Maurizio Viroli

because for me Machiavelli is not just a subject of scholarly investigation I would say that I it's almost a friend I've been studying Machiavelli for now thirty thirty two years when I am in Italy I spend much time as much time as I can in Florence to work in the biblioteca Nacional because most of Machiavelli's papers are there but every morning before I reach the biblioteca Nacional I stop by Santa Croce where material is buried I entered in the church and I got to pay him a visit how are you have you been sleeping well how's life going and the response then rejuvenated I reached the bibliothèque and I begin to read his text tonight I would like to briefly present my argument my thesis the result of some years of investigation about the meaning the meaning of Machiavelli's Prince when I say meaning I intend what Machiavelli intended to write what Machiavelli wanted to say in the prince the reason the primary reason for him to write the prince the way he wrote so let me be clarified I'm not talking about what the Prince might mean for us we can find in that text many meanings each of us can find different meanings what I wanted to try to convey and share with you waiting for your criticisms and remarks is what Macaulay really wanted to say in that book and my view is that niccolò machiavelli composed the prints 15:13 not to get a job from the Medici as it has been said thousands of times not to get a job from the Medici not to assert that politics is autonomous from ethics yet another commonplace about Machiavelli and not even to found or establish or inaugurate the modern science of politics this too is an idea that you find in every every handbook or history of political thought niccolò machiavelli composed the prints to design invoke educate a possible Redeemer of Italy a great political and military leader capable of creating with God's help don't faint don't call a lawyer don't call an ambulance I am I know what I'd say with God's help is in the text someone who with God's help could redeem Italy from the barbarians to put it differently what I am asserting is that the meaning of the prince is in the last chapter whose title is exhortation to liberate Italy from the barbarians so if we want to understand the prince we should read the last chapter first generation now we explain why an oration on very demon that's what the prince is that is what Machiavelli wanted the Prince to be you know the let me clarify the argument and offer if possible some textual basis for it I'm sure you know the exhortation the last chapter is the chapter in which Machiavelli compares the conditions of Italy to the conditions of the people of Israel to the Jews in Egypt underwear in Egyptian bondage he also compares the condition of Italy to that of the Athenians before they were unified by the sails and to the condition of the persons under the meats yoke before they were emancipated by Silas Machiavelli writes Italy at the time and now reading three lines in Italian just to give you the flavor of Michaelis ways of writing the white and then translated l'Italia serie to chase senator mini presenting a four-step you see avec le abre you serve a caper see you despair skeleton AZ since a cup of st. our dinner but to toss Polly on a larger course a racy super titania sort dear in Italy was more enslaved and Hebrews more survived and the Persians were scattered and the Athenians without a leader without order beat and despoiled ripped apart overrun having suffered every sort of ruin doesn't sound exactly the same then Machiavelli speaks of Italy has praying God that Prague aceveda Komal Ella Prague early Italy praise God by the way I am NOT a believer I'm not a Christian I am a secular person but I mean historian so I have the duty to try to extract from the text what Michael was saying he speaks of God I have to say he speaks of God and by God he means the God of the Bible as you will see in a moment she prays someone to redeem her Prague a deal Amanda qualcuno Taylor oedema van Machiavelli says that if the a great political leader will emerge Italy will follow him then he stresses that if mikkel here ends the exhortation speaking as if he were a prophet in fact he writes that although the great Redeemer is like Moses Cyrus and his heirs were rare and marvelous men he writes they were nevertheless man and each of them had poor opportunities than our offer now and there you deal Redeemer you will have God as a friend God is a friend if you commit yourself to the achievement of emancipating Italy a narration of the Redeemer you see how strong is this idea of the redemption it in the last chapter do I have some evidences to claim that not that Machiavelli composed the exhortation everybody can read it but that Michael composed of a prince having in view the excitation let me make three consideration the first let's look at Machiavelli's entire corpus the theme of political Redemption from tyranny from corruption from foreign domination is present from the first from the earliest works until the last one he composite discourses on Livy in order to teach to educate future generations of Italians to emancipate themselves from moral courage he who composed the the war Paris in 1521 to try to inspire the resurrection of ancient Italian military orders meaning the Romans and he even composed an essay in 1520 discourse on the reform of the constitution of Florence in which Machiavelli presents a eulogy words of great praise for those men who have been able to reform republics using the laws he said this kind of men are second only to the gods in terms of excellence and moral virtue but there is more than that not only the books in all his life Machiavelli tried to want to believe the possibility of the Redeemer in March on March 15 15 26 it is to say a year last year of his life he dieded 1520 self he believed that Giovanni della bandanaira the son of Catarina's parson might have been very demure with very beautiful letter to which Athena say he is he could be few months later in May he writes again which are Dini saying that there are there is a gain in 1526 the opportunity to liberate Italy from the barbarians that is to say we are here a man who focused all his works on the idea of the redemption of Italy redemption from corruption Redemption from tyranny we have a man who has