Rediscovering The Spiritual Realm With Dr. Michael Heiser

folks welcome back to another exciting edition of  kinda christian i am beyond ecstatic to welcome dr   michael heiser to the show he is one of the  smartest and honestly most formative people   i have read on the subject of old testament  spirituality i am so excited about this interview   and i've waited a long time for this now just to  give you some credentials and he did tease earlier   about appealing to authority but i gotta give  this guy credibility when it comes to authority   uh dr heiser has a masters in ancient history from  the university of pennsylvania and a masters in   a phd in hebrew bible and semitic languages  from the university of wisconsin in madison   and a minor in classical studies if that wasn't  enough and he also received a bachelor's degree   from bob jones university and attended bible  college for three years bottom line more initials   after his name than i can count so with that being  said let's welcome dr michael heiser to the kind   of christian program dr eiser thank you for being  with us today yeah absolutely thanks for having me   i see i expected nothing less there are an  infinite number of books behind you um and   i'm just i'm actually wondering does one of  those pull back and reveal a secret layer of   where you do all your research this is just better  than my bathroom you know that's what we get if   we were doing this from my house because i don't  have an office at home oh but i said where i set   the bath the bathroom doors directly behind me  so oh that's good well we i'm sure the viewers   at home really do appreciate a not so candid  look into old testament scholarship but let's   dive right in it's a big book old testament's long  and complicated so i i would love to jump right in   how do you if you can if there is a way how  does dr heiser sum up what is the old testament   old testament is the story of god's interest in  humanity specifically once you get past genesis   11 the story of the hebrews and the hebrews of  course are the you know ultimately the descendants   of abraham we call them the israelites because  you know jacob you know abraham isaac jacob jacob   is going to have his name changed to israel so  i mean in a nutshell that is the old testament   if you begin in genesis 1 what does god want god  wants a family you know we know from job that god   already had beings with him before creation  before the old testament's description of   the creation of the world and humans the sons of  god these spiritual beings are with god already   and so basically god wants the same thing in  embodied form he wants a human family he has to   create a place for them to live that's why we get  creation they cannot come to him he has to go to   them that's why we get eden with all the cosmic  mountain divine abode language from the ancient   near east used to describe eden the garden of  eden and you know god comes to man he wants human   children and human partners to enjoy the things  he makes and to participate with him in just   doing things he wants to do and the old testament  records that goes very wrong very quickly   and god wasn't surprised because he has shared  his attributes with both humans and supernatural   beings so he knows they can fail he knows they  can choose to rebel because while they are like   him they are not him they lack his perfect  nature but god would rather have a world   in which evil surfaces and there is suffering  than to not have either family at all okay and   so the old testament basically picks up on what  god wants god wants us you know he wants a family   and tells that story and it gets funneled you know  through this one family this one you know people   that he has to intervene amid all the  chaos to basically start over again   and he does that with abraham and sarah and  creates israel you know the hebrews out of that   and so the story picks up from chapter 12 on  with their story which morphs into the story   of including people outside israel and that of  course is going to dovetail and bleed into the   new testament where we get god's resolution of  the human failures the covenants he's made with   with people to sort of you know keep kick-starting  the plan god never gives up on the original plan   despite all the evil and chaos he is committed  to his decision to create these beings you know   humans and otherwise he loves them he won't give  up on it and he's not going to change the rules of   the game either midstream he's not going to take  away their free will he's neither going to destroy   them or alter them so that they are no longer  like him he's big enough to steer things in the   direction he wants it to go and he's committed to  the original plan because ultimately he wants us   with him that's the old testament well  that's that's awesome i haven't heard it   described that way all right couple questions  that emerge immediately for me from that so   before we even get into the character of god and  this old mention of evil and the plan going astray   you know one of it seems one of the narratives  or maybe even criticism's old testament is   is it a fair saying that the old testament  is similar to or emulative of other   similar religious narratives or texts at the  time is that i i feel like i've heard that   that's one of the critiques the old testament is  that it's similar to all these other old similar   religions in the area well there are there are  some conceptual overlaps there are and there are   some really acute differences uh for instance  you know you you have overlaps with things like   cosmological beliefs and perceptions you know  the creation language you know that sort of thing   but you have a concept like the gods you know  choosing humans because they love them and making   covenants with them that is utterly foreign  to anything else other than the hebrew bible   you go to mesopotamia the the gods make humans  to be slaves now they're going to do the jobs we   don't like to do you know you never get that sense  in the old testament in in ancient near eastern   thought you know broader than mesopotamia just  generally the idea of humans being divine imagers   is something said only of kings okay the old  testament democratizes this it's every human   is a divine imager i mean so so there you have a  let's just use that one you have a concept that   humans are somehow like god or the gods but what  gets packed into that in the old testament the   hebrew bible is quite different than what you're  going to read elsewhere so the old testament's   kind of a combination of these things it  you're going to have commonalities because   you know ultimately the material is going  to be written by people who share reason   regional space i mean they're basically  you know geographically close in proximity   so we would expect you know cross fertilization  of the way things get talked about   and the things that get talked about are just  common to human experience why are we here you   know how did we get here you know there's a sense  you know immediately of of a greater intelligence   beyond us that by the way you know moderns still  love to retreat to as well when they can't explain   things and so the you know these are things  that that everybody talks about and there's   this you know what we would call a spiritual  world that that enters into the discussion   and the vocabulary that's used for where the gods  live and what they do and what they're interested   in i mean there's a lot of commonality there  but when you really drill down into the theology   sort of the storyline that's presented in the  hebrew bible there are some really significant   differences so it's it's a little bit of you know  sameness and and you know significant difference   as well and some of the sameness is is polemic  as well because the the biblical writers will   are trying to respond to other ideas you know  and ancient near eastern literature does that too   but the old testament the hebrew bible writers   you know honestly make more of a point of it  yeah it seems to be on their mind a lot more   to say something drawing on language that  their audience will know because they know   babylonian you know religion or they know egyptian  religion or they know canaanite you know religion   and so they'll use that language to poke the other  ideas you know in the eye so to speak and there's   there's probably more of that in the hebrew bible  than you're going to find you know elsewhere   