Chris: Good afternoon, my name is Chris Reidy. Today is August 10th, 2016. We are in the home of Ron Whitlock, and we
are doing an interview for 2 projects, for the Stories of Service and also for the Ford
Oval of Honor. And, can you give us your name and when you
were born? 13:42:46.07 Ronald: Ron Whitlock, born Ronald. W-h-i-t-l-o-c-k. I was born December 12th 1948. Chris: And Ron, you were a member of the military. Which branch of the military were you a member
of? 13:43:01.26 Ronald: The United State Marine
Corps. Chris: And when did you enter the service? 13:43:06.01 Ronald: Right out of high school,
1967. Chris: And did you volunteer or did Uncle
Sam send you a letter? 13:43:17.19 Ronald: I received a notice, draft
notice to report for a physical. And a friend I grew up with got the same notice
the same day. We went down, took our physical and they give
you so many days or weeks before you get called back for the draft if you want to join. So we, he came by one day on his motorcycle
and said “Let’s, would you like to join the Marine Corps on the Buddy System”. And being an 18-year old with hardly anything
in my brain I said “Sure”. And we went down and joined. Chris: So, was, it was your friend’s decision
to join the Marine Corps. What were your thoughts at the time? 2 13:43:59.08 Ronald: Well, we knew we were
going to get drafted. And so we knew we were going in. And his father was a Marine from World War
2 and so he was wanting to join the Marine Corps and we were, we grew up together, and
uh, and when he asked me I thought “Well, it’s either that or I wanted to be in the
airborne”. And so we went down and joined together. Chris: Did you know at, obviously at the time
the conflict in Vietnam was going on. Did you have any thoughts or feelings about
that, or any anxiety? 13:44:39.17 Ronald: I really didn’t have
anxiety, though we knew it was going on of course. And I was raised in a very patriotic home,
he was too. My dad march with color guard in the Memorial
Day race parade in downtown Indianapolis every year I grew up. All sorts of memorial things that he was involved
in with the American Legion and marching and so forth. So there was this patriotism that I felt strongly
about and I didn’t run off just, you know, waving the flag to be a patriot, but that
was strong and I felt like I needed to do it. And even gave up a college scholarship at
the time from Southern Illinois University in wrestling, got a full paid scholarship. And I didn’t really know what I was wanting
to do in life and so went that way with my friend. Chris: When you began your training, or during
the course of your training, did any of that patriotism kind of wane, or did you begin
to question your decision? 13:45:57.23 Ronald: No, I never did, not through
training. And it was very difficult, I was thankful
that I was in good shape. But the patriotism didn’t wane then, but
there was a period of time where, I wasn’t anti-American but the patriotism had a question
to it because, you know, say “What’s going on here, and why are we doing what we’re
doing”. And so those questions. And it wasn’t so much anti-war as it was
why won’t they let us win this thing because everything we did had restrictions to it. Chris: What was your military occupation and
specialty? 13:46:44.22 Ronald: Well, in Marine Corps
it’s called 03-11 and that’s infantry. My friend and I were both selected for the
same unit at the same time. And I had scored, I’m not certain what in,
but they sent me to be a guard on naval ships. And the Navy calls them “Seagoing Bellhops”. And I got there and they’re talking to us
about how we scored on everything and they said “And everybody scored this and everybody’s
5’10”. And I said “No sir, I’m not 5’10”. And he said “You go back to that”. I got sent to the infantry unit. And if I hadn’t opened my mouth I’m sure
standing in line somewhere they would have saw that this guy isn’t the same height. But it ended up being 03-11. 3 Chris: What was your first impression when
they opened the door on the plane and you landed in Vietnam? 13:47:51.22 Ronald: Well we were nervous because
when we landed the TET Offensive had started. And when the American airline flew in they
told us we only had so many seconds or minutes to get off the plane. And we knew then that this wasn’t just a
routine exercise. And so there was an anxiousness, little bit
of fearfulness of what’s going on and what’s going to happen next. And a lot of nervousness for being, you know,
18 years old and green and going into something like that. Chris: When you get there, just to reiterate,
you get there and the TET offensive is already underway, so you know you’re going into
a beehive, can you describe the first several days of, within joining your unit? 13:48:43.21 Ronald: Well they flew us in a
helicopter into the mountains, Phu Loc Mountains. And my unit that I joined came down from a
mountaintop, or a detachment did, to get us as replacements. And we carried supplies up. And I don’t know what the temperature was,
I would say at least a hundred more, and I thought I was going because before we got
to the top to die that day because before we got to the top of the mountain, we were
not used to mountain climbing, it was very steep and narrow trails and rocky, and we’re
carrying heavy stuff. And several guys fell out and I just remembered
“I don’t think I’m gonna make, I don’t think I’m gonna get through this because
I thought that first day was excruciating experience. But your body adjusts and we went on. Chris: What was the reception like among the
old hands that were in the unit and then you as replacements show up, and you’re in the
middle of a counter-offensive? 13:49:51.29: Well I was fortunate, a lot of
guys come in and they treat you like a recruit, a new guy, you know. And I didn’t want to be treated that way,
I just wanted to be one of the guys. So they send me to this unit and the guy in
the unit was from Bedford, Indiana. That would have been my team leader. And I, mean we hit it off immediately. And he just treated me like I’d been with
him already for months and months and months. And so I had a great guy that was a mentor,
I followed him, I did everything he did. He was to me a mentor and a hero at the time. Chris: Was there something that came, that
stuck with you through training, some, any particular aspect of your training that was
in the first few days made a difference? 13:50:46.06 Ronald: A lot of the training
was important, but a lot that we did we were not trained for. Jungle warfare, for instance. And when gunfire starts, you know, you just
fall down, but you finally learn that every step you take you’re looking for where you’re
gonna fall if gunfire. So there’s the tension. You’re walking along and everywhere, there’s
a tree, there’s a rock, there’s, which you go over you don’t have that. And then some sensibility things, the first
combat fire I came under we were in a village in a sandy area, we’d come down from the