dedicated his life to this task well it seems to be reasonable to assert that he has composed the prince precisely to shape to design the myth of a political Redeemer of it second argument in favor what is the prince about an audience is about politics no it's not it's not it's about grand politics miquellee writes it explicitly I'm going to write about Yamin e8 chilling TC me I'm going to write about grandest sim isn't the greatest man who are this most excellent men for Machiavelli I know the answer Caesar Borgia that's false the real heroes are Cyrus Romulus T sales and above all Moses these are the great emotion yet children t see me examples to be imitated the second piece of evidence that I'd like to offer you is that mark heavenly or read in chapter 6 indicates the theme of chapter 26 that is to say he directs the lead the reader to the idea of the Redeemer he speaks again of Romulus Moses saira Santa's elves who had the opportunity to show their virtue because their countries were in a situation of traumatic sufferance they had the opportunity and they were capable seizing the opportunity showing their extraordinary virtue the third indication the third suggestion third argument that I would like to offer to sustain that Machiavelli's composed the prince having in mind the finalists rotation is the structure of the text the style of the text what kind of text is my careless prints we have to us mcGarry's prince has been written not as a philosophical text and not even as a piece or an essay of political sign I'm sorry about my colleagues they are wrong never wrote as a political scientist if they want to find an ancestor or a saint protect we should look elsewhere mercury le composed the prints from the first page until the last one following the rules of the ARS rhetoric that is to say rhetoric rhetoric is discipline that teaches you how to speak and write with persuasive power in order not just to convince someone that what you're saying is right or useful or possible but in order to move someone to act Machiavelli uses metaphors Machiavelli uses images Machiavelli uses examples the entire structure of the book is follows the structure of the oration begins with an introduction then there is a division of the subject and there are arguments for arguments against there is a summary and there is an exhortation generation that's what Michaelis Prince is now you're going to say professor what does that have to do with your idea it had something to do and is this rule number one of eloquence in case you are interested in going into politics remember it when you make a political speech you must be sure you say the most important thing for you at the end because that's exactly what they remember what do we find at the end of Machiavelli's Prince exhortation to liberate Italy in which materially touches all the passions that you need to touch in such a context in order to in order to be able to move them to act there is only there are many objections that can be raised against my thesis I only mentioned the most lethal one well really devastating critique is that Machiavelli composed the exhortation after he had composed the bulk of the prince namely some scholars say yes completely Prince we know the bulk main purpose by December 1513 we are getting close to the real and really some say he has written it in 1515 he has written the excitation 1516 he has written the exhortation 1518 our various opportunities how can I claim that in fact Micheli composed the exhortation along with the rest of the book I have many theological textual evidences but just me to mention one in Mohali says that you made it she you have the chance to be the Redeemers of Italy your family which is now Prince K then the quali or a principle he means that the Medici are the princes of Flores and we have a Pope Leo 10 is Giovanni de Medici now in Italian and I see that in other many talents here the adverb aura means now Macaulay could not possibly say that you are now Prince of the of the church in 1515 16 or 18 because Giovanni de Medici was elected Pope in March 1530 so if he says aura he refers to an event that was close in time but I'm going to end my to long presentation in my opinion the real evidence that material cannot possibly have composed the exhortation after 15 the beginning the early months of 1514 to say or we can say he's his life see we scholars we tend to focus on concepts language ideas arguments we have to remember that books are written by human beings believe it or not and they have lives even passions beliefs now let's consider who was niccolò machiavelli between 5th 13 and 15 18 well there is a corresponding citation we can get back to those it's very clear Machiavelli lost his post as Secretary of the Republic in 1512 he was in prison in February 1513 released March 11 around 1513 when Giovanni de Medici was elected Pope now until December 15 13 we see a man was deeply wounded he signs lettuce quondam secretary I am the former secretary meaning he writes what he is no long and not who is but he is a man who tries to fight back to resurrect to be again himself after 1514 he is a different man there is a marvelous letter of August 3rd 1514 in which Machiavelli says I no longer delight no middle ectopy late Julian T Cocozza to read ancient history to reflect on the works of the great men of antiquity all I care about is love I am in love and I thank for that Venus sense and ciphers no longer delights me but the same man six months earlier in December Tritton that for him to think and read and write about grand politics had the power resurrecting him of making him feel himself no a per cuatro horas de menthe econia van de menthe eco only power no miss biggity Shalimar he was not even afraid of death when he was reading and writing about grand politics in 1514 it tells you that he is no longer interested in all that a man in that position that could not have written a text full of hope strength moral energy like the exhortation there is much more than that one last remark how does Machiavelli's Prince end with some lines taken from Patrick we're to control for aprender alarming LTL combat the core topper came in in tally Chiappetta co-anchor more virtue again fury will pick up on and the fight she'll be short because Italian Baylor has not yet dead why you end an essay