Listening In: JFK's Secret Tapes

good evening ladies and gentlemen I'm Tomic nod I'm the executive director of the John F Kennedy Library Foundation and on behalf of my colleague Tom Putnam the director of the John F Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum in all of our library and foundation colleagues I thank you all for coming this evening let me begin by acknowledging the generous underwriters of the Kennedy Library forums lead sponsor Bank of America ray P on Boston capital the Lowell Institute the Boston Foundation and our media partners the Boston Globe and WBUR tonight's forum was a very special one for those who work at the John F Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum tonight's forum is a testimony to the hard work and dedication of government employees who work so hard to preserve the records of our nation's history and in particular those of President Kennedy the publication of listening in the secret White House recordings of John F Kennedy which is the dhawan sale in our museum store would simply not have been possible we are not for the incredible skills and talent and professionalism and dedication of our library staff again government employees there is one person in particular that Tom Putnam and I would like to acknowledge and that is more reporter an archivist who has been overseeing the declassification of these White House recordings for the last 11 years and who knows more about these two hundred and sixty five hours of President Kennedy's taped conversations than any other American so I ask that you please join us in thanking and acknowledging Moore's work and that of all her colleagues here at the Kennedy Library we have a wonderful panel with us tonight joining us for tonight's discussion is presidential historian Ted Widmer who so carefully selected the most compelling and important of these remarkable recordings and then who wrote beautifully detailed annotations of the transcripts placing them in historical context for the reader and listener with us also as presidential historian Ellen Fitzpatrick a professor of history at the University of New Hampshire also a wonderful and frequent contributor to our Kennedy Library forums my colleague and friend Tom Putnam the Kennedy Library is outstanding director who brings such energy to the library's mission of preserving our nation's history and our good friend who we always love having with us Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Tom Oliphant who will serve as tonight's moderator but tonight's featured speaker is really President Kennedy who in July 1962 installed hidden recording systems in both the Oval Office in the Cabinet Room so that he might have a record of deliberations and exchanges during his administration the president also used a dictaphone to record his personal observations following key meetings and events and we thought you would all enjoy seeing the actual dictaphone that he used as Senator before becoming president we put it up here on the stage we invite you to come and look at it after the forum but this is the real thing this is what the president used when he was in the Senate the one he used when he was president is now at our new exhibit down to the National Archives to the brink John F Kennedy in the Cuban Missile Crisis over the years we have welcomed many individuals to this stage who have worked for President Kennedy those who wrote for him those who served with him in the Navy those who knew him as a friend they all had their own take their own interpretation of what happened during those years their own spin now it is the turn of President Kennedy our principal speaker tonight the voice that we invite you to listen to will be that of President Kennedy many of us here at the library see this new book is the one President Kennedy never had the opportunity to write and it is now my great pleasure to introduce the individual who is most responsible for its writing and publication it was Caroline Kennedy who first conceived the idea of a book that presented some of the most compelling and fascinating excerpt of these secret White House recordings and it was Caroline who championed its publication and I can it personally attest that every word every caption every photograph and listening in head Caroline's eye for both detail and accuracy and I'm sure Ted Widmer will speak to that as well Caroline Kennedy as you know is the author and editor of nine best-selling books on American history politics and poetry actually you can make that ten best-selling books we just learned today that listening in is on the New York Times 10 best-selling list Caroline as you know serves as a president of the Kennedy Library Foundation which provides the financial support to this library for some of the programs that the government couldn't otherwise support and at Caroline's request all proceeds and revenues from this the sale of this book will go to the Kennedy Library to support its programs so have I mentioned that this book is now on sale in our museum in our museum store and Caroline has graciously agreed to remain behind this forum to sign the book it is now my great pleasure to welcome to the stage Caroline Kennedy thank you thank you so much what's so nice welcome to all of you it's wonderful to have you here at the Kennedy Library it means a great deal to me that 50 years after my father's presidency so many people still share his ideals and his vision for America to me his greatest legacy are the people that he inspired to enter public service almost every day someone tells me that they ran for office got involved in their community joined the Peace Corps volunteered in the inner city or in outer space because he asked them to give back to this country that's given us all so much the generation he inspired has passed that commitment on to their children and grandchildren in a continuity of spirit that continues to work for a more just and peaceful world as we approach the fiftieth anniversary my family and the Kennedy Library thought a good deal about how to best celebrate and honor my father service and patriotism we recognize that his time is becoming part of history not living memory and that brings opportunities as well as challenges both my parents loved history and they passed that on to me and to my brother John my father read voraciously about the Civil War