Michael Heiser - Two Powers of the Godhead - May 4, 2013

all right cuz Bren said we want to talk about divine plurality and specifically how we want to try to move from just the little baby step idea that there is such a thing as divine plurality in the Hebrew Scriptures onto the linkage of the attributes and person and titles of Yahweh the God of Israel to one other particular Elohim because when you do that when that becomes evident in the text what you're going to see is that throughout the Hebrew Scriptures there was a an invisible Yahweh and then there was a visible Yahweh as well sometimes they're in the same scene together many times they're separate but again you get both and there are again linkages where there's this Tunis going on that is once you sort of know what to look for it becomes kind of transparent so I want to go through that it's going to be quick you can get the slides I'm going to send them to Brent and you'll make sure that you have access to all of them so we're going to go through this a bit rapidly for the sake of time but don't worry about that because you will there's nothing copyright here you can he'll have the slides and that's not going to be an issue so next slide is this a problem or a solution and again it's very natural especially if people have not heard of the ideas they're going to think well is this a problem for monotheism what about Jesus what about the Godhead again New Testament thinking if I affirm this stuff in the Old Testament you're telling me about what how does that affect what I affirm about Jesus next slide I would say the answer is again in short form is that Yahweh is an Elohim but no Elohim is Yahweh that sort of takes care of the mono theism issue we need to affirm and note that Yahweh is on pelagic Lee unique there is only one of him ontology is a nice fancy academic word for being okay what somebody is the we all have our own ontology you know what that which makes us us if I can put it that way and Yahweh is unique so we need to affirm that not only for sake of the Shema an Old Testament thinking that among all the Elohim there's this one that is completely unique but that's going to become an issue when this second figure the second Yahweh figure begins to emerge because that second figure is going to turn out to be Yeshua Jesus and so ontological II they're going to be the same and they need to be the same they are the same again divine plurality next slide I view as a first baby step toward Godhead thinking and we're and we're going to start thinking Tunis now let's go through the next slide we all know this verse here o Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one and there are those again when I give this presentation I think well isn't this a violation of the Shema it's not again I don't want to rabbit trail over that again but then if you go to the next slide John 1:18 you have to ask yourself how could a Jew affirm the Shema hear o Israel and then the wording and then embrace this no one has ever seen God the only God who is at the father's side on a wait a minute of God at the father's I thought the father was God how can there be a God at the father's side it's not a no no but it's the only gonna I mean how do we wrap our minds around that especially if we're Jewish because again the Shema is at the core of our thinking next slide so the question is how is it that a first century Jew who is so committed to monotheism again the the elevation of Yahweh above all gods so committed that he or she would choose death rather than worship the Roman Emperor or a Roman god or any God how could that person embrace Jesus of Nazareth as God in the flesh alongside the God of Israel is there some sort of conflict here the answer is because Jews themselves had a belief in two powers in heaven prior to the New Testament period what I mean by that is this trajectory this thought that there was a Godhead is not new to them what is new to them is the claim that this person standing in front of me who I know is from Nazareth I know his mom and dad this person standing in front of me is claiming to be that part of that God had that second Yahweh figure that I know from my Old Testament that was the difficulty the idea of Godhead was not it's just that the notion that he's here and not only is he here because he was he was around the Old Testament too but he actually passed through his mother's birth canal and was born a human being that was a big deal that was dramatic it was different so the base idea they were familiar with that and I'm going to show you why next slide let's take a look at some Old Testament passages and I'm going to begin here with the the passages that if you were to go back and I'm going to I'm going to show you a book in case you're interested in this subject you can go back through Jewish material here if you were to look at the rabbinical discussion of how Godhead thinking how this two idea that Christians were using how that became a heresy within the Jew which community if you were to read that material your your perception of that would begin at certain passages I'm going to show you a few of these Genesis 19:24 next slide we look at this passage of course I have the divine name in all caps give you a chance to read it is there anything odd about it I'll give you it give you a hint next slide the divine name occurs twice and it's how can you have the highway raining down all this stuff from Yahweh I mean that it I mean you can you can kind of deal with that but it just feels a little odd feels a little awkward and again some people kind of notice this and I wonder what's going on with that it just sounds a little odd another one aim is for 11:00 this is a little harder to spot give you a chance to read through this I have wrought destruction on you did you catch it okay the speaker is first person the speaker is God so why is God referring to God in the third person you think that's funny this is not the only place that happens if it again when when people are reading the text closely they look at that why is that that wording is really kind of odd you know Yahweh referring to it to God what what's going on with that Genesis 22 now this is the Akkad ah so it's very familiar again within the Jewish context if you look at this you know God tested Abraham and said to him take your son Alfre was a burnt offering but the angel Lord called to him from him blah salon and so forth you catch the phrasing I'll give another couple seconds here to read it go to the next slide and then you're going to do some animations here wait till the slide is filled up there we go so God tested Abraham the angel the Lord called to him he said I know that you fear God but then it ends you've not withheld your only son from me whose line is it anyway I mean you know who's who's speaking the who and when and it it just has this odd sort of feel to it this mixing of 1st and 3rd person so they're noticing this now the book that I mentioned is this one it's called two powers in heaven this is written by a Jew Allen Siegel was a professor of Jewish and Talmudic literature he just passed away two years ago I believe he wrote the book back in 1977 it's available in paperback it's still in print and it is a rehearsal of how this idea of two powers in heaven was a part of Judaism in antiquity and be it became a heresy around the second century 100 AD turn so his books just about how that happened and not he you know he was a Jew he thinks it is a heresy because he was a good Jew hey he just doesn't have one you know he knows where all this goes he's not dumb but he's not buying it he doesn't accept you know Jesus but nevertheless he spent a good part of his academic career in this area next slide so summer eats certain passages in the Old Testament sounded of the year like the God of Israel was two they're just two figures going on in here rabbis took note of that again they they were familiar with these texts I'm not showing you anything that his new would be new to them the belief used to be acceptable till around 100 AD and one reason that it was reacted to was because if you