on the prince with the verses of a poet because Mikey really believed in the prophetic power of poet poets arise have sometimes divine and prophetic power that gives us something to think about about the meaning of that text text ends with words of better because not because it's thought that these words by Pedro were particularly elegant no because it's not paid reports the prophetic power what is then the conclusion there are many conclusions but allow me to mention just on why of all the books similar to the Prince only the prince is survived and in good health I think for this reason because Machiavelli's Prince is about political Redemption as I said political redemptions are rare events in the lives of people you can count them in one hand but as aspirations or hopes they hope to see grand politics they hope to see moral and political regeneration is profoundly and whites profoundly widespread aspiration in the minds of people's over the center and Michaelis text response to that and there is even more I think that readers over the center's I have some evidences that perceived that one Machiavelli was writing about the redemption of Italy was trying to redeem himself I think this is the reason why mikelis prince is still so power the day when no one will read mikelis prince with me I think you mean that we have lost even the hope to see grant politics it won't be a happy day thank you for your patience professor of it all is really a pleasure to have you here at the IDB and thank you for these great words of introduction and opening this great reflection on my Kevin let me start this dialogue and or this interview with with one image you have here in the screen here in the back you see Nicolo Machiavelli in your in your first biography or in your biography Nicolo smile you say something very interesting you say you're right that I have always been fascinated by Machiavelli by his political thinking and writing but especially by the way in which he laughed about life and other people was laughing about what you can laugh about in human weaknesses the weaknesses that are not that dramatic the weakness right being rotten the weakness of falling in love if it is weakness jealousy that's why my dear Libra composed a beautiful comedy Mondragon and that's why he was a good comic writer he was laughing about himself about his own passions he wrote composed another comedy Grisha in which the main character his name is Niko Marco and the comedy is about an old man who falls in love with a much younger very attractive woman tragic circumstance and of course he was portraying on the on the stage he was putting on theater II his own condition because at the time everyone knew that he was in love with a younger woman but Machiavelli also he was laughing about what you can laugh about let's say excusable human weaknesses but he was extremely serious terrifyingly series about serious and grave matters like liberty the dignity of your country the rule of law they end about principles that's Machiavelli capable of being light transgressing humor fool playful when it was the time to be so extremely serious when the matters where required gravity and principles that's why I like because normally what you have many cases you have that principal people that do not have irony and the people who love it tend to laugh about everything including including things you should not laugh about allow me to conclude that we tenants I'm an American citizen but I was born in Wheaton's one of our vices that we tend to laugh about everything no like even about things you should be extremely serious about Mike I really was both serious on what this was a time to be serious playful was the type of being prey he was his nickname in in Florence was makya ill machia he was the center of the brigade humor for funny when it was the time to be humor for fun thank you so much so let me go by a little bit back integer because we know about the greatness of here we see the great Florence and Mike Avila was born in a family his father but not on Machiavelli his mother marinelli nurtured some values of him he had access to library he had access to the goods that shaped his character his virtues what can you tell us about the education and and his ascent as this individual that has so much knowledge and and profound a desire to shape society that's a very good question we know very little about money economically butene for before 1498 when he was appointed second Chancellor of the Republic of Florence in charge of Foreign Affairs more or less what do we know about the khalaby before between 1469 and 1498 we know that what he studied Latin grammar rhetoric we even know the books on rhetoric that his father owned history maybe I did not know Greek they couldn't afford the preceptor and one other important element that we know of [Music] Machiavelli is that he copied transcribed with his own hands Lucretia's de rerum Natura and you know what what kind of poet Lucretia's was Lucretia's portrayed a very disconsolate vision of humankind certainly Machiavelli remained deeply influenced by the idea that we human beings we are extremely fragile when we are born we are naked and we cry solo be warm in each angle we are the only he believed creatures that cry when they come to life and moreover Machiavelli stresses writing about nutritious we are extremely cruel the cruelty that human beings are capable of are as you know undescribable yet Machiavelli believe that there are also human beings who can be of great magnanimity of soul human beings who aim at great things in life human beings who are capable of resembling God not being like God resembling through their own virtue their own commitment to great ideals so that's what you get from Machiavelli earlier years the earliest years of his life there is also we have also some documents that indicate that he was close to Giuliano de Medici but I think that when he became secretary oh he detached himself from the Medici circles this is speculation let's look at the facts after the 1498 mercurial he was the secretary of the republic and he became totally dedicated to the service of his Republic so I think that Machiavelli after 1498 changed remarkably in comparison to what he was before 1498 thank you professor if we analyze Machiavelli as you suggest we must also look at