Chris Matthews on JFK

good evening everyone and welcome thank you for your patience I'm Tom Putnam director of the John F Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum and on behalf of atomic non-executive director of the Kennedy Library Foundation members of the foundation's board of directors many of whom are here with us tonight and all of my library and foundation colleagues I thank you for joining us this evening let me first acknowledge the generous underwriters of the Kennedy Library forums lead sponsor Bank of America Boston capital the Lowell Institute Raytheon the Boston foundation and our media partners the Boston Globe and WBUR let me also acknowledge two special guests here this evening the first a member of the Kennedy administration Richard K Donahue and also the former chair of the Kennedy Library Foundation board and former United States Senator Paul Kirk and it's captivating new biography Chris Matthews sets out to answer the questions what was JFK like how did he go from being a rich kid and Joe Kennedy's son to becoming the man who saved the country during the Cuban Missile Crisis what was the genesis of this unforgettable man described in the title as an elusive hero in answering these and other queries the book also offers us a glimpse of what Chris Matthews is like we learned about a young Catholic boy who influenced by his father's Republican leanings cried on behalf of Richard Nixon when the 1960 election results were announced and about the man who readily admits that he has never gotten over the loss of John F Kennedy thus initiating him into what he characterizes as a knighthood of the soulful the ideals JFK stood for serve and part as the genesis of mr. Matthews services a Peace Corps volunteer in Swaziland as a presidential speechwriter for Jimmy Carter as a top aide for Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill and is one of the country's most respected journalists he is a hero to many in this room and throughout the nation though in this case less of an elusive Idol than an effusive one in fact one of the books many attributes is how vividly it conveys mr. Matthews exuberant voice a voice that throughout the writing of this biography hurtled through my office phone as mr. Matthews wished first to try out a new theory Tom it's Chris Matthews I think it all begins at choked with LEM Billings that's the moment when Jeff recognizes his own charisma and realizes how effortlessly he could gain loyalty or friends what do you think or to verify a fact Tom Chris Matthews again listened was Smathers on that trip in 56 or to learn more about a source Tom it's Chris explained to me the provenance of these Kenny O'Donnell oral histories they're simply terrific we're honored to have him here in person not separated by phone lines to discuss this new best-selling biography which is on sale in our bookstore mr. Matthews has agreed to sign your copies at the conclusion of the forum and nothing says Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah better than an autographed copy our moderator this evening is Marty Nolan who was a legendary reporter and editor for The Boston Globe from 1961 to 2001 during those 40 years he coined the term Joe Sixpack to define the typical American voter earned a Pulitzer Prize for investigating inconsistencies in testimony from a nominee for a federal judgeship supported by the Kennedy family and secured a spot on President Nixon's enemies list which maybe one might have predicted the latter when mr. Nolan was a young boy growing up right here in Dorchester it's reported that he asked his first tough question at the age of 12 when challenging a nun in his parochial school during more reactionary times sister how do you know Dean Acheson as a communist mr. Nolan has participated in past forums here from the 50th anniversary of the Kennedy Nixon debates to discussions on one of his favorite pastimes professional baseball we thought of him and another of his famous lines this past September when our hopes for the hometown team were dashed the Red Sox killed my father he once stated and now they're coming after me first one might argue that the same Irish wit helps connect John Kennedy and Chris Matthews and allow me one brief example from the last time mr. Matthews spoke from this stage his co-panelists that day EJ Dionne was explaining that one study suggested in the 1960 election that JFK got 95 percent of the Irish Catholic vote nationally and then quipped that one doesn't need a study to understand that JFK also received 120 percent of that vote in Chicago to which Chris Matthews without skipping a beat replied yes he always pulled well with what we call the Catholic triumphant among the glowing reviews of mr. Matthews new book was this comment posted on the Internet I just finished reading Jack Kennedy elusive hero and there's a deep lump in my throat Chris Matthews captured in his biography what has been missing in so many other books about John F Kennedy his soul and short and this fresh and compelling contribution to the Kennedy canon Chris Matthews accomplishment is nothing short of triumphant ladies and gentlemen please join me in welcoming Marty Nolan and Christopher Matthews well Chris I was watching a lot of television all those guys running for president you know the Republicans and several of them said well when I get into office and national security I'm going to rely on my generals I'm going to listen to my generals I'm going to do whatever the generals think is a good idea and I thought well they haven't read chapter 14 of Chris Matthews book about an October Surprise in 1962 some of his generals had a different idea from the president well you know what by the way Jerry Dougherty is here I remember you from tip days nice to see it Paul Kirk of course senator I forgot you're a senator I'm sorry it was good it was great it was unforgettable actually and a gestures here and Connie kissed unlike a lot of people I know and one of my heroes is here money no one you know a Georgia hate Protestant French Georges Clemenceau the French leader and where were once said war is too important to be left to the generals and every time I hear when these characters say I'm going to wait in here for the generals on the ground I Cain seems to like that formulation you don't know anything it's good to learn something I guess the and that's a pretty colossal statement actually the dude the news I was able to pull together about the Cuban Missile Crisis we all grew up with it my brother was at Holy Cross year ahead of me and he told me about the confession lines this was a time that all of us who grew up hiding under those little school desks when the nun told us it was 15 minutes