Malcolm Nance: How Russia Is Destroying Democracy

just to be clear that's for you man that Quinton's  pop yeah I know it's my town well good evening and   welcome to today's program at the Commonwealth  Club my name is Quentin Hardy I'm the head of   editorial at Google cloud and I'm delighted to  be your moderator for tonight's program joining   us is Malcom Nance a retired intelligence  officer and author of the new book the plot   to destroy democracy how Putin and his spies are  undermining America and dismantling the West not   much to worry about there let me set the stage a  bit by reflecting on some current events to talk   a bit about what I think you've done with this  book last week the Senate Intelligence Committee   released a report that supported the view of  three different US intelligence agencies that   Russia tried to help Donald Trump win the 2016  US presidential election Senator Mark Warner   the Democratic vice chairman of the committee said  the Russian effort was extensive and sophisticated   and its goals were to undermine public faith in  the democratic process to hurt Senate Secretary   Clinton and to help Donald Trump out if you  missed this news it's no big surprise that   received relatively little attention possibly  because it was released on the eve of the July   4th holiday for some reason and it might also  have been because the conclusions and the action   there was no call to action to speak of it was  oddly thin against the magnitude of the charge   a foreign adversary it effectively attacked the  centerpiece of our democracy this may be it may   be that this shocking behavior is now the worst  thing that can apparently exist in our public   discourse it was old news as if only the latest  and most novel outrages matter anymore in our   high velocity information world or perhaps  we could retreat too complacent cynicism   well there are enemies what do you expect  or finding other easy conclusions of course   they did it Putin hates Clinton old news again  or they were testing out the cyber they wanted   to make us cynical about democracy that's good  for authoritarians it's something he does let's   just move on our guest tonight does not want  to move on he wants to go deeper and his book the plot to destroy democracy posits what the  Senators affirmed Russia interfered with our   election and it's only a much part of a much  longer and more pervasive attack being waged   on the west and in particular on the United States  he takes us through the history of Russian dense   information campaigns Putin's close associates  and their ruthless philosophies of power their   new method of hybrid warfare that Russia has been  developing for over a decade and the employment   of winning and unwitting Act actors in the West  including the night the right-wing nationalist   movements across Europe and quite possibly our  president a former intelligence agent he builds   his case in much the way a national security  analyst would with the combination of history   methods motives facts and likely supposition  suppositions and when he puts all the fragmented   stories we've heard about Russia's behavior  in one place the conclusion becomes compelling   enough to make at least one reader wonder how bad  a corner we might be in well thank you for that   Malcolm Nance you're welcome don't read it in the  daytime all right let's start a little bit with   your intelligence background because I think it  really is key for the kind of book you've written   here talk a little bit about what you did in the  Defense Intelligence well I came from the Naval   Intelligence world in in particular cryptology and  this is where I get a lot of flack for those of   you who probably see me on MSNBC you know people  say well you're an Arabic interpreter you're an   Arabic linguist you know you're the guy who puts  the headphones on and as we say in our business   does something and which everyone who knows what I  do now goes oh yeah I know exactly what you do so   scary guy you know we go out we do some things and  we collect information to keep you safe and I did   that for 20 years and I spent my entire time in  the Middle East South Asia and sub-saharan Africa   so people naturally go why are you writing these  books about Russia well I I was born in the Cold   War I was raised in the Cold War and I started  my career deep in the Cold War and back in those   days there was this nefarious organization who  was our opposition in the intelligence world   known as the cage and the KGB for you young kids  uh is this organization this Russian intelligence   organization now that was all encompassing  a Soviet intelligence organization they were   Soviet communists and I find that I really do have  to explain that to people because some people say   wait a minute the KGB ceased to exist twenty-five  years ago no when the Soviet Union transitioned   into a fledgling democracy and a consumer economy  and a what is now a very hard right conservative   country they just changed the letters of KGB to  FSB and you know broke off some of the the duties   of that organization and many of the habits of  disinformation and propaganda were just pulling   over wholesale well I mean all you had to do was  put it on new print paper with a header on it that   said fSV right yeah all that stuff still exists it  is it is the the keys and the treasures of Russian   intelligence but for those of us who are of a  certain age we all remember the KGB as being this   global organization that infiltrated everywhere  and carried out operations I was part of that   world even though I worked in the Middle East the  KGB was really everywhere go to Naples Italy and   they would warn you KGB and their subordinates  and their contractors would try to entrap you   and you know in sexual dalliance azure some drug  related activity you go to Naples there they are   you know trying to sell you drugs in the men's  room you go to port Sayid which was in a Gyptian   company country that was backed by the Russians  for decades there they would be Libyan working   the mission in Libya right back to the Libyan  intelligence backed by KGB Iraqi intelligence   backed by KGB they were everywhere there were  ubiquitous and I'm you're working yeah Putin's   in East Germany as a KGB agent we're and at that  time Vladimir Putin was running human agents into   West Germany to steal computer technology and  to try to you know convert people to the Soviet   ideology so the Cold War is not that far behind  us to where this was a requirement for everyone in   intelligence to know what these people were doing  and in my world I ran into them so much I mean we   ran into their operations we collected against  them the Soviet armed forces were constantly in   our face you really had to know who the you know  the strategic adversary of the United States was   then it collapsed and when it collapsed people  thought well this is a new day in Russia and   what we'll get is a fledgling democracy which  for a short period of time we did have but   their intelligence activities never changed their  Armed Forces collapsed but there there are people   out in the field still trying to recruit human  agents still trying to use signals intelligence   against the United States it diminished a bit but  then Vladimir Putin the former KGB officer who   would later become the first director of Russian  intelligence of the FSB took over and became the   leader of Russia and that would be like making  me president right because at that point you   started thinking hey I really had