Michael Heiser | Stranger Things | Steve Brown, Etc. | Key Life

[Music] finding the gospel and something as trivial something as silly as pop culture well stranger things have happened let's talk about it with dr. Michael s Heiser Steve Brown etc he's an old white guy an author broadcaster and seminary professor who's sick of religion and he's brought friends please welcome this is Steve Brown etc I am Matthew Porter I am NOT the old white guy I am pinch-hitting today for the old white guy I want to I want to reflexively say I'm the young white guy but that's not that's not even close I have I looked in the bathroom mirror this morning and I have empirical evidence that I'm clearly not you're not a young kid anyway I'm I'm your rodeo clown for today can we just we'll just run getting older white guy yes moving towards being the old white guy the the true young white guy is our favorite resident megachurch pastor Zach Van Dyke I'm not that young either man I'm I'm close to food it's relative six kids that make ya'll fast man so speaking of the six kids we just got past Thanksgiving so tell me over Thanksgiving did you guys consume more turkey and stuffing or more Disney Plus we probably Disney Plus because I made the turkey for the first time ever and it was okay nothing okay did you stuff it I yeah and I pulled all them I don't know why they leave this stuff inside it and separate the amateurs for the I got the bag out but the neck that smoke right inside the bird I've been there I've done that too that was her head turkey chef / producer jinx he's working hard in the little glass booth since we're talking about TV shows today in pop culture jinx do you have a favorite TV show favorite oh no you know anything along the lines of Burn Notice nice excellent mr. John Meyers is working in the tech bunker he is our video director in switch-hitting well I asked him ahead of time I said we're gonna talk about TV stuff John what's a what's your favorite TV show he actually said My Little Pony Friendship is Magic and I thought well a bold choice for a grown man but I support you I'm wrong econ 2020 I'm here for it dr. George Bingham is here he's the president of key life I know your favorite TV show I want you to tell me but I want to into it kind of I feel like I want to I know this is not right but I want to see Grizzly Adams I don't know yeah yeah well serving as the you know old white guy stand-in yes no actually I like reruns of Last Man Standing okay that's that that is a good one yeah it has some good I like I like the political stuff I can't believe they get away with it I thought you were gonna say reruns of Seinfeld yeah yeah not that there's anything wrong please do because of all the easy to do moving on Cathy Wyatt is the soft feminine side of the program as you well know now again I don't know your favorite TV show I want to guess that it would involve the words bake-off their championship or ultimate anything male or is it Miami Vice no it has nothing to do with baking coz I'm terribly intimidated by all those people that really know what they're doing in the kitchen oh then you haven't seen nailed it he'll probably no watch that you'll feel better that's awesome okay well here's a guy who nailed it she didn't say though it's I don't even know because I mean it doesn't have anything to do with the moniker that yes gets hung on me all the time about the baking oh wow I'm so much more than that you're 31 flavors and then some yeah exactly me and Howard Johnsons you don't know me at Baskin Robbins awesome well one of the favorite TV shows of today's guest is a Netflix show called stranger things and our guest is dr. Michael s Heiser he is a biblical scholar he's an author blogger and podcaster he's written numerous best-selling books including the unseen realm supernatural and the Bible unfiltered Michael serves as the executive director of the School of Technology at celebration church and his latest book is titled the world turned upside down finding the gospel in stranger things welcome Michael first thing I have to say is this this right here of this book design absolutely fantastic it force yeah they did a nice job whether I I think it's the best you guys got to check this out so welcome thanks for being here yeah thank you I need to correct one quick correction I'm not the executive director of the School of Technology okay that would that would horrify my current employer only one correction so far we're doing way better than this ahead of the curve head of the curve thank you thank you starts with the same letter what kind of church had a school of technology that was so around the table we have split between folks who know and love the show and folks who will soon know and love the show so to set the table for us Michael can you tell us a little bit about the stranger thing series what it's about what's the vibe of this thing yeah this the show is set in a small town Hawkins Indiana in 1983 and the show opens with four kids they're middle schoolers playing Dungeons & Dragons and it's dark now so we've got to get on our bikes and ride home and you know my kids asked me was there really a time when you what do you like did that you know when you just rode around on your bikes yeah that's the way we grew up on the way home one of these kids gets abducted and we know as the viewer that there's something otherworldly behind this disappearance the vanishing of Willow Byers and so that sets the tone for the show there's something otherworldly the show's version of a supernatural reality a reality beyond our own it's these kids it's what happened to will and as his friends in the end of the first episode are out looking in the woods trying to retrace their friends steps they encounter a girl in the woods their same age again middle schooler she's wearing nothing but a hospital gown her head is shaved she can barely speak and