4 mountains. They lined us up and we were going to sweep
over a village and they said if the guy next to you gets wounded you keep going because
they’ve got amtracks behind you to pick up the wounded. And a machine gun started firing probably
a hundred yards away or more and, you know, rounds cracking over your head and I just
thought “Boy, this is the real thing” and I, whatever it was worth, I had my head
dipped down walking forward and somebody’s cursing me. And I turned around and looked back and every
guy in the company was laying down. I was the only one standing up. And I thought well they told us to keep going,
and I ran back fell down by the squad leader and he said “You dummy, what are you doing?” And you know, that was a mixed signal to me
because in training you’re trained when they tell you to do this you just keep doing
it. And those guys had been over there long enough
to say “No. you don’t, you know, you get down and don’t get mowed down. And so there’s a lot of tension to that
because every day I woke up I thought “I don’t know what to do next. Bit in about 2 weeks to a month I kinda knew
what to do from there on. Chris: With that first combat, when you ran
back, how long did that last, how intense was the combat, and then how did you feel
afterwards, how did you process it? 13:53:03.03 Ronald: It was, it probably was
about an hour firefight. And it turned out there was a detachment of
VC in that village and they were firing at us with machine guns. And it didn’t take long for tanks to dispense
that. But at that moment we didn’t have any men
killed but we had two guys that I gone over there with wounded from that initial burst. And so, you know, there’s a, again, there’s
this nervous anxiousness of what to do next when you’re green and new. This friend of mine was so, such a great guy,
and he would every evening get with me and say “You’re alright, you did okay, next
time let’s do this, next time stay close to me”. And even under combat fire we would be down,
he’d come crawling up from guy to guy saying “You okay, you okay?” And most of the time he was under intense
fire doing that. But he would, you know you kind of pick up
on guys like that. Chris: Did you find later in your tour you
were emulating some of those behaviors and activities? 13:54:21.24 Ronald: Very much, very much. When I become a team leader, you know, I thought
how, his name was Steven Smith, and I, they called him Smittie. And I thought “Now what would Smittie do?” You know, those sort of things you think. The sad thing is he was killed in that action
I was wounded in. And he’s the one I go visit the family every
year, Memorial Day, down in Bedford, Indiana. But when I became Squad Leader it was still
that, I would think “This is the way Smittie would have done it” because he was just,
you know there’s some guys, he was probably just a little older than me, a few months,
but there were some guys that were just mature. And not reckless. You know, not a John Wayne charge em’ but
was really clear headed and everybody just kinda stayed around a person like that. Chris: You’d said it was maybe two weeks
or so, you started to get acclimated, you get that situational awareness where you’re
looking for, I’m gonna, that’s cover, that’s cover, that’s 5 cover. Three, four, you know 6 months, did your attitudes
change during your tour? And if so, how did they? 13:55:47.28 Ronald: Well, it really did. And my biggest attitude change was after I
came out of the hospital and I was sent back over there. I didn’t get to know any guys in my squad
because I did the first time and they were all killed. And I don’t think it was a mental thing,
I mean a conscious thing. I just didn’t do it. And so there were times I felt I resented
the new guys because they didn’t know and you couldn’t trust them to say “Hey, go
over there and check that out.” And so there was a kind of a callousness,
you know, in that period of time. And to get the job done and keep people alive,
that sort of thing. And not to be buddy buddy. And I had leaders that way too, and when I
went over there and I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t buddy buddy. But I found out, you know, 6 months later. Chris: You’ve talked about getting wounded,
let’s set the scene a little bit. TET Offensive is going on in 1968. Where was, well, what unit were you in and
where was your unit and what was the mission? 13:57:04.07 Ronald: It’s Fox Company, Second
Battalion, Third Marines. We were in what was called the hill fights
around Khe Sanh. Khe Sanh was under siege for 77 days and we
had gone in with many other units to break that siege. So we were in the mountains. And that morning we’d climbed on top of
this ridge that overlooked Route 9 going into Khe Sanh. And for some reason there had been a lot of
enemy activity constantly up on that ridge and I guess it’s because of the view or
whatever. So that morning my friend I joined with squad
rotated in front of us. We were the front squad the day before and
they rotated them in front of us. They’re heading down the trail. What we didn’t know was that the NVA was
forming a battalion evidently to attack Khe Sanh. And they walked into the beginning edges of
that battalion. We thought it was just another, initially,
a firefight. You know, shooting for a while, bombs and
planes come in and then it kind of dissipates and the enemy would run off in the jungle
somewhere. But it didn’t end, it went on and on all
day long and my friend was, they were caught, trapped. And so they ordered our company to rush down
this trail to get to them to try to help relieve them. About halfway down that hill I, uh, we stopped
and we were under heavy machine gun fire. And I just remember the guy next to me he,
brand new, hadn’t been there two days, and he was next to me and we were laying behind
a log and I said “When that machine gunner quits firing let’s set up and let’s just
return fire in that direction, try to see if we can get his head down.” He quit firing and we set up and there was
this huge explosion, I had no idea what it was. And this fella next to me was wounded and
I was too. Most of the shrapnel I had my, because it
was so hot I had my flak vest open, so it hit me here and came out through my side in
the chest. And then all the way up the leg and this arm. The guys down at the bottom of the hill were
trapped, we couldn’t get to them. And so, in the confusion of the day they called
in jets and air strike and all that and the enemy actually pulled back by the end of the
day. The most excruciating was trying to get back
up the hill while I was wounded. And I couldn’t use my right leg and I couldn’t
use this hand, shrapnel had gone through the wrist. Race was mixed, but I had never seen him before
but a young black kid came running up to me. And 6 all I remember is he was short and his
thighs looked like a halfback or something, I mean huge thighs on him. And he said “Can you walk?” And I said “Not very well.” He said “Well hang on to my belt.” And I grabbed his belt and that guy, you know,