to the first flash and the general judgment would follow quickly this was all tied together with our religion and it was all one big history to religion current events class when when we got under those desks I always was a wise guy back then I said suppose they get the air raid and the fire drill mixed up but we'd be out there to greet the incoming or would be under the desks whatever I was thinking like that and I I still AM I know but here's Jack Kennedy a guy who had learned the lessons of not trusting people through all those years of getting harder back operations he learned not to trust experts thank God he did experts these guys weren't experts they thought nuclear war was like any other kind of war MacArthur had come to him a couple weeks before with an idea you know I really was frustrated back in the Korean War because I wanted to outfit all my infantrymen with a holster mounted nuclear weapons because that would give him a great morale boost and Kennedy of course was babying the guy he said you know let's get it straight it would shoot 100 to clear 120 yards in front of you and then we go up in a puff I mean even Kennedy in those days completely understood the reality of nuclear fallout and and nuclear material you don't just shoot it in front of you and you like it goes up if you don't hit the guy like a ray gun or something and yet this was the mindset of the new other the people around Curtis LeMay wanted a first strike you know what a first strike was that's when you hit all the Soviet Union and all the satellite countries in one big shot and kill everybody that was his preferred reaction to the situation Kennedy knew that if they moved on Berlin which Chris de Burgh warned him if you were in Cuba where Cuba we're going on Berlin right away he knew we'd be in the first use for a shoe situation then which means we go to tactical because we're facing 350,000 Red Army troops surrounding our 15,000 NATO troops we had to go to first year so he knew all these horrible next steps in this Rube Goldberg reality we were facing and so he said wait a minute I read barber talked but don't take the first step they'll take the next and we're there because leaders do what they have to do if they don't stop that clock somehow the generals are just thinking oh we got more nukes than they do so we'll hit him hard we'll win relatively and Kennedy said we call ourselves civilized what are you talking about here and Bobby said I don't know I feel like Tojo we're going to hit them first and so it was a great example why we elect our commander-in-chief it's an amazing system the founding fathers figured I wish the the Tea Party types would remind themselves or if they ever knew the essential aspect of our Constitution which is it's it's us ruling the country and I was deciding a warrant peace especially with the age of the nuclear age upon us and so I think the Kennedys story in here is so overwhelming that this guy was able to stand up he actually took his first big step Marty when he said no when he found himself surrounded by dick Bissell and now in Dulles and Lemnitzer and those guys who kobold against him in effect in the Bay of Pigs to convince him once we put 1,500 middle class Cuban exiles on that beach and a Bay of Pigs that somehow they would win it but the trick was that convinced the president go that for so that when it did happen he'd be forced to bring us to our troops in and engage the Cubans which is what they wanted to happen and it turns out the Kennedy made the biggest mistake he could have made it was a learning experience but horrendous one all we had to ask was how many Cuban regular troops will be there the first day to meet the 1500 exiles and so we they asked 25,000 this wasn't even a chance to establish a beachhead and if they had gotten and they sold they'll just go into the Escambray mountains however you pronounce it and he'd said well the problem is there's 80 miles of swamp separating the beach for the mountains they lied to him this guy dick Bessel an Ivy League buddy his and who really liked him but he wanted to trick him but he did he minute later he'd lied to him they tricked him in Kennedy that moment said no I've made this big mistake to go along with this thing with this moment I say no I'm not invading Cuba because he said we got Russian troops there I don't know how many would have to kill we're going to war with Russia and I know Khrushchev I just I know a bad Khrushchev this guy would have to fight to we'd go into war with with the would have a world war and I do believe that in 1989 when the end when they when I was there in Berlin in the world changed when we saw that Berlin Wall coming down I said began to realize we got through this thing those of us who hid under a school desk because of Kennedy without nuclear war which we all thought growing up by the way would sooner or later happen let's remember that nobody wants to remember that but we all figured sooner or later they'd be nuclear war there had to be both sides of nuclear weapons had always been a war we had two world wars would have another one Kennedy stopped died he got us through it that's what I think Ted Kennedy told me once that his grandfather honey Fitz was a grand man for taking the kids around to walk around Boston to learn the history and JFK must have been on that trip because several times he quoted from Boston statues the city on a hill is a phrase that Reagan adopted was originally with John Winthrop aboard the Arbella out here and JFK used it to lecture the Massachusetts legislature and not stealing too much you know and then the and I covered the night of his big birthday party at the Commonwealth Armory in 1962 when he was on his way to meet true shot for the first time and he said I am in earnest I'm going to quote us a phrase written on one of our statues in a statement from a vigorous and distinguished New England there William Lloyd Garrison I'm an Ernest I will not equivocate I will not retreat a single inch and I will be heard as a great moment and another monument I think he looked at was the Robert Gould Shaw Memorial right across from the Statehouse and I thought that just today when I walked by it and I thought of the statement when it's dedication William James the great Harvard philosopher came up with the idea of the moral equivalent of war and at that dedication and he said we need a kind of civic courage not the gregarious courage that Colonel Shaw and his brave men showed and that made me think of the Peace Corps of which you are an alumnus what did Kennedy say that made you sign up for the Peace Corps well you know I think I think the thing about the Peace Corps was such a well I reminded myself in the Peace Corps when