Meet the Leader - President Jerry Rawlings

you you so and welcome to another episode of meet the leader brought to you by the on Ghazi Institute I am your host Kemal kaki Fuqua on this program were extremely honored and privileged to have his Excellency Jerry Rawlings join us to share his views on leadership and some of the lessons he has learned along his leadership journey he accidentally welcome to the program thank you now you're a very storied and well-known head of states from Africa and you've done a lot for both Ghana and for the continent and we'll get to some of that later on but I want to start right from the beginning as you reflect on your leadership journey where did that start and how was some pretty young around the age of nine I think eight or nine as I sat in a compound one day and my auntie was whispering to her mother my grandmother that she would have to secure a party card before her husband would be paid her husband happened to be an English man who was building a lot of the estates in a new Township I mean that she had to secure a party card before she can be paid before they can be paid for the work they've done didn't make sense to me about the age plus the fact that she was whispering you only whisper when you're afraid of your environment correct and plus the few other things you know in the climate the atmosphere the young Pawnee us well not too long yeah we had no no no no this was after the age of 10 I think we're word won our independence I mean rumor was the leader then and I have to admit that as the years won by people became more more frightened of his government his party machinery you know I mean he then he no doubt meant well is what I mean for his race for Africa but I don't think his part of machinery or people around him became intoxicated and it ended up creating a lot of stress over the years I mean his overthrow came as no surprise to me at all even at around the age of 15 when I was in school ii was called boarding school one of the minister's children dropped a cake of soap brand-new as he hilda remove the peel the cover and it was a fairly clean bathroom come on communal bathroom he refused to pick up the soap yes you want to look for a new cake of the lux over whatever and all kinds of things you know you had situation were we will respect and admire our teachers when you end up with a situation was teachers that you admire are afraid of students because of who their parents are doesn't all go well for the political climate at all so it created a lot of animosity against government and if you on a kind of personal familiar nor was there anything in particular about your household or the culture that you were raised in that made you kind of sensitive to you know a sense of a justice and and that kind of responsibility and equality that clear seems to be coming through was there a particular that earlier a gun side you another example when I love school and join the militia Academy into flying the Air Force after about the three months of hard training we were all invited individually and interviewed and I remember there are these two white guys the question they were asking me was if I could see myself someday and join a drink with my colleagues fellow cadets I think I understood what they were saying but I pretended I didn't so the other day again and again the third time I said I didn't I know why you asking me this question because they find me snobbish i snub my colleagues yes I do and that's because where we live the courses the military quarters every room has been assigned what's call it a Batman like a manservant and I don't like the way they treat them my colleagues treat those man sevens and when I look at them it doesn't appear as if any of them grew up in a in a in homes where the add house helps or sevens anyway you know and come here and have this privilege and we treating people this way something yes so I don't like and that's why it's not them but the reason is that I grew up in a in in homes where there were sevens but the point is you have your responsibility you do your sweating you do you lay on bed except under 7:00 else his or her responsibilities so in effect you end up growing up respecting each other and appreciating and behaving like brothers and sisters you understand and in the process of growing up - I've worked with laborers during holiday vacations etc and I've grown up with people I did not grow up and allow anything to take me outside the orbit of reasoning you know the empathy that we must mentally have for one another so that's interesting you say this because of course you had a storied career with the military which will come to that you know the military is known for breeding leadership I mean it's a core part of how leadership or how military training progresses so in your case actually the leadership responsibility was framed outside that did you find it difficult to reconcile this with with the kind of military regiment or the two quite no no no we got along no I mean when I was at school also you know that boarding school I just talked about I joined the Cadet Corps you know and I'd always wanted you to fly anyway and I'd always wanted to join the air force you know so for me the military was next in nature really and it seems you were very popular in the in the military list amongst your peers from from looking from it from the outside in in 1979 you led an unsuccessful coup and you're actually arrested and sentenced to death and then a month