communicate when they bring her home and so you the viewer it sort of intuitively know that there's some relationship here between the disappearance of the boy and this really out of place girl again in the middle of the woods soaking wet in the rain and that those two things drive the show what happened to will and what is going on with this girl who later you know identify as 11 she does not have a name but she has a tattoo with the number 11 and so that's you know sort of the guts of the show you're introduced to the two main trajectories you know really the three main trajectories these two kids and then this otherworldly reality that is behind the whole you know all the currents of the show so that you're just drawn in right away it's brilliant because the main characters are kids so it gets that demographic and everything is in the 80s so the kids parents just get sucked into the show too and the attention to detail is just quite remarkable throughout the whole thing that's awesome yeah they certainly set the hook within five minutes that's like ten minutes if you're not if you're not captured by then it's not gonna be for you they really do draw and so we'll get into the specifics of these parallels that you that you lay out in the book but I'm curious what what about the series is it specifically and you talk about this in the book that drew you that kind of captured your attention and and when was that moment when you're watching and going this is a book I got to write a book about this well you know the book wasn't my idea that I mean the the the people at Alexa you know I had my bread and butter as an academic is the the supernatural world view of the Bible so they knew that and they knew I love the show and so they to them this was the perfect marriage and when they proposed the idea I said yeah you know that that's really an excellent idea because I saw any of these this isn't the book isn't like oh here's this part of this scene that's part of the story over here and that you you know this part of the by now it's not it's a whole lot deeper than that there are a lot of theological themes that run through the show you know I think unbeknownst to the show's creators it just tracks so well so I could see the idea mattering right away and for me the show I was drawn in like you said by the first episode I was interested in what they were gonna do with what becomes known as the upside down this alternate reality and of course the girl like what in the world is going on here very intriguing but I think better than that you know more than that if the show does get people because you know of the attention to detail with the 80s so there's a nostalgia effect there's this there's this supernatural effect because most of the people in our our time they are dissatisfied with the materialistic atheistic this is all there is the only thing that's real is what you can you know detect with your five senses worldview they're just dissatisfied with it it doesn't answer the big questions of life people want to believe that there's something transcendent outside themselves that that is this this other reality they they want mystery and so the show just taps into that really well I think that the other thing that draws people in is the characters cuz they're all broken they're all they all have attachment issues and you can it's easy to see yourself in any one of them that's awesome we're gonna talk about that more when we come back our author guest is Michael S Heiser the book is called the world turned upside down finding the gospel and stranger things and we come back we're gonna talk about the will buyers character as we mentioned in the very first episode he disappears just like my capacity for speaking and he disappears into this alternate realm and it sounds fantastic but Michael says there's something very relevant to us as believers about that what does he mean by that we will find out on the other side [Music] [Music] hey you are listening to Steve Brown etc it was recently announced that there will be a fourth season of stranger things in late 2020 and I would guess that no one is more excited about that announcement than our guest today dr. Michael as Iser because his new book is called the world turned upside down finding the gospel and stranger things so hey books got legs I like that so you got to be happy about that right oh yeah yeah it's you know it was fun writing it it was actually very easy I mean what I did was I have a I have a small book that's for seekers called what does God want and the first third of that book is I tell what academics would refer to as salvation history as a story you know it explains and answers you know what what in the world is all this about what it's got one and so what I did was I I thought you know I'm gonna take that story you know the plot lines and the subplots of it and just map it to the show and it was so easy hmm to do because the this show is you know I don't think it's anything you know deliberately Christian but it taps into all the major archetypes of the you know the supernatural epic that we identify as the Bible and I think that it just happens providentially which is kind of neat for me I think I think if I put one word to the show it would be Providence even though the show doesn't attribute anything to Providence but as a viewer as a Christian as somebody who again knows what's going on in Scripture it just screams this is how life is this is how Providence works to me we're gonna get to one of the specific things that you mentioned the book about will buyers disappearing and what we can take away from that right but just something you just said they're kind of touched on what's kind of the underlying theme to me of the book in the end you kind of set this up early in the book is that on a day-to-day basis believers a very often kind of lose sight of the supernatural