Ready. Ready. Let's go. Hi it's totally
Tod's workshop and Tod Cutler here and today we're going to do one of those
burning questions people have been asking about for ages. A speed trial
between a proper longbow, we've got Joe Gibbs here, war bow archer and
war bow bowyer. He can shoot an extraordinary 200 pounds, today he's just
doing 160. I'm on a windlass crossbow, 860 pounds in draw weight and we'll just
have a look at the difference in speed between shooting. We will start our time
trial as if with two bodies of archers ready to start shooting each other, so I
will span my bow and have that ready. Doesn't take Joe long to get ready. And
here we go Ready? Ready. That's good Yeah well there's a thing eh? Lets go and fetch them. And you got another one straight in the centre. Quite clearly the longbow,
Joes' longbow out shot me massively so I didn't even manage to get a second
bolt off. So the obvious thing is on the surface the crossbow is a completely
useless weapon compared to the longbow. But a windless crossbow similar to this
either this or a sinew prod or a yew prod. They were used for hundreds of
years, at least 200 years, so what's going on? I mean what were your observations
of that Joe? Took you a obviously quite a while to to span it, you know
after a bit of training that you know, I could do it quite happily whereas the
longbow takes a fair few years to build up the strength and technique and just
to be accurate with a longbow takes a long time. You were accurate -
depressingly so. I think that's very true, I mean I haven't even
bothered drawing your bow, I haven't even picked it up, I mean theres no point whereas I have given you the
windlass bow to show you and you can shoot it quite confidently which is very
that's very interesting in its own right. Because I mean you know sort of the
bands of crossbow archers were very well paid. I think better paid than longbow archers, so it's there's a big
mystery there because if it's so easy to use really what's going on? I mean one of
the things is your bow is essentially a cheap item and that
is essentially an expensive item; it's the same in industry now, if you've got
expensive equipment you charge a lot for the time even if the job is very easy. I
suppose those guys were pretty proficient soldiers as well you know
they're well kitted out in armor as well. I think what's very frustrating for
me with this that you don't have, you can just pick it up and shoot it, it just utterly painless in that sense, whereas I have to be really careful to get ready for
the next shot. Because I have to unwind my windlass fully. you have to let it
down carefully on the ground so it doesn't tangle up for the next shot and
and still you get the ropes around the trigger sometimes. I shoot it reasonably regularly but not not again and again you know, I'm not
drilling for it. I suppose that they would have done that and they had people
spanning them for them didn't they? Yes that's a very good point.
You would have got twice the amount of bolts off. Yes I could, so you hand the
windlass to somebody and while you're shooting, they're getting it ready
for the next, so yeah that was often done behind a pavaise, mobile shield. But if
I double my shots, you're still twice as fast. I didn't even get
two off and I was ready to go on the first one. So yeah that is interesting but I
suppose it comes down to the social structure of England as well doesn't it?
Because every every guy had to shoot a bow and so every
every guy can shoot, maybe not like you can shoot, but they can shoot. Shoot a
decent bow. And that wasn't possible on the continent to
field those armies, you need to have specialist troops for that and they've
the best you've got is a crossbow because you can't field 2000 longbowmen, then it's a
crossbow you use. So me tell me about the training, I mean how long? how hard?
how much? So basically I've been shooting heavy type bows for 16/17
years, so I started when I was quite young about sort of 14/15. I started.
Started on the heavier bows? Obviously not on first one, but
quickly into it? 70 pounds plus and then and slowly worked up from
there made my own bows so it wasn't too expensive for me to work up,
could make my own kit so it's a cheap way of doing it and I shoot two three
times a week. So maybe 100 arrows a week.
And how often do you get the two hundred out? Maybe only sort of every two weeks
or something just otherwise I don't want to knacker (damage) myself.
You need a bit of time for your body to recover because you know, it's a
serious weight. I didn't shoot two but I loaded two, I
wouldn't want to do that for half an hour, I mean I couldn't do that for half an hour. What I was doing there. Now I know that they're going to be
fitter and that's what they are geared up for, but as you stand now, with 160
pound bow, shooting let's just say four or five shafts in a minute, how
long do you think you can keep that up? Probably not that long I could get the
sort of two sheaves off as for shooting after that I think I'd probably be bit
knackered for constant shooting. If I had you know it's just a bit of a break you
know just took my time about it maybe a few more. But after the two sheaves, I'll
probably be ready to chuck my bow down and fight anyway
I mean there's kind of with battles like Agincourt or Crecy or
whatever you know that the engagement was several hours long,
and so you've got some sort of vision of the archers just for several hours just
pumping them out. But just not possible no? No I don't think I want to spray
all my arrows out and one go anyway. I probably take my time about it and
choose my shots to be honest. It takes a lot of control so it's not just
pulling the action of pulling a bow, it's when you release. Because your body's
under a hell of a lot of compression and when you let go that
string your body wants to release it, so you have to control that bow arm from
stop it doing this or this. So do you concentrate on your technique?
