Milbert Brown Oral History, 2017-03-29

[Music] this is Levante pew with the ball state african-american alumni or history project I'm here today on April 4 2017 on Ball State University's campus in Muncie Indiana to talk with Professor mill Bert Brown about his life and experience here at Ball State professor Brown I would like to start by asking where and when you were born I was born in Gary Indiana yeah August 12th 1956 and and could you give us your parents names my parents name were no Bert Brown senior and Mary e Brown was my mother and did you have any siblings yeah I had two siblings where I had threesomes actually one this was the C's that by his eighth month of life Cameron was my next brother and then my the middle brother was Cedric and the last brother was Marvin all last name brown Oh last name brown and so I want to ask what was it like growing up in Gary Garrett was a very unlike what it is today it was a very vibrant community experience I remember going to when I finally well my parents let me catch the buck or catch the bus by myself gonna go downtown you can walk in see your sandwich you could smell the Spanish peanuts there was a store called Lydon's it was a high-end store we used to go in there sometime again my mother would buy our clothes for Easter and special church events and then there was a store called gold blacks and we just like to go to Gold blacks because they had a lot pets down there was like in the basement that's what he sold pets and I remember one time behind a turtle I'm gonna small turtle they had like little new lizards and snakes and all kind of crazy looking animals and it was seemed like why remember was a little darker than what I think they put 40 white bulbs down there because it was wrong was dark and dingy looking and my experience in Gary going to the palace and the state theatres at the time you know there was no internet and you didn't have DVDs and there was no bootlegs oh you you had to go to the movies action movies and I really enjoyed that experience going to the movies with my brothers and my cousins I remember when we went to see jaws by the time I was in college but we went to see jaws and it was a big thing we used to do when we would be out for break in high school or you know in the summers we used to go to movies all the time and it was it was a really great experience I remember the jacksons you know actually one of my cousins was related to one of the Jacksons was my cousin it was Michael Jackson's first cousin so I remember playing with the Jacksons when I was younger of course my mother told me that but you know they lived across the street from my cousins and Joe GI Joe Jackson had a sister named Lulu and he was dating my uncle Ike and they had a baby by the name of window so basically I'm really connected to the Jacksons uh my cousins my older cousins - neato my cousin she's much older than I am they were good she was big cousins with rebe and I used to jump rope together and then Jackie was because my brother my cousin Jeffrey and they used to be in the back of the little small house and it was drinking gin one time and Katie called him and Katie was Katie was Michael Jackson's Kathryn but we called her Maya I called Katie so Michael Jackson's grandfather used to go to my aunt's house my estrous house every day to drink coffee in the morning and see my other Ashley wasn't like the little neighborhood gossiper so if you want to find out any news you would go to on Esther's house and I was very I was crazy about on Esther I guess I don't know is that how I got in journalism but she was great she was a fantastic storyteller sometimes it was it was true and sometimes it wasn't it was fiction and nonfiction so that was that's my experience in Gary so that's what everybody always asked me oh you did you know Jackson yes so when the Jacksons really became famous they would go to this area call this place called Sonny's den and Sonny did Sonny's dance was a lounge on 12th and Grant at the time I lived on 13th and grant we moved and I remember walking past that several times now the Jackson would perform I guess in earlier before before the other performance would come on but I certainly I couldn't go in there because I was too young but I remember walking past there are a lot Sonny's Dan and Gary dado on 12th and red Street so give me a lot to go on there right and so with that would it be fair to say that growing up your family was extremely family family-oriented it seemed like you had a relationship with your extended family and friends yeah I grew up with a very caring sharing family environment we didn't have I didn't have any problems my father and mother emphasized for me and my brothers did to get a very good education my father didn't graduate from high school and he wanted to be a pilot and he could not go to officers training school because he hadn't graduate at the time you do graduate high school you can you know officers training school so he could not be a officer to become a pilot and that was in the Korean War era funny story he's one of his sons and young son became joined the army as a ROTC cadet and he grant and he retired as a lieutenant colonel so even though my father only achieved the rank of Corporal his youngest son achieved the rank of lieutenant colonel so that is a story in itself and did your father serve it all my father served in the Army in the Korean Korean War era now my mother went to she was both my parents are from Mississippi and my father my mother was it was 12 of them and she was the oldest and my mother was sent north to get a better education she was always child she was you know pretty smart and so she was going to Okolona College which is a boarding school at the time in the south they had a lot of boarding schools that were part of high schools that became junior college there was also junior colleges so she went to boarding school there and one of her classmates was a famous Pulitzer Prize writer William raspberry and they grew up together but she ended up coming to Gary and attended Fredo High School and graduated from fraida high school and then she went back down south to you know to go to Oklahoma Junior College and she started there and of course she had 12 12 siblings 11 siblings and my grandfather and grandmother of course was struggling on the farm so she decided to drop out of school and come back to Chicago get a job and with send money home make a long story short one of her her younger siblings ray-ray Vernon Blanchett was noticed the struggle that she had trying to get to school and doing things and he in my family he is uh he graduated from the University of organ at 27 years old with a PhD so that's phenomenal so so he said really the education bar for the rest of the family out of out of my first cousins my brother has a doctoral degree and my one of my first cousins has one out of the 17 cousins and so you know he set the bar for a lot of us when you know have graduate degrees but you know the factorial degrees in that first first first group the second generation primarily so basically like I said we all my mother and father emphasized education I went to Ball State in 1974 majored in journalism certainly I wasn't a Rhodes Scholar but I never was on academic probation I've never had any academic problems you know I was just I would I consider I'm just an average student you know I wasn't Fulbright fellow I was very good in what I was very good at journalism but I had a few little problems in this class called biology it's trying to be I wasn't really very interested in those classes so of course I didn't put a whole lot of tremendous effort in them you know but I graduated within four years two academic majors like I said no problems at all Ball State was a great experience for me educationally my brothers both brothers you know like I said one has a doctoral degree other one has master's we all have graduate degrees so you know what my mother father you know emphasized with education for us and she knew that my father knew that that we would have a better life and so we're gonna touch on your journey to Ball State in a second but I want to backtrack just a bit back to Gary and just sort of back to your formula fears and I wanted to ask how major of an aspect was religion in your upbringing well my grandfather was a Baptist minister from Mississippi so now you understand that you know we went to church all the time we were members of Metropolitan Baptist Church 1920 Broadway and my mother was a Sunday school teacher and my aunt was the was the superintendent of BTU Baptist training Union and my father was a trustee so we went to church all the time that means we went to Sunday school and we was the regular service and then we went and there was if it was a special service that three o'clock or something we went to that and then they had what it's called broadcasting Gary like a Christian Valley they had a broadcast a radio broadcast like in the evenings like 8 o'clock and ours time so I was nine so we were if I if we did all our homework and we want to hang out his teenagers together in between BTU I forgot BTU was at six o'clock so we had bt was like kind of like eating a Sunday school from six o'clock to basically 7:30 and then maybe maybe eight six five to eight and then we hung out you know going to cross the street to get tasty ice cream and getting hamburgers greasy hamburgers then we talked and then we were sometimes we would go over to Christian Valley and hang out with the kid youth there and then with Christian Valley was - - my two blocks away and then we would have you know the broadcasts if we stay for broadcast so yeah I guess religion playing a tremendous point of emphasis in my life throughout my life and now so when I tell people and say welcome brother Brown you miss church this Sunday I said if I don't go to church for five years I'm good on the church I went to Nigeria I said I'm I have role of what it's called rollover minutes because in church church attendance I don't have to I don't have to even go to church for like five or ten years and I would still be five and you know like that told people I said you know