the times that he experienced in his in his youth so here are the marriages he was he was born during ill magnificus time and he grew up experiencing the Patsy conspiration as you will know him in nikolas's mild but my question is what's he inspired by Lawrenceville Magnifico did he he seen him values or elements of greatness that are present in his works you said the right word greatness as you know in between my 1521 and 1525 my girly composed a part of the Florentine histories and in the Florentine history story Fiorentina Machiavelli wrote long eulogy he wrote words of praise for Lorenzo the Magnificent recognized Lawrence's greatness but if you carefully read Machiavelli's pages on the Medici including Lawrence you noticed something very interesting you notice that Machiavelli dedicates a remarkable space to the opinions of the enemies of the Medici on the Medici he gives voice to the opponents of the Medici and what exactly Machiavelli was allowing the enemies of the Medici to say notice that this is a streaming interesting situation because Machiavelli composed the Florentine histories under the under the guidance Commission the world was commissioned by Clemens the seventh Clemens the seven was Giulia de Medici and yet in the Amanjit insert in the text in the text clear voices of severe reprobation of the Medicis policy which policy Machiavelli sharply criticized and he criticized the same policy also in the prince that's why the prince is not written for the medicine report Nicola politically favoring the policy of favours what materials they need privet what could what what did he mean even this that the Medici were able to attain their power in Florence by distributing favors to friends through money connections patronage the mechanism was very simple the Medici knew that someone needed money to establish some business here is the money someone needed money somebody else needed money to marry a daughter the dowry the time here is the money you want to be elected to the Great Council I help you do you have problems with the magistrate with justice I can take care of that that was the Medici system the system of patronage through which many Florentines became loyal to the Medici therefore the Medici were in the position of asking for support in this way they became particularly Cosimo between 14:34 1464 is a long time 30 years the de facto rulers of Florence but Machiavelli did not admire at all this style of political action he stresses that if you followed that type of style of government all you can build is a mediocre weak Republic there is no true greatness in distributing favors in sustaining corruption that's the major critique that Machiavelli developed about Lorenzo all the managers in the why is that particularly relevant for the Prince because if you write a book to please the Medici mercury-news this very well you have to write ideas that the Medici will love to read not severe criticisms of their policy as Machiavelli as Machiavelli did to put it shortly in mechanic's Micheli compose the prince he wanted to try to help to educate or to inspire a new Moses not another causing now if we analyze the prince and think of all these historic and and life context that that impacted on Machiavelli there are two figures that I would like to to ask you about one is vamos a poner Dada Machiavelli listened to his sermons and he saw the emergence of the Republic after the fall of the Banshees and then the other figure is is a piano the soldering gonfaloniere Oh superior he was sort of a mentor to Machiavelli he trusted him he gave him the opportunity to become truthful secretary how these two figures are reflected in the prince so with a question that comes to my mind well that's that's a very good question in Chapter six Machiavelli writes down a line that has become face totally profited disarmed a Tyrian or not totally prophetic hurmati means all unarmored profits failed all armed profits triumph the example of the unarmored profit was Savonarola Savonarola's you know between 1492 and 1494 persuaded with his eloquence with his prophetic language the Florentines to establish the republican government in 1494 but in 1498 the republic under the pressure of the vatican allowed Savonarola to be tried and strangled and burned in Piazza Signoria summer if fate he was ultimately defeated and the idea that many commentators have stresses that Machiavelli was disdainful was condescending about $7 I don't think so in this course is book 1 this course is a lily book 1 chapter 12 miquellee writes of such a mandate and to warm seed la perla record is better such a man you must speak respectfully of course my Savonarola was unharmed but McHenry respected prophecy and when he make heavenly opposes the armed prophet is to say the political leader who is capable inspiring with the power of words but also is able to keep human beings the followers the people persuaded with the power of arms of the sword he doesn't mean that the leader the Redeemer should not be a prophet because are you generally how do you generate devotion and loyalty and faith if you are not capable of speaking with persuasive and prophetic power so what I'm saying is that for Machiavelli Savonarola was lacking because was an armed but he was important because was a prophet so Mikey really wanted the leader who was prophetic like Savonarola but armed with armies with the power of the sword and of Siderius Audrina was more than was the patron of Machiavelli was working so the renewal would be the equivalent of President Obama in Florence and Machiavelli something less than a secretary of state in Machiavelli has very harsh words very harsh words well so deadening what was the mercurial imputing to subtly imputed so the reaming who was under many respects remarkable political leader very honest great integrity complete devotion to the Republic very distant from policies of from corrupt of corruption imputed so Dharini not to have to have been enabled to use extraordinary means to defend the Republic when the Republic was attacked in 1512 and ultimately defeated there is a there are some terrifying words that Machiavelli wrote about so Dharini not the camera appears so daleney see present toward inferno a blue torus pose a cause of I qui anima shock when in limbo Colombini when so therein he died he went