Mandated V’s: the Christian response | WRETCHED RADIO

[Music] well isn't this uh fine how do you do this is wretched radio perhaps your tisch raiden have been revolving around the subject of mandated vs you say what's with the cryptic language it sounds awfully covert you can't even say the whole v word you're correct we can't because we'd be canceled because that's what china i'm sorry we're still in america because that's what happens these days when you want your agenda pushed you do not allow conversation that's what totalitarianism has always looked like and yet that is precisely where we are these days on a number of cultural subjects you can't even express your opinion so much for freedom of speech even so we are here where we have to be rather covert in our language because if we say the v word we could be canceled off of platforms and yet we christians are confronted with a decision for some it is harder than others and yet we are all quite interested in how a christian should respond if the government or your employer mandates a v how do we figure out such a complex subject if we do not have a rudder getting through these choppy waters will get us way off course and so we are going to use seven steps that we outlined in a resource called wretched world view available at wretched.org where we tackle 22 subjects one step at a time to bring clarity how do i respond because i know what my guts tell me but what does the bible say to me about this subject the seven steps if you recall begin with pre-understandings you have to lose them your brain needs to be etch-a-sketched now that is easier for some of us than others but you need to get rid of whatever it is that you are feeling about the subject of mandated v's perhaps you think this violates my constitutional rights this violates nuremberg the geneva convention those are pre-understandings that a lot of evangelicals possess you've got to scratch it for now we'll come back to them at the very end but i want to deal with my pre-understandings after i have a biblical understanding but perhaps you think my body my choice we we maybe thought that a phrase like that could work apparently it doesn't apply for both sides at the table regarding the v you might just be thinking this whole thing is a hoax anyway this a mandated v is actually worse than the actual disease that the cure could kill me perhaps you're thinking that for the time being you're going to have to lose it here's another one i suspect out of the tens and tens of people listening to this program you might possess the pre-understanding that this hasn't been tested and i don't know the long-term effects and i am not going to do this if it puts my life and my family's life at risk that is a subject that is really going to become important and which by the way we are not going to tackle you're going to have to do your own data research this exercise is to simply give us a biblical framework for plugging in that information finally you might be thinking hey baby stem cells were used in the research and that violates my christian conscience well these days that might not matter because there are some employers that are saying it doesn't matter about your religion you're going to take it anyway are those your pre-understandings can you set them aside for a moment as we dive into explicit bible verses please note at no point during this diatribe am i going to tell you what i think about the subject i have my opinion this is simply an effort to lay everything out and sometimes this is a struggle for us because we don't like some of the stuff getting laid out and yet we have to so please don't hear that i'm leading this one way or another i'm just setting forth the arguments that are possessed by varying people based on different bible verses and so we'll put two of them together that i think are the explicit bible verses i have a number of implicit bible verses that i think inform us on the subject but when you are trying to figure out an issue you got to go for the bull's-eye what's like is is there a bible verse that says a christian should or shouldn't take a mandated v if you got that verse well that's the best place to start because it's crystal clear and then you also let the implicit verses give you any nuance to the subject but you look primarily for the ones that are most pointed and the only two that i believe fit underneath this category and if you disagree by the way i'd be most grateful if you'd send them to me i'm more than happy to share them because i know a lot of people are struggling with this subject especially if they're already being told you've got to do this and they're finding themselves going but i don't want to and yet i want to be biblical about this i'm a christian after all send me those verses idea wretched dot org the two that i come up with that are in the bull's eye are romans 13 first peter two you've got to you've got to admit those verses are really really clear about doing what we are told to do by the government now we also have informing us acts chapter 2 acts chapter 4 acts chapter 4 i forget to where peter and john are preaching they get put in prison they are told by the authorities stop preaching they say sorry no can do because you can't command us to do something sinful therefore we can disobey you and we must obey god you need to put that into the pot with first peter 2 and romans 13. that we do what we are commanded to do if it is not sinful if it is sinful then you do have permission biblically by example in acts chapter 4 to not do what what you are told but i think we need to really fixate for just a second on the import of first peter 2 and romans 13. i do not see wiggle room i do not see room sorry for lesser magistrates therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the lord's sake whether to the king as supreme or the governors as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good