realm we kind of get caught up in the day-to-day and forget not only are we in a story it's an epic story it existed before we showed up and it is a dramatic story with some powerful forces involved tell us a little bit about how that informed the book yeah I think if you if you stuck a word on it it would be Providence if you stuck a verse on the show be Genesis 50:20 this is the Joseph story you know when he you know his brothers know who he is and then their father dies and they're all in Egypt now the brothers you know think odd Joseph's gonna get us now and he you know he turns to them and says look you meant it for evil but God meant it for good you know to the salvation of all of us and then a whole lot of other people and what you see God had gone on in this show is every character is sort of the product of suffering you know they they all have attachment issues you know the the poster child for what not to do with you know it's Jim hopper I mean he had a terrible tragic loss in his life with his kid you know when she was 5 or 6 years old to cancer it costs him his marriage so he over medicates he drinks he woman eise's but at the end of the day he is this thing of stone that just you know sort of stands in the gap between good and evil and of course the the the little girl 11 we find out that she has these otherworldly powers but she doesn't have them she is not who she is unless she had suffered and and she suffers greatly in her life you know you learned this about her it is as the show goes on and every character is like that every character is broken in the show and and the they begin to their lives begin to intersect with this otherworldly threat that they gradually begin to realize is actually real that there's something going on here and so all of this stuff happens everything sort of concatenates together especially in when that when they're up against you the supernatural evil and they just do what they can and things fall together because they just do what they can and this is how life is in Scripture you know you we tend to look for the spectacular when something's you know spooky spectacular hello God was there the Holy Spirit was active well I Got News for you most of the time in the Bible you know God is present without the spectacular he is always interested he's moving the pieces he's influencing people through other people or through supernatural age see and he is the only one who sees how all the parts fit together and how they can fit together and so again this is the unseen hand that whole theological theme of there's something going on behind the scenes that we cannot control we don't worry about it we just do our job you know as believers I think there's a great metaphor for how the church should be with the people who in the show who experience this alternate reality it changes them you know completely they relate to each other all the other ones that have been touched by this reality it changes the way they work together how they view each other how they view the town you know everything and you know for will you know will is lost he's the the early thing that draws people in and I begin the book white by basically saying look no you know we're all is lost as well buyers we just have to come to grips with this he is in this other reality the upside-down and it's not a good place it's the realm of death it's referred to as the veil of shadows you know we'll knows he's going to die and he has to somehow reach out to the people who love him he's estranged from them I mean look just look at what's in operation here because of the fall if this is the easy analogy we're all under the threat of death the penalty of death death is inevitable we cannot save ourselves no one else can save us it has to take a supernatural intervention for us to be brought back to life you know the whole theme of redemption in Scripture and and this is how the show operates no will will Byers is lost he cannot save himself he is going to die and it takes somebody and that turns out to be 11 again in many cases the least likely character in the show she is the only one because of who she is that can deliver him and every time that she uses her powers to save her friends or to try to help well she bleeds I mean I mean what more can you ask for as a Christian you know to look at this show and and look at its subtleties and how these things converge and come together and and propel the plot it you know it really just sort of screamed for some sort of Christian discussion and that's why you know ultimately I'd wrote the book because this is the kind of show that even for Pete for people who love the show and maybe they hate the church or they they hate Jesus or you know for a dumb reason or maybe a good reason because of their suffering or they were treated bad whatever you can have someone who loves the show you know talk to them with this book or have them read the book and they will be shocked at how well their the show they love maps over to a greater story and and then I think the book will be a great discussion starter for youth groups parents with their kids just anybody again who loves the show they're gonna be shocked at how well the show does this and again that the punchline is unintentionally the show itself to me is Providence hmm that they could create this show that maps so well on so many of Scriptures core themes without them even knowing it that I think that's even worth discussion that's amazing you know you mentioned getting people together to talk about it and you know very often with books we talked about here Steve will say pick it up buy it have a small group and this has got to be the easiest yes ever to get hate you guys want to come over watch Netflix watch this really awesome sci-fi horror series there's some kind of pg-13 violence and language and it's a little bit of sensuality it's nothing that's