Macron in New Caledonia: Will surprise visit quell tensions on French Pacific island? • FRANCE 24

he's literally gone halfway around the world now after a 27-hour flight what can Emanuel maon do with his surprised visit to New Caledonia critics see deadly riots in the French Pacific island as a crisis of his own government's making what with an electoral reform that indigenous kaks say dilutes their voice in upcoming provincial elections sovereigntist loyal to Paris point to long-standing Residents who don't have the rights to vote they say that's not fair the last time New Caledonia witnessed this kind of eruption was the 1980s then too it was electoral reform that Lit the spark it ended with a carefully worded deal that granted a special status to an overseas collectivity which the United Nations to this day still lists as an occupied Colony well ask what it means in the 21st century to fly a French flag in a land that's more than 17,000 km away from Paris remember the majority like it that way in new calonia how strategic is a South Pacific that's in a island that's in Australia's backyard patrolled often those Waters by the United States and coveted by China today in the France 24 debate we're asking about M's trip to New calonia with us from s joining us from Honolulu is historian David Chappelle professor of Pacific history at the the University of Hawaii at Manoa the author of The kak Awakening the rise of nationalism in new calonia welcome to the show or good morning I should say good morning thank you for having me from Washington hi historian Patricia O'Brien Adjunct professor at Georgetown University good afternoon to you good afternoon Francois and uh we are say good evening to David Camu who is Adjunct professor at the French Political Science Institute SPO good to see you pleasure your reactions on the hash f24 debate they call it the Rock New Caledonia uh is that's how the the locals describe uh the Island state the island territory and it's again been rocked to its core six killed in 10 days of rioting including two jeams prompting that surprise trip by the French President Lon beer has more hoping to a piece mentions after a week-long political crisis Emanuel macron traveled to new calonia on Tuesday in a bid to restore order to the riot hit territory speaking at the National Assembly which held a minute silence to honor those who lost their lives in the violence French prime minister Gabrielle atal was confident the president's visit would help usher in a return to [Applause] calm he will hold talks with all actors of new Caledonian Society political parties civil Society actors young people economic actors and Indigenous groups the aim is to be by their side and to start laying the ground workor to rebuild violence erupted last week after French MPS approved a bill to change new caledonia's electoral laws it would allow residents who've lived in the territory for at least 10 years to vote in provincial elections a change the indigenous canak people say will further erode their rights after a week of riots that saw hundreds of businesses pillaged and several people killed [ __ ] slowly returned on Tuesday with French military and police continuing to clear out roadblocks but some canic activists vowed they would keep protesting until the bill was scrapped our last spot our last spot we won't give up until they withdraw the text no no we won't give up even if we have to die for it we'll stay here on the roadblocks pro-independence leaders have blamed the riots on mcon and accused him of forcing the unpopular reform through Parliament some took to social media on Tuesday to criticize the president's visit and warned it could end up adding more fuel to the fire David Cameron were you surprised to hear Emanuel macron saying he was going to fly to New calonia I was both surprised and not surprised uh not surprised in the sense that um he's created a problem with his own making and uh the problem really goes back in my view till to the referendum held in 2021 despite the oppos opposition of the kaks because of covid they asked for the referendum to be postponed because they were in a mour period for those who being killed by by covid and uel macron didn't listen why didn't he listen because new cedonia has a new importance uh for president macron it's it makes um France an Indo Pacific nation and and that is the key it's really no longer just domestic concern it's it's a geopolitical uh concern for for the president of the Republic a geopolitical concern an economic one too with the vast nickel deposits or is that simply perhaps over overblown well the the problem is that the the price of nickel has fallen dramatically and new cedonia produces I think just about one tenth of the production of Indonesia which is the world's largest nickel producer which is just next door um and those nickel mines actually need subsidies at the moment but yes there is an economic concern because those mines do employ lots and lots of people including lots of kak all right back in 1985 there was another spike in tensions in new calonia and another French president who sprung the same surprise so there you see Christino Clen from French television asking him you've been to Lebanon recently will you be going to new calonia yes I will tomorrow he says uh David Chappelle you remember that yes I remember the 1980s period in New Caledonia was a even more disruptive than what's going on at present and I think that could have been avoided also what parallels can we draw between uh this surprise visit and that surprise visit well the way I look at the long term of new Caledonian history there