I could what would Jack do he'd have some fun first of all that's a big part of it I was in the Peace Corps during the Vietnam War so I had a lot of regular guys with me you think so there was alternative service and a lot of us chose that and it it was positive his problem argot is patriotic and it was a lot of adventure and kennedy must have imagined there's this great moment I found at the camp outs they were down at that hotel down on Market Street in San Francisco the old one along the Market Street there and they were rub he was scared dead because I was catching up he was helping Nixon in 60 and he was getting scared he said about a sand bar tonight and of tides going out and they're catching me and this I kissed Nixon's pushed the panic button let's working Ike was amazingly popular as he was retiring is that proper idea Frank popped up again at 60 and he said oh my god this is close and he says but I got to tell you about that speech I'm giving tonight that's headed to Cow Palace and here these two guys who had going through a war together close friends talking about this this new thing where guys like him would instead of going to war would go over around the world and really try to change it and and I really thought that that was something passe I wanted to go to Africa I always wanted to go out there I mean I probably goes back from Ramar in the jungle and Tarzan and and African Queen and all that stuff but I want to go to Africa don't want to apply the Peace Corps two or three times one time he wanted to send me to Venezuela I said boring any want to send me to Afghanistan learn Farsi or something they don't do that and I'm sure he would have prevented everything for going wrong over there that's right and I and I said now and of course I got one a facing me and I keep saying no not and that's not my cup of tea you know and I keep said no I bet it's something a little more African you know so I finally I wanted to go to Cambodia cuz there's a neutralist country I thought it was going a little left then so I would go over there but there they weren't in that country and they finally gave me some other country and I said no no no no no and finally I got Swaziland and I said got him his graduate school at North Carolina and I think this is really doing something exciting and I got to tell you change your life anybody here was the peace anybody here to Peace Corps change your life right the best thing ever happen to you my grandmom was named our grant and for Northern Ireland and one time she said to me up she had the brogue she was like mrs. Doubtfire only the real the real thing gender-wise and uh and she said really she was a formula boy and she's one of his women he's to stare at you you know over the dinner table and then she uh she said when I was getting there but getting ahead in Washington I got a capital held capital help like barnacle a Capitol Hill cop job and eyes work off real quick and she I know it's embarrassing so uh and then she said it was Africa wasn't it so it changed your life it gets you up your butt and gets you out of your rut and you start looking at your religion differently you start looking at the world differently you start to think about other people who are looking at things differently than you and then you find the common and you find yourself in the middle of nowhere the bunch seventeen African guys black guys you're a white guy you're different than them and yet you know them all personally and your rice got him here I'm where he wanted us to get we're connecting here I was teaching business and I'm sure these guys are all zillionaires now but I was up at a motorcycle and I was bumming around Africa and you can't ask for anything better they do that for two years bumming around and up and down he stirs east coast to Africa now you were probably more danger than I was at Fort Dix but but I did keep the Bolshevik hordes out of New Jersey I was unfortunate I thought of myself as a bush watch egg repair you know teachin capitalism and he's out there teaching communism and I want to get having heroic notion of myself even tie the chapters in this book are all concise there they the one or two words I like that and there's one called Bobby and of course I covered Bobby a lot and I was when I was reading it I was thinking you know there's a big gap here in our perception of the kennedy cabinet and it is this because JFK appointed his brother now there's nothing wrong with nepotism I know where I am here but to his to this high office he almost felt forced to appoint total strangers total strangers to state and defense and I wonder if that if he regretted that he did you quote him as saying at JFK wish you did sent Bobby to the CIA or so else but isn't that a thought that if if he had people he knew and trusted at state and defense the Vietnam Enterprise might have not got underway yeah well yeah I definitely made it a hot button decision to keep Dulles haven't talked about CIA and I think that was depression and course it was almost like the Federal Reserve in those days there was it wasn't just that you know the Hoover was out there snooping around all those years since he went out with Inga Binga but and always snooping around on the Kennedys and everybody else and used the stuff against them but I think it was also I think it was primarily you never know internal motive ever but I think it was the notion of a continuity he had won the election by nothing basically it was a 50/50 election and it turned on it it was a good electoral college victory but a popular vote was even-steven and I think he thought he should pick a couple people like Doug deal and an establishment a cabinet member a sub cabinet member from the ISO administration by the way I creel II did not want that to happen i express the word don't want anybody joined this guy's team and make it look bipartisan I think he also wanted McNamara there a Republican a nominal Republican it's at the Pentagon he wanted those two Republicans and they brought dotty right Rusk is a great example of a guy he had no idea he was and I think his great regret that he was an administrator he wasn't a policy guy he wasn't a gutsy guy and he would never give any advice really and he kept asking for advice from Doug Ruskin he wouldn't get any I think he really liked McNamara he really liked trusting him and he loved Bobby of course and uh and he ended up liking Dale and although Dylan was wrong about the Cuban Missile Crisis Dylan wanted to go in there and bomb him he was in with the Hawks and McGeorge Bundy was a hawk and but he wanted to have both sides I mean he really was smart enough to handle a conflict of opinion I think he was totally unlike W to be obvious