they're not taking attendance when you go to heaven you know I said you know as I tell people you know I always give them a little joke I said when you get up to heaven see we want to all have to stand in the line it's gonna be alive for custon a life or you know if you did something you know cheating on your wife it's gonna be alive for the act and everybody's gonna be in some line I'm a being alive for cussing some material I'll cuss all the time you know but so there will be alive when you if when we get to heaven so so nobody's perfect I don't believe anybody's perfect everybody makes mistakes and people say things that they shouldn't say you can't always watch yourself because you as a human being you emotional and when you're emotional you may kind of go off the deep end say things that should not be said hopefully you can control those things as a person alright and so you mentioned a couple aspects of course mentioned the church broadcast and you mentioned your art we so it was sort of the gossip center of neighborhood in my correct yeah yeah it was a nest she was the gossip girl she was a Rona Barrett the black Rona Barrett of Gary Indiana and so and so I wanted to ask going into Ball State were would you have considered those as reasons that you might have pursued journalism no I wanted he the reason why I presume journalism in the second grade I was young I was quiet I was really quiet I was not really bright remember I say bright I mean I was just very average or maybe even below average because I was introverted and I didn't say much and I was a slow reader I was not good in math it was nothing outstanding about me at all but I had this teacher and her name was Miss Piggy I don't know where the first name was Miss Piggy made me the classroom reporter and she did this thing I guess to now I know to build my confidence and when I was a classroom reporter my first story was about John F Kennedy John Fitzgerald Kennedy he was new president and I knew everything about John Kennedy and I knew what school he went to Harvard I knew he went to Stanford at some point I knew he was a swimmer he was a Navy sailor so I wrote the story about John Kennedy and so I rushed home to tell my mother and father that I want to be a report I want to go to college and become a reporter so I knew then and like most people at the time everybody want to be an engineer and being NASA and of course I got contaminated with that I thought I was gonna be a preacher my grandmother was so happy and I was not a preacher thank God and not an astronaut I think the direction of my life as was was really basically tailor-made for me being from a very vibrant and loving family I was a good storyteller I could always tell stories really well so so that's essentially what I am I missing his storyteller and that started him from my upbringing in Gary Deanna and when Miss Piggy gave me the opportunity to be the second grade teacher now my chant motto how it got how I came to Ball State University and of course being from Indiana I really I kind of wanted to go to Howard University places where I teach that funny thing now but how it was $10,000 in 1974 Ball State was 3,500 in Indiana was 3,500 so you'd make the Tribune you know we didn't come I didn't come from a rich family I considered going and I applied to three schools Ball State was one of them are you I got an IU in Ball State and Lincoln University I'd never did anything back I'm waiting here see if I got in 4050 years later and that was the plight there because my family after they migrated from Mississippi D mu D st. Louis and Lincoln University was one of the oldest black journalism schools so that's why I was considering going there but I ended up choosing Ball State for a number of reasons my high school journalism teacher went with the ball state so she was very influential for me coming I received a scholarship I guess it's like a scholarship when I was at high school from the Gary newspaper Gil that's the newspaper in Gary - Gary post a meal for me to study journalism at Ball State University for two weeks so of course I was you know I was gonna be a writer I was you know in feature writing or something and I kept seeing all these people with these fancy cameras and I said I want to learn how to work with those fancy cameras all those numbers and it's kind of fascinating I had been experimenting taking photographs with my little Polaroid imagine it with mice to raise or my poems so I had been experimenting with the camera thing so my teacher that I didn't know from Gary from Westside sent a camera to Ball State for me to use so my first roll of film was clear was was was messed up second roll a second second day I won photography photo of the Oh day second I want third when I won for the other day so I was I was really good at this and I was I didn't know if I was gonna just you know concentrated in writing or photography but that's why I went to journalist school is not an art school and I remember seeing this film about this very famous guy he kept using this real fancy word photojournalists and this person was african-american his name was Gordon Parks and read his book and he was a great writer in addition to a filmmaker and he called him this Renaissance man because he was multi-talented and I said I want to be like that I want to be you know multi-talented so I came to Ball State my first job working at the Daily News I worked as a payslip assistant from 6 o'clock to ten o'clock and then I was writing and although good writing jobs were we're gone to pay because the upperclassmen had those so I wrote some stories for free and then they say hey if you've been a photographer will pay you we need him photographers so I started taking pictures you know like really taken before the paps so I mean I was able to her horn at school and I was glad I did it of course you when you graduate from college you don't just graduate because what a set of pictures a lot of people think if you major and certain things the journalism you know and you see your photography you just took a lot of pictures and he you know and you probably graduate but I was not one of those people I really developed my my journalism curriculum to a level of I was a pretty good writer I was also a photographer and a pretty good designer and I've worked for newspapers as pitch editor and photo journalist but I write way more now than I ever and I can write fast and clear with a lot of description and emphasis because I had the visual background I can pre-visualize situations mentally this is part of being a filmmaker or anybody's visual they can look at things let's say okay why should write it like this and because that's what this character would say you have a certain something in your mind that that can push you to say things words when I write now I can write with ease and real passion because I have that that that clear vision visual the concentration that I can visualize what when a person would say and how they would say it and then when I'm interviewing somebody I understand in a more deeper sense of their own personal analogy as opposed to what words they tell me so I can I can pick up a lot of different things and I think that's because of you know experience and and just doing this reading the professional law but I think because of our training in visual journalism it's made me much more powerful in terms of being a storyteller because storytelling now is is is changed from just the written word only to video and people tell stories in basically 30 seconds to two minutes so you know and of course it's nothing wrong with it it's important of the stories out of the New York are very important but people look go on the web browser and they look for stories to be told to them in 30 seconds to you know through the web browser or through Facebook Facebook cast is you know there's a lot of comments and some of the comments are clear and comments but sometimes just a lot of viral gossip but those videos those videos some of the videos not all of them some of the videos are very storytelling and you know you can get a lot out of those videos and that's where that's what that's what what has happened from what my era of beginnings in journalism to where he is now and we're gonna come - we're gonna come back to a few of the points you just made I want to clarify something you mentioned you mentioned an influential high school teacher in a journalism class assuming our Westside do you remember that teacher his name okay what's two well one was my journalism teacher was Mary Jo mu ha and she was the graduate from Ball State that kind of you know maybe pushed me a little bit to go like I see that Ball State was great experience I I mean I thought about how you but it was like think sixty thousand people so I want to go to a little school only twenty thousand you know people so it was a good it was very it was a good decision for me also high school teacher that was very influential in my life was Eugene Stewart and he was a photography teacher so the journalism teacher and a photography teacher the the two areas in which I majored in or had emphases in were very influential in my life and so now we're gonna we're gonna head to I'll say you sort of already talked about what led your choice to go to Ball State now once you arrived there I guess just in general what was it like living in Muncie and I'm Ball State's campus well it's just like any other thing it's it's you know you just gonna have to be away from home and your mother's not father's now you know it's not like I had a bad thing to put me in a cage and lock me and didn't put water anything it's just you just own your own you you're growing up we are in southern Indiana which is the home of the Ku Klux Klan Hammond you didn't want to run into you know I noticed when I was coming into town that all of the restaurants in wall at Walmart's and all that stuff when I used to come down that road it was all fields and you didn't want to be in those fields that lately you know it's not that anything happened but the possibility of something happening was was possible or once was was thought about Muncie I remember Muncie