are a lot of zigzags you might say in the way France uh was working with or not working with the indigenous people and their desires for Independence they had 100 Years of brutal colonization uh lost 90% of their lands uh confined to reserves and had no civil rights then that changed right after World War II when they suddenly got voting rights and citizenship and that began a whole new era of decolonization in the territory uh under a multi-racial political party called the Caledonian Union and they even achieved autonomy in 1957 but here's where the plot fixed the next year when President Charles deal came to to power he had the same kind of vision that macron has today about being a a world power and wanting to play a big role and he also wanted to keep control of the nickel industry so he took away new caledonia's autonomy during the 1960s and there was a nickel boom because the American war in Vietnam so about 25,000 new migrants came into the territory that was actively encouraged by prime minister Pierre Mesmer also so that that completely changed the demography of new calonia and the kanak became a minority for the first time in their country that's what led to the crisis in the 1980s uh where polarization had grown because of a kanak nationalist movement and the settlers became very militant themselves and refusing to make concessions to them so that's the context for um the the clip that you just showed us Patricia O'Brien uh it's again uh do you look at new calonia through the lens of majority rule today or uh who historically uh the land belongs to uh I think that you really need to I mean if France wants to keep new calonia it has to uh definitely and if it wants to be a power in the Pacific it definitely needs to pay close attention to the indigenous population because new calonia is relatively unique in the Pacific in that it is uh in a still a colonial type of relationship with France amongst a whole lot of indigenous uh rur uh self-ruled Nations and if France really wants to be part of the region it very much has to pay close attention to the well-being and the political aspirations of its indigenous peoples and France has really set itself back in in uh since 2021 and particularly as it's kept up this really hard line against Independence the independence movement in in new calonia that the region has it's triggered the region to uh look you know to go back to France when France was seen as very competitive and France was seen as not a good player in the region and France is sort of put itself back there again you you say a Hardline stance uh how so and why well I think the Hardline stance comes from uh you know not listening to Independent voices uh driving through reforms where uh and you know recognizing the third referendum as a valid vote when the independence movement uh you know as we've had explained very clearly said it was not and you know very few people the region accept it as a valid uh expression of the the will of the people and so I think that that's sort of like the issues that France has to really grapple with and because it hasn't grappled with it because it's pushed things through uh that particularly because decisions are being made in Paris that have a huge impact in in uh in new calonia that this triggers a whole lot of ill feeling against France because every part of the Pacific uh has a has relationships and history Colonial histories and this is what people are seeing kind of reborn uh at the moment and it's not a good uh place for France to be the French President then taking uh his bag and catching a plane to the other side of the planet now there was less rioting overnight but there was more destruction still the ransacking of a construction company a car dealership was gutted uh schools as well the damage so far estimated by insurers at1 billion euros macon's visit met with mixed expectations let's hope that this visit by Mr mcon and Mr Daman will have a positive impact for the country because it's chaos at the moment he's coming too late after all the massacres it's going to make things worse because he's already got a bad reputation here and this is just going to add to the animosity so there you see mixed reactions David cam to this video I think that's understandable I mean after the matin agreement with and then the new agreement this is 1988 and 1998 right so the French state was seen to a certain extent as as a kind of neutral arbitrator that there wasn't you know strongly taking sides one way or the other and that changed under President maon uh pushing through this third his first prime minister edar phip was considered an even broker by by many that's right and and there had been a a long history of of efforts made to of reconciliation so what happened after why I'm sort of I'm thinking back of the 1980s and and Bernard Pawn when he was interior Minister it you start playing the Nationalist flag a the Loyalist Flag and and so that the French State and president m is no longer considered as as as a kind of neutral referee he's considered to be on the side of the Loyalists so this is going to make and he's going to spend 24 hours and set up a committee or something come on let's be serious yeah and by the way and you heard the woman there talking about his interior minister in that clip maon to be flanked by the outspoken Gerald darmana the same one who drew the ey of Liverpool fans when he blamed them for the tear gas and Mayhem ahead of the 2022 Champions League final in Paris last week he accused aeran of stoking tensions in new calonia with a disinformation campaign aeran which is at daggers drawn these days with France