like super egregious but it's an easy yes to get some copies of this book get a couple of friends together just like Eric and I did the summer to watch episode three over the course of several several nights and have a really great conversation about the fact that God is telling a story with us and through us and it's very Illustrated very beautifully with this book the world upside upside down finding the gospel and stranger things stay with us we'll be back [Music] and thank you for joining us on Steve Brown et cetera we are hanging out with dr. Michael as hyzer find out more from him at dr. M s H comm dr m sh calm and follow him on the Twitter's at M s hyzer m sh e is er Michael I'm dating myself here fulfilling my role as the substitute old white guy but I I was reminded of a book from several decades ago like the Gospel according to peanuts and you know Charles Schulz the great cartoonists were that he was actually asked about his reaction to that book and he said well I obviously didn't intend that but I can't deny that the messages are there and I was wondering if you've had a chance to interact with any of the producers writers of the show and what their reaction is to your book no I I haven't but I would I'd certainly be interested in getting you know their reaction just to see what they would would say so unfortunately no I don't have a good anecdote for that I want to know do you have a chapter on barb that's what I want to know barb I loved barb and she was taken from us too soon yes she got some mention but that's my serious question is is more having to do with how the story how they deal with evil and kind of how evil presents itself in the story and what we can kind of look at that from from maybe a Christian perspective is what they're saying about about evil yeah I really actually appreciate the way they do this because my other books you know and they've sold you know quite well unseen realm and supernatural which is a light version of unseen realm I think that what Christians think they know about angels and demons tends to be very superficial and and really doesn't have a whole lot of attachment to the biblical text this show actually I think has better insights in some respects in this then you know what you'd get normally in church and what the show does is initially you know you have this other reality and then there's this creature you know in the first season the demo Gorgon okay so that that it's sort of a metaphor for death really trying to devour will its hunting will and you know hunting other people as well then the second season you get like mini versions of the demo Gorgon you know you get the demo dogs as Dustin refers to them and you also get introduced to the main evil figure that they named the mind flare or the shadow and that's the Satan figure in the show and then the mind flayer becomes very prominent in season 3 but collectively they function as one they function as a hive mind so that I think is an important insight and the other important insight is yes the show because it uses it repurposes you know lots of horror movies and specific scenes which is kind of one of its trademarks you know to repurpose 80s you know movies and in in their own scenes in the show so you have this grotesque Hollywood kind of portrayal of evil you know where there's this creature monster Lea stuff but what's more subtle is the way that the hive mind manipulates people I think that's really significant and it's also significant because the hive mind really is a great metaphor for how the Bible portrays the powers of darkness in this way I often get questions like well you know how in the world you know how do they do the the demons think they can win or you know what what are we supposed to do against you know supernatural evil you know blah blah blah blah blah you know Blair's this fear of the demonic and the principalities and powers you know and I think the hive mind is great because what it is is also its greatest weakness okay by definition it it it knows everything within the collective if it sees one of the characters do something if it knows where will is or one of the other people it never forgets it learns and never forgets and it reacts in unison all of its entities all of its members but it cannot process it cannot anticipate thinking and actions outside the collective and this is really important it's a closed system so it really illustrates well how believers can do things that intelligent evil does not know it can learn and it will never forget but there is a sense that that human you know freedom free will free will agents and God you know interacting with believers you know through his spirit and you know angels or whatnot that they do operate independently there is a greater intelligence on both sides but the greatest intelligence is the one on the good side you know God's side and as as powerful and as intelligent as evil is it is limited okay it cannot think outside its own collective God is always one step ahead the church is always one step down the road you know that the church really does and can take the offensive against intelligent evil if we would just be mindful that God is interested and active on a moment-by-moment basis instead of just the spectacular it would really I think changed the way we think about our mission in a number of respects it's beautiful well said dog on a chain is an illustration that I've heard before I like that but certainly when you watch this series you think about the phrase steal kill destroy you're like right this is none like it but it's kind of a personification of that idea and it's scary it's something to kind of keep in mind that that's what we're up against but we're not up against it alone we're gonna hear more from dr. Michael s Heiser when we come back his book as the world turned upside down finding the gospel in stranger things if you miss