later there was a successful coup and the military going to rescue you and then progress to move you to to lead the kind of transition government what was it that you think your peers saw in you as a leader that is part of the disinformation because people do not want to all the media or those who opposed to the concept of the fact that humanity has a right to revolt you will find it in the ethics of man I don't have to go into that book to prove my point but they must Nestle call it a coup all the time 15th May that the atmosphere was so charged it was pretty much like what I keep calling what's call it opening the gas in a kitchen and the place is filled up all you need is just to ignite imagine throwing something was it would blow up I mean nobody could have carried out the coup d'etat in those days because the command structure had so much lost what you call it respect you know from the bottom all the way up have legitimate led correct it would have been difficult for any officer to undertake cool that the atmosphere was just right for an explosion my concern was that if we didn't hurry up as young officers to attempt to rescue to arrest the situation ahead of of 79 their death extent of rage would not have reached that depth on that height but we waited too long and that's why the atmosphere not just the military then whole nation was calling for blood blood so you've got to understand that 15 May I was full of rage - yes and all I had to do what is to ignite it I didn't need a whole battalion 12th people is all I had and when a position to do so but at the last minute I decided no I couldn't because so many in this innocence would be killed yes obsessed their wives and children etc the extent of rage amongst the rank and file was too much so I decided no I wasn't going to ignite it anymore and I asked my my boys to go to have some rest because we were ready as midnight incidentally the night is a more secure and safe a time for people who want to do violence yes the daylight has a restraining effect naturally so I thought I'd ask them to get some rest and would start around 3 o'clock in the morning the knew I'd change my mind without letting them know that had change the plan was to arrest the ahmad squadron the armored vehicles and demand for a confrontation with Yaffe's with the generals you know that a chain must take place something has to happen so that would would use dialogues to make the change and of course I knew where I was the new change the new plan was kind of risky and that's what happened now the very thing I was trying to prevent this explosion through the action of incidentally something I said during the trial was that leave my men alone I'm prepared to take responsibility for all that's happened I think he just caught a wild fire like they couldn't believe that and also would want to sacrifice his life for them exit ride cetera so one thing led to another and I was some general actually signed for my execution you know on that Monday and of course they type it the weather gotten around and the very explosion I was trying to prevent in other words that was also not a coup d'etat it happened the spontaneous Lorraine you know does a fellow officer I don't even know who went around around 3 o'clock in the morning calling out like girl where are they etc and good to see people come her and shot himself and I think that is what ignited it you know accelerate it's a long story got into so I was released went to the broadcasting house made the announcement that I have I needed to do you know sort of inviting fellow officers to not to stand in the way of the ranks yeah cuz they're full of venom and when I say they're full of venom let me take you through one or two examples under their jumping regime a generals regime I cannot make situation I've become so bad that antibiotics baby milk was being sold in markets on tabletops yes and scooping correct so you really had that that's how bad it was that hoarding this Mikola market women would go into the shops the major shops and patches all the cloth everything etc baby milk name it even antibiotics would be was being sold on double jobs like you have dinner a market so you have a situation like that were so just not once not twice not three times would go pleading for reduction in the price there was also an escalation of pride and the country are grown to hate us hate the government you know and a poor soldier in uniform like I said three times goes to a market to ask for a reduction in the price of cloth for his family and what do the market women do they throw urine at him yeah urine at a soldier in uniform but anything I'm not saying correct taboo you know I mean that's the content that we had for the uniform in those days so at that moment you can understand how much he would hate that woman hate his general up there no he officer call and we were seen as officers they didn't see that you know there are officers and their officers generals and whatnot oh yeah they would have done as already so you know you've really been driven by a sense of fairness and justice but also a loyalty then to to the state as it were the state of gunner stabilizing and so on yeah receded from the military to a civilian rule and that was short-lived and so you were brought back in and managed to stabilize the country by establishing the Fourth Republic I wasn't brought back in oh I came back in okay mm-hmm when we handed over the first time to Lee man within after three months it was