SIDE. >> YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE A COMEBACK AND I'LL BE WITH YOU SIDE BY SIDE. EVEN AS DONALD TRUMP REFUSES TO GIVE STRAIGHT ANSWERS ABOUT WHERE HE STANDS ON THINGS LIKE A NATIONAL ABORTION BAN OR CONTRACEPTION, CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN GROUPS UNDERSTAND WHAT TRUMP WILL DO FOR THEM. IT'S NOT THAT MUCH OF A MYSTERY. AND PART OF THEIR CONFIDENCE HERE THAT AN EXTREME CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST AGENDA IS WITHIN THEIR GRASP, PART OF THEIR CONFIDENCE IS BECAUSE THESE GROUPS DON'T HAVE TO RELY ON JUST TRUMP ALONE. THEY CAN COUNT ON TRUMP'S MOST POWERFUL ALLY IN THE FIGHT FOR CHRISTIAN DOMINION, THE CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY OF ON THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT. JUST THIS WEEK WE HEARD SUPREME COURT JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO TELL A PROGRESSIVE ACTIVIST THAT HE BELIEVES WE NEED TO RETURN AMERICA TO A PLACE OF GODLINESS. AS ELIZABETH AND LISA WRITE IN A NEW ANALYSIS FOR THE NEW YORK TIME, WHILE JUSTICE ALITO IS HARDLY OPENLY CHAMPIONING THESE VIEWS, HE IS EMBRACING LANGUAGE AND SYMBOLISM THAT LINE UP WITH A MUCH BROADER MOVEMENT PUSHING BACK AGAINST THE DECLINING POWER OF CHRISTIANITY AS A MAJORITY RELIGION IN AMERICA. THE MOVEMENT'S RISE HAS BEEN EVIDENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY SINCE MR. TRUMP LOST RE-ELECTION IN 2020. JUSTICE ALITO AND HIS FELLOW CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES HAVE ALREADY DELIVERED FOR CHRISTIAN RIGHT WITH THEIR DOBBS DECISION, STRIKING DOWN ROE V. WADE, AND SOON THEY WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO DO SO AGAIN. THE SUPREME COURT IS ABOUT TO RULE ON TWO MAJOR CASES OF CONSIDERABLE SIGNIFICANCE TO THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT. ONE WILL DETERMINE WHETHER ACCESS TO THE MOST COMMON FORM OF ABORTION IN THIS COUNTRY IS SIGNIFICANTLY RESTRICTED OR NOT AND ANOTHER WILL DETERMINE WHETHER DOCTORS IN EMERGENCY ROOMS CAN DENY PREGNANT WOMEN MEDICALLY NECESSARY ABORTIONS. HOW THE COURT RULES ON THESE ISSUES COULD TELL US JUST HOW MUCH POWER THE CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST MOVEMENT HAS GAINED IN THIS COUNTRY AND HOW CLOSE THEY ARE TO VICTORY. JOINING ME NOW ARE LISA, THE NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES", SHE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE FALL OF ROE: THE RISE OF NEW AMERICA, AND WITH ME IS MARK JOSEPH STERN, SENIOR WRITER WHO COVERS THE COURTS AND LAW AT SLATER MAG SOOEVEN. THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME. LISA, LET ME START WITH THE PIECE YOU HAVE OUT TODAY IN THE TIMES. AN ARRAY OF CONSERVATIVE, INCLUDING ANTI-ABORTION ACTIVISTS, CHURCH LEADER, AND CONSERVATIVE STATE LEGISLATORS HAS OPENLY EMBRACED THE IDEA THAT AMERICAN DEMOCRACY NEEDS TO BE GROUNDED IN CHRISTIAN VALUES AND GUARDED AGAINST THE RISE OF SECULAR CULTURE. I DON'T THINK IT'S AN EXAGGERATION TO SUGGEST THAT STRAIN OF CONSERVATISM NOW SEEMS