to help and Pluto received him say what do you want here that's not your place go to the limbo with the children what that's why why because Mike you really believe that if you are a great political leader and the situation compels you to use extraordinary means for instance cruelty for instance not keeping your word you have to have the force of doing it if this is necessary to save the labors of your country you have to be able to do it now that you mentioned that I have this o is this this intriguing question and also raising in nikolas's math you say that is it remains a mystery why Machiavelli was appointed at age 28 as second secretary chancery somebody must have seen something special on him I don't you research it remains a mystery to you or you have clarified some elements in recent research still it's a mystery because Machiavelli did not belong to the political elite of Florence he was not a notary he was not a humanist he had published nothing why was he called to such a positional responsibility there are two hypotheses the first because he was an opponent of Savonarola so Anuradha was executed in May 1490 1498 Machiavelli was elected appointed second Chancellor secretarial in June the coincidence speaks indicates that the fall of savanah Rolla marked the political change in which the enemies of Savonarola be particularly powerful and they rewarded Nicola the other is that the first Chancellor of the Republic were childhood in Virginia driana was a distinguished humanist very close friend of Bernardo Machiavelli the father of Nicola that is not a possibility that he loved he had he admired this young man and he appointed you he helped to make possible the election of Machiavelli to the position of cigarette I remember that in Florence an appointment like that had to be voted by the great count something like the Senate the American Congress so it took in it was necessary large majority was a renewable appoint year after year but in principle could have been a lifetime appointment but you see I am in historians unless I have textual or documentary kyra evidences I don't like to go beyond hypothesis the two that I have applying are now in the scholarship the ideas that are regarded as the most plausible but still we don't know we know the others the other candidates I would like to think that in comparison with Nicholaw they were really really mediocre but we can say that now no one could have said that nickel in 1498 was such a distinguished and such a remarkable political political student of politics and advisor before we can we get two more in depth in in the prints you also raised in your book how the missions she embraced as a secretary shaped his vision of politics and power and greatness and stateless statecraft there are three figures that are present in in your book and there are present in my careless works Catherina Sforza who is 12 and chesil about those three figures are very different very complex very you can write up you know dozens of book about each each character but how do you see those three characters shaping special views the Mack I really had on politics but he took about Catalina's for so what did he take away from she had a war here and what he learned from from Louise twelve that you raised in your book excellent questions he met Caterina sports in 1499 was his first important diplomatic mission in for me my own town Catalina was the Dukas of Forli and Machiavelli as a diplomat he had to ride back to flawless every day a report and it is clear that material was deeply impressed by Catarina a woman Prince he stresses that even if she loved her son Giovanni Giovanni Terry bandanaira she was a remarkable Prince actually only stresses this mom is like that Katarina was canceling meetings when her son was seriously sick so she was a mother but at the same time she was a formidable princess she was a warrior and Machiavelli took from Katarina the idea that if you really want to be a great Prince you have to display display outstanding virtue wear it in the sense of courage determination willingness to continue to fight even when the situation is almost desperate Katarina remained in Machiavelli's imagination for many years until Machiavelli's death he wrote about her in the discourses on Livy around 1515 he wrote about her in the florentine histories and the story he created the myth he created a myth about Katarina sports a meet based on a legend that Mikael himself invented so you see a real list when people say my Kara's realest realest who invented Legends but the legend of about Catalina's first is so spicy that I cannot describe and reveal it here you will read it it's really too spicy McCauley was really could be was able being very very we say in America graphic in from the other impressive meeting for him was Caesar birth the Deucalion Tino the son of the Pope Adrian the six he met him twice in 1512 June and September and then he saw him again in Rome in 1503 when he was declined of course Machiavelli was deeply impressed by the military qualities of the Duke his ruthlessness his capacity of disposing of his enemies warlords he admired the Duke of all the for all the qualities that were lacking in the Florentine government yet in his soy he believed that Valentino was up to do something really great but then when Valentino was defeated when Melinda Valentino declined he has no words of admiration for him that is to say that you did not make on Machiavelli a lasting impression also Machiavellian Meyer was impressed by the Duke Valentino's ability to practice politics as staging he really was in China on December 26 1502 and so what the Valentino did with his lieutenant Ramiro they are he put the body of Ramiro cut into two pieces in the main square of China to indicate to the peoples of China that what to negate what why such barber's execution why the staging well Ramiro had been extremely cruel in order to restore order but the people hated Ramiro therefore therefore the Duke in order to appease the people put such put up such stage Mikey really noticed try to interpret the meaning of that gesture and the meaning was the Duke wanted to prove to everyone just as he was able of uniting the peoples of Romania into a new political body he had the power of dismembering a body so the staging was an eloquent act was a speech and