over over paris's support for Armenia now for investigative newsweekly L D's claims are a smoke screen for calls that had been unheeded the High Commissioner Lou lefron had warned the government of a risk of rioting says a source it should not prevent a frightening lack of preparation on the part of the state when it all erupted last week is this the interior Minister's fault David Cameron I think there was certainly a failure for example to understand the alienation of young kaks um and you know there are some very fine specialists in France and in idonia that know what is happening on the ground and they will not listen to and that's again the difference you know in the period of the 30-year period where um prior to the last referendum in in which these people were listened to and and and a way is f of reconciliation at least of dialogue between Loyalists and and Independence was found and that's that's been sort of thrown away there's been more uh police reinforcements David Chapelle that have been sent uh to new calonia but you have on the one hand the roadblocks we saw them in that opening report and on the the other hand uh these uh neighborhood sort of vigilante groups or uh uh crime protection units I don't know how you want to call them uh that have also been set up it's very tense in new calonia yes it's a terrible situation I I feel very badly for all new caledonians because of this enormous amount of disruption and destruction um and it I think could have been uh foreseen uh as people have been saying uh mron basically jumped the gun um by trying to push through the Voting Rights change unilaterally basically through the French Parliament instead of having a negotiation first because the Numa Accord requires that even after the referendums and especially the doubtful third referendum where 56% of Voters didn't even participate uh there needs the new court said at that point after the referendums whatever the outcome everyone is supposed to sit down at the table and negotiate a new Arrangement and that did not happen could it happen yet because the president has said he could make the president has said he could make concessions has even talk that he won't ratify the new electoral Reform Bill which now must go to a joint session of Parliament that would that would be a wise decision first of all eliminate that bone of contention and get people talking I'm a little doubtful that his going there today with the minister of the Army and the minister of the Interior who already has a bad reputation in the country that they that Tre the trior are going to be able to make any significant progress I think what they're really showing is France is showing a should force that they will bring order again but they've talked about having a mission of dialogue that I think should include a diverse array of participants not only in new calonia but among the French political Spectrum for example the overseas territories and Parliament have offered to send uh people to help with the negotiations there it needs to be a very broad-based conversation and and you we were talking earlier about indigenous kanaks who make up an estimated 40% of new caledonia's population today and uh as our panel's been saying the gulf between them and the European origin kashes as they're known is a vast one Antonio carrian has that story present for thousands of years before French colonization many members of the indigenous canak community in New Caledonia feel France has no business governing the Territory located 16,000 Mi away from its mainland all the kaks ask is to be recognized in their own country and to be allowed to run the country themselves if you go to Fiji it's run by fijians it's only here in New Caledonia that when you arrive you find other people in the authorities the canak Le separatist movement first gained momentum in the 1980s leading to something resembling a short-lived but bloody Civil War agreements made in the 80s and '90s laid out a road map towards referendum on self-determination for the island range calming the violence but after none of the three pites held delivered a vote for Independence the territory status is once again up in the air since the 1998 Numa agreement the new Caledonian electoral register has been closed to new arrivals in the territory a move to prevent the dilution of the indigenous vote but after a constitutional change voted through the National Assembly this month promised to reopen the Electoral register allowing in 25,000 new voters only 12,000 of whom are indigenous canak activists cry provocation the dilution of the electorat is not a new issue we've been warning them for some time and they know that it's a divisive issue they know that they're undermining the num Accords with this kind of rhetoric an already marginalized Community the canak people are twice as likely to be unemployed as the rest of the population and only 8% of them complete higher education compared to 54% in the European community of the island range and we can Welcome to our conversation from Singapore political scientist former French diplomat Fred Kon thank you for being with us here in the France 24 debate yeah uh this is a we we see uh that there are two sides on this on the one hand those who who State as we heard that activist say uh that the deals have been broken on the other hand uh those who claim that well there are people now with those voter roles that have been frozen for decades people who are live in new calonia all these years and who cannot vote what's the right way to go about it now yeah what what happened was uh very predictable because what we are listening