uh even though there's it's not totally absent  elsewhere but that's another reason for the   sameness so rather than then kind of you know  the village atheist thing of oh you know the   you know the stuff in the old testament it  just comes from you know fill in the blank   you know like like the israelites never had an  independent thought okay which is which is an   absurd notion but rather than keeping it at that  simplistic level people should ask the questions   of well why do we see the similarities and why do  we see the differences but typically again when   you're when you're doing internet stuff and  you're you know you're watching xyz youtube   channel where you have someone who probably  knows more than the average christian in church   but in terms of academic exposure doesn't know a  whole lot or really isn't thinking too deeply the   discussion just is a little too simplistic and  you know you tend to sort of overstate the case   and not really not really explore it um the  way it needs to be probed so that makes sense   so it seems like to just say oh this is  just a copy or a mimicry of uh the yeah   the legend of gilgamesh look at the simplistic  but understandable thinking these two things   are similar therefore this one came from that one  really right and they're not even that similar but   logical textbook is that going to defend you  know is going to defend that idea you know   two things can be similar and one not be the  cause of the other but again in in these typical   discussions that you get online nobody even  asks that question or or you know pushes back   on that assumption and it really needs you know  to be pushed back there could be many reasons why   two things are similar um you know rather than  some kind of you know this is the cause of that   correlation does not mean causation absolutely  this is this is just thinking clearly but   you know a lot of that doesn't i mean i'm not  i'm not a guy that spends a whole lot of time   you know online in social media and stuff like  that but i've spent enough to know that that's   that's sort of the normal way of doing things  well it seems like you're saying it ignores too   the fact that yeah you can say on the service  sure they might have a similar flood narrative   they might have you know similar gods that  have different roles but at the end of the day   if i'm hearing you is that the old testament  and just the the doctrines theology relationship   with god to man put forth in the old  testament is radically unprecedented um   there there are there are quite unprecedented  ideas you know in you know in the old testament   amid the similarities you know and then again  if you were if you were sort of making buckets   you know you'd have well some similarities  are there because it's the ancient near east   okay there's a regional proximity they have the  same kind of lifestyle so they're going to have   the same kind of problems or they just have  general problems that like every like you know   male and female married you know  husband and wife pro you know that   you're going to just have similarities for  that reason then there's a similarity because   they're using the similarity to go some  other direction you know religiously or   theologically i mean you could have five  six seven eight buckets you know for why   you know you have similarities but again  in our day and age the the people who sort   of have an axe to grind against the bible  will take the bucket that most efficiently   lets them attack this thing that they just don't  like you know so it you know that's just kind of   the way it works but in the in the academic  world you really you don't get away with that you just don't so you're you are noteworthy too  and i remember you because you open up in your   book the unseen realm with uh with this psalm  and it begins this discussion of there's these   verses in the bible that people either don't  know about or just kind of uncomfortably brush   under the rug and they point towards this bizarre  paradigm or seemingly bizarre paradigm that   there is god but there are lots of other  gods there is a spiritual hierarchy   and world that is really not taught or considered  in a lot of modern at least what i've been exposed   to modern christian theology so can you tell us  a little bit about that that psalm and and some   of those verses that kind of blew open the door  to that world that's not really talked about yeah   you know this is a sweeping under the rug there's  there's a noticeable bulge under the rug by now   um there's a lot of things that sort of get swept  under the rug and this is a classic example of   of faith communities you know christians or  conservative judaism whatever of imposing   their parsing of biblical language onto the bible  rather than just you know approaching it from the   way an ancient person would think about it so  that the psalm you're talking about is psalm 82   and as i relate in the first chapter of unseen  realm this was this was sort of a watershed moment   for me because you know i'm in a doctoral program  by this time i have a couple of master's degrees   i've taught for five years i've taught 15  different classes you know i'm i'm almost 10   years you know into this you know higher education  business i'm not a newbie all right and i'm   thinking you know i got a pretty decent handle on  on this stuff and all it took was one conversation   killing a few minutes before church with somebody  else in the hebrew department to just destroy that and i don't i don't remember what we even talked  about but i remember the way the conversation   ended the guy had his hebrew bible with him and  he just handed it to me and said you need to   read psalm 82 in hebrew and so i i did you know  it's it's not difficult the the first line is   elohim you know again that's a very familiar  term for god elohim and and pardon the grammar   spasm but we know that's a singular elohim  capital g.o.d because nitsav is singular   it's a singular participle so god stands  in the divine assembly the divine council   and then the next line is the kicker the care  of elohim yes pot in the midst of the elohim   he the first one passes judgment okay or  is judging them and it's not the trinity   because if you read verses two  through five the other elohim   are really getting pounded by god he's angry  because because they're corrupt and wicked   and i looked at that and i thought well that  looks like a pantheon yeah like how you know   i'm thinking how in the world could i get to this  point and never see that i've never run into it   you know but you know fortunately providentially  i had a second thought you know a little later   on that that went something like i bet jesus  knew that verse i bet paul knew it i'll bet new   testament writers knew it certainly other  old testament writers knew it and somehow   it doesn't get in the way of the theology  they articulate in so many other places   that we're used to that that's more familiar  to us so how do these things go together   and you know to make a long story short i couldn't  let it go you know i like like i remember thinking   are you really like in the middle of your  doctoral work gonna start thinking about   the nature of god like like something that  basic like you don't have to start this   not time for this but i couldn't let it go so it  became a focal point of my dissertation uh the   divine council and and again the short version of  this is what what happens is we are trained by our   culture and which includes our churches when we  see the letters g o and d on a screen or on a page   we mentally our brains default to oh  the letters g o and d mean or point to   a specific set of unique attributes okay  eternality omniscient some omnipresence   omnipotence all this stuff and so you  can't put an s on that that's that's creepy   can't do that well the biblical writers do not  think of elohim that way and how do we know that   all you gotta do is okay do something boring  like look up all 2200 occurrences of this thing   because it's it's in there a lot and you'll find  that the biblical writers use elohim of you know   half a dozen or so different things other than  the god of israel now that alone that one fact   alone tells you that they are not thinking  about elohim as a unique set of attributes   and if you actually spend any time in the  hebrew bible you will realize and learn   that the biblical writers tend to talk about  one particular elohim in different ways