this next segment you will get pulled into the upside-down don't say I didn't warn you [Music] [Music] you are listening to Steve Brown etc and we are hanging out with dr. Michael as Heiser if you like what you hear and let's be honest why wouldn't you then you got to subscribe to our weekly email it's called key live connection it's the best of key life.org delivered directly to your inbox you get some exclusive and early access to content it's it's good stuff you can't beat the price free so while you're thinking about it unless you're driving go to keylight org slash subscribe let's make that happen and you will rise up and say thanks dude you're really good in a spiritual way brother dude he has a vested interest in that kind of stuff Michael there are those in the Christian community who feel like that they should abstain from the whole world of the pop culture thing for what they view is potentially sin that's that's there included in that what where what would you say to that given what I'm hearing you say is so so evident in a program in a serious like stranger things that has so many really really good things in it that they are really good things for people to obviously be able to to see and to hear and to talk about mm-hmm well you know I think every believer it needs to be you know honest with themselves and the key word there is honest if you're weak you know if you really are potentially stumbled you know by maybe seeing something violent on TV or something sexually graphic then then you ought to avoid it that's for sure but a lot of a lot of Christians will avoid these things sort of as a you know as a badge of honor you know brownie points with God you know that kind of thing so I think the motivation really needs it to be examined you know and honestly examined you know if you are weak you know if it is a bad testimony you know to you know watch it you know something with graphics exited with with somebody that is wandering you they have an idea of what a Christian is and and again you're aware of this sort of thing well then you know by all means don't do that but the flip side of it is you know if these things aren't you know personal temptations to you you know if the person you know if there's no question of that this is going to sort of more or tarnish your identity as a believer then I think you ought to actually seriously go the other direction and consider how you can dip into pop culture for the sake of having conversations with people who are lost because let's be honest you know you watch a show and it has you know cuss words and it will sit you know your neighbor probably uses those to you know God has placed you you know in this person's life for a very specific reason and if you have to wonder what that reason is well then you've got some spiritual problems of your own I mean there is this thing called the Great Commission we are placed in the lives of people for the specific purpose of bringing them back into the family of God and so you know there are a lot of things that can bridge you know the gap between you and them and that can facilitate a really meaningful conversation with you know people with your neighbor and so I think pop culture is one of the things that really can bridge those sorts of gaps you know and Christians you know I think hearing that would say well of course I want my neighbor you know to come to the Lord and what not well okay you don't cut yourself off from your neighbor and maybe you can find ways again using pop culture to you know really even spend more time or better time you know with your neighbor then you should do those things they become tools the other question I often get is well you know look at they're playing Dungeons and Dragons in the first scene and it's got all these occult you know themes and it's magic and it's super telekinetic powers and whatnot it's like look you know we have this in Narnia the Narnia Chronicles we have it in the Rings you know and and those are held up and rightly so as really significant Christian cultural works and the reason that they're they're held up in all to be is because they don't blur the line between good and evil and frankly neither two stranger things there's a there's a clear line of good and evil there's a cost to power that's wielded you know even you know with eleven you know with with the use of abilities the there's no ambiguity created in the show between you know that that would confuse a viewer as to what side do I want to be on right the doesn't glorify evil there's no seduction there's no seductive quality to the upside down to the dark side to the mind flayer I mean there's nothing like that in the show and I think you know on that point especially it's very analogous to the Chronicles of Narnia to the Lord of the Rings all that stuff that's going on there Christians you know sort of flocked to then use to have conversations with people who are not believers I think this goes in that bucket mmm for these very obvious reasons so I understand again the the impulse I mean I you know pop culture to me is not an open gate either there are things I you know I I wouldn't watch but there are a lot of things that I think that we if we when we cut ourselves off from these things it really impedes us it's in many respects to having the kinds of conversations with lost people that we really need to have and we're supposed to have we're commanded to have you know it has to go beyond just inviting somebody to a Bible study or to church you know you people have to interact with with you as a believer as a normal person that there has to be engagement on just a normal level for people to not be suspicious of you and be open you know to open themselves to you and this and pop culture is one of the ways to do that it's great I came across a quote yesterday that is not talking about Christianity just talk about sales and