at the time I lived here in Muncie being a little small town there was a african-american community and we had like little parties there we used to go to and there was a church or some churches which we kind of itching it too I don't do a lot with this Muncie community but I do remember experience and seeing they ever living here at on campus it was beautiful experience I can say you went from home you got friends you established friends you know young ladies now you know hey you know so it was a whole there was a different vibe I mean it was like being a freak you know you know I got involved in a lot of different things while I was here on campus you know I had some experience in athletics and you know a place of fraternity but it was a great experience I had some great experiences but I didn't I always would the type of person I was gonna graduate I remember graduating from Ball State and taking a year out and then coming back and going to graduate school and something about saying undergrad friends were still here in undergrad I said well y'all the eight year plan you know so I mean so you know just opinions and like I said I wasn't like a Rhodes Scholar I was just an average you know above average student some things you know so I don't know what they were doing is just but you know when you having fun you know you get kind of caught up and believe me I like having fun but I don't want to stay here to have fun forever so I trying to get out of leave the ball stay as quickly as possible and did you stay on campus the entire time or did you live off campus except well I lived on campus my freshman scene my freshman to mid junior year at the time they had some quarters and not semesters so and then my last part of my junior year I decide to we got our apartment called 400 and we were basically we're happy to get that because of like professors lived there and was a white fraternity row nobody black lived over there and it's not saying that we were better we just I don't know still I still to this day don't know how we got in there I guess they were desperate or something anyway we got in there and we it was a sweet place and I would tell people I said we have we have established a level which you know we were I was like Martin Luther King and Jimmy and Bob we have opened up we have open things up for black people who live in certain areas I said we've gone but no man has gone before I never remember forgetting saying that so we lived there 400 and guess what we lived there for like three months unless I got a internship in Gary at the post reveal and our son led my area out and so I get a call from my roommate saying that he was going back home a little back with his mother and he was getting out of the part I said what do you mean you leave an apartment I said that's what weed supposing we'll so we ended up of course lose my deposit like I said right now I don't know how we got in there I still don't know 30 years later how we didn't even let us in there we had no credit we had nothing we just I don't know why they did something he was desperate so we lost the place so I had to come back down here and get another room here at Ball State so my senior my whole scene you guys stayed off campus and do you remember what how you lived in I live in Clevenger Hall and they're La Follette but they they gotta tear down about I'm told so I'll go over and see and just look over say bye yeah all right and whenever you mention the four hundred apartments because actually live in that area yeah you live right on fraternity row you don't man the power alpha all the big pattern ease the white patterns I had houses there and like I said we were just went over Omega and we were living there and the brothers was there all the time hanging out I hate it down because they would eat up all the food we had like they're you know had like some juice they drink all the juice I come back home started like living never live with a bunch of cuties that's a that's the walking story or fraternity brothers in general because they don't eat up and drink up everything you got and they say oh that's all right you know frat knows you know it's okay you know so it's best to I what I've learned and live on y'all and you know you don't live with you even though you have stuff in common you might be crazy about also you can't study around them because they'll want to go somewhere and do I would have to like disappear I would disappear from the um who told me anything wonder where I went I was at I said I'm trying to graduate that's why I think y'all won without you start partying it's fine you know but you know everybody has to have a certain direction when you come to college you should have as much fun as you can but you cannot let the fun take over while you here eventually while you are here for the beginning cannot let that take over so I want to unpack a few things from your your college career Ball State but one of which is your involvement with The Daily News and I know you mentioned they you started out writing for free and then you eventually went to photojournalism within that and and from what I've seen you've covered everything from sports to religious evangelism to just quite a lot of things and someone to ask what did you think it was I guess how did you feel being a part so much of a part of Ball State's campus life for that time I mean you were you were there you might not have been a direct participant but you were there for quite a quite a few things on campus well on campus as an african-american male certainly there was not many of us when I say many of us that were I think I looked at the institution of the Ball State stats about the number of African Americans here from 2016 to 2017 and percentages is only 7.6 out of some 21,000 students over the course of the five year period it is increased to basically 3.2 percent from from 2011 to 2012 over five year period so there's not a lot of african-americans here there's there was not a lot of African Americans at the time that I was here it's probably maybe about the same I think if you wanted a social life you had to be affiliated with one of the fraternities and sororities or you had to have friends that were relate you know you didn't have to be a part of the membership but you had you know had to be part of that culture that means the parties where the finished eternities and sororities you know had the parties the best parties so you you you had to go to those things even in the athletic athletics you just played and you went you know you practicing went went went back to doing but as as socially if you want you you know be involved in the black community here on campus it was a fraternity to sororities now another thing certain to certain even diversity on the black in the black community when I first came here I was living in Clevenger Hall and there was not that many you know african-americans on the dorm and certainly I became friends with some of the guys on on the dorm some I remember very very clear and certainly I wish I could find them because there was they were characters but I remember you know being friends with some of them and we used to go to down to the cafeteria together and I would think that about it you know buy black friends doing one side and you know be with them and cuz I went down walk down with them so I mean I would do that you know some sometimes I said come on let's go and sit you know my other friends you know wore black and he would scat so I noticed that and I said if they're not good enough to sit with my friends or black I'm not gonna sing Willy with them it's not because I'm trying to make some you know some some point it's just this was 1974 that easy you know we were basically 10 years away 10 years after a public accommodations where we can go with clean clothes in a bathroom I remember going to Mississippi where we couldn't stop and go to use the toilet facilities we got to use on the side of road so I was John I mean I was younger but I mean this was public accommodation 1965 so I felt that if you you know if you want to be my friend you can you know black-white I'm not gonna make it's not making any any choice to see if you you know so basically I mean my culture was you know African American they were my best for heads so I would I would think with all the brothers and sisters you know and that's not to say that I couldn't have any white friends I could and I would go to things with them but you know it was segregated and it should've been but it's probably stealing like that right now you have to be a strong person to understand segregation for either for segregation of volunteers segregation you have to really understand and it happens it it's happening and Yale University of Missouri this is not something that's that's altered since I was here this is now it's happening right now my daughters are at the University of Pennsylvania you know top Ivy League school she's at Wharton School of Business they have they have our problems you know even if they're up a challan schools so it's not about what school you were going to so how much you paying it it's about the people and your perception of people and we have to really I think really get along with people you're not gonna like everybody I don't like all white people and I don't like all black people there's a good black people in there's bad black but it's good white people this bad white people so you have to pick your people your friends do what you know they good or bad you know so nobody no one races all bad or all good you know this that's there's problems with everybody but you'll be surprised how much how much how will not really so I'll be so pretty similar not different at all not very different you just think there's a perception that we think we're different but I probably do the same thing most my guys still go home and watch TV and cut the grass and do all that stuff I mean you know I'm not deaf I don't have any different stuff than I do from anybody else I don't think maybe I do maybe ship in a movie or something I don't know but I don't think it's that exciting and one time I had an exciting life you know a more vibrant