that   includes those attributes i mean the attributes  aren't don't arise out of the meaning of elohim   they arise from what's said about one elohim and  those same things are denied to all other elohim   so what we have here is we yeah we have yahweh  we have the god of the bible presiding over   a bunch of other elohim gods but yahweh is an  elohim but none of the other elohim are him he   is species unique okay there is only one of those  the bottom line is elohim is a term you would use   to describe any entity or being who is by nature  disembodied and a member of the spiritual world   i mean the deceased human dead are  called elohim in the hebrew bible   no israelite is going to be thinking oh my my  departed grandma is on the same ontological level   as the god of israel the god of the universe you  haven't met my grandma right it's ridiculous and   you say well they're both called elohim yeah they  are okay elohim is just it's a word like spirits   it's a word you would call a member of the  spiritual realm that's all it is it has nothing   to do with a unique set of attributes but but see  this is the way we're taught to think about this   and so when i ran into this i started looking  up commentaries you know and you start with   the ones that you know in my i come from the the  broader evangelical traditions so i'm looking up   evangelical commentators and they're saying dumb  stuff like oh the the gods here are just people   they're israelite judges you know they're this  or that person you know and it's like oh that   that's wonderful because when i go over to psalm  89 and i see the same council language in psalm 89   there the council is in the skies it's in the  heavens so what we got now a bunch of jewish   guys floating around in the sky ruling  the nations it it it's just ridiculous   but because this passage gets filtered through  the modern way we talk about monotheism people don't know what to do with this  and again my suggestion in the book is   dump all that don't try to to come up with  a label a single term for how an israelite   would have thought about god among all the  other spiritual beings all the other elohim   describe it don't try to stick a label on because  none of the labels work monotheism doesn't work   monolatry is better but it doesn't quite work  pennotheism again that has weaknesses as well   polytheism doesn't work none of the terms work  they're all modern monotheism is a 17th century   term okay okay we're not dealing with 17th  century writers what could be more obvious   so let them tell you let them describe for you  what they really think instead of trying to   slap a label on it but again when you do that  well that's not in the westminster confession   well no kidding you know i mean that wasn't  written you know in a hundred thousand bc you know   this is this is where we're so locked  into we've we end up filtering the bible   through our own familiar you know contexts  and again i'm i'm not down on creeds i'm   not down on denominations i i don't feel the  impulse to pick on any of them or endorse any   of them they they serve good purposes  i understand i've benefited from them   you know in the course of my life but but i really  don't want to hear anybody talk about interpreting   the bible in context anymore unless you're willing  to do it and and the context for interpreting the   bible the right context for interpreting the bible  is the context that produced the thing okay it's   the context of the writers who are communicating  intentionally to readers living at the same time   so let's let's do that and let's put you know  some careful thought into what they're saying   and yeah we can try to articulate that in  in different terms for a modern audience and   put it into a doctrinal statement or whatever  but we got to realize these things are different   one is the context for the bible the other  is an expression of what we're discovering   over here or at least it ought to be but we we  have somehow either confused that or it gets a   little scary at this point because mike's books  don't sound like the westminster confession or   this or that you know okay they okay they don't i  mean theologically i'm i'm with you i mean i'm a   normal boring run-of-the-mill trinitarian you know  kind of guy but the reasons i am might be quite   different uh and if and if i know your argument  stinks i'll tell you you know and that then that   might trouble you but i'm trying you don't deserve  to be lied to well i do want to build i do want to   build off this a little bit we have so when we  talk about this elohim and this lowercase elohim   bottom line is there is one sub according to this  narrative there is one supreme god with different   attributes in the rest and then there's just  this myriad of other spiritual beings that have   other that have ashes but clearly are not the  same as god and there's some sort of and i think   i'd love to there's another example of this you  mentioned in your book with the story of micaiah   and i think it illustrates what you're talking  about because we kind of see hints of this so   can you recall for us that story yeah divine  counsel divine assembly is biblical language   you know psalm 82 is a good example psalm 89 but  but really it's it's the heavenly host that's the   term more people are familiar with okay think  of congress you know congress is a big group   it has different levels some of the members of  congress are decision makers some are not they're   just interns or something you know but but when  congress is in session everybody's on the job okay   so you've got heavenly host and within the  heavenly host you have different entities   and the hebrew bible actually spells out a  number of these different entities you have   basically three buckets for vocabulary you  have words that describe what a thing is   what remember the heavenly host is where it ranks  and what its job is you got three buckets so   you know you you know when you when you get into  this heavenly host thing some of them again god   allows to participate in making decisions and your  passage first kings 22 19-23 is a good example   of this it's the story of you know that ahab of  israel and jehoshaphat the king of the southern   you know kingdom there's no ahab's the northern  king you know jehoshaphat is the southern king   ahab's trying to convince jehoshaphat to partner  with him in a military engagement you know to go   out to remote gilead and have you know make a  battle against their common enemy or whatever   and so jehoshaphat goes to visit you  know ahab and they have this discussion   and ahab's prophets are like you're awesome ahab  go up and go up and kill those guys you know   and ahab suspects that he has a  bunch of yes men because he does   and so jehoshaphat is thinking the same thing and  he says hey isn't there like a prophet of yahweh   around here and and ahab literally says oh yeah  i got one of those but i hate that guy because   he never tells me what i want to hear that's  that's makai of the story so they bring him out   at first he sort of pokes fun at ahab's prophets  you know mimicking them and then he gets serious   and in verse 19 again just paraphrasing he says  you want to know what i see here's what i see   you know i i saw the lord you know well i should  just read it you know so i don't miss any part   that that you might have in mind here so first  kings 22 19 therefore hear the word of the lord   i saw the lord sitting on his throne and all the  host of heaven there's your you know heavenly host   standing beside him on his right and on his  left and the lord said who will entice ahab   that he may go up and fall at remote gilead see  god has already decreed that you know earlier   in the chapter in the context that it's time for  ahab to die so god says okay how are we going to   do this and one said one thing and another said  another so there a debate breaks out you know   among the heavenly hosts there and then  verse 21 then a spirit came forward and   stood before the lord saying i'll entice him and  the lord said yeah how are you going to do that   and he said i will go out and i'll be a lying  spirit in the mouth of all his prophets and he god   said you are to entice him and you will succeed  go out and do so in other words that'll work now   you know if one of the spirits had stepped forward  you know i always think of like arnold horschack   who dates me or from the 70s you know oh you know  stan in the back of the classroom