Lutheranism 101 ~ Week 19 ~ Baptism

welcome to the faith lutheran church Sunday morning Bible study for June 12 2011 this morning Pastor Bob Hiller leads us on a discussion on baptism based on chapter 17 in the Lutheranism 101 book let's listen in this is from the large catechism on baptism what it says in baptism therefore every Christian has enough to study and practice all his or her life Christians always have enough to do to believe firmly what baptism promises and brings victory over death and the devil forgiveness of sin God's grace the entire Christ and the Holy Spirit with his gifts it short the blessings of baptism are so boundless that if our timid nature considers them it may well doubt whether they could all be true suppose there were a physician who had so much skill that people would not die or even though they died who would afterward live eternally just think about how the world would snow and rain money upon such a person because of the throng of rich people crowding around no one else would be able to give near now here in Baptism there is brought free of charge to every person's door just such a treasure and medicine that swallows up death and keeps all people alive thus we must regard baptism and put it to use in such a way that we may draw strength and comfort from it when our sins or consciousness oppress us and say but I am baptized and I have been baptized I have the promise that I shall be saved and have eternal life both in soul and body this is the reason why the two things are done in baptism the body has water poured over it because all it can receive is the water and in addition the word has spoken so that the soul may receive it because the water in the word together constitute one baptism both body and soul shall be saved and live forever the soul through the word which it believes in the body because it is United with the soul and apprehend and the only way I can no greater jewel therefore can adorn our body and soul than baptism for through it we become completely holy and blessed with no other kind of life and no work on earth can't acquire let's pray Heavenly Father we thank you for baptism we thank you that you have baptized us into faith and that you have given us the gift of your Holy Spirit we pray today Lord that as we study your scriptures and learn about baptism this is a topic that is wrought with confusion and controversy and so we pray that you would send your spirit to guide us today that we would hear your word for what it says and believe in accordance with that we ask this in Jesus name Amen all right so today we're talking about the government a couple of quick recommendations for you with baptism books this is a book you should just by the spirituality of the Cross but the section in here on the means of grace that is the word of the sacrament is it was one of those things for me that really kind of clarified and solidified what I think about the sacraments because it's it's this is the gives you the biblical view so spirituality of the Cross great introduction to Lutheranism just we did the Bible study on there's a few summers ago I think is that right you who do the Sunday or the Wednesday studies yeah we did this really good stuff this book scriptural baptism it does not look like this I got this when it was out of print and they put it back into print now scriptural baptism I will tell you the guys name and then I was spell it for you so be ready right now it's blue or us two are Navarro he's not American you you Ras that's his first name last name s aar n IV a ARA Mura Sahara he is from I forget where no he writes the foreword from Michigan but he's not from Michigan was the guy from anyhow this is a great book this is a discussion between a lutheran and what we would probably call evangelical Baptists ish person it's basically a Lutheran talking to a Baptist about what is baptism and it's just a debate between the two now it's written by a Lutheran so the Lutheran's gonna win the debate don't think it's sort of this affair we're not looking at a fair debate here obviously I mean you'll make these arguments and the Baptist guy would be like well how about that I would have never thought of that how brilliant you are you know but but it does give you the great argument for infant baptism for what the Bible actually teaches about baptism just a really and it's kind of a fun book to read first chapters a little dense but it's kind of a fun book to read so I recommend this one I won't let you my copy because it is a disaster to read I was falling apart I underlined like the whole first chapter and so if you can't even read that either so anyway scriptural baptism scriptural baptism and then this book if you do want a fair fight in the end of thing scriptural baptism understanding the four views on baptism this Zondervan has a point-counterpoint series which is just great it really is they get really good scholars from every denominational backgrounds to discuss it so here you've got a discussion of baptism between Thomas nettles Richard Kratt Robert Culp that's our Lutheran and John Castle team one guy is Calvinist one guy is Baptist and we'll talk about the differences of them today one guys Lutheran and this by the way is probably one of the best American Lutheran scholars there is is one of the few Missouri Senate guys who is respected around the world whose name is known and Lutheran Theological circles so they get the best of the best from our guys and then John Casselton who is the Church of Christ guy whose view on baptism is a little disturbing so like so close to be good and becomes really kind of dangerous so understanding for views on baptism but it's great it's just a lot I mean look at me I'm a boring guy I read boring things but this for me is a lot of time to read just to see the debate the biggest hang-up there is with the Lutheran she's like yeah he originally born the problem with the Lutheran Ahriman in here is he's kind of just says here the Luther Todd which is good but he doesn't give enough emphasis to the biblical argument there is the biblical argument in there but I wish you