for this is the will of god that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men as free yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice but as bond servants of god honor all people love the brotherhood fear god honor the king that seems airtight to me because it is with the only exception brilliantly being acts chapter 4. if it's a command to sin or it's a command to not do an ordinance of the church you can disobey otherwise i think you're buttoned down and there's there's just no room for wiggling now please note if you're already concluding so you're telling me i need to do this no i'm i'm not i'm just laying forth what i think are the explicit bible verses now we're going to take a look at the implicit bible verses so that we can weigh this out and figure out specifically is it a sin to take the v is it a sin to do because if it's not well then you would have to you'd have to submit to romans 13 and first peter 2. but because acts tells us that there can be exceptions to that rule we need to figure out if it is and i think that we will begin wrestling with that with the implicit bible verses and it focuses quite heavily on two subjects one would be the human body and the other would be other people's body your body other people's body genesis one we are image bearers of god and the these these bodies that god has given to us as for a reason exodus chapter 20 an implicit verse that says thou shalt not murder not kill murder and so murdering i think is something that needs to be considered because if you believe that this v could cause death well then you'd have to say well i i i i can't do it because that would be a violation of this command and that is why you're going to have to do your own research on this subject what are genuine risks and what are not first corinthians six your body is a temple of the holy spirit first corinthians 15 you're going to have a resurrection body why am i bringing this up because the issue of the human body is important you can't abuse it you can't you can't use it wrongly you can't simply wiggle out from the subject because your body doesn't matter because the body does that was the corinthian mistake at least in part the entire old testament and i believe in first peter men are commanded to protect wife and children matthew 12 tells us to love our neighbor that issue is in view the mantra these days is you know do it for other people well that's a christian slogan we do do things for other people because we love them and we consider the good samaritan making sure that we take care of people those are the implicit bible verses on the subject how do you put all of that into a pot stir it around and come up with a conclusion next on wretched radio do i have the definitive word on this subject nope this is wretched radio whilst i realize that violates talk show host rule number one that you don't admit you're wrong that you don't know something the issue of mandated vs that's right mandated vs cause we can't use that word without being cancelled it's a tricky subject and there's a lot to it and different christians have different opinions and we need something more than our guts to tell us what we are supposed to do if the government or your employer tells you you must receive this v otherwise you're going to be fired you won't have access to things etc how do we figure it out step number one you lose whatever your pre-understanding is whatever your gut tells you just lose it for a moment consider the explicit bible verses i think the only explicit ones you have are romans 13 and 1st peter 2. we submit to the government period full stop end of discussion unless courtesy of acts when we see peter and john arrested for preaching the gospel and being told by the authorities to zip it and they said sorry we have to obey god we see an exception to the romans 13 1st peter 2 rule and that exception is if they tell us to sin well then we can't obey them we obey god those are the explicit considerations the implicit considerations in my opinion focus on the body my body your body your body other people's bodies they're important that's what i get from genesis 1 where image bearers of god god made us different than everybody else we have a body and it is important to him how do i know because we're not supposed to murder other bodies it's a temple it's going to be a resurrected body courtesy of first corinthians 15. i need to protect my family's bodies that's the entire old testament matthew tells me to on the other hand love my neighbor i also see the story of the good samaritan i do consider other people's well-being those are the explicit and implicit bible verses but let me take you now to a subject that can be a little bit trickier and please note i'm not trying to lead you anywhere which is why again if you know a bible verse that applies to this believe me i'm all email send one to idea wretched dot org and i will happily share it but we need to consider how we figure this out biblically and through the lens of the gospel if the entire universe revolves around that subject then we need to apply that subject to my situation so here's how i did it your mileage may vary the body is important we've learned that but we from the other verses but also from the from the gospel jesus had a body and died for our bodies that we might have a resurrected eternal body so bodies are not insignificant i can't just trash them or do things that are reckless with them they have high value i also learned from the gospel that death is inevitable i'm not going to fear death shouldn't anyway we don't have it the world has it that is obvious these days isn't it hence the panic they're terrified of death if you've been wondering what's with all of this stuff that's going on it's part of it there's more but part of it is there's a tremendous fear of death right now in our culture