and I think our Ward in Washington it was a lot of converts and it was a lot of people with very diverse like experiences and ideas um and when I moved here I definitely felt a shift in how the church felt it was just a different culture it felt more homogenous more closed-minded and so I think that definitely affected me I started to feel a pressure to fit in and to you know I mean it started to be that my community was slowly centered around the church because like all my friends were part of the church and so that definitely and you like that or didn't like that I both missed yeah it was okay for a little bit but I know it I really started to struggle because it my story is really interesting because unlike my parents who didn't really have any doubts I started to ask questions when I was probably 12 when I was Indian woman's and I would have these lessons about the temple or about these things and I had so many questions and I also had access to the internet a little bit more than my parents that I think and so I found things out about the church that I was like what and like what um some of it was historical stuff like just about Joseph Smith marrying young girls that I was like as a kid you don't really know how to conceptualize that but you you know voice in my head is like what like we're never taught about stuff like this so you're having these thoughts as a 12 you're yeah I'd say well I'd say I started to feel uncomfortable some things when I was 12 but it wasn't till I was probably 13 14 that I really found out more but yeah when I was 12 I think it was more just this sense of I didn't I didn't like church I stopped liking church and I when I was 13 I started to get really depressed because I had a lot of I think I was a little bit like Sam and that I felt like like I had to be perfect and I felt like I was never living up to these standards all around me and I felt like I couldn't ask questions I had and so that started very very early on and I think maybe thought I'd ho definitely affected that okay Sam you want to jump in - totally um well like every good faithful Mormon boy I was in awe of my dad first of all just as a son I think but definitely once he was made bishop I think that there was definitely that was definitely when my religious development started sort of around 11 and 12 again especially with the influence of dad Ben Bishop in particular I think there was that culture shift the Olivia mentioned with you know it going from converts mostly and kind of transitioning to homogenized sort of Mormonism there was most decidedly for me personally there was a huge shift in the the I don't know if there was this is the right way of putting it but there was a much lower level of zealousness and excitement and you know commitment not just throughout the ward itself but especially throughout my peer groups right and so when you're twelve and you're like you're gonna get the laying on of hands or you know you'll be given the priesthood you're basically given the power of God in some small way like holy crap that blew my mind and so you know I be I would be all in like that and Mom and then I would look around me and I'd see the other guys and girls my age but especially the guys you know who just didn't really care who were like they they believed it and they were converted to it but at the end of the day they weren't the ones doing fast offerings or doing all the different things that came with being a young man or having the priesthood and so right off the bat starting around you know when I first got the ironic priesthood I think that there was sort of that divergence that continued where I as a dedicated the bishops son right the the person in that sort of unique situation found myself being more and more involved and passionate about the church while everyone around me in the ward especially my peers really just you know it became more clear how much less committed they were than me and you know at the time it's sort of the humble ambition that you're brought up like okay you know we have to be sanctimoniously humble about our own situation but at the same time I was like yeah like people are telling me I could be the Bishop Sunday and you know there is that part of your brain that's like I want to serve the Lord I also want to be the best person I can be so that was absolutely a part of it so Sam junior if I'm understanding I can kind of relate to this I remember growing up in Texas as a Mormon but moving to Utah thinking that you know the Utah Mormons were gonna be doing Mormonism the best way but what I found was a lot of people because a lot of Utah Mormons or Idaho Mormons because they were growing up in it it was just like the water they were swimming in and they didn't take it as seriously they weren't quite as devout and you know there might have even been kids partying just secretly and privately just not taking all super seriously is that kind of how you found it to be yeah absolutely and I don't think again I had any like particular expectations in place to be disappointed but one thing that certainly played into that was again when I was had just turned 12 and I think I talked to both of you guys about this there were quite a few things happening including scrupulous atiim which I'm sure we'll get to but it was basically me as a 12 year old who was you know barely a newly ordained deacon and a bunch of 15 16 year olds and what I quickly realized was that young men's was more about playing basketball right or Church ball when that was the thing then actually caring at all about the church really within that war at least and in particular I definitely wasn't athletic as a 12 year old I like to think that's changed that's up for debate I guess but one thing that I definitely felt like was not only was it like no one else no other young men really care about the church at least not in the same way I do it was also kind of exclusionary