MogTalk: Episode 234 - Experiencing FFXIV's Story as a WoW player

[Music] this is such bad writing it is it's so bad it's so bad it's such bad writing how do you [ __ ] up the shadowlands bro [Music] no bugs mission accomplished no bugs at all nothing he caught all of them there's no way that there's a bug in this time dude what's this what does this say what does it say it cree it it create get off this [Music] welcome everybody to mogtalk today is uh july 10th 2021. uh if you guys are unfamiliar with mocktalk mocktalk is a show based around the final fantasy 14 community discussing everything from savage trading to chuggable racing and before we get too far into this i do want to go ahead and introduce the guests so we're not just all sitting here awkwardly uh i'm gonna start with our new guest pyromancer could you please tell everybody who you are hello my name is uh my name is pyromancer and uh i'm a historically a world of warcraft streamer youtuber kind of content creator more heavily focused around lore and story-driven content um i used to be a higher-end cutting-edge mythic raider in world of warcraft so i have experience on both sides of the the fence and that's what i do so happy to be here thanks for having me very nice to meet you guys and uh hello chad hey everyone uh thanks so because we're doing this and i wanted to have someone who could uh at least be at your level somewhat with final fantasy 14. we're bringing on moose here to help us with this guys tell everybody who you are dude i don't even know who i am anymore um so let's see editor and content creator with gamer escape um heavy into the lore just started talking about it back when endgame was goblins i wanted to start a campfire to sit around and try to figure stuff out because it wasn't totally clear back in the day and somehow that just ended up here i started writing summaries answering questions doing interviews i edited a lore book once really i'm just going wherever this journey takes me and today that's here yeah i i love relying on youtube man uh it used to be i just got this on here but he's often doing whatever hell he's doing and so now he's got some exciting adventures going on and i gotta catch up on him yeah for sure for sure uh but today's show we wanted to talk about the new player experience we have a lot of people coming into the game um for the first time and seeing the final fantasy 14 story for the first time and it's has a lot of debate and discussion something people say one thing about it where they're like i'll just get through it and everything else uh but that's not i feel like that's a little unfair so we wanted to kind of have a good conversation on how new players feel when they come into the game and who else better to talk about it than someone who knows about the lore very well in final fantasy 14 and someone who has experienced it in other mmos and come in and experience it for the first time here which would be pyro uh and so kind of start this off i i want to ask pyro here um so everybody knows what's what's your real history when it comes to wow story and its lore and everything else uh so when it comes to wow i'm kind of known as one of the kind of like theory crafting lore crafting people for world of warcraft and it's it's something that i kind of um kind of started on my youtube channel and some of my kind of like colleagues and peers if you would call them started to get more into it as well and it kind of exploded as this kind of um like new meta of of youtube content for um for world of warcraft and looking back for me i started getting into the lore seriously in uh legion which as i told you isn't that long ago i mean now it's it's about five years um five years five and a half years since i got into it and uh and i've just kind of been following it very very closely very intricately from there i have a ton of lore books as you can see behind me the comic series for world of warcraft the chronicle books all of that stuff uh so yeah that's kind of that's kind of my history with it that's kind of kind of my thing yeah you look like a pro when it comes to wow and following its story with your background moose looks like he's just kind of just kind of there looks can be deceiving so just because you can't see like my massive folders full of like spreadsheets and transcripts and like i can't hang those behind me they look boring yeah okay okay i'd be lying if i told you that every piece of literature behind me has been read front to back that's that's it's not the case it's a lot of it's a lot of writing so uh yeah it's yeah okay okay fair enough uh i do want to go ahead and make sure everybody knows where you are with the final fantasy story because we're not going to like go past that we're going to stay within that realm and we're more concerned about how players are introduced to the story in the game than kind of going into the whole in-depth story that's currently in place for five fantasy 14. so where where are you currently pyro uh so i have completed msq 2.0 content um so i did get the first um end game roll credits uh which were quite something yeah i'll i'll say um and then i've my most recent feat is we did uh i did my first extreme which was obviously extreme ultimate weapon we did midnight level no echo and that was the most fun i've had on the game so far hands down so uh an actual challenge was nice um yeah so that's kind of where i'm at story-wise i'm getting into the into um ar patch content now so that's that's where i'm at uh and i've you know i've heard the name zodiac i've seen the big dark spooky crystal i've met heidel and obviously i've seen the whole fan cred asian thing so uh that's where i'm at her that's where i'm at currently okay cool i mean there's a lot for you to absorb afterwards um and it's i'm excited to see that journey maybe one day i'll be able to catch you at another opportune time and when you're completely done with the story and we'll have a that very large discussion there uh that may happen it may happen um how how well have you avoided spoilers overall in the game because i mean when you get in there it's it's kind of difficult sometimes to avoid it chat can say things and go on but how's it going um in the game i haven't had any issues um i thankfully am a small enough creator that i don't have to deal with the [ __ ] that like asthma gold would deal with when he first logs in so i don't know people spamming chat i don't know people sp spamming things in front of me um as far as chat goes in twitch like that's definitely where most of the spoilers come from thankfully nothing major honestly like i think honestly from what i've witnessed a lot of the spoiling isn't malicious it's at all like a lot of it's not even intentional a lot of it is just people that really love the universe and they're they're excited to see what i'm gonna see and most of the time when spoilers come in it's in in the uh structure something along the lines of has pyro done blank bank blank yet and it's like no i haven't but now i know about coils of bahamut like thanks i didn't know that i was going to have a bahama quest line and now i know as a new player it might not be a spoiler to you but it is a spoiler to me so yeah uh overall it's actually been really good i have a couple really solid mods who are good at catching that stuff and chat mostly just tries to smile away the spoilers and usually it works okay yeah yeah so it's not even uh stay on top of that and smile away to spoilers if you can too and i know we got a couple of cool people in here who can help us mod it if it got too bad but uh i would recommend that anyways i'd recommend just using like the acronyms like because we use them in the game where you just like kind of abbreviate it to three or four letters like i can barely remember what those mean in the game so they're probably not going to spoil him but like those are those are your probable two main sources of spoilers are going to be like people excited to see where you have it haven't been and then memes because like there are so many memes that are just like up to date like two month old stuff and people are already membing all over it so like those are the two main places this is gonna hit you i think i've noticed a couple memes here there but uh yeah i think uh like abbreviating and things like that uh would be great uh you know like when people ask has he done coils has he done coils i'm like i don't know what that is except for that it's a raid i have no other or whatever if that's what it is like i have no other context but as soon as you add like of bahamut like now you've added a lot of context to it and that's where it turns into a spoiler so yeah like this i don't know there's such devastation if you if you do enough if you do enough uh roulettes that one's going to become like it was a line in praetorium which is a dungeon you have done yeah okay i did such devastation was not my intention and like they just they may if you do roulettes um you have to watch all the cutscenes in that dungeon so that because they used to like pressure new players into skipping all the cutscenes and watching them on youtube or watching them in room and square alex was like no no so thank god you watch all those cutscenes and you're gonna you're gonna hear such devastation this was not my intention like 500 times if you're trying to grind tombstones so it's never gonna leave your head yeah yeah i i've i love some of the memes dude like the prey return to the waking sands when like when i first started when i first like went back to the waking sands and people are just spamming prey return in the chat i was like what the [ __ ] is going on like what's happening and now like every time that i go there i'm like i'm praying i'm returning so like i i definitely love the memes like a lot of them are wholesome and funny and and uh like i'm definitely open to embracing it yeah i mean i don't think we have anyone who is going to be doing like the the harry spotter spoiling we're running around saying you know famous lines of spoiling for that because that's harry potter yeah harry potter dies right they don't run around and say that uh but they're going to yeah everyone's just excited to see you play the game they want to see they want to see that experience they they love it they they remember it the the scenes in their head as being like really big moments for them and they're excited to see what happens when you see that so it makes sense and people just don't have they don't know right they don't know what they're saying i think that's and that's what it boils down to like as as the the one who will you know kind of expose themselves to the potential for spoilers through streaming like you just kind of have to realize the intent of people and like understand that like sometimes it's it's pretty obvious to tell when someone's trying to spoil you to be a jerk and i really feel like 95 of the time that's not the case it's really just someone excited someone passionate and didn't didn't realize the the implication of what they were saying and and so it's all good i think for me the most frustrating thing is is when you i've had some people try to argue with me what is and isn't a spoiler and it's like if i haven't seen it if i haven't literally seen an npc say it been sent there by a quest or or mentioned it myself it's a spoiler so like you don't you just don't talk about it so that's the only thing but it's been good it's been good it's really not been that an issue at all yeah and i'm assuming you've watched like the the trailers for expansions and stuff right uh no no i won't no that's awesome no i've seen i mean i i saw obviously um a rum reborn cinematic when you start the game but i saw it way before that years ago um and then i did see i saw uh the shadowbringers one so i know what's gonna happen with that to an extent i don't understand the context or the story behind it i just know that there's a really menacing looking angel that the person fights and that's pretty much what i do okay yeah i mean that's what the trailer was portraying so yeah no um and so it's good it's uh [Music] it's actually i i expect everybody who's coming into the game has seen the in walker trailer uh and the problem with these trailers of course is that they show you stuff and you're like okay well this is going to be in this expansion so you already have a little bit of headway before you even see or get to that part of the story so uh that's good i i will keep my mouth up yep not doing it i haven't seen heaven's ward i haven't seen stormbringer i haven't seen any of that so yeah thanks no that's good but yeah um and then go ahead i was gonna say like i told you i i did do some research for the purpose of backing up something that i was saying in in regards to a world of warcraft theory uh thematically how shadowbringers kind of tackled light and darkness um at least the way that it's i've interpreted it uh so i've seen some things towards the end game of it but i can't like i told you i can't remember anything like yeah i can't actually i can see images in my head but i can't remember what the [ __ ] any of it means good don't don't even worry about trying to remember it uh i wanted to ask you a little bit about uh your current feelings with just as a nice little side conversation with uh wow storyline because when i was man i used to be into wow story i used to when of course when you first start i think back in classic when you played vanilla in the in the first days uh i i you know i got into it i didn't care about the story i knew about a guy and his wife died in an orc tent and i had to go talk to uh you know and there's like a handful of things in the story but then it started to get kind of interesting i think towards like rather lich king and burning crusade and all that stuff but at the beginning it was just new player experience with the story wasn't really great for me uh i don't know if you you feel differently about that uh for wow specifically are you asking the new experience for fun uh well so they've kind of revamped it now where they have a new thing um uh called i think it's called exiles reach and it's like a new um starting zone experience that uh frankly i haven't done because i haven't been interested in making a new character for the last two expansions uh with that being said um i heard it's really good i heard that it is really good for what reasons honestly i don't really understand because it sounds like you're kind of on this foreign island with um ogres and you fight a dragon or something so like the as asman gold mentioned in his video talking about it compared to uh final fantasy the kind of power creep there happens kind of early as far as visually like you're fighting a dragon in your starting experience and you know i mean it's like runescape has done that in the past so it's not like the most off the wall thing but like as far as like outside of that they also restructured the leveling sequences so you can level through one to 60 in any of the expansions we'll come back to that um sure sure because as far as like story integrity what does that mean for like a new player like like i don't know i i that rubs me the wrong way because you can start wherever you want and go wherever you want so there's no continuity in the story for a new player it's actually [ __ ] god-awful it's actually it's actually [ __ ] terrible uh and if it yeah no i was just gonna say that's a really really good important point because both of these games i mean of course wow it's been out much longer uh at this point but you know when we're talking about what you do with the future of the story and how do you make it a playable experience for new players coming in and what wow is doing is they make it really a big deal right i guess you just get to experience some part of the story and then you hit max level and whatever is at the end you experience that with everyone else right that is that is absolutely the case so like let's say if you were to roll like an orc for some reason you know whatever you know because that's what you want to play yeah um excuse me and you experience the the storylines in durotar and in the northern barrens it has literally [ __ ] all to do with anything that's been relevant in the last like seven years eight years so a lot of the content that you're doing is like it's not linked to in any significant kind of way the content that you would be doing later on and the issue that arises with that is unlike in final fantasy where you have an initial world building and a primary plot that you're following world of warcraft is much more it's much more segmented into different areas around the world like as a night elf you're gonna learn things about the night elf society and about elune who's the moon goddess of the night in world of warcraft and you're gonna learn about um all these different things but as a blood elf player you're not gonna learn any of that so you lose so much by how segmented and fragmented the game is um so yeah it's in my opinion it's not that's part of why there's such a large quantity of players who don't understand the storyline like point to point because there's just so much [ __ ] that exists between point a and point b that it's way too much to digest and frankly most of it uh not most of it a lot of the more significant parts of it aren't in the game they're in books so i mean uh you know absolutely i mean used to be really overwhelming for me too uh when i back in the day and how it was structured before my memory of how it was structured before they changed it to this new system is that you picked the race and then you played through the beginning of that race's little story then you joined the main horde story or the main alliance story in some way right yeah yes and if you're playing alliance you kind of get a different story of horde and that was just own way of storytelling right you you kind of you're on your side and you're learning that story and that was interesting uh but i'm guessing it's not even comparable with the new system um well the the horde in the alliance thing that's another topic in and of itself because i think it should be it should be deprecated like i honestly think that that should be that should be gone like there's been so many times where we've united to fight the greater good like for the greater good like we literally just united the remaining champions of the factions to fight death like what the [ __ ] to literally fight death itself like how how how are you gonna be enemies like when you come together and and fight that type of [ __ ] like how are we going to go back to our sides and that is that is a good point like historically playing in the factions like you would get completely uh completely different uh experiences and points of views for different events based on what faction you were playing and it's it again it sucks because that's cool for your faction and that storyline and what that is what that means but you can't you're missing crucial information to the whole context of the situation and it leaves a lot of players feeling a sense as though they don't understand certain characters actions they don't understand the the little things that happen on either side and and so a lot a lot of value is lost there and that's why i i think that um final fantasy approach and and honestly most other mmos approaches where you're not faction