Mike Wallace - Abba Eban Interview April 12,1958

good evening tonight we go after a story that has been thousands of years in the making the story of Israel the country which celebrates its tenth anniversary this month our guest Abba Eban Israel's ambassador to the United States and its chief delegate to the United Nations if you're curious to hear ambassador even's views on the recent mergers by Arab nations which are hostile to Israel his views on Egypt's President Nasser and the Arab refugee problem on American Jewry and the charge that Israel threatens world peace with the policy of territorial expansion we'll go after those stories in a moment and now to our story our even Israel's ambassador to the United States is a scholar a linguist a persuasive orator a veteran statesman at the age of 43 he has been called the voice of Israel which is also the title of his book tonight in order to clarify Israel's problems her hopes and her aspirations we shall put two ambassador even questions raised by Israel's critics some of them by her enemies mr. ambassador in its 10 years as a nation Israel has been involved in repeated violence major border incidents to open wars with the Arabs the first in 48 the last in 56 what do you foresee for the next 10 years do you foresee continuing violence well mr. Wallace the last ten years have not only been years of violence they have been incomparable years of joyous creation of sovereignty restored other people gathered in of a land revived of democracy established but there has also been violence imposed by the hostility of our neighbors for our second decade we devoutly hope for a period of peaceful consolidation we hope that there will be no recurrence of the violent conflicts which marked our first decade about that do we and our kindred neighboring people will devote all our efforts to the development of our respective countries and of our common region all over the Middle East too though will you not find that the huge majority of the Arab peoples are interested in the extermination of Israel we find that the of Arab countries still articulate the aim of our extermination but I think it's beyond their powers to achieve it and of course in any international system which respect law and morality there must be resistance to any such policy but do you think that we are currently going through a lull before the storm our former secretary of the Air Force Thomas Finn letter told Zionist leaders in America just a month ago that the present Middle East situation is a law before a possible storm and he added that we have good reason he said to be apprehensive over the ultimate direction of the Arab mergers I think is great degree of vigilance is called for so long as Arab policy continues to be devoted if only verbally to the vision of Israel's destruction on the other hand if this lull is you call it if this tranquillity can be preserved if passions are calmed if Israel gives an ever-increasing demonstration of her permanence and stability I don't exclude the possibility that the present llao might merge into a climate more conducive to peace well a lull will emerge into a climate more conducive to peace if perhaps some of the issues behind the arab-israeli hostility can be settled let's take a look at them first the refugee problem an estimated 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were left homeless during the arab-israeli war of 48 Israel refuses to readmit them they live in bitterness and such men as historian arnold toynbee has said this the evil deeds committed by the zionist jews against the arabs are comparable to crimes committed against the jews by the nazis how do you feel about that well about professor Toynbee's a statement i can only repeat what i've written that it is a monstrous blasphemy here he takes the massacre of millions of our men women and children and he compares it to the plight of Arab refugees alive on their kindred soil suffering certain anguish but of course possessed of the supreme gift of life this equation between Massacre and temporary suffering which can easily be alleviated is I think a distortion of any historic perspective what but the refugee problem mr. Wallace isn't the cause of tension the refugee problem is the reserve Habanera policy aneri policy which created the problem by the invasion of israel which perpetuates it by refusing to accommodate them into their expanding labor market and which refuses to solve a problem which they have the full capacity to solve there is I think a basic immorality in this attitude of Arab governments to their own kinsmen whose plight they could relieve immediately once the will to relieve it existed all world opinion admits that the problem can only be solved on a regional basis by opening the vast resources of the Arab world to this Arab refugee population and if there were such an effort on their part to approach a regional settlement Israel would make its view and just contribution of course the problem of the refugees is alive of the problem of territorial expansion on the part of Israel a major Arab spokesman here in the United States dr. fiers Hayek says this he says the area of the territories held by Israel today exceeds by about 40% the area of the territories given Israel by the United Nations most of this added area he says was taken by force and should therefore be relinquished by Israel well I think this gentlemen need not lose any sleep at night worrying about whether the State of Israel is too big really there is nothing more grotesque or eccentric in the international life of our times than the doctrine that little Israel 8,000 square miles an area should become even smaller in order that the vast out of Empire should still further expand there are really two aspects mr. Wallace to every territorial problem the legal aspect and the model aspect the law is clear the present territorial frontiers rest on agreements between Israel and the Arab states which cannot be changed except by consent the Arab states have signed those agreements which give them and us a veto power against any territorial change to which we do not agree so that there's no legal abuse in the present situation well you are the Arabs have hardly signed a territorial agreement we have that involves what what territory Israel took as a result of their 48 war oh yes we have the present agreements between Israel and the Arabs dates delimit the precise territory which we hold now Israel does not possess a single inch of territory beyond the valid agreements which she has signed and which the United Nations has ratified and under the arms of an honest yes blending final subtle yes but in that final settlement as it is written in the agreements no changes can be accepted without the consent of both parties so we are within our rights and they are within their rights in accepting or refusing any change so there's nothing whatever illegal about any aspect of the present territorial question but the model issue is the