waving his arm   if one of them would have said something stupid  you know god would have said that isn't going to   work we'll call on you some other day you know you  take a break or whatever but they have a meeting   and god has already determined ahab's got to go  but he lets them come up with the means by which   ahab's going to get deceived and die and  this isn't the only passage like this you   have a divine council court scene in daniel 7  you've got one in daniel 4. you know where god   allows these lesser beings to participate with him  in in making these decisions getting things done   and a lot of christians object to this  well god doesn't need a counsel you know   what what do you see and i'm like you're right  he doesn't god doesn't need any of this stuff   he doesn't need the church he doesn't need you why  would he give the great commission he doesn't need   people to decide you know who's going to be in  heaven and who isn't or you know stuff like that   god doesn't need a blasted thing but what god has  done is he's created beings like himself and he   likes to see beings like himself participate  with him be his partners in doing things   god just likes to do that and this is a good  example was this spirit so this this verse one   i've never heard this verse taught at a church  or this passage and there's there's a lot here   to unpack so on one hand you're saying that god  preordained or had set the time saying all right   ahab's time is up so there's already a discussion  of uh free will and determination could view it as   a pre-ordained thing or you could view it as  god reaching a point where this guy is gonna   now it's time for this guy to go yeah he's  frustrated regardless of that go ahead and   then the other one is okay so this other spirit  comes forward is this a by tradition would this   be a demon or would this be a you know an angel  that god is gonna use to uh bring this calamity   and i guess this also leads into the question  of can god be the author of and would this be   considered evil or just disaster on someone  uh yeah i know that's a different there's a   couple things unpacked there it's a good question  because the the same word it's the hebrew word ra is used for moral evil and also just general bad  stuff you know unfortunate things that happen   you know i could i can you know slam my toe  against the you know the side of my desk here   that's raw okay that that was an unfortunate  thing that happened because i'm in pain now   has nothing to do with moral evil but i  would use the same word to describe it   as i would you know somebody committing  a crime okay so you have you have overlap   there i don't see any any evidence here or  in other passages that evil beings and in   biblical theology evil is defined as that which  is oppositional to god's character and his will   okay um i don't i don't see these beings as being  hostile to god's character or will at any point   i like to put it this way if you know if you're in  an adversarial relationship to god you are not on   his payroll okay you just aren't don't show up  for work monday you're not in a payroll anymore   you know that's rebellion and the bible  describes plenty of of that and what happens   to those figures but anyway what i see happening  here is you have a member of the heavenly host   that comes up with the means by which god you know  knows this will work on ahab because he knows ahab   pretty well you know this he's going to fall for  this so god is judging a wicked man which is an   understatement in ahab's case he's judging evil  human evil by the means of deception and so the   question is is god allowed to do that and the  answer to that is yeah yeah he is allowed to do   that for instance in joshua you know god tells  joshua how to take a city where you go in there   and you pretend you're being beaten and then you  withdraw and then i'll draw them out of the city   and then the guys that you've hidden behind the  city can come over and now you get them trapped   okay it's used you know it's how i is taken  the city of i it's deception you know when when   when samuel is tasked with anointing david in  first samuel 16 okay so so saul was the first   king and god is basically fed up with saul  because saul is a rebel okay god says to say   okay go anoint david you know saul's  still alive he's still the king but no   david's going to be king and sam was like  well if somebody stops me when i go into town   and they ask you know like what are you doing  here i can't just like blurt out well i'm here   to annoy david as king because you know saul's  the king and so god says look here's what you do   you go in there you take a heifer with you and if  anybody asks you what you're doing you say i have   come to sacrifice to the lord okay that's what  you tell them and that's how it plays out he does   he does offer the sacrifice so he doesn't actually  tell a falsehood but he withholds information   wow that's okay that's so god is actually saying  in the so god has in several instances in the   bible actually instructed people to be less  truthful right to either to either deceive or   to withhold information you know jesus actually  does this too and again in in the old testament   here's what here's what it comes down to  are we in the position to tell god how he   punishes sin and the answer to that is no okay  god gets to decide how he wants to punish evil   how he wants to bring evil to it to its end okay  this is why the bible says vengeance is mine   says the lord not yours you don't take things  into your own hands this is not the the human   you know role this is god's role to decide how  evil gets punished or how evil doers are thwarted   you know so so it's like you know if if i'm in  world war ii and and i'm hiding a jew and then the   nazis come to my door where are the jews i'm not  going to tell them and i feel that is morally fine   okay because i am thwarting an evildoer you know  that i'm gonna i'm gonna use god's example to do   that you know the commands are not given  the truth telling command is not given   so that we can do evil or that we can facilitate  evil or that we can make people feel like crap   okay when my wife says do i look fat in  this dress am i compelled by the by the   ten commandments to give her exhaustive details on  everything that i see vengeance is mine would be   the problem there or am i a man that i should  lie if i'm a christian doctor and an a person   you know a grieving parent comes to me and says  did my little boy suffer before he died oh yeah he   did let me tell you all the ways that he suffered  you know no that is not why the commands are there   the commands are there to thwart evil just  generally you know but but again we we we don't   even really think about what god's doing i brought  up jesus jesus tells his disciples in a number of   cases you know after he wants to conceal his  identity on a few occasions he doesn't want it   to be known who he is and you know where he's  going and why he's going there and so he says   don't tell anyone that this or that event happened  like he just heals somebody or whatever it is   you know don't tell anyone who i am  don't tell anyone that you know i just   you know healed this person because he  knows people are going to ask and jesus has   reasons again because he knows the overall plan of  god that both humans and supernatural evil do not   know they don't know all the details i discussed  this in unseen realm and so even that direction is   designed to facilitate god's plan and prevent evil  from having its way this is why we have commands   and this is why god does what he does so it's up  to god to decide how evil is going to be punished   he has every right to punish it because he's  god and if we're honest we want evil punish too   and and god just says look this is not your place  to do this by your own means i'm god okay you're   not i will take care of this you know and i'm  going to give you some guidelines you know i'm   going to give you commands and whatever so that  you kind of know you know how i think about these   things i'm going to give you commands so that you  again either thwart evil in your own life you know   evil and self-destruction all this or thwart it  in somebody else's life or you don't you don't   have to do this to facilitate evil there are ways  to deal with evil so god gives us you know again   guidelines but he knows we aren't him he knows  we're imperfect but you know giving giving that   given