TO DOMINATE THE SUPREME COURT AS WELL. DO YOU THINK THAT'S FAR OFF? >> LOOK, PART OF WHAT WE DOCUMENT IN OUR BOOK, THE FALL OF ROE AND THE RISE OF A NEW AMERICA, IS THAT LATTER PART OF THE TITLE, THE RISE OF A NEW AMERICA. WHAT THAT IS ABOUT IS THE RADICALIZATION OF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS. AND WE'VE SEEN SOME OF THAT COOLING OUT OF THESE TAPES FROM THE COURT, BUT YOU KNOW, I WANTED TO DRAW YOUR VIEWERS' ATTENTION TO ANOTHER STORY TODAY, WHICH WAS THAT THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION, WHICH REPRESENTS THE LARGEST PROTESTANT DENOMINATION IN THE COUNTRY, 13 MILLION CHURCH GOER, CAME OUT AND SAID THEY OPPOSE IVF. THIS IS A FAIRLY RADICAL STATEMENT FOR THAT GROUP, AND WE'RE SEEING THIS RETURN TO THESE CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE CULTURAL VALUES FROM THE CHURCHES ALL THE WAY UP TO ALITO'S STATEMENTS AT THE COURT. SO I DO THINK WHAT WE'RE WATCHING IS THIS SHIFT IN AMERICAN POWER. WE DON'T KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING TO GO, BUT WE HAVE A TEMPLATE FOR SUCCESS FOR THIS MOVEMENT, AND THAT, OF COURSE, IS THE FALL OF ROE. AND HOW THAT NETWORK OF CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN ACTIVISTS AND LAWYERS WERE ABLE TO TAKE DOWN THAT LEGAL PRECEDENT MAY BE A WAY THAT THEY CAN THEN MOVE ON TO TACKLE THESE OTHER THINGS THEY ARE OPPOSED TO LIKE, AS WE LEARNED TODAY, IVF. >> YEAH, I MEAN, I DO -- WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SHIFTING THE WINDOW, MOVING THE GOAL POST ON THE FIELD, IT FEELS LIKE THE ACTIVISTS ON THE FAR RIGHT ARE SIGNALLING TO THE ALITOS OF THE WORLD, THIS IS WHERE WE'RE AT, SEE IF YOU GET HERE. MARK, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ALITO'S EVOLUTION HERE, BECAUSE HE WASN'T ALWAYS EITHER THIS EXPLICIT OR RADICALIZED WHEN HE JOINED THE COURT. CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HIS PROGRESSION TO WHERE HE IS NOW? >> YEAH, I THINK A CRUDE BUT ACCURATE TERM TO DESCRIBE ALITO IS MAGA PILLED. DURING DONALD TRUMP'S RISE AND PRESIDENCY, ALITO REALLY LET HIS CHRISTIAN NATIONALIST FLAG FLY AND XAN TO EMBRACE NOT ONLY THE RHETORIC BUT ALSO THE SUBSTANCE OF THIS FAR RIGHT CHRISTIAN SUPREMACY AND THIS IDEA THAT CHRISTIANITY IS ROOTED IN THE CONSTITUTION, THAT WE ARE A CHRISTIAN NATION, AND THAT COURTS HAVE SOME KIND OF OBLIGATION TO PROTECT AND, INDEED, ELEVATE CHRISTIANITY ABOVE NOT JUST OTHER RELIGIONS BUT ABOVE SECULAR SOCIETY. AND HE WENT ON A LITTLE BIT OF A TALKING TOUR EARLIER THIS DECADE WHERE HE DECRIED THE NEW MORAL CODE OF SECULARISM THAT PROMOTED REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM AND LGBTQ EQUALITY AND SAID THAT IT WAS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO CHRISTIANITY. AND ALL OF THIS IS REFLECTED VERY MUCH IN HIS DECISIONS, DECISIONS LIKE ONE A FEW YEARS AGO WHERE HE TRIED TO LET PHARMACISTS DENY PLAN B TO PATIENTS TO WHOM IT WAS PRESCRIBED. NOT, YOU KNOW, ANY KIND OF ACTUAL ABORTION DRUG BUT JUST PLAN B. AND DECISIONS LIKE HOBBY LOBBY WHERE HE'S ALLOWED