most important here well now that's the point that I would like to talk to if I may the fact remains when we talk about morality the fact remains that Israel benefited territorially from a war from armed violence yes I'm glad to say that I hope that whenever countries wage a war of aggression as the Arab states did that they should be the losers by waging that war of aggression as a member of the Judaic faith which cherishes social justice and morality do you believe that any country should profit territorially from violence mr. Wallace I'm not going into the history of other countries and I'm not going to analyze how the frontiers of countries which I've seen or in which I have served were achieved but we have certainly achieved our territorial settlement as a result of agreements not as a result of violence it was they who decreed the method by which the present frontiers were achieved they rejected the 1947 recommendation we said let us have boundaries by international agreement they said let us fix our boundaries by war and they made the war but following the war we reached agreements and these agreements define our boundaries and we and they have agreed that they may not be changed except by mutual consent but much more important even than history and law is this basic model question here we are 8,000 square miles perhaps the smallest state in the international community here they are 11 sovereign states 3 million square miles 400 times our area and we have the fantastic doctrine I will it it isn't sponsored by any serious government but one does hear it the doctrine that this vast sated fat huge lavish Arab Empire should expand at the expense of tiny Israel no party in the world need lie awake at night worrying about whether Israel is too big when you talk about the huge sated bath the Arab state the 11 sovereign states it is barely possible that you're guilty of some overstatement there is also in that area tremendous poverty tremendous desolation yes I'm speaking mister one is purely in territorial terms but they really have no reason to envy us our 8,000 square miles mr. ambassador do you do you foresee further territorial expansion by Israel when I don't like the word further mr. Wallace because as I've said our present boundaries rest upon agreements beyond which we have not encroached but we certainly do not desire to expand our frontiers I doubt the reality of this issue we are prepared to accept a guaranteed settlement with the Arab states on the present frontiers are they so prepared I wonder whether the issue isn't one of our of expansion here sit IV accredited representative of Israel and I declare that Israel will sign a peace treaty with the Arab states on the present frontier now you get an Arab ambassador sitting here to say that he will have a settlement with Israel on the present frontier and you'll really have a story course there is one political party and a fairly substantial political party within Israel the harab party with 15 seats in your parliament to the Ben Gurion parties forty seats one of the Herod's major spokesman dr. Joseph Schekman wrote this recently he said tsiyon ISM is more than Israel for Zionism Israel's present territory and population are but a partial accomplishment and the herald party is dedicated to territorial expansion is that not so yes but when you have said mr. Wallace that they have 15 members dedicated to expansion you're really saying in other words are there 115 members not dedicated to expansion in other words 85% of the Israeli electorate has put its trust in parties which do not advocate territorial expansion therefore I think one can say that within our democratic process the concept of territorial expansion has been rejected let's move along recently in the Middle East I spoke with the president of the National Bank of Egypt Hussein Fahmy who's a member of the Egyptian Economic Council me told us this he said Israel as a nation is doomed to go bankrupt because the resources are pitifully limited some olive and orange groves a little potash no fuels no raw materials to speak of and it's industry he said it's unable to make enough product to export at a significant profit Israel can exist only on charity from other nations what's your answer well I'm deeply touched by this gentleman's concern but I will say with a definiteness which may surprise you that there is no reason whatever for any skepticism about Israel's economic future let me just say what the main facts are which build up into a certainty success take seven years 1951 to 1957 during that period our population has increased by four percent per year in other words by some thirty percent in seven years population increase of 30 percent what has happened to our national product in those seven years it has increased five seventy five percent what has happened to our export trade it has increased by two hundred and fifty percent from a figure of seventy five million dollars a year export earnings in nineteen fifty one to two hundred and three million dollars export earnings now in other words all the trends all the lines are converging towards success and we think that our difficulties are are transient these are impressive basic facts they are impressive facts but the fact of the matter is that the the balance between imports and exports is still way in favor of imports oh yes there is a very imposing deficit in the balance of payments it becomes less imposing if you analyze it the New York time it includes if I may just surely refer to this all the machinery that we're importing all the capital goods all the tractors the machines the irrigation pipes to make our productive our economy productive these are all included on the deficit side in other words like renovating your house service we're like a man who's furnishing a workshop while he's building the furniture and the equipment of course his expenditures are heavy but he's incurring those expenditures in the cause of ultimate to fruition the New York Times summed up your economic problems at the end of 57 in this fashion they led the trade deficit remain between 300 million and 350 million dollars which meant that for another year Israel continued to depend upon the astronomical contributions of world jewelry and particularly United States jewelry to keep her head above water we're now faced here with talk at least and probably the fact of a recession were there to be a serious recession not only here in the United States but in the world this could be disastrous for Israel could it not well we do depend for this transitional period in which our economy is being built upon external aid and of course if we were cut off from that aid or we would suffer but we would not be alone in that our economic future depends on very clear guiding posts agriculture we can't become independent of all agricultural imports except a few staple products minerals to give you an example we are earning one or two million dollars a year from our potash resources