have this Godhead idea that sort of helps the Christians make their point so let's just say that that's bad you know let's take that point of our theology and now we will just sort of do away with it because we want everybody in our community to know we don't want to think this way that's not who we are if you want to be that then you got to be a Christian you might as well just jump ship let's talk about Old Testament next slide Old Testament roots we're going to go back and hit some more actually a lot of passages this will be quick so don't take heart don't get discouraged next slide is identifying we'll start with these two issues the phrase the molokai don't I angel of the Lord angel of Yahweh and then this thing or this phrasing referred to as the name Hashem we'll start there so next slide Exodus 3 Moses of course when familiar with this passage the burning bush tending the flock Jethro all that get to verse 2 he goes to see the bush an angel of Yahweh the malecon and I appeared to him in a blazing fire out of a bush he gazed there was a bush all aflame yet the bush was not consumed he said boy I need to go see that we're gonna check this out when Yahweh saw what he was doing so there are two characters in the bush the angel is in the bush but so is is Yahweh okay hold that thought they are both in the bush later in Exodus 23 we see the same figure God speaking to Moses this is Exodus 23 after the crossing of the gone sook I'm sending an angel before you God says to Moses hey I know it's going to be a long trip gonna be lots of hazards but take heart I'm sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and bring you to the place that I made ready paying heed to him and obey Him do not defy him for he will not pardon your offenses why since my name is in him but if you obey Him and do all that I say if you obey Him and do all that I say I will be an enemy to your enemies so on and so forth so this angel is singled out one particular angel and what makes him different is my name is in him okay hold that thought you go to Deuteronomy 12 this name talk shows up a number of places in the Old Testament Hashem as you well know is a academic term here academic alert right here when he's an academic term here this this is a circumlocution it's another way of saying it's another way of referring to Yahweh himself his presence his divine presence shown it's the same individual so this talk shows up a lot and especially in Deuteronomy so the Lord your God will choose amidst all your tribes as his habitation he's going to choose a place to live to dwell to establish his name there and there you are to go and you are to bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices ties and contributions down to verse 11 you must bring everything that I command you to the site where the Lord your God will choose to establish his name next slide look at how the name is used here Psalm 20 may the Lord answer you in the day of trouble may the name of the God of Jacob protect you now the point here is not that if I get in trouble I'm just going to go I don't I am out of the jam no the whole idea is that the presence of God God Himself will protect you who is who is that well it's Hashem what's the problem Shem I don't know I mean it's the same thing same person and again we see we're familiar with this language but we'd often don't really think about what we're reading some trust in chariots summon horses we trust in the name of the Lord our God and it's a reference to him to his present his person not just four consonants hey the four consonants are going to protect me I mean if that's what you're thinking then you've just turned the person of Yahweh into some sort of incantation okay it's not four consonants it's a person that's the point second Samuel six I like this one next slide it's kind of interesting the font never comes out when you play it in PowerPoint so I apologize for the fog it's actually reversed so don't look at the Hebrew it's right on my screen you can look at my screen later but you don't need it David gathered all the chosen men of Israel thirty thousand and David arose and went with all the people who are with him from Bali da ba la da da to bring up from there the Ark of God which is called Hashem the name of the Lord now here's the trick if you go to some translations they will really fudge on this verse you will read things like the ESV has called by the name of the Lord of hosts they'll omit the second one it literally says which is called Shem sham which is called the name the name of the Lord God of hosts or the name who is the Lord God of hosts the ark was called the name now why would that be we always really a wooden object that's what I'm learning from this verse he's just really a wooden up why would the ark be associated with the very presence of God this is not a trick question because because that's where the high priest met him once a year and it's not a trick question they associated that object with the very divine presence because that's where the divine presence pardon the language Sat okay footstool the throne in all this language that's where he was and so they could look at the object watch em okay the presence is there where else would it be next slide Isaiah 37 behold the name of the Lord comes from afar now we're getting language that makes the name sound like a person even more in blazing wrath with a heavy burden his lips his lips the name has lips in its anthropomorphic language and speaking about the name as though the name is a person because well God is a person how else would you talk about it lips full of fury tongue like a devouring fire again I'm giving you the next verse all these verses to go back to Exodus 23 and say that when God says to Moses look got a trip I'm going to send you to this land you know all about it I know you're a little scared it's okay I'll be with you in fact I'm going to send an angel with you and I just want you to know that when you look at that angel when you see him out there my name is in him my presence my essence who and what I am is in that angel that's me out there now God has a fundamental problem we back up a little bit why does the Old Testament do this well God has actually has two problems one is okay if I come to people the way I really am they'll die and that just kind of defeats the whole purpose because I can't really have a conversation if people are just going to start dropping dead so I have a problem the other problem is even if they didn't drop dead since I'm disembodied I don't have a body how will they know I'm there so if you stay alive you can't detect me so let's talk I mean how are you going to do this so this is why God chooses to appear in ways that can be discerned with the human senses so that you know he's there and you're not really getting the full him because if you did you'd drop over dead so it's flame it's clouds and often it's a human it's human form it's this messenger it's this angel that's how you know I'm there I'm in him that's me and just so that you don't drop over dead that's how I'm going to do it so you're safe we've solved both problems you know I'm there and you ain't gonna die it's the whole point God has to be veiled in some way now Deuteronomy 4 we get another interesting little tidbit here verse 37 because he God loved your fathers and shows their offspring after them and brought you out of Egypt with his own presence when a wait I thought it was I don't know who brought them up no no it's the it's the Moloch I don't know who brought them out no no it's the punny the answer is yeah it's all the same thing now I bring this passage in to make the point that my name we can I've been saying the name is the presence the very essence of Yahweh right here we have it it's the punny I mean this is how God again in the Hebrew text refers to God when he meets directly with people okay Moses God met with Moses face to face honey honey you know all that sort of language it's him it's really him it's not like it's not like near God or almost God or sort of 99.9 you know Ivory soap god it's him it really is him again