English parliamentary history in the world wars of the 20th century my mother preferred the ancient world in 18th century Europe for them the past was not a dry dull affair but full of exciting people brave heroes and heroines and events that could teach us a great deal about our own time here at the library we decided to concentrate on making the history of the Kennedy administration accessible to the widest possible audience in the hope that the treasures of the kennedy library will inspire people growing up today in the same way the stories of the past inspired my parents on the fiftieth anniversary of my father's inauguration in January 2011 we launched the digital archive putting all the president's papers correspondence memos photographs and film line so that people around the world could have access to this material not just scholars who could come to Boston we created the president's desk an interactive tool so that kids could click and learn about and experience the most important moments in the presidency and we translated my father's major addresses into more than 40 languages available online this project was the culmination of 10 years of digitizing meta tagging and private sector partnerships which have made this library truly the first presidential archive digital presidential archive NAT last fall we released my mother's oral history 7 conversations with historian Arthur Schlesinger which had been sealed here at the library since 1964 and now to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis we are publishing a book and CD set called listening in the secret White House tapes of President John F Kennedy President Kennedy taped 265 hours of meetings phone conversations in private dictation between July 1962 when the taping system was installed in November 1963 you'll hear more about this from our panelists but the taping system was top-secret it seems that the only people who knew for certain Navas existence were my father his secretary and the Secret Service agent who installed it that is until President Nixon made the idea of ways house taping famous and infamous and other presidential recording systems were revealed against the backdrop of Watergate the concept of secret taping can seem problematic but it is beyond doubt that this is a unique and invaluable historical resource on these tapes history unfolds in real time in the most dramatic possible way we hear the tense confrontations of the civil rights movement and the life-or-death decisions being made during the Cuban Missile Crisis people often ask me why my father installed the system as a lover of history I know he would have been drawn to this new technology as a way of keeping an accurate record of events for the or he planned to write after leaving office and after the Bay of Pigs disaster people say he wanted to be able to remember who said what in case they later changed their tune the wonderful thing about this book is that although much of this material has been available it has not been easily accessible until now the original recordings are of varying quality and it isn't always clear who is speaking in meetings working with Maura Porter our outstanding archivist and her colleagues here at the library historian Ted Widmer did an incredible job of selecting highlights from the most significant crises as well as excerpts to show the range and complexity of issues facing the President as a citizen in an election season I find it fascinating to listen to my father talk about what kind of person succeeds in politics he believed the times were changing and he was right for the time it's interesting to apply his standards to the current campaign he talks about the odds of people with money succeed in politics and about what other factors come into play applying his standard to today's race I know where I come down but I encourage you to make up your own mind as his child I cherish the parts where my brother and I appear on the tapes I remember walking him to the office before school in the morning and visiting him in the afternoon so we could play under his desk it was the highlight of the day for John and me and the delight in my father's voice shows that he felt the same way I feel fortunate to be able to listen in on his meetings to be able to hear his mind at work his tone of voice his chuckle his frustration and most of all his sense of purpose what comes through was his conviction that politics is a way of solving problems and that nothing is more rewarding than giving part of one's life to serving our country I hope that listeners will be inspired by these tapes to answer his call thank you how y'all doing there you go I'm Tom Oliphant and boy if we got a treat for you I know Caroline Kennedy says all the time because it's true talks about the impact that President Kennedy has had on so many lives your moderator included but there was just one thing I wanted to add and that is he's so fascinating both in what he said and what he did that it almost seems as if his words have relevance today and I have an example in my hand direct from these tapes it shows you how many how many gems there are in them it's a meeting with the General Douglas MacArthur by then retired in the Oval Office in August of 1962 and here is President Kennedy in 1962 speaking to us today do you know this fellow Romney what do you know about Romney have you met him still asking this question all these years later we have a tough job up here tonight because time presses in on us and if you I will do my best to be the kind of aggressive moderator you may not have seen on television last night we're going to introduce this fascinating collection of more than 245 hours of tapes plus about what 17 hours of dicta belts and telephone conversations and then we're going to place them and I'm going to introduce five four or five tapes briefly and then we're not going to have time to discuss them in depth but I'll make sure there's at least some discussion after each tape so with that let's get started and Putnam tell us at the scene how long has the library than in possession of these things how did this happen and what was done describe the process that was done to prepare them for the public's use well let me violate your first rule right away because I also just wanted to quickly thank Caroline Kennedy for all of the initiatives that she described that