It just comes naturally; so your body does what it has
to do to pull the bow and once you've been doing it for so long you don't have
to concentrate on pulling the bow or anything it's all natural. Bang. Job done. No sort of aiming, no gap aiming?
No it's seamless, all instinctive, I'm just looking at the target. Your arm
those where it's got a go. That's shooting three times a week
isn't it? Yeah exactly In medieval England it was a requirement
from being quite small boy, for every man in the land to learn how to shoot a bow.
So if you take let's say a 14 year old lad and you try to work him up to the war bows, how often do you have to shoot and how long would it take to sort
of do the thing safely because obviously can injure yourself by over doing
it. I would say to get him up to a hundred pounds would probably take, probably a year because you know if he's
not done much before it will take a quite a while from everything to
start build and stuff. But 100 pounds should be pretty achievable;
achievable for every one. 100 pounds. You should be able to shoot 100 pounds no
problem and then the heavier you get, you just
got to take that time really. I would say within five years you should be able
to be shooting a decent weight 150 pounds. So it's not necessarily
the the strength that makes you a good archer it's being able to hit stuff, you
know if you can shoot 150 pound bow but you spray your arrows everywhere
what's the point? you might as well shoot 100 pound bow
and shoot and hit what you're shooting at. But the other thing that I found
very interesting was, as I said before, I've been shooting for a long time,
but not heavy bows and I've been very interested in war bows and I thought
well you know, I want to learn how to shoot. There was a lady came into my shop
one day carrying a bow and it was quite obviously a significant bow and it
turned out to be 80 pounds, but she was like 5 foot 2 you know, small lady. And I
asked her how she could draw that because I thought no way I can pull
that and she showed me how to do it. Showed me sort of a different technique
to the the modern target archery that I'd been shooting before. That I
found enormously interesting, so we then went down the range and I shot it and I
shot it by using a different technique and I shot it relatively comfortably and
that was an absolute eye-opener for me. That the technique is different. It's a
completely different technique so you you want to be using a lot of your back
muscles, so it's not you're not just pulling it with your arms. You're not
no you're not going to do it with just your arms. So you need to engage all
your back muscles in it and as much as you can just to get that bow back really.
Its technique and strength. A combination. Yeah you need the combination to be able
to do it. So in the last ten years the people who shoot heavy bows
the average has gone up. So ten years ago you know if someone said
I'm shooting 100 pounds everyone would go 'whoa 100 pounds' but now it's the average
has gone up to 125 130 pounds is the norm. So I feel in another 10 years
it would be higher but you know medieval times it had been going on for
hundreds of years. Every village like this one, has got a butts
you know there's always somewhere you can go and shoot, hang out with your mates. Exactly. So when you're out shooting with your mates, you go 'have a go with my bow' and such and such, have a go with your one see if I can pull it. Thats it, I suppose when you've
got a whole culture built on the bow you know, men like to boast, I don't
suppose that's ever changed, and you are gonna be having a go and trying
to get yourself bigger and better than bloke next door. Exactly so you know
people always ask me if they can have a go at my bow, you know some people pull
it, you know I'm not saying I'm the only one out there that does it, because I'm not.
There are guys out there, that can shoot 160 pound bows as well, not many but there's a few. You know and I've helped them along their way, help them train up
and such. So do you do any training, any weight training,
with a bow in mind, that doesn't involve a bow? I don't have a physical job so I
do a small amount of weights just at home just to keep in shape, but there's
nothing in a gym that represents a bow. You can't you cannot theres nothing will
help you pull a bow. If you want to shoot a bow, shoot a bow, that's it, full stop.