of the past day is a conse is a direct consequences of uh um unilateral uh political move by the French national authorities uh we need to go back to the spirit of the agreement signed you know years ago under martinho and and then num you know political framework agreements that means that we need to reach agreement between the camps uh rather than you know imposing any unilateral uh solution uh conceive only at the national level and uh there is I think that the visit that President m is uh uh having now to new calonia is a fantastic symbolic gesture provided that he uh took the right uh decisions and what I say uh that I mean in the first place that he would have to uh withraw the Constitutional reform about the electorate uh uh which is uh you know under under discussion now and secondly I think that it would be a good decision that he uh commission committee what's officially he's going to do of independent political personalities that will renew the dialogue in the territory so what you're saying for Fred conon is you don't think he'd be go making this 27-hour journey from Paris to Numa if he wasn't going there to hit paw on this uh electoral reform yeah I think I think he he he would he would do it I think he would do it but uh from now I don't have any confirmation I think that that what would be uh a pointless visit if he uh were not to take uh this this political move I think we he he he badly needs to come down things now and restore peace and dialogue uh without you know there there is there would be no solution uh possible because the tension is very high as you can as you can as you can see and uh he has to cancel uh the you know the Congress the French Parliament was to to meet in in Congress to Joint session adopt the Constitutional you know reform about the Electoral he has to cancel that and to give the two camps enough time uh to find a compromise which could be acceptable by both uh camps the bides David camon uh Emanuel mcon he is a chance for him to play uh to play good cop to his interior Minister's bad cop there is that possibility because the cost he's done it before right right and the cost for France are not just in new cidonia but they're also in relation to the neighborhood I mean one of the consequences of those two agreements was that France was perceived both in Australia and New Zealand and also in some of the Pacific Islands as a responsible you know neighbor uh within within the the South Pacific uh and that uh has been sacrificed as well on this on pandering to the the loyalists in in new cidonia Patricia O'Brien images of uh stranded Australian tourists making their way home finally uh is that going to sour the mood what with Australia which uh has been going a long way to men ties with France since it broke that submarine deal a few years back yes Australia's Got To Tread a very fine line because on the one hand Australia does not want to see further conflict in its uh neighborhood in its region um you know just earlier this year there was uh riots in Port morby which uh different causes than the ones in um in in new calonia but nonetheless the images that you were showing of new Cal of new Mayo you know look very much like what was happening in Port mby just a few months ago so all of these things Australia does not want instability in the region these things are extremely uh you know bad for all all people in the region but there's the additional layer of the geopolitical issue as well uh particularly with the the the issue of China which I'm sure we're going to come to uh so Australia has to be very careful and I think what Australia's tactic is going to be is to to to uh make sort of benign comments about uh you know saying that there should be calm uh and and that there should be talks but I think Australia is going to very much step behind what the Pacific Islands forum is going the the statements that they're going to make about what's happening in new calonia and over the the last couple of days there's been some very strong statements coming out from the Pacific Islands Forum about the way that France has basically you know brought this situation about and that austral and that now France needs to fix it France needs to fix it uh th those Pacific island States uh well they're jostling between superpowers these days those that are closer to China those that are not uh Patty when you look at uh the uh uh the statement like the one that can come out from that Regional body do you look at it at face value or do you see this the Unseen hand of China oh I think that what is the the much bigger uh Force there is like the memory the historical memory of colonialism which as I said is uh you know extremely powerful and I think what people are seeing in in new calonia is very much so many parts of the Pacific have gone through very similar experiences uh over the past 100 years but you know it's still know a very triggering uh footage to see uh forces coming into a country and trying to quell unrest um so I think that China is very much um uh in the background but I think people are much more worried about the resolution of colonial legacies and about these Colonial legacies being uh resolved in good faith and I think that that's what has not happened here and where macron has really set things back and uh it'll be interesting to see how he can turn things around David Chapelle where you're sitting in Honolulu is it people see through the prism of uh uh Liberation struggle from colonialism or do they see superpower tensions in the Pacific well there's a mixture actually many people in Hawaii don't know much about new calonia we're kind of far