that we're is what he has to work with which  isn't a whole lot he does the best he can okay   you know without taking away our our free will  without turning us into robots you know god gives   us guidelines and so this is this is what we see  reflected in scripture these stories are there   to inform us as to how god has the authority to  treat evil and by example how we should behave   so that we don't proliferate evil and we don't  enable it you know we don't we don't uh you know   do its job for it you know these sorts of things  so when god says am i a man that i should lie   there's we are you saying we have to  delay there's a difference between   omission or uh you know differential propagation  of information to achieve a benevolent outcome   versus i'm i'm not going to follow through  with what i'm saying i'm going to do   i think i think first of all there is a difference  between telling a falsehood and withholding   information okay there is a difference there and  you know this is standard ethicist you know stuff   aside from that there are there are parameters  that dictate how both of those things are   understood for instance if i'm a christian  quarterback when i look left and throw right   i don't have to repent afterwards okay the no  look pass in basketball is not a moral evil   because everybody knows it's a game and this is  part of the game these things are part of how   the game is is done all right so you  you can't answer the question without   a given set of parameters or context but generally  yes there is a difference between telling a   falsehood you know like affirming something that's  contrary to reality or you know again for what as   an ethicist you could start slicing away at this  for personal gain self-preservation you know   all this stuff that you talk about ethics class  but but there are there is a difference between   withholding information and telling a falsehood  when your three-year-old comes up and says   you know am i going to get a sister or a brother  you know we tell her that mommy's going to have   a baby well how'd that happen oh well the  the holy scriptures you know pro you know   insist that we have to give her detailed  exhaustive you know information as to how   babies are created that's ridiculous okay it's  just ridiculous and frankly it's inappropriate   so we can tell her things like you know mommy  and daddy love each other and we're gonna   have a baby okay you know i mean within  the three-year-old world that that   ought to be a satisfactory answer you might have  to you know come up with something different   you are affirming something that's true but  you are definitely withholding information   you know life is just filled with these things  and and scripture is you know has a number of   these things in it and it also gives us parameters  as to how to here's the role of wisdom literature   how to live wisely in other words how to image  god how to reflect god's nature and character   in the circumstances of life again knowing  that we aren't perfect like god but but our   intent is to try to to to behave as god would  within the boundaries that god has given us   so that we don't we don't assume his role  and we don't facilitate evil that's wisdom   literature it's wisdom living it's not perfect  living it's not perfect literature you know   again we we tend to caricature these sorts of  things in scripture and it's really easy if you're   if you have a pulpit to make people feel frankly  small and hopelessly guilty about certain things   without you know realizing that god understands  your limitations he's doing the best he can   by you you know honoring again the way he made you  which includes you know free will it's cheating   by the way to say that god shared his attributes  with us except for that one okay that's cheating   you know we affirm these things we try to honor  god with our decisions and the way we live   we try to use the information we have to make the  best decisions and if it comes out later that you   know we we didn't really make the best decision  or we failed or we rebelled you know i don't you   know i know what i'm supposed to do but i'm going  to do this you know the lord loves us you know we   we confess those things and we you know isn't  it wonderful that the message of the gospel   is that we don't have to we don't have to  think that god's positive disposition toward   us is based on our performance because romans 5 8  says while we were yet sinners christ died for us   before we had any thought of caring what  god thought about about what we do at all   while we were sinners while we were in a state of  rebellion he you know christ died for us okay god   loves us he he doesn't he doesn't judge his  his feelings towards us by the way we perform   now as believers he can be disappointed but  he's still going to love us because he loved   us before we became believers you know  we have reduced a lot of these things to   you know christians are some of the  most guilt-ridden people that i know   um i mean i i was there i remember that  phase of my my christian life until you   till you get it in your head you know like  romans 5 8 i mean how much clear could it be   you know it god knows he knows we're  dust he knows what he's dealing with   he loves us anyway and you know he he has more  mercy on us than he does on his spiritual family   you know this is hebrews 2. you know he the  writer of hebrews talks about the relationship of   god's human family in terms of redemption  as opposed to the angels the heavenly host   and they're not the ones that the incarnation was  about the incarnation is about god becoming man   not one of them we are the object of his mercy not  them and that's up for god to decide yeah wow i   so we're getting here towards the end and i want  to make sure there's a couple topics i really   want to make sure to get into and um a bit of a  lightning round here we've talked about calamity   and god's positive disposition towards us there's  a couple verses uh including the micaiah story   you just shared that have always sort of given  me just pause and trouble and one is when jesus   tells peter that satan has asked him to sift has  asked to sift peter and jesus but don't worry   i prayed for you we got this and then the whole  interaction with job in the beginning of job where   you know satan is wandering to and fro the  earth and uh he and god seem to have at a   first glance the sort of callous you know  gambling discussion about see this guy job   he's fantastic nothing will turn him against me  and then satan gives the the famous now challenges   and it seems in each instance god isn't causing  the calamity towards joe but he does seem to give   this overarching permission and the thing in my  kaya you shared god's all right go and do that so   how does that play out is there a dynamic here  where i guess what is the interaction which one   do you want to start with let's start with uh well  if i would love what is the interaction between   the adversary and god um from the perspective  those two verses and i'm glad you put it that   way because the the satan the satan figure in job  one and two is not the devil and that's because of   hebrew grammar hebrew is like english it doesn't  tolerate a definite article the word uh in front   of a proper personal name and in every instance in  job 1 and 2 and zechariah 3 you have ha that's the   hebrew definite article ha satan it's the satan  the adversary it's not a proper personal name   even though english bibles capitalize it and  that's again how we're taught about it so what   you have is you have a divine council meeting  we're not really told if if hasatan the satan is   a member of the council like the decision makers  or if he just shows up that's kind of incidental   but what he's doing is he's doing his job this  is actually i did a whole episode on this on   my podcast naked bible podcast on on heavenly  books okay we're familiar with the book of life   you know all that stuff there's actually a number  of different books that the bible alludes to it   uses this metaphor you know to to basically make  the point that nothing that happens on earth in   your life good or bad is missed you know it's  not that god has a bad memory the metaphor is   designed to tell you that nothing is overlooked  you know his heavenly agents record and watch   and so on and so forth and so one of those is this  guy because look god asked him hey where you been   and he and he answers i've been