hangout out take you know James Bond type lifestyle yeah I had one of those like styles I'm just I'm just a little gritty God now old you got now you know kind of like Walter Matthau who watch the math now so you understand do you want to explain that all Walter Matthau is a it's an old actor Commission see a white guy who was always complaining argot one of his main co-stars journey was Jack Lemmon and they were great team and they were he was just a basic type guy that you would see and as he got older you said you can see you I would see I'm acting like Walter Matthau so you know he's just so you know a very good actor well I was going to say you mentioned that to sort of have a full social life at Ball State you had to be a part of an organization and you you pledged with Omega sci-fi Len and and of all the things that we have documented about you your role there and what that organization was about isn't really well documented so would you like to well the road is it the road I was just a historian and I took photographs and wrote a few stories Ball State chapter was not we died out it died out you know at the time Kappa Versailles chapter was bigger when I was serious like fifty brothers and Ball State Cuse was maybe it became 1520 later I don't look at I think people it's just like going to college when you play gin fraternity especially african-american maternity your two years of work in a fraternity it's not does not make you it's just saying you got initiated there and you did a few projects but your real role in terms your development of an Omega man or in the Delta Sigma Theta or 0 Phi Beta yes after you graduate from college that means you work in the community black the black black society is more centered towards African American patterns as Rory is working in the community after they have graduated now some people don't feel that way they think that they their two years at Ball State for my two years at Ball State from 76 to 78 if that's my only experience in Omega stop I have a very limited biopic experience I'm now the editor of the International magazine which is a bigger experience a big broad experience you know I'm talking to national officers that's officers you know I'm communicating with them so my experience is way different from just some undergraduate that only had a year and a half on campus so it's it's that is not a very good barometer to saying that you know about a fraternity so you don't know anything it's just like you say oh I took a chemistry class when I that Ball State now I'm up for the then the Nobel Peace Prize or well I mean that's a Nobel Peace Prize but a Prize for chemistry you can't compete with the people at the University of Chicago these are the top-notch chemists the top snot physicists they have PhDs they're not worried about what they are to their two years an undergrad was about see if your maturation process is only it from your junior senior level that's all you're gonna ever be that means you have a embryonic initiation to what what you got involved in it means it's just the beginning and that's it we I'm at this level now that's the I know that when I was down here you know like I said you should be involved if you can fraternities sororities if you like but you should not let that dictate what you should what your life will be forever when I emphasize that people should get involved in fraternities sororities and if they like and and then do something afterwards but there's not gonna be a lot of documentation about what one particular person did because especially on this campus it's not like if you plants like if I wouldn't went over in Alpha chapter Beta Chapter wears a long story history that somebody kept up with because they didn't but here it's not like that in a W at a PW eyes you know there's not a backing system now do they still have the Student Center this that students in a special program cells I believe so I think it's right across the street was that was right across the street should yeah if I'm if I know what you're referring to it should actually be right behind the students right behind the Student Center now that was a place in which we as black students kind of commune together a lot of times it was a point of meetings you know that's what we we were certainly the Student Center and in there there's a small place it was much much area to go to I wanted to get a couple other things clarify uh so when referring to fraternity members you called them cues is that yeah cuties so babies yeah okay so that's anonymous and then I wanted to ask you went into this a little bit what factors led to a mega sci-fi not surviving on campus if you if you well I don't really know what happens people either it's some kind of sometimes when fraternities of return of the sororities fade off campus it's either to one or two things is hazing and which they they basically put them off campus and they like the nutrition of the they left everybody all the members leave and then they have to restart it the chapters back up to a graduate chapter I think they have three four top three three brothers and Omega here now so I mean it happens this end W Twi you know what once undergrads have to really realize this hazing thing is a problem you cannot be hazing people you go to jail for hazing somebody put your hands on somebody it should not be some kind of slave sling type mentality or putting another man if I thought it was important and it helped then I would feel I was a proponent of it does not it only demoralizes the person it puts people that are lesser men in you know in the earth authority position which they should not be in the first place because they simply only follow us then there's this there's very few leaders a leader needs of follow up follows and what I don't like about returns and sororities from being in them so long there's too many followers there's people they have to mimic what somebody else does because they think that's what they should be how they should be you know the Kappas have to have to serve a certain profile cuz it's a perception they choose I have a certain profile when I play when I play your off I let me tell you the reason has a clear reason why plans don't make a sacrifice clear reason most of us we from from Gary we want to be Kappas campus had the best parties they had this the beautifulest women everything they had the best of the best and we all want to be capped me enough Kappa side I looked at it and I didn't like it but all my friends are flunking out my friend one of my my friends on the football team he said man let's play alpha I don't know about being out for Dave you know so I was doing a lot of things with the bus pretty fraternities runs as a freshman I was taking photographs for them and one of his cues asked me so whoa you know what to consider thing by pledging you know coming the smoker so he asked me I went to the smoker and I didn't look back and the reason why I thought about pleasure cubes because they had the highest grade point they had the highest grade point all the black black attorneys they had was third and all of attorneys white and black on campus and like I said I wasn't planning to leave here there was no question that I would couldn't go back to Gary dan out to my mother's house and said I flunked out for whatever reason and I wasn't taking any chances I said it's cute I said it's a little rough I'm told you know it's it's it's the harness but that's not my plan is cute and it was the best thing I ever did my personality is like that you did the crazy stuff like anybody else my Bob found out my cousin's I have 10 consonants that are Q's 10 so Y legacies you know I don't know what they was Q's because we hadn't reached our damn family reunions we start when I asked you know but Omega South I was it was the greatest organization that I have ever been a part of it developed me for to be a sensible man it developed me for strongly to be a strong leader it made me think about perceptions of how the mission of eternity should be portrayed so it was a it was it's a great attorney a great organization now there are there are some problems yes there's some things that happen to do that though Megan's new I don't condone that own life and all materials and sororities have those very same problems so it's not just one but and in terms of being Omega this is great I really enjoy it and get initiated the Ball State was the great was a was a great development part of my life here at Ball State and now my life after Ball State a little bit more on Omega sci-fi you referred to her as a PWI yeah PWI is a predominately white institution okay all right and so you sent us a photo I was from a Jabberwock week of it do you yeah do you talk about what the change and stuff yeah and I wanna know if you could sort of explain what was going on well that was uh that was in the Student Center and certainly I was I was one of I was not in the fraternity again I like I emphasized I used to photograph a lot of fraternity and sorority events and their stuff so it was one of those events I photographed and I think that photograph ended up in the Daily News I think was in the yearbook and it was just so the fraternity was stepping you know what we call simply called stepping and you know cues always had real exotic stuff which they do so we we would it was not week because I was in fraternity member they had chains oh and they were jumping around of course I did as after I became a cue I had the experience of having to change all this pretty very heavy turn around and swirling around and stuff but I remember us when we got ready for a show we would start practicing for two months out like almost every night for our to to be to make it perfect the queues at the time they may not be now but the time we were here I mean we took great pride in our shows you know great pride and everything was was was precision move you know we had this little thing what we did some routine with the chairs in which we move the chairs it was something to see I mean we were again I don't know what they're doing now I'm telling you what I was here it was a great great time I remember we seeking Him dost gospel