almost a sinful I think aged generals including two former heads of state had been executed and some of them were innocent people commanders but it was best to sacrifice the commanders then to go down the ladder of all the guilty people that there rank-and-file new about you know it was a very difficult thing at first we thought we could sacrifice only 210 days later the tension was building up we didn't let go they would start collecting meanwhile they had arrested offsets in all the units except for you know those within the run structure that I had named so extraction from that period was an expression of range but thankfully we managed to contain it within the military and we paid the price for it the national prize and then the handover comes very Swift you think all that anger and all that rage has dissipated of course not take some time it will take time exit wrong you know hexa drugs but to cut a long story short there are still a good store of it with a hope that in giving the power to this new administration the the road you know of integrity that we hadn't backed on the sense of justice fairness would be continued would be underlying principle but no the nonsense did not only start the state security machinery started arresting and persecuting soldiers in various units and started harassing me yeah they attempted to eliminate me on two occasions yes of course and they started giving back the courts that are given back the properties that had been confiscated ill acquired properties that I've been confiscated states that are given back happy so you going back to that situation or wrecked correct you know very disrespectful of human sensibility insensitivity correct correct chief so this time round don't forget the first time the ranks felt that a lot more people should have been executed and we wouldn't have it I wouldn't have it H was bad enough if if we don't moving again okay are they correct and they do is like we told you we told you and it's like they'll complete it so I had to take the lead again and I set my leadership from the beginning so that I would and I immediately converted all that anger into productive energy and that took a while and you eventually they take over as a civilian oh yeah that took quite a while but the best time was that friend first ten years of a revolution and I remember what's his name and the whole of West Africa was actually getting ready to burn many governments fell go look into it and Nigeria was on the edge of the precipice to fall and had and everybody or most countries wanted to have it away because up to that point in time most of us in Africa was a brand new nothing but corrupt governments one after the other I remember when the Western powers in the media started talking about what he call it terrorism terrorism etc I pointed out into the effaces that you're now talking about terrorism when governments in Africa were terrorizing us the citizenry I mean where were you some have still not let go of the machinery of terrorism it's like some of them still believe that's how to rule a people you know and along with it goes heavy corruption you know it's it's most unfortunate but let me get back to the point you were what were you asking so about this kind of the transition to a civilian government and and how whether that was I mean it seems it was second nature to you that if actually that was the right way to go yeah I what I was going to say actually was that the first ten years of that revolution when we didn't have the Constitution was our best time he brought the best out of our people and that's why I was saying I mean because it's a revoked expressing all yes yes yes a resident teachings I don't use it creatively yes a rejection of authoritarian rule and all the foolishness of the past so that the people actually owned took hold of what now belong to them in a kind of supposed to cheeky question was it is it easier in your explain his experience wasn't easier to rule in that period than it was later on when you now have this Constitution that you know you're trying to build institutions that are democratic and fair yes I understand you yes it is it was easier then easier then because of the spontaneity of the people I think are good-natured by nature if I'll put it that way so then today and I'll be very honest with you when we had to introduce multi-party and go you know Constitution the West has a way of saying we became democratic after 10 years in 92 92 we did not become democratic we introduced constitutional rule from that point but the democracy started from that point of revolt because the example then all right I mean they had never enjoyed so much freedom and creativity and a sense of purpose a sense of justice for so long it was beautiful but the introduction of that thing was like the old cup at the old blanket the old cover was coming back you know who work with this day they only feel disempowered correct etc so what was happening was I have to confess here that State Department of course the IMF and the World Bank don't forget that Western powers had tried for a long time to overthrow us and he just never worked that's how come they resorted to having Shagari throughout the million ghanians in order to save his regime because his regime came out of a military situation also like ours at the time that we man that's England regime came in after him tonight he also emerged this man you know we've had a revolt they haven't you're messing up so we come back so Nigerians