fun when I was  in operations right and so you know you sit down   the Oval Office and you go I want to know every  clandestine mission going on in the world today   well that's Vladimir Putin what but the difference  is he could operationalize everything he had   learned in the KGB and then everything that the  KGB never completed he was now in a position to   bring that into the Russian Federation and  to carry out his strategy and the strategy   you describe is reflected in everything from  supporting the likes of right-wing nationalist   parties across Europe recruiting kleptocrat  businessmen in Russia to go forth into the   west and co-opt people cyber invasions or cyber  warfare in Georgia or in Ukraine and military   activity in Ukraine is this a grand methodical  plan or opportunistic behavior I it started as   opportunistic behavior you have to understand this  is a this was a hardcore Soviet follower I mean he   believed in the mission of the KGB there's a  there's a there's a story by Masha Gessen who   wrote his biography where as a young kid I think  it was like 12 or 13 years old he went to an open   house of the KGB and he said I want to be a KGB  officer and of course they laughed at him and   he said well how do I do it and they said go to  school study hard go to university get a degree   in law and then come back and apply that's exactly  what all the boxes and he was recruited became a   middle level officer in Europe and that's where  he carried out his activities but then his world   crashed around him but you have to understand  Russia did not you know the Soviet Union   disappeared as a as a political organization but  Russians didn't change the only thing that changes   they now had access to goods from the West they  could make money and everything there that would   belong to the collective which was everything  from coffee cups you know to orchids belong to the   state Vladimir Putin's job when he returned to st.  Petersburg was to help liquidate that state which   meant steal whatever cash it out sell it to people  in the West take your illicit billions and then go   buy apartments in Monaco and buy a modern in New  York City I would argue reading your books you   think something did change though which is there  was created some disillusionment with what the   Soviet Union had been but an enormous resentment  for the victory dance the West was carrying out as   if now Russia should become a capitalist State  you're absolutely right a lot of people you   remember when the Soviet Union fell they had the  mini coup d'etat where they were trying to take   back that you know these these old or hardcore  Soviets we're trying to take back the government   from Yeltsin and then later on when that that all  failed and we saw Russia started having newspapers   television channels were really big consumers of  the West you know people started thinking they   were becoming a flood a real democracy and what  they were becoming was confused because they have   their own beliefs they had prior to the Soviet  Union centuries of of being led by these autocrats   and in fact Tsar Nicholas the first had a national  motto of Orthodoxy with the Russian orthodoxy   church orthodoxy nationalism autocracy and that  was a relatively good guiding principle that   of course was you know literally killed by the  Soviet Union transposes very well to a number of   the right-wing sherman's he's supporting it here  in the US yeah but Putin was developing his own   belief of how should this new country that he was  now taking charge of how should it develop what is   it what is their identity and I think he found a  lot of comfort in in Tsar Nicholas his motto but I   think he added another factor because many people  in Russia were getting insanely rich insanely rich   and anyone who would go along with with Putin  and Yeltsin at that time could keep their money   but when he became president he realized he had to  be a real strong man leader and anyone who crossed   him the easiest thing to do was to act like the  Soviets you nationalized their assets you seize   them and you had other oligarchs super-rich buy  them out and get rid of them to the point where   no one was making real you know billions in Russia  without his say-so right but more importantly he   made sure that every oligarch had a KGB or FSB  officer form their staff he almost it's almost   as if he jailed quartic offski to show he one  outlier what would happen well he absolutely   did and ceased all of his assets yeah I mean and  everyone else got the message this is how he took   over the city of st. Petersburg when he was up  and coming how did he bring he bought the Mafia   under control by promising them their cut and when  they did got out of line he used FSB or KGB assets   to bring them into line in the Russians they knew  who the KGB were even if you're a mafioso you know   that you were gonna disappear end up in a furnace  or turn into a millstone so literally those were   the Punisher choices so there is this person in  this historical situation with these antecedents   let's sharpen the focus what has he been doing  in the West specifically in the US into 2016 and   you believe now right yeah well I think that  they found their footing and they found their   footing in the early 2000s when Putin realized  that he believed in and everyone there believed   in orthodoxy nationalism autocracy and he added  oligarchy and he wasn't going to be Peter the   Great he was not going to be bringing the West of  Russia his philosophers and friends realized that   Russia needed to make itself great again right  and to do that if that sounds familiar yeah it's   available at the gift shop it isn't an original  phrase and neither is draining the swamp which   came from a philosopher of Putin's Alexander  dug-in but Putin realized that and to also   realized they could actually achieve a strategic  goal with by being part of the consumer world and   having modern technology at their fingertips  that they could never have achieved under the   Soviet Union which is make Russia a strategic  competitor or an equal on par with the United   States even though they have the gross domestic  product of Italy right right Russia is not a rich   nation it's a nation of rich in three things oil  and gas atomic bombs in the sale of weapons and   so how do you do that well it's simple you bring  the West down and you step on them and you use   them to propel yourself up but back in the old  days and again I have to go back to the Soviet   Union they viewed the West as corrupt deity  that was holding back the world and so for   him he realized the West was like the Soviet he  was like Russia fundamentally conservative or at   least that's what he saw an ass and that Russia  were conservatives and now Orthodox conservatives   and so they started using the methodologies of  Russian intelligence to identify who their allies   in the West would could be that would naturally  support them well into this scenario the near or   effective collapse of the world financial system  in 2008 and the miseries ation of millions of   people who see this amorphous international  force committing this failure and receiving   no punishment plays perfectly absolutely into  where he wants to go you're absolutely right   and then you see that the collapse of the global  markets which took a lot of their money but you   also have a nation that one the average person  in Russia other than that they could now buy   Nutella okay didn't really improve you know I've  had you know I haven't been