Decapolis and made by one of my fraternity brothers we were always trying to win your David Kappas girl kid Kappa kids they call at the time so we were detail it would be mad at us but yeah it was a it was a great rivalry with the Kappas in the queues because we you know we were some people that they wanted to pledge and then we decide the players queue all of a sudden and we were so arrogant he was to tell them that you know we were arrogant we were like out you talk about how we talked so much you know it was just you know just we never was like you know I think the queues had this business this perception that they were quiet or they had one girlfriend and then we just study and go home not us I know I'm new to saying how we were at the time our era it was a great great time you know I'd say I don't know what's happening now but at the time I was here that little time it was it was one of if anybody could anybody would tell you well you know as they say in the contemporary Annapolis we ran the yard in that particular time period wasn't long but we had we had had a beautiful time all right and so just to switch gears a bit but sort of back to your work with the Daily News you took photos on E on a panel covering the meaning of black identity and well I'm sure it wasn't something that was intentional seems like what this panel covered became a theme throughout your life in your career sort of going along with your experience with the fraternities and your experience later on so this this panel as you may as you may remember had several black students from different backgrounds sort of just discussing what they thought it meant to be black and so I wanted to ask you at the time how I guess how relevant or how portent important did that events seem if you if you remember it at all well I can't remember that particular event but I do remember going to things symposiums and conversation in which that happened multiple times I can't remember that singular event but I can't remember different times in which we we talked about being black and our identity and how important it was and how important it was for us to be part of the community after we graduated some of us were serious and some of us were not as serious or didn't understand total meaning what it was to again become a leader so you just don't leave just because you say you just because you get elected president that doesn't make you a leader there's a certain ingredients for being a leader it's not being like I said it's not the position it's the way in which you walk people follow great leaders and they follow them for reasons because they know how to lead as opposed to your person that knows how to follow and in this these symposiums on these conversations were basically developing us as leaders to understand so we can understand what it meant for us to live and work in the community after academic career Ball State and so just to just to sort of come back around to the question you gave background on it that I still I guess from your own personal experience what do you think it means to be black could would you be able to I guess quantify that in words what it means to be black is it's like any other person or any other person race or ethnicity is to be a total and whole person a complete person a person that has a certain level of creativity and understand their place in life in history to be a credit not only to just the african-american race or the white race but to the gym human race and if you do that then you will be part of a greater whole you know we have to look at total universal acceptance of all people that's the problem we happen now we have a problem with basically well this person is basically going back to 1939 Nazism well you were talking and against a group of people Jewish people and then what happened in moving and where people were killed six million were killed now we talk about another situation where we talk by Muslims I'm not losing them I have friends that are Muslim you cannot discriminate against people like that and expect to be considered a great leader or be totally involved in the development of the human race now I'm not saying that we don't have problems and in in in either in any particular structure but to discriminate against a whole group of people because they're from a certain region of the world and they just happen to be Muslim is a problem with me it's a major problem in it's discrimination there's there's no way to paint it any other way like I said it mirrors parallels 1939 and Hitler so always they act like him though well his perceptions his way of way was control control he like in the deal you have like you don't have a George gurbles like we had in Nazi Germany you have the press or a person that's controlling the direction of the media what's being put out and using Twitter a way of you know just being deceitful to go to the American people there's a problem you have a problem just for the record mm-hmm of course you mean president Trump crow yeah I mean President Trump and I don't I I thought that he would not be I would be a better person would be a better leader but I mean I mean I grew up I came to journalism school in 74 it looks it mirrors Watergate and mirrors Watergate Watergate was in the early 70s oh I was thinking about journalism I'm looking at water game Amira's water game the corruption the cover-up you know so it's a problem and you spoke about how I guess current times I'm mirroring past he talked about of course our president mirroring Hitler in 39 and he just mentioned of course Watergate mirroring now and I want to get to that but first I want to talk about your involvement with another publication on campus but you think it's important to that end point you were involved with the black voice yeah the black voice was a smaller what I think was in again if my my memory is somewhat hazy you know I can't remember every particular point but I believe the publication was part of the special programs and they asked me to be the photo editor so I would handle some of the photographs I remember having one picture in a particular on the cover and it was a picture of Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee his great it was a great picture I still was still have it but it was really it was a real intense tight picture of them together Ruby Dee and Ossie Davis came to Ball State for one of the plays that that was performed called reason to decide of course and so no it was pearly victorious it was one of the two I can't remember kiss I'm a little hazy but they came in and they spoke remember Nancy Wilson comes in here Bill Cosby was a lot of people used to come around come to Ball State you mentioned it that publication was small but I think it I think it definitely had an influence and so my question is do you think that your work both as photo editor but just in general the black voices the black voice in general do you think that that was integral to shaping or at least portraying the black Ball State students experience in that time I think it was important and I think it was important because so many times in publications in that era when that early meant there are seventies there was not an emphasis on minorities in general there was no emphasis at all we got we must realize and say well why you know why would black people why did they want to just be separate and we've not separate because we want to we have we have to have our organizations because we have to in 1975 there was the first year in which they were able to let black females part of the Miss America contest was not it was after 1975 we had we used to have the black America contest where we had our young smart sisters part of you know showing their beauty and intellect they could not get into Miss America pageant's this is this is in the seventies so let's let's not be clear we have to have organizations or institutions that help us push forward I'm at a historically black school now as a professor how we put out some of the greatest minds in the world it's a doctoral school they put out more stem cell graduates with PhDs anybody in the country that's that's one of our two institutions certainly fraternities the sorority which I've emphasized is one of our institutions the black press the black press is one of our institutions if you not would not have been for Robert Abbott Robinson stack Abbott in the early 1900s they're mean I've been a number of people that came up from the black migration it was the the the Chicago Defender they used to put the papers on give him to the Pullman porters and they'd take him down south and people used to read the paper and then sitting around the countryside and it was basically talked about jobs in Chicago or in the north and they could leave yourself and that's that was one of the pushes for black migration it was one of the influences certainly the influence a small influence in a smaller scale the Black Voices there wouldn't there was no emphasis of black people being featured in The Daily News or stories that was there was not there was no where was I mean basically we we didn't exist and I think what what they were saying at the at the special programs houses so let's have a publication and then we could put in it was one guy I forgot his name D was from the editor he was a very black nationalist type person and he was a very good writer and read a very opinionated his voice will not have been heard in a more mainstream publication like The Daily News it was just forced when did I be heard so it was important for him to - for him to be in the editor and work nope put out the the the the black voice newspaper and his name was a Demetrius Harris yeah D we call him D right yeah some kind of brother yeah I've read yeah and and and I wanted to talk about those because there are a couple things one of which I suppose maybe considered smaller but of course to the black community on campus it's probably quite large it was a persistent housing issue that the D did write about the fact that landlords in Muncie had either unethical unfair discriminatory practices you mentioned that of course with the four hundred apartments how you were