make this institution the cutting-edge institution that is really we couldn't do without her leadership and support and also my colleague tonic not executive director of the Kennedy Library Foundation really was the manager of this entire project and the book that we're all enjoying today couldn't be possible without all the work that he did so the law will the is right after the assassination of the taping system was dismantled and Evelyn Lincoln president secretary moved over to the executive office building and the tapes went to a variety of storage locations and eventually ended up here at the Kennedy Library and as Caroline indicated they weren't there existence was known by a few people before 1973 Robert Kennedy actually used them for his book thirteen days were they all stored in one place primarily it's kind of a long involved story but yes in essence they were and again there's two different types of tapes there's the reel to reel and the dictaphones so it's in 1973 that it's publicly acknowledged that we have the tapes the Kennedy family actually deeds them to us in 1976 and 1983 is when we have the first opening and it's really it's a kind of curious fact that the system was installed in 1962 in the year 2012 we opened and Declassified the very last tape so it took us 50 years but now the entire collection is open and Declassified in this book that Ted worked on is the first book to include all of the tapes though since and if one of these fine people wanted to go browsing where would they go here exactly and how are they organized well even more exciting is Caroline indicated a lot of them have been digitized and they're on our website so people can go to our website go to our digital archives and search them and then on the educational portion of our website for instance the Meredith tapes we actually have a whole website where they come to life and you get the background but you can also come to our research room not all of them are yet on the tape so some people still come to our research room so the word accessible does come to mind yes in that salutely and now Widmer here and by the way you should really appreciate with this guy anybody who has ever had to work with research materials above all tape recordings of office conversations of any kind maybe has some appreciation of what horrible drudgery it is to go through this so on behalf of history Ted thank you very much for for all you did but I I want you to explain something more about the system particularly the way it was set up in the Cabinet Room the Oval Office at least at least one telephone described it there was a switch in the knee part of the resolute the desk and I will answer your question but like Tom I also want to ignore it briefly I had to give my thanks to this great library for what it did to make the writing possible and the library could not have been more supportive at every level beginning with Caroline's phone call and then the constant support of Tom McKnight and Tom Putnam but then all of the librarians more Porter was just you know essential at every tough moment of hearing but all the a/v staff Mary Rose and Bill and Lori and Steve and Karen in the library and it's just it's a great team working here and no historian can do this kind of work without the preliminary work the librarians do for them so I'm very grateful to all of them to get back to the system well Caroline mentioned the desk and you did and she mentioned playing in the desk and it was exactly in the knee hole the space underneath the desk that one microphone was placed our chief source is an oral history by a Secret Service agent named robert bulk bow who in 1977 a while later described where he had put the mics and that's pretty much our only source of knowledge for this if I could interrupt agent Bell had a particular specialty in the Secret Service that makes his choice for this assignment interesting he was his job was to protect President Kennedy from electronic surveillance so he was trying to keep the outside world from listening in but he was tasked to help President Kennedy listen in on his own conversations this is 22 years before 1984 and so one like was in the knee hole of the famous desk another mic was over on the coffee table by the two Davenport's and then in the Cabinet Room not far from the Oval Office there were some drapes and he he put a couple microphones in the drapes and in his oral history he mentioned that he he put microphones in the residence but there's no indication that any tapes ever came out of the residence so so far right um the other question that just naturally occurs is is it impossible to find any documentary record of a decision to do this or things that preceded doing it of some discussion preceded it do you know anything about what produced this that is hard I don't know of any documentary evidence the only evidence is the robert bulk oral history which is pretty interesting and yes he speculates that it was related the Cold War and Evelyn Lincoln once speculated also the Bay of Pigs in particular but I wonder in the introduction if that's true because a year had elapsed and it was 1962 not 61 that the taping system went in and without knowing exactly I think he was getting ready to write a memoir he was well into his presidency and he often joked about his memoir he would up raid aides who had performed badly on a given day and say you I'm going to put this in my memoir you're not careful and so I think this was the the idea of a historian getting ready to write the history of his presidency do you put much credence in the idea that after the Bay of Pigs and of course during it there we know in much detail that a great deal of what the president was told about especially before it happened did not turn out to be particularly accurate and that he did want this as a check on adviser I think that's an added bonus too I mean I still think the historian reason rings true from either the most clearly but he was getting a lot of bad advice about military operations and Bay of Pigs had awakened him to this problem and Cuba was heating up already I mean even a few months before the crisis there were there were tremors and it turned out to be highly appreciate to have this taping system in place because we have a nearly perfect record of all the conversations around the Cuban Missile Crisis a record of