looked like training in football, he was just pumping, dragging me up that hill. And two times we had to stop because we were
under such intense machine gun fire. Most of the trees were all chopped up and
guys were getting hit everywhere. And so he’d get me a little farther and
we’d drop down again, and that guy got me to the top of that hill. And to this day I don’t know what his name
is. And so it was pretty intense. Two guys were shot next to me on the way up. I got to the top and my Gunny Sergeant was
shot in the head right next to me. And then I mentioned to you earlier that there
was a guy had one day left, Sergeant Joe Whitted and I got to the top of that bomb crater and
I was just exhausted, I couldn’t hardly pull myself up. And about two or three guys, just real quick,
got up over the bomb crater and grabbed me, he was one of them and got shot through the
chest and died right there. So they got me to the top of the hill, helicopter
flew in and they put me on it and they got me out to a, kind of like a MASH unit, if
you see how MASH operates, that kind of unit. But my friend’s stuck down there. Finally by the end of the day the enemy pulled
back and he got shot in the foot. So in that MASH unit I was told when I got
to the hill I said “Did the guys make it?” and they said “I don’t think any of those
guys down there made it.” I thought he was killed. And then they told him they thought I was
killed so we thought each other had been killed. Until we got into the MASH unit and I saw
them carrying him in. There was a little bit of exhilaration there
that he made it out, you know, okay. But those were just kind of the events that
took place. There wasn’t a lot of emotion during that
time because there was too much action to do. But afterwards there was a lot of, you know,
you didn’t know if you wanted to shake or cry. Chris: I think that’s, someone who hasn’t
gone through combat doesn’t understand that. Obviously we see all the movies and the guys
are yelling, they’re screaming, they’re John Wayneing themselves. But what is that difference as far as non-emotion
to emotion and how do you process all those emotions? 14:03.27.02 Ronald: Well, one thing, and I
didn’t know a lot about the physiological of this then, but when you go through that
there is such as exhilaration of adrenaline, I mean it’s a high almost. And after an action, if you haven’t been
injured, guys just talk incessantly, they’re just telling, and there’s all this adrenaline. But then the adrenaline drops and there’s
a, almost a depression, because you begin to think reality, you begin to think I could
have been killed. But when the action starts I don’t ever
remember a guy, that being an issue. Everybody just did their job. And if a guy was injured somebody always rushed
out there to get him. There was never a guy thinking “Well that’s
crazy, I’m not going out there.” There was always somebody that did that, and
you just did your job. It’s almost like you put that in the back
of your brain and forgot about it during that time. But it’s afterwards, because I began to
watch guys go through the adrenaline drop, and sometimes they would cry and sometimes
they would shake, you know, that emotion. And I think the toll it took where you become
numb is day after day, and then you get four hours sleep at night, or three hours, whatever
it would be. And then you do it again, go through an adrenaline
deal 7 and the next thing you know guys are just kind of numbed emotionally. And you just do your actions from then on. Chris: That’s where, I guess, the training
kicks in and various studies have also looked at, you know, combat effectiveness is like
a Bell Curve. When you’re new to the unit you’re not
very effective, then you get experience and you know how to survive, you’re very effective
as a soldier. But then it tails off and you become an automaton
and you’re, you just go through the motions, you don’t, you’re not a very good soldier. Did you find that same arc within your own
experience? 14:05:49.22 Ronald: It really was. When experience came, and then the training. And the military nowadays are so well trained. But the training kicks in, you do what you’re
supposed to do. And the emotional part of it comes later on. Sometimes guys would be angry in the midst
of that because it would be a friend was injured or something. But, you know, most guys were, they just did
their job. And most of the time were trying to keep from
getting killed or keep our friends from getting killed. Like I said it would be amazing to me in intense
fire a guy jumps up and runs out there and gets a guy. And without any thought that “You know I’m
probably going to get shot out there. But they often did, and they brought that
person back. Chris: The unit, or the action in which both
you and your friend were injured in, that wasn’t your first firefight? 14:06:55.01 Ronald: No. We had had a series of fire, you’d go weeks
and not have a firefight sometimes because we were up in the jungle area trying to catch
the enemy. And then we’d go through a period of time
where it was almost every other day. But it wasn’t a major encounter with, they
had 2 companies involved and we had 2 companies involved. It was often just a brief firefight where
they’re trying to catch us off-guard, we’re returning fire. Or we’re out on a listening post and we
catch them moving down a trail. And it’s very brief. But this one became intense and it was apparent
this was not the typical firefight. Actually, what happened after I was wounded
is about 10 days later my company set a perimeter up on top of that hill. And that enemy unit formed that night and
assaulted that hill with about 500 men. And there was probably about 80 of our men
left. And that’s where most of my guys in my squad
were killed. They were at the brunt of the assault. Where the company held the hill and won the
day by the next morning my squad was the one that was on the slope side coming up. So there again we didn’t realize there was
a battalion down there somewhere. I think they kept thinking the whole time
it was a company moving around and we were just trying to block them or catch them or
something like that. Chris: You went from being the pursuer to
the pursued, or your unit did in that case. 14:08:44.11 Ronald: Yea, they really did. They held that night and it was very intense
at nighttime, which is what happened to my squad was if a hole gets knocked out now you’ve
got this 8 huge gap. And they were rushing through the gaps. And now getting behind the guys. And so most of the guys in the platoon that
survived it, it was pretty intense, they couldn’t make it up to the top of the hill. They just survived where they were at that
night. And just was unfortunate. I was taken out of the MASH unit and put in
my headquarters, I don’t mean headquarters but our unit, to recover cause I was hobbling