surprised that you even got in there I met the president at the time didn't necessarily make a definitive decision on that do you remember that time at all I don't remember that that particular issue but I do remember being a black person looking for places I don't remember it is being reality facing look for two two apartments two or three Bartman's and we went to four hundred I don't lie still to this day I swear I have no idea how we got to the four hundred I still don't know how we got in there if I apply to get in and out front you can get it right now so I don't know how we got in there but yes they will probably are discriminatory practices at the time sometimes that is because your students in general you're not responsible and sometimes it is because of you know your your heritage or your culture they people don't understand students are students they ëpeace be pizza and drink beer all the same you know then I have wild crazy friends they got some nice quiet friends but students are essentially the same so I don't know where the places they were looking at but the places I applied to gather guy got here there's no problem all right that's my personal experience right right that's all I can go by all right and a second issue was now I'm not brought up by by Demetrius Harris but it was written to him from a Muncie community member a Otis J Edwards the third who worked in the personnel department in Muncie Indiana and this person brought up sort of a list of grievances that the Muncie black community had with the Ball State community and I think it sort of relates to the idea of a blackness he definitely mentions it in his art in his letter and I want to go through those points but before that do you remember this at all did did this sort of come onto your radar yeah I don't remember it in you know particular sense but I do know there was always some kind of resentment from the Muncie community to the people black students at Ball State because they thought they assumed that we thought that we were better than they were some of us were better than they were because some of them were just plain thugs and bumps but we didn't walk into the musty community thinking that we're even we just thought it's being a black community when you get a haircut and some ribs that's about all we thought about it we wouldn't we didn't try to stand there like uh like Malcolm Anson you know children make everything and tell him a whole lot of stuff that we just basically went there just to get what we whatever we wanted and then we left and then we had friends that lived in the community we had a more inside track but that was not something that we were trying to do we weren't trying to make any kind of political statement or anything we just wanted to go to school and go home you know some of us didn't just didn't go to school he just found out now like I said there was a tremendous comradeship with the Mersey community in Boston University and when it came to the drug culture yes but and I wasn't a real drunk person there's nothing to make me a good boy he's just I just wasn't into it but I do know friends and we're very much into it and that was basically the connections from the Munsey black community or white community or wherever so but like I said I don't remember doing anything I'm just getting a haircut and get some lead and once a while you know and so it wasn't like Harlem New York all I remember is just yeah and so in his letter just gonna read off what a few of the things that I noted that he listed and if you could just comment on them she'll think just your perspective on needles so the first thing he mentioned and I guess I'll read them off and then afterwards okay you should pick whichever ones he says that blackness is minimized and divided into childish cliques more with more emphasis on Greek culture than blackness and he also mentions sort of what you talked about that the black students at Ball State were alienated on a fictitious level of superiority over black students of month of black citizens of Muncie Indiana that's just a quote from the article he also mentions a specific scenario where funds were collected to support an NW n-double-a-cp chapter and when the people who collected the funds were asked what chapter the members of whichever prefer eternity he doesn't mention looked spellbound as to what to say and it was clear that the people were in a pocket the money and then there is the I guess the way they perceive it is black professionals from Muncie being more than willing to transfer their expertise into Ball State but black Ball State professionals not doing the same so of those of those few things do you do you have any key we come in all of them um you can comment on one you can come in on all of them okay in terms of the fraternity sorority as I synthesize when you come to Ball State or any other WI PWI there is nothing there is no there's nothing for you to do activity wise where you feel part of the institutional community now when you're not part of the institutional community or the climate you have a level of low self esteem or sense of belonging not connected if that persists as a problem you leave campus you don't stay the fraternities are very very important because they give you the social Avenue or connectivity with people of your culture or what you think is your culture you may be multi multiracial but if you're more identified with the black culture is opposed to white culture or you want to dip and dab them both and you didn't get the opportunity to be involved in the black culture like you wanted to be then the fraternity sorority selfish you that opportunity philosophically you say okay well the Greeks stole our culture and they did and I think it through the the lettering and all that stuff it's just kind of like how things are said I don't consider myself a person that has a great Greek heritage you know study Greece and Austin and understand all the things about Greece everybody really toe and Plato's Republic and all that stuff but that certainly doesn't qualify me as being a total student of Greek ideal there's something that kind of stuff but I do think that the fraternity sorority they have to understand some of the people that are in Muncie lived in Massey grew up in Marcy will never leave Muncie so they have a limited idea of what life is really all about and that happens to people that have Ball State graduates they're from Gary and they go from Gary to Muncie back to Carrie and they have no idea or no perception of what the life is really all about I didn't want to be that kind of person now you familiar with the with Jimmy Stewart's movie It's a Wonderful Life well the Jimmy Stewart movie It's a Wonderful Life it was Jimmy Stewart was trying to leave the town that he was in and see the world and experienced the world I didn't want to be like Jimmy Stewart why I had to stay there with mr. Potter and Bill the bailius savings in law I want to experience the world I wanted to see the world and because I've done that is that I have a different clear perception of not just life in Muncie Indiana or or Ball State or Gary Indiana I've been I live in eight cities you know I travel all I was in New York and Harlem two weeks ago so I mean my perception or my my my my cultural palette is different and what I'm saying is that a lot of people in Muncie never leave Muncie and they go to Annapolis once a year maybe and they have no knowledge about our people yeah work people that come to universities are people whose parents have exposed them to certain things they may not be rich but they have exposed them to certain things they went to to Alabama to see the Space Center they've been to the Smithsonian in Washington DC you know so they have an expulsion level maybe they haven't been to the Louvre in Paris that's fine but they read about it they exposed they're trying to emphasize the they're educating themselves some of the people in Muncie I just they just go home you work at wherever and they go home they have a limited they're limited now that said all of them I'm saying so you can't get jealous of somebody that's going to college there was a lot of people have bought from us see they were what they were going to college at Ball State there was a lot of them whatnot so it's just like being his crabs in a barrel your leaders are gonna come from when we can look at the boys theory the educated you need the talented tenth I think I think some of your your great leaders are gonna come from the talented tenth the people that are that are educated they speak well that understand platonic Republic they understand what happened in the civil rights movement the replications what were the good things that happened and the bad things that happened so I'm not saying that you can't have a grassroot leader that never went to college you don't always have to go to college but you have to read and you have to be exposed to things if you're not reading and getting exposed to things then you're not educating yourself and you really can't be effective leader if you have nothing to say and so you have you have a problem with them with with the natives that year in Muncie that's so that's their problem they never left they like they like they they stay like George Bailey it's a wonderful life they have never understood that they don't understand there's a world outside of Indiana I haven't lived in Indiana since so long and I'm not saying in the end of the terrible state Ball State is good or great as any other city or any cook in America it's nothing wrong with living in Muncie matter of fact I wish I'd lived in Muncie I could save a lot of money but and then you hear you had an institution like Ball State there's a certain there's a certain level of things that one could learn just being around even if he's in a field just being around a doctoral institution research institution like Ball State you know you have great performance come here you have student performances you have people that have some level of thought in which they're looking at different research ideas you know you just journals and all that all those things very important and I win