CORPORATIONS TO RESTRICT EMPLOYEE'S ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL. AND THESE ABORTION CASES, MOST NOTABLY DOBBS AS LISA DOCUMENTED, SAM ALITO WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE MAN TO WRITE THAT OPINION OVERRULING ROE V. WADE. IN THE COMING DAYS AND WEEKS, WE'RE GOING TO GET THESE DECISIONS ON ABORTION, ESPECIALLY INVOLVING THE ABORTION PILL. AND I THINK ALITO IS QUITE LIKELY TO STICK HIS NECK OUT IN THAT DECISION AND WRITE ABOUT HOW HE BELIEVES MEDICATION ABORTION IS UNLAWFUL UNDER EXISTING FEDERAL LAW, UNDER THE COMSTOCK ACT OF 1873. THIS IS A RADICALIZED JUSTICE, VERY MUCH MAXIMIZING HIS IMPACT BY STAKING OUT THE POSITIONS THAT ACTIVISTS IN THE GRASSROOTS WANT HIM TO TAKE, LEGITIMIZING THEM AND SHIFTING THE WINDOW AND EVENTUALLY, HE HOPE, TRANSFORMING THEM INTO THE LAW OF THE LAND. >> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S QUITE OBVIOUS THAT THE DNA OF THE CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE WARRIOR CLASS HAS IMPRINTED ITSELF UPON THE SUPREME COURT, BUT LISA, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP IN POLITICS BETWEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, DONALD TRUMP AND HIS PRO-MAGA COALITION AND THE CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN WARRIOR CLASS, I WOND EVERY IF TRUMPISM HASN'T IMPRINTED ON THEM. I'M THINKING ABOUT THOSE TWO PIECES OF SOUND WHERE DONALD TRUMP IS IN A CHURCH, A BIG CHURCH, AND THE CALL AND RESPONSE IS THE WORD BS. IT'S A FAMILY PROGRAM, SO I'M NOT GOING TO SAY THE ACTUAL WORD. AND RUDY GIULIANI IS CALLING TANEY WILLIS, THE D.A. THE FULTON COUNTY, ONE OF THE MOST VULGAR THINGS YOU CAN CALL A WOMAN, WITH DISTINCT RACIST UNDERTONES. THIS SEEMS TO BE A NEW BRAND OF, I GUESS, CHRISTIANITY, IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT THAT, IN THE AGE OF TRUMP. >> YEAH, LOOK, THE CHURCH HAS CHANGED POLITICS. BUT POLITICS HAS CHANGED THE CHURCH TOO. AND CHURCH, ESPECIALLY CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL AND CATHOLIC CHURCH, HAVE GROWN SO MUCH MORE POLITICAL. AS WE SHOW IN OUR BOOK THE FALL OF ROE, THEY MADE THIS DEAL WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP. HE PROMISED THEM IN 2016 IN IOWA CHRISTIANITY WILL HAVE POWER, AND CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS JUMPED ON THE TRUMP TRAIN, AND IT ENDED UP BEING A BULLET TRAIN FOR THEM. THEY GOT THREE JUSTICES ON THE SUPREME COURT, AND THE DEAL WAS SET. AND NOW THEY'VE BEEN WITH HIM FOR EIGHT YEARS, AND IT DOESN'T -- FOR CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS, THEY'RE WITH HIM. HE CAN MODERATE HIS TONE ON ABORTION, SAY HE WOULDN'T SIGN A 15-WEEK FEDERAL BAN, AND THEY'RE STILL PROBABLY GOING TO STICK WITH HIM. THEY ARE FULLY BOUGHT IN AND PART OF THIS MAGA MOVEMENT, AND THE TWO ARE OPERATING TOGETHER. NOW, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP IS IN A DIFFERENT POSITION, BECAUSE THE POLITICS OF ABORTION HAVE CHANGED SO RADICALLY. HE SENSES THE TOXICITY THERE, WHICH IS WHY YOU'VE SEEN HIM COME OUT