I mean he was curious and he liked a good argument he want to hear from the academics he also liked Lincoln he wanted to balance out the academic liberal guys like Walter Howard Joint Economic with a Doug Dylan established in Wall Street guys so we can hear both sides and he liked to do that and he liked to play the politics of it too I can't he was a gut conservative Jack I don't think Teddy was but he was a gut concerned who had to sort of teach himself liberalism and learn the arguments and broaden is thinking but inside I think he was a pretty good traditional conservative about a lot of things especially communism his whole life that leads me the next question I do recall that JFK once said about the people Americans for democratic action all big Cambridge and Manhattan and Berkeley people said I'm not comfortable with those people and the earlier by auguste herballs was an example perfect you couldn't stand balls and he couldn't stand guys that would give these liberal speeches and when you're just two in the room together Joe why you give it yeah why you give me the speech yeah any and he just couldn't believe they would and he had and he also had that Irish defiance of the academic intellectual or the establishment think period and he would root for the underdog and he had a sort of tribal connection very hard to decipher with Joe McCarthy very hard because the family connection the old man's connection the sisters connection Bobby's kids connection with him Bobby's a feel a strong affection for him but I keep reminding people as I doing the book Bobby wrote the sensor resolution against McCarthy it is not so simple they were in a very difficult bind there in terms of this Commonwealth Kennedy's feelings about they go in too far the Bobby antipathy towards a roy cohn and especially Roy Cohn's relationship with Roy shot with David shine that ridiculous thing that got completely out of hand and McCarthy was completed involved with that it was a total embarrassment besides being outraged the whole thing the enemy of Bobby didn't like that but yet he stuck with Joe to the great yeah and he went to the grave he went to the frame and he went to the great Bobby was such a loyalist and by the way if he's not a hero this book I didn't write it right but what a brother I mean oh no he saved his life enough in 51 over in the far east he got a Jag second episode at least public episode of Addison's disease 106 temperature and Bobby out of nowhere like a st. Bernard comes out of nowhere and saves his brother and gets into a military hospital and it finally Jack it was a bit of leadest about his youngest kid suppling said my god he's not just pious and churchy yeah he's my protector and I'm real is an amazing development for the brothers they're the real Profile in Courage was taking on the ambassador and it was a deserves old rheticus Kenny O'Donnell understood the Kennedy said it takes a candy to challenging Kennedy and old Joe was just getting too much in the campaign and it's 52 we thought hire a bunch of hacks and kick them in the butt that's not how you beat the beat Henry Cabot Lodge you have to have a very sophisticated campaign that picks out the communities of people that left Boston the BC law grads and Harvard law grads we're Irish retain had moved out beyond Boston were very independent their politics you had to reach those pockets of support you couldn't just run Boston against the rest of the Commonwealth or you would lose you had a pincer him go to the right Amman the Cold War go to the left a moment jobs it took a sophisticated campaign that Kenny and Bobby had to put together and the old man wasn't capable of it and yet you're right he had to keep him out of the campaign the earlier biographers of JFK would generally just describe his change in positions as growth remember growth had been James McGregor Byrnes Arthur Schlesinger Ted stormy move left yeah grow to have what growth yes we would call it flip-flopping today I think isn't that right I mean it's hard to start this later like she's able to get Ruth to agree with me but you know but there was some core in him dig Donna who's here and dick Donahue gave the best description of the reaction of ordinary mortal politicians to Theodore H white on the night before the election it's in Teddy whites making of the president of 1960 and Boston Garden is jammed I was there I have a wonderful photograph that Ed Kelly the globe took of the spotlight shining on Kennedy and jig Donnie who says to Teddy white look at all those guys that white described as these pasty faced predatory politicians who said and Dick says they're looking at Jack and said he's got some trick doesn't he yeah if I can learn that trick I can be president - right there was something that was not the trick now it wasn't growth it was compartment will you tell us what it was what was the trick well that's the elusive part Jackie and of course you know you Jack Kennedy when I've been able to figure out and the reason I thought I could write the book after I decided I wanted to try was he was very loyal to old friends he wasn't a you know an overwhelmingly faithful husband he was difficult but a Jackie completely in love with him and a man who could earn love in a different kind of way but he was a great friend he he could dispense with staff people as he had to but he was so loyal to the old pals like LEM Billings who as the old man Joe said moved in with his tattered suitcase when he's a teenager and never left in a room at the white house figure that went out in a room there he was always there didn't have to have a pass to get it they know of the guards knew him and he had read Fay of course and Chuck Spaulding had the sort of chemistry relationship with him and Charlie Bartlett and and he didn't like new friends he had a few likes Mathers but from he met in the Congress through the old man basically down in Florida but Hialeah racetrack really but he liked the old buddies as Jackie said in that incredibly revealing interview with Ted Ted theater white in the week after jack was assassinated she told what did she know Jack Kennedy she knew him she loved him even with all the difficulties she loved this guy as a guy and she seemed to get him almost objectively which is an incredible love if you think about it to understand a bird despite all the difficulties and the unfaithfulness the ability to love a person as they are she seemed to have that she said this kid this handsome guy with the tan and everything everybody thought had it made she knew it didn't have it made she knew he was still inside the sick lonely kid really lonely who had been left alone and spent so many months and years really in infirmaries in hospitals