that's going to become important because you're going to hit passages where we're not quite there yet they're both going to be in the same scene now we've already seen that they're both sort of in the same scene because one is referring to the other you've already seen that next slide Deuteronomy 33 it says it again my presence will go with you how much clearer can he be well you know Moses if you're not understanding like if you don't know hashem if you don't know this angel and the punty if those three terms really aren't hitting it well let's talk about divine ontology you know you can I'll give you three credits for that you know we'll meet for fifteen weeks and maybe you'll get an A but you need at least a C to lead him come on he's he can't be much clearer with the language that Moses is going to be able to comprehend it's really him I'm being as clear as I possibly can be it's me next slide judges - now you go - judges - and something really unusual happens I go through the whole thing here because it's you got to follow this one the verse one the mall walk out and I comes up from Gilgal to Boheme and said I brought you up this is judges - I brought you up from Egypt and I took you into the land which I had promised on oath to your fathers who's the speaker my luck I don't I I brought you up from Egypt I said I will never break my covenant when I wait a minute who's covenant wasn't a burning bush thing wasn't nothing I thought it was Yahweh yeah it was don't worry about it it's the same guy I will never break my covenant but you have not obeyed me again the angel is using first-person language here making the point and basically saying look we had this plan I brought you here and you blew it so what anybody remember what happens in this passage the angel says this is my long paraphrase hey look I traveled with you guys for 40 years you got up every morning you saw me every day we ran around the desert listening to you complain and I didn't leave now that we're here actually did what I told you I was going to do and now you're turning to idolatry it's time for me to say goodbye so for the first time in 40-plus years they're going to wake up the next day and he ain't going to be there that's why they called the name of the place beau keen weeping he isn't here he actually left nextslide Genesis 30:1 this is the Jacob incident in the breeding season of the flock I lifted up my eyes and saw in a dream that the goats that mated with the flock were striped and spotted and modeled and the angel of God said to me in the dream Jacob Here I am he said lift up your eyes and see and so on and so forth we get down to verse 13 what does the angel say to him I am the god of Bethel remember when Jacob fled Esau went to Bethel the sacrifice there I am the god of Bethel again how much clearer can it possibly be next slide this is probably my favorite passage in the Old Testament this is this is just too cool for words okay this is when Jacob is blessing the sons of Joseph if you know any Hebrew you're going to get a real you're going to get a buzz out of this one okay if you know any Hebrew grammar so he says Israel Jacob's stretched out his right hand and laid it on Ephraim his head though he was the younger and his left hand on Manasses head thus crossing his hands although Manasseh was the firstborn and he blessed Joseph saying button the god in whose ways my father's Abraham and Isaac walked this is his oath now it's hot' Elohim next line the God who has been my shepherd from my birth to this day again hi eloheem there's one more line guess what angel the angel who has redeemed me from all and here's the kicker may he bless these boys these lads in Hebrew that is APL singular verb form if the writer had wanted to make sure you didn't miss read the text that there's more than one that we need to keep the angel and God separate he could have done so right here but he doesn't you can't fuse the two any tighter than this may the God the God who did this the God who did that the angel may he do XYZ but that was just too cool for words judges 6 the angel of Yahweh came and sat under the terebinth at Oprah which belonged to joash the obvious right his son Gideon was then beating out wheat inside a wine press in order to keep it safe from the Midianites the angel of Yahweh the Moloch out and I appeared to him and said to him Yahweh is with you ok so they're distinguished here okay always with you valiant warrior Gideon again paraphrasing so you got to be kidding do you know what's going on here now why is all this bad you follow this next slide and so the it says and Yahweh turned to him ok there remember there's we're looking at to Yahweh turned to him which is a curious phrase isn't it it is Yahweh embodied I can't really Yahweh turned to him and said go and this might have yours and save Israel from the hand of Midian do not I send you do not I send you and he said to him please Lord how can I save Israel behold my client is the weakest in Manasseh I'm the least of my father's house and Yahweh said to him ok ok alright ok I get it there were two angel the Lord met him there and it said that Yahweh was there too so I guess Yahweh's talking and he's just kind of staring at the angel who's not his lips aren't moving it's like a ventriloquist thing is this what's going on again it's a little confusing because you got to it's going to get a little worse Yahweh said to him but I will be with you and you shall strike the Midianites as one man and then he Gideon said to him we don't know it just says him what it's ambiguous so it's getting and speaking to the angel or is he speaking to Yahweh well if I found favor yes the answer is yes done it doesn't matter that they're both going to hear if now I have found favor in your eyes then show me a sign that it's you who speaks with me please do not depart from here until I come to you and bring out my present he's okay stay here I'm gonna go make a present I'll come back just just don't go anywhere okay so he said whoever he was angel or Yahweh says okay I'll stick around next slide so Gideon brought them to him under the terebinth lamb it he brought the sacrifice to the terrible who was under the terebinth anybody remember how did the chapter begin who was under the terebinth tree the angel was under the terrible the angel of God said to him wait a minute if Yahweh was the guy talking why would did he bring this present to the eighth take the meat unleavened cakes put them on this rock and pour the broth over them and he did so the angel the Lord reached out to its staff fire springs up from the rock consumes the little offering and the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight then Gideon says Wow alas o Lord God for now I've seen the angel the Lord face to face you always still there he's still in the scene Yahweh said to him don't worry you're not going to die now if I revealed myself to you without the angel then you die okay they're both in the same scene but they're both mixed and separated okay my suggestion is all of that quote unquote confusing stuff is deliberate you're not supposed to be able to make a neat picture because they're both him he is him and he's not him but did their piece still him it's kind of like we talked about Jesus Jesus is but isn't God He is God because he's the same essence but he's not the father oh my god how can he oh don't ask me questions like it's the same sort of kind of dilemma you know like how do you how do you express that adequately got the same problem here summary next slide so far again we've got clear indications that there's this tunas going on the name is another way to refer to Yahweh himself the name is within the angel and the angel of course is in human form next slide mother second Yahweh clues next slide the word next slide Genesis 15 so we talked about the angel we've talked about Hashem now we're going to talk about the word ha devar after these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision I would suggest to you that when you have visions you see things otherwise it wouldn't be a vision okay it's not just that he's hearing