Machiavelli was interpreting that meaning of the King of France Machiavelli only says McGary was quite a diplomat I'm sure President Obama will immediately require his resignation had Michaela been a point by the United States government as an ambassador because he was sent in in 1502 to France to meet the king now you have to imagine the size France was the greatest power of the time Florence is small Republic you say Mikey really to speak to the Prime Minister the Cardinal they own about important political matters what is my heavenly saying to the Cardinal he says look you French as you are saying that we tell means to not know how to organize an army but you French you understand absolutely nothing about the state nice words to say to a prime minister maintain it in the diplomatic count that's exactly what you should say Machiavelli however stressed that the merit of the King of France was to have produced a unified country in which the power of the king was limited by the laws and by institutions such as the French Parliament the Parliament that were judicial bodies so he admired the what the King of France had done for this which is to say their capacity to build a unified state in which the king however important was not about the laws now that that we're talking about these figures that that shaped Machiavelli that you raised in your book and you talk about how much I really wanted to redeem himself there's a historical moment julius ii Machiavelli advises solareenie not to be neutral in a conflict where Pope junior second was very active and out of that neutrality the Republic turn apart that's very for Mikey really the greatest mistake you can do in politics particularly in foreign politics is to remain neutral when there is a conflict between two great powers because Micheli stresses whoever wins we regard you as an enemy or as a as a person doesn't deserve respect or as a faith friend so you lose in any case you should have the courage to take a stand to choose to stay with one of the two and to behave loyally and then even if you have chosen to stay with the losing side with the losing power the winner we respect you whereas if you remain neutral you might well lose respect the warden McKenney uses repeted see on a reputation for Machiavelli the key of political power of course one of the of the bases of the conditions in order to be pal was to have an army the size of the territory the population but above all reputation and if you remain neutral you lose reputation if you lose reputation that is the worst possible defeat Thank You professor now let me show you a picture of a place that I think you've been there many many many times there is also one wonderful tavern and the restaurant they recommend this was Nikolas house when he was in exile and basically where the Prince was written so the discourse is clear all my careless works she comes to this place in poverty in exile large family scarce resources at the time how do you think a person with so much emotions and so much frustration could have the discipline to sit down and look for his personal Redemption writing those books in this place at those times because you raised that point actually in the book I'm very fond of Machiavelli sounds and the tavern that exists now here because he's a very fond memories about it in 1987 my friends and colleagues organized a dinner for me to celebrate the fact that I was appointed at Princeton University many years ago that was it there was the changing moment of my life we had a fabulous dinner around close to the fireplace but personal memories apart though they are important the answer to your question is very simple precisely because Machiavelli was living in a condition of Solitude living the kind of life that was not his life he tried all he could to resurrect what was the kind of life that Machiavelli wanted to live he wanted to live a life in which he had the possibility to do something great for his country that what all his life has been dedicated dedicated all his help to this this city you see Machiavelli was not joking at all when he wrote in December 10 1513 he wrote that lamia poverty' Ella Providence tan my poverty is the evidence of my honesty he served it in 1498 through 1512 for the Republic he was in control of enormous sums of money because he was paying the mercenaries cash those people in a state tax amazing you gotta break the check to a Mersenne no no he was kidding the money the fluorines yet he was poor in 1512 then he was in 1419 so politics did not make him rich in politics is he had the posse to see how ungrateful human beings are how mean they can be but still for him to be in politics was the only chance to try to do something great and when at the end of his life he wrote in a letter I love a more Lamia pantry at you the Lamia NEMA I love my country more than my soul he was perfectly serious now for a man like this to live in Santander in producing I'd love to live there I would immediately sign an agreement with the with the mayor of Sant Andreu can I stay there for until night I just read your books Marvis plays excellent wine no for Micheli that was painful painful so the only way is so to be able to be again himself was to read the books ancient histories to reflect on grand politics to give life with a stroke of imagination to a redeemer that's what Machiavelli to be able at least to think and write about grand politics since he was not allowed to practice it in the letter of December 10 Edith a minut redic Amy passcode equalled chibok a solo memmio idea knock whipper Louie I Norrish myself for that food that is my only for my only nourishment ad unoccupied and I was born for it what is this knowledge that food is similar to the spiritual food of religion is the food and nourishes your soul that allows you to be alive and to be yourself what kind of food was it was thinking about grant politics that was what precisely because he was defeated he was able to write these two masterpieces the discourses and the prints you can if you read with the tension you can see that as I said that the prince is the effort of a man who didn't want to give up the possibility of being himself Thank You professor let me show you three pictures this is the Prince John Jack's Rousseau and this is Isaiah Berlin one of the great essays about Machiavelli