just wanted it badly also to deal with that the history of corruption in the account Lee so that is what endangered Sagaris and they thought a way out would be to destroy the revolution in Ghana this is a regional problem and we've dealt with it and therefore it things at home kind of calm down so so they thought you know it would but the nature of the African as usual I mean everybody had a home everybody you don't we we just absorbed them and we just continued so it endangered his regime because nigera wanted to deal with corruption too this is finally I mean coos have attempted it they've become corrupt etc this is probably the first time that somebody has emerged with a solid watch uncle of integrity no ninja logic in a very corrupt situation I mean without a coup d'etat like the people finally got the chance to get the right person right leader and I'm hoping as I was saying yesterday that he would take the right team and give Nigeria the leadership that chin she wants she desires and now really dynamite things you know in a positive way but just to take your step back as you said about under the military period I mean it's counterintuitive to a lot of people that is when people enjoyed most of their freedom and I think in a lot of ways that says a lot if I can be frank about as you as a leader that ensures yes this is a military style and there's no Constitution but people have their freedoms and I want to kind of segue the bra a point about leadership in Africa there is a sense that leadership on the continent is personality driven still whereas in other parts of the world leadership particularly the executive has become an institution I mean is this a fair is this a fair kind of generalization about Africa and and about the rest of the world or do you think think again this is part of as you were saying this misinformation that I can use the gain status as a donor we we also have a way of contributing to that cult is what I mean but I think we as leaders or when we end up in that situation must recognize that people will now begin to treat us like semi guards and we we should be conscious of the duty-bound to prevent it we must create the kind of chemistry that would make people tell it to us as they should you're swimming fairly and family you know and respectfully but this is a at the very best then of course you have those who actually come with criminal intent it's a very harsh strong word but it was so much realistic that they actually go out to destroy institutions of integrity in order to survive and this is what happened after I left office you know but let me ask you I mean you you respected the two-term limit and in you left office in 2000 actually to it an opposition party as I understand it and you decided to respect that so you know thereby giving that kind of institutional digits Missy correct can you actually stop being a leaders is that something that's possible not necessarily as a head of state but you still lead you still have influence correct because that's something irregular right and I'm that's why I'm saying people are school people have the tendency of saying suggesting that I had all the power I could have stayed on you know and I tell them no no no couldn't have I would have been defied by the people the institutions do exist in some of most of our countries but the human factor you know lacks the confidence the intimidation from the machinery the posting away you know judges etc to outlandish places except Ryu in turn and everybody then cow-house to you know the central Poli gora T which is not good enough that is not part of our culture as Africans you know native tribal watch call it I mean we we do have respect for one another but that's the point I was also making that in inheriting the English language and I'm saying that you should have used that language those collection of words you know to express the culture of your integrity or the integrity of your culture but no we also allowed it you know to be contained and we use that the language as a weapon of intimidation in governance that's what can sentence you that's what does this exeter exeter exeter let me just aside one little example of something that happened one time when I came into office the very second time and so just let me speed in all over the place so just from my unit you know one time provoke something or the other and there was likely I mean it creates a tension and there could have been an attack the following day and I was thinking I mean what could I do to prevent this thing in a very genuine way I thought about it and realized the solution was right there so I called some of the senior warrant officers and said won't see your counterparts in the other unit and indicate to them you're coming to see them at five o'clock 5:30 the following morning that was all that was all tension began to dissipate because in our culture you know when something serious genuine spiritual has to be dealt with you call the children the parents call the children or whoever they are the elders wake up at five o'clock in the morning 5:30 sit and brains on the issue and resolve it and resolve it because it's in has a very genuine serious situation you understand so I'm saying by the following morning the tension has dissipated you mean enough culture correct and too often we put it outside and put it away lock it away and just continue this way and this what I call it superficial manner and this is why I'm saying that I appreciate I respect