thinking he wasn't going to get past his teenage years think he had leukemia but Bobby used to save a mosquito bit of the mosquito to be dead I mean this guy had everything wrong with him he'd all those diseases alone were congenital the colitis the bad stomach the the back injury that was only the injury came later he had actually had a congenital back problem that got worse and worse because of bad treatment and bad surgery he just once said to her I wish I had more good now if you think about a guy who everybody envies he said I wish I had more good days because so many of his days were just in pain and so much of his growth came from not being a jock like he pretended to be but being an intellectual as a kid a kid who read and read and read the life the history of World War one when he's 14 years old church all the world crisis the New York Times he read he got it probably I guess it showed and read it and reported is one of his remedies talked about he would lay down and just try to distill each article and try to get the heart out of each article not just read the newspaper a guy who who really was curious about everything Jackie said in these new tapes he would stop getting dressed and read and read he read all these newspapers and he was always trying to figure things out with everybody a deeply of curious guide to the day died and I think that's the key tome and I think Jackie understood that about him and but I was able to write this almost because these 12 guys around him all his life all had their separate memories of when I sort of tried to with their recollections sort of create a holograph in the middle of all that like theater-in-the-round they could all reproduce them and Judge Reggie just wrote me the most wonderful note last night he you know bicky's of Vicki Kennedy so died and he said and he was an old ally of Jackie said you brought him back you know I can't get a better letter than that reading your book eggs religion just doesn't seem to be as big an issue in American life today I mean certainly doesn't disqualify him just qualify any when although governor Huntsman Governor Romney may find otherwise but I was really struck by the statement that Eleanor Roosevelt made to Les Hyman it was just the same Lester Hyman who was an aide to Governor Endicott Peabody was chairman of State Committee yeah he is so funny listening I mean I talked to him did she go he goes to see Eleanor Roosevelt and then when she says we don't want the Pope living in the White House do we whoa you got a Marty you know this like I know there's an anti-catholic thing for Ellis was full right very much let's not be coming does anybody read the New York Times occasionally threat I mean I'm sorry that it is existed yet Harry Truman had a better line he said he had his doubts about Senator Kennedy and he said it's not the Pope it's the pop but this religiously I mean I just just for the heck of it I went downstairs here and looked at the at the the acceptance speech at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum in 1960 and a good 20% of it as to is Kennedy saying don't worry the bishops and the Pope aren't going to tell me what to do tell that was a really big let me talk about two things about religion because anybody here is Catholic fine sub will find this fascinated by Jack and his religion it's it's I I am actually well overwhelmed by what I've been able to dig up and the religious thing he thought of course in Massachusetts it was probably a plus he was able to rally a lot of people tribally basically in 52 against lodge once he was able to connect as a person worthy to take on lodge and as good a man as he was in terms of potential statesmanship and ability to represent the state the Commonwealth he was able to take advantage of his background obviously but once he hit the world the country he I think he was taken he was just overwhelmed by this anti-catholicism compile system out there I mean it did the 56 convention guys like Sam Rayburn when he threw it to the Oklahoma delegation so they could screw him they know what they're doing I mean he was ready to win that thing and I he's about to take to take the lead over key far from they threw they threw it to the gore delegates so that the old man Gore would throw his delegates to what his fellow his senator from Tennessee Tennessee so they saw the game these guys were playing at that moment Jack realized two things he had to become a total politician you had to get other politicians to do what he wanted to do he had to become a bit intimidating not just charming charisma is one thing but you did how to use the backroom stuff to and that's we needed Bobby and he know he's gonna have to twist some arms to win the nomination as was when primaries and he began to realize he had to become as he called a total politician at that point but also rises up against these Protestant guys who were willing to screw him at the end he knew that he realized he said my god these guys take religion seriously when it comes this so what happened was he thought he'd overcome it win in Wisconsin what he went out there and old Cronkite goes on their television that night and does the income tire election victory by him over Humphrey which he really won a substantial victory against as just the Catholics coming out for him Kennedy was ripped over that okay there's a great tape of it India and a drew a comment the druid a documentary called the primary we actually see him sitting there smoking with his little thin cigars watching Cronkite do the old oh he got the Catholics so what yeah and and basically one of the people said at the time we got nothing done in Wisconsin now we got to go to West Virginia the great irony of course is by going to West Virginia he really did lock it up before the convention but there de minute the people Lou Harris poll added one word to his poll which was the guy's a Catholic all of a sudden it went from six sixty five thirty five to sixty forty the other way so religion was a problem for the guide and of course Humphrey the hump I'm sorry comes out and he does his uh give me that old-time religion is the campaign theme song which is right out and hurried the wind that he's with the other guy he's with Frederic March in that movie and you know it big man Henry old Hubert know how to play the religion card so Jackie Chris got played rougher that he brought an FDR jr. and they hit him on his lack of a war record and they played it pretty tough and they wanted but a lot of it was I think Jack was very honest about his religion in West Virginian because he was where Al Smith wasn't yeah he admitted it okay I'm a Catholic is Bobby would say hang a lantern on your problem okay I'm a Catholic