when you're post-christian you can expect that because only christians can have confidence to stare into the jaws of death and not be terrified death is inevitable the gospel tells me but the gospel also tells me god loves me and he loves the world god loves the world and so should i i should be considerate with what i do with my body i don't drive recklessly because i don't want myself and other people to be hurt that is all a part of loving neighbor but that's also informed by the gospel let's move into church history what is the church said on this subject well this would be a good place for you to go study romans 13 and 1st peter 2 again what has been the church view on the subject of submitting to government i lay that out in a video that is actually strangely enough still available at least on the youtube machine should a christian take the cv question mark yep we've come to this i've got to abbreviate and not say the word you can watch that presentation and noodle through it it's going to be very important in the days ahead that we understand what the role of government is in our life and how we're supposed to respond to it when it makes really personal bad decisions the church historically has basically said submit to the gup just do what you're told now there are some folks these days that believe in something called the lesser magistrates that you as a lesser magistrate now you are you are responsible for making sure that the the upper magistrates behave well if they don't you can deal with them in whatever way you see fit i do not adhere to that position i believe that if the government tells me to put pinwheels on the side of my head every time that i go to publix i'm going to put pinwheels on the side of my head it could look like a lot of pastors these days the point is i think we submit to our government but the gov but church history tells us more and this goes back to the subject that i think is so important and that is the subject of the body what is the church taught about the body we are embodied souls john cooper theologian calls it holistic dualism we aren't either or we're not spirit or a body we're both things it's a substance dualism we have an immaterial soul but a material body one functionality but two essentially what there's one of us functionally but two of us essentially because your essential makeup your essential substance is body and soul two that function as one i keep bringing this up because i need to consider my body if i do something to my body that's risky uh that's a bad thing we need to determine if this particular mandated v thing is a crossing the line into sin thing and yet we move on to our testimony how does my testimony play into this i want to be thinking on a higher level this is a big deal this is an unprecedented situation and yet there have been others historically and god continues to build his church that's my primary interest in other words i want souls saved more than anything i you and i should be like the apostle paul i'd rather i'd rather go to hell than see my my sid my fellow citizens my fellow jews not respond to the gospel that's that should be our feeling too and so the testimony needs to be considered in that if i make the the decision to do this or not to do this it plays on my testimony if people of course find out so the question is does this enhance or detract from my testimony my testimony also however tells me that i will fear no evil i'm not going to be scared of death and and i can show that you say those two things seem to be in conflict no those two things are just there and you need to weigh them that is the point of this exercise which brings us to finally our objections you may recall these were our pre-understandings the things that we had to set aside in light of all that we've learned let's work through them shall we this violates my constitutional rights it violates nuremberg geneva that is correct i i would say this as an american those issues are important from a christian processing i'm not sure that they actually are a part of my theological pondering i think it's a no-brainer as an american isn't it and and that annoys all of us but theologically i'm not sure where that plays in i can't trump what the bible says because of a constitutional right the bible's above the constitution the bible is above everything i do i i follow it my body my choice yeah that's that's got some import to it because it is your body and you're responsible for it and you need to weigh that this this whole thing is a hoax you're gonna have to figure that out and weigh that the cure is more dangerous than the disease i'm telling you this is where you need to do earnest homework and please check out all sources don't go to the pool that you always swim in check out what other people have to say about it look at it as objectively as you possibly can because i think this whole thing is going to come down to whether you think this thing is dangerous for your body or not which is another pre-understanding slash objection the v more dangerous than the disease the v hasn't been tested so we don't know the long-term effects you're right and that is valid you need to weigh how much that is going to put onto the scale that says therefore i can't do something to my body that might endanger it if that's valid you might have a valid reason to say no can do but you've got to do the work on that same thing with baby stem cells used to make these things you're going to have to work through the philosophical issue you're going to have to work through the science issue apply all of these verses and submit yourself your thinking your guts to the bible so that you can make a decision about whether or not to take a mandated the this is wretched radio got questions send them to jimmy this is wretched radio the subject of mandated v's he said covertly to keep from being canceled on some platforms