would have given a little more of that but that's okay I'd still recommend it highly highly okay so there's some stuff there are also large catechism on baptism is just one of the greatest things to read it's the best theological writings there is it's the large catechism on baptism okay um so that's what you're supposed to do this week would you questions thoughts I know I know our buddy Jeff back here has all kinds of questions for me so anything from last week on long gospel that's probably an insanity this is from the last paragraph concerning law and gospel paragraph of what no it's not a bad book yeah Concord okay so 591 we're looking at the formula Concord right we rejected eminence harmful error therefore we reject and condemn is a harmful error this is what we confess determinable d-terminal to christian disciplines with godly detrimental yeah to appreciative do um good this morning the teaching that the law is not to be urged in the way just described among Christians and those who believe in Christ but only upon unbelievers non-christians and the impenitent this represents the position of Johnnie Buerkle oh yeah so what's your what's your well I guess I was I think it was it's become a little more clear as I read a few times but that was just the last paragraph Internet bold several pages of the law and gospel in the book of Concord okay so the what they're already doing here is that the crisp Agricola is gonna argue john Agricola's and is one of the reformers he's a Lutheran guy but he gets kind of off track on some things and so they have to deal with him Agricola would argue that there is no place in the life of the Christian for the law so you don't ever need to hear the law anymore as a Christian that's what he's that's what a grip Allah says and the confessors the guys to write the book of Concord say that's incorrect those all the other four guys inside there see the three-point was not advocated by name is so called anti no means of the 15 50s and 60s neither by the musculus the noms Dorf poach auto and that's I know observing my guess is if they're anti no means with these one anti know me it means anti law so anti against right na moss and Greek means law so anti namaste ins anti no means they believe that there is no place for the long the Christian life so do whatever you want live it up get drunk pass out do whatever you feel you know you need to do and you're forgiven not a big deal yeah it's a sheep it's a cheap grace it's a cheapening of grace so we wouldn't believe that we believe that the Christian life is long gospel God has ordered the world in such a way we talked about last week that we're supposed to live the law shows us how to live shows us that we're falling short and then gives us a guidance once we've received forgiveness on how low the law drives us to Christ Christ saves us Christ gives us new life Christ invigorates us Christ gives us His Holy Spirit it's the gospel that equips us powers us and enlightens us and saves us in all of this so that we are right with God and can learn to love our neighbor as - the interesting part is that less less sentences he separates the believers from the unbelievers saying the law still right so what Agricola was teaching is that you need to teach the law you need to give the law - yeah I'm believers which is true absolutely yeah yeah okay even unbeliever doesn't know that he's sitting he's never going to hear the gospel yeah so he would say a Greek law would say the law has we said there's three uses remember we talked about three uses of the law Agricola would say there's two uses of the law there is the first use God ordering things and keeping sin at bay in check and then there is the second use which is that the law can fix us of our sin and he would say that's the most important one that's the only one now if you've been saved and you receive the gospel already Agricola would say you don't need the law anymore you have Christ you're good and as Luther says this is true good works are just gonna flow from you you're just gonna be doing good works so you don't need the law telling you anything anymore because it's going to create unnecessary guilt and all this will be done with the law you just need the gospel that's what it wrinkle is going to say who needs the law been Agricola unbelievers the pagans tell them the the law condemned them in their sins and bring them Christ so that then they believe you've tracked with me right now all right we would say this is absolutely true if you walk up to somebody and this is this is our big problem in America right now you say Jesus you know he died for your sins to forgive you you know what they say what sins I don't need forgiveness I'm doing pretty good thank you go no appreciate it go away I we don't need to be forgiven it is we need to be justified and in the sense that people seem to think they need to be vindicated for all that they do and the church comes along and says not everything you do is sinful you be forgiven to which the world is highly offended so the law they need to be hit with the law now if you come to a non-christian and you say Jesus died for your sins and the law has already done its work in their life they already live with guilt they already feel overwhelmed and sinful the thing you don't want to do in those moments is then say let me give you more law but rather well boy do I have some good news for you do I have some refreshing news for you to steal from the sermon this morning that's that's the idea that who gets the law who needs to hear the law in its convicting sense who needs to hear the law and it's convicting sense come on complacent sinners people unbelievers to be sure but even Christians who are complacent who think Oh since I'm a Christian and I'm saved I can do whatever I want and I'll be fine and no big deal that I'm drinking myself silly all the time and watching porn on the internet not a big deal I'm saved anyways that person you need to tell that person yeah maybe not wake up right time to hit you with the law God is not pleased with this the gospel then is given to those who are on the