to Russia our family   members that have and are from there and they say  it's essentially a trailer park with atomic bombs   now I know a lot of people will contend with that  but for the average Russian things did not change   other than the fact they could get Toyota Corollas  not lattice but in the West it was devastated in   the West it was devastating but Russia itself  had to put you know you have to understand they   would see this global transformation and say  how can we capitalize from that that's a spy's   way of thinking right how can we use this and  they say look good who are out there who could   be our natural allies and that was the European  initially the European conservative parties and   many of those parties were untouchable I mean  you know the the the the Austrian Freedom Party   created in 1952 by two ex-nazis who had served  in World War two hold and Dawn and that's right   Golden Dawn in Greece all these organizations  that were fascist conservative button on the   borderline neo-nazi if not open Nazi these groups  unlike the way the Soviet Union backed the leftist   West and terrorist groups like you know Red Army  Faction and actual indirect in France they saw   the conservative movement as closer to them  ideologically and they started funding these   organizations and Europe conservatism in Europe  right now is fundamentally bought and paid for by   Moscow marine lepen who went again in dollar alone  actually 15 million euros pardon me and you know   there's there's a joke after she lost the French  elections last year where her job she said very   clearly she is aligned with Putin and her job was  to break up the European Union and get France out   of NATO so one person being backed by Moscow could  literally up and fifty percent of everything that   occurred since the end of World War two all of  which is a preamble to 2016 here right so what   happens there what happens there is it really  is Donald Trump in all this you know I know that   there's been some recent reporting where people  assert that you know Donald Trump was co-opted in   the 80s and turned into a Russian asset but a lot  of people don't use these terms of art correctly   I think very early on when Russia was liquidating  all those billions and hiding their money in real   estate all around the world that Donald Trump  became a useful idiot and now you you think   back to the Soviet Union terms it was those guys  who believed in the ideology no a useful idiot is   a person who will do things that benefit you  because it benefits them and they don't care   what your ideology is and selling real estate to  Russians around New York City in Florida was was   was their baby their pathologically incurious  that's a positive that's where absolutely not   just in curious yeah you're a best men off the  intelligence officer who talked about the target   of KGB recruitment was always a narcissist who  was insatiable in terms of greed and now I'm not   saying that that was a framework but surprisingly  someone fit that mold and those kind of people   you monitor and we found that as far back as the  early 1980s Czech intelligence the Czech Republic   is now the Czech Republic checklist Avakian  intelligence for the KGB had been monitoring   Donald Trump who was married to Ivanka Trump and  had been sending back regular reports and they are   now on the Internet those reports but over time  Donald Trump was interested in doing business   with Russia which he saw I guess as this bastion  of you know future money natural resources grand   hotels and hot chicks and all of that would  come so to be true hmm so in some ways this   is worse than no collusion in a way it's it's no  you're positing that there's a kind of that Putin   created this environment abetted by Manta Ford who  had worked in Ukraine on pro-putin cases and you   know was funded by an oligarch came to the States  and created an effect Trump's base and then Steve   Bannon supercharges it and Trump thinks he created  Trump space and he adores getting cheered by Trump   space yeah but you're really you're really saying  this was created by Russians I don't think that   he they created his base I think they co-opted his  base okay and let me again step back just a little   bit into histories it's about ten years or so  while Russia was finding its footing as the center   of conservatism in the east you might recall that  a lot of people certainly once Barack Obama was   elected and you know in in 2008 were saying that  Russia was more of a Christian conservative nation   than the United States there are politicians on  record who have said Vladimir Putin is a stronger   leader than Barack Obama will ever be and they  saw the election of rock obama as this cultural   an Emma a breakdown which they saw on par with  electing Osama bin Laden as president in the   United States and I literally have had people say  that to me that he was no better than a sama bin   laden with regards to running the United States  when you have a mindset like that it's very hard   to get a person crowbarred out of that mindset  and so the Russians saw this but like all good   James Bond villains they also saw that having this  enormous pool of insane amounts of money could buy   any one and if you recall back to those old films  all right you know Hans Ernest Blofeld you know   we had a giant yes a million dollars right he  had a giant bill you know million dollar yacht   he had you know bikini clad women everywhere  he controlled the global Underground's and all   of those things it's ridiculous but the Russian  oligarch II literally reflects that character and   that money was going everywhere and it had created  a global elite that were spending money wildly   around the world and anyone who was anyone wanted  to be part of that scene wanted to go to Ibiza   with 65 year old guys and hang out on a hundred  million dollar yacht right and so with that you   saw American conservatives saw their money and  their strength of an autocratic leader and Putin's   own fixings where he made the image that he was  now the protector of the Russian Orthodox Church   right because when he became director of FSB the  first thing he did was renovate the church next   door to their headquarters in torture Center on  labiancas Square and so American conservatives   starting with the fringe started seeing Russia as  a center of Christian of Christian conservatism   and then Russia started feeding them that image  and starting with organizations like the National   Organization of marriage and extremist group I  was listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center   as a hate group and they started carrying out a  co-option where they were using American hatred   of Islam on the extreme right as their Avenue  in and they started holding these protection   of Christianity conferences to the point where  now Franklin Graham attends these every year   you know and to a certain extent Christian  evangelicals saw Russia as a natural ally in   this global clash of civilizations against Islam  in its entirety and the Russians use that to wedge   their way into American conservatism that in  guns it's a very compelling thesis and Trump   becomes the spokesman for this Trump becomes  elected there's a little cyber activity that   helps him out as well he is now the president now  you're an intelligence analyst by training and I'm   going to assume it's a little bit like journalism  at its best which is you build the thesis you try   and put all the facts together and see what is  an effective story