extraordinary value for historians and those conversations include conversations by his top military advisors after he had left the room in which they're pretty critical of him and we included a section of that in this foul mouthed debate to actually final question before I get the professor's interpretation on a couple of central points and then we'll hear some videotapes the president had to make a conscious decision to flip the switch in the desk and in the Cabinet Room and on the phones and obviously for dicta building having absorbed all of this can you find or discern any pattern to his switch flipping well as a historian who appreciates the high quality of these conversations I think he knew when an important one was coming and would press the button it was a push button in advance of an especially important phone call or meeting but having said that I don't know the recordings that weren't made so I but the ones that were made were of very high quality meetings and yet we're going to listen to a couple of recordings including one great one at the end about the most deliciously petit of things so so we're left without much guidance as to as to how he used it we are okay professor tell me what something Scott Brown I'm afraid better that's right you know it's no secret it was a great story there the last one to do this and he did it successfully of course was Pat Moynihan in New York and he ran against William F Buckley 's brother Jim Wright and at their first debate yes Buckley turns to him and starts it comes right out of his mouth professor Moynihan and Moynihan looks up with a big smile and says ah the mudslinging begins here it's an honorific thank you tell us generalized for us historians have not typically had access to anything resembling this kind of material with the exception of some nixon and whatever how are we to regard this source of information happen what is it well is it do you have to check it is it good the way it is what I think it's good to go I mean we have what's wonderful about these tapes are the immediacy of them and also we certainly had the we do have other presidential tapes to listen to one of the things that I actually love about these tapes are the conversations between President Kennedy and his brother and when you listen to the Nixon tapes yet they have a certain quality then you listen to the two Kennedy brothers talking about how mean this guy it sounds so quaint to here mean as opposed to some of what we heard on the Nixon tapes yes for that there were other words used to describe problematic figures but it's it's really it brings you back to a different moment in time what about is it possible to get some insights about maybe fresh insights about how a president actually works in other words if you have access to his behavior in the Oval Office his give-and-take often at the moment of decision right how does that add to the record it I think it flushes it out it certainly does that but I think what is more powerful about the tapes at least from my point of view is the way that it brings President Kennedy to life in a way that's unstaged he was masterful and his use of television we have a lot he was our first television president so we have a lot of media about him but there's something about this one of the things I find very moving about the book is the way in which the portrait of Kennedy that emerges from these tapes is so consistent with the portrait that has been drawn over many years of him as someone who was thoughtful funny aggressive warm we could go on a whole list of adjectives but it it I think gives a kind of of there's a veracity to it that's very powerful and I think will be very helpful for students who are trying to learn about Kennedy and what he was like as president did you find his mastery of detail unusual for a president typical for a president how did he handle subject matter I mean this stuff in the book it's all over the lot you should know and so you get to see him in a numb or hear him in a in a number of settings I'll make a statement in lieu of a question he seems extraordinarily in control of the most detailed aspects of policy is with that unusual for the times he was extremely well informed he had a very searching intellect some presidents are are more gifted in this way than others shall we say he yes you know it's very impressive the range of issues that he was dealing with I think the his ability to sort of sort through all of the dimensions of the problem I mean on specific issues one of the things that emerges is how cautious he was about military intervention and really you know really trying to find a moderate way through and that was true on civil rights it was through on many issues so I think on more specific issues you see the substance of the way his mind worked indeed any disagreement Ted before we go to the tape I agree completely but with civil rights a great story is told in the year and four months not too much time at the tapes capture of trying to find a moderate path in the middle of 1962 and to take an aggressive path on civil rights was extremely difficult politically and very unpopular with the majority of voters and then finding a very courageous path forward in in total alliance with the leaders of the civil civil rights seems see if you agree Allan but it seems to be the one area where in his conversation he is acutely aware that like Johnson was later that there is absolutely no political gain in this at all writers only car and yet he's doing it anyway yeah because it's a great thing and and he took his time I mean we've got discussions right here in this room about decisions about civil rights in the campaign and 1960 or early in the administration and then it starts to move even set up the first tape I think related to your questions he saw the presidency is the center of action and he liked to be in that Center and famously he didn't have a chief of staff he didn't have right he wanted to have information flow directly to him and you hear that in these tapes so like here we go we've got one two three four five six tapes one of which is almost fall down funny the first it was recorded by common consent of the participants it's a little dinner just three days after he declared his candidacy in the caucus room of United States Senate and it's Kennedy mrs. Kennedy Ben Bradley and his wife then Antonia