that don't particularly care for a free exchange of ideas well we christians should huddle together and ask the question how do i respond if the government or if my business my employer insists that i get a mandated todd i think that was redundant v how do you noodle through it how do you figure it out it ain't easy tried to set forth seven steps in order to do that the best way that we can and in my opinion it just keeps coming down to an individual's understanding of what this thing is i i i've noodled this i've talked to other brothers about it and and this for me continues to be the persistent the only way that i can see that a christian can say nope not going to do it because it's dangerous to my body or to the bodies of my family now you you have to be able to with a clear conscience say this is an imminent danger having said that we also understand as christians there are risks in life you go outside of your house you stay in your you wake up you lit you breathe there's a risk now does that mean that we can be carefree and that that we can be reckless absolutely not so which is it you wonder well that's up to you you've got to figure this out because if i told you what i thought about it then i would be trying to impose my conscience on your conscience and that's unconscionable that just i shouldn't do that and i'm trying not to do that i'm simply trying to put out all the weights when you when you measure when before we had electronic scales or even the mechanical ones you had the weight system balanced on both sides and you you would put a weight on each side to know how much stuff you should give to the person that's buying from you what does this thing weigh that's the question what is it wait what do these things weigh what does my body weigh well i mean you know besides what you see on the scale the point is protecting myself versus protecting the bodies of others and i know what you're thinking you're saying but i don't think that this is an issue i just don't i think this is overblown and the whole distancing thing is is not necessary you've got to be firmly convinced of that and i would also say this though i keep coming back to is it a risk for your body because i would say this under normal circum something else let's let's try to remove it from this realm for a moment if there was something else the government asked me to do would i be willing to do it even though i don't like it because it protects other people and the truth of the matter is that happens all the time every time you hit a stop sign you're in a hurry you'd like to get someplace the stop sign says nope you've got to wait why it's for the safety of yourself and for the safety of others so we do these things we do things the government tells us to do for the good of other people now that's a christian value but that aside we should be willing to look at something and say all right if it is indeed not dangerous and if indeed it does protect other people i'm not sure the bible gives wiggle room for getting out of it and i'm not even going to take a breath here because you're going to say well then you're telling me to take the thing no i'm not i'm telling you you need to figure out what the thing is what is it that means if you have not done some earnest research on this i don't think that any of us are ready to make a decision on it now i am not i believe me you're if you're thinking that you're catching me saying something that goes aha that's my side well yeah you're going to hear that but then somebody's going to hear how that's their side because i'm just trying to lay the thing out for us right now to weigh it and to figure it out so that i don't get annoyed with other christians who make a different decision on the subject because you'd have to argue i think that this is probably ultimately going to be audiophara this is going to be different decisions for different christians but let's just say the government your boss said you've got to do this and it was reasonably proven it's not dangerous it can't risk your body we we know any long-term effects if there are any at all and when we believe that this is something that could help others i i i i don't know what verse would make us exempt on the other hand there is research out there that would suggest indeed there are some risks to this thing all kinds of things are being reported what website are you checking out check them all out now this one is going to make just about everybody squirm the risks currently as we understand them are are need to be weighed on on two levels first is the immediate the imminent threat of death and the second level would be long-term effects because we don't know what they are because the thing hasn't been around long enough because approval typically takes my understanding is at least five years clearly that hasn't happened so i if if the imminent threat is indeed imminent i believe that as a christian you could say because of the value of body thou shalt not murder i wouldn't do something risky to somebody else's body then i shouldn't do it to mine either or to my family's bodies if you take a look though at the current statistics of death it's quite low now i know i know it's being reported that there are thousands i i totally understand that but that it's a it's a percentage-wise i think i think even if you take the higher number that some whistleblowers are using from the cdc and that the statistic is something like 48 or 50 000. others are saying no about 4 000 to 5 thousand okay we gotta figure out which it is as best we can and then consider therefore how much is that of a risk to me because if it's a risk i think biblically you have an exemption if it's not that much of a risk then you could say yeah for the sake of others i'm going to do it which of course brings you back to is this really good for others does this thing even work what is the efficacy