off the grid up in the northern part of the Pacific but those uh who do work with the South Pacific countries and Pacific studies and so forth uh they they definitely feel that uh you know this this is part of a superpower struggle because Hawaii is also the headquarters of the United States Central Pacific command and they have their idea of competing with China in the region while the Chinese have their ideas of trying to control certain Islands against the United States and Australia for example so there are many factors involved but the basic one I think is the long-term kanak struggle which has been an ongoing process and I wanted to mention briefly that within the loyalist category there is variety so so is there there is variety Ong the kanak some are Loyalists and there are some caledonians who support the movement who are not kanak among the Loyalists a big group is the Polynesians who are 20% of the population and they have a party that works closely with the kak parties to deal with socioeconomic issues because there's still enormous inequality in the country um but they come up short in supporting Independence so the the map is a little bit more complex than portraying loyalist versus kanak and it should be mentioned that the Europeans are not the majority of the population Fred con uh when you think back in a previous life you were an advisor to uh uh a pre in the French Caribbean State superintendent uh your thoughts when you're uh when you're listening uh to the uh complex Patchwork described there by David Chappelle yeah yeah again what I I I see that we we need to to get the two uh uh leaders of the the main leaders of the two sides around uh table and to give them enough time to reach a compromise there is room for maneuver uh provided that the state allow each side to uh you know take uh uh the the necessary steps forward and uh within the population you would see that in in each side you would see you would see that uh there there are there are a large majority uh uh of the L East large majority within the independen E uh who ask only one thing uh first uh to restore peace and two uh to reach peacefully uh uh a compromise what we had over the past let's say 25 to 30 years was a unique process of decolonization and it's a Pity to see that uh it it took uh less than a week to re it and now we have to drive the two camps uh back on the right track of a peaceful uh a negotiation of a compromise most of the people living in this island want to live together but the the the canak the millennian side no longer wants to be the the one who is sacrific on the altar of the Ron I think the point that David chapella made is very important of the 20% of the population who neither kak nor Kos uh the polyan the people from the world in funa who are a significant part of the population as well and and you have this uh um is this an a a unique case new calonia or are there uh other far-flung places far from uh uh what is I don't know if we can call it the colonial power or the mainland it is somewhat of a unique case I mean in the literature historical literature we talk about colonies of settlement and colonies of alien rule um like cuz when Argentina and the UK fight a war over the malas the Falcons pop the local population is 98% in favor of the British so in this case the island split um yes and and you not as David chapellis made made the point not just between independentists and Loyalists but but it's a bit more much more nuanced than that uh and that's why the agreements over the last 30 years had been so effective because they they did allow this dialogue between you know different opinions different views and and different social groups in in a spirit of respect and that was that's what was lost I for me after the the force third Independence because what happened after the third Independence is President MCR went back to new calonia uh he made a speech in Sydney and Australia talking about France as an indopacific nation and he made this very strong declaration in that you know the people of new Colonia have decided to remain French and yet that that referendum was not considered legitimate as Patricia has pointed out is it a case Patricia I'm sorry to rub salt in the wound because you're a professor of Pacific studies in the United States that just people in Paris just didn't keep their eye on the ball they just don't know that much about what's happening in their own territories um that's Pro that's possibly you know the case that people have been been listening to the you know to the statements by the government uh about you know how you know what a great thing it is that people want to stay part of France and it's that the status quo is going to be continued uh and I think it if if that's what they believe then there has been definitely a muting of the voices of people from the region uh because there has been you know since 2021 it's been extremely clear that the uh the independence uh side of things has you know has not seen this vote as legitimate and that there there has been you know they they want to see a third referendum held again and so you know that's going to be the starting point for I I would think that macron will have to put that on the table as as something and then he has to accept the the terms you know what what the outcome of that is and that could be very you know given that there's such a surge in uh Independence feeling that France may not like the result uh and then what you know that that's the big question um but somewhere a country like Australia does not want to see France leave new calonia so you know that because that allows uh China