opposite end of the spectrum right who are broken who are sorrowful who are repentant and we as Lutheran's and Lutheran's bullets as Lutheran's but as Christians we're always living in this tension this is why incidentally one of some non Lutheran's come to Lutheranism they're just overwhelmed by how deep how strictly preach the law on how sweet we preach the gospel because it's both it's not sort of this okay now it's time for good living and Christianity is all about helping you become a better person and we're going to give you advice to live a good life no we're going to tell you what God actually demands and show you how the only place where any hope and that is Jesus that makes sense tracking with me okay that's the balance of law and gospel that's what we said last week it gets a little tricky yes right we would say yeah now from our perspective we would say that what the law does there's a third use which is the Christian use sort of this is a tricky topic we would say that for us who have the holy spirit now we want to fulfill the law we want to love our neighbor and if you say to yourself right now I don't always want to love my neighbor there's a lot convicting you see here's how it works now go repent receive forgiveness go get the communion this is this is sort of the pattern here but I mean you hear sometimes like as Christians Christ calls us to love and to serve and we get excited like oh good I can do something that Christ has called me to do I can be who Christ has called me to be in it's exciting thing we would say sometimes that's what the third use of the law does it directs us where to go now that's different from the curb the curb is saying essentially do this and you'll be punished right don't do this in you'll be punished it sort of keeps you at bay it prevents you from doing something wrong the the it prevents you from doing something wrong the first use the third use guides you to doing something right now some Lutheran's will argue these are the great are inside this is stuff I love talking about some of the things will argue that there's essentially no difference between the first and the third use but when you have Christ you just now have a proper relationship with the first use so we don't need a third use at all because otherwise what and their argument there's something to this you guys their argument is that if we emphasize the third use of the law Christianity is going to become all about what the law and not the gospel and what's Christianity all about the gospel and if we focus too much on holy living and holiness what actually happens is the law is always going to accuse us is that we begin to feel guilty that were not Christian enough and if you've ever been outside the Lutheran tradition this was my experience when I went outside looters and for a while just the guilt you feel for not being good enough and Christian enough and holy enough that's kind of yeah well that's what Calvinism now yes that's where Calvinism is gonna end up going ultimately because for Calvinists no this is a great point for the Calvinists the third use is the main use it's the big thing for the Calvinists the law the gospel saves you they have the first two uses and then they say the gospel saves you so that to what end so that you can be a better person no they're not wrong but as one of my professors would say the emphasis is on the wrong syllable all right they're pointing you they're emphasizing too much holy living whereas the Lutheran is going to say let's emphasize the gospel and watch the holy living happen so this is why on some Sundays people will say to me pastor we get the gospel but we want to be give us something good to do we want to do something good and I've been thinking a lot about this one the problem with that saying that to me is I overthink everything and so the first thing I'll think is why don't we talk about Jesus a little more not us that's not the main thing but the other thing I've been thinking about lately is this that if you hear the gospel and your responses okay okay but I want to do something you know what happened the gospel did its job it produced something in you it produced something good a desire to serve into love and now as it turns out my job is not so much to give you direction on what to do your job is now to go and find somebody to love don't you want okay can anybody find okay you know you have people in your life to love and serve and many of you without even knowing it or doing it already because you have jobs and the Spirit is working through you in those jobs to love and serve the people that you work with how so well let's say you work for GM throw it out there you have a responsibility to make sure what's going on in the sales of the cars and that the cars you're selling or good you're telling the customers the truth about the cars and all that kind of stuff on through that the Holy Spirit looks and says that's a good work that's a good work that has been produced in your life and God calls it good because you are his child and he's pleased with it so good job see that's the idea here all of this is produced by the Holy Spirit so I'd begun to think that when people say oh I just want directions on holy living what's happening is that the Holy Spirit is actually working the gospel is producing something the problem is if I just start giving you directions on holy living you know what happens I SAP all your energy I take away all the joy there's nothing producing then that goodness in us anymore becomes self righteous or fair save them so the Lutheran Church is gonna say we emphasize the gospel and just watch the good works come the Calvinist is going to say boy that sounds dangerous why don't we give them the gospel and then emphasize what the gospel produces which ultimately and the Calvinists won't like to talk this way but ultimately snow bring us back to the second use and convict us all the time see so you want to emphasize the gospel over the laws that make sense okay good very good I was so excited when I saw the name Agricola because that's just the most fun stuff third use of the