he's seeing he's seeing the word okay the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision don't be afraid Abram I am your shield your reward will be very great next slide for Samuel 3 this is my second favorite passage Jill Dustin now the young man samuel was ministering to the Lord again a divine name under Eli a Lee and the word of the Lord was rare in those days see now we think that that means God wasn't talking much but what does the rest of the line say there was no frequent visioned the word of the Lord was rare in those days there was no frequent vision down to verse 7 now Samuel had not yet experienced the Lord the word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him and the Lord called Samuel again the third time you another story once they go to sleep hears his voice Samuel he gets up he thinks it's Eli and I know what do you want they go back and forth a little while and then Eli of course says well the next time it happens next slide next time it happens say speak Lord your servant hears this Eli has it figured out so here's what we read and the Lord again Yahweh came and stood I would suggest that that's the language of embodiment the Lord came and stood calling as at the other times it's the same guy same person Samuel Samuel same as let's speak for your servant hears and then they have this conversation if basically I just thought I'd come to you and tell you that Eli is doomed or you can go tell her okay all right thanks a lot you go down to the rest of the chapter verse 19 and Samuel grew and the Lord was with him and led none of his words fall to the ground and all Israel from Dan to Beersheba knew that Samuel was established as a prophet of the Lord why because the Lord appeared again at Shiloh the Lord revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by or as however you want to translate as the word of the Lord he kept coming back but he only spoke to Samuel that's how people knew that hey I guess Samuels a prophet because the word of the Lord keeps like showing up there yeah this is not okay you're thinking John 1:1 the beginning was the word the Word was God the Word was with John didn't just sit down one day and say I want to do something clever I want to talk about Jesus like in a different way all those other Gospels are kind of boring they're boring beginnings talk about genealogies who wants to do that got enough of that I'm going to do something really clever uh what should I make up okay he's getting it from his Old Testament it's not new it's not invented next slide Jeremiah 1 now the word of the Lord came to me saying Jeremiah again speaking before I formed you Jeremiah relating this anyway and here's the speaker God before I formed you in the womb I knew you then I said Jeremiah now the speaker Lord God cannot and I Elohim truly I do not know how to speak I don't know what to say for I'm only a boy but the Lord again he Yahweh said to me don't say I'm only a boy for you shall go to all to whom I send you then the Lord again the third time now we got the divine name put out his hand and did what it's here's a hand but it's not really real I just want you to think it's a hand no he reaches out his hand and touches him this is the God of Israel embodied who is referred to as the Lord and in the first verse the word this is the embodied word in the Old Testament just like it was with Samuel and with Abraham we get it with Jeremiah here and it's even more dramatic because he touches him so now I put my words in your mouth next slide let's do another one yeah we're just rattling through these the cloud writer he who rides the clouds now this one takes a little explanation this is not a biblical passage you're looking at as a it as a passage from the Bale cycle from Garrard and I start off with this for this reason all the stuff that we've been through again it's been my experience again all the stuff we've looked at that people still try to say this isn't God embodied we can't have to Yahweh's in the Old Testament it's just Yahweh and this secondary being this angel thing who's less than you away now not only don't I think that that works with what we've seen so far I think what we've seen so far is sufficient to blow that away but this one just destroys it because everybody in the ancient world knew that Bale was not a flunkey angel this is a God okay in everybody's mind Bale is a big deal he is deity he's not but one of these underlings he's deity okay keep that in mind one of Bale's titles was the charioteer of the clouds he who rides the clouds this idea that bales up there and have been driving around in his chariot looking around and you know being the boss or something like that okay so it's a title that's used of a deity that everybody knows who that is hate him or like him you know who that is next slide now what the biblical writers do on five occasions is they use that title you know either identical wording or really close wording for that title five times they use that title and they use it to describe their own God the God of Israel well my guys as a conclusion we can draw them that Yahweh and Bale were the same know you dunderhead the conclusion we would draw is that the biblical writer is capitalizing on the fact that everybody knows who Bale is and now I'm going to take this title a bale that everybody knows and I'm going to give it to ya' way and what I'm communicating theologically is that Yahweh is the real writer on the clouds not this Bale guy it's so I'm telegraphic I'm using language that even you will understand you little Bale worshipers you I'm using language that you'll understand so you get the point so there is none like God o Jeshurun who rides through the heavens next slide Psalm 68 o kingdoms of the earth sing to God sing praises to the Lord to Yahweh to him who rides in the heavens next slide so I'm 104 bless the Lord O my soul Lord my god you were very great clothed the splendor and majesty go down to verse three he lays the beams of his chambers on the waters he makes the clouds his chariot who makes the clouds his chariot why it's I don't know Isaiah 19 yours see you're still you must have the bail cycle memorize next slide Isaiah 19 an Oracle concerning Egypt behold the Lord is riding on a swift cloud it's not bail I don't know what bales riding I don't know what he's driving these days but it ain't this okay he's his car's in the shop and his chariots getting fixed or whatever it's unbounded now all of those and and this is this is a crucial text for the two powers issue within Judaism all those that I just showed you let's go the next slide we're very specifically tieing Yahweh tethering that phrase that description to Yahweh himself the only exception the Old Testament is this passage right here Daniel 7 verses 9 to 13 it begins as I looked daniel said Thrones were set in place that's divine council meeting Thrones is plural their Thrones were set in place the Ancient of Days took his seat we know who that is he's presiding over the event next slide his garment was like white snow the air the hair of his head was like lamb's wool his throne was tongues of flame its wheels were blazing fire you know just as grand scene in heaven the middle of the passage the court or the council and however you want to translate it sat and the books were opened and one like a human being came with the clouds of heaven hey the cloud rider decided to come he got the memo went wait a minute I thought the cloud Rider was Yahweh yes well isn't Yahweh in the scene already correct well then we've got another one here that would be the case okay one like a human being came upon her came with the clouds of heaven he reached the Ancient of Days and was presented to him okay what was presented Dominion glory and kingship hey this is a crucial passage for the because you might want to be you might be able to argue yourself I think really badly out of the angel and the name and the word and all this other stuff but everybody knows who the cloud rider is you're not faking your way through that one by the way this is the passage Jesus quotes when he's on trial in front of