a way in to in in in in into an independent state and so there's a whole lot of uh interests that are conflicting um but yes if if people in France uh believe uh what they've been told by the government then they've been seriously uh you know misinformed yeah there we talked about economics we talked about politics uh there's a bit of I guess you could say linguistic Pride sometimes David Cameron new caledonia's neighbor the Vanuatu uh before 1980 it was jointly administered by Britain and France since Independence number of French speakers has plummeted there uh your your your thoughts on when you speak with colleagues at s is there a bit of that well yeah it's terrible and everything but it's it's our um I think it's our territory it's our French flag to fly there yes I think well I think there's a little bit of the the cultural element to it um but I think that more important is this sort of discourse about France as an indopacific Nation um and remember that does that make sense in 2024 well it makes sense I mean you know if you look in terms of Maritime exclusive economic zones I think France is the second I'm not sure the largest Maritime power in the world um so that that is it very important I mean it's a you know unlike that's a very difference with the British who got rid of the confet of Empire um the the the French probably quite wisely hung on to what you know in in the Indian Ocean and in the Caribbean um and made efforts to integrate That Into You Know into the larger Nation um it's interesting I was talking to one of my students from from the reunion Islands how they look at what's happening in in new also of the French Indian Ocean Island Reunion yeah and uh you know again uh the key word that comes out is respect um a respect for the indigenous people and and taking that into account in the way you govern uh in those territories uh David Chappelle is it harder for France to justify a presence in new calonia today than it was 40 years ago and and similarly what to say when you know the United States has overseas commonwealths like Puerto Rico well how to justify an overseas territory that can be a big uh subject to discuss I think the United States has not always dealt well with its overseas territories um and these days with the globalization of uh the world economy and also uh geopolitical competition these overseas territories as in World War I become outposts of what the reigning power says are the good guys um so it's difficult and then you get the complex internal situation which frankly is a kind of conundrum politically I think because of the diversity of the people and their various histories in the territory but what I think is essential is not to have unilateral uh dramatic actions from Paris without consulting in Caledonia and reach an agreement of some kind on the next step uh I think that's what's been missing basically under President M back in March France's president traveled to another overseas dependency uh French Guyana uh it's a department and uh it gives France and the European Union a foothold on the South American uh continent uh Fred conon the fact that uh the Sun never sets on the French flag around the globe your your thoughts on that is that should that still be the case in the 21st century yeah it depends on the circumstances I would say for sure for France there is a a huge you know geopolitical um uh issue what is at stake is the capacity of France to to to to be uh you know let's say a medor major actor you know know uh in in in the in the global global scene does it have the means to do so it's got uh a fleet in the Pacific it's got soldiers in the Caribbean as well Africa yeah in Africa it's different but uh over it overseas uh positions or territories uh France could manage uh to restore you know um a quality di political dialogue with the elected uh local bodies and what is at stake is in new cedonia is precisely that uh F the French state has to uh uh find a way to become much more M more much uh sorry more much neutral in the process of uh uh uh decolonizing new clonia what happened and uh what you know uh uh justify the the uh the situation that we witness over the past weeks was that French no longer the French State no longer observe this neutrality first remember uh president mro appointed uh the president of the uh uh Southern province of new cedonia in the government Sonia Bess and she is one of the leaders of the loyalist Camp secondly the French losing their neutrality we're running short on time David Cameron just a quick final word on this um in this we're in an era of exacerbated nationalism everyone's accusing each other of being an imperialist you agree with Fred con earlier saying that maon could still transform this into a win I I think there's a possibility I remember thinking of a statement I remember way back in 1988 hearing jear yub who was a leader of the kxs saying the problem is not Independence alone it's interdependence and that's the key how how how can uh you know these different groups so in society live together because they are interdependent um and uh so you know seeing Independence in that light I think is trying trying to find the Common Grounds we leave with that David camera I want to thank you I want to thank Fred k for staying up late from Singapore David Chappelle for waking up early in Hawaii Patricia O'Brien for being with us uh at lunchtime in the US capital thank you for being with us here in the France 24 debate [Music]

Channel: FRANCE 24 English

Views: 14,692

Keywords: Macron, New Caledonia, Pacific

Id: uUldnnQqNKs

Length: 43min 18sec (2598 seconds)

Published: Wed May 22 2024