law real one quick one more thing on long gospel you don't want to confuse them or leave one without the other you can never have one without the other okay if you do you run into problems if you have law without gospel you have legalism or pride right if you all been in churches that have done this where they've emphasized so much what you do the people who are pulling it off they're the Pharisees they're proud of themselves and everyone else feels like because they're not a good enough Christian that's the law without the gospel you always gotta have the gospel if you have the gospel without the law what happens well maybe yeah I mean there should be could be community churches that have a good balance of the two item you said it once before chief grace yeah chief grace it becomes a license to do whatever you want and this is the trouble you see like with the EOC a a church body that says we deny the third use of the law there's no law for the Christian anymore it's the loss the gospel ceases to be forgiveness of sins redemption and righteousness and it starts to be love God loves everybody well yeah does God love everybody yeah it's God's pleased with everybody and so when you go to a church that says oh but God loves you just the way you are it's like yes and no you know I mean if you say that to a kid who was like you know picked on in high school for being ugly you say no no no don't worry God loves you the way you are but if you say that to someone who's living and open sinfulness you're saying it's okay to do that and that's exactly where these liberal churches have gone this is the big problem we're facing right now and then they look at us and say you're so unloving why because we call down condemnation zhan sin if that's the case you know that the most unloving character in the Bible is God for heaven's sake you know honey it's like jeez and so I mean yeah and they got a point that a lot of churches they pick on certain sins and they emphasize certain sins too much and and they condemned pet sins too often and in all of this and they don't ever give the gospel but the bat the right answer is not to abandon the law for the gospel and balance the two okay so you got to keep that stuff in mind okay Oh baptism anything else on long gospel Mike McDonald made fun of me for telling you guys to read Walter last week so I apologize for that but you should still do it all right so let's talk back is baptism law or gospel why ah who does the baptizing yeah big thing we gotta get off right off the bat who does the baptizing whose work is it God's work baptism is God's work okay that's the big thing that will help us clarify everything else we're going to talk about today my wife gave the right answers you know she's saying in her head right now all we talk about okay here's my anecdote I worked at a Christian bookstore which was just fodder for all kinds of servin build you want to share no I'm fine I'm gonna have to and we're gonna Christian bookstore when I was in college I've told you this story before a little of my background I'm not one of these guys who had like this crazy wacky sinful life and then I came back to Jesus I've been a Christian my whole life I just have and they're on a crazy conversion experience anything like that but in college I did decide that I wasn't Lutheran anymore I began to hear a lot of you evangelical friends we started attending a covenant church which was like Lutheran Church that became Calvinist I will talk about that and when we talk about the history of Lutheran churches but we started going there and a really great pastor really biblical great services just it was wonderful time and I really started to think you know I'm not Lutheran anymore talk to that pastor a little bit got talking with my roommates who were also wrestling with their Lutheranism and I called my mom and I said I think I'm out of the Lutheran Church you guys always told me that I could go to whatever church body I wanted to they never said you could believe whatever you wanted to but you could be a Christian anywhere you want and and so I said you told me that I'm talking to my mom and I said I think I'm out well why why aren't you Lutheran anymore what Absolut's baptism it's the sacraments I just don't think the Lutheran's are correct in the sacrament okay all right well maybe you'll talk to your dad later okay ten minutes later take your Bible out he says it's like you need to study what the Bible actually says about baptism okay well I begin to talk to some of my professors I think this is where I'm struggling and they start pointing me in the right direction and so I become convinced that the Lutheran take on baptism is correct it's not the Luther take it's the biblical teaching on baptism okay what we're gonna talk about is totally biblical and so I began to believe this well then I'm working at a Christian bookstore one night and a gentleman comes in and asked if I have a King James Version of the Bible now if you don't know this if anybody ever comes you know Christian books are asking for a King James Version not the New King James if they specify say just what the King James watch out okay they're illegal is because there's a lot of people who think that King James Version is the only version that Jesus likes there's actual books that have been written why the King James is more reliable than the Greek actual okay so one of these guys shows up you're in trouble you're talking angry fundamentalist here so he says it's a meeting he decides that talking to me the Christian bookstore music guy that this is an appropriate time to convert me so can you help me find this key I said I got here's our King James section right here I want this Bible this specific looking Edition I mean this guy was hardcore so we just don't have it but the words and this one are exactly like the words in that one and he's well sir I gotta tell you about this Bible I've had this Bible since blah blah blah and that reminds me of the time when I was saved or when I was eight years old and I gave my life to Jesus now you son this guy had to be in his 70s you son when