that matches this and then   if you're really responsible you wonder if you're  wrong sure you know that's the pleasure of it and   the duty of it it's to wonder if you're wrong what  was what makes you what have you traveled through   that makes you think you might be wrong and what  leaves you confident that you're right well this   is the difference between journalists and spies  we generally don't think we're wrong at the end Highschool you a little bit on journalism Frank  no you say don't either see you think you're   wrong we know we're not okay so very solid because  they've been so many successes well well usually   those successes are but those surface in sumers  of information who never take our advice right   iraq chemical weapons for example i'm learning a  lot about your business the intelligence community   did not say that they had what george bush said  okay so all of that being said what we generally   do is we will line up the numbers and it's a very  impure goal community I mean we don't like people   manipulating what we give them it is what it  is you know and as the old model you know from   the Bible says the truth so you know set you  free after we have analyzed it done an imagery   analysis of it put signals intelligence onto  it and have actually got a copy of their plans   and orders then the truth will set you free mmm  okay that's the difference between a journalist   so and then we try to kill somebody at the end  of that you know in fact you will have an hour   but yeah so that being said that's why we came to  the community and myself my previous book plot to   hack America on the exact same day turned in the  exact same analysis of the Russian hacking right   it could only be this it now can we say we have  doubts yes and we put those doubts in there and   we quantify them are they fifty percent are the  medium confidence or low confidence the community   came out with high confidence we kill people with  drones on high confidence doubt is high confidence   that this occurred and we don't play games with  that and what we expect is the consumer to now   use it in the defense of the United States I think  doubt is absolutely necessary if you're gonna take   reality seriously you never know everything but  you would leave your case about Putin in the West   and the actions of Trump in a state of confidence  high confidence near certainty where would you put   this I personally would put it at very high  confidence okay and very high confidence is   just not a rating that we use very often that  means that we have a copy of your plans let me   just go straight to it then you sensitive types  cover your ears are we screwed we're so screwed there's a bar after the show but be of good faith  I mean what do you expect the Mueller report the   indictments so far and possibly in the future to  do to this situation well let me first care two   eyes I was screwing this as we would probably  state of screwed that's right well er Bart we   are at a point where we're the people who are  put into play what they want done for their   own personal use for their family use and for  a strategic adversary who understands that they   can now realign the world and we are literally  today certainly what is Wednesday when the NATO   conference you are going to see the indicators of  the realignment of the world where the poles will   move away from the Atlantic Alliance Washington to  the european capital you've already had the german   foreign minister say we got to work on Plan B yeah  well the plan B is NATO without America and Donald   Trump is I think to be followed by a tete-a-tete  between Putin and Trump yeah well I mean he's got   to go get counseling after that so I'm hey your  words not mine no I mean he's got to go in and   report in to the boss and and see how things are  going and I don't say that lightly that's exam no   what the psychology is behind Vladimir Putin and  Donald Trump's relationship but that relationship   is a mentor confidant relationship anyone in US  intelligence or under the personal responsibility   program for atomic weapons would have already been  dragged in polygraphed multiple times and been   considered a potential asset of a foreign agent  agency Donald Trump was elected and this is part   of the beauty of the Russian plan if you want to  change the polls in the West the Communists tried   to rig elections but they did it with printing  presses and leaflets it just didn't work now   you can literally frame the mindset of an entire  nation and they have operational doctrine on how   to do that in information warfare to where you  think eliminating your constitution by vote is a   good idea you destroy democracy by using democracy  it's been oral has been the test bed for this   hmm it has been done before I do want to end on a  more positive note about how we might awaken from   this nightmare but we have a healthy inventory of  excellent questions from the audience you probably   are still in touch with your old colleagues has  the quality of the intelligence we're getting   from our allies changed has it degraded do they no  longer trust and work with us the same way well I   don't know I wouldn't know at that level that's  that's a John Brennan kind of quest right who's   briefed regularly and he would they trust us the  same way though I think that at a tactical level   operating between Defense Department and at the  day-to-day level of sharing information about   terrorism and general activities as part of our  NATO treaties yes they treat us the same way now   national level intelligence between national  leaders where Emmanuel macron may have some   information about Vladimir Putin I don't think  that they would share that at all they look out   for their national interest Wow so as a long-term  psyops guy how does one deal huh I dabbled a bit   how does one counter a bully how does one deal  with the kind of attacks a person like this   presents which person food ok Donald Trump our  president ok and his Twitter account is sigh up   s-- doesn't is not a national internal asset right  right that's a you know psychology yeah so that's   not the sort of thing that you would find people  in the intelligence community doing but you know   the FBI has an entire branch of that all of whom  are at the disposal of the special counsel so this   being said you have a national leader that has  now been duly elected and there was an election   and the result did come out the way it came out  now the factors that came that are a completely   different animal we have to understand that the  people who are supporting him that is their base   argument that they have used the legitimate  electoral process to choose a leader and the   apathy of 50% of the republic and the strength  of the other side which got three million almost   three million more votes did not get those votes  in the three precincts where 77,000 more people   elected him and that's just too bad that's a  reality no well that's the reality right so what   do you do well it's simple you have to do better  elections now it sounds simple not really but let   me tell you something that that I understand  that Vladimir Putin may have given it advice   to the White House I had this joke in the book  that there's a rat in the White House and rats   stood for Russian advisory team because Donald  Trump appears to literally have the checklist of   Vladimir Putin and how to solidify a nation into  autocracy and this war on law-enforcement the war   on intelligence definitely the war on the media  trying to buy