was written called the originality of Machiavelli so let me put two questions to you first Mike I really wanted Fame in his works and if that is the case isn't it ironic that few of the books that were published during his life a the ones that gave him more fame was lemon a Buddha a company gave him Fame throughout Italy and the art of war why didn't he have the same eagerness with the prince to make it public I'll make a renown work that's a very important why Machiavelli did not publish the prince in his eye time why he did not publish the discourses only here are the major Wars now for the discourses we know the book remained at the stage of a draft he never completed it we know that he only will never was never able to produce a final thread by the way we don't have the original manuscript of the prince we don't have the original manuscript of the discourses either we have copies of the original texts reliable but copies now the answer to the question really was eager of Fame now he was eager of glory the difference between fame and glory is simple the fame is the family speak of you you're known but the glories the bond a family bond own is a good fame of the good people it requires a higher level of moral excellence to be glorious and glory was they form a key really the way to survive to defeat death to gain immortality in this Mikkel he was a man of the Renaissance and but why then he didn't publish the prince my answer is he did not publish the prince because they okay the opportunity the reason for him to compose that as emerged in 1513 but is because the book is an oration the Redeemer for Machiavelli who was not a prince a professor was not a professional scholar he was a citizen politically active was a politician though without political he was an advisor so he for him it did not make sense to print a book on the Redeemer when it was clear after 1515 that there was no chance of redemption that the possibility was gone that book would have been irrelevant after 1513 now however you have to consider one historical detail that for a man of Machiavelli Stein of his generation to distribute a manuscript was like to publish it to allow people to copy it was the same as printing it so it's true he did not strive to have it published was published only the prince was born five years after Michele is dead but he allowed it to circulate the reason why I did not make an effort to print it as I think is the one I explained it is a book about the redemption of Italy he did not want to pursue that idea when it was clear to everyone that were there were no chances whatsoever for a political redemption of Italy yes I am Berlin wrote an essay called the the originality of Machiavelli and I want to change the question to the originality of bitterly because you have you have made a great analysis of the prince rescuing the prince from from bad criticism in innocence but you also raise two very important questions about Machiavelli was Machiavelli a religious man did he did he use the Bible or or sacred texts us as an inspiration for his works and in page 101 you mentioned in the discourses he wrote that he read the Bible judiciously and he did it because he wanted to learn from politics and war then I think it's part of the originality of your interpretation of the prince how would you judge Machiavelli's religiosity when you have published a book called Machiavelli's God and thinking of a character that has been so much criticized by the church historically yes right you cited Isaiah Berlin for Isaiah Berlin the originality of Machiavelli consists in the faith he was a pagan that he was not following Christian morality but the pagan ancient Roman morality I think that on this issue as I Berlin was not right now he really was never he never wrote sentences that allow us to think that he was a pagan nothing he had wrote Machiavelli - you know from the texts is that certainly Machiavelli read the Bible you read that used the Bible extensively judiciously as he says not in order to find theological truths but in order to find political wisdom that's why for instance when Machiavelli wants to explain explaining the prince that to use mercenary armies is useless and dangerous to use the weapons of all the armies of others hooks in your arms armies that are under the command of somebody yes he tells the story of Goliath and David so he uses a biblical narration his works are replete with references to the Bible that's for sure of why and why the religious problem was so important for much important for Michael because Mike heavily believed that only religious people can be free he said it chapter twelve discourses book 1 the examples who were the free peoples in Europe the Romans the Romans were religious the ancient Tuscans they were deeply religious were there did he know of free peoples in his own time yes the free German cities that he visited in 1507 but they were Christians of a very very rigorous type of Christianity so for my conclusion of Machiavelli was straightforward if you are not religious you cannot be free and I can explain why all religious peoples of history he wrote have been religious if you're religious you can be free that's why he said Italians cannot be free why because no italiana Jemison thoroughly Jonica tv.we tenants because of the Church of Rome we are irreligious sons thoroughly Joan and cat TV wicked via forum free can we then extract the idea that he was a religious man you know the problem is again the same if you enter you try to understand the beliefs of a person Streamy difficult particularly for a man like Machiavelli who did not like to open his soul to reveal himself but in all his writings he speaks of God always respectful never never a word of insult of dismissive God is the Creator God is the power who helps Redeemers God loves justice God is the last resort of afflict the humiliated human beings God is the promise of salvation how do you make of this I think that Machiavelli had a God of his own he believed in a god that was very much the God of the Bible but interpreted according to principles of political virtue allow me to sum up please don't think that I'm trying to be too impressed that's none I think that material is God is exactly the God of the Americas is that type of God is the God that you find in the works of Lincoln