bound and you can experience the story the same way regardless of who you are or where you're coming from or what race you are right i think that that is a thing that wow does not have and i i think it's extremely detrimental to the story okay uh i mean going back to final fantasy i just want to get some insight on kind of wild side of this because of course we're going to compare stuff why why why wouldn't we right uh but coming back to final fantasy 14 um it is all one funneled story there there is there is like you know kind of a separation but it comes down to one story that you're following um and it's refreshing in a way i guess coming from that experience because you're not trying to i mean you can ask moose there's probably lots of different pieces that you could try to put together uh to make the whole lore and story and world of final fantasy xiv but everybody is on the same path and they can all be on the same page with everything um have you there's a there's a mechanic i think there's a mechanical thing in play here too because wow had kind of the the incentivized thing going on where they wanted people to play different races different classes and like really make lots of characters i think whereas in 14 one of their selling points was you can do it all on one character so they took a bit of the the skyrim approach where you all start in the same place but you can become kind of whatever you want but all of that's in one character and anyone can experience it so the only thing we really lose out on here is the city stories where if you know you don't you know if you start in gridania you don't learn as much about ulda and even that's been toned down drastically in a realm reborn compared to what it was in 1.0 yeah yeah they're in world of warcraft like i first off i that's one of the things that i love the most about final fantasy is my character is everything and that's honestly part of why i like um and i've played runescape for like 20 [ __ ] years too so uh i've been playing runescape forever and that's one of the things that i love about that game too is i'm not bound by my initial decision that's gonna dictate literally the way that i can interact and play with the game because i have the freedom to do any combat style at any time that i want and i have to train those things independently of one another but when i put in the time and i make it all come together my character ends up being anything i want whenever i want and that's [ __ ] amazing i mean having to re-level a character for the fourth time because you want to be able to use daggers instead of a staff sucks and especially with all the all of the system integrations that they've had over the years in world of warcraft you kind of start to find yourself like running into the wall of this is quite literally exactly the same thing uh that i did before uh but i'm being forced to repeat all this this this kind of like gatekeeping content because i want to play a different style of attack and that's just like [ __ ] man i just really wish i had the flexibility to to for that for that to not be the case so that is something i really like every time someone brings up runescape i automatically think of my old days when i played its counterpart the le the the cheap uh competitor tibia is the one that i played uh which was way worse than runescape i tried to play runescape i was like oh this is for people who have better computers i guess because of how bad tibia was uh but uh yeah i'm trying to remember my days of runescape it just throws you in there it just says all right good luck here's the world and have fun you get tutorial island you're in there for like 20 minutes yeah i throw you in a lumbridge and it's like the world is yours like do what you and like there's still like there's still incremental rewards and things you have to you know quest to do in other quests so there's still story lines and stuff that exist in that aspect but kind of kind of throwing you in there is definitely what runescape does um real quick to backtrack a little bit to what moose said uh you mentioned kind of the how the story elements uh can are are loosely tied in for like the different cities obviously depending on what you pick when you start and i think that um that's honestly as a new player that's fine like learning about where like where i'm from and and the or not where i'm from but where where i'm from pseudo from limsa leminsa in this case uh right that's yeah that's what i'm told um yeah like you know that's that's cool i i think in wow it takes it another step further honestly because in the actual games universe there's actually not a lot of like um city history which is funny uh like there's been revamps to cities like stormwind and orgrimmar but there's not um there's not like a as far as i'm aware anyway there's not like a historian or anyone that you can go to to learn about the development of your cities or any of those kinds of things uh so the detachment from the actual homeland is is is a real thing for some players in world of warcraft and i think where where wow did it did did it well but also did it wrong a good example of that would be honestly two recent systems one of which would be the artifact weapons from uh legion and the current one would be the covenant system in shadowlands where basically you make a choice depending on your class or depending on um your personal alignments and beliefs for a certain artifact weapon for a certain class which is like your relic weapons or um a certain covenant and and you get the story as a part of those covenants but if you're not part of that covenant you don't get you don't get that you don't get any of that actually there's parts of it where they intermingle a little bit and cross over and you'll get the same cinematic at the end of the campaign that someone else got in this but slightly different and like a different covenant but you lose so much by making those decisions uh blizzard is all about making meaningful decisions but when you're making meaningful decisions that are kind of blinding you to the other story content surrounding it and you have to make another [ __ ] character to experience it it's just exhausting yeah like there's there's there were there were custom unique quest lines for every single artifact weapon in legion there was like 36 of them and if you didn't play every single spec you didn't get that there's no way that someone like me as a player could actually gather all of that information in any reasonable amount of time and so since there's no way there's no condensed knowledge base there's no there's nothing to refer to outside of doing it directly a lot of [ __ ] is lost a lot of stuff yeah not to drag like an entire other franchise into this but i'm like the way you're talking about it reminds me of how much i appreciated um the way dragon age approached it in a way because you get all of the information but you still get to make choices and while the choices don't necessarily matter so much in terms of changing the gameplay perspective they help build this sense of identity that you've made meaningful choices without taking away anything from you without locking it behind another run without locking it behind another character um and it does sound a little frustrating to have to like refer to outside sources just to find you know a story you might have liked yeah yeah and and the outside sources are are probably for wow honestly it's probably wow's biggest story issue there's far too much far too much content that exists in those books it is [ __ ] stupid just one of the wars in the game called the war of the ancients is three books over there that are 350 pages of my god it's over a thousand pages of literature how do you expect people to read that like that's not the same approach as the lore books that we have like the lore books that we have in 14 are like everything in the game has what's called like a back end pr blurb like there's just like a paragraph about what it is uh whether it's like a city a person a character a war a weapon an outfit like everything just kind of has a pr blurb so that when you're referencing it you can look it up and be like oh okay yeah that's what it is so what they do when they make the lore book they grab all of those blurbs and they just kind of organize and flesh them out and then connect them all together in a pleasing way but it's all stuff that exists in the game at some point aside from maybe 10 of it yeah that's that's the problem and and the thing is in in wow they have they have a very character driven storyline so for instance like the game has revolved around sylvanas windrunner essentially for the last like two expansions and there are details uh in one of the books um i was talking about this on my stream yesterday in one of the books called before the storm it came out in the last patch of the legion expansion and in the book it talks about or came out before battle for azeroth did so after the last patch in the book it talks about uh sylvanas holding this material that is essentially the blood essence of the world that you live in which apparently houses a titan which is essentially this like god-like astral being that she's apparently like the most powerful titan that's ever been known and she's literally holding this essence and in the book it talks about how in that moment she felt not like a queen not like a banshee or anything like that she felt like a goddess of creation and destruction and she'd never realized how deeply those two forces were intertwined as a right is a fundamental resource that existed in battle for azeroth that was used for almost everything in the expansion so the essence of our very world that is now bleeding out onto the surface is symbolically creation and destruction like made manifest that exists absolutely [ __ ] nowhere nowhere i'm not joking it exists nowhere except in the line in the book what the [ __ ] that's like that's huge like to find out that the goddess in the world that you live on is potentially like the creator and the destroyer like that's huge but it's in a book and nobody knows so so people look back on the plot line and they see like oh the a a x y and z happened but they don't realize that w over there was like a really big deal and they're never gonna see it cause it's not in the game it's driving me crazy like i i'm someone who loves extra lore like if i could just go out and read other stories that weren't in the game and get all sorts of cool information that's great but not when it comes to the expense of properly understanding in context what is in the game i played you that's the problem with wow like there's two there's far too much contextualization and personification and internalized dialogue that exists in these books like you get to you get to read how sylvanas thinks and in the game you don't get any of that you just get her doing devilish mustache twirling evil [ __ ] because we don't have any of her motives none of it's explored it's it's a complete it's a complete joke and then you get to the end where sylvanas has this very recently like literally the newest content this huge moment where like her very being is altered by death and people can't even relate or or have sympathy or have any type of connection with this character because blizzard didn't do diligence to build the character's relatability in any capacity in the game universe i wanted so i want to see you come back to this description when you finish shadowbringers um because like i think if you listen to this and try to imagine what it would be like if shadowbringers was a book instead of an expansion it would be exactly the same problem and they dodged it here there are certain factions late in the game that finally get kind of exposition characterization context and a lot of fleshing out like that that they just hadn't invested that in before but it's in the game it's not in a book so like i think if you return to this like you know when you finished all that and we're just like imagining what it would be like for this to happen to sylvanas instead i think that would be an interesting conversation and you know what dude you know what the next world of warcraft novel is called what is it still honest and it's coming out early next year so now we get to read a book about all the internal happenings about sylvanas throughout the expansion and none of it will be in the game it's gonna be great so i i will say final fantasy does have some things like that but it's so mild i think they post on their lodestone the main web page they have short stories that are like really quick easy reads that you could just read every once in a while that they post up there and they're crucial i mean if you really want to get into it i think they're pretty crucial to read wouldn't you say some moose which ones i don't know any of the short stories i mean i would say yes um they release them kind of in batches every every the rising um like the anniversary of the game and i don't like i'm trying to think of the word like i would use like you can understand properly without them but a little like that you get a little context a little framing that you're just able to be like okay i can see where they were coming from a little clearer and i think it's they did it because they realized that people really latched on to an idea that they didn't think to fully flesh out and they're like here's our chance i gotcha and that kind of existed wow in an aspect as well like if you go to the world of warcraft website they do actually have a story section that's probably the most neglected part of the world of warcraft website um it's actually right next to the shop and um oh wait no it's not did they move it oh they put it under the game tab okay so you can go in here and there's short stories there's um 4 8 12 16 18 uh no wait four eight well 16 20 24 28 32 36 there's 38 short stories and uh and some of them are like what you're describing where it's like a little bit of bonus content just a little bit in there and then some of these are like why in the actual [ __ ] is this just a random short story on a page on your website what in the hell is this like some of these are are huge hugely relevant and what's what's difficult about wow is they've always had um historically anyway uh give me sure they've had um since 2015 anyway this is chronicle vol 1. they've had a cosmic outline for how the cosmic forces in world of warcraft work and it's all been described via this chart right so this probably looks familiar to like the etheric map or whatever for um final fantasy and then here you have like you have like primordial forces of like light shadow order disorder life and death right you have spirit fire earth decay air or water and then you have entities that are aligned with different types of powers and then you have earth and react not earth but uh reality and azeroth in the center the problem is is that now we've reached a point even though this has been present in all three novels even the most recent one which released in 2018 or 2019 in the third volume in all of these books this is your encyclopedia aorzia this is what this is and the problem is now it's changing and now they're introducing other perspectives of the cosmic forces so that they can make so they can make retcons to their work because it was pretty it was pretty rigid originally and it's it's [ __ ] up because i dissected this chart many times in videos and pointed out flaws in it and reasons why it didn't make any sense i have completely dissected these chronicle books and for years i've been pointing out how things that that are said in these books the continuity does not align um uh does not align to what's seen in the game universe it does not align with things that are said in short stories and my belief because i always wanted to give blizzard the benefit of the doubt was what they're doing is they're doing subtle hinting especially with chronicle it's it's intentionally deceptive because it's going to be leveraged as a way to give you a twist later on is what they're doing it's very very very long-term investment and i and at blizzcon 2019 um it was set on stage by the lead narrative designer of world of warcraft he says on stage uh chronicle um is is a history in like all histories you know there's uh there's a perspective right and he he says to the crowd uh for chronicle you know like whose perspective would that have been from and you can see it on that you can hear it on the live stream i shout from the crowd i was like the titans and he goes yeah the titans and those who who work for the titans and yada yada so then he goes on to explain that the book is full of perspectives and is not a and all be all a book so then it kind of turns into what you said earlier moose where you're like well why would i buy this book that's got a bunch of [ __ ] in it that's not true and that's the that's why i got so invested in this universe is because i that's what i did as i took your um your line of sight on it and i went if that's the case then we can find it it's it's in here then and there's already things that i've identified that are in here but it's just so unfortunate that so much of the integrity of the story and nuance of the story exists outside of the game that most people can't even they'll never get their hands on this they'll never delve into this and so uh the complexity of the warcraft story is it's it's it's too much for the average person to digest because there's just too much that exists in the background i do want to ask this question because if i remember right there's a lot of different authors for the story of final or i was not following sorry wow a lot of different authors for a while so it could be a lot of different things mixed up i'm not really sure how all that works if they have one big mastermind that's kind of directing them when they write it or they're just like hey write it and we'll accept it as story later on um i don't think you know i think that um some of the big guys who are now gone were probably the ones who really handled the reigns on where the story direction was going to go because in world of warcraft since the very beginning the the conflict has literally always been between the titan pantheon of gods of which there are six and sargeras the one who turned against them because he was trying to cleanse the universe of an infection that he believed was only curable by flames turns out as the story has progressed he might not necessarily be incorrect in that regard but um now they've started to add on like more and more layers of complexity they're adding in entities that have never been mentioned they're not they have no uh integrity to the to the canon story so far they've added they've added in hints to like a clockmaker that's like at the very top of the totem pole and then there's these first ones which are like universe constructing entities and then there's like the titans and the inter eternal ones which we did and it's just what they've done is they've they've kind of sacrificed that original i think anyway that original story beat that uh chris metzen really uh was the the main proponent of and they've tried to expand it up into something that it's not and and the shitty part about that is and some people say that i'm full of [ __ ] for saying this but i think the shitty part is i could have probably written their story to an end