and co-opt the media those things   are real and they are happening and they will  undermine American you know our constitutional   republic but more importantly he understands that  the kind of people he can mobilize to come out   they don't care about the end result they care  about what he says they should care about and   the thinking electorate right can you you know  you're sort of like the population in the movie   idiocracy right you get out populated well in  this terms you've got out gamed and what they   are definitely afraid of is a backlash to that a  national mobilization of the people who voted in   the 2016 election and the people who didn't vote  in the 2016 election 120 million people didn't   vote who were eligible to vote what if we brought  one additional person to the polls this November   in the way that we voted in 2016 well there  would be more than a landslide the nation would   recalibrate itself to the actual numbers that  you see reflected in opinion right it's almost   like a reading poster a picture of Putin saying I  want you to be apathetic yes absolutely and they   do all of these nefarious activities I want out  on the Internet I have a good friend of mine on   the internet who's a well-known Twitter author and  she wrote today she feels she feels beaten and she   feels rundown and I have to constantly say look  this games only gonna get better start investing   in popcorn stocks because what is coming isn't is  a point in the nation's history which will truly   be historic you are all living in history you're  talking about the afternoon of the Muller releases   his report well I feel something like it or  something like it and it may not be the report it   may be the arrest I made it for that report a some  sort of things which give you an indicator as to   what kind of freight train is coming you know I've  heard from people who know robert muller and one   of the little anecdotes they say is robert muller  has one hobby and that is putting people in prison now you know I also hear from there on your side  you know well I think they're on America's side   right all right and but now the bad news we are  facing I believe an existential crisis I was born   and raised in Philadelphia I would literally sit  behind Independence Hall when I felt depressed   and think about what these people did to give  me a young african-american kid my family is   served in every war since the Civil War because  we believe in this American experiment and it   is unfortunately now at 243 years we're going  back to the experiment stage to the point where   it could flame out and transition to autocracy oh  that's gonna die of cynicism yeah who would have   thought that you know well whoever made the movie  idiocracy right Mike judge okay another question   from the audience do you feel the electoral  system which is highly networked is still safe   or do you feel it's been horribly compromised no  I think voting machine you know voting machines   in the electoral process at the street level is  so diverse a foreign adversary couldn't hack it   so here's just some precincts use paper ballots  some use punch ballots some use electronic ballots   where you really and and this is where we saw the  Russians playing around where you really can play   with things it's through voter suppression by  changing the fundamental information on your   voter registration and that of course so is  chaos as well 20 to 25 states were scanned by   GRU Russian military intelligence and their voter  registration databases were hacked or penetrated   in some way even though there's a lot of denial  about that if you were to put a program in there   changed everybody's street address by one digit on  Election Day you might get a lot of people who can   correct that but you would suppress millions  of votes so let's say the Russians want to do   at this year for fun okay but you know what they  would do is down with them especially if it look   like a tsunami year I would do two Republicans  because then you would create the groundswell   for civil war when they lose an election they  thought they should have won and some activity   occurs and all of Donald Trump's rantings about  it was Democrats in collusion with Russia could   be played as a form of mischief that would be  the groundswell that would be actually grounds   for a lot of action on the street we mentioned  France briefly but the attempt there was foiled   if you will and one of the audience members asks  what happened there that made it largely repelled   compared to the 2016 US election interesting  interesting story about the French elections in   the run-up to the French elections the Russians  we believe that the Russians had carried out a   hacking very similar to the one done at the DNC  and had taken material from Emmanuel macron party   servers and had put that information on the dark  web where it was quote-unquote found by American   alt-right activists surprisingly one of them was  a now former US Navy Cryptologic officer with a   top-secret SDI security clearance and who was also  a big pizza gate scandal just you know Alec this   is Alex Jones world people but they quote-unquote  found this data and then created a link on Twitter   macron leaks the day before the French elections  two things occurred which forwarded this plan   number one the French aren't stupid okay they saw  the hacking of the Democratic National Committee   and they know Watergate when they see it yeah so  working wearing a precedent did help yeah did they   working with French intelligence and the National  Security Agency our Cryptologic in cyber defenders   they set a trap for the Russians by giving them  a server that had nothing really on it except   material they put on it that they expected to be  stolen and that information was essentially every   one of the same you know bulletins that they had  put out nothing salacious but they thought whoever   stole it thought it would be like America and all  you had to say was the word emails and everybody   would do it and again American alt writers created  the Twitter feed to disperse that the second thing   is France has a blackout in in the days leading  up to the election and no election related news   can go on the on the web on the television or on  to radio and so after the election when macron   leagues fizzled people realized through actually  Admiral Rogers made the announcement along with   the French that the National Security Agency had  set up the people that had stolen this information   and that everything in there was false and that  the or not false but was was part of an abate for   an ambush and then we they started checking  to see if the material that was about to be   released or was being released was identical  to the material that they had put in there so   the trap was sprung and it just shows though the  link between Russian intelligence people who call   themselves journalists and then American activists  of the alt-right who will try to interfere with   a foreign election they are now as I like to say  from the old Captain America movies they are like   the nefarious organization Hydra right who cut one  head off to pop up and their motto is hail Hydra   or failed Trump whatever what they may have lost  but they learned to and they'll try a different   thing they did there is an interesting and I  think valid equivalence question here mmm okay   the Russians messed with our election they messed  with the French election the US has a unfortunate   history of affecting other countries elections  