we all call Tony and Bradley who was Washington bureau chief of Newsweek at the time brought along one of his reporters basically who later became a public official of more than a little consequence Jim cannon who served President Ford and they decided that evening to make a tape about not his decision to run but about the kind of person he is more than more than anything have a listen and then we'll try to talk a little bit about it then when was the moment where you absolutely were vetting once I started working on I did the same thing in 52 of them died doing may not easy system start I get to supported non-professional much more ready to commit that Center just long long long later finally what I do it what are you doing now let me go all this effort obviously you were Wells do guys live off the fat of the land why do you go into politics I need to reward first is what I hope now you went to law school I've done a little bit more each other when you went to law school and I go I'm dealing with some dead deceased man's estate I'm perhaps if I have divorced kids dream chase one kind or another gun accident you compare that even or let's say more serious where you're participating in the case of the case against the DuPont general Trust case it takes two or three years you tell me that that compares an interest the member of Congress by a labor bill make speeches on policy and I just think that there is no comparison feel good everybody reaches a natural level oscar 100-107 there's anybody the house not like to dance themselves or anybody works for anything my god if you didn't have that power desire in this states may be presented collapsed as a moves to country in the world that's just a part I'm just saying the center of power not power young hunter my person I'm just saying the center of action presents out here interests many many people are not just be had diseases be there Helen one of the things that sometimes been said about President Kennedy is that he could be almost dispassionately analytical in talking about himself what comes through to you this is right as the presidential campaign is beginning and it's almost like he's a third party looking at it yes but what really struck me about the dinner party conversation was how much he enjoyed politics his passion for it and and this is true in the tapes of in the Oval Office as well the delight that he took in political life comes through very powerfully in this and his conception of the presidency he was absolutely right when he said in the 19th century the presidents didn't do much they were involved in tariffs and a slavery issue which was obviously crucial but by the time he sought the presidency it was increasingly seen as a kind of master institution to American political life gotcha feel free to and well I love the dinner party tape I felt so lucky to hear it the first time it was only given to this library I believe in 2007 five years ago we're still gathering the material to study this presidency and it only became available to publish in 2011 with his death so this is hot off the presses and it's so honest they're all good friends they're just talking about why do you do it and it's full of ambition that is for sure it's also full of a lot of I wouldn't say self doubt but self knowledge and he very interestingly talks about how he's a very good different at politician and his grandfather honey Fitz who famously would stand up on a table and sing sweet Adeline whether asked to or not and love to be in a crowd went to the Fenway Park famously and John F Kennedy was an extremely different kind of a politician the only element I can think of to add is this zest for being in the center of national life for its own intrinsic merits quite apart from any any purpose I'm reminded of a quote I think it's Oliver Wendell Holmes that at one point or another I've heard come out of the mouths of many a Kennedy I think it's all that a person is involved in the actions and passions of his at the peril of being judged not to have lived and this guy has a zest for life that is palpable and everything now he's president he's won the election and one of the first crises of course is the desegregation of southern universities for the University of Alabama initially this is from what was going on 50 years ago almost to the day I was just upstairs skyping with a forum at Ole Miss which is marking the 50th anniversary of their rough week this is if you've ever been to the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis Tennessee they have these recordings but this is the president talking with one of the principal faces of segregation at the time governor Ross Barnett the safety of james Meredith the student in question is in is in some doubt someone has been killed at this point in the riot that is unfolding on the campus and they are doing an elaborate dance where President Kennedy is nonetheless insisting that a couple of things have to happen and here is how it unfolds I wish they had the chickens the Commissioner of the Highway Patrol thought Aaron and he's got yeah how I'm not gonna take we don't want there somebody yet out I haven't been able to locate it yeah little here's what happened he went to the doctor's office with this man it was her and just and he got caught on a locate him that if you told me to get he had him to get to all people don't you see honey and he's not then 50 and would be sufficient but I told him by all means to order I never won he had if he needed and I'm sitting there trying and every way it's not consider moving narrative as long as there's any other to ride outside because it wouldn't be safe sir we couldn't consider moving Meredith if we haven't gonna need to restore order outside that's the problem governor well I tell you what I'll do is present I looked at myself when how long it take you to get there our microphone and pillow that you have agreed to food to be remove no no no wait a minute / nur how long he's going to take you to get up there Wow no I tell you if you want to go up there and then you call me from up there then we'll decide what we're going to do before you make any speeches about it well alright you know we got an hour to go and that's not dead we may not have an hour thank you I get updated this managers done D die which one stay please stay please well you see we got to get order up there and