around and there was much serious, more serious guys that needed treatment and they needed
the beds. And I’ve never forgot that night that they
said your company’s under intense attack. It was early the next morning they started
posting the KIA list, Killed in Action. And I began to look and every one of them
were from my squad. And it was just numbing, it was a numbing
experience. Chris: Did you feel guilt, survivor’s guilt? 14:10:04.03 Ronald: I did. The whole time I went back angry that I should
have been there. The crazy thing is, you know, you’re young,
I had just turned 19, but if I had been there, you know, I would have been with them, so
my name would be etched on the memorial wall somewhere. But there was very much anger and guilt. Then they came to me and said they have to
use dog tags and dental records for identification but they also want to have one visual. And they said you’re the only guy that’s
left in the squad, so they sent me to what’s called what’s called Dong Hau Grave, where
they bring all the bodies in get them ready to bring them to the states to identify the
guys. And that was pretty traumatic. And I went in and they brought everybody out
in a bag and I had to sign an identification acknowledgement on every one of them. In all I probably signed identification for
about 10 guys, but in all there was about 20 some but they weren’t all from my squad,
guys that I knew that were in the company. Chris: And you were sent to Japan to convalesce? 14:11:27.23 Ronald: Yakuska, Japan, to convalesce. When I began to recover there and could get
around, you know if you get up and use a broom they’ll let you go out on leave, so I was
up using that broom so I could go out and go to the movies or something. And I got to go on leave, but it was just
one of those things where I don’t know if the guys that were, they’d give me a duty
assignments that were just miserable. And guys were bossing you around and I’m
thinking, you know, I felt like I was a mature veteran by now, 19-year-old mature veteran. I went to the doctor and I said “This is
crazy, you know, I joined the Marine Corps to be a Marine and not to just stack boxes.” And I said “Can you send me to states?”
and he said “I can’t, I don’t have authority to do that. All I’ve got authority to do is sign a waiver
and send you back to your unit.” And I said “Well send me back.” And he did. And I still remember the day I landed on a
helicopter and stepped off of it and thought “What in the world did I just do?” And so when O got there they immediately made
me a Squad Leader ‘cause I was the most mature guy there, been there longer. The thing was it wasn’t like going back
to your unit, all the guys I knew were gone, had rotated home, been wounded or killed. So these were all new guys. And so they made me a Squad Leader. I got the guys through it but I didn’t really
get to know them, I just stayed to myself and did the 9 commanding things you got to
do. I look back on that now and thought, you know,
that’s a shame because I probably had a emotional reaction that I didn’t want to
get close to these guys. Chris: Do you think, looking back, that some
of your motivation to go back to your unit, do you think revenge or retribution were involved,
having lost your squad? 14:13:38.09 Ronald: You know I think so. I think a lot of that was in play there, that
I felt like maybe I needed to go back. There was just a lot of things. Part of it was the way I was being treated,
my superiors and I just wanted to get out of that situation. And so I went back to the unit but what I
didn’t know was the doctor for my benefits signed “Absolutely no combat”. And when I got back they just stuck my records
in a file and I went back to combat and I was back in combat for several months. And the next thing I know I got, my commander
got a call and said “Get him out of there right now, right away.” He said “You, for some reason you’ve got
to go, they want you out of here.” And so I still remember we on top of a mountain
peak and a big Chinook flew, two of them, and one flew and landed and guys leaving got
on it. And as it took off it got shot down and I
just remember seeing it fall down in that, because we were on a mountain top, in that
valley and crash and explode. And the next one landed. And he said “If you’re going to out of
here you’ve gotta get on that.” And I said “I’m not getting on that.” And he said “You gotta get on that.” I said “Sir, I’m not getting on it, I’m
not getting on that.” And I didn’t and it did get out. He said “Well you’re gonna be here another
week ‘cause there won’t be another helicopter.” So I went through another week on the mountain
top and another helicopter flew in and I got out. As it turned out they began to look at my
records and found that that I wasn’t supposed to be in combat. So I finished the tour out at the Post Office
in Da Nang, shuffling mail of guys that had been killed and we had to send it, and that
was, there again was another, I can’t believe I got assigned to some of these duties but
my job was their mail came to them and they had been killed so they would send it back
to this department and we then had to re-package it and send it back to the family. So that was my job for the rest of the time
I was in, the last month probably. Chris: When you were in that last month, you
know, doing a duty you didn’t really want to do, but did you look back on maybe that
stretch where you came back from the hospital and re-entered combat, was there any kind
of self-recrimination, like what, if anything happens to me it’s my own fault. What were your feelings that you’re feeling
toward yourself and the people around you? 14:16:37.00 Ronald: There was. I never regretted being with the unit, but
I thought you know I made it out of one already, now I’m back. And it wasn’t as intense. The last part of 1968 we really, America,
I mean anybody can look at the records, America probably was this close to winning the war. But politically we lost it. The enemy was decimated, there was no VC left,
the NVA, my last months in combat the only NVA prisoners that we took were not over 15
years old. They were going into Cambodia and just getting
boys out of villages to fill ranks. That’s a visual testimony that I’m actually
giving you, I, those prisoners, our guys were 10 devastated when we realized we were fighting
15–year-old kids. They treated them very well, the prisoners
you know, gave them water, gave them food. So the last combat experiences I had were
with really young teenage boys. And we began to say “Well this things over. They can’t field an army.” And the truth of the matter is that’s what
I didn’t know was going on in the U.S., the protests and everything, that we were
literally losing the war politically. Combat strategy, we won it and never lost
a battle. But it was the political agenda that made
the day. Chris: When they, you finally are getting
on the plane to head home and what were some of the thoughts going through your head and