going to and  fro throughout the whole earth you know the   the adversary that the challenger  he gets translated different ways   is there to to observe who's obeying or disobeying  god and then report back that's all that's his job   he's doing his job so he shows up and he gives  this answer and god says hey have you have you   checked out job you know i mean that guy  is blameless i mean he's he's wonderful   and and the satan answers yeah yeah i've seen  him but you know what if you took away everything   that he had and you afflicted him he would curse  you to your face okay now we've crossed the line   what line have we crossed we have  in a meeting of the heavenly host we have challenged god's integrity does god  really know you know what job is like or is he   is he just like painting a better  picture than god really knows what's up   and he's also challenging god's omniscience so there are two challenges on the table now  god could look at him like the time bandits   movie there's another one that dates me okay  and just blow up this guy like like what did   you say you know you know are you talking to me  don't ever talk to me like that again you know   god could do that but you know what if he  does it the questions are still in the room   okay it doesn't accomplish anything so  god basically has to have this play out   to defend his own integrity and his own  omniscience in front of everybody else   which is why he tells the satan okay you can do  whatever you want to job except for killing him   because i don't want you to come back here and say  oh well he'd have buckled if i'd had done this but   he died you know no no you're not allowed to kill  him you do anything you want and we're gonna see   who's right we're gonna see who's right now  job doesn't know any of this and that's the   point of job sometimes the righteous suffer  and you have no idea why job is never given an   answer even at the end of the book when he  gets everything restored and all he's still   god never answers him he never tells him  what happened like in the first two chapters   and and that's that's the part of a wisdom book  like job that the reader has to come to grips with   that i may never know you know in this life but  i have to trust god's integrity in whatever this   experience is there must be some reason that makes  sense to god as to why this is happening to me   you know so so god doesn't he's not behind the  satan yet let's do some more evil here you know   i gotta you know i got a few hours to kill you  know do some no he's not doing that he has to   actually defend his own integrity in front of  the rest of the members of the heavenly host   is that because the spirit though it seems like  i mean if i'm playing job's advocate here it's it   seems really unfair on one hand because like you  know and i don't think i don't think that that   i don't think that the book of job would tell  you it's fair yeah it is unfair yeah he doesn't   deserve any of this the spirit could have just  made up something to be like i mean what have you   got it wrong because the spirit is wrong in some  sense right because it takes job job holds out for   a while before he finally just you know laments  and uh and it's let's play that out okay so so god   gets gets miffed at the satan and state i was just  kidding does everybody else in the room know that   no it's well he's got to prove his point he's  he's been challenged he has to act now and i'm   saying the spirit the spirit by even raising the  objection even if wrong has now forced god to say   i gotta take this now i gotta prove this point and  so god is god is again living with his decision   to create these beings and share his attributes  with them this is mind-blowing i've never heard   joe like uh explain this way okay so take me to  take me to jesus now um with him telling peter hey   satan has asked to sift you yeah i what what  i think the the point of that is that satan   wants to either facilitate or capitalize on on  a perception that he has of peter and i think   both of them are running both of those possible  trajectories run in the same direction and that is he wants peter to no longer believe you know again if you look at the context of  what's going on here and you know what what   peter's upset about that that could very  well you know so doubt in his mind i mean   you know jesus coming off you know the peter's  confession passage and then the transfiguration   then that the gospel writer says and from this  point forward jesus began to teach his disciples   that he needed to go to jerusalem and die like  what you know and so you know peter wants to   stop this but this is exactly what needs to happen  and so the the fact that that this guy jesus   not only could die but but says he's gonna die   how in the world can this be what i thought it  was you know the messiah of israel and peter still   got in his head about deliverance from the romans  and the kingdom coming and like what what is this   and so again if i'm satan i'm thinking oh here's  an opportunity because you know and again a lot   of a lot of your listeners who maybe you know are  raised in a in a particular brand of christianity   you know we're taught once saved all was saved  once you once you pray this prayer you know   you you cannot lose your salvation well i  i agree that you can't lose your salvation   you realize if you use a word like lose then  salvation depends on performance and it does not   okay but what you can you can only do two things  with the offer of salvation the grace of god you   can accept it or reject it and there are plenty of  places in the in the book of hebrews for instance   where the writer is worried that people will  fall into unbelief people who already you know   have embraced the gospel they're going  to go off and and refuse to believe it   the gospel is not mouthing a a couple of words  like it's an incantation okay the gospel is   believing so yes you have eternal security  if you believe if you don't believe you don't   all right it's it's the question is always do  you believe whether it's now or 20 years ago or   i mean do you believe and so here we have an  opportunity for satan to get peter to reject to sow some doubt and have him cross the line  to unbelief is that what sift means there is   sift mean to like i think i think the terminology  is generic but i i think i think the the end game   of the of the sifting you know in other words you  know i guess you can use it use the the metaphor   that's wrapped up you know in the semantic here  about separation you know separating him you know   from from his faith in jesus and whatnot i think  that's really what he's going for this is this is   a moment that he can get people or peter to turn  to unbelief i just don't believe this anymore   why would i if this guy is  going to die why would i   again he doesn't i mean think about luke 24 the  risen christ is standing in front of them all   and they still don't get it i mean that  luke says jesus had to open their minds to   understand it's the risen christ dude i mean what  and you still don't get it no they didn't and   it's not because they're stupid and if you read  unseen realm you know i have a whole chapter on   why messianic prophecy was intentionally  cryptic that is god is not putting all his   cards on the table when when when when demons  and satan and kind of jesus they know who he is   and they know why he's there in terms of how they  want this to end it's like oh here he is you know   son of god son of david you know if he showed up  god's still at that silly business of you know   kick-starting the kingdom of god and returning  to earth and having his family here we go again   but they don't know how it's going to be  accomplished they don't know the means to the end   because paul says in first corinthians 2 that had  the rulers of this world know they never would   have crucified the lord of glory because that  is the catalyst to their end once that happens   it's irreversible you know you we talk about the  resurrection a lot you can't have a resurrection   unless you have a death okay it has to happen  not only just to fulfill old testament typology   but but to to to have a someone all the covenants  in the old testament are made with humans   and you look well god that was a stupid idea on  god's part because humans always fail yeah they do   but god has an ace in the hole god's solution  to having all the covenants fulfilled without   changing the rules is to become a man