let's talk about it so we went down he thought he had a beat that he gets down to Southern California rise that norman vincent peale good all power of positive thinking is organizing a big event at the Mayflower Hotel in DC right in public basically organizing the prides against the Catholics mm-hmm pretty obvious no secret there and Nixon Kennedy rise he's got to fight this thing so he goes to the used administer it's a Bob Strauss once told me a great story the former chair that he got the word from somebody in the Kennedy camp get me the ugliest Protestant ministers you can put him in the first row so a way and then Kennedy walked in all by himself without an entourage which is always the smart boys come in alone and and he also the other thing he was concerned about that night is he had brought his brown shoes instead of his dark shoes his black shoes he was mad at Dave powers for that because Jack was something of a close one Cindy and Doug and he was concerned about that and of course Dave powers who could get away with murder with Kennedy said will you'll be behind a podium nobody L noticed so but Jack had that on it's more but he went in there he basically figured there's a legitimate concern about the Catholic Church and there's a legit of illegitimate Thursday the real concern is who's going to be your boss and of course the Catholic Church Casely gets involved in secular matters and sometimes they have to be sort of disengaged by Catholics and told back off this is a this is Caesars not the this is not yours and back off it has to be done in America and it's done regularly now and Jack had to do it but then once he convinced himself that he had convinced the serious doubters then he went they said there's bigots out there then the biggest by the way showed up the last week of the campaign and although Kennedy benefited from his religion in the big cities as we all know in Chicago and Philly where I'm from he he got hurt and he look at the map it started around Ohio right out there to Nebraska that's where it began to hurt him and note they call him the silent bigots and Kennedy's with Teddy white that night he says I'm angry course later he said I was hungry but he was angry yeah and it began to it caused the very close likes as for his own personal religion a friend of mine Andy a thigh who was Kip O'Neill Tip O'Neill sun-soaked law partner told me a great story which I dug up it is true here's Jack with Inga Arvid his girlfriend this beautiful European Absolut movie star literally a movie star back in when he's in the Navy and intelligence and he'd been sent down to Charleston because he'd been messing around with her and Jagger Huber said she's a spy because she had her picture taken in his picture with Hitler I could go into that later but she wasn't the spy and so they put him down in Charleston to get away from her but she followed him down there there for days shacked up at the Fort Sumner hotel and this is my funny story about Jack Cade they're together for four days and they the only time they leave the hotel is to go to church what's up you got to love this guy you know a lot of this story I've been able to figure out about him was just along those lines he was very devotional almost old church about his religion anybody Catholic here will know what I mean old church meaning lighting candles for his brother Joe which he was very devoted to going over to visit the grave of kick his beloved who is so close to me he lost the closest people coming early in life and right and he liked all the Kennedys you know them uh very close to those who are passed away they do feel that family crossing from life to death they do feel it all together it's a really a profound thing they're all part of the family and Jack was very he'd be thriving along the car with Mark Dalton his first campaign Maggie so what you're thinking about Jackie something about Joe and and he would go off and sneak off after the Harvard Columbia game in at 63 up here and he would go off to the gravesite in uh in Brookline and visit the grave of Patrick who they lost few hours after he's born and Jack was really emotional obviously about that and he would do things like go to confession to the very end um he didn't have to go to confession nobody's watching he'd go to confession right to the end of his life and he'd usually had the Secret Service I've heard a couple of counts honest time I never got it quite clear for the book but I got it clear enough he would some some people would say you know some priests one night said I'm at confession good evening mr. president he didn't like that that was a little too little too much information but I know he but he did go to confession to the end and he would like to have a Secret Service guy wait in line for him so he wouldn't like be standing there all day but he I've also heard theories that he would get a couple guys with knowing on accents around him so he could mix it up a little online so you hit the priest wouldn't know who was talking to him but he could probably have figured it out disgustin here but he would do that he would go to Mass his whole life he really never didn't go to church on Sunday ever when nobody was watching so it's fascinating to me I find it kneeled every night at pray and when Dave powers told me in this building years ago you'd pray every night I go okay so somebody running it was like one of my editors was Joyce she said be careful here you don't know he pretty nice you got to say he said okay he said so I was a little took a little edge off it then I read Jackie's tapes a few months three weeks ago she had it in there almost condescendingly like oh we superstitious about pray every night like a little boy but he did every night and LEM Billings talked about I went back and read that were all histories LEM Billings said he prayed every night near his beds at his bedside he had that old church like I got it - all right I think most Kathy says we're Catholic you know we don't know it's the turbulence in the airplane but there's but you know we are Catholic you cannot get it out of us you know and uh and it's there and whatever we was doing in his life in these other compartments he had a true marriage with Jackie and he had a true relationship with God that it's very hard to figure except that all his life was in these compartments and they only came together I think at war and in the Cuban Missile Crisis when he had to face everything as one soul and that's what I find fascinating and what I've been able to put together about a guy who really was this person in life and the loyalty he he got wasn't just Catholic although I must tell you that one time Bobby Kennedy's campaigning for somebody in