what was your, we’ve spoken but for the record , what was the reception once you got
home? 14:18:54.19 Ronald: I remember, I’ve never
forgot getting on that American Airline plane and there were Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force,
packed. And not a word was said, everybody was just
almost holding your breath. Maybe we were thinking “We can’t believe
we’re leaving.” And when that plane lifted there was a cheer
and shout like you can’t hardly, like we. Colts won a football game or they won the
championship. I mean people were standing up high-fiving,
slapping each other on the back, hugging, cheering, because we were actually leaving
the country. It was that kind of feeling, the stewardesses
were all, I mean guys didn’t mind getting hugged by a stewardess, and so they were hugging
guys and getting us Cokes and whatever we wanted. And then we landed in California and I maybe
have to look back on my records because they flew us to Okinawa, so we were in Okinawa
a week getting everything together there. Then we flew out of Okinawa on a Air Force
jet, great big ol’ thing and landed somewhere in California and then we had to get off that
plane, walk to the gate and get a taxi to take us to a civilian airlines, airport. And when we got off that plane I just remember
there was this long sidewalk with a chain link fence next to it and we were in single
file carrying our bags. And way down the line I saw making this kind
of a move from the fence, and people were lining the fence. And I thought they were welcoming us home
and when I got up there they were spitting through the fence. And that was my first experience with, “What
in the world is going on?” Because I didn’t know the animosity not
only to the war but to the military especially. And most of us thought we’ve, you know,
we did what we were asked to do and now we’re coming home getting spit at. I was so anxious to get home I just ignored
it. I think everybody did really. We just didn’t want to get spit on so we
bypassed it and we just all, that’s all I could think of was this was the next leg,
I’m flying from here to Chicago and Chicago to Indianapolis. That was all that was on my mind. And I guess I didn’t assimilate until after
I was home when I began to realize how much people were, hated the military. If I wore my uniform in Indianapolis, Indianapolis
wasn’t as bad as L.A., but if you wear you uniform there is always somebody that called
you a “baby killer’, you know, a “murderer”, something like that. And it was just kind of stunning. We just didn’t know what in the world going
on here. Chris: Did you get home before or after your
friend that you went into the Marine with, he was wounded in the foot in that same action? 14:22:21.01 11 Ronald: He came home first,
they went ahead and sent him home and he went to Philadelphia or something like that for
recovery on his surgery. And so he was already home and had come home. And so I’d gone back over for that, to finish
my tour and finish that out before I came home. Chris: And when you two met up what was that
like? 14:22:46.27 Ronald: When we finally got to
meet up again we hugged, shook hands, asked how each other was, but that was pretty much
it. We didn’t talk a lot about, even to each
other at that time, about that experience. I mean all of his squad was killed when my
squad was killed. And so he got that experience of all those
guys that he was friends with, and they were all killed in that action. And so we, we just kind of was friends but
we didn’t talk much about it. Chris: You and your, your father was a World
War 2 vet, a combat veteran of World War 2 and you’d said that the two of you would
talk and you had someone to tell what was bothering you and your experiences. Can you explain how your relationship grew
from that? 14:23:47.26 Ronald: Well dad and I always
had a good relationship. He was a hard worker, blacksmith for the railroad
the whole time I grew up, retired from that early and became a real estate agent. And so I always had these stories he would
tell but after I got back dad and I sat in a room and I think I prompted it with a story. And then dad just, it was like a floodgate. Now he didn’t cry, my dad wasn’t much
of a crier, but he just, it just flowed out. His experiences and combat stories and things
like that that he, he hadn’t told anybody. Or at least the family. We had a good relationship before but it was
almost like the, if I could borrow the term “The Band of Brothers”, there was almost
that link at that time because we realized both of us had seen the same thing, experiences
and that sort of thing. And then there were so many times I’d say
“Boy dad, this happened” and he had an experience identical, those sort of things
that took place. We talked a lot after that and it was then
that I asked dad to write his down, which he began to record some of those experiences. He went to reunions the latter part of, I’d
say the last 20 years of his life, 4th Infantry reunions, World War 2 reunions. And that really was wholesome for him because
he saw a lot of buddies and friends that he served with. They kept contact every year. Chris: And you said he was active in the Legion
in veterans… 14:25:44.24 Ronald: He was a Sergeant-of Arms
for the Beech Grove American Legion and they served at funerals and marched in every patriotic
parade that Beech Grove had or Indianapolis had. So I saw that a lot, I’d go with him a lot. When I was a kid growing up when they were
practicing I’d march with them and all that. So it wasn’t that I had this, I don’t
think I had a unrealistic aspect of it but I had a very strong patriotic aspect of serving
the country. My dad was appreciative of veterans also,
very, very much so. I grew up with that realizing “He 12 appreciates
that you served.” And so I just didn’t realize what it would
open up between us when I came back. Chris: Did you join the Legion or any veteran’s
organization when you came back? 14:26:46.19 Ronald: You know I didn’t, I
just, I felt like I didn’t have time. I went to college then I went in the ministry
and it was so busy. I did join the Disabled American Veterans
because I didn’t know that I could get any kind of compensation for my injuries and I
was having trouble with them. So the VA contacted me and said come in for
a review and they gave me a 10 percent disability, or I shouldn’t say disability, compensation,
only on my wrist. And a friend said “You need to go to the
DAV” and when I did they said “Are you serious? You’ve got a wrist you can’t hardly bend
and you’ve got shrapnel in your knee and you’ve got shrapnel in your elbow.” So the DAV went to bat for me and over the
next several years it was raised to about 40 percent of a compensation. And I never really went to get any more. It’s the same it’s always been so I just
leave it with that. Chris: There are obviously the physical wounds
that you and your friend sustained and other veterans as well. What about the mental wounds, did you need