okay i will  become a man and i'll fulfill all of them and and   not only that but i have to reverse the effect  of the first rebellion genesis 3 which is death   well the only way you can reverse death is to have  an eternal being die and rise through again the   only way you can rise is to have a death i mean  all of these things are so obvious in hindsight   but they don't have that kind of  hindsight yet and even in luke 24   they are just right on top of the first  unexpected event was somebody put him on a cross   and the second unexpected event is like wow  he's he's risen from the dead and here he is   and again luke says jesus had to open  their minds to enable them to understand   it's only in hindsight that you can look back  on the old testament and say oh you know that   passage could have that could have meant three or  four things now i know which one of you is there   a place here where so and based on what we see in  the micaiah verse and satan asking god what is in   your opinion just this interaction between  them is there is there a dynamic here where   the whatever the evil force is is always trying  to afflict humanity and it has to get permission   to do these things or these specific cases only  yeah i don't think we can say evil has to get   permission to be evil or to become evil you know  again this is this is part of what we would in   theology we would call free will theodicy if your  listeners are interested in that by the way the   best the best academic work on this is by brian  peckham theodicy of love it's a you know it's a   it's not an it's not just an introduction to  free will the odyssey because it's written   for professional philosophers but it's it's also  written for normal people oh good who aren't you   know don't have a phd in philosophy but you know  he's he's doing both he covers all the ground   um you know free will creates the possibility that  evil can happen now there's also a sense though   where in human interaction with evil you know in  there are some episodes where evil is trying to   take over someone or you know do something to  them or get you know tempt them to do x y or z you use the word permission permission is  where the free will of one being trying to   move another being toward an action meets  up with the free will of that other being   and that other being has to consent i mean there  is an element of consent and permission here   you know a free will being is not helpless to  another free will being in terms of this battle   for the mind and all that kind of stuff so that  that's why we're presented with with you know   you know other passages were and you know  frankly if you talk to people who are into the   occult or you know whatever i mean permission  comes up a lot i mean you have to solicit   you have to give yourself to that thing you have  to make the decision whatever language they use   that's an element of this because you have  two free will agents going at it you know one   one direction or the other interesting i  it just it seems because like you have i've   always wondered too and this is probably another  discussion um because i know we're running out on   time here but when you look at what happened  with saul and then paul and his thorn and it   and and god and i think it's i was reading  in isaiah i think it's 45 where god says i   am the author of light and darkness of go and  calamity there's this thing where you know god   is somehow he doesn't cause it but he it seems  there's an interaction there where he does he   just in his he allows these bad things to happen  i think some of the difficulty for a traditional   you know christian with a verse like that and  just let's just say like just calamity that just   happens like natural disasters or something like  that is is this sort of the way we we look at the   world you know we we tend we make mistakes like  all the world was originally eaten when it's not   i mean eaton has its own geography it's a tiny  tiny little piece of the original world outside   of eden by definition it's less than eden god  god deems it very good but he doesn't use the   the text there does not use the hebrew word for  perfect even though that's the way we're taught   about the original creation it was not created  perfect god was satisfied with the way it was made   it its forces are under restraint but they're  still dangerous if you leave eden and go outside   of you know into the non-perfect but still  really good really cool world you could   get hurt you know i mean because nature  is nature does what it's created to do   you know all these things aren't by definition the  result of a fall i think the fall it accentuates   accelerates proliferates you know whatever word  you want to use there it contributes to the to the   chaotic conditions plus there is no eden anymore  okay i mean there's that so in a lot of ways when   when people suffer in a world that is not perfect  i let's let's just not even use the word you   know fallen for the sake of this moment in this  discussion people can can suffer in an imperfect   world by definition because it's not perfect  and neither are they and that just is what it is   you know god isn't like pushing buttons lightning  bolt here zap that guy you know it's just the way   it is that's the way nature works and you need to  realize this is it's doing what it was designed   to do it might be made worse by a fall and all  that kind of stuff but we tend to not think that   you know and as soon as we assign every  event to to an intelligent evil then   that that thought leaks over into some of these  other things we're talking about you know well   you know it was is god ultimately behind that  button pushing well there is no button pushing   going on you know what i mean it it's just the  way the the issue is framed but on other in other   instances like you know with mikaya you know god  does say i have decided i agree good good idea   we're going to punish ahab's evil and good  grief we've all seen enough of it this way   good idea he's going to fall for that in a  heartbeat because ahab likes the sound of his   own name okay you know we just know this is going  to work and so god chooses along in this case with   you know with this idea that emerges from his his  heavenly host to punish evil in a particular way   god can be the cause in that sense you know  of calamity it's not a moral evil because   a it's god doing it god's character is you know  what it is and he's he evil is being judged by   you know a good god who who doesn't like evil but  he is willing to punish it one thing as we wrap up   here and i want i want to do a last question and  then um a quick little uh highlight question too   so we talked about god has instructed at various  points actually people to behave in ways that we   might consider a little more crafty or you know  withhold information etc there's another question   that comes up constantly i find myself and others  who have struggled with some of this is that   in the old testament it seems like god on the  surface is guilty of contradicting his own his own   rules which i want and i go if he is god i guess  if he's the author of morality he has permission   to break it at any point but you know there's  parts where you know whether it's elisha you know   basically murdering children by calling bears on  them and jesus saying no no bring bring children   to me or a habitually misunderstood passage but  right yeah but going on and then also um you know   god's saying you know hey you have to honor the  sabbath but then there are times where he tells   israelites to do things like carry the ark  around uh on um you know on on the sabbath   as well are are all those sort of instances  where it seems on the surface that god is just   contradicting himself are those all usually  explainable um away if you look at the context   of each one i i i think so um in the in the elisha  example i mean you know quite honestly the best   answer i can give you is i'm going to send you  joel burnett's article on that okay he teaches   it i i think it's yeah there's a couple burnettes  there but yeah i think it's a jewel but the   they're not actually children they are young  men but they're men and the context there is i   there's an idolatrous context going there  because of the of the uh the element of bethel   that's in the story there's a storyline there that  that's frequently missed here again the bottom   line is god is judging those who have rejected it  okay on on the