that's we've opened to have president please I don't teach you you order credit movement how can I remove and governor when there's a riot in the street he may step out of that building and something happen to my cops movement of those two digits you go ask in order up there then we can do something about marriage around its position but we've got to get somebody up there now to get order and stop the firing and the shooting and when you and I were talking the phone about Meredith we got to get order ever officially can that's right then you and I were talking when they've got the building when they get over there then you are not talk about what's the best thing to do with Meredith all right thank you what is what was President Kennedy seeking to accomplish and can you explain this ballet there's so much happening and I'm glad we got to hear it because you can hear a lot in the tone that you can't always get from reading the transcript and in that very important conversation he's asserting the right of the President of the United States to order the governor of Mississippi and to restore order in a perilous situation james Meredith is in danger for his life also because of angry crowds surging around parenthetically James Meredith had been inspired to register for the University of Mississippi when he heard President Kennedy's inaugural address so there's so much history in the air before playing the tape Tom leaned over and said I wish we could hear the chickens and the previous phone call they're still talking about civil rights but they're politicians and governor Barnett says at the end of a pretty tense call thank you for what you've done for our poultry program and President Kennedy you can really hear it he stifles a laugh because he can't believe that this blowhard has just mentioned the poultry program but in the next in the conversation we heard they're not being polite anymore they're not they're not dancing around they're going right into it and the president is saying you have to do this I should add a story you know in the South at that time Governor Barnett was sort of known as a bit of a dim bulb and two years before during the presidential campaign one of the flash points in the debates that fall involved to Nationals Chinese islands just off the coast of China komoi and Matsu and right after this argument erupted in the campaign Ross Barnett was out politicking one day and the report has asked him governor what about chemo and Matsu and but he looked around sort of lost and said to one of his aides then those two fellers I put on the fishing and Game Commission yeah but if you hear the tape when when Barnett brings up the poultry program you can sort of hear President Kennedy half laughs yes Ellen part of the context of this tape when he says you know I don't go up there and make any speeches until you talk to me first they had had a deal with Ross Barnett the Kennedy brothers that this elaborate scheme by which they would have Meredith register in Jackson and then we've got Ross Barnett at the football game that very day standing up and giving this speech about that was really calling you know we're going to resist the tyranny of the federal government and he's invoking Civil War vintage theories of nullification and interposition he seems to like fold like a cheap suit on the telephone okay but but he really didn't fold and that's what led the President to send in federal troops the National Guard you know I propose that he's supposed one of my favorite stories about President can he's supposed to have said to an equally bad segregationist the mayor of Jackson Mississippi I don't care if you denounce me in public just don't you dare do it in private we actually do on these tapes though that's interesting is Robert Kennedy at one point tells Barnett I've taped that conference so he folds like that and and actually these tapes are the first actually that we're ever publicly released they came out on the rise in forestry books it is an exhibit at the Civil Rights Museum and it is a delight watching people dissolve listening to Governor Barnett at least now that he can no longer do any harm the next tape involves a subject that may be a little arcane the space program but it's offered to show a little bit about what a what a real president sounds like this is President Kennedy meeting in 1962 I believe in the fall a year and a half after he made the announcement in the State of the Union speech of the goal to get to the moon by the end of the decades meeting with a reluctant leader of NASA James Webb and listened closely to the byplay and see if you can get a sense about how a real president pushes his government so I do not I think it is one of the top priority problems but I think it's very important to recognize here that and UFL what you can do with the rocket as you find a Happy Together beyond the earth atmosphere an interface and make measurements several aside the existence of a powerful begin to converging on this Paris and I think it is the top flower you have that very clear some of these other programs for six months or five months and I mean from half of the project the dish is a important for political reasons enactment political reasons and here's what we learned in our they tend to raise a second that the movements a knife is like a second anytime so that our second birthday month kind of priority and it was must be very serious why did we have to take the views flowery not one they are real unknowns as to whether man can't live under the waitress condition that you will now make the move away this is one kind of political for ability I'd like to avoid such as black pepper - I agree may directly apply we don't know a damn thing about the surface of the Moon and we're making a wildest guess this is our little lambda and we could get a terrible disaster from putting something down on the surface of the Moon that's very different than we think it is and the scientific programs that part of that information have to have the highest priority but they are associated with a lunar program the scientific programs that are associated with a lunar program command an enquiry we preview it either sitting on stage standing at 37 billion dollars to find out about state why they sent a million dollars getting fresh water for water or we spent seven billion dollars final update trickle