support, did you feel like you needed support at any point? 14:28:15.05 Ronald: I never knew what to call
it at the time when I came out, we all did the same thing, we just put it behind us and
we went on with life, got married, raised families. But it was there. And the mental wounds were, I didn’t wake
up at night and, my friend did, he’d wake up in sweats and having nightmares. There wasn’t a day go by, and not many days
even now that you don’t think about it. It’s there, but I don’t have nightmares
or anything like that. But the wounds years ago were really excruciating
because I didn’t, I felt like I should do something. I’d say “Should I have looked up Sergeant
Joe Widded’s family and let them know, you know, he was a hero, he risked his life to
pull me in that hole and got killed doing it. 19-year-old kid I pulled up and held in my
arms until the medic could get there and he died. And so I think should I have looked his family
up. So those kind of emotional wounds you carry
and you wonder. And I think I found healing when we moved
back to Indiana and I went down to Bedford, my wife knew, I said “If I ever move to
Indiana I’m going to go put flowers every Memorial Day on Smittie’s grave. And his sisters happened to come to the grave
after I was there and saw the flowers. I’d left my name on them, I just said “Your
Buddy Ron Whitlock, Fox 230.” And they Goggled my name, found out I lived
in Anderson and called me. And as it turned out he was from a family
of about eleven brothers and sisters. They called them all together, I mean their
kids, their grandkids, all that. It was like a family reunion and asked if
my family would come and meet with them. And what amazed me was every one of the girls
but the youngest one who was really born after he was killed married a minister, and every
one of the brothers became a minister. I mean that was amazing to me, you know, that
like, because he was such a, he was just a unique individual. And so that became a healing, we get together
every year, we go put flowers on his grave, we meet at Spring Mill State Park, that’s
where they’re all from, Bedford area. 13 They stay in a lodge all night, you know
overnight, we eat at the lodge there. So we do that every year and it really has
become a connection and a real satisfying thing. So that’s the reason I introduced my friend
to them because he knew Smittie as well and they were good friends. It has really helped heal his PTSD, I mean
that’s from his own words, and he admits that. So there’s come a healing but in my early
days I just kept forgetting about it. I really never told anybody I served in Vietnam,
the family knew, because of the period of time, you know, people would look at you like
you just got out of prison for mass murder or something like that. So you just didn’t tell anybody, if I worked
a job I never told them, I just went on. And I think that caused a lot of guys to bottle
up until later in life. Chris: There was a, certainly a scar across
society as well at the time and most Americans throughout the 70’s and 80’s just tried
to put the experiences behind them and not touch the scar, not reopen the wound. But when the Gulf, the Gulf War came along
in 1990 Vietnam veterans started to come forward at that time and tell their stories and say
“Don’t forget us. We have stories we need to tell too.” Did you find that experience to be true as
well? 14:32:39.26 Ronald: My wife was the first
to notice it. I guess I didn’t at the time but the Gulf
War, and I would set in front of the TV and watch every detail going on in the Gulf War. And one day she said “You know I think this
is causing some resurgent memories.” And I said “What are you talking about?” And she said “There’s nowhere we can drive”,
she wasn’t complaining she was just matter of fact telling me. She said “There’s nowhere we can drive
that you don’t tell me a story. And you’ll smell diesel and you’ll say
you know that reminds me of, you know, or something like that. Or you see some kids playing in a ditch and
you’ll say you know, I remember.” And she said “You’re, it’s all coming
back to you like I’ve never seen.” But it was the Gulf War that I must have,
kind of caused that resurgence. And my friend that has PTSD, his PTSD didn’t
really surface severely until after the Gulf War. And then it just overwhelmed him. I think all those memories finally flooding
out that you’ve not dealt with yet. Chris: What would you say, I mean probably
the wounding, but was there a moment when you were in Vietnam that was the scariest? 14:34:07.08 Ronald: There were too many, but
there were some that were, and some of them were in ridiculous situations. But there was one they sent when I became
Squad Leader and they sent my squad out front of the company for what’s called a Listening
Post, an LP. And you go way out, you’re supposed to go
out maybe a thousand meters but I felt mature enough and leader enough that I said “We’re
not going that far.” Besides, we were in the DMZ when that was
taking place. I mean we’re looking across the river at
North Vietnam. And we knew the enemy was there and we were
chasing them all over the place. And so we were setting, we were out there
that night and I’ve never forgot it, I heard movement coming in the jungle. And it’s dark and the moonlight you could
see and I began to see silhouettes and you could hear the clanking of their canteens
and their rifles and it was one after another so I knew it was a heavily armed company and
we had maybe 5 of us. And we were laying 14 down and I was telling
everybody to be still. And I can even remember in the moonlight seeing
this, and he was a brand new kid had come in next to us, and he was nervous and had
his finger on his M-16 trigger. And I reached over and just tapped his finger
and he realized that meant get it off that because if he would have accidentally fired
it would have been over. So we, they moved across in front of us and
I would say maybe the length of this entire house right here, they were that close. And I mean I was the Squad leader and everybody
is keying off of me but I want to tell you honestly if I had to stand up I don’t think
I could have. My knees felt like rubber and you’re literally
looking through the dark at these guys that don’t know you’re there and so we radioed
the company, we couldn’t talk. But the system was you clicked and if you
kept clicking regular they knew you‘re getting attention and you couldn’t talk. And they would say “Do you see enemy? One click for yes, two for no.” So I clicked yes. And then they said “Click one click for
how many meters they are out in front of you.” So I clicked how many meters I thought they
were out there. And then they said “Click one if you can
ambush them, two if you can’t.” I didn’t even click, ‘cause I thought
my Lieutenant was fairly new and I thought “He‘s gonna want me to, I’m not even
going to answer that one.” You know, response. And I didn’t. But it was, I don’t know how the rest of