because they were all super into basketball and good at it overall and there was 12 year old Sam tripping over his own feet you know probably the book Morgan in his hand so there were definitely many factors involved but sort of my general feeling around 12 was definitely yeah you know I for whatever reason and the only one who cares about this and the church meaning the church the church meaning you know the church and and particularly all the activities and responsibilities that come with like the priesthood right and I mean just think about like what that means or to me it meant holy crap I've been given a small piece of the power of God you know like I because I truly right I believe that this is the pathway to eternal happiness all these things like this is it like this is the way to live your life very simple you know makes sense you guys raised me well his father like son like grandfather like father like son exactly and so yeah III could not understand why you would have apathy towards the great the one true religion God's true church and another thing that was hugely important at this time for me was I I started under the tutelage I suppose of both of you that in particular to explore ideas philosophy and politics and other things and while I don't think I was some expert on religion obviously I I definitely started to interact with ideas that while they didn't cause me to doubt anything allowed ideas to exist in my mind that I think would end up facilitating leaving the church and seen the problems and the limitations with what was included in that okay all right well that's that's super I love getting the kids point of view along with the parents and so I also think it's interesting that Olivia's sort of questioning and not feeling great about things while Sam junior is feeling extra hyper-religious that's an interesting dynamic between the siblings too so yeah well to be fair like there is definitely a point of time to write like right after moving to Idaho where I think I was very much like I found purpose in being super strict to all the rules and having a testimony and stuff but I think it was maybe because I started to feel like just a failure all the time and like I didn't fit in that I started to like and then I stumbled you know across things on the internet and I I started to just be like hold up yeah yeah okay yeah sorry yeah well and and you use the word hyper-religious and I think that's the perfect way to describe it I mean I was I was Deacon's corn president and then I was teachers corn president and I am sure I would have been you know priests quorum president or on through the levels right because of my sort of like I'm the only guy who's like really all in haha in the ward and so as deacons quorum president you know because I bought into it I was taught you know like the Deacons of the war that came in after me gradually um like I am the the steward and the caretaker and there's all there's all these crucial responsibilities and you know scriptures tell us what deacons responsibilities are and so I would spend hours like legitimately as a 12 and 13 year old kid I would spend hours praying and reading scriptures and like pleading to the God I had been told about to let me feel love for the Deacons and all these things and as you can imagine I'm feeling like an overwhelming sense of love as a twelve or thirteen year old for kids that you really don't know that well which was brought about by hours of intense attempts to feel that or have that experience that was hugely impactful in terms of my perceptions of the reality of personal revelation and all these things and you know only increased how zealous I was about the gospel and my callings within it especially I remember I won't mention any names but there was a deacon at the time he's not part of the word anymore but when I was deacons quorum president um he moved in and his family struggled with the church they were pretty inactive and I just remember praying at night at some point about like how I could reach out to this kid right and I had one of the most powerful spiritual experiences definitely that I had had up until that point right where I really did feel in a completely undeniable way like this great love like this totally unconditional love for this kid and I think that you know all in all that was a great thing and that totally inspired me it was also true that I spent hours and hours of my life trying to you know create those feelings and tinker to them I love it okay so uh you guys yeah please just thinking about the kids perspective moving to Idaho I think I mentioned earlier I wasn't super thrilled about coming back to Idaho and it was for that reason because I spent my childhood in Indiana I guess what you would call the mission field and when we moved to Idaho even as a ten year old I sense that difference of I guess when you're in the minority like in Indiana the youth kind of have to be the examples and stand out and the ward family becomes very much a family and and when I moved to Idaho I remember feeling like yeah a lot of kids my age don't care or it doesn't feel as cohesive of a ward because everyone has their family or everyone has or they're just not that into the church or whatever it might have been so yeah I guess I'm feeling a little sad hearing them say that because I experienced that those same emotions and was kind of why I was not thrilled about coming back to Idaho but and I know it was great I hope we're not like dissing on it and good people I was born 800 my mom was born and raised in Idaho so I have a lot of love yeah it is a great place I hope we're not being too too down on it I bet it's fun for you guys to hear your kids also tell their perspectives and some you

Channel: Mormon Stories Podcast

Views: 47,476

Rating: 4.1748033 out of 5

Keywords: lds, mormon

Id: hneM0kqJLik

Length: 77min 33sec (4653 seconds)

Published: Tue Jun 09 2020