obviously you would put a matter on the defense implication and second point is the Soviet Union as made this attack of the system so that's what we're doing it's like we going to take the view this is the key program that we should find out about there's a lotta there you want to find out about what you see we talk about the throw around the foot between one everything that we do order really be tied into getting all of the bowls and a head of life one can be kind of primitive in space we're joined by God would keep with the teller by the river Yemen space five years ago we believe that's because if they had a booster in the sidelines but you think we ought to get it you know really clear the policy or the decision the top on our program of the agency and one of the two we reach up to the top dollar United States government every condition we ought to take how did they not change anything about that particular please we ought to be clear otherwise should be saying it stays like it's good we ought to know about race and reasonable but by the way talking about overzealous event a Shania in to do it is because hope to beat them Ellen is it really that hard for even a strong president to move this mountain called the government apparently so I think we can conclude I think it's wonderful to see him really getting his point across here that there was no way this was going to be one of the great scientific experiments and obviously as science advisors were interested in all of the different intellectual dimensions of it he wasn't he had a very clear goal I give them a lot of credit there are three stars to that great tape he is leading but there's no doubt about that but his two advisors Webb and we start talking back to him and that is not easy to do in an oval office and which he liked he did and I give him credit for hiring people brave enough to talk back to him and that's captured a lot in these tapes good conversations among smart people and the book also gives a transcript of a conversation a year later we have seen people in which these smart people have almost reversed positions he's saying is this too dangerous should we think more and the science advisors are saying we're going to spin off so much amazing technology we're going to define the 1960s by what we're doing and it's a it's another great conversation I also love the change in mr. Webb a year later because the president basically asked him is this the top priority of your oh absolutely I think he also asked whether it can be done unmanned Kim you know is there a way of doing this you know and the perhaps part of the shift comes from a kind of lessening of Kennedy's own Cold War Ted perspective part of what it what I want to understand better is there this meeting is taking place if I can do the amount that a year and a half after the speech the State of the Union speech and here it is a year and a half later and the government isn't really on board and and you think my god how can that happen as an on-again-off-again employee of the US government I can confirm that is often the case but there's a written document I've seen on display in this library that has him speak writing in more or less the same language what are we doing why isn't it being done right now what can we do in the next 24 hours to admit I mean he really was on it but I think it's worth pointing out that in 1963 which it was a very different year politically from 1962 the the Cold War had calmed down a big notch after the Cuban Missile Crisis and Khrushchev and Kennedy were working pretty closely together to keep it that way and he proposed that the Russians and the Americans have a joint lunar landing and they the Russians did not accept that but it's very interesting to know that he he proposed that setting manners right Tom just quickly to bring another part of the space race to life I want to invite everyone to come to our museum we have the freedom 7 spacecraft and I hope everyone will come see it it's so little it's amazing the Cuban Missile Crisis in an audio sense almost completely documented right 10 what we have for you now is a short on October 22nd 1962 President Kennedy made the famous speech to the country where we heard for the first time something about what was what was happening on that day before he made the speech as he often did as presidents often do he got on the phone to predecessors and one of them was President Eisenhower and first it's interesting to hear the make the mechanics of this kind of a call to a predecessor but because of something that they talk about right at the beginning I want to ask Ellen about it after the tape is played you this is like the pause of the ford-carter debate in 1977 fine just give the there's one I'm going to read a paragraph and then will be a will be okay this is the president general what about what if the Soviet Union Khrushchev announces tomorrow which I think he will that if we attack Cuba that it's going to be nuclear war and what your judgment is to the chances they'll fire these things off if we invade Cuba Eisenhower oh I don't believe they will a point not elaborated on and Ellen what I wanted to ask you when you hear tapes and read transcripts from the Missile Crisis one of the things that fascinates me is the extent to which Berlin was on President Kennedy's mind almost hourly talk about that a little bit and how could somebody like oh here we go to seven now which I think he will that if we attack Cuba that day it's going to be nuclear war and what your judgment as to whether the chances they'll fire these things off if we invade Cuba oh you know if they will in other words you would take that risk if the situation she'll make though what can you do you if this thing is such a serious thing here on our plane that we're going to be uneasy and we know what this thing's happening now all right you've got to use something something may make these people shoot them all I just don't believe this well yeah all right what is I want to keep my own people very alert yeah so hang on tight watch out all right elet talk a little bit about this 50 years later people have forgotten a little bit but how important considerations about Berlin and our allies were throughout the Missile Crisis yeah it's clear there's a wonderful transcript in the book in which President Kennedy himself sort of gives the an overview of