they're saying a sale is not something you pursue sale is something that just happens when you're in the pursuit of serving your customers and it's not a perfect analog but I feel like there's something there that's like let's Lee let's love others deeply with the christ-like love in these things are going to kind of these things are gonna kind of happen in pop culture is is it's kind of a common language that we can use to kind of make this conversations happen and you know when push comes to shove you're you're lost neighbor they know that you know promiscuous sex is self-destructive they know this I mean they they might want to want to try to hide it or deny it but deep down they know the the chaos that it shows in the lives of people you know themselves and others around them they know you know that you know drugs and you know abusive alcohol they know all these things are self-destructive so you know if you can sort of engage with them despite the fact that that they're you know they have this this chaos you know running through their lives and they know that you're there with them in some way you're not endorsing it you're actually there to help them and help them be honest with themselves and with what they're doing and and at the scene of a particular show helps you do that again that that's something that's very useful you know to to moving them toward the gospel toward the kingdom of God that's beautiful thank you for joining us we are running out of time as a quick quick conversation I wish we had a another path or another however saying it now yeah really is men our guest is Michael as hyzer his book is the world turned upside down finding the gospel in stranger things I hope it will facilitate some new and cool and exciting conversations with your friends both believers and non-believers hopefully maybe even gives you a new kind of lens to see pop culture through that the gospel kind of can exist in different kind of ways throughout a lot of different stories we will be back in just a few minutes to let you know who we were gonna have on next week it's kind of it interesting person I think you're gonna be interested in finding that out we'll be back soon thank you for joining us and we will talk to you on the other side [Music] [Music] you have been listening to C Brown etc and we're about to land this plane so we were talking about stranger things and the lessons that can be learned from it but I think the larger thing that I'm hearing is the power of story and power the those powers the story reminds us of things stories give us context Jesus understood the power of story with this parables Zack has several amazing series that he's taught on those you really should go to hkey live work and check those out there's a great quote I've seen it attributed to GK Chesterton or a Scottish writer Bruce Marshall the young man who rings the bell at the brothel is unconsciously looking for God and it doesn't take a lot of imagination and go yeah clearly he's looking for the right thing in the wrong way but I think it has even broader implications because I would say anybody who watches the movie in the and they they're like pump their fists when the flawed hero finds Redemption they're looking for God if you've got these characters who have been estranged and then they're finally reconciled and it's really moving you're looking for God if you have the final scene where trying or good finally triumphs over evil well you're looking for God even if you don't realize it in acts Paul was speaking to the council in Athens and he goes oh I noticed that you're very religious and I saw your shrines and your altars to the unknown God it's so interesting that he doesn't call them stupid and he doesn't act like those stories don't exist he acknowledges it and uses it to point it towards the real truth so I think that if we are smart we will take a lesson from that because if we miss people's stories then we miss people so Cathy next week tell us a story about who we have on the shoe the shoe next week we're gonna tackle the subject of forgiveness with a lady who really is pretty well equipped to talk about forgiveness and that's Ruth Graham the daughter of Billy and Ruth Graham and if you're not familiar with her story she's she's got a good one talk about the product child but anyway she's written a new book and it's titled forgiving my father for giving myself an invitation to the miracle of forgiveness I think it's gonna be a really good program really good program I love that you guys have a connection to Billy Graham that's I mean I would drop that and I would just drop that into any conversation possible relevant or not you're like that reminds me of what Billy Graham said oh no no no no no but I will be here good toast you can totally do it no this look this rodeo clown can can do this all that's wrong yeah I think we should say Matthew did a good job right I look forward to your positive yelp review thank you so much only we had a producer to bring up oh my goodness that's all the time we have babies thank you for joining us we'll see you next week I oh I forgot to write a catchphrase ah oh wait I don't have a catchphrase next time see you next time everybody thank you [Music] you

Channel: KeyLifeNetwork

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Keywords: Steve Brown, Grace, God, Key Life, keylife, sbe, Etcetera, steve brown etcetera, steve brown etc, KeyLife.org, Jesus, Author Steve Brown, Key Life Network, Michael Heiser, Dr. Michael Heiser, Author Michael Heiser, Gospel of Stranger Things, Stranger Things, Duffer Brothers, Matthew Porter, Director Matthew Porter, @mattheweporter, HeyPorter.com, The World Turned Upside Down: Finding The Gospel In Stranger Things., The Upside Down, Stranger Things Season 4, Netflix, Story, Power of Story

Id: -Ll2aiG3iAw

Length: 41min 13sec (2473 seconds)

Published: Mon Dec 09 2019