Brooklyn he's a senator and bilberries his driver and and bilberry so I know this is some churches here we're going to get to the evening mass knee goes no not that one not that one I thought that was a Catholic Church - did that finally Bobby says to me says Marty I think God's gonna forgive you and me but he's not going to forgive bill Barry because we're going to miss mess yeah the loyalty had you came up with something from that Bobby said that vast army of Kennedy partisans were unpaid that nobody gets paid now nowadays you'd be called before the Federal Election Commission to be violating six kinds of mccain-feingold well how dare you use oil tea in politics you're supposed to hire somebody right that was amazing and that was new because as you quote Tippa Tip O'Neill saying the Kennedy party right Kenny party was a big thing and I think it's so well Kirk's here Paul Kirk showed me you know it's it's about loyalty to the family it's lonely this candidate it started by necessity like most things in life when he ran in 46 he faced the Tip O'Neill crowd that Mike Neville candidacy he was going to win he was the big star in Cambridge Kennedy had to put together a campaign and once again was smart it was almost like the Obama campaign in O eight against Hillary Clinton can't win them big centers I mean Obama lists every state to help every major state knows primaries except Illinois you got to go around the edges like Kennedy so he wouldíve he said okay I come in second in every one of the towns and I'll win that's right and so you know won't be Cotter won't be Neville but but I'll win at second in all those places it said Bobby up to Italian neighborhood and you know in Russo you know we'd have that he would come in second up there maybe a distant second but he would and Bobby did that sort of hard work up there so it was all those things about forming your own party no I sort had this apocryphal notion I'm not even sure it happened but I have this notion of you went into a Kennedy storefront out of curiosity somebody would grab you and say why don't you start doing some work here we got to put you to work and start writing letters I care who you are write some letters of the guy who is in here yesterday thanking them on for coming by on behalf of the family or something they knew the trick in politics it's not a trick it's human nature get people working the minute you get people working you get them invested Machiavelli figured this out 500 years ago it's loyalty and politics doesn't come from people doing your favours people are generally ungrateful it's from having invested yourself in something bigger than you that you were always loyal to as an old cop would count and one said to me you know why the poor guy loves this country because it's always God and and when you have given to the Kennedys whether it's a 60 campaign with a PTA 109 tide clasp or whatever you feel that all your life because you gave something to something it's like a service guide field or service woman it's the big thing in your life is what you've given not what you've gotten and so the Kennedys understood that and so they built a party based on giving it is asked nod it is that it's that line that's not what you can get what what you can give and I think it and in 52 ad ever told him you got to do it on your own thank you I don't know when they go tied to you said Debra's running for reelection and Bobby and Kenny went on form their own campaign and when Debra came begging them can we unite our campaigns they said nice try Mike typical Jackie said Bobby you tell him because because Jack Bobby was always getting the job Jack would say go see Mike the sound tell them to go public with this endorsement he'll more missile rhythm get off the pot if you're not going to do it you guys and he'd say and keep me out of it Bobby would look back at him and say thanks jack because Bobby had to be the ruthless one all the time and Jack was calling the shots now you've worked more recently since you left Swaziland yes for Jimmy Carter and Tip O'Neill and I maybe would favor a lot of like weren't they have rehab Brett I was just thinking of presidential and congressional relations because Jack did get along with whatever difficulties he said with John McCormack they were not that serious and he had plenty of friends in the house I liked tip and others and and Mike Mansfield Eddie Bowen Eddie BOE Eddie but Eddie Boland who who was supposed to manage Ohio which Jack never let him forget he said the plates I get more of applause and fewer votes than any other state and I was thinking because you were there when Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan would say okay after five o'clock were friends let's have a drink and we don't see that much nowadays do we no and I think it's a you know I it's not a good time and I think that just to be not sentimental about it like give you a good sense and good sentimental stories about tip and Reagan the the way that worked was this and it's the way it doesn't work now and it's somewhat mechanics when you win an election dramatically like they did the Republicans didn't ad and Tim could say all the time the speaker all with Aidan when a mandate Murray story say it's not a mandate it's not a mandate they just it was Carter blew it you know it tip realized the speaker realized that they'd won the election they carried the Senate they carried effectively the house when we had the Dixiecrats then the bull weevils they had the numbers so he said I'm going to pose them but I'm not going to put up obstructions I'm not going to spend a lot of time using the parliamentary tricks to screw them I'm not going to play that game the voters had their vote we'll have the election and we had the election so we're gonna have some results here that's what you should have the voters should know that if they vote a certain way they get a reaction and then after he won the the eighty-two race picking up 26 seats a Reagan came to him I haven't got this fully reported I mean Tommy O'Neill and somebody told me that Reagan said let's go for a walk on the South Lawn and Reagan basically offered him a democratic solution to Social Security so so he knew that the way where they both these guys that when you win an election that means the next deal is in your favor but there has to be a deal the trouble the Tea Party people is they don't want to deal they don't want any deal ten to one won't work nothing it ain't going to be that way it's going to be no deal and so but the whole idea of coming to Congress is to make a deal they think the word deals bad they think compromises bid they don't understand that that's why we have an assembly of people coming together so there'll