and how to be satisfying without having to introduce four more layers of entities it just doesn't need to be there and so from for people like me that were heavily invested in everything that we've known up until this point now they start dropping all this [ __ ] on you and you're like okay dude like like the lich king's been around since warcraft 3 but now you're telling me that there's been a hidden entity known as the jailer locked in the shadow lands for aeons that's existed behind that entity and there's all this all these nuanced story things that come as a part of that and you just i'm supposed to just accept that now because you say that that's what's been happening yeah so i'm curious if you have the same reaction to it that i do when stuff like that comes up which is like where you have all of these deep possibilities from a long time ago that you could use to make kind of a coherent overarching story where there's lots of connections and instead what they do is they choose to bring you out of that by trying to be like new and fresh but instead just reminding you we wrote this two weeks ago that this doesn't actually connect like that feeling that feeling kind of draws me out of the game where you really just notice we just wrote this yeah it's not part of it like that's that part draws me out of it even when it connects even when it's good it still draws me out of it you can still see my satisfaction right yep it's it's definitely something you can feel and i i think i think that's very relatable to me of like god there's such a there's such a beautiful thing that exists here in your hands that like if you just shaped it the right way it could be incredible and you don't need all the extra resources and development and storyboard time to sit you just don't need it and i know that that's just one guy's opinion but it's it's showing in viewer engagement and in gaming uh game engagement that the average person that does care about the story is not interested in this hyper cosmic level of storytelling we don't need to like we don't need another layer of gods that designed the universe we could have just literally said the titans did that that's the way it's written in chronicle to an extent like we just we just don't need it and so um yeah i i definitely can relate to that where there's there's so much that exists so much that could be expanded upon but for some reason we're trying to find new horizons and they're not bright yeah it's a big deal uh and you have to be able to write with because we've had this conversation moose uh before where like you you don't need like the super was it dragon ball z where you're just going one layer above one layer right i mean just like going over and over if you do it well you don't need to do that and uh lucy was saying something sorry no no i was i was just reaching for this idea that like um again like if we looked back on this someday when you had completed the story i'd be interested to see some of your perspectives on it because 14 takes a very different route they like when they write new stories they like to look back at the old stories and think what can we use here and we start to see kind of the same phenomenon but from a different perspective like we start to see that i know you wrote this two weeks ago because when we first heard about that it was six years ago and you didn't know anything about it and then four years ago is the thing that came up that you're now using is the connection between the two so like you can tell that you just wrote it but at the same time you're just like take your upvote and get out like at least there's a in a bridge at least in the in some cases there's an abridgement though like a lot of times what happened like in wow for instance like the lich king you know as far as we've ever known the legion was responsible for the creation of the lich king and the lich king do you know that you know the lich king i mean i was everywhere i know like i've read the art i've read the wicked wiki article but i don't understand it terribly deeply that's okay basically there's like an enchanted helmet enchanted sword apparently this so this helmet was crafted by these terrible demons called dreadlords and they found this um unsuspecting paladin on azeroth who they were gonna manipulate to becoming the dark lord of the dead and it worked okay like classic fantasy story trope you take the shining beacon of hope and he falls to darkness and makes bad decisions and you vanquish him and you get your retribution um but that was that's really what uh warcraft uh warcraft 3 was was back telling the story of how the legion infiltrated the the the humans and how they were campaigning across azeroth and other worlds well now it turns out that the helmet was linked to another entity known as zoval or the jailer for short or not really for short but as as a what he's more commonly known by um and apparently that that helmet was linked to the consciousness and influence of this other guy well the warcraft 3 warcraft frozen throne [ __ ] is 15 years old so what you do is you tell this story about how the legion was responsible and all this stuff with the the lich king and you have this conquest that leads to sylvanas becoming this banshee character because of what the lich king does to her like this is one of the biggest characters in the history of wow and then in the newest expansion they write in uh they write in um this character this guy who's apparently been behind it the whole time 15 years later you try to do that how do you duct tape a new story to something like that without diminishing the original journey you don't know it's kind of a loaded question i don't think there's another answer to that you don't like you when you look back on kind of what that journey like we're humans are meaning making machines right so if we look back on a journey we've been through we've already made meaning of it and there are certain ways to reframe it that i think takes so much of it away from it that what do we even think about it like that anymore like i know it's very useful for the for the developers to think like great now i've created this little fork off of our existing thing and i can write something new and it's not totally new but at the same time like i feel like it sometimes disrespects the journey that we've been on and cheapens it and i that's what that's where my argument of the lack of integrity and continuity comes from it's just for people that are like me that have become so invested it just kind of feels like it's disappointing and and to like honestly to an ex to an extent it's like it's a little heartbreaking and i think that that's where a lot of my hurt personally for world of warcraft currently comes from is that i just um it's not about the game turning out the way that i want it to it's just if you're going to give me hints and you're going to put these things in your game that are clearly meant to meant to lead to a certain type of understanding or interpretation like you need to you need to respect that and you can't change that later because it makes people feel like what the [ __ ] did i believe in like what did knowing that even it didn't make any difference and that's a big problem that they've that they've had with sylvanas that's why a lot of people are burnt out in the warcraft storyline now is because this entire last expansion and a half she's been serving the jailer who's who's directly responsible for the lich king turning her into a banshee who's like this she's basically like this fractured soul like half um corporeal half incorporeal being and she's serving him the whole time she's serving she's serving she's serving she's carrying out his will she's abducting people she's killing people she's doing all this stuff and then at the end the very end when they're finally successful in their achievement and make no mistake in the world of warcraft storyline we just lost big for like the first time ever huge loss like there's no win to take away from this but anyway uh she she turns to him and she's like i will never serve it's like you've been did you forget the last eight months did you forget the last expansion what all you've done is served what do you mean now all of a sudden you're not gonna serve because he said the word serve and it triggered your ptsd and like what the like it's just it's it's that's that's part of what i mean with like character continuity like what the [ __ ] is that no you've been serving the whole time why are you gonna turn against him now like there's no other way you you could still get to the same endpoint and write the scenario differently and just have her get her soul back differently like it doesn't have to be her it's just so stupid it's just so stupid so and it's so predictable it's so predictable i gotta i gotta say my favorite shows that we do are the ones where i don't have to say [ __ ] you guys are doing great i'm so triggered right now dude i'm so [ __ ] mad it's just it's it's such a disrespect it's such a disrespect to the people that have followed sylvanas over the last 15 years it's such a disrespect to her character development it's such a disrespect to people's like time and hype to get to this point and have that that's the result that we get like that's the that's the redemption that we get sylvanas windrunner ever so resolute in her ineffable like journey to end the world all of a sudden decides she doesn't want to serve it's just so it's so stupid and this is also very fresh in your mind because it just happened recently it literally just happened this is the newest content it's the newest content uh so i guess we can we can try to diverge it or try to like take the train back to the final fantasy 14 side just maybe that's a more positive note sorry i get i'm so passionate oh it's good and it's i it's not been in a good story state for a while it just sucks that's why i have you here man i i uh i love it uh so i i do want to ask you when you got into final fantasy 14 uh kind of having you have all this wow kind of thoughts and all this craziness and criticism and all this stuff kind of in your head uh going into final fantasy 14 when did you start 14 by the way um so i have um so i i pretty much only play it on stream i've only played it off stream like twice because i think it's uh more fun to have other people there for the adventure i'm just going to look at my first uh my first stream of it was on may 20th and i currently yeah i currently have probably a hundred hours in the game so a month and a half or so so it's kind of fresh final fantasy 14 is still pretty fresh for you it's very yeah definitely uh so going into uh the first part of the story can you tell me kind of your impression and how you kind of responded to how they were telling you that story going into final fantasy 14 for the first time yeah i mean i think um i think that it was the world building aspect of it is really good like i think you very quickly dropping into the limbs elements i think you very quickly get a sense of like oh this is the atmosphere like these are the people i'm dealing with they all they all speak this way like they all have their little their little jargon in their their uh you know crazy names it's not yeah i'm a crate oh my god their names in this game are [ __ ] uh they're totally different topic yeah yeah um but it was uh it was good like i liked how they kind of went around and had me introduced to like the different aspects of the game that i could participate in i liked um i like that i love the amount of cutscenes in the game like the the amount of cutscenes although not all voiced and i know that that gets better later on because sometimes when it is voiced um but uh like i thought it was i thought it was pretty good like it was it was linear in a way that was easy for me to follow i think the way that they developed the primal threat early on was very nice like it gave me a very clear path of like these are a [ __ ] problem and i don't really know like at the time i don't really know why they're a problem i just know that they're big and they're dangerous and i need to check it out and then as you get as you build more into that and you start to learn about the aseans meddling in it and how they're kind of manipulating the the empire to do what they want um to create chaos and spread darkness over the over the world like uh the the building on top of it was in my opinion uh really well done uh personally okay the individual characters are relatable um and some of them fun you know there's obviously some silly uh joke characters that exist in the game um and those are fun like the guy that you talk to when you're getting ready to fight titan and he keeps referring to him as titus that was great uh one of my favorite quests so far um and it doesn't seem like honestly the biggest thing i watched like i said i watched asmongold's video on his kind of like first thoughts yesterday and he said something to me that kind of struck me as odd that i didn't even realize that i was like kind of responding to he's super right though is in this game when you come across like antagonists it is so much more common for them to be like heard and understood and kind of like forgiven and given the opportunity to like do better in world of warcraft it's not like that you kill everybody like you seriously like you kill everyone like if someone does the wrong thing you go and kill people you don't even know what they did you're just there to kill things because someone sent you on a mission so in this game it's it's interesting at least initially because there's a lot more redemption that's it on a realistic not corny level um and i think it causes a greater i think asman's right in what he said he said that he thinks that that rubs off on the player and it kind of gives you less of a vibe of like [ __ ] kill or be killed and it's more of like well wait a second like do we even need to go that route like why are we here like what where did where was the miscommunication like where did where did this go wrong why did this this young boy you know he's trying to se he's trying to help his people but he didn't realize that they'd be tempered if they summoned ephrat like you know it's yeah it's it's it's good at the core and in world of warcraft even if it's good the core a lot of people die anyway so yeah uh and i think that's that's kind of a little bit on how the the people who are making the story that's just their kind of emotions and feelings and they want to put this across uh to all the players and make sure that that's what they feel feels right and that's how the story should go and they give some pretty interesting perspectives moose do you have uh any thoughts on that i had a couple and now like the number one one that's on my mind is like if you like this idea of exploring kind of how our villains became villains and what our different perspectives are and what the resources are that we're competing for and whether we can't see eye to eye or whether we really just have to kill each other i think you're probably gonna like this game yeah you're gonna like the kid yeah i'm i'm excited because because wow is like again wow is one of those things where you have the factions and we just can never get over it we just won't it's it just will never happen which is funny because in the in the first novel of the of the graphic novels uh there's a guy that actually watches over the world he's called the watcher his name's algolon and he says uh that he believes that the denizens of azeroth are destined for war and that they're meant to be an eternal conflict and strife it's just interesting but anyway uh one of the things i love about this game is that like there are some parts where it starts to make you feel like you know you question that idea like am i a weapon that's being aimed at things like am i is that how people think of me but then there are these other moments where you come around and it's just kind of like okay i understand you i get you you make some good points still gotta die and i really love those moments because there's such a diversity of people that ki i feel like the best way to describe it is everybody makes their own choices and we get to see that decision-making process and do something that's consistent with our values no matter what they choose and i really like that about this game yeah yeah they have they have a level of like emotional integrity and investment which which wow that's what a lot of people struggle with with wow like uh people just kind of turn evil and you know a lot of the the path that happens there some of that's in books some of that's not elaborated on very well at all and it leads to kind of this empty feeling as well where like you finally get to this dungeon boss who's responsible for killing aloha who was like a god of the wilderness or whatever and you killed them and you're like cool that was kind of like empty like it just it feels it does it feels very empty it just feels like well i'm i'm literally a murder machine and there's it's so [ __ ] up because there's even characters in the game that say it to you that are like your your crimes are terrible numberless glorious like you're a murderer you're a thief you're a liar and when you look back on a lot of the [ __ ] that you do in that game they're not wrong they're not wrong in in warcraft you are very commonly just a weapon aimed at something else and there's no questioning it there's no moral compass there's nothing everyone around you has their own like pseudo-moral compass which they may or may not uh decide to stick to you see that a lot in world of warcraft where people make moral decisions that don't fit with their character alignment frankly and sometimes we do that right like sometimes we as individuals make choices that don't necessarily best illustrate our true intentions within ourselves but it happens frequently enough and wow that people just become detached and they're like [ __ ] it then like if this character can't be consistent there's no level of of like integrity or emotional connection why am i here why do i care about this character i think naoki yoshida has been very very careful about how he wants people to see the warrior of light because they're the warrior of light right you're looking back on you know years of final fantasy history and what it means to be a warrior of light and he doesn't want to alienate people who resonate with that so i think that there's a lot of times where he makes sure no matter what's going on when we kill somebody they drew their weapon first or they're a threat to someone we care about and that doesn't mean that it was always the best idea to kill them sometimes we do come out of it feeling like a murderer but we we were attacked first or we thought we were protecting something in almost every case and and at least in that case like if you to the point of thinking that you're protecting something at least like there can potentially be a level of deception involved in that where like it like as long as you know i think it's it's it's a dangerous uh like conversation when you get into like well if your intentions were good then then you know it's justified you know there's always a gray area that exists in that regard but i think that um i think that yeah that is that's kind of a nice thing in final fantasy that i've experienced so far where there's been a couple times where