the guys felt, and I was thinking the whole time “What would Smittie do?” He would appear to be the leader because everybody’s
nervous I know. There were probably some wet spots on the
ground when we got through. You’re that nervous. And it was probably an hour before all of
that ended, they went on. And we were holding our breath. I, our hearts, at least mine was, was beating
so hard I thought they, somebody could hear it, just thumping. And so that was probably a tremendously frightening
moment to realize that at any time they could, they were heavily armed, they could have turned
on us easily. Our job wasn’t to ambush, our job was to
be what it is, a listening post and look for enemy movement. And sometimes when there was opportunity you
ambush. But that wasn’t one of them. You know, that was tremendously frightening. And another time, you know it’s the humorous
things, my Squad Leader told me when I was first over there we were in an area where
there was huge elephant leaves down this hillside and the mountain went on up and huge trees. And he said “Get on the side of that hill
and just be a guard out there for us in the flank. “ And there was nothing to hide behind and
I’m thinking “I sitting right out here on this steep hillside”, there was nothing,
not even a tree, to get behind. And I said “If enemy come up down below
where am I gonna hide?” So it was really nervous for me. And the guys walking up the trail got sniped
at by automatic weapons. Nobody was hit but the bullets coming through
the treetops over our heads went over my head too you know, cracking, hitting trees and
things like that. And I just remember it shocked me so bad I
picked my feet up and went all the way down that mountain side, like a kid sliding down. And I just remember elephant leaves busting,
busting and busting and I couldn’t get back up when I got down that hill. And I really got a panic, you know one of
those, I mean I could sense it. I was panicked. My feet were pumping, I was clawing, but there
was nothing to hold to. And then in rational thinking you think okay,
I’m at the bottom of the hill just stop, just figure out a way to work my way back
up. But I was so panicked I was trying to claw
my way up and I’m glad nobody saw me because I was embarrassed, personally embarrassed,
you know, that I’d panicked so bad when that happened. If I look back on it now it’s kind of chuckling
‘cause I wiped out a bunch of nice elephant ear plants that, all the way down that hillside. 15 Chris: Well it shows the, I guess the full
arc of your growth, you know. One of my questions was how did you feel you
changed, you know. When you’re at the listening post you’re
like there’s no way I’m engaging but you had command of your emotions and you knew
to stay calm and at least exude the sense of leadership. When you’re green and you’re sliding down
the hill you panic. So I guess my question, if I can form one,
looking back 50 years how do you see how you changed in that one year of service? 14:40:53.24 Ronald: This is amazing to me
anyways, because I never, when I was in high school I was somewhat of an introvert. Actually I would pass out if I was giving
an oral report. And the teacher’s always said you don’t
have to give an oral report. I came out of the Marine Corps and I wasn’t
the same in my, I go back to my friends and there been going to college or just getting
out of college and it wasn’t the same. My emotional and maturity was 20 years older
in perspective. And so I went to college and became a, and
got thrown right into Senior Pastor of a church. And I look back on that now and most guys
like now when I at my age I had men who coming out of college that are learning and they
mentored under me. So they became an Associate or a Youth Minister
or something like that. And I mentored them for 3 or 4 years, or 5
years. And they became Senior Pastor. And I came right out of college and went right
into it. And my wife even commented, she said “You
know, there was a difference of perspective” when I came back. I believe it matured me. I believe that it gave me, awakened skills
that I didn’t know I had, leadership skills, mentoring skills, I just didn’t know I had
those. I mean college certainly was educational and
helpful but I think those things really opened the box on those other things. I got the Cross of Gallantry, I still don’t
know why. But I think my new commander that came in
gave it to me because we went through some actions and I kept everybody level-headed
and we pressed forward and won the day. And just before I was rotating home I get
this notice that I was going to be awarded this. And to this day I don’t know why I got it
because it’s in Vietnamese, it’s a Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. Not many years ago I had a guy in my church
that was a Vietnamese refugee and so I said “Hey, can you interpret this for me.” He even had trouble interpreting it, it’s
kind of jumbled. So I don’t know, I only know my commander
I think must have put me up for it. And I look back now thinking boy, those guys
I served with they were, I wasn’t a hero, I was a survivor. But they were mentors, mature mentors, and
I think that really affected my life, leadership. Chris: You decided to be a mentor yourself
in a different way, but… 14:44:06.02 Ronald: Yes that’s true. One fella that still is living in, retired
policeman now from Pennsylvania, Sergeant Quinn, you could have made a movie out of
him for instance. And that guy like Smittie so impacted my life. One time we were in the jungle for so long
we’d never had a hot meal, we only had meals out of cans. And they wanted us to run a security on trucks
going supplies into Khe Sanh, Khe Sanh had been opened up so that was supposed to be
a relief I suppose. We got on these trucks and bumped our way
all the way into Khe Sanh and when we got there he looked over and there was mountains
of supplies, canned hamburgers, vegetables, I mean it was just unbelievable. And so he said, told one of our guys, said
“Get this truck.” He got the driver and said “Can we use your
truck to back it 16 down on those supplies?” Driver said “Well yes”. And so he said “Everybody get any supply
you want, I’ll take care of the rest.” So when we got down there we’re loading
that truck like crazy with supplies and he had a clipboard, and he’s acting like he’s
checking everything off. And when we got the truck literally full,
even a guy come out of the tent and watched us for a while and he’s checking off like
he’s got authority to do this we took off in that truck and we got back to our company
it looked like Christmas. We passed out supplies, I mean fruit and hamburgers
and just all sorts of stuff like that. And I look back on that and think, guys like
that became leadership mentors, I mean they, I would have never done that, I thought “Oh
no, I’m going to get in trouble if I do that.” That guy, you know, he just did it and he