AND SAY IT SHOULD BE RETURNED TO THE STATE, THAT HE SUPPORTS EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE, INCEST, AND LIFE OF THE MOTHER, SO THAT DANCE HAS GOTTEN MORE COMPLICATED FOR HIM POLITICALLY, BUT THERE'S NOT A SENSE THAT HE'S WORRIED ABOUT LOSING THIS GROUP THAT'S REALLY BECOME A CENTRAL CORE OF HIS MOVEMENT AND HIS BASE OF SUPPORT. >> WELL, YEAH, AND I -- I MEAN, ONE WONDER WHERE IS THE GUARDRAILS ARE IN ANY OF IT. I MEAN, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS EFFECTIVELY PLEDGED FEALTY TO EVERYTHING TRUMP REPRESENTS, CHRISTIAN WARRIOR CLASS AND ALL, AND THEN ON THE SUPREME COURT, MARK, HOW MUCH OF A COUNTERWEIGHT IS SOMEONE LIKE JOHN ROBERTS OF BRETT KAVANAUGH, DOES THE ATTEMPT AT COUNTERWEIGHING HAPPEN ON THE SUPREME COURT? >> THEY ARE A VERY FEEBLE COUNTERWEIGHT WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO BE ONE AT ALL. ALL THREE OF TRUMP'S APPOINTEES GENERALLY VOTE IN LOCK STEP WITH WHAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WANTS. TRUMP HAS, OF COURSE, TAKEN OVER THE PARTY, SO IT IS VERY MUCH HIS COURT. AND I THINK IT'S REALLY DISTURBING, ESPECIALLY, TO LOOK AT SOME OF THESE DECISIONS THAT DO INVOLVE EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES OF TRAGIC MEDICAL MISHAPS WHERE WRIM IN DIRE OF NEED OF ABORTION, RIGHT, THIS IS ONE OF THE BIG CASES THIS TERM. STATES ARE SAYING THESE WOMEN CANNOT GET ABORTIONS THAT THEY HAVE TO GET SEPSIS, THEY HAVE TO BEGIN HEMORRHAGING, THEY HAVE TO BE DYING BEFORE THEY CAN GET ABORTIONS. WELL, REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS LINED UP TO AGREE WITH THOSE LAWS AND TO SUPPORT THOSE LAWS OF THE SUPREME COURT YOU HAD A TON OF REPUBLICAN STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL AND REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS LINING UP TO SAY WE DO THINK WOMAN SHOULD BE FORCED TO THE BRINK OF DEATH BEFORE THEY CAN GET EMERGENCY ABORTIONS. I THINK THE SUPREME COURT WILL LIKELY AGREE WITH THEM AND CONTINUE TO FORCE THESE WOMEN INTO THESE HORRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES. AND TRUMP IS SAVVY ENOUGH NOT TO SAY ANYTHING AT IT, BECAUSE HE KNOWS HE'S GOT HIS FOOT SOLDIERS IN THE JUDICIARY DOING THE WORK FOR HIM. HE'S GOT HIS GUYS ON THE BENCH WHO ARE READY TO UPHOLD THE MOST DRACONIAN ABORTION BANS IMAGINABLE, AND HE DOESN'T HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING. AND JUST BY REMAINING SILENT AND NOT SPEAKING OUT AND CONDEMNING THESE BAN, HE KNOWS HE CAN KEEP THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT VERY MUCH ON HIS SIDE. AND THAT IS THE WHOLE GENIUS OF THE STRATEGY BEHIND CAPTURING THE COURTS. YOU GET THESE JUSTICES AND JUDGES ON THE BENCH FOR DECADES, THEY WILL DO YOUR BIDDING, THEY WILL UPHOLD YOUR EXTREME LAW, THEY WILL UPHOLD YOUR DRACONIAN POLICIES, AND MOST VOTER, UNFORTUNATELY, DON'T DRAW THOSE LINES BETWEEN THE JUDGES AND THE PRESIDENTS THAT APPOINTED THEM AND THE PARTIES THOSE PRESIDENTS BELONG TO, SO THEY GET AWAY WITH THIS STUFF. THAT'S THE STORY OF TRUMPISM IN