i'm like i'm like dude like i don't i don't know if i should have done that like that felt kind of wrong and and you'll sometimes get characters that kind of reflect that back to you and kind of make you think about uh should i have done that and in wow that's again it's just it's just it's not a thing there's there's not a lot of um npc induced uh personal reflection there's there's a general lack of empathy and emotional disconnect to characters and that's why long-term blizzard will do certain things with their characters that's going to get them in a lot of [ __ ] heat because they don't they don't like what you were saying like you can just keep building onto it you keep building onto it and sometimes that's not the right choice that's just not not the right decision yeah i'm glad that uh final fantasy's not like that no no i mean you know we can always criticize final fantasy 14 story after we start diving into it i mean moose could probably you know we've had shows where we're like okay we're going to be critical about it i mean it's not going to be like 100 gold and perfect everything uh because in the end they are making a game and they have to add these game elements to it for it to be fun i do think that maybe wow is like really like this is mmo game everything else will throw the story in there maybe somehow and then we'll pay a whole bunch of authors to try to make it all make sense i don't know that's my assumption in the background sometimes that is how it feels man um it feels bad for the authors too because the yeah dude anyway finish what you're going to say i was going to say that final fantasy does that in some regard as well they want cool things to happen but i think they do a really good job bleeding it all together i'm not sure how the decision-making goes with the raids and everything else i know there's probably some communication between the story writers and the people developing the pve content uh but i don't know yeah yeah i don't know how that differs uh you know with the team uh i think blizzard probably has a lot more employees maybe i'm wrong maybe maybe i don't think so probably it's kind of huge uh feels like a safe assumption yeah yeah and sometimes like you know i think that that that's a good point you know i think um i there was a time where uh there was an interview with i think it was ian has a kostas um who's the lead game designer of the warcraft and i believe i think it was him in an interview he said a lot of times when we go to design raid encounters and things of that nature we actually stop in with the lorry and storyboard team because we want to make sure that the con continuity and integrity is there and honestly most of the time it is like actually a lot of the lore that you get in world of warcraft actually comes from raids um and i understand that final fantasy can be similar in some aspects but i'll see that as i progress i suppose right um and so a lot of it does uh come from that there's definitely like a team continuity there however sometimes that can actually be an issue because you start to get so many people on board you have so many different designers working on so many different quests that have to have things aligned thematically you know like if someone's going to use a certain kind of magic the magic animation that they use should match it and the way in which that that magic is handled should be continuous regardless of setting and so there's a lot of things that you have to balance and keep track of there and that's on a micro scale as soon as you get into the macro scale of primary story lines there's a lot of people involved there from the cinematic teams to the storyboard and writing teams including authors like christy golden who is the most recognized author for world of warcraft it's what most of the books behind me are written written from and then you get the raid team you get the encounter design team you get the class design team you get the the art team and this the setting uh and instance design team that is so many different moving parts i have to give it to blizzard that for their raid encounters and dungeon encounters the it's actually really [ __ ] good that's where the best content in world of warcraft exists it's just outside of that content there's there's like [ __ ] all there's just like nothing there's like there's there's small story lines here there that you can do for like [ __ ] random stuff but most of it doesn't connect back to the the main world and what's really going on in the same way that i find that it's doing in final fantasy so that's where i think a big disconnect is for wow um that makes it a little different from final fantasy is that in the world around the primary scenario it doesn't feed back into it as well as i think it could in a way that makes you care about the story care about the people involved in the story and who are affected by the events of the story and honestly it leads people to just like skip cut scenes and not read quest dialogue because they're just apathetic to the the way that the game um uh keeps them engaged with you talking about wow for that yes yeah okay wow that's a problem that's a big problem but final fantasy doesn't seem to do that okay so far how have you enjoyed like going through that experience and hitting these cut scenes and hitting these voice lines and everything else and just that whole experience of going through uh you know but yeah i got to ask you one other question because child got like fifty thousand tell me tell me why they keep asking me about this uh because apparently i'm good at it um and so anytime that i get a quest that's not voiced i voice acted every single one um and sometimes it's not a fitting voice but sometimes it's just fun um and so that's what i'll do every every single time uh i'm pretty much gonna voice it out unless it's like a you know a random sidequest that doesn't have a lot of relevance um but people really like that because uh where where they couldn't fill the content where they wanted to in arr because i understand that was a tremendous overhauling task for them i understand why it is the way that it is um but a lot of people like it so i just that's i think part of why people like to watch me stream because i just i just voice everything yeah so and they're gonna want me to do it live on stream i'm not gonna do it so yeah sorry it's tough it's tough to do uh the voice act and you actually get to hear the real voice actor afterwards like when you're going into like the pre uh cut scene um but i mean yeah sometimes you like do a voice and you're like oh that's how they sound [Music] with this many compliments coming at you from the chat i'm thinking like you've always got a backup career as an as an audiobook reader right on the table you never know man maybe it's something uh maybe something to explore they're like you need to get a hold of someone at square nixon get your voice on i was like i don't i don't hurt i gotta move to europe i think though because i think that's where they get all their voice action i'm not sure but it sounds i think from they get it from like uh the british side of the voice acting everything i think uh because everything sounds really like new english right or not or old english like they try to get that kind of like yeah uh sounding i can do a little bit of that i could i could do a lit i could you should just if you ever come by my stream sure uh there's a lot yeah there's a lot going on i i'm i'm actually going to go back and look at your bots after this so uh i'm gonna make sure that i i see it but when you get into it so how the pacing of course is different going and experiencing it it feels a little bit like watching a mini little movie or something sometimes but it's not like as action-based you're really there for the dialogue most of the time uh yeah and i think that the way that they do the dialogue in this game is sick too like in world of warcraft you get a page another thing asthma goal talked about in this video so i'm gonna like take some things from him because he has he had some really good points it's okay you get like you get like a page of dialogue and it's like a [ __ ] paragraph and you just have to like sit there and read all of it and then you're like okay but like by the time you get halfway through you're like okay what am i what am i supposed to be doing i gotta kill ten of these okay cool and then you just close the quest window where's like in final fantasy it's like line of dialogue rebuttal line of dialogue like here's where we are here's why the uh amaljah are a big [ __ ] problem here's what we're gonna do about ifrit okay i'll meet you there and then world of warcraft is just like meet by the spire in northrend and you're like cool and then you just go there and you're like i'm here so it's there's a there's a a much different pacing to this game and i think it's i think it's much better because okay it in my opinion if you can't if you can't get people invested in like reading the story like what the [ __ ] are you doing yeah i will be honest when i first started the game uh of course i'm watching the cutscenes and i'm trying to read everything but uh this is my criticism towards my own personal experience with final fantasy 14 uh as a new player back in so long ago um is i had no clue what the hell was going on like i'd hear all these names and i'd hear all this stuff and i'm just like all right this name means something bad this name means something maybe good and it took me did you start after when did you start i started like uh 2015 i think okay yeah sorry so a long long time ago uh actually i started i started maybe um one patch after where you are right now when that patch was live that's when i started um okay it's been a while moose has been here for how long forever he's been here forever i i came into 14 straight from 11. um like i was playing him at the same time i was here on early access 1.0 i played all of 1.0 like a sucker because i believe the golden patch was coming uh it took two years to arrive but we were right hey dude so yeah it was i've been here forever that's how i got into laura was 1.0 like there was so much about it that was very difficult to enjoy playing it did not feel like an enjoyable video game but at the same time you could see that there were all of these things about it that had so much like love and care and perspective and just it had potential um so like trying to focus on the story because it was convoluted and hard to understand and had potential was the reason that i got into lore in the first place um kind of did it kind of you feel like it sort of forced you into that to an extent because of the way that it was structured it kind of made you kind of like slow down and really get into it we were still trying to figure out what the story of like your you know how like in this game you do like 15 levels with your city state there was something similar in 1.0 and we were still trying to figure out what the [ __ ] those quests meant after the game went dark like the game went dark and dude like it came out in 2010 it went dark in 2012 and we spent the six months the game or whatever however many months the game was dark trying to figure out what happened in the intro sequences we had like a thousand page thread where we just went on and on about this in their localization forum trying to get koji fox to come in and tell us what the hell is going on and that thread got so out of control that's how the lore forum was born they just wanted us out of the localization forum yeah so yeah like guys yeah damn so it's changed so much like as someone obviously who came in with where we are now just a completely different game from where it began uh i i would maybe it's a good time to talk about like the perception of a realm reborn because um you know going into it i i think one of my biggest struggles as a streamer is uh which like [ __ ] first world problems but um but is is hearing like a realm reborn is like boring or it's like a slog and it's like it's it's not the good content or it's like people just kind of really like talking bad about it and i know why i understand why i think it's because people know how good it's gonna get and they're like they're like like trust me if you think this is good this isn't even the good stuff so like just i've got stronger opinions on this topic yeah well it's just for me it's just like it's like as a new player i just kind of feel like be a little tr yeah i would say try to be a little more positive because it comes off like it's kind of draining it's like to constantly hear what you're playing is like not good or even if you're enjoying it people are like oh this isn't even this isn't good like oh my god such terrible this terrible that other like oh ar 2.0 omega lol whatever and it's like it's like guys as a new player like uh it's not perfect but i enjoy it and it and it it's fun so i am excited for what's coming later but i feel like the bandwagon has just come and loot come loose from the horse and roll down a hill into a ditch at this point like when 2.0 first came out we were coming from 1.0 and there were things that changed the graphics got a little worse they stopped using his intricate animations like they had to tone it down because 1.0 was so demanding on your system that it really locked out a lot of people from playing it yoshida gave a a presentation one time where he highlighted that just like one flower bucket in gridania had as many polygons as a player character and it was just they couldn't do it they couldn't do that and so when we came into a realm reborn we saw some of that but we were like what was on our mind was how is it the same how is it different how is it better how is it worse and we thought about that a lot so when we go into heaven's word and we see how much a realm reborn was rushed how much because they had to develop the entire game from the ground up in two in two years like they did everything so fast and that's an entire game world of warcraft can't even build an expansion in two years dude you can't even have another match in one year bro sorry thank you you get into heaven's word and suddenly you've got like everything is improving they're using their graphics in different ways they're getting creative with the animations the voice acting improves by leaps and bounds everything is better and then when you go back to a realm reborn again for the third time seeing the introduction of the story you get nervous you get nervous that people are gonna see the the rushed game design the iffy voice acting uh the um the fact that combat feels very slow until 50. like one to fifty is a tutorial as a black dude i understand the slow content you get nervous you get nervous that people are gonna quit on you before they see how good it is so you try to let them know you try to like manage their expectations like look we know this is a little rough but it gets better and i think that bandwagon like i said just everybody got on and it fell off the horse it rolled into a ditch and now everyone's just like yeah [ __ ] around reborn and it's like no let them enjoy no there are things about it too yeah yeah i mean and that's going go ahead no i just got to say i had a history of people who uh did go through that patch and the thing is i think they were just a lot of people who come into the game sometimes play just to play with other people and not play the game and so they run through a realm reborn and they're not really caring about like all this stuff and it just becomes a lot of stuff they have to keep skipping through because they're like i just want to play with my friend and then they see it as this big hurdle and wall and that's where it comes from uh but if you actually play the game to enjoy it as an rpg which this game is really rpg uh it's solid yeah that's that's and honestly like we spoke about earlier that's why i'm taking my time like there's just so much rpg element there so like i only just went to the housing district for the first time yesterday and that was that was crazy just to kind of see like that aspect of the game i went to uh you know in you know and that was interesting uh you know some interesting stuff goes down there um so like there's there's home there's always like little things to be exploring and learning about and i think um i think that what moose said really hits it on the head and i it goes back to what i said earlier about intent it's people that they just they really do love what is later they love heaven's ward they love stormbringer they love shadowbringers and they're so excited for end walker i definitely would agree with moose that it from my perspective the general interpretation is i just want you to survive through this because there's something amazing waiting for you on the other side of it and the way that that comes off to new players is not always the best thing because it almost feels like you're being told that the game that you're maybe going away from your home game for like wow for instance for a lot of people that's like it's kind of taking a leap man that's in a sense for some people that's kind of almost turning their back on something that's been a huge part of their life for five 10 15 plus years and there's a very strong deep emotional attachment there that i think a lot of people forget it's part of why wow gets so toxic in the community is because people are [ __ ] terrified that's what the problem is and if you had if if final fantasy was in the same boat and was having the same uh issues that world of warcraft was i guarantee you that it would arise in a similar fashion here because when people get scared they lash out in anger and that's that's what i think is happening so i try not to get too upset when people are trying to tell me in a sense that the stuff coming later is going to be better but sometimes just be careful of how harshly you talk about the new stuff because it can turn people away um from the game because they start to believe like they shouldn't be enjoying what they're enjoying i mean it gives you that sense of feeling like if you if i tell someone hey you should watch this show the first six seasons are crap but the last two seasons are great why would i watch that show yeah so i mean that's kind of yeah i don't want to waste six seasons of bad show just to enjoy two seasons but um yeah i think when we're talking about and by the way blizzard's deep in my blood uh i grew up with diablo uh warcraft 2 warcraft 3 yeah burning legion tattoos bro i get it yeah it was a huge part of my life i i if i did my i forget is it slash played or whatever play time or whatever you do with it it's years so i mean i it's the same for final fantasy now but uh i mean blizzard is huge and so i'm i'm i was very attached to uh that franchise and in my head things were just not going the way i wanted at the time that i switched over to final fantasy 14 but i love final fantasy too you know and that's part of the reason that brought me into it and i think uh that's not everyone but a lot of people have nostalgia for final fantasy v final fantasy vi final fantasy so and so and they can come into this game and see those little bits there and it kind of helps that getting detached from something that was a big part of your life back to something else that is still was a part of your life and growing up from the other final fantasy games and it makes