you'll find in the works of the founders in the American Civic religion that's the type of God that Machiavelli would have liked to see becoming the center of a new religious sentiment in Italy what a great answer another another question and this is this is a particularly interesting because Machiavelli has been criticized to be like this sort of historical advisor to tyrants and when you read Graham XI and you mention Graham changeable Ramsay was a communist communist intellectual leader how do you think Ramsey got to interpret Machiavelli in a way that his philosophy and thought can be applicable to his views of communism well that's a really fascinating story as you know Graham she in jail he was imprisoned by Mussolini in 1926 he left the prison 1937 to die in a hospital Graham she was a defeated man just like Machiavelli in 1512 Graham she was the leader of Italian Communist Party crushed of course by Mussolini so Graham she reads Machiavelli enjoyed and he writes this line in print with Machiavelli only Brava vent is a living book is a book that produces political life that inspires that motivates and Grahm she makes the equation between calls Machiavelli the theorist I will print Chippewa well he who would be the Prince knew four grams she would be the Communist Party the Communist Party as Graham Shand stood it should be the creator of new political orders just like Machiavelli's redeemer should be the creator of new political also graham she makes an analogy of course there is a big difference between the Communist Party and Machiavelli's political leader nonetheless the reason why I think Graham she perceived very well understood very well the meaning of the prince it seems because gram she was in a political and personal condition that was very similar to the condition of mikela 1512 so he was able to grasp the meaning of of the prints and they think there is a lot to be said to that about that interpretation my grams also was absolutely right in stressing that the center of the book is the exhortation but not only grams Hegel to thought regard the exhortation as the center of the prints so you can see that my careless message about political Redemption found someone capable understanding not bene but some for instance during the Italian Risorgimento the experienced printer which Italy tended independence and political unity Italians appreciated the prints because of the exhortation what I'm saying is that in order for a political message to be appreciated you need some particular culture and political conditions people willing and capable of listening and understanding the sound and the meaning of the words of Machiavelli's gustation gram she certainly was one Thank You professor well I come to my last question with that with a picture of this place that you mentioned in your introductory remarks that's where I go every morning you have written Machiavelli and republicanism you have written Nicole with a smile you have written Machiavelli's God and you have written redeeming the prince what will be your next challenge I could not a man's materials vitamin redemption of Italy I cannot redeem myself from Machiavelli it's an obsession that's why my daughter always a bob no say stanky deer is impressed esta casa dead aren't you tired of saying always the same things and she has a point but what can I do about that my next book on nicola will be Nicolas method to investigate his method for studying politics since the usual interpretations that Mikhail was a scientist I will show in fact that Machiavelli's method of studying and understanding real politics real political action was not exactly the method of a political scientist as we understand political science today mercury was interpreting the meaning of actions so for instance typical issue that Machiavelli discussed he is the peace between the king of Spain and the King of France lasting and why are they agreed to strike a peace treaty in April 1st 1513 McKenna tries to respond to this question by understanding the passions they believe sell Arizona the reasons for acting of princes so he want to interpret to decode their intentions and they think this is exactly what we should do if we want to understand politics to understand what different political leaders want to attain what is their goal how you do that for instance let's consider a typical problem what will President Obama do with Syria how do you know well miquellee would say consider the passions of this man his beliefs considered the goal that he wants to take on see that the kind of person he is that that's not don't rely on general rules or general laws that say leaders in such-and-such situations they behave or normally behave in this way you have to know what kind of person is that person to be able to predict or at least be able to grasp what he is gonna do and this is a method that I call historical interpretive and is a method that I think his team particularly valuable to understand real politics my next book will be a critique of prevailing of conventional political science I teach in the Department of Political Science I really think that if we want to understand real political life we should go back to Machiavelli and rediscover his interpretive historical method matter this is interpreting because he wants to understand the meanings of actions and historical because he uses historical analogies so he's gonna say this situation resembles another situation you've seen in the past and from the past we can learn how to deal with the present nobody does that anymore at least not in the context of political science political scientists now they use diagrams they use equations they use maths that's was not Machiavelli's met thing much to conclude if we go back to Machiavelli we can gain on two fronts first we can redeem political science from its self self-inflicted corruption and we can redeem our own times from the sense of hopelessness and we can at least keep alive the idea that grant politics is possible Thank You professor fearo Lee has been at the life [Applause]

Channel: Cultura América Latina y el Caribe

Views: 6,262

Rating: 4.8048782 out of 5

Keywords: Maurizio Viroli, Iván Duque Márquez, Niccolò Machiavelli (Politician)

Id: q8oCYLYhHI4

Length: 79min 9sec (4749 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 23 2015