of this thing it's it's debatable you think i got it i got it and that's why so much of this comes down to what you conclude based on the research that you are responsible for doing you gotta you're gonna have to google it dig have some conversations about it with other christians just make sure you check out all sources now having said that if you conclude look it it's a risk and i i i wouldn't i wouldn't play russian roulette if those were my odds that would be wrong fair enough the long-term issue what are the potential effects of this it depends on who you read if you listen to one one news feed no worries nothing to see here just move on listen you get other news feeds and they're telling you oh no no there's all kinds of issues here you've got to you've got to weigh them you you've you've got to do that work because i think if i'm even warm to framing this it seems to me the principle in this situation should be we should submit to the government we should love our neighbors and do what is best for them as long as it's not a sin specifically murder or playing loose with my body which is a temple of the holy spirit which is going to be a resurrected body which is a body that jesus died for i can't do that i think that's the principle the whole thing it was a comma in between those two thoughts not not a period in another sentence that i think that's the principle so this keeps coming back to what do you think of the whole shebang are you convinced in your own conscience that you have this straight then you need to make a decision and and it it may be that you do something that other people don't really appreciate it may be that you lose your job or privileges and that is why i think every man every woman should be persuaded in their own mind on this subject it's not up to me to do it it's not up to anybody to do that now you can work through it with your church certainly i think you should and with your elders i i just think though that because of what this thing is and so much of the nebulous nature of it that i think it comes down to an individual decision and and i don't think it would be wise of a church to say here's the church position this is what you've got to do don't take it take it uh personally i i think that would be stepping too far into a territory that while most certainly is theological that while most certainly has sin components to it it would not be one where a law should be made and there should be room for different christians to come up with different responses jimmy yes any comments or oh i got a lot of them all right then we're gonna hear those because i would love to hear your feedback too and if you send me a bunch of stuff that causes me to go whoa whoa whoa we gotta add stuff or i'm gonna backpedal i will happily do that send it to idea wretched.org jimmy will represent you next oh don't don't ponder that for long on wretched radio hey how you doing great program i really liked it be the host hello this is wretched hello this it almost felt rude not to greet her back this is wretched radio uh jimmy is now going to play host representing you the tens and tens of people listening to wretched radio because jimmy i just laid forth what i believe is a principle gleaned from as many bible verses as i could think of that i think should guide a person through so i'm just gonna summarize that okay and then you launch into whatever you think is a deficiency a fallacy or i didn't cover something all right okay i believe that christians are mandated commanded to submit to government and do what we are told unless you believe that doing so would be a sin and therefore you must conclude if you believe that the mandated v could kill you could kill your family or if not taking it could kill others and therefore you need to do the research on this subject from a variety of sources to conclude would taking it or not taking it be a sin so jimmy there's my framework for it what am i here well you're i don't think you're biffing anything i would like some more clarification on the argument that i see that um i think needs to be addressed a little bit more because individual decision is is what i i'm hearing um from from what you framed out here and i agree with that but what i'm seeing is that uh someone needs to make this decision with the with others in mind over themselves the selfishness thing is yes right and so i i think i i think there's a there there is a deficiency there okay no not in your life no i i got it no no no in fact no let me so let me just clarify how i see the point that you're making i should be thinking more about others than myself you see that the world has hijacked the idea that we should be thoughtful and considerate of other people when it comes to this issue of transmitting something viral i i get that uh and and and we should we should be the ones who say uh yeah i understand it because you took it from us we're the ones who esteem others as better than self we're the one who loves neighbor we see the good samaritan story so i am going to put other people's issues ahead of mine having said that i still can't murder i still can't do something that is harmful to my body and okay so now let's just so which one is it it could be better for others bodies what about my body we need to work out in concentric circles your primary concern frankly is self you you you are primary who is more responsible for what happens to your body than you answer nobody and so you need to do what you think is right for your body and then your family's body then your neighbor's body but my desire all along should be i want their body to be healthy and flourish but you clearly if you believe that doing this mandated v is going to cause you to potentially die you think that that is a that is a a genuine risk i i would not say imminent risk i i wouldn't say low risk you got to figure out what the risk is yourself and if