did one thing like that after another and you could almost make a movie out of him. So guys like that really impacted my life,
to think things through and do what needed to be done sort of thing. Chris: I’m gonna check my notes real quick. Is there anything I’ve missed, Richard or
Ron or Sarah? Richard: From what I can tell you’ve covered
a lot Chris. Chris: I try to keep it within a window and
not go too long. Any final thoughts, Ron, we leave it to you. 14:46:49.21 Ronald: The only final thoughts
to me and if I could, and this probably isn’t veteran thing but it’s a personal thing
with me, and I shared with you a little bit so if I could share that thought because it
really impacted my life personally, think it’s made a difference in the way I think
and do things as well. But I wasn’t raised in church but I started
going to church as a teenager, in high school, a senior, and that’s where I met my wife. And she couldn’t date me so the only way
I could see her was go to church. So I went to church Sunday morning, Sunday
night, Wednesday, if they had volunteer anything I went to church because I wanted to see her. And I became a Christian. And I can remember on that hill I was wounded
on, Foxtrot Ridge as it was named later on, they wrote, there’s been a book written
about it called “Defense of Foxtrot Ridge”. I remember that evening we set up and it was
hot, we climbed all the way to the top of that thing and it was slipping and sliding. And I sat there and I was depressed and I
thought “I don’t think I’m going to live through this.” Friends that were there before me had been
wounded or killed and I just didn’t know. So I got off by myself, I mean that’s not
easy on top of a hill and guys are digging holes and everything, but I kinda got off
in a little brush by myself and I got a Gideon Bible that had been handed to me by Gideons. And this is the gist of what I said to myself
and I was praying to the Lord. I didn’t really know how to pray, I didn’t
know a lot about Christianity, I just became a Christian before I went over there. I said “Lord I don’t know if I’m going
to live or die, but I do want to know are you real?” It was that simple, just are you real. And I opened the bible and it opened, it was
a New Testament, at Psalm. And I opened that little bible and it opened
to Psalm 121. I couldn’t have told you what book was what
in the bible even at the time. But it opened to Psalms 121 and I read that. It says “My help doesn’t come from the
mountain top (which is what we were on), my help comes from the Lord, who neither slumbers
or sleeps.” And he’ll not allow your foot to slip and
he’ll not 17 allow the sun to harm you by day, and it was blistering hot, or the moon
by night. And he will watch your coming and going forevermore. And so I thought “Wow, that said so much
to me”, I mean it really encouraged me. But a helicopter flew over and dropped a net
full of supplies and ammunition and food and there was some mail in there and somebody
saw my name, yelled down and said “Whitlock you got a letter.” And it was from my grandmother on my mom’s
side who was a wonderful Christian lady. Probably had a lot of influence on me growing
up though we didn’t go to church. But she was a saint. And I opened the letter and she’s talking
about Indiana, what it was like here, the weather. But at the end of it she said I’ve been
praying for you. And she said if you can get a hold of a bible
God’s given me a scripture promise. And she said turn to Psalm 121. That’s when I really felt, that didn’t
make me a Christian, or I didn’t become a Christian at that moment, I’d already
committed my life to do that. But that was a defining moment because I realized
for that to be put together, for me to open that bible at that moment and my grandmother
to write a letter that takes a week to get there, and for them to intersect at the exact
same time in my emotional moment, that was a defining moment. And I knew that I knew then what I was going
to do with my life. So my response was “Lord, if I don’t make
it I’m yours. And if I do I’m yours.” And so I’ve never looked back on that. Now God has given me a lot of other moments
but that was my first one as a young person initially in the Christian faith. So I always like to tell that story because
it really, it was the next morning that I got wounded. So after reading that then that next morning
we got up and were heading down that hill when I was wounded. So it’s a memorable moment for me. Chris: And that kind of set your feet on the
path for your future really. 14:51:57.01 Ronald: It really did, it really
did. And I don’t look back on that, I mean that
was a defining moment I don’t regret because it could have been anywhere else God could
do that I know that. But it was for me it was a tremendous moment
that defined who I decided I was going to be the rest of my life. I share that with my kids, I’ve shared it,
you know, with family and that sort of thing as well because I want them to know what propelled
me to do what I did. So I’m not ashamed to tell that part of
it, you know. Chris: Good story to end on I think, for us. Before we quit, Richard, and I’ve forgotten,
I wanted to get your final rank. 14:52:54.01 Ronald: Okay. Chris: When you exited the Marine Corps what
was your rank? 14:52:58.24 Ronald: I was E-5, a Sergeant. Been promoted to a Sergeant. I already knew, this wasn’t a defining moment
just a unique moment, but I already knew that when I got out of the Marine Corps I was gonna
go study the ministry. But I had a year left, they promoted me to
Sergeant and my wife and I were getting married so she was going to be a Marine wife for one
year. And my commander called me in, 1969, and said
they’re bringing troops back 18 and they have too many and we’re going to have to
let some guys out. We’re going on a point system and you’ve
got the most points. Do you want out of the Marine Corps? Nobody could have ever figured that scenario. So I got out of the Marine Corps and I worked
for Eli Lilly for 8 months and then went out to Colorado Springs to go to college. A year in advance from when I thought I would
be doing all that. Chris: So that was kind of a head start really
to your career. 14:54:11.14 Ronald: It really did, and though
the Marine Corps enticed me heavily, they offered me a rank up, Staff Sergeant, they
offered a pretty good bonus, duty where I wanted it if I’d stay in. And I think my wife, well she wasn’t my
wife then we were getting ready to get married, I think I would have been injured, she would
have beat me above my head and shoulders if I’d have said I’ll stay in another four
years. Chris: Yea, that’s a decision you make together. 14:54:41.21 Ronald: That’s exactly right. Chris: Well Ron, on behalf of WIPB and Ball
State University and our country, I thank you for your time today and thank you for
your service to our country. And I appreciate you sitting down and talking
to us. Thank you very much. 14:54:57.00 Ronald: Thank you for letting
me have the privilege of being part of it.