There's no point going down the gym thinking if I can benchpress you know
such and such, I will be able to. No. Rubbish, if you want to shoot a bow get out there and
shoot a bow. yeah that's it. The bow is your gym. Exactly, you
don't need anything else. I think there were two very notable things actually
about that trial that we've just done, speed trial, was one of course is that
you're out shooting me shot-for-shot quite clearly, many times over. The
other thing that is notable, is that your arrows are going through the boss
and sticking out the other side. The bolts that I was shooting sometimes they
come out the back sometimes they don't. So just on that very easy thing there
you can say that your bow is more powerful than mine. Mine has got
this fantastic headline number of 860 pounds
yours is a rubbish 160 pounds you know your 700 pounds off. So
what's going on? And that's you know, it's just a really simple thing is that when
you draw your bow you're accelerating the arrow over what 25 26 inches. I've got
roughly a six inch brace height and then it's drawn back to 30. So
about 24 inches. So you're getting your energy into the arrow pushing it
forward 24 inches. I'm pushing it for six inches, six and a half inches, so a
quarter of what you've got. So I've got a massive headline number, but the
efficiency of this is absolutely appalling, but that's what's curious
because it is true now, and it's true back then. If the efficiency is so bad
and actually this is delivering less power than yours is, you know, why are
they using it? I think there are advantages because one thing to remember
is this style of windlass bow it's called an English windlass so the
English were not just about long bows. You know they use crossbows as well and
these are great for sieges. If you're up on the battlements there, or if I'm on
battlements and you want to shoot me, you have to step out of your cover, you have
to.... Expose a lot of you. You have to draw because you can't step out drawn.
And that takes time where you've got a few guys on the castle having a pop back
at you. Whereas I can be from a hide shooting through a hole that big. It's
good for that sort of sniping type thing, that that long-term warfare where the
rate of shooting is not quite so important. So that's where they're very
useful in sieges and you see them quite a lot in naval warfare as well. Crossbows with handy for that I think probably again because if you
imagine with all the rigging and the low decks and everything else, a long bow
is a difficult thing to use. It can be a clumsy weapon in a confined
space you keep hitting the knocks and tips and
every one thing, with a crossbow it's a lot easier. I mean the thing is
as well, I don't if you're the same as me, but when I shoot a longbow, even if I've
got a couple of twigs or something above my head, your mind is not on what
you're shooting, you're sort of like you're halfway up there trying to... and it
must be hell if you got rigging and stuff like that around you. Yes almost
impossible I'd say if I come up to draw and even just the small
this twig touches the top of the limb you can feel it it, puts you off, if you
loose it sounds stupid, but if you loose and your limb hits the smallest
twig, it upsets the shot. You don't want it you don't want
anything near you. And on the surface they are far
outclassed by the long bow, I mean you can't deny that, but they are for
different purposes really. They're either because you can't field
an army full of long bows because you haven't got the guys to do it or
otherwise this style of warfare be it naval or siege actually can give the
crossbow an advantage even though it can't do the rate of shooting. Because
again one of the comments I get often is "oh that's really slow that's really
useless they'd never have used that" and it's like "look in the pictures they did
all this time for hundreds of years" so it was a very effective weapon, but if it
was you and me in a field 100 yards apart, I know where I put my money. So would I! Thanks.
Joe and I also thought it'd be interesting to have a look at the
accuracy of the two weapons. What I would say, Joe shoots three times a week and is
a world-class archer. I shoot once twice a month a few shots, so I'm not, but let's
just have a look. As a relatively competent crossbowman, against a very
excellent longbowman, what we can both do at 25 meters. Now as you can see here this is my group
right of centre, Joe's group left of centre, but actually in terms of group
size they're fairly comparable and on the basis that Joe shoots two to three
times a week and I shoot off a couple of bolts every few weeks, really it just
shows that a crossbow is an easier weapon to aim and so if you're
experienced in it you're quite clearly gonna get better grouping than a longbow
guy. I must say I was a bit worried you were going to completely blow me out of the water, so i'm
quite thankful that you didn't and as it came out, the two groupings were, we both
shot little off, but the two groupings were about the same size. Yeah not far off
well the crossbow is obviously you can you can pick one up and train to use
it quite quickly. Obviously it's got less variables than the longbow you know a
longbow is, you've got this arm, this arm, and your loose. Length of draw. Thats why it takes so many years to to be able to shoot accurately.
It was a nice thing to see how the two compared and I think it's clear that the
crossbow is inherently a more accurate weapon, because of the lower number of
variables and a comparison that is often made in the comments that I get, is that
the crossbow is the sniper rifle of medieval times. Actually I think
there's probably some truth in that, because you can lay in wait for your
target. Yeah. And then when you do shoot, you're inherently pretty accurate
and so there's a good chance of you hitting the target. So I think it's actually a
fairly valid comparison, certainly for siege warfare, that it is a bit like the
sniper rifle. Yeah I would say so. Joe thank you once again it's been great
having you here. Thank you I enjoyed it it was good.
And hopefully we'll go again. Yeah definitely.
It is a bit scary to use these heavy-draw crossbows with steel prods.
Which crossbows were mostly used in medieval? THe ones with steel, composite or wooden prods?
I imagine you can also build powerful crossbows with yew prods!?