this could become 15 million dollars for that single item industry where we're opening new markets in Asia and Africa and science where we look to the new fuels and the new forces of nature to compensate for our relative scarcity in conventional fuels talking of America's involvement all of this because of the arab-israeli conflict the United States it finds itself on the horns of a dilemma we want Israel's survival and friendship but we also need the friendship of 40 million Arabs who might otherwise turn to Russia do you think that it is in the United States best interest therefore to befriend Israel and risk thereby losing the entire Middle East to Russia I think mr. Wallace your country's only cause if I might suggest it in response to your invitation it's to follow a policy of constructive friendship for Israel and for the Arab states America has sponsored and stimulated the independence of many Arab states you would have been forced to your own traditions of justice and equality if you would enable them to become independent in 11 countries and not enabled our people at the climax of its agony to achieve its modern domain of independence I think that if your policy makes it clear that you seek the friendship of Israel and off her neighbors not at the expense of each other and that you regard these friendships as reconcilable within your policy I believe that that would be respected by us and by them you don't believe that friendship for Israel on the one hand and the Arab states on the other are necessarily mutually self cancelling I think not mr. Wallace in many countries managed as your own country does to reconcile these two elements in its policy ambassador even in a moment I would like to ask you about the role of the American Jew in Israel and Zionism future according to a leading anti Zionist here in the United States Rabbi Elma Berger the Zionist Israeli access he says imposes upon Jews outside of Israel Americans of Jewish faith included a status of double nationality which he charges is both artificial and dangerous in a moment I'd like to get your opinion of that charge and we'll get abba evens answer in just 60 seconds now then mr. even regarding the American Jew and the State of Israel as I said the anti Zionist rabbi dr. Elmer Berger has written the Zionist Israeli access imposes upon Jews outside of Israel Americans of Jewish faith included a status of double nationality and status which he deploys what's your answer well mr. Wallace I have so many pressing duties that I don't follow the wisdom of this gentleman perhaps as closely as I should I would only say this that we ask no Allegiance we seek no loyalty from anyone who is not a citizen of Israel there is a kinship of spirit of emotion of historic memory between us and though who share our faith throughout the world if American Druze wish to express that kinship it is for them so to do if not then that also is their decision we as a free nation speaking to a free nation set forth the reasons why we believe they will find it infinitely rewarding to draw on our common heritage and to sustain us in our great historic enterprise but it is their decision and we impose nothing on them at all Joran Prime Minister David ben-gurion wrote back in 1953 this he said when a Jew in America speaks of our government to his fellow Jews he usually means the government of Israel while the Jewish public in various countries view the Israeli ambassadors as their own representatives wouldn't that appear any way to support rabbi Berger state I think not mr. Wallace I'm sure the Prime Minister was speaking in these terms of historic sympathy we do evoke a certain affection certain impulses of responsibility but the clear division of political allegiances I think fully understood on both sides we impose nothing upon them we seek as I've said no allegiance from them there is a kinship of history which both day and we seek voluntarily to express and for which there are so many examples both in our own tradition and in yours what a Jew in your estimation would a Jew be any of the lesser Jew if he were opposed to Zionism and to Israel well we're dealing here with subjective terms of not more of a true war less of a drew I think it is for Druze outside of Israel to determine the exact degree and measure of their intimacy than with us we believe that Israel's emergence is the greatest collective event in the history of the Jewish people and that there is no pride and no dignity for a jewel such as those to be found in giving aid and sustenance to Israel in the great hour of her researchers I still if I may say so sir do not feel that you've been responsive to that question can a Jew be a good Jew and still be opposed to Zionism and Israel I think that's for him to decide I would say it is but in youris in my own personal interpretation I would say that a man who opposed the State of Israel and the great movement which brought it about there would be in revolt against the most constructive and creative events in the life of the Jewish people and it's a fact that the great majority of our kinsmen everywhere are exalted and uplifted by these events but Judaism is a religion so it is a religion and it is a people hood and it is a civilization and it is a faith and it is a memory it is a world of thought and of spirit and of action and it cannot be restrictive ly to find therefore in your estimation again to be a good Jew one has to be more than just a religious practicing Jew one has to enter the religion and the peoplehood at one in the same time to be a fulfilled do I believe that religion has been the field in which the genius of our people has been most profoundly stirred about that being Jewish goes beyond this vital domain and covers a whole complex of spiritual and other emotions and there to live with in the fullness of Jewish history is a deeply satisfying experience recently David ben-gurion said I still don't believe it's possible to enjoy the full Jewish life outside of Israel well alone to be quite frank mr. Wallace so we think highly of our country we believe that we have achieved a reunion of the conditions of its greatness this was the people this was the land and this was the language out of whose previous reunion a great event flowed for us and for mankind and we believe that the perfection of our destiny in the world can only be found through this great act of restoration which has happened in our lifetime we wish well to our brethren and outside our frontiers but we do believe that there is a special historic and spiritual quantity in the life of a free Jewish citizen in Israel reborn I thank you sir for coming and spending this half-hour with us I congratulate with us I congratulate you upon your 10th anniversary thank you very much

Channel: OldLandNewLand

Views: 29,413

Keywords: Mike, Wallace, Abba, Eban, Israel, Anniversary, Israeli, Ambassador

Id: 9nVW09jdNng

Length: 22min 26sec (1346 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 02 2013