what he thinks is at stake in the missiles the deployment of these missiles in Cuba and the concern was that if we were to attack and try to take at to have a strike against these that the Soviet Union would then feel emboldened to take over Berlin and Berlin had been very much was really the issue that was most of greatest concern to President Kennedy and he felt that the Soviet Union would have felt that they were justified in doing so that they couldn't have a Western presence with missiles pointed so close to them if we couldn't tolerate it in our neck of the woods they wouldn't tolerate it in theirs and so throughout the crisis I mean one thing I would recommend is that people not read this before you go to bed and the casual discussions about nuclear war may keep you up we we lived through it and made it but it's it's very sobering but that's the backdrop but it's very present just to elaborate a little bit more doesn't this help us understand that there were people we always knew about Adlai Stevenson until this I hadn't realized if former defense secretary Robert Lovett under Harry Truman McGeorge Bundy the president's national security adviser thought that Berlin was so important that that was why they urged him not to attack or do airstrikes because of the concern of it wasn't about appeasement it was a concern about what would happen in Berlin you're absolutely right the word Berlin recurs repeatedly throughout the hundreds of pages of transcripts from the crisis days and they were all trying to think four and five and six steps ahead and President Kennedy was always ahead a few steps ahead of them but there was no way to not reach a nuclear exchange Khrushchev had extent overextended himself he Cuba's eleven thousand miles from the Soviet Union and he had no ability really to defend Cuba during a long sustained campaign if the United States invaded however it's now known what was not known at the time that the Russians were there many more of them there were about forty thousand Russian troops in Cuba not 8,000 as were estimated and there were actual warhead they had tactical nuclear weapons they had the short-range nuclear weapons that would have wiped out an American invading army on the beaches and about a hundred thousand men had been gathered in Florida and a lot of those men would have we might have had the total number of deaths of the Vietnam War in the 50s thousands in a couple days of an invasion of Cuba and then a nuclear exchange following that in Europe and around the world so thank God President Kennedy was thinking those three or four steps ahead of everyone not always his military people but my favorite transcript for years has been a meeting with the Joint Chiefs of Staff were general Curtis LeMay we say bombs away with Curtis LeMay makes a tasteless crack at the end of a meeting about the situation and he said misery in effect mr. president you're really in a terrible fix here and you hear Kennedy say what did you say and LeMay stupidly repeats him so you're really in a terrible fix here and Kennedy says well in case you haven't noticed you're in it with now we have to wind up a treat and I apologize in advance that we're so near the antic it's not all nuclear war and taxes and and whatever near Otis Air Force Base from which the family often traveled back here from the Cape trying to anticipate a first families need of course is what Staff members and military aides have been doing for thousands of years and also somebody had a special room equipped at Otis Air Force Base I believe in case mrs. Kennedy were to go into labor while they were in on the Cape somehow or another somebody let a picture be taken of this room and the furniture in it that appeared in the paper not a good idea if it's a paper that the president's going to see which he did and this is the resulting conversation with one of his military aides don't forget that airforces boys itself more grief without you silly bastard did you see the post this morning yes sir I'm gonna see that fellas picked you by the band yes sir I think and you see that got furniture they bought from Jordan Marsh what the holiday that the report is in there for a little crazy up there now you know what's going to do any congressman is going to get up nice if they can show $5,000 away on this let's cut them another billion dollar you just sank the airforce budget you crazy up there they crazy that's silly fancy with this picture next to the bed all Lima Paul - and now the thing is I think of the matter is I'm going to get that footage I just told Sylvester you can talk to him I want to find out who paid for that surgery I wanted to go back if you're caught all over then I want that sellers in confident wedded picture taken next to mrs. Kennedy's bed if that's what it is he's a really fast I wouldn't have him running a cat out and that there Colonel house and who let him Lauer Newman in those reporters is he crazy - thank you not all incompetence actually that's throwing money around over though you better look into it an expression when you call me at the end instead it's off why sir this is obviously well this is obviously a puck out there okay when when some the next time somebody asks me what leadership is but Todd we should telephone quickly the follow-up story so this was in the New York Times last weekend and sure enough gentlemen pictured bill Dupuis is still alive and living in New Mexico he wrote to the New York Times and the interesting thing is he never heard how angry the president was there was no repercussions to his career so this is his five minutes of fame perhaps not how he already had him he's lucky because there was discussion of having a move to a lash transferred to Alaska very like an we bring that silly bastard one of the things that I hate most about this Duty is having to call a halt to the proceedings but I have to and I hope we've given you enough to realize that both the book and the CDs inside our gold mines please enjoy them and thank you very much for coming

Channel: JFK Library

Views: 175,975

Rating: 4.603744 out of 5

Keywords: JFK, President Kennedy, Caroline Kennedy, Tom Oliphant, Ted Widmer, Ellen Fitzpatrick, Listening In, Secret Tapes, White House, Politics, History, White House (Building)

Id: 4atwuyf_sMY

Length: 65min 39sec (3939 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 11 2012