Nigerians a lot more in this respect they've not on your lady what's the name the MC she is smarter brilliantly I mean she is a these are the kind of people there are role models and she's perceptive and wealth of information in some parts in some polygon areas we bury people like that we we suppress it we don't allow them to shine to be role models and that's part of the problem we have those a lady who talked about Chinua Achebe she's very right I read Chinua Achebe as well that was at school and how impressed I was and I read the other one what's it called another one was written by along the same lines was written by a UK AMA a gun in a warehouse book had the title the beautiful ones are not yet born this very famous book as I grew up and I was seeing so much brilliance so much integrity you don't like all the people are those conference yesterday as I was beginning to notice people like that in my country in those trying corrupt times that's when I realized that no no no no no no no the beautiful ones are born there there is just that the polluted climate is not allowing them the opportunity to shine and to provide leadership that's it so I didn't feel intimidated by you know having to take over at all because the people to lead us and to provide whatever to help us are there yeah leaving office you knew that there were people there correct correct you know and yeah that kind of brilliance is excuse me it's created by this is brain power this is your self-esteem is in the ability the brainpower the intelligence etc it's not through the show of materialism you understand and and and and then there we should we should use them you know to provide the nursery leadership ok so I think a good leader must be able to recognize those with the leadership potentials and bring them up get them out and get them out you know provide the leadership and after leaving office in in Ghana you've served in multiple positions and and enrolls at the pan-african level through the pan-african Parliament with the AU and so on do you find that different is it do you have a kind of attention between balancing Ghanaian interest versus African interests are these the same to you is there a difference in the way you have to approach problems no no no no no no how I think human beings are human beings really we all have the same aspirations you know you just have to identify recognize you know what is peculiar you know to them in any one particular place or the other that's the word understanding you know understanding their situation is after work that needs to be done but if I may comment on one aspect of the Somalia situation the only complex thing I found about it was that one they were I had to withdraw I had to draw back okay because I couldn't stay there and I couldn't stay there with them in Somalia and I didn't think this was the kind of thing you would handle from outside based in Kenya Ethiopia I thought you needed to be there but the deployment of the number of tanks and soldiers you know to and show my security was too much there's not conducive you're correct they they needed to fight al-shabaab or whatever mmm brings on some some sense of order and not be around me constantly and the other side of it was you don't send me into a situation like that and don't give me executive authority to to give orders you know to two troops on the ground it's very her for you to implement and correct is what I mean and that's what end one side would be taking advantage of a situation like that you know you couldn't that get things done appropriately you know I thought it would be best for the commanders-in-chief themselves for the heads of state to actually deal with the political authorities on the ground and the military situation yes told are you 13:31 of the Scandinavian prime ministers was shot and killed as he left I don't know what there was ever a movie theater was going home and that's because anytime the the cloud you know of the apartheid situation was going to die down Palma would reignite it anytime he would die down he would reignite it and you know he paid the price for it I'm trying to say that term the world became engaged with Mandela with the collapse of the bipolar world changes that are happening globally were not left with two areas of some serious colors a justice apartheid South Africa and the old Palestinian case apartheid South Africa's free Mandela's out why are we still seeing the sin the sin of the Palestinian persecution failure to mobilize for that I'm saying that you know that kind of situation is affecting the psyche or your humanity and if we cannot deal with that kind of injustice it will continue to percolate down and spark little pockets of injustice in places yeah we need to restore the green house cover of political international political morality it will take the energy out of fanaticism because part of it is directly related to the manner in which these Palestinians are being treated it's unconscionable and the silence of Africa shocks me you know and that's why we're saying that you know let us not keep dreaming of peace the kind of peace that unique kind of peace and stability after all they're Muslims the unique art of peace and stability where we're asking for it wouldn't happen if we had not heard voicing even if nothing happens about it we ought to be heard voicing you know our rejection of that kind of situation but but if I can take you back to an earlier question just as a because it was the second part of