that transit transition a little bit easier yeah so i don't know pyro did you play any of the final fantasies before yeah so actually so i've played i've played some final fantasy 10 um so i beat final fantasy 10. and i watched my older brother play a little bit of 10-2 i played a little bit of 10-2 but like time-based uh turn-based combat was not my thing um i think you can disable that but anyway i was also really young so like references like titus was i was like no [ __ ] way like when we got to the guy that was saying that i was like i know that like i know who that is like i i get the references and i i know ephrat and i know shiva and i know bahamut and i know anima and i know those aeons and summons from 10 that i mean back in the day like look at hold on let me show you this sure yeah i'm excited i have no clue what i'm about to see but i'm excited for it oh so i used to i used to draw a lot um back in the day when i was really young so this is like this is back then so this was i think drawn in like 2008 um uh so this is actually one of my oh nice and drawings yeah and uh here i got a couple more sorry this is uh leblanc from ten oh [ __ ] man you were good when you're back in the day yeah and then uh i have some like sora stuff and like king of the hearts and [ __ ] like of course king king of the hearts kingdom king of the hearts king of the hearts dude um we're talking about scary kingdom hearts it's like and then i have i love that you preserve it with enough joy that it's like in plastics i'm not joyful about my past and i feel like i'm getting to a point where i should be it's it's just like it's something that i for some reason kept on to for a really long time and the fact that i can like reference it now uh is cool and like that's that's kind of what i like about um playing 14 is unlike wow where i came in it's totally blind and i don't really unders i didn't understand any of the references or anything initially i see a moogle and i'm like i know what the [ __ ] that is yeah and like there's just um i don't know that is pretty cool i do really enjoy that so not a ton of ff in my history but enough at a memorable enough time in my life that it did have a pretty big impact on the games and things that i was interested in for several years yeah and what's what's kind of cool about the story with final fantasy is that it's known every single game's a different story and so final fantasy 14 is its own story as well but it's still going to bring in those elements that you love about the other stories like if you had a final fantasy without a mughal you're pretty much killing the game uh right i would be there the marvel dude yeah i mean they even brought in choco racing and all that stuff i'm assuming have you done any of the gold saucer stuff at all i've gone to the gold saucer and got my aetheride things but i didn't actually do anything there uh yeah and i haven't seen like joke about racing or anything maybe there's story there that i need to not spoil it for you but i don't think there is i think it's just the side content but anyway find out yeah well hopefully not hopefully i won't spoil anything but yeah well i mean one yeah i mean yeah it's uh so this game does a really good job of bringing uh all this like nostalgia theme park to you uh and you just have a lot of fun with it and wow they integrate every single of the world of warcraft story that they've done all the games before and they push it all together and i think they have so much to try to work through that might be a little bit more difficult if final fantasy has to deal with uh not to try to give credit to blizzard because there's definitely better jobs that they could do with the game story but um well i mean when to be fair like i'll give them this like when you do have so many different pieces of literature so many short stories uh we didn't even talk about there's a lot of audio dramas really good ones too um and then the just the the seven expansions that we've gone through um right bring crusade wrath catawad legion bfa one or eighth expansion um like it is kind of it that is a pretty tremendous feat to try to take that much [ __ ] and have it a lot of it much of it anyway exist in universe and have any level of like connection but between them so i would definitely say it's harder but it doesn't necessarily excu it wouldn't excuse still the big hiccups that exists right right that's yeah i don't know what got me on that point but for some reason i wanted to bring it up again uh i think yeah uh final fantasy 14 though going back to kind of the story and your experience so far you've liked it so far and going through everything the cut scenes are great the voice acting's great the way that they're presenting the story to you it's not so it's not overwhelming for you i guess that's one point that i wanted to bring um no i think that the way that they i feel like in final fantasy a lot of the times that i end up having like an inquiry because of us words because of a specific level of uh line of dialogue um i find that a lot of times where i i have that it's actually answered in like the next line of dialogue or like at the end of the quest and so i really like that uh world of warcraft does a lot of like you do the quest and you're kind of left wondering about the outcome sometimes so it's nice in final fantasy that you kind of get your questions answered right like some of the questions that i currently have um is like what's the difference between uh primal and an elder primal i don't know the answer to that yet i know that there's two they're two different things i don't know for what reason they're different um but i would expect that at some point in the storyline i'm going to learn that in world of warcraft if you want to know the difference between a wild god and uh and a loa like you really gotta [ __ ] dig to find that information you're not gonna be given that information on a plate uh so it's much different in that aspect and i really like it it just makes it feel like your questions actually get answered and you don't just end up with a [ __ ] trillion questions and by the time that you get to the end of it you're like i don't even remember what the first question was so that's fair um i do like that uh i do i mean there i do have criticisms about the game and we can please i'm willing to talk about yeah slightly differently yeah uh i mean i know that they cut a lot of content to make the arr storyline more fluid and faster for people i would say that there's definitely some times during like 2.0 where you can see where they did it it's very obvious where it happens and it's like man that's kind of like kind of ruins the immersion because i know that originally you wanted me to go do something else and i'm kind of like cutting corners here i did notice at least i think at least one uh example of dialogue that actually referred to the actions of the following quest which was then removed so then you're like you're literally told that you're gonna go do this one thing and then the quest that was supposed to follow you don't go and do it so you're like okay that's kind of weird i feel like they actually i have actually experienced that yeah so i wanna i would love to hear uh i love that i wanna replay it yeah i think that's in uh when uh after you go to mordana for the first time when you're going to [ __ ] you're like uh you're like meeting [ __ ] you're like a camp whoa you're like a camp where you're supposed to um you're supposed to like rally the troops and like make everyone like happy or whatever there's a quest right before you go up there to do that where the the quest guy wants you to go and speak to i don't remember the specifics but it's like in that area i can't [ __ ] remember what the area is called if i if i go on no i can't remember it's okay i don't i can't remember if i opened the game i could tell you but um it's either way but it's just just a little minor thing like that uh which again i think that considering as moose alleged to earlier the amount of uh can't blue frog maybe um i don't know what that is but uh it could be northern i don't know um right before castro mario i'm pretty sure that's correct uh anyway um yeah yeah i will i will say like i recognize and can certainly appreciate the tremendous amount of work that must have gone into completely revamping a game um when i when i first heard about it happening when that was current i was kind of um kind of baffled because at the time that was when runescape was actually starting to transition to potentially doing the evolution of combat which completely changed the game an overhaul that was not good but um it was it's it's been good i think uh there's been some times like fan cred when dan cred turns out to be like la brea and they like show his face i'm like i'm like and then i'm like waiting and they're like fan credit i was like damn cred i couldn't remember who he was i knew he was important but i couldn't remember and so that like startling reveal i'm like who are you so uh so yeah that that was an example of like just maybe a little bit of overwhelming when it comes to like how many names are thrown at you especially with like the diversity of the names in this game yeah they're hard to say half of them so they're hard to remember if you have some background in 11 it's a little easier because each of the races is named with a convention of one of the languages that the game was released in so the ellison are a little french the rougadine or a little german the lalafell or a little japanese like the katakana play um the huers are like the english so it's like there's little background to them but the way because they don't want it to be obvious they kind of fold in like these old school rules like archaic french archaic german and it really just looks like someone rolled their face around on the keyboard sometimes yeah it's so hard to read sometimes like i consider myself a pretty fluent reader uh and fairly well spoken and there's been times where i like read a sense and i'm like what the [ __ ] dude i like let's just move on it's not even important like let's just move let's just move on i feel like i feel like uh the writer every time jay speaks he's actually some of my favorite dialogue so far because at least with him it flows and pretty nicely for the most part there's been some other characters where i'm like is that even a a viable way of saying that like is that even real like a jail gaol i'm like what the [ __ ] i'm like don't call everyone in chat's like it's jail i'm like what there's actually that's how they spell it when they lock you in like a um like a quarantine when they want to like punish you as a game master like when they want to like drag you out of town for spamming chat or something they put you in a zone called morty in jail and it's not like that yeah that's like just those things kind of threw me off but at the same time it's almost it's almost good because it makes you slow down and [ __ ] read it because you can't just gloss through it like speed reading like you would in world of warcraft you have to actually read it uh so i really like that yeah the storyline was written by definitely like people with phds in english or something they're like i'm bored how can i make this interesting uh i'm paid for that creative writing degree and i'm going to use it every every 14 lines i need to use an old english term or phrase it looks like i'm on the 14th line so it's fun i i think it sounds like to me once you get to like heaven's ward and stuff is voice acted more often and at a higher quality you probably start to get more of that um like what you're saying moose of like certain races of people having like dialects and things like that uh do you get more of that as you progress and start to really hear that come out a little bit but only if you notice the pattern like if you know if you know that the ellis and have kind of an old french background to their language that like because the way that they tell it to you is that everyone in eorzea has kind of adopted quote the common tongue of the humor there's just so many of them it doesn't make sense to not speak it and that's going to be english even in the japanese version the common tongue of the hero is english um so when you start to realize that the patterns start to come out and when you see something in from like old ellison that's named french you're like ah but it doesn't ever become like really really deep like you'll go to other places and you'll see like there's another race the um the aura and you get out there and you're like oh mongolian okay and you start to see like some of the ways that it ties in but i don't think it's ever gonna be terribly lord deep except with the guardians and latin it's just like the matic instance and stuff mostly and kind of just giving more flavor to the world then oh wait no uh it just aorzi will be based on greece too there's gonna be like a lot of like tie-ins there you're gonna notice like there's gonna like it disappeared for a while like in 2009 they came out right away and just said aorz is based on like the greek city-states before the invasion of persia except here persia looks like rum so they were talking about how you know they have this very greek history and there were a lot of greek names and then it went away for a while but now it's starting to come back so you're going to see some of that too but aside from the the latin and the greek uh a lot of it's just it's kind of there to be a guideline more than it is to really stand out and be in your face that's that's actually part of why i like questing so much because now that i know that like the ellison are kind of you know sort of french like when i when i it makes it fun it makes it very fun to voice act because i can kind of become what i think that character would sound like and it'll be very obvious in heaven's word yeah so yeah there's a little listen in that patch yeah uh it's it's i'm excited for it because it's it's very fun it allows me to practice it's entertaining for the people that watch and it's kind of a nice way for me to like just kind of go here's a way for me to kind of like connect with the world in a way that's not it doesn't really sound like this but we can pretend that it sounds like this and it gives more fl more flavor and character so honestly i think that's been one of the biggest one of the things that i've had the most fun with is picking up on those hints and starting to like learn who's kind of from where and what would they sound like and and how yeah so it's pretty fun okay yeah hopefully that guides you a little bit with the fun with that like uh man chad is just like i i feel like we gotta hear some of this voice acting outside oh dude no it's still it's so like just do it on the spot yeah don't worry i can't voice act anything it always sounds like he's teasing people to come see it live yeah yeah oh you're talking hook them in on the real streams i can do do you uh yeah i know never mind no you're good you're good you're good there's other places to catch this content especially when you highlight that so much of your stream uh i'm glad you're enjoying that i think there is a handful of people who do enjoy kind of voice acting the lines when they stream and go through the content everything because it's just fun uh and it feels like a fluid dialogue that's you just have enjoy and have fun with it do you play a lot of d d by any chance am i just i've done a little bit of the dnd and and when i did i very much so got absorbed into the character which i was playing so i'm i'm not afraid to role play like i'm not i'm not afraid to get into that side of things uh yeah uh anyways certain kinds of role plays uh so on stream um yeah like i'm kind of into that but but dmv is uh it's very time consuming sometimes uh even if you just do like a quick pre-made campaign yeah um and so uh for me it's kind of hard to like hold my attention honestly i've i've adhd and so i need like a lot of visual and audi audi like audible and uh interactive stimulation otherwise i get bored from things really easy so if you don't have like a really good dm then it's not very fun yeah yeah um and by the way we're not hitting like really deep into the story too much uh just more of impressions and everything because i feel like i'm so afraid of like getting deep into it with the story you've experienced so far and i have the answers to your questions and just trying not to react to them yeah inside the chat chat does the same thing they try not to react but yeah i mean it's easier for chat not to react versus me sitting here for on a voice call or a video call with you but yeah true and there's yeah having like facial yeah facial reactions stuff like that like i'll say i do want to get into it on a deeper level and so i have notes i do take notes okay um so i have like notes for um how there's like one active and passive god of each element not primals each god associated is with a month it rotates astral through umbral from january i know what all the different gods names are and what they're associated with and um i know now that ishcard is run by an archbishop which i'm sure i'll learn about in heaven's word and so there's like there's little things that i've taken right um uh like asean serve the dark one one true god otherwise known as zodiac who i don't know anything about besides that but so i do take notes and and i i hope to get to the point where you know i can i can i can look at like the uh etheric table and know exactly what i'm looking at and you know i think i you know i want to have this conversation with you later on so much it's just like yeah like what what i've like what i've seen like the with the etheric uh thing is like there's there's astral and umbrella and it seems like uh water ice and earth are umbral and fire lightning and air our astral and uh like like they tone this down a little bit from one point where it was a much more big thing um i actually love asking questions about the elemental wheel because it really trips people up because they expect it to be like it's from other games um so there's there's a really cool graphic um i will send it to you if you've never seen it they have it in one of the lore books um that shows you how it is and yeah you pretty much like ashley and umbrella are supposed to be in all things so you know even though there can be you know astral fire and umbrella fire it tends to be more of an astral element where there can be astral ice and umbral ice but it tends to be more of an umbral element and they're gonna really shake up what astral and umbral means later to make sense like um when you were describing kind of the warcraft book where they changed the perspective of the whole wheel i was like oh he's gonna hate that but they're gonna shake up a little bit of what it means to make sense of what came before because they're trying to use old lore and make sense of old lore but at the same time it didn't totally jibe with what they wanted so they shake up a little bit of what astral and umbrell means because it was in 1.0 before we had light and darkness and to have astral and umbral play nice with light and darkness is difficult right so they had to find a way to tie them into it yes so they're gonna find a way to do it and it it's gonna require some reframing but they'll they'll explain it to you very clearly it turns out the [ __ ] all the umbral [ __ ] is not related to the darkness it's related to the light because it's orderly and everything's under the order of the light because it's very tough because they were already trying like the elemental wheel the way you're describing it it makes so much more sense if you know that it's halfway rooted in aristotle and halfway rooted in godai which is like the five elements of japanese mythology so like you void means something and you know they've tied that into it and it's just there's a lot to get but i if you're taking notes like that you'll be fine yeah that's yeah that's however that's where well how many notes have you made so far how how many pages yeah just one just one page of notes okay so it's not too big all right all right a lot a lot of it like i don't have any notes on the um on the on the elemental wheel i'll call it um the etheric wheel um but i i do retain a lot of that in my head uh honestly for most of the stuff that i do videos on for world of warcraft i don't have notes i don't have like video outlines or anything it's normally just kind of head scored um but this i felt like i really needed to because it's so new having like foundational notes that i can refer to i felt like was really valuable so okay yeah just take as many notes as you want i i'm gonna be honest uh i moose knows this and this is why i get him on the show and that's why he's on the show now i suck with the story in the lore in the game i i do i get it i try to get it on a base level uh like a simple simple person who just understands what's in front of me in the pretty images that are showing uh but having moves here kind of helps with that a lot and i think uh when i was going through the story at first i still didn't understand anything by the the time i was done with the first uh remember warren i i understood like basics oh that character is bad that character is good right that's kind of what i had uh and it took me a while to kind of dive into it until i start forcing myself to do these episodes where we talk about the story and lore uh getting this pumped in my head i'll let you know by the way pyro i don't think i've had a single episode talking about story or lore where youtube comments weren't like i wish frosty wasn't there because they always say rude i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna fight for you on this one because i feel like that's i feel like saying that is like hating on menphilia like so people just don't appreciate a good manager man okay and philly doesn't do anything she's you don't appreciate a good manager you take her out of the equation it all crumbles she like finally did something good which is basically just giving herself over austin's so good at like just maintaining a discussion and structuring it and keeping it going in the right direction and i love that he represents kind of the people who are just casually into it who aren't paying his deep attention because it makes it accessible for a much wider audience and to say that like oh i wish frosty wasn't there like i'm saying no there's a lot of people who would disagree honestly that was like a huge hurdle that's a huge hurdle for my videos honestly it's like i don't get like a ton of youtube growth because it's so hard to jump into that like you're at this you're at this like level here you have to know like this this this this and this type to really get here right it's [ __ ] overwhelming so it is it is probably very nice for some people to have someone who is more along the lines of their understanding of them yeah i can look stupid for them right and so that's that's kind of the hope uh and that's kind of the role i play with it and i just don't have the time to be an expert uh you know in lore alone i have all these other things i got to pay attention to as well that's really cool that you do that yeah i love it i love it i that's why i've been doing it for like six years i love getting people on here and talk about stuff they love that's the whole point um and uh sometimes i'm a little bit more invested for example i play paladin so start talking about that i care a little bit more in the ways of like getting into the deep details of it and my frustrations are a little bit clearer but you guys have done fantastic on this show helping me out and having these conversations because you're not just talking about like uh the story itself you're talking about the structure and building the story and how that affects everything else and that is a very important part of all this um and moose we we talked a lot about the wow uh way that they're doing all the story i think by the way when we get to the books and everything else they have such a business uh situation with producing those books that i don't think they will ever get out of that because that's just if they get rid of it then they're people are losing jobs right and so i can unfortunately that is true yeah yeah yeah uh and so i think it's a little bit different with final fantasy i don't know if they'll ever do books or anything like that that maybe they will uh but it keeps it pretty much in the game with a little bit of extra out there but the people who build the story and kind of how that was created and the team behind it because we we use these names like koji do you know do you know who koji is pyro when we say okay all right so koji moose could you actually you will say it better than i will yeah i can i can i can help there uh koji was the like the english localization lead for a while um and that's kind of how everyone knew him he was he had the name fern halls and he would come into the forums and he would tell us little like nuggets of lore if you've reported bugs so you're like oh you know you use this word but you didn't explain what it means or use this word but it's a typo or these two things are contradictory he would be like oh thanks we'll fix that and then he'd tell you a little bit about it so that's when we all started we all started going on this scavenger hunt to find things to kind of lure him out to tell us stuff and that's part of how the lore forum came into being because we were having those discussions in his sphere was part of making it that's so rad because he had he had the ear of the lore masters in japanese um and especially the lore master we have now is is amazing like he he's so deep and invested into everything and making sure that like he really wants everything to be consistent but he's also is that what kojie was a loremaster or no no he's he was primarily a translation guy so like everybody associated him with the lore for because he was the metatron of the lord god you know he would bring forward the knowledge because obasan's pretty shy and japanese people aren't that deep into lore as of back then so what happened was when they saw that we were getting all of this extra information from koji japan was like no you know we like lore too so they put a little left back i created this like feedback loop where koji like i i still joke to this day that koji masterminded this all on purpose where he by being a translator got everyone massively invested in this story driven content to the degree that square enix had to embrace it and i just want to see it keep going i want to see this feedback loop keep going to the point where like in five years i've got encyclopedia spira like that's what i want that's cool that would be sick like he's like the metatron yeah that's awesome but thank you for explaining i had no idea yeah and yoshida uh do you know yoshida i know who yoshi okay okay okay yeah he's a rock star that guy's that guy's just literally literally oh and he can sing his ass off dude yeah you can see actually koji sings to some of the songs too which is kind of funny uh like he's become such a huge part of uh the the square enix development team and he's our huge connection because he's a translator and we can speak to him and like he can voice out everything very clearly to the uh north american and european audience audiences uh which is the difficult part with final fantasy 14 is that it's not uh an english-based game it's made in japan right and so we have a lot more barriers to go through but he's one of those big connections that uh helps us with that and he's been amazing so that's awesome that you guys have people in your community that are like that unfortunately world of warcraft does not really have that anymore we used to have like we there's a couple people that are out there that will sort of put like super super light pseudo hints on on social media but it's not really anything that any anything of true value could be derived from uh and i think that that engagement with players is super fun there used to be a developer named um uh alexa frasier abbey who left uh i think actually last year no word from the company that didn't say anything about it he just left um [ __ ] he could have died and we wouldn't know uh honestly and that guy that guy was really into it like you got him in lore interviews and he would drop little hints all the time because you could tell he was passionate about it you could tell he really loved it and he loved the he loved the um the concept of duality you know and um and what exists between different forces right like how does the light in the void interact with one another and like yeah from our mortal perspective we see the what the what the uh void is doing and we see it as like evil and bad but in the perspective of the void like think about the how the light's oppression affects the universe and how they must see that and like he always had a way of bringing deeper thought to it and he's one of the reasons why i got heavily invested i'm gonna toot my own horn a little bit here so i hope i don't sound like a dick okay but i i really i really truly believe that in the world of warcraft community i helped to pioneer lore speculation content like people people didn't make youtube videos about what's happening in the story now and what's it gonna mean for us going into the future what is this little hint from here and here and here all connecting together what does that mean for us what does that show thematically for how certain forces of the universe work how different magics work what the motives and motifs of certain characters are so now you see when you go into the world of warcraft uh youtube the biggest creators are doing that now uh you have folks like talia's inevitable and uh and bellular gaming who are doing that type of content and it was fun because alex really inspired me to do that and i kind of brought that different aspect of the meta to the youtube community and it's been so [ __ ] heavily adopted that like everybody does it now and it's so it's honestly it doesn't matter if anything i ever predicted was was right it doesn't matter to me at this point i just care more about like i'm glad that we're at a point where people are thinking about it deeply enough and critically enough that these conversations can can happen because before the lore was kind of glossed over because of all the the issues that were previously all the aforementioned issues because of all those things the lore was kind of a thing that kind of just happened in the background for a lot of players and now the the story and lore is actually a lot of the reason why people are still playing so i'm really happy that that that dynamic shift happened and it just it's just what you're telling me about koji reminds me a lot of alexa frasiabhi and how his influence and his presence in the community um really shifted the way that things were looked at and i i wish that world of warcraft still had that because the people that run the story stuff now i i hate to say it but they're not nearly as fun that they're not they're not they're not as open they're i think they're writing in some of their own kind of fan fiction and where they want it to go and and it's just really lost a lot of its splendor that it once had so i mean that's fair uh and i think we have more people yeah if they could only you know have more people working for him uh and doing this kind of stuff uh i won't say dude yeah i will say content creators have such a huge effect uh on video game game companies overall uh because of people like you pyro people like uh moose existing out there um even if it's just on the forums and on mogtalk and gamerscapes uh ethernet every once in a while it's a lot of places ate the right radio sorry why did i mess that name up but yeah uh there's so many places where we have these shows and we have these people who are uh criticized the speakers of heidelen uh and also at this asher who's going out there making videos everything they know they have people keeping them in check right they know that hey there's people out there paying attention and they can see that clearly and so they try to stay in check hopefully but i guess maybe not with wow as much right but well with wow it's just like i'm not saying that the final fantasy story is not in depth or anything like that obviously that's not true but with how long wow's story has existed in its current line like they're they're i can't i can't i can't express how much there is there's it doesn't matter if you sat around and read every day like there's so much that you couldn't there's you could never you could never know even 80 of it and i think that there's there's so much context that's built up in wow that like unfortunately a lot of the people that are out in the community and in the viewership and stuff like that they can't fact check you they they don't have the information that you have because they don't have the book and so the quote that you're referring to in the book that's heavily important to the argument that you're making they have no idea they don't know about it so you have to educate at the same time as extrapolating and it's very tiresome um and so honestly like that's honestly that's part of why i don't do videos as much anymore because um i find myself having to reference back to old videos and old quotes and things so often because the community doesn't know like there's entities in this game that don't that that there was once upon a time this idea that they can't die the developers have literally come out and said like we should consider them dead but death is a state of being and it's not the end-all be-all people still don't understand that those beings were still killed we did still kill them they did still go on to somewhere else but it's something that's so heavily [ __ ] ingrained in the warcraft community that it's such the common perception that like the disconnect between someone who looks at lore the way that i do in the way that the average player does there's just no you just can't have a conversation because there's way too much there's way too much there okay so yeah we are hitting like kind of the closing part i mean we've almost been here for two hours uh it's been it doesn't feel like two hours to me but uh there's a few questions i want to ask and i'm going to ask moose to somehow generate a question that he wants to ask pyro here uh while i'm asking these questions uh first thing is go ahead no rush but no rush by the way like i know that i know you're trying to fit it in like we talked about but yeah take your time you sure because i'll say yeah for like two more days just like well we can't do that long but but you're good we don't we don't we don't need to end like right we're good okay okay okay uh well i do want to ask you this question i i do since you went through the story is there anything that has surprised you about final fantasy 14 maybe with storytelling or anything else uh yes okay oh yeah it's dark dude it's [ __ ] dark and it's so funny because like i i see comments on twitter like the game was like too kitty for me and had like too fluffy of an aesthetic i'm like did you [ __ ] do any quests dude because there's some [ __ ] up [ __ ] the first time i was in ulda there was a woman being sexually assaulted in the streets what like what is going on here like what the [ __ ] it is crazy dark i just did tom tara hard mode and i'm like oh my god like what is going on like yeah exploding head so that will surprise me people see the lalafells and they see like the cute cat girl stuff and then they're like oh well this is a very you know simple pretty game yeah yeah uh and so i don't think about all the dark stuff but if you re go through the lore and you go through the story there's some really [ __ ] up [ __ ] that happens you mean if you actually play the [ __ ] game you'll understand how it go like instead of just looking at the characters in the game and drawing conclusions it's incredible because back in the day like no offense i did use to say like oh that game's weep [ __ ] that's [ __ ] that's a weave game that's the terminology yeah i know i know and then i started playing and i'm like if you say that you're [ __ ] dumb this game is not a weave game like at all like at all dude like there's like this is so this is such westernized like eastern fantasy it's not even funny like it's i don't know it's uh but it's fun it's that i found that surprising yeah i mean it has the kind of art style it has a lot of stuff that you can associate as the anime weeb kind of thing but like really getting into it it's pretty badass uh i feel with the story even with just the surface level that i've been able to kind of keep up with and everything else um and i i'm glad you said that because that's what i love i love dark storytelling it's fun it's like you can't have it 24 7 like i can't get burnt out on it right you can't just always be dark because then you're like oh well i'm just expecting you to kill this person after they say something very nice right you just turn into like you turn dark you're like my life is everything is a lie and despair always triumphs over hope get dark eye shadow going on and everything else yeah uh but okay that's cool moose you would agree that the storyline is pretty dark i'm assuming yeah there was a couple parts along the line where i thought it was going to be a little darker and just because they'd primed me for it and it didn't it didn't end up being that dark and they came back from it a little bit but then there have been a couple parts where i thought it was going to go another way and it was just like now it's going to be dark so it's like i think they have a good balance of it yeah i mean i think i think a lot a lot of wow is like just a lot of there's like there's like cutesy woodsy quests in a while where you go like do just ridiculous silly [ __ ] and that's fine you know that's that's the kind of content that just exists in a game like that right we've yeah we've got that here to be happy at some point right well and then there's also like most of wow honestly is just pretty it's just it's just sad and it's just bad like wow is a game of tragedy really like there's a a lot of just really terrible things that happen to people in wow people that don't deserve it at all and not just because of your actions but just because that's how the universe works and wow it's just the the forces in in the game are cruel and dark really like mandrick's wife right oh man craig's twice no one cares where she is she's actually in shadowlands is she yeah she's in the realm of the dead you can find her oh my god all right uh i don't know if that'd make me play it but uh it's interesting i'm not gonna