Caiaphas when Caiaphas wants to know who he really is nextslide Matthew 26 yeah I think I have it in here to a seagull again quote you know the Jewish guy who wrote the two powers book next slide there's a quote from Siegel here Daniel describes a heavenly enthronement scene involving two divine manifestations the son of man in the Ancient of Days it may easily be describing two separate divine figures yes Alan it is and your ancestors understood that and it really bothered them after Jesus showed up it was something that needed to be dealt with because we're going to lose points we're going to lose this argument from our own Bible if we don't do something so let's make it a heresy that sounds great that's great you know we kind of minimize the other heresy thing today because I don't know maybe we're just too independent or not community minded enough but that was really a powerful thing to be excluded from your community okay that was it was a serious thing next slide so again summary Old Testament theology Old Testament theology includes the idea that Yahweh can be present in two persons sometimes in the same scene Old Testament theology also teaches the second Yahweh figure is portrayed in human form and at times physically embodied this sounds awfully like something else what would that be that would be Christology next slide now I'll probably well we quit we have time question I often get a lot of this is new to me I'm just used to thinking of Jesus as the only begotten Son of God how does this relate to that description of Jesus next slide it's a good question the Old Testament has other sons of God who weren't human job obvious one Psalm 82 of course so since Jesus was identified with Yahweh he was different than the other sons of God so we need a way to distinguish him don't we we need a way to distinguish him the New Testament does that in several ways one of them is the use of the term Monogue anis which we sort of awkwardly translate only-begotten until the 19th late 19th early 20th century it was assumed that Monogue anis came from two greek words manos meaning one or only and gnoffo which means to beget hence the phrase only begot putting them together later discoveries though confirmed that that was not really those were not the constituent parts of the term it really came from Manas only and the Greek noun gen a which means kind or type one of a kind unique Monogue anis does not mean only begotten it means unique it has nothing to do with begetting or beginning we've ever talked to a Jehovah's Witness they need to see that okay they're just thinking begotten that means you had a bit it's not even what the word means and you know what you need for proof of that you go to Hebrews 11:17 because Isaac is referred to in that passage as the mono kinase of Abraham it's time its jeopardy time a indeed was Isaac the only begotten son of Abraham think no no he isn't well then what would mono kinase mean if it's used of Isaac it means that Isaac is unique in some way and you know how he's unique he is the son of the promise he is Sarah's boy that's why he's mono kinase because Abraham out of their kids there's Ishmael and Ishmael was even born first okay next slide we'll skip through here if you actually do a search of mono Ganesh you'll see that it unique really does work a whole lot better I will skip that let's go to the summary slide so a summary only-begotten language speaks to uniqueness not point of origin since Yahweh was unique and Jesus was identified with unique the term was kind of important so when New Testament writers referred to Jesus as mono Ganesh they're thinking okay okay okay Jesus is God in the flesh so there's other sons of God in the Old Testament and the Jews probably won't forget that so what's the best way we can describe what we're thinking here son of God but different than oh how about just saying he's unique and then we can take that and mesh it with other arguments about Jesus like the word and in John 17 when he prays and he says that he's received the name from the father and in Jude 5 when it's Jesus who leads the people out of Egypt Jesus Jesus led the of each according to the book of Jude my father was the angel I thought it was the presence I thought it was Yahweh yeah get was okay again these things are not accidental they are telegraphing ideas through what they're writing next slide what about the Spirit will close with this New Testament theology a two-person Godhead seems pretty clear and the Old Testament I would say but again I sort of live with this this is one of those things that kind of dominates my thinking what about a Trinity what about three what about the Spirit nextslide well two observations here once you know the strategies the Old Testament writers used to convey a to Yahweh's idea which of course was where we get the two powers idea of Judaism once you know sort of how they do that you can detect certain passages where these same phrases and wordings are used of the spirit it's kind of interesting New Testament writers then repurpose all this stuff they repurpose this one but yet to thinking in the Old Testament to link the Spirit to both Jesus and God the Father give you some examples next slide we have here Isaiah 63 verse 7 and I've colorized the terms for specific reason so they stand out here this is Isaiah 63 verse 7 and then Psalm 78 to the right is a parallel I'll get I'm going to start with Isaiah although I'll mention why I have the psalm there so Isaiah 63 I will recount the steadfast love of the Lord again this Yahweh the praises of the Lord the corn all the Lord has granted us the great goodness of the house of Israel so on and so forth talks about again his deliverance you get to verse 9 in all their affliction and he was afflicted and the angel of his presence notice how it conflates the to the angel and the presence the angel of his presence saved them in his love and his pity he redeemed them in he gets them through the desert through all the complaining all these episodes we all know about but they rebelled verse 10 and grieved his Holy Spirit real how'd he get in there they rebelled and grieved his holy spirit therefore he turned to be their enemy and he himself fought against them he remember the days of old of Moses and his people where is he who brought them up out of the scene with the Shepherd's of his flock where is he who put in in the midst of them his holy spirit well I believe my thought God put the angel in them it's oh the psalmist is so confused no actually he's not if you look at Psalm 78 or I should say Isaiah is confused if you look at Psalm 78 this is a this is a parallel passage if you read the whole song I picked two verses out because the verb love is here rebelled and grieved are the same Hebrew words as in Psalm 78 but look at what happens in Psalm 78 how often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert they tested God again and again and provoked the Holy One of Israel you compare these two it aligns the spirit with God and in Isaiah 63 you have the angel conflated with the spirit that's three thinking that's pardoned upon triangulation okay that's what that is again New Testament writers and readers are not half-wits okay they know the text extraordinarily well they're not sitting there thinking well goodness the Jews have a 2-person God and we don't want that we need something different well let's throw somebody else in there then we can say we have one more than you do now they're getting it they're getting the thought trajectories from their Old Testament they're not making it up next slide Ezekiel eight again slide doesn't work real well Hilbert we'll get through it Ezekiel eight then I looked and behold a form that had the appearance of a man below what appeared to be his waist was fire and above his waist was something like the appearance of brightness like gleaming metal where have we seen that before in Ezekiel chapter one specifically the guy sitting on the throne that would be God okay but here it's someone that looks like a man he put out the form of a hand oh he must have been reading Jeremiah he put out