did you give your life to G well actually I don't know if I ever did give my life to Jesus I believe Jesus saved me in baptism oh he says this now is Daniel here okay you're okay he says are you Catholic yeah and I said no I'm Luke well sir and this is over the whole Christian bookstore it's a big store well sir I am Christian and here's what I believe diving in and questioning my salvation and questioning whether I'm actually with God and because I said baptism saved me and I show him the verses and he shows me his verses at which point he said but we all have the age of accountability and I said show me your verses and he left the store he walked out came back 25 minutes later I found it on the age of accountability age of accountability being that age which you were old enough to give your life to Jesus in other words some people believe all children are saved until they can actually give an account of themselves then once they're able to do that then it's hell until they make the right decision apparently which just sounds utterly heartless to me if you really think about it but we'll get into them so um that's what he said and you showed me the verses about oh I don't know I think it's Samuel who at eight years old begins to hear the voice of God or something like this was just a weird proof text but these things go on so I have all of these stories and so the question to me was is this question though is the question I post you when were you saved when were you saved what's the answer to that question and baptism now first no and that is true specifically for you that's when baptism or the salvation came to you in Baptism but when in time were you saved in a sense and the cross right so the right answer to the question of when were you Savior evangelical friends is 2000 years ago on the cross and in Baptism both it's not what you made a decision if you made a decision to follow Jesus the Holy Spirit already had you because we cannot by our own will believe we just can't do it we will not decide to follow Jesus Jesus picks us and we followed in the hole and we don't so that we'll deal with that right just like that you got free will and what you wanted to order if you wanted to come to church today if you wanted to order coffee what you wore you have no free will when it comes to your relationship with God you're either on God's side or Satan's and there's no middle ground you're saying that people are born as they're born is condemned to hell ah I am it is exactly what I'm saying I original smell and it's a hard thing to believe I'm not I'm not telling you it's easy no but that's saying that some people are going they're gonna go to hell regardless no I'm not saying that that's not so I would say yeah here's what I'm saying you're saved by God's grace alone whether he chose you through his word and in baptism that's where God saves you what about those who don't hear what about those who don't believe well Romans 1 says they've rejected God on their own and they will get what they have coming to them it's Romans 1 2 and 3 is what it says and you can't get around it no one goes to hell now be clear on this no one goes to hell because God arbitrarily chose that for them that is not what we're saying anybody goes to hell because they're guilty of sin bottom line everyone who goes to help deserves it no we'll say that doesn't seem fair look let's let God be God when we get to heaven we'll see that he had it all figured out okay who was it fair for him to send them to hell oh you want to sit down and judge God on what he's doing go for it but he's gone and he's pretty good at deciding who should be in heaven and who shouldn't now he says to us that heaven is given to us by faith alone and not by works and not by who it's all a gift all now this doesn't necessarily solve our problem Jeff but I'm afraid the Bible doesn't solve our problem and why some and not others we just don't know but the amazing thing is that some get in because everyone deserves hell and that's what we have to keep in mind it's not that some are more deserving none of us deserve heaven we should all be going to hell when I talked to the Mormons they came by my house and Sophie was probably got the mark sage and we were debating this very thing and I said and they said but you don't believe your daughter's a sinner I'm holding her she's like nibbling on my shoulder or something like this you know looking very cute and giggly and all this and I look at him and I go she is one wicked little girl and they stormed out he actually pointed at me and he said you need to read Nephi chapter three and I said let's slow down we don't need to point fingers in my house I can say quite like that and it was lacking in but the bottom line is we are all by nature sinful and unclean none of us are righteous not one even babies I think when Paul says none of us not one he's including babies so so we're all in the same boat Jeff and so this is the hard part is we don't want to do this when we talk predestination and baptism and salvation we don't want to start living up in the world of philosophy and ideas that God is a fatalist and it's all fate what we want to do is come back down to earth and talk about where is God saving us what is he doing to save us how a salvation found how his salvation given and deal with in a math way and stop trying to figure out the hidden things of God because we won't know the hidden things of God instead look to where he's promised to be and know that not everyone is there and they need to be there so bringing them the gospel good morning junk all right so this is this is where we are this is where we're at this is a tricky thing and baptism is directly linked with our belief about predestination and since it's a direct link for Lutheran's because for the Calvinists do you always say how do you know you're saying that the Calvinists know what they say based on what we talked about a little bit ago holy life I look at my life and I see that the spirits at work why is that dangerous because for some of us the spirits gotta be working overtime yeah that's telling you to do