yeah no no I'm just I'm just trying to talk all night you know that's true here for ya all right now before we move on from Ball State there's a couple other things I just wanted to ask you to touch on one of which was from from from our records here it says that you played football in 1975 yeah I played football I was spring and I got hurt they had to have an operation that ball Hospital down the street and I came here I you know had an operation was a touring college they didn't do the the kind they did used to do their old school and yeah I was in the hospital for about a week in Puri Ball State more yeah and I got hurt and I never I was trying I was rehabbing I was swimming I was doing all that and for a while we had tractor you know give myself back and I said to myself where am I going back out there to get hurt again and I just said forget it you know it was the greatest it was a good decision one because it it's a gladiator sport like probably got another got a concussion I was hurt my leg was already messed up and then I could emphasize my career in journalist it was the best thing and one other thing so your name is mentioned on a document I'd say to document for the University freshman Madrigal singers you're listed as as a freshman singer did you have an experience yeah well what it is I was I was yeah we were we were it was something in dorm and we were singing getting on the roof and was a choir and I was getting involved in different things I was involved in so much stuff man you know I mean I was the only brother and you know what school I mean I enjoyed the people I was you know singing with and I was a theater minor and I was an art minor two worthless minors the reason why they were worthless I'm saying if they bad they were worthless for me because for theater I would have to put more emphasis than going and you know acting and and and working in the theater and going to rehearsals I don't have time for that I was working at the Daily News newspaper I was always a journalist believe me I was my emphasis was the Daily News I was at the Daily News alive and anything that kept me away from working in journalism or doing that I was really not interested you know so I said well I had to make a choice and and the art was it was for me not good because it was some two subject of it I didn't want to do that I was I'm a storyteller you know but I didn't learn a few things about design in art that I didn't know but so what I did I want to take more journalism classes so I had a double major so I was able to take more journalism classes and I was a major I had a journalism education major so when I graduate from college Hannah teaches education licensed in journalism and my first job was when my first when my first job was a writer but by my second job in this after graduation was uh was working as journalism teacher at Westside I'm not gonna did that the rest of my life but I one didn't want to be like George Bailey I didn't want to be back at the same high school back at the same church it was gonna be awful situation for me personally because there was not my life direction my life direction was the see the world and go travel and do things and I did that thank God but I I wouldn't have done it if I would have said oh I would just stay here in Gary and work it wouldn't have happened just like the people in Muncie if they only stay in Muncie and never leave and never have the opportunity to chance so you have to take a chance on yourself if you want to be great you have to be able to take chances you can't be great if you can't if you don't take chances sometimes those chances work sometimes they don't but you have to be able to be you have to have great courage and you have to understand yourself and you have to trust yourself if you don't trust yourself or you have no confidence in yourself you cannot be great will not happen people will tell you that you're great people said you bad but if you have no confidence in you if you're not about promoting you you can forget it all right and there's just a couple more things that I wanted to fill in some information so over the course of the interview so far we've mentioned the office of special programs nowadays it's called the Multicultural Center would you would you care to just briefly explain its significance I know we've touched on it a little bit but just for for the record the the special program said over at the time when I was there was kind of a beacon it was a place it was a shelter where we came together to commune together to to to mention things that happen in our lives here on campus there wasn't a lot of room when I said a lot of room there was not for us to sit around you talk but you would always see people there if you need to meet somebody here it was a good meeting spot and it was it was it was a place in which you which we found cultural refuge they used to put up each each semester in quarters at the time who was on the Dean's List and I don't know if they still do that but I got the opportunity to be up there once or twice and I still have the certificate at home when I made the team size thin about 3.6 yeah so I mean so it was and I didn't always make it no remember I wasn't a Rhodes Scholar I was average guy that what made me great is that I worked hard I know mother I've worked very hard and in in my classes not all my classes but in general I had a work ethic so you know the spec I said the special programs there was a guy named Cody they'd used to be there and Cody was you can go to him as his people got various things I guess found out about housing things it was I didn't have a whole lot of you know going there doing just you know just getting counseling I was just basically there hanging out and just being people there so it was it good for that now the Student Center at the time was a good place that we hung out to a lot of people were at the Teachers College for some reason because a lot of people were in education and it was the midpoint from campus you know so a lot of people stopped there even if they didn't take classes alright now moving on from Ball State when you graduated you pursued in graduate school at the Ohio University School of visual communication so what motivated your choice to go to graduate school and instead of well I wanted you to graduate school for I didn't really want to go to graduate school I wanted to get a job in journalism in and that's what I wanted to do but if I did not get the opportunity to get the job I wanted I thought graduate school would be your next next second choice plus I eventually I want to be a college professor in general one day so I thought the graduate school level route was good for me when I graduate from college in 1978 there was ten years after the colonel Commission report which said that it was a few months after dr. King's assassination and that report said that we live in a separate but equal society one white one black and also it said that there was not a lot of people of color that were working in the industry of journalism there were only basically one black reporter and one maybe two and every paper and that was it so it was very difficult for me to get involved in journalism after in 1978 contrary to my thinking very difficult so what I did is that okay I'm gonna go to a school and I thought about going to Ball State but I said where I'm gonna go to a different school so I was dying to talk going to IU I was thinking about going to high you not again going back to you except about you before so it's gonna go to a year for graduate school and so I came back to Ball State one of the senior supposed graduate students so well you should go to Ohio University it's the best school from you know future journalist so I applied to Ohio University I got in and I didn't get any money so I my first job was I was a high school journalism teacher I coulda did that the rest of my life trust me they were grooming me to be assistant principal rest of my life I probably would enter station wagon for kids going to st. Church same school miserable I would have been like George Bailey and it's a wonderful life it would have been perfect setup I was I was I was I was gonna be James Stewart no problem no question about it so I took a chance I quit my job I got a the second year I got a scholarship to go to Ohio University and that's why I went to I went to Ohio University best best decision I made in terms of my total development sacrifices yes but it was a good decision cuz they got me ready for the major leagues I mean the second semester I was there I had an internship in Dayton then the next one I was in Dallas then I ended up in in Washington at the post so I mean it gave me a whole a different outlook of different perspective you know on decisions you make you don't know why you make them you just have to try to make the best decision for you at that time you know what you're gonna make some bad mistakes you're gonna make good mistakes sometimes mistakes which you think of mistakes are not bad mistakes they cook mistakes but you think it's a mistake so your life you don't know the best thing I can say straight try to stay grounded try to understand what you what direction you would like to have your life to go it may not always go that way you can never resent anybody else that become successful and you didn't that's that's that's not the way to be you have to look within yourself and try to become better never let anybody tell you you can't make it because if you do let anybody tell you you can't make it I've been told several times you're not good enough you know you never listen to that you can listen to it but if you think that that's what you think you're not gonna ever make it I'm talking about making it to the major leagues notice I emphasize major leagues I'm not talking about double-a I'm talking about major leagues I'm talking about the championship route and the beat to get to that point you have to have a certain Stern belief in yourself you have to be prepared and you have to you have to jump on every opportunity you can you have to make friends and you're gonna make enemies as you make a brain it's everybody's not