the form of a hand and took me by a lock of my head and who lifted me up the spirit so we have an embodied deity from chapter 1 just he's and he's also human in form in Chapter 1 here we get him described as a man in Chapter 8 and it's the spirit oh they're so confused they just needed a good professor back then verse 5 then he said to me son of man lift up your eyes now toward the north so I lifted up my eyes toward the north me hold the North of the altar get him he's looking again this is he's seeing the temple you go down to the bottom it's obscured here but I'll read there I'll read the rest of it for you son of man do you see what they're doing the great abominations that the house of Israel are committing here to drive me from my sanctuary okay you've got God you've got a body mint you've got the spirit which one is it all of the above I'll check be all of the above next slide now again if you're thinking in these modes let's talk about the New Testament before we quit here on the left-hand side what you have going on in the New Testament is they know what's going on here in the old this column is Old Testament you've got Yahweh the invisible Yahweh you've got a second visible Yahweh figure and you've got it connected to the spirit in the New Testament we have God the Father and we have Jesus and the spirit New Testament writers to Telegraph the fact that we've got a correspondence going here in these passages acts 16 Philippians 1:19 Romans 8 first Peter 1:11 look at the phrases they're used the spirit of Jesus so if Christians are thinking well I can really see that two person Godhead here I mean our buddies the Jews are talking about two powers in heaven we know what that is and they're using the two headed Godhead here and then they're linking the spirit to Jesus who is God spirit of god spirit of Jesus same same same thing spirit of god spirit of Christ God sent the spirit of his son into our hearts see God didn't spend send the Spirit of God into our hearts he sent the spirit of Jesus again it doesn't matter to the New Testament writer which noun they choose they're all interchangeable when they write stuff like this they know that it is consistent with their Old Testament you know think about it when they have a problem if they're accepting the Old Testament as canonical as sacred and it contradicts half of what they're writing in the Oh in the New Testament wouldn't it be a problem I'm going to make them look kind of schizophrenic or just kind of dumb they know we're cut they're getting it from somewhere next slide so I think we'll end here again when you understand the two yet one how that's revealed in the Old Testament you can detect when the Spirit is brought into the conversation in the same way and again you get you move from a Tunis you know the angel is but isn't Yahweh he is Yahweh he's the presence he's all this but but they're still Yahweh out there they're still separate again you know what's going on there and then the spirit gets brought into it this is exactly what they're doing in the New Testament with Jesus okay referring back again to the second power so the Old Testament to get one to Yahweh's the New Testament times equates the spirit with the second Yahweh the result is you get three now I want to make one other comment just to tie up a loose end I mention them real briefly but I want to mention them again just so that you get the idea the New Testament writers are trying to deliberately link Jesus to the God of the Old Testament and to the angel because they're both Yahweh so on one hand Paul you're not the only one to do it Paul will quote the Old Testament he'll have some passage that says you know Yahweh said this or that the other thing and then he'll quote it in his what he's writing and then he'll take the yahweh part and he'll write either correos the Lord or Christos or yacyas Jesus they actually do that they'll quote the Old Testament then they'll swap in a name or a title associated with Jesus that is to Telegraph theology to the writer that are the same they do that with the angel too I mentioned John 17 I mentioned the book of Jude of course we know about John 1:1 with the word and I'll close with the scene at again with Caiaphas in Matthew 26 Jesus is on trial and Caiaphas is sort of had enough of it and he says quit beating around the bush tell us who you are and then Jesus quotes Daniel 7 and we read that and think oh Jesus is trying to be clever he's trying to sort of put one over on Caiaphas it he's going to give Caiaphas a riddle that'll be clever that'll irritate him he says you want to know who I am hereafter you will see the Son of man coming upon the clouds with great glory does that answer your question now Caiaphas knows instantly what he just heard he just heard this man standing in front of him claimed to be the cloud Rider the second Yahweh figure in Daniel 7 you know why we know that Caiaphas got that message what does he do he rips his garments and says this is blasphemy we have no further need of witnesses out the door he knows instantly what Jesus is saying then of course Jesus does - you wonder who I am figure this out okay put your thinking cap on Caiaphas because I'm going to tell you and it's literally the end of the conversation that's the end of him so again this is you have to again be thinking in these modes to catch some of the Kisan of it just looks you know like throwaway stuff right over our heads but it's not there's just a lot in there so slow down take a careful look and you'll pick some of it up go ahead if it its what about like when Jesus breathes on his disciples and tells them to wait for the gift of the Spirit I'll answer that this way Jesus is but isn't God the Father we understand that he is God because they're the same essence but he's not the father the Spirit is but isn't Jesus Jesus in fact promises to be with them unto the end of the age wherever they are where two or three are gathered in my events there I am with why because I'm the spirit - he is me and I am him so he's just telling them I'm going but I'm not really going okay the Spirit is Jesus but he is in Jesus now we get the spirit which is really interesting when you start to think about okay spirit is Jesus Jesus is God Jesus is the second power the presence of God the same presence that lived in the top what a wait a minute the same presence that lived in attack mode maybe that's why Paul refers to us as Tabernacles of skin and maybe that's why Paul uses verbs like the spirit Tabernacles in us just maybe that might be why that language is used you know we're not waiting he doesn't telling his disciples to wait for a thing that is less than him he's winning he's telling them to wait until the spirit comes who is him but not you know again it's this I am but I'm not it's hard for us to talk like this because we don't have such attributes I mean we can come up with analogies that sort of work you know I kind of have a lustrated value but but we can never be entirely someone else bus while still being ourselves but that's what's going on same but different in really complete sort of ways all we can do is sort of mimic it we should do this really fast so he has to run the question conservative Genesis one two and then Genesis one I think it's 26 the plural language there I actually do not think the Genesis 1:26 is a Trinitarian passage after all you've heard you may thought you know that's kind of weird like I do think though that in Genesis 1 you do have let me put it this way when it comes to Old Testament creation theology there are 3 who play a role you don't really get two or more than two in Genesis 1 but proverbs 8 introduces a third character with wisdom whose motifs and descriptions are applied to Jesus elsewhere now just to head this awful well wait a minute proverbs 8 it's a woman wisdom as lady wisdom and you're saying Jesus is a woman now and hermaphrodite or you know what's going on here wisdom is feminine in Hebrew because it's grammatically feminine hokhmah is grammatically feminine just the way languages work okay that's all it is you know there are other issues