suppressing the Communists in Italy installing   government's in Guatemala going back to the 50s  Mossadegh in right we could go on there's a rich   list so haven't we done it too you know I get  this question a lot and they go home and you   all new intelligence guys or you can't be trusted  well you know what we can't account for American   history but every one of those activities  was exposed by our system of government and   we found look let's be honest when the Church  Committee hearings were were done in the 1970s   we found agencies completely out of control with  zero accountability to the US government and   some of those activities were very nefarious  overthrowing regimes assassinating people or   at least having the potential to assassinate  our enemies that was all brought under control   after the 1970s do we influence elections yes we  influence elections but we influence elections   through two major nonprofits that go out and  do good work you know then I believe it's the   National Republican Association and the National  Democratic Association which works with activists   in these countries to strengthen their elections  and strengthen their political party systems   that's good an American democracy is fundamentally  good and we eliminate the players what we don't do   is go to Los Cruces and find the most virulent  of nerve agents ever created in the history of   America and go around and poison people in our  allies nations we don't do that we don't come   in and fundamentally choose a person and decide  that that person's going to be our candidate and   then craft a meta-narrative around an election  and then convince the American public that that   person is our choice and he's the one that's  going to help things so that he can dismantle   the entirety of the NATO alliance since 1949 we  don't do that now are we better than them yes   we're better than them I'm just bang yeah let's  make a value judgment we're better I'm yeah well   you know we aren't whackin people right and left  rewarding kleptocrats now I'm not sure we're in   total look we are not killing journalists we are  not killing our citizens we are not going around   the world and carrying out chemical weapons  terrorist attacks do we project power in such   a way that people can mistake that as something  similar yes we like to drop bombs but usually we   tried to drop bombs for good reasons what we don't  do is we don't go out and back strong men today I   won't say that that was never done in American  history who mass murder half a million of their   own citizens and then we don't try to re-engineer  the poles of of the world except that now I have   a president that which has abandoned democracy who  has removed strengthening and fostering democracy   from the from the mission statement of the State  Department all right for crisis crying out loud   Oh poor Thomas Jefferson he is just rolling over  in his grave so all of these things are being done   in our name and they view that the people our  administration views the people that did these   things to our fundamental principles flawed as  they are our men or just whatever you know they   do not care because they have harnessed power to  win power at all costs and I think Robert Muller   is on the hunt to find those people who have  have fundamentally corrupted American dupe the   American electoral process for their own personal  goals problem is there's no do-overs written in   the Constitution you're going to have to deal with  whatever comes out of this and I think there will   be a lot of people who will be very reluctant  to yield power yeah it's almost as if the what   happens after the reveal will be more grueling  than the reveal itself yeah because to cleanse   the system a lot of people are gonna have to admit  they're wrong this is not gonna you know it's not   gonna be like the the 37 percent 27 percent that  back Nixon after Watergate this is I mean we have   people out there who I see it on Twitter my family  has received a lot of death threats in the last   year and there are people out there who think  the Second Amendment is their Amendment their   their Amendment their right their ability to  resolve differences in political opinion that   is where we are now the last time people talk  like that was the civil war I think there's also   something else going on which is insidious and I  love your guidance on what we might do about it   you could blame post-modernism you could blame the  internet you could blame Putin but there is this   mentality that you have your truth and I have  my truth this is a situation list environment   Trump speaks for me he's he is a truth even when  he lies he's telling the truth yes he's sticking   it to people and that's a form of truth that anger  is authentic and how do we get away from that and   back to a commonly agreed reality I won't say you  just Dutch no no okay a lot of people won't know   if there's a tape let me answer that question no  the horribleness of your question it's something   that we should all ponder for I think that's the  true existential reality of where we are how do   we come back to a commonly agreed reality in which  we can practice democracy I pray that it will that   whatever comes out of the the the the special  counsels investigation and I've said this on   national television and Chris Matthews who I love  I actually struck silent for one moment when I   said a year ago this nation will enter a Benedict  Arnold moment and I believe what do you mean by   that I believe that there are people the initial  premised the initial reason this investigation   started was because we had found American citizens  through our Allied intelligence agencies in our   national security apparatus who had been in  direct and continuous communication and contact   with foreign intelligence agencies in order to  engineer an outcome on this election and I believe   that everyone involved in this investigation no  matter how you slice it Republican Democrat I was   a Republican most of my life they are patriots  they go to work and they walk into the bureau   or they walk by the statue of Nathan Hale over at  the agency or the wall of honor at this at the NSA   selfishly to keep you safe but more importantly  to uphold the one principle we all hold deeply   in our heart and that's our Constitution and if  they find Americans are working to undermine the   Constitution they will not waver in calling  that out and I think we all have to embrace   whatever the outcome of this of this is how do we  re engineer the people who will not believe that   you have to bring them back to - to the founding  principle you have to call them as fellow Patriots   to say listen you know Washington wouldn't have  stood for this Jefferson wouldn't have stood for   this Hamilton out and Lincoln none of these people  would ever have sided with the ex-director of the   KGB alright you're just going to have it will just  be a cathartic moment that may end in violence in   some quarters gonna say you know people don't  change their minds like that on a beautiful day   in the hot Sun with a full belly no it's it's  in a desperate moment that they change their   minds like that well and even worse you have 50%  of the country that has to go to work and have   kids and and go to Walmart and they don't care  and they've I had someone just recently a young   gentleman and aloes who was working there say  I'm sick of this Russia stuff I'm sick of it and   I said you're gonna be sick of it when we find  that people were actually working with