it means that taking it is murdering your body or abusing your temple because the long-term effects are not known you make that decision for you and your family first if it's in contradiction with neighbor if not and now here's here's where we've got to submit to bible if not if those concerns are genuinely not valid and i know it's tough to figure that out these days different voices chirping different statistics different viewpoints i get it but if it is not a risk to your life or to the life of your family i think that we need to put other people's health now as stated before i also get you believe this thing isn't going to do any good for anybody in fact perhaps you've seen a statistic that indicates it actually could cause it okay uh which is it and i think that's up to you to figure out it's gonna be it's gonna be up to you jimmy have you seen acrimony on this subject on social media oh yes all right is is there like gun fights over doing it or not doing it yes yes okay uh are any of the arguments that are being forwarded by either side were they were they not addressed in how i put the framework via seven steps i do believe yes i do believe how you frame this should answer any questions anybody should have okay because one thing that i would say is oh acrimony i i is there any subject these days that is less acidic than this i okay yeah actually crt is right up there with with this subject there's a lot going on in our world and over this particular issue going to war with other believers jimmy i also went out onto a bit of a limb to suggest that because of the complex nature of this because of smart people on both sides of the issue looking at the medical research that is at least available understanding virology that i don't think a church should be mandating one way or another uh you okay with that absolutely all right let's dig a little deeper what however if your church says you know what if you have you can come in here but if you haven't you go over there and and you're and you're segregated what if what if they do that i'd have to admit as long as you can't like pick up what they're laying down by choosing a side if they are genuinely stating in christian love we've got different people with different views on this whole thing there's so many questions about it that we're just gonna we're trying to accommodate this for the sake of christian love now i understand the implication for ecclesiology but in this context i could understand a church lovingly potentially maybe doing such a thing and i don't think that if they did that wouldn't give me cause to leave the place you're going to a bible teaching church do not leave over this subject please don't there's a really decent chance you're on the same page with your pastor on the subject because if you've been going to that church you should be of like minds even so you might have been shocked to discover and your pastor's got different considerations weighing different issues he has souls in the balance that he's pondering maybe comes up with a different decision please don't split on this no and someday someday if it turns out that you are right in your view and your pastor was wrong then you get to grow in the fruit of self-control and not remind him about his bad decision i told you so yeah i told you so this is this is this is tricky business and there's there's another whole class and category here that we didn't discuss in this particular presentation but we did in a different i believe it was from from tv that we did this on on wretched tv where we discussed how mr smith and mrs smith could see things differently that she has a background in science he doesn't she's a new convert he's been of the faith for 20 years she has issues that are potential comorbidities he doesn't he has been taking his vitamin d and zinc always a good idea these days she hasn't and so they're just gonna weigh all of this so differently and we need to leave room for that with one another it seems that lately the devil if he is using any particular modus operandi his particular assault weapon these days is division oh wow are we tempted to divide and he is seriously winning right now in that regard regarding the crt business we're seeing a major divide major divide with former folks that that we co-labored with there's there's a division now sometimes absolutely but in other times maybe not so much because it's not an orthodoxy issue in the bullseye if it does become that then you got a different issue but regarding this the pandemic the covid business the v's [Laughter] we we should be showing the world what it actually looks like to disagree with somebody and do it agreeably to do it with such a way that the world goes so wait a second you're hanging out with a bunch of me you got a completely different opinion huh and yet you seem to be really nice to one another bingo because don't forget in the context of first peter 2 and submitting to government because it's for the sake of the gospel so too is how we respond to this souls are really in the balance this is a big deal so let's do it biblically let's do it graciously let's do it even convictionally but let us do it in christian love and until tomorrow go serve your king [Music] thank you for calling technical support this is todd freel the wretch the song refers to could i possibly put you on hold for a moment todd we have talked about this you cannot answer the phone this way righto thank you for calling technical support this is todd friel the wretch the song refers to [Music] [Music]

Channel: Wretched

Views: 76,755

Rating: 4.5320911 out of 5

Keywords: Todd Friel, Wretched TV, Wretched Radio, Evangelism, Gospel, Christian, Jesus, Theology, Bible, Christianmedia, Witnessing, Religion, Preaching, God, Teaching, Media, Openair

Id: 4KzOD_sWZ3o

Length: 44min 47sec (2687 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 09 2021