say don't play it but i wouldn't recommend it currently okay fair fair um so if you wanted uh wow to learn from something about final fantasy 14 storytelling what's the biggest thing that it could take besides everything right besides just like the biggest key that it could take from final fantasy 48. i actually i love this question because i actually answered this on my stream yesterday can i also answer the question the other way around please as well yes first off i think that something that um that this game has that wow just really fell flat on its face on was play around housing understand this i know that pohs in this game are not a perfect system the plot system seems so [ __ ] egregiously difficult to actually like buy a place it's it's like the barrier to entry is not even the money it's the ability to like actually buy a [ __ ] plot of land yeah that's unfortunate um coming from runescape where your player owned house is incredibly powerful in a gigantic source of utility and personal customization i really like that system but i wish that wow had like any form of customizable poh because it doesn't and it just is a really big rpg element that's mixing missing i would also say that the armor dying system in this game is [ __ ] sick and i wish that you could die armors and wow unfortunately a lot of the armors in wow aren't even like heavily three-dimensionally designed armors they're more like uh paintings on your character's body which looks like [ __ ] uh the armor in this game i think looks uh much more alive uh and and uh and i think that the dye system for it is is so sick dude i really wish wow had that um some things that i did that i really wish that final fantasy had that wow has the launcher please god please god dude what in the [ __ ] is mog station first of all that's one of the worst websites i've ever used in my entire life i feel like it was designed in 2003 and hasn't been updated since the [ __ ] internet got faster speeds in 2005. oh man if you only played 11. dude i'm glad i didn't probably if you if you if you were around for two if you were allowed around for final fantasy 11 mog station is like the second coming it's like the best thing i've ever seen from play online and the square enix account management system i didn't play final fantasy xi for two years after i bought it because my 13 year old's dumb ass couldn't figure out how to pay for it like i couldn't figure out how to give them money through their [ __ ] system so yeah i know this is like gold said that he had he delayed his [ __ ] he only spent like two hours trying to figure out how to get he's like you know what blizzard's really good at making it easy to give them money and he's not wrong make it really oh true yeah i mean i'm not saying they're good at it now i'm saying it used to be worse i'm saying this is improvement yeah well you just got to be patient with square enix like yeah the client i think from what i'm told is like a lot more like a lot of like other jrpgs so like the but the client for wow the battlenet client is fantastic like their software development team is obviously on their [ __ ] because it's it's very nice looking um and and to that point i would say also like the menu systems uh the menu there's a lot of menus in final fantasy and i don't play jrpgs that's not a thing for me i've never played bdo i've never played anything really uh other than final fantasy so when i see the menus i'm like [ __ ] me there is a lot of menus dude um whereas in wow it's it's easier to read it's easier to remember where menus are it's easier to navigate the menus um so when it comes to that part it is a little bit overwhelming there are menus that i have like logs that i've never opened because i just it's a lot yeah um so that that has probably been the most overwhelming feeling for me that in the map the map i'm getting the hang of because i'm understanding how the quest list works and how i can interact with that and make it easier to navigate the map but the um the actual the ui itself i think could could use a lot of work um from just from my perspective yeah okay no that's fair i mean like the big difference with that as well is that wow's ui is third party most of the time and uh because you get all these different add-ons and everything else to kind of change it however you want it to be and final fantasy 14 you have to stick to what they've developed themselves right uh yeah yeah yeah it's a little bit um but with the menuing and everything else you can't really even even it even i i think i'm gonna go ahead and defend something here a little bit sure i don't really like that the add-ons argument i think it's a little bit of a cop-out like sure i think that i think that when you play with the default ui what i said there still kind of stands okay because the menus that exist in the ui you don't get new menus and stuff because you install an a different add-on like it doesn't it's not going to give you a different character pain menu like it'll change the look of it right so thematically it'll look more like what you want but the character equipment screen those types of things as an example that doesn't change but i also you know uh you know i'm not afraid of modifying my ui in final fantasy i'll say i'll say that much fair enough fair enough yeah i know the and the big dif there's not really too much to defend with that because i mean there is stuff that they can improve upon and make it easier because it is a lot of [ __ ] uh i haven't done i don't i didn't i there's menus and parts of your menu i haven't even unlocked because i just didn't do the content yeah just like that's what i mean yeah and so uh there is a lot and i feel like it's gonna be hard for them to kind of mainstream all that stuff because i mean in the end you don't need it it's stuff that you can always come back it's not important to anything in the game it's just extra stuff uh so i'm not too worried about it but i mean with navigating getting used to it it is taking a s again a japanese game a japanese mmo and putting it into like something that uh is more americanized with blizzard which is like we're all used to it they know it's it's completely different and it's going with the mock station side of it again like you you already said it that's kind of a normal thing they do in japan for mmos i think is kind of how they have it treated right now um not the biggest fan of world of warcraft's website either i just want to throw that out there like it's better but yeah yeah no and i i've been in the blizzard launcher and i know i could buy stuff so easily and i could go through and do all that stuff really easy with that uh and it it's just goofy doing it for square enix and it's the biggest complaint it's the biggest complaint is how do i give money to square enix and not have to worry about it anymore that's gotta be like the in my opinion that's gotta be one of the most refined parts of the process like is if you can't get people into your game easily like that's the thing like as long as you can get them into the world that the world will sell itself that's what i that's what i would say from my perspective once i was in i was in but the process of getting there and purchasing the different expansions and understanding that how the free trial works and i unfortunately purchased the 20 game before i did the free trial so i'm paying for everything that i'm doing right now um which is fine like that's kind of the cool thing is people are like oh you didn't get the trolling of the trial like you know what dude i'm actually fine paying for what i'm playing i feel like i feel like i'm getting my money's worth out of what i'm paying yeah the game's worth the money uh absolutely uh so i'm not really too worried about that uh for telling if people did that i like go ahead and spend what was it like it was on sale and you could get all the games for like 30 bucks was it 20 bucks or something you get all the way shadow bringers everything depends i think through square knicks that's correct uh steam unfortunately did not have the same offer oh okay and because i purchased the initial version of the game through steam i just bought everything through steam so it actually ended up costing me like twice as much to buy it through steam uh but i still bought it like whatever it's whatever it was worth it all right i'm gonna make uh moose moose did you come up with a question at all yeah i i actually did i wasn't sure if i was supposed to or if it was coming around but just in case i wrote one down um there was one thing you said a little bit ago that's been that's kind of rattling around my brain ever since you said it because it resonated so much with me in terms of how i think about talking about lore with the community in this game you described maybe i'm projecting a little bit onto it correct me if i'm wrong but what i call campfire mentality which is you sit there and you try to figure it out and you all sit around the campfire and just have fun you try to interpret it right you try to archive it right you try to preserve it for the ages but the most important thing is the fun the being kind to each other they're sharing these ideas and it doesn't matter who was right or wrong it doesn't matter who predicted what or whether speculation planned out that we're just enjoying the journey together and building that knowledge base together so when you describe that it just sounds like music to my ears and i want to know my question is what are the chances if 14 keeps feeling like this for you to play that you're going to be one of the long-term voices at that table like percentage-wise what are the chances you're going to finish the story and we'll be back here bullshitting about you know end walker um [Laughter] let me put it this way if i continue to take notes in the way that i am and continue to have the interactions that i do on stream and if i get my hands on these encyclopedia books uh it's it's it's probably over for world of warcraft i'm going to be honest like really yeah i'm not i'm at a place right now where the game is the same [ __ ] thing every patch they've ruined some of my favorite characters the story continuity's gone uh their storyboard writers i think are on the wrong track um i don't believe in the company uh the company's ability to keep me happy i i don't believe i don't have faith in their ability to tell a story that i'm interested in anymore um i at the end of bfa bfa was such a [ __ ] [ __ ] show i i told myself and i told my community if they [ __ ] up shadowlands that's it you can't [ __ ] up the realm of the dead how do you [ __ ] up the realm of the dead dude it's thematically so easy to nail so honestly at this point like that's kind of where i'm headed i i can't guarantee it but like it's very pop the thing is because i didn't plan this like i didn't plan any of this either like [ __ ] my first my first videos were me teaching people how to play a warlock so i never i never planned to get into this so it's not something that i've thought too much about because if i get there then i will be there i i will have arrived i was i was going to settle for like 50 i'm looking forward like i'm proud i'm proud to be sitting here with you it's a pleasure to meet you i'm loving this conversation but at the same time 50 was enough for me to be like look i'm looking forward to seeing you again and while i'm i am rooting for wow to get its [ __ ] together i'm rooting for this thing you love to keep being a thing you love i am i'm looking forward to another conversation with you someday yeah it's been it's been very nice chatting with you i'm glad that one of my probably my really my first introduction to another creator member in the community is someone who's super into lore i think that's very fitting and it's been a lot of fun and i i i certainly appreciate that you can kind of that you can grasp and understand like the angle that i take on certain concepts and trying to break down the universe in the same way um it's super fun so i think um i think that honestly like you say 50 50 at this at this rate it's probably more like 70 30. like we're we're well on our way and i haven't even gotten to heaven's ward so that's kind of that's kind of where we're at we'll just have to see uh because real life could always take a turn as well you know right i do i do work a full-time job and stuff on the side as i know that um you know how that work life uh and and hobby balance has to be so we'll we'll see but i think it's there's a there's a decent chance yeah um there was something else that i had uh planned and i was so invested in moose's question there because it's like oh [ __ ] now he's he's gonna force him and pitch and hold him into like saying oh yeah i'm gonna come to be part of the lore community for final fantasy 14 for the future um oh god i'll remember it uh at some point but i i think it was really awesome to get you on here just because i i i didn't know what what to really expect other than like the community's perception of you and lauren store and everything else and as soon as you said that i was like i know i know exactly who i want you to talk to i know exactly the kind of conversation i want to put together for this um and i think that's a game that had come up in my stream so i'm excited that that's ended up being who it was yeah yeah i mean there's there's other really big uh people who are into lore and everything else of course i can't get all of them on and they're not always all available at the same time but yeah uh yeah there you go hit me there we go that's the easiest way to do there you go um i don't want it there's another question i had i don't want to finish up what was that other question let me look at this real quick it wasn't even on the sheet um [ __ ] it i was going to ask viewers to do questions but i'm so afraid of that to let you know because i i don't know what they're going to ask anything questions yeah um yeah i don't know that could get a little hairy i think uh well one one thing that someone said that i do just kind of want to touch on like yeah this look like oh god i don't want to get in trouble here sure don't don't take this anyone in chat like don't don't take this too personally because when i said it on my stream some people got some most people understand but when i i did go back and play wow uh a couple days ago and playing the game it is i'm sorry but it is so much more responsive and snappy and feels like it actually it feels better to play like and i i hate to say that because i like the world building and i like everything that's happening in final fantasy but i can definitely feel it when i'm playing final fantasy where like i'll cast something and i go to hit like my ogcd and i start to cast another one of the same ability before i actually can hit my just sitting at the stutter step to [ __ ] stop the cast and then ogcd it's really [ __ ] as someone who did really high-end content in world of warcraft and expects that [ __ ] responsive snappiness when i tell my character to do it you do it uh final fantasy does not feel that way and i really hope that end walker brings some kind of improvement to that but i heard that it's like netcode and spaghetti code and stuff that isn't easily fixed you know that's my biggest complaint about the game is it just feels kind of sluggish and unresponsive but you get used to it yeah i wish i could tell you that you could look i wish i could tell you that you could look forward to like big changes in that department uh usually they just they find ways to improve kind of the flow of it but really like it's it's probably going to be that your hippocampus adapts to feeling out where you're going to be in 200 milliseconds rather than yeah that's about what it feels like it's about 200. that's about right yeah i mean that's the best where my that's where my hippocampus is is about 200 milliseconds in the future but like you start it's almost like being like pre-cog like you're moving in advance of knowing where you're gonna be and know slide casting and stuff and like i learned that i can make you that changes before them yeah yeah i i and that's the way that it's you know what i mean like runescape works on a system of tick rate and it's it's literally just server ticks and every single action and ability happens on a tick and there are things in runescape that are incredibly difficult and hard to get used to because of you have to really understand ticks and how to manipulate them in the game so i'm sure i'll get used to it it's it's just it's my it's my only like big technical gripe where it's like uh i feel like to really push itself to feel like the most modern mmo that it could i really feel like that would have to be addressed uh because playing on hardware like what where we have available to us nowadays like you know i'm a little elitist in this aspect but i do kind of expect a certain type of performance out of the game that i'm playing but yeah at the end of the day if the other things outweigh that which they certainly do so far it's not that big of a deal it's just something i wish would be changed but it also makes it fun because you can learn to like slide cast i just learned that i can slide cast as a black mage with ethereal or etheric manipulation i had no idea that i could that that was ogcd and i could use it while casting so like or at the end of a cast so like there's i like the nuance of that i like the individual challenge that actually comes to light because of how the game works um i'm glad that that's at least a thing uh i think that makes it at least interesting i mean that's what it is you get used to that and you figure out the art of playing around it and being optimal with that uh it's not perfect in the terms of the netcode and that's why people when we talk about pvp people aren't happy with it because playing that way in pvp it doesn't feel as good you have to get you you really have to get used to it there uh and it's yeah uh but with uh pve you really do kind of uh get into it i remember my question i wanted to ask because before the show you were telling me stuff about how you were really into like hardcore rating and like you're like top top top raider uh back i used to be pretty good once once upon a time yeah uh the thing with final fantasy 14 and its rating scene is that you don't have to be in the rating scene to be a part of like the in-game rating stuff because it's you don't you need eight people that's all you need eight people and you you just dive into the content you find seven other people who are good at the game and you compete in the world race you don't need a guild you don't need backing you don't need anything really crazy you just need [ __ ] sick yeah and it's and the the savage world races are so quick they last about a day to two days okay so it's something anyone can invest in the ultimates take a little bit longer but it's it's it's something that anyone can really get into if they wanted to and they wanted to be highly competitive you take a couple days off work and you're there yeah i mean i'd like to check it out because uh like zonro said when we did um uh ultima x midnight level no echo like i basically we blind frogged that and and i basically called for the raid and it was super fun like i think honestly that's why i had so much fun that was an asp i mean realistically that's why i got into wow the first time