another   country maybe that won't happen maybe there's God  and he will say listen we're gonna keep this all   together and it's not as bad as it seems and the  people who were working with them get get nailed   and go to jail because Robert Muller likes that  hobby hmm so but on the other hand I think a lot   of people who have been stopped their faith behind  Donald Trump's ability to tell them anything and   everything and that every lie from his mouth now  documented about 3300 per year is the truth you   can't run this nation as a liar you can't run the  the fundamental guardrails of this country will   bring you back and one way or another the truth  will out and we have to be there to defend and   stand tall and shout that truth when it comes  when it becomes clear and I would stay ready   stay brave thank you stay ready stay brave by  the way I wasn't kidding and I'm gonna stick my   neck out here you four or five people out there  I sorry I don't think you know if there's a tape   I will say this and I wrote a small section of my  analysis about Donald Trump's behavior there's an   entire chapter in the book called a treasonous  aspect hmm where I or alert spoiler alert there   could be a tape well no I don't know but there's  something yeah look they're like basic psychology   101 here right go find a freshman and and ask  him about this people are motivated by one of   two things a reward or a punishment hmm you have  to ask yourself what does this president see in   Vladimir Putin and him going out on a Ledge at  from the highest of all Heights in the history   of the United States to think I will cover for  this man and his activities and everything he   has done to the point where I will compliment him  and insult every one of America's traditional and   very nice allies in Montana last week he said he  criticized John McCain made fun of George HW Bush   and nonagenarian former president and sighs  NATO and then said there's nothing to worry   about about Putin yeah I even go there yeah the  cage Montana he goes the KGB he's fine he was   KGB he's fine it's like that's like a towel you  know I don't operon can public cards be assigned   just say KGB and see what he does this is where  I mean you know when I was in the military I was   an instructor at the at the Navy survival evasion  resistance and escape school and I ran a terrorist   and hostage survival program and you know people  talk about Stockholm Syndrome Stockholm Syndrome   is a defensive reaction to the captivity of being  a hostage okay this is not Stockholm Syndrome   these people are willfully going into this and  only someone who's an expert in cults could could   explain why they will accept any lie anything that  even appears to be no matter how detached from the   truth in reality it is it is now theirs and they  embrace it I think that you man if when you live   in a world where people can manufacture realities  and other people will cheer it gets a lot easier   well you know the Russians have created these  meta-narratives yeah that Donald Trump is absorbed   when he went to that two-hour meeting with the  Russian oligarchs in 2013 at the Nobu restaurant   he came out spouting anti-nato anti European  Union anti-globalization you know he actually   says things refers to people as globalist as an  insult I mean we created globalism with world war   ii dropping spam all around the world American  consumer goods and madmen and all that stuff   these people stared of living wet up yeah around  the world that's really great they they have just   clawed glommed onto these catchphrases they don't  understand Russia they used the phrase Atlantis   hmm to be the people who believe in the Washington  European alliance that is a guess kept the world   safe we well kept us from a world war since World  War two we are going through a an unreality to a   certain extent has been manufactured and you are  looking at the finest product the Soviet Union   had created and just couldn't execute because the  speed of transmitting data and wasn't perfected   until really social mass social media came in  and created of a viral vector for information   framework that is there an unnatural construct  so that you can surround yourself in and feel   good they can't make cars anybody wants to buy  they can't make soda pop or movies or anything   else that export very well but cynicism they  got that one yeah and you know the funny thing   is people say well Malcolm that's fascinating  and it sounds crazy and I say yeah well you   know this was written down by the Russians they  don't just you know they have formulated this   creating meta-narratives and new realities for  you to absorb through social media into their   strategic military doctrine and I actually have  a quote here from a book called a Ukrainian study   called fog of war Russian strategy of deception in  the conflict in the Ukraine and it says the stages   of shaping a perception management campaign around  an opponent after applying force or in peacetime a   lack of force can be achieved in four major stages  one by assisting the opponent's formulation of   an appreciation of the initial situation so in  other words they will give you their opinion of   how the world is let's say Russia justifiably  invaded Crimea because everybody there speaks   Russian does that sound familiar yeah because the  President of the United States just a couple of   weeks ago when trapped with a question pulled out  of his mind on the fly that statement those words   were the official policy of the Kremlin to justify  that invasion it was put into his head in meetings   with Russians and when caught because he's not  a great deep thinker that initial formulation   popped to the top of his head and he let it come  out of his mouths number two shaping an opponent's   objectives number three shaping the opponent's  decision-making algorithm and four by the the   choice of the decision-making moment in other  words when you create a framework of information   around your opponent no matter what he does go  left go right if you can get into his initial   decision-making chain like running for president  of the United States which we know now due to   Constantin recall the the owner of channel one  in Russia Putin's Putin's uh propagandist Donald   Trump tweeted to him in 2012 that he that he  thinks that he should run for president and recall   actually deemed him and you know as you guys know  on Twitter you have to be friends yeah to direct   message each other he said how can we and Russia  help you that occurred the night that MIT Romney   lost the Barack Obama one week later he organized  make America great again packed sup pac political   action committee this did not happen in 2015 this  was decided in 2012 one year later the Russian   internet research agency is established Donald  Trump is meeting with the Russian oligarchs and   again they shaped his decision-making algorithm  everything from there it appeared Russians knew   Donald Trump was running for president to the  point where he was telling people Oh Donald if   you know who ha you would make a great president  and he would drop these hints America didn't   know till 2015 three years later they created his  framework he is operating within it and that's why   he's gonna go to the NATO summit at the least  he might be neutral at the worst he may start   thinking that America needs to start breaking  things up and Moscow would be quite pleased and   there are but there are numerous actors around him  sure you could count as children whatever but