but we don't need a rabbit chocolate with that now going back to Genesis you have the spirit you've got God you have this co-creator from proverbs chapter 8 everybody gets a part so it's consistent with New Testament presentations of Jesus being the divine agent of creation there's no contradiction there back to Genesis 1:26 I take the the plural the plural language there it's a plural of exhortation God is announcing to a group because it's plural hey let us create let's create humankind okay when the verbs of creation when the creation actually happens they are all grammatically singular they're never plural so I look at that and say God the Father is announcing to some group which I take to be the divine council just the guys in the room to hear the plan and they say you know you're the boss you know so but when it actually comes to the creation event only God is acting it's consistently singular in verbs it's consistently singular in pronouns in the image of God he created them in his own image their singular pronouns - it's very clear it's not like ancient near-eastern cosmologies when you have God's doing a whole bunch of things you know and you get multiple deities involved in all this kind of stuff the Hebrew Bible is is painstakingly clear to not cross into that territory and that in and of itself is a theological statement I expect that microphone to be back really quickly Jesus so you have any insight on capital I think it could be used to blur the distinction between Jesus and the spirit I think it's a it's sort of a a formulaic way of saying I was under the control of the spirit but even if that's the case the fact that Jesus is mixed into there into the language I think yeah there could be an intentional blurring there that that you're what's happening to John is actually happening to him at the behest of and under the influence of two who else were in the New Testament are the same but yet different so I think it's consistent with that blurring that happens elsewhere I was wondering if you would agree in acts 5 talking about Ananias and Sapphira and it says that Peter told them abide to the Holy Spirit and then he also says you are not lying to them that's but to God you're like you're like this Larry yeah I don't I don't have any problem with that argument because I don't think that I think you could still argue the personhood of the spirit with personal pronouns which is kind of traditionally you know the way it's done but I think in the context of this other language about Jesus being the spirit but yet not being the spirit the Spirit is Jesus but yet he's different there is no ambiguity about Jesus being a person and so once you link the two that becomes the foundational issue that after you recognize that then you can look at these pronouns and go well that makes a lot of sense how else would you do it you know that kind of thing studies is there you tell my words use the phrases the means for example one who was under the inspiration of God but it chose by Jeremiah in his race versus just a good literary writing by Christian all right Oh about within the Scriptures or something something alongside just good literary artistry I I would be somewhat inclined to say it's a stalemate if there was just a handful of these but it's it is literally everywhere and you're talking about authors that lived over a millennium apart and they all do have their own agendas but somehow even despite their own - a agenda I'm not saying it in a sinister way I mean they've got stuff they need to take care of that there's a reason why they're writing despite all that there is just hundreds maybe I mean you if you got really picky about it you might be even in four digits just threads that keep getting connected over and over and over again now I think it would be an overwhelming effort just as a human Enterprise to do that and frankly I don't know anything like it I mean that even if there's nothing else even in the discussion in terms of thread continuity theological continuity and but on another level it's sort of a moot question because I don't divorce literary artistry from inspiration God isn't taking a talented writer and saying we're going to have some inspiration time today I want you to turn off your brain if you can't do that I'll turn it off for you and I'm going to start dictating God prepares people for the task that they were doing he not only prepares the original authors those who come up with the first you know bulk of the composition but there is there is clear evidence in a number of cases and you can probably find a good example this in most every Old Testament book New Testament probably the Gospels at least of editorial hand that is fashioning material that has been left to someone putting it together even those guys like I'll give an example first three verses in Ezekiel if you have your Bible you could look at them the person's change it begins in the third person you know or begins in the first person I you know I was here by the river key bar it was in the year of whatever whatever and then it said and then he refers to Ezekiel the Prophet it's a switch between the first and the third person it shows that someone had content that Ezekiel probably preached you have you have schools of the prophets you have people following these people around preachers they're recording things or after they die they put them into writing and then somebody has to make a book out of it I like to say it this way I do not believe in the holy stapler that is not part of my theology and we say well Mike what do you mean by the holy stapler what I mean is we have this idea of inspiration that sort of removes these human elements you're talking about and it makes inspiration again these series of paranormal events where you know let's say we're followers of Ezekiel and we're following him around and some of us are taking notes and you know we go out and we listen you know Ezekiel's out again what weird things are going to do today you know is he going to get naked is he going to you know what he does all these weird things we go follow him around we write stuff down and all of a sudden he just drops over dead and we're like now what do we do okay I'm suggesting that the spirit prompts somebody in that group to say but we better write this stuff down okay whoever had notes we're going to meet tomorrow at two o'clock and you bring everything you've got and so that yeah we meet at Starbucks and so they get all they gather all together and it's like okay give me your pile and okay you got one you got two sheets okay you know put them all together make sure the edges are nice and even where is the stapler kachunk there's the book of ezekiel it is not how books are made somebody's going to be tasked with we're going to take the master sermons now and we're going to make them readable we're going to put them in an order that people will understand maybe it's chronological maybe it'll be topical we're going to do a good job with it who knows how to write anybody a scribe here oh you in the back of the room you're elected okay you know what you're doing here's the material produce something for our people for posterity we want people to know what is e kiyul said we want people to know what God spoke through him you know the passage in Jeremiah where Jeremiah writes something and then the King tears it up and God says go make another copy God actually says in that passage he says that the words that Jeremiah is writing are my words do a good job because my name is going on this or I'm getting linked to this it's the Word of God people don't expect a hack term paper okay they expect something that's really well done and God knows that God knows it's going to get passed down so I don't I don't really divorce these things but even if I did it would be a really difficult argument to say that they just all were so smart and so brilliant that they could connect thousands of things even though they didn't know each other and lived at a different time and it went through more than one hand you know it would just be a phenomenally difficult argument you