it as I as a former head of state you're remarkably candid and very open and outspoken and this is quite unusual particularly for African former heads of state can you kind of glean us or tell us why that might be is there anything different about you or is it that the situation doesn't allow for this I don't know I mean this is the way of always being since I was a kid this is my freedom you know I used to say that I didn't go out to want to be a president or head of state it was my pursuit of justice that put me in the siege of the presidency you know so coming off it it's not as not changing in any way not when the circumstances I can see are still on just so you're that guys I can speak about I will those that I can do something about I will attempt to you know and then just in kind of it wrapping up the interviews were just wanting hear a little bit about your Jerry Rawlings the individual you know the husband the father how do you balance this with this persistent pursuit of justice and high office in how to put it very bluntly how do you relax and how do you unwind how do you you know how do you attend to those other things that people tend to overlook in leaders that you know you're a human being too it's difficult to relax you know in this kind of situation you know the beauty of file situation when I left office the economic and the social gradient the pyramid was very shallow you know the authority gradient but it's become very steep now guaca-- before the collapse of the bipolar world president knee area was passing through my country I think to refuel when I met him at the airport and as we were walking from the aircraft to the lounge he was asking me what are we going to do with the imminent collapse of the Eastern Bloc you know because their socialist policies you know served as a counterbalance of a sort to the capitalist one of my days I couldn't answer him because we really couldn't tell the way the world was going to be like and but I ventured a little suggestion that well the capitalist are Christians and they've been touting the values and the culture of democracy and that supposed to be a decor of the struggle their fight you know so maybe the world might turn out to be a better place the very Pope John Paul who contributed to the collapse of the Eastern Bloc have several years later indicted the economic practices of the world with the words the savagery in his pastoral letter the savagery of capitalism that should tell you what what became of the world after the collapse of the bipolar world yeah nepotism the the privatization of power both economic and political has been the order of the day so and further down several years later what did President Carter also say he indicted Mary he reproached America and said you've lost your moral stature and in a way this is why the world was so expectant his wife Mandela became such a powerful figure after him after the world America found what's his name Obama and he suddenly looked like a man of with polycomb morality and the world was so expectant of his leadership really because what had happened Elia was just too much incidentally in case you never saw this and I'm saying it as a reminder many years ago Dick Cheney who became Bush's junior Bush's our Vice President used to be the Minister for defense you know what he said on CNN that America's interests supersedes overrides issues of morality I saw it I said my god that may be the case but to mouth it this way and we'll teach our enemies to fear us and bla bla bla bla bla bla bla I felt very sad very sad but that has been the reality Obama did his bid to hold it in check with the practices of some of these multinational entities and corporations but the point is that it has assumed life of its own in the rest of the world and Africa with its weak situation vulnerable situation weak institutions has become the most vulnerable place you know and we get up and we yeah of course the media's doing its job portraying all kinds of little activities going on Africa's on the rice etc of course we can see all these buildings all these structures etc but I'm saying that it looks like we're being assimilated you know in the name of investment and these private entities you know we will continue to hold a short end of the stick for Crowe for some time can we unchain ourselves can we get out of that grip that old you know it'll take people like Khan carbon solid integrity and not materialistic if you see what I Bea that is something that we've always respected about your country Tanzania another leadership Oh president your error you've not allowed money the monetization of your democracy of your electoral process but I believe you're in danger of having them now like the rest of us and that's not healthy because you end up with a situation right or wrong becomes politicized as my daughter said a few weeks ago just the two kind of final questions you've mentioned Mandela knew Aaron Carter you know to a lot of us these are you know heroes and figures that we look up to as leaders were there any leaders that you did or do still kind of look up to who influenced you or was it more just you know you believe in something and you're gonna go and see what happens in something and I move on it but as a as a young boy my brother's was 10 years older than me so he went in the resettlement sighs they were with that same English guy I was talking about they were building with segment sites before the creation of the dam and so during the