yeah   Senators Congressmen who have helped him people  like manna fort and Cohen what is motivating them   I mean there is many reasons it may just be  money it may be there at this point they're   afraid of getting whacked like people in the UK  or people and the steel people who's contributed   steel report were what do you think is that why  would a senator presumably a patriotic individual   you know sign off on this it's a really good  question because early on last year when I was   having discussions with some of my peers and after  I had written plot to hack America which was the   the prequel to the plot destroy democracy you know  you have to ask yourself why would Jeff Sessions   have meetings with the Russians that he would lie  about hmm no lie when confronted he would say that   never happened that's not not got a picture of  yeah well that's not co-option by an intelligence   agency that's a try that's a personal choice and  in this world if there's any one thing I know and   you have to remember I worked at the National  Security Agency and I'll tell you a little spy   story we had a guy who worked at NSA who sold  out a multi-billion dollar special operation for   thirty six thousand dollars thirty six thousand  dollars to the point where one of the floors had   to be completely torn apart and rearranged cuz the  Russians knew everything about it they knew every   workstation who worked there all of us got read  polygraphed so any guy for the they gave him a   Class C Mercedes yeah or something like low-end  Lexus utterly amazing what people will sell   they're kind of mispriced himself didn't he yeah  well and he wanted to pay you know his taxes so   there is if let me just quote one of the greatest  philosophers in the world and that's the band ABBA   money money money must be funny in a rich  man's world that is the only thing that in   our community we can explain it's not ideology  it's not about bringing together a great arc   of American conservative Christianity and Russian  conservative Christianity though there are people   who back that it is not about fulfilling Samuel  Huntington's and Osama bin Laden's clash of   civilizations between Islam and Christian world  there are some people who believe in that there   has to be a pot of money out there that is so  big that people would think I will get through   my time in this administration use my time in this  administration and go out and collect my reward   let's call it could be and it's close buddy power  well I mean we're talking about money that exceeds   power because it now manipulates nations yeah you  know Bond villains stuff whoa let me we have time   for one more questions right I wish we had more  let me ask about a hundred years ago this Irish   writer said history is a nightmare from which I am  trying to awake you're saying history is something   we need to wake up back into the nightmare is  the the absence of history or an unwillingness   to admit history how are we going to do that how  are you personally going to do that how should   people in this room do that what can we say to  people who don't believe this is going on what   should we do you know I fundamentally think that  we all to a certain extent it's certainly any way   anyone who's listening to this and who's in  this room that we are all lovers of history   because and and that the average person out there  who believes in the 4th of July and you know the   flags and the parades and you know this quotes  the star-spangled banner no but they understand   the the fabric that we come from they understand  the the clay that molded this nation and I think   that we have to bring them back to that I get I  argue all the time online and and I get people   who confront me all the time and they're like well  them truck jump Trump and I go okay awesome you   know and they go well Barack Obama was blah blah  blah and I'll say but he wasn't backed by the ex   director of the KGB he and they and then I have to  explain what the KGB is so no really we are in a   period of American history where it is time for  us all to embrace the the core precepts of what   this nation was built on we are living history I  have anybody here seen Hamilton the musical that   is a motivating weapon system I will tell you if I  had to use a psychological operations tool I would   make Hamilton into a movie today right lin-manuel  Miranda it's forget about the $500 tickets and I   would make sure that it was dispersed all across  the nation for free to understand just what the   stakes were where I grew up in Philadelphia  when I go to fifth and chestnut and I feel   sad about what's happening I understand that I  am the legacy defender both which I did with my   life and my family's life and my father's life my  niece was in combat off of Yemen last year against   Iranian anti-shipping missiles we defend this and  we believe that this fundamental foundation of   this nation was built on the lives in the risk to  the lives and the treasure of the men that walked   into the building that would be to my right at  Independence Square and said we could die from   doing what we're about to do right now we are at a  point in American history where I think we are all   going to have to make that decision to defend this  and I say in my book we have to adopt the motto of   the United States Army this I will defend now you  may not it's but you're not gonna be defending it   at Whole Foods okay there's not gonna be a civil  war per se but we are in an ideological war where   half the country is apathetic one-third of it  really are misguided Vlad wants you to be cynical   yeah Vladimir Putin wants you to be cynical but  the fabric of America is under attack and now is   the time for each of you to embrace that feeling  that you are within history history has its eyes   on you because as I quoted from Hamilton which I  do a lot and the last epilogue of my book there's   that scene where George Washington comes on the  scene in and Hamilton is waiting for his hero   and Washington's words are we are outgunned out  and outnumbered out planned we've got to make   an all-out stand and that's where we are we are  outgunned they have done something which has never   been done in the history of the United States they  have called into question whether we even believe   what we are or who we are are you going to take  that lying down or are you going to mobilize and   stand for it I know what my choice is I will risk  my family my life and my treasure for this nation   I tend to like to end on an optimistic note but  I have never seen it framed as a political act   as an existential act and as a somewhat subversive  act against the dominant paradigm I really thank   you for that our thanks to Malcom Nance author  of his new book the plot to destroy democracy you say your book title again so people get it  the plot to destroy democracy how Putin in his   spies are undermining America and dismantling  the West thank you for joining us this evening   my pleasure our mind or to our audience here that  Malcolm will be signing books outside in just a   minute so make sure you pick up a copy on the  way out I'm Quentin Hardy and now this meeting   of the Commonwealth Club the place where you  are in the know is adjourned that was fantastic

Channel: Commonwealth Club World Affairs of California

Views: 157,083

Keywords: Malcolm Nance, Russia, Destroying Democracy, Vladimir Putin, San Francisco, Commonwealth Club

Id: QnefEDB8ig4

Length: 70min 31sec (4231 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 11 2018