gonna like you you not gonna like everybody else everybody scared everybody and that's just the way it is in life now unfortunately we will be coming up on the end of our interview soon right but I did want to touch on your career in journalism because it's quite impressive and you ain't done a lot but first I wanted to ask how did you make the transition like you said to the big leagues how did you how did you go from okay I'm studying graduate work at Ohio and and you know now I'm here working as a journalist and covering some of the largest stories of the time how did that come well you again you have to prepare yourself you go to college not to get a job I believe is to make you think critically that's the reason why one comes to an institution of higher learning is to be able to think critically if you think critically you can start thinking about how is it better for you to get to this point A to B sometimes it's just luck but if you're not prepared you're not gonna make it my father and mother did not have a golf buddy they work for the hearse company newspaper they didn't know the grams so I I didn't have the opportunity I didn't have any connections only thing I had was just me and my mother and father fated me to do the right thing that was it a couple prayers he in there from BTU couple scriptures I remember that was it was there was no special merit magic wah nobody came down and just gave me some personal gift it was a lot of hard work in agony and believing in yourself and being rejected I've been rejected so much I mean rejection don't even bother me anymore you know rejection is part of your development and you have to understand rejection sometimes because they don't want you there then they don't like you and you know you smell funny or not funny I don't know sometimes they just you just not the right person for the fit or you know you don't need to be there because she's not ready I don't know but you have to keep trying if you want something like you have to keep trying if you want to be a nuclear physicist but you have a D in physics you probably not know a nuclear physicist you have to understand what your limitations are and what you know what you can obtain that's why you come to college you you experiment and so this is a years of experimentation where you learn it what you major in is not something that you're gonna really even do when you get out in the world you meet people that are basically terrible students when they come to college and they become great inventors because there's something happens in between college and men so you can you know college is a great thing you should go to college if you can and I don't believe this thing called college material I think people everybody can go to college you know some people learn better at certain things and some people at all you can just go to college formulas while just experiment the same level it's a point of anews for experimentation it's only one really all it is and so I wanted to ask you about one particular story that you cover it was in 1994 and it was Africa's first the article says all race election maybe you could clarify yeah I was I was one of three journalists that was what from the Chicago Tribune they covered their dog excuse me the inauguration of Nelson Mandela as president of South Africa and also with emphasis of the all-race election process during that whole month so I was in South Africa for a month they dispatched two of us from Chicago which was the headquarters and we always had a person that was in Bureau in South Africa in the Bureau because of the changing times so unfortunately I was a little jealous the Washington Post had eight people the New York Times had about twelve so we were like we were gone we were outgunned but we we had a lot of we did a lot of things we went all over South Africa I think my work was it was nominated for a Pulitzer by the paper you didn't make nomination finalists but it was by the paper so it was it was a great time and it was a it was a fun time and it was it was a time in which we were reporting there was a lot of us they are African Americans that were there from the various papers and we I mean we worked hard sunup to sundown I remember going to this bar they called it you beings and we I had a couple Devils with me from the different papers who has travel will not that I was a saint but so we had this beer in the car right we had all this beer in the car and we was trying to what so we got to get rid of somebody's beer so we pulled in some little village I don't know small village and they were kind of giving us some little problem you know y'all are here and we had this guy who was Indian and they didn't like him they was busy going with some prob we pumped that we popped his truck say y'all help yourself and these they treated us like kings we gave this all this beer they was walking around with us that we was trying to you know we just said hey you know don't give us no problems we we from America you know so they it was it was it's funny like that you know just a simple gesture like beer something so we went we we would you go a lot of different places when we were so excited to be there cuz for some of us myself included was the first time we ever landed on the African continent now being of african-american descent we didn't exactly know where we were from in terms of continent review I believe that we're more west coast we don't but we don't know they from the slave trade they pulled us from the South and whatever but we were just glad to be honest on the continent a place called Africa South Africa's mean was very very different from summer Africans and certainly you know influenced Dutch influence and there were the head hotels their running water inside not all not all places did the places where that African people in general were what we're pretty bad or even horrible some some were but we were able to travel the countryside without any problem and did that experience for you personally did that just going back to blackness did that experience change or in any way enhance your own identity having gone to Africa and seeing you know for a bit how things were there I don't think it changed me I don't think it altered my identity I am my identity was was was was seared in Gering Indiana I was I was I was I was gonna be Gary Indiana in a small town little town drug infested now wasn't like that when I grew up so so I didn't need any identity thing I don't think if I would have and I'm not saying that I think people ask me well why you go to HBCU well I would only probably even went to one but they didn't have me in Indiana and Ball State was there I don't think if me being african-american going to a black school or whatever it's gonna engender any race bride you have to have your own individuality in your heart when you arrive me going to a PW I didn't alter my reality of being a black man or a black person my love for black people it didn't alter at all it really strengthened it because it I understood how important they were to my development in my creative I needed them I need them I need black people cuz they helped me create they helped me they helped develop me I'm their son so going to Africa was basically a historical point of reference yeah I'm glad going the motherland the soil you know I didn't want to stay in Africa because I want to get back to America so I can watch NBA you know I'm uh you know I'm American come from America now so yes I like the historical connection and you know I've been to Africa again a couple times and it's beautiful and it's where we're from and I love being there I feel at home I have no problems at all but you know my identities already been established in Indiana in Gary all right well before we conclude the interview a professor Brown I just want to ask you if there was any topic or area that we didn't touch on anything you wanted to leave the viewer or listener with before we conclude I don't know if I can I've said so much I know I don't even know what you're gonna even take out so that guy talked to just talking me surrounding the viewer I would I would like to say as an african-american former student here at Ball State this was a it was a great experience I had a joyful time in the School of Journalism they treated me like I was a person I was it was only three of us in the journalism school African American they could have been rude they could have been not helpful but they were not like that at all they were very supportive and very nurturing and they treated me like a human being and I never will forget that I remember dr. Engelhart and I was used to walk in his office and just say hello and she remembered me and they made me feel like I would add I was I had a sense of belonging when a sense of belonging I had a connection with them both spiritual emotionally and journalistic connection with them in my department I've been façades a lot about the fraternity and the fraternity is very important to me at that time is initiation from even now that's very important it's part of who I am I will be she sapphire till the day I die it's part of who I am as a person my heritage in my development so through journalism which is basically my field I'm from primarily only the product of Miss Piggy when she made me in the second grade she she asked me to be this class reporter she she had she knew that it was something that about me that I don't know maybe she knew or didn't know but she gave me courage she she provided me the opportunity and through that opportunity I've risen to be perhaps one of the most multi-talented storytellers in the profession and that's what I like to leave my interview yes they carry well on behalf of the Ball State african-american alumni oral history project I would like to thank you for sitting down with us today okay well I hope I'd have talked

Channel: Ball State University Libraries

Views: 54

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: oral histories, interviews, Ball State University alumni and alumnae, black college graduates

Id: z7tAZQvZBKQ

Length: 113min 21sec (6801 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 29 2019