holidays I would go with him into various parts of the country and I mean that's where I saw another other living conditions apart from those of us what we're going through in the cities you know the poverties and that's what put me in direct contact with labor as people I mean where you're looking at somebody who's about 54 years old or 50 something years old and yet when you look at his card he's written 24 all of them 24 years 24 gentleman because they don't want to be sent home or being too old you know and I've done age of 13 14 15 you begin to think you know so this sort of took me around the country to see things for myself what kind of advice would you give to aspiring and future leaders on the country as a kind of wait-wait nd the interview if you have any thoughts to share on this when I joined the Air Force I was then with a communication squadron and this also took me around the country and landing on Arabs all over the country all over the place and it brought me into contact with the naked poverty people were going through the hardships the brown water people were drinking later when I came into office you know I said something that shocked our people a bit but I thought it was necessary because we needed to get what our crops basing water and clean water to people and I said you know there water we use to flush our urine in the toilets it's cleaner than what people are drinking in the rural areas this can't happen this cannot go on you know no electricity etc so sometimes we would take off from a little town and the rest of the place will be in complete darkness meanwhile I know there are towns you know villages all over it became too clear and yet that's where the wealth was coming from the cocoa etc and that the capsules our towns were nothing more than parasitic entities so I'm saying that these experiences was stimulating things in my head we're stimulating things in my head that this injustice is just not good enough where you're watching people aging ahead of the Atty there was a time I like I love water most weekends out go to the Riverside and stay there as a young officer sometimes yeah with my wife also and our first daughter just as a way of escaping from the stress and the pain in the towns in the city you know that period I was talking about that you're in time one day I would go diving for oysters with the villagers and we used yeah you just use your breath so that way he'd give the ice that's a chance to also multiply and grow but when we got to the other end of the bank I was how using some white guys boat and sort of towed one of them glaciers ok new across the river when we got to the place you know he spoke harshly to his to his wife so I said look could you you don't you don't talk to her that way your wife this way you know they'd be a little more respectful and then his aura well what was he saying that that's not my wife that's my mother you know alcohol and hardship to fend for his family had age this man so badly needle and thread I mean all his daughters who would come diving with us you know they only had just that one piece of cloth and that's what they'd have to hope he dries up in time for them to cover up in the night Jesus Christ man so here you are trying to avoid it you know these kind of scenes and I come to run into another one one day I was coming from his place and there were two people on a canoe also diving Foresters and a strapping healthy looking young man with his back to me had a rope around his waist and the woman across did not so I was saying you know how come to the woman's diving without a rope around her waist and and you have a rope around your waist when the lady across you know said because the young man the man had his back to me the lady said ah that's my son he's blind a blind guy you know had learned how to swim and put a rope around his neck many years later you know when I came back I went looking for them your woman had died years ago and the young man had died because he got caught up in one of the the the weeds one of them can be pretty tight got caught up in there but you don't run into blind people doing things like that that's a little risky you know but a blind man you know was I'd learned how to fend for himself to survive you know we should talk about the issue of blind man someday and I'll tell you how Stevie Wonder landed a plane without our systems not love the editor but we are unfortunately at the very end so just one final word just in terms of the future and aspiring leaders in Africa do you have any advice for them based on your experience in leadership I think so long as the vision that noble objective is there and you can identify some of the best in your country to constitute empty around you what then becomes important is to stay dedicated to your principal the maintenance of your integrity don't compromise on it if you can do that I think will go a long way thank you very much nothing with those words we'll end the interview so I just want to thank you again for participating in for your candidate to say to the audience thank you for joining us and for we'll hopefully see you again on another episode of meet the leader goodbye you

Channel: UONGOZI Institute

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Keywords: Meet the leader, Jerry Rawlings, UONGOZI Institute, Leadership (Quotation Subject)

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Length: 51min 41sec (3101 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 30 2015