other uh instance you i'm trying   to remember what it was honoring the sabbath  and then there's the sabbath yeah well isn't   it interesting let me let's ask ourselves this  this question that again i'm sure there's somebody   in your audience that's going to think this is  blasphemous but that's good that's good instagram in in genesis you know two where it says you  know that god rested okay on the seventh day does that really mean that god from  that point forward does nothing of course not okay the the context of the resting  is he rests from his creative activity he's done who maintains all that who supervises it who has  sovereignty okay those are god's roles god is not   like well i can flip the light you know i can  unscrew the light bulb now i'm i'm inactive now   for the rest of time and he turned you know god  is constantly at work after the first six days so   we we misunderstand the sabbath in the sense that  god's good goals are still being played out and so   if god wants to say hey it's the sabbath but it's  the art and the ark's supposed to be transported   a certain way and i've told you you're supposed  to get off your butts and take the ark somewhere   it's okay okay because this is furthering the  plan of god in this you know whatever the scene is   so again i think it's because of the way we  we think about certain terms that i should   say that we really don't think we don't we  kind of don't ask ourselves certain questions   and that leads us to conclusions that may not be  hopelessly wrong but they're not quite accurate so   i guess it's similar when they get mad at jesus  for healing on the sabbath and he says you know   can we not do good on the on the lord's day right  healing someone is to bring them into a condition   that they would have experienced in the house  of god in eden life as it should be lived   is that not a holy and good thing yeah no that's  a that's a great point i love that verse too when   they get like i love that sometimes they get more  upset about him healing and not like dude this guy   got healed like mind-boggling like well bro you  can't heal broken leg like you can't grow limbs   back it's sunday you can't do that can't you at  least be happy for the guy just right now the guy   sitting there like i can see we're all missing the  point here so it's uh i know i'm a man this is so   mind-boggling uh we're just gonna have to have  you back because we did not cover uh giants and   lizards and uh and all sorts of canaanites and all  the stuff that will get you banned from balrogs   i don't know if there's any biblical precedent  for balrogs and gandalf but we will definitely   have to uh and i did want to ask you too next  time we'll have to talk about um your commentary   on stranger things and the upside down uh i  gotta be honest that dark creature in season two   is terrifying uh and if they did a good job  they did a good job um have you read the little   gospel in stranger things book no i haven't  i mean yeah you know that was easy to write   and not just because i love the show but i what  i appreciate most about is i don't think for a   minute that the guys who write the show are trying  to slip theology into the show i don't think   they're doing that at all but what's cool about it  is that it just happens and it happens a lot and   that's because again you know again blasphemous  thought number two oh good all right here we go   i often tell people you would get a lot more out  of the bible if you read it like it was fiction   because when you read fiction your mind works a  different way you know when you're reading a novel   i bet i'll see that place again i bet i'll hear  that little snippet of dialogue again i'll bet   i'll see that car again you know intuitively  that the writer is acting with intention on you   you know you're being steered and played with  okay you you know that that's going on and if we   read the bible like it was written that way with  intelligence that there's a meta-narrative there's   a story being told instead of a checklist or a  bullet point i better memorize this for the quiz   okay if we read the bible like it was a novel  we would get a whole lot more out of it and and   good storytelling like in stranger things will  map over to good storytelling and the biblical   meta narrative is a story well told and so  there's a lot of stuff in there that that   is just it's really good for today's audience to  the way the show does certain things and crafts   certain characters how easily that maps over to to  biblical theology i mean i i can't really put it   any other way and i think i think what they did  with the evil that that figure again the the uh not just in the monstrous part but but the whole   you know the whole notion of its  intelligence and its interconnectivity   um is one of the best illustrations of of how  i think the bible presents supernatural evil   that i've ever seen you know i'll i'll  leave your listeners with this one thought   you know the mind flare and and the hive mind  concepts create this impression of invincibility   but the fact is and you you think  about this as you watch the show it's hive mind is not only its greatest  strength but it's its greatest weakness   it cannot anticipate it can only learn and never  forget okay it cannot anticipate what they're   doing when it sees what they're doing it will  never forget it and it will use it and track on   it which is why they're able to succeed because  everybody has a role to play it cannot anticipate   what's going on and that's how they win and that  that's really what's going on you know we have   we have this mythology that evil supernatural  beings can read our minds and know everything   they actually can there isn't a verse for that  zero only god has that capability they are not god   okay they can learn and they have very  long memories but that's that's their   weakness they cannot anticipate what  another imager might do ahead of time   so it's it's just this wonderful portrayal  of both the power but also the limitation   of supernatural evil i mean and the book you know  it's just a tiny little book but but the show is   just is just full of these these little insights  like this that that just happen and they're not   doing any of this intentionally they're just there  because they know how to tell a good story and it   just maps it it was fun to read or fun to write  you know it it's probably the easiest book ever   because it was it was like just laid out for me  you know once i had once i watched the episodes   three or four times and took notes it's like  oh man this is gonna be fun this is gonna   be so much fun that's so good well we're gonna  watch netflix traffic spike uncontrollably now   as a result of this viewing they'll owe me a thank  you note i'm going to go back and watch it because   that was uh that show was that show was a lot of  fun and uh yeah mind flare i forgot about that was   a that was terrifying that scene when they're in  the department store and the the various creatures   are all circling for him and i was like man that  is uh it was it was yikes but man what a what a   good show and i love i love the sheriff is it jim  i forget his last name but jim yeah hopper oh yeah   hopper he is fantastic so this is great well dr  heiser thank you so much for joining us dr heiser   is the host of the naked bible podcast uh don't  be alarmed by the title it's just theological so   but uh we uh but he's uh also what was the  name of your book the companion book to   stranger things so we can get that out there  it's called the world turned upside down uh   finding the gospel in stranger things there  you go and go check out the unseen realm   blow your mind if you like this discussion  on job just wait there's so much more   on there so hopefully you'll come back  and see us again dr heiser remotely   but thank you so much for your time i really  appreciate thank you absolutely awesome thank you so much for listening to  kind of christian hope you enjoyed   this episode if you did please  subscribe and leave us a 5 star review

Channel: Kinda Christian

Views: 55,567

Rating: 4.890244 out of 5

Keywords: Michael heiser, unseen realm, christian apologetics, Old Testament, nephilim, christianity, seminary resources, christian pastors, prayer, bible sermons, Jesus scholar, Christian resources, christian life, Hebrew scholar, hearing god, Kinda Christian

Id: MIcnWOlIbAs

Length: 75min 37sec (4537 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 03 2020