holy living isn't happening quite like God expected so your question is that I ever holy enough someone says I looked at the time I gave my life to Jesus what's the problem with that I'll tell you when I was in high school asking myself that question losing sleep over whether I'd really given my life to Jesus the question was did I do it with my whole heart if you wholeheartedly give your life to Jesus you'll be saved and I think did I use my whole heart or only hands with it like I don't know it's Jean oh my goodness where do I go what do I do have I done enough is this a silly little thing about I'm like I would be praying to that Lord I'm really trying to give my life to you right now I really am and I hope it's enough so I do that right am I being selfish I mean you freak out but for the Lutheran we say how do you know you're saving you know you've been chosen by God where do you look baptism because who did that to you God you're no longer looking at yourself for hope you're looking at to what God has you're looking to what God has done for you and literally physically actually to you there's no doubt that you have been chosen in baptism how do I know it worked he promised he promised he can't doubt his promises his word is pretty powerful it says things like you know let there be light and the lights come on and he says things like you've been baptized the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit and baptism now saves you goodness gracious it's true we can look to something God has done for us and not for security within ourselves does that make sense this is for me this is for me why this is like this every week but my favorite thing to talk about and study and think about is baptism because it's just such a remarkable gift and Luther is absolutely right in the category not exactly we can never think or meditate or talk about it too much now the argument comes along with that maybe not that many verses about baptism in the Bible so how can we give so much credit to baptism isn't the credit given to God isn't it Jesus who saves us why are you putting your hope in baptism that's a teaser we'll talk about it next week God next week we'll do this again because we do the law and gospel today which was I'm very happy about it quite frankly but what we'll do next week is read the section on confession we'll spend very little time on confession but I our that's repentance whatever the next chapter is confession is good for the soul something like that read that chapter we'll talk a little bit about that but next week what we're going to do is I'm going to sort of present you look just because you're baptized doesn't mean you can talk in the middle of class what am i present to you is the other views on baptism the other churches and if you've been in other churches and would like to tell me what you were taught I would love to hear to never want to get these things wrong I want to present everybody pretty fairly and then what we're gonna do is just gonna open the Bible gonna look at what the Bible says about baptism and just that just what does the Bible teach us about baptism so that we have a pretty clear understanding because I'll be honest with you guys I don't want like pit a fight with other denominator but the verses are on our side on this one the only way you get around the verses is by making them say something or mean something beyond what they say the vs. really are on the lutheran side for baptism they just are you know in order to deny baptismal regeneration you just have to rewrite the Bible my favorite example he'll tell us again next week is that pastor I like Mark Driscoll he's up in Seattle and he was preaching a sermon first Peter 3 and first Peter 3 there's a verse it literally says this baptism now saves you that's what the verse says baptism now saves you not by watching the water actually took a bath but baptism now saves you because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that's how it saves you through the resurrection these things are connected so he preached his sermon on sex and he's a Baptist so he denies that so when he gets to this section you can watch his five-minute speech on baptism there's a big header that says baptism does not save you I now take some guts you say I'm gonna take these verses and rewrite them to fit my theology that's ultimately we have to go because you have to say when Peter says baptism saves you he doesn't mean baptism saves you he means something else now we're in trouble so this is good stuff this is what we'll do next week we'll just look straight at the Bible let the verses teach us and and it's it's going to be a lot of fun bring your notes I'll try and write some stuff up for you because if you have non Lutheran friends baptism is it's the thing that they said sticks to them the Moses the thing were they saying you're just nothing but Catholics you're just Catholics who are afraid of the Pope or something like this and we would actually say that might be kind of true but here I mean even in this one the Church of Christ guy says clearly Luther and the Lutheran's they've just not been able to let go of their Catholic roots hey it's just such a dumb argument if you read anything about the Reformation we had no bones about breaking with the Catholic Church there was no issue this is this is actually shreya the Bible who's taking the vs. for what they say so come back with that next week bring your questions because I know it's not just non lisore to struggle with this but we do as well so bring your questions and it will be a lot of fun okay good thank you good questions very good question Jeff thank you for more information on Faith Lutheran Church of Moorpark California and for more podcast episodes like this one visit us on the web at WWF or park calm music by Kevin MacLeod

Channel: Faith Lutheran Church

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Keywords: lutheranism 101, bible study, baptism, lutheran, christian

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Length: 39min 55sec (2395 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 17 2011