Channel: Brent Emery

Views: 86,160

Rating: 4.8032284 out of 5

Keywords: Michael Heiser, two powers, 2 powers, beit tefillah, beit-tefillah gig harbor, brent emery, divine plurality, hebrew, torah, messianic

Id: CUkhWBKCuXc

Length: 81min 52sec (4912 seconds)

Published: Fri May 24 2013

Reddit Comments

[u/nightshadetwine]

From Michael Heiser's website http://twopowersinheaven.com/

For the orthodox Israelite, Yahweh was both sovereign and vice regent—occupying both “slots” as it were at the head of the divine council. The binitarian portrayal of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible was motivated by this belief. The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form.

This is found in Egyptian religion. I wonder if this concept originally comes from the Egyptians. The god Amun-Re had two aspects, one being invisible and the other visible. Does Heiser ever mention Amun-Re?

Vincent A. Tobin, "Amun and Amun-Re", in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt: Volume 1(Oxford University Press, 2001)

During the New Kingdom, the theology of Amun-Re at Thebes became very complex. His position as king of the gods increased to a point that approached monotheism. In Amun-Re's most advanced theological expressions, the other gods became symbols of his power or manifestations of him- he himself being the one and only supreme divine power. This absolute supremacy of Amun-Re was eloquently expressed in the sun hymns found in the eighteenth dynasty tombs at Thebes. As Amun, he was secret, hidden, and mysterious; but as Re, he was visible and revealed. Although for centuries Egyptian religion had been flexible and open to contradictory mythological expressions, the Theban theology of Amun-Re came close to establishing a standard of orthodoxy in doctrine.

Religion in the Ancient Mediterranean World(The Teaching Company, 2005), Glenn S. Holland

...he was already given the name Amen-Re -- a composite name that represented the two aspects of the god. The name Amen, meaning "hiddenness," indicated the unknowable essence of the god, whose power and authority were far beyond human understanding. The name Re indicated the revealed aspect of the god, who shone over the two kingdoms in the shining radiance of the sun...

[u/Torlek1]

"Messianic Jewish" stuff? Really?

Orthodox Jew Daniel Boyarin and Conservative Jew Benjamin Sommer made more palatable references from the Rabbinic, Judaic side. Heck, there's this article by Yishai Kiel!

[u/AhavaEkklesia]

The Binitarian Pattern of Earliest Christian Devotion and Early Doctrinal Development - Yale liturgical conference paper.doc

https://www.cogwriter.com/binitarian.htm - he provides many quotes from early church Fathers that support the view of two YHWH's, with the holy spirit being the power of YHWH.

The Targums and the Memra/Word of the Lord - he shows how the Targums also reveal two YHWH's