because i wanted that high-end competitive i wanted to kill the baddest of the bosses and i wanted to do the hardest difficulty and i and i did and it just took way too much time uh in world of warcraft at my peak of raiding we were waiting 20 25 hours a week we were raiding five days a week five hours a day and we were 25th in the uh in the us and 100th in the world on that kind of schedule and part of that is because you do take a 25-man group and you um you have maybe 10 players who are really [ __ ] good you probably have like five players who are like super [ __ ] good at the game you have probably like 10 players who are really good at the game and then you have like uh five players that are like you know like they're pretty decent but like they're kind of your problem players like that exists in most middle end guilds and end guilds once you get to the top top like that's not as much of a thing because the skill gap is so [ __ ] small between those players um but the the the uh the prospect of savage rating and especially ultimates are highly highly attractive to me yeah because there were fights that in world of warcraft were 15 minutes long and you play perfect for 15 minutes or you all die and you would do that maybe 400 times there was a there was a boss that i fought mythic killed jaden we spent of pull time we spent 26 hours of active time against that boss fighting the boss physically and that that just burnt me the [ __ ] out because it was right after another boss where we did 490 pulls so it was like a thousand attempts between two bosses after the initial eight bosses before them four of which were aids also so like in wow there's there's less personal responsibility um low all 20 only 26. this guy has no idea you have no idea yeah only 26 hours you know imagine yeah imagine fighting something for 26 hours straight just you'd want to kill yourself don't do that yeah yeah you have so it's 16 hours is like the max if you're going hardcore in in in the time that i told you that's just that's just rating that's just time spent in the instance that's not even counting all of the [ __ ] you have to do outside of it it's a job dude it literally if you want to be a top end mythic greater in wow it's literally a [ __ ] job and you have to you have to cut other parts of your life if you want to do it it's not really like that at all for this game it's so much more exciting thank god yeah because you get the gear that you need at the same time the patch happens it can be crafted within like you don't even need that gear to be honest with you you can get most of that gear pretty quickly uh right when the patch comes out so you could have no gear at all and within an hour or two have all the gear you need to competitively go into that but i mean you're already an hour or two behind but you can get pretty far yeah that sounds that just sounds nice from a time investment standpoint because that's the problem with wow you log on and you feel like you you're forced into doing like five different things that's going to take you three hours and and in final fantasy it's nice because i log in and i'm like i'm just going to do what i want to do yeah yeah um and also everyone in the world race scene is friendly no one no one's a jerk or [ __ ] and it's not it's not really that's not wow no one has sponsors no one has anything like it's very just much like uh kind of a humble community really maybe somebody has a sponsor but you know i don't know wow wow toxic as [ __ ] i'll just say it dude wow it's a hell of dude the high-end pve in wow is among the most like i can say it because i literally used to be a dude like i got i got kicked out of a guild one time because i was too toxic and that was like a top that was like a top 100 raiding guild and that was years ago right so things have changed but that that setting has a lot of [ __ ] really [ __ ] mean people dude and you just gotta you gotta like keep your nose out of [ __ ] because people will people people like people in wow are could like they'll [ __ ] ddos you dude like they'll well [ __ ] yeah dude yeah yeah people will ddos you they'll ddos the server that you play on oh yeah that is a thing especially in high-end pvp and wow it's [ __ ] up dude there's a there's a lot of toxicity in the high-end things and wow it's especially mythic plus dude and it's just gotten worse and worse and i hate to say but it's because blizzard designs the game in a way that perpetuates that type of attitude so it's unfortunate but that's the way that the game pushes people to act so until they get that figured out it's never going to get better yeah anyway one more thing on the world race uh the one cool thing about final fantasy 4 and of course i love the world race stuff because that's what i do but uh is that it is a world race everyone starts at the same time and you don't know anything about the fights before like there's no alpha wow or like like beta that you play before you get into it you go into it not knowing anything about the fights and that sounds oh god damn it i'm [ __ ] uh in world of warcraft it's not like that there's there's public test realm yeah there's you can get in there and test bosses because blizzard won't pay internal testers like high quality i don't know why they don't i don't they're stupid anyway um because they definitely have the money uh bobby codex 100 million dollar bonus um anyway sorry uh all right so uh in in that game and then everything gets uh data mined so everything uh all you can see all of the mechanics for every single fight before it goes live on the game you know ever you know everything with the exception of sometimes the end bosses of certain raids will have a hidden mythic phase that's um that's encrypted so it can't be data mined and it adds a totally new phase and layer to the fight that you have to you have to see it to plan for it um so that's nice however uh yeah that's that's that was easy i mean there is there is some stuff with the rating scene where data mining exists but that you don't get that information until the patch drops like they can't even start investigating yeah that could yeah it comes before the patch and wow and not only can they data mine like fight mechanics and stuff they can data mine cinematics and story stuff too so it's it's all dude data mining oh i'm gonna i'm gonna make this is a hot this is a [ __ ] nuclear take here data mining should be against the [ __ ] rules data mining should be against the rules of world of warcraft it should be data mining should not be a thing it spoils half the [ __ ] you're gonna see you get to see the zone before it's out you get to see all the spell abilities you get to see all the [ __ ] lauren's story spoilers it's terrible i i wish data mining was against them i i'm 100 again you can't stop it because like if someone does it they have the advantage but no i think almost everybody would be happy if it would be impossible to date a mine because then everybody's on the same level and everyone gets the exact one except wow head because it's never mind that's good it's the only reason people go to their website i'm just [ __ ] around that's good the way it happens here is you have about four hours the patch goes live you download the patch for like three or four hours later it comes up and during that four hours there are people rushing to data mine stuff and you can you can get the story you can get the new armor there but but it get because of the rush it gets quarantined in this little bubble of people who just really need to do it in that four hours for some reason and now yoshida's like look if you want to do it that's that's good for you you great for you but if you use it to spoil other people we're coming for you like if you're ruining the experience of other people we're coming for you so like there are people who get banned it's like using parser it's like using parsley if you're using if you're using a parser to improve your own performance they're like world top performers that are streaming with their parser up but they're using it to improve only their own performance but if then you go into a dungeon and you're harassing someone about their gps you're gone like he's i like that a lot dude they're very oriented around making sure that you just don't ruin other people's experiences yeah i and i i actually [ __ ] love that because like i think that it's a couple things happen i think it makes me think more critically about my class and it makes me kind of think like how do these abilities actually interact with each other it's not really about how much damage x or y does it's just more like how what's this energy and how does it flow exactly it's forcing me to really uh draw a deeper understanding of my class than if i could just look at a meter and go oh i'm doing good damage it means i must be doing it right uh dps meters in wow are almost required for like any content that you do it is it is the most commonly downloaded add-on in the entire game as a dps meter and it's [ __ ] toxic dude it could be i used to be hella toxic with it like i'd go into a raid and i would do in a 25 man raid i would do like 20 of the raids damage because warlock's [ __ ] op and i would like go in there with like max mythic gear and just flex and i'd like link link the damage and like there's a purple bar at the top it's like 20 warlock and like everyone underneath and it was toxic it was toxic like why you don't need to [ __ ] do that and so i'm glad that my experience so far in ff has not included that uh it's actually made for really enjoyable like dungeon and uh and uh uh what what's a trial experience is because i'm not worried about looking at the [ __ ] meter i'm worried about like when do i need to am like like am i swapping my uh etheric alignment properly like so i think it's a lot a lot more fun and that's a good experience going through the game and everything else i mean when you get to high-end writing people they're like what else do you care you care about your damage and you're like hey and there's ways to do it but they don't encourage those kind of add-ons and everything else they they don't want that in there but when you get to a really high-end stuff uh a lot of that's just what it is people need it yeah i mean if you're trying to min max an ultimate or a savage raid like i think being aware of how much damage you're doing is obviously right that's that seems kind of almost imperative to me it would kind of be shocking if they didn't use them yeah so but the game overall doesn't care to support that type of stuff so they don't include it in there but yeah and i'm i'm totally cool with that i yeah all right well i know we went completely off tangent here but i wanted to at least steal you for a little bit of that conversation yeah i don't know um so i'll i'll say we can go and wrap it up now because we are 23 minutes over that two hours i mean i feel pretty bad now but um it's all good while wrapping up i do want to go ahead and give you guys both a chance to say any kind of shout outs or where people can find you and everything else or anything else you want to say you know as the last party message of the conversation uh and i'm actually going to start with uh pyro pyro if you don't mind all right if you want can you do uh your last bits here yeah you've done it before my last well it's just a shout out i mean like just based on the conversation that we've had i the only thing that's really on my mind is just a shout out to everybody who's joining in for conversations like this who who's kind of focusing on the joy of what it means to play this game and be a player in this game and welcome new players to this game not spoiling stuff not you know being a dick that we're just sitting around having fun and finding ways to do that so like that's who i'm shouting out to today is everyone who like contributed something to that today yeah absolutely and moose you don't stream you don't do anything you just kind of hang out on forms [ __ ] on twitter and answer dms on discord and write for gamer escape and talk in the forums that's pretty much like i like again i just ended i end up these places by accident yeah but there's his twitter if you guys want to follow him please that's like the the best path i think to get the moose at the moment i followed you but i i muted you so that i don't get spoilers no that's the right that's the right choice just in case that's probably a great decision like a lot of my twitter is [ __ ] posting but spoiler [ __ ] posting so no i fully support you yeah okay when you're done you can unmute them and have those conversations once we get to it yeah but uh pyro if you wouldn't mind any last words shout outs and more people can find you all this stuff yes you can find me at uh twitch.tv slash pyromancer it's pretty straightforward i'm in the chat hi hi hi hi um you guys can find me there i do have a twitter as well which is twitter.compyromancersarg that's s-a-r-g i yeah if you don't mind throwing that in there um i do tweet about world of warcraft and some final fantasy stuff like when we get screenshots of new bosses i put them on there and just kind of you know sometimes [ __ ] talk wow and say good things about final fantasy that's good um i would say uh thanks to honestly anyone in the community that um has made an effort to be um like moose said welcoming and inviting and kind uh i found my first day in final fantasy running around just because i had a sprite icon people would give me little things you know not people watching the stream but just little stuff um people are just super nice and the fact that uh that we're i'm able to come on here and talk with two people who are pretty well established in this community this early on and that i've had the success streaming this game that i have and that all in conjunction with the community has is just it's an experience that i've never had in any other setting um not in runescape not in wow not in any game ever uh and so i just wanted to say thank you guys for that uh streaming and making youtube videos for a long time for me was hard emotionally it was mentally taxing i i wasn't feeling uh inspired or anything but playing this game and getting a new fresh experience with all of the people that have made that possible has been one of the most enjoyable and will become one of the most memorable experiences for gaming ever so thank you guys uh for for being so awesome thank you guys for having me on here um it is an absolute pleasure and an honor and um i look forward to seeing you guys around more that's absolutely that's the plan right now anyway yeah i'm gonna be encouraging you for the rest of your existence to keep playing through so we're gonna do more of these shows because you've been amazing on this show so thank you so much for coming on and uh giving us a chance because i mean when i ask people that come on mock talk and they don't know when you're someone ask you randomly come on your podcast you're like do i want to do this it might not be good maybe it will i don't know uh i'm glad you understand i know i know i'm glad you uh gave it a chance here delightfully surprised i i did have a good time i um appreciate the the loose format and and it's it's been really fun i i've been on a couple podcasts for world of warcraft and they were not fun you know you really you know yeah i mean there was a time where like i was with someone in the host was literally messaging me on skype while i'm in the middle of explaining something telling me i need to hurry up and get to the next topic and and that's a shitty experience so don't ever become so [ __ ] full of yourself that you're that guy no uh but it was really fun so thank you to be honest with you my theory behind it is having a good conversation having fun with two people and if people enjoy watching it great i don't care i just want people on the show and make it into a good time yeah hang out and yeah i like it yeah but guys we are going to be back here next week as well i know we're doing a lot of wow conversations too uh because i feel like that's an important thing to have that kind of it's just a big conversation uh and while we're waiting for us to have already kind of been at the end of the story line and all the patches and everything else we have five months before we get a new uh bit of story within walker so we're kind of uh finding these different pieces of conversation to have oh only five months huh five months oh oh i would have taken five months no problem instead we got nine that's okay it's fine uh but yeah no and we're gonna have more of these coming up in the future um uh i do wanna let you know next week we are having a conversation i'm still putting that show together but i do know it's gonna be about again the final fantasy 14 community and how they're kind of treating some of these uh refugees and other people coming in uh which we have jesse cox coming on to talk about that sub yeah he's an awesome guy he was in our chukka boat race that we did uh not too long ago for charity um nice and we might have some other people coming on as well uh but i'm holding off on that uh until we get that confirmed and then um yeah that's that's about it you guys uh follow the channel if you wanna see more of this stuff follow it on twitter frosty tv stream i don't care i care more about the guests than me uh you guys uh i have one little patreon credit video to show and then after that we'll host somebody or we'll raid them or whatever we do and i do want to do a special thanks to a few people of course uh andre kane from let me use his music at the beginning and intro uh and the ending of the show and also my wife kerr who does who puts up with me doing this every weekend and wasting uh you know a couple hours away from our weekend together and then uh all the mods and chat all the viewers everything else guys all have a wonderful time remember be good keep cool stay frosty and when i do this everyone has to wave and say bye so pyro bye say wave uh it was actually a lot of fun to learn about the new player experience and everything i just wanted to go ahead and thank you all for watching and i also want to go ahead and thank some patreon supporters we got and uh first there's a few few communities that support the show it's ocmorne and that's a great place for learn and raid stuff and then there's team craft great place for craft and stuff then there's fade temperance it's a great place for doing competitive pve stuff they have an event coming up just in like uh less than a month almost it feels like it's so cool it's around the corner and then we got some really cool people also helping support the show dude and centonio d fury daniel h megan c nami psyche and tag now now we got the show uh is is over now we got some credits to play uh you know i'm hanging out here uh near the moon and i'm excited i'm i'm real excited to see you guys here in just a few months so you know be good keep cool and stay floppy [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] you

Channel: Frosty Mogborn

Views: 61,615

Keywords: MogTalk, FFXIV, Final Fantasy, FF14, MMO, Talk Show, Video Games, games, twitch, frosty, frosty_tv, shadowbringers, expansion, raid, savage, extreme, patch, pve, wow, endwalker, shadowlands, pyromancer, anonymoose, lore, story, new player experience, world race

Id: 4QhHaVgyNwM

Length: 152min 10sec (9130 seconds)

Published: Sat Jul 10 2021