be 51 as Thomas Jefferson said a majority of one is a majority and they don't want to have that majority rule and that's what's really going wrong in the system and unfill the voters untangle this and say no we want you to go there and make the best deal you can for the conservative side but we want you to make this government work and they have the voters haven't said that yet to those people well as Abe Bogota said to Robert Duvall at the end of the Godfather you know nothing personal strictly business right at any disagreement and then with business right that's not doing their job before we let these good folk ask questions that you got to read the book there's some great stuff about where ask not comes from and there are other things but tell us at the end of the book Chris relies on two of the most darling people who's ever appeared in Washington Mary McCrory and Daniel Patrick Moynihan I think the exchange was Mary said to Pat well we'll never be will never laugh again and Pat says oh of course we're going to laugh again Mary but we'll never be young again and Pat told you a young assistant secretary of labor to President Kennedy who made Pennsylvania Avenue really look Parisian that is order what did Pat with a very generous appreciation to you I love Pat Monahan me Tim worked for him Tim really lucky to have that experience and I I once met him and I just I'm just overwhelming he's the only senator by the way it ever said call me Pat I met most senators say that titles ocala what a senator good house well right you know yeah and I don't mind that they earn it but he said Pat which is just you know Pat money it says right so I still call him senator but he came up to you one time we're talking about Sindhi guys we've never gotten over it which I believe and he looked at me says you've never gotten over it from an AI it was kind of a knighthood kind of thing I felt like he had brought me in and because he was a first-degree relative the Kennedy Minister he was there not a first you actually thirty degrees if you touch the person yeah but he he was really see Jack Kennedy did a lot of little things as I talk about the book that he he would like it put bunny mao and rachel melhan who was Jackie's clothes Federer helped her restore the White House said that Jack personally told her how he wanted the Rose Garden made that he went to the trouble saying I wanted thousand people there I want to pronounce 1000 people I want to have three steps I want the top step for the person I honor the stand above me here I mean this is great stuff she talked about how he up and Knight up and on the Cape she had taken his boat over some day and started talking her about this stuff he had a first-hand interest in making Pennsylvania Avenue as Sean said Lee's a a beautiful Avenue further for the inaugural parades not this waffle shop and firecrackers stored junk pile that honky tonk it was all his years growing up although I mean your high school you love that stuff because hey great let's stop here on the bus you know let's get some firecrackers but uh I mean oh it was was waffle shops and firecracker joints enough now it's if you go there at night now it's absolutely beautiful a Pennsylvania Avenue it's almost it's French at beaux-arts building the Willard is gorgeous at night in the in those buildings all along they are fabulous and and even the Reagan building fits in it's always one of the great ironies of our time that Reagan has this gigantic bureaucratic building there but he sure does it was morning well we're gonna have questions from these nice people are gonna ask a nice concise question and you know if you start filibustering take a hike present you off yeah get up to the microphone there's two microphones in the aisle here good evening you spoke about our legislators not doing not compromising and the electorate has to in the next election get them to do so could you describe how you think that process could possibly happen I don't want to create any headlines about the current complement of troops on the Republican side I I cannot believe I live in a country that it's come down to those two on that side it it's astounding it's astounding it's up I guess it reminds me as a Philly guy of gene Mauck and the wit and the g-wiz kids I mean they're coming right up then they got the magic numbers about two and they lose 12 I mean I don't know how the Republicans can do this I mean you're familiar with that kind of thing up here - I know it does I don't know how you boot it like this I mean it's going to be a closest heck election next year and it is going to be close with a 9% unemployment rate it just is any historian anybody knows any knows how close is going to be Pennsylvania is in play it is in play and if they miss Pennsylvania the Democrats cannot win 20 states yeah so I mean anybody doesn't think that people are willing to vote against an incumbent where they because they have questions about the opponent is wrong this country treats politics like baseball the guy on the mound is the one that has to deliver the guy in the you know and the bullpen we don't know what he's going to do but they're really looking at the guy on the mound so the Obama people can make a lot of shots against the opponents but in the end of voters going to judge the incumbent and says he got it or doesn't he and what's the next way is this guy going to be like we got four more years of this they're gonna make a decision it's tough on it President Obama it's gonna be one tough reelection campaign I don't know if he knows it that's what I think it's gonna be really tough right and yet they're putting to update their bench looks pretty good yeah the trouble is all their stars are on the bench yeah and you know they got Christie sort of appeals to me you know he's a wiseass you know I think people like them there and then mood most people are in that kind of mood yeah none of your business that's the mood most people and so the answer your question is this country's in a Crabby mood right now and uh Republicans have got they may run the if they run new tits and by the way I think they might run it no it looks like he can win this if you ever thought of Newt as a character that Mel Brooks invented in Sin City I find him amazing really uh and and a character the characters Max Bialystock ah ah who-who doesn't know what to do with success you know he only knows he can only have a little sloppy that they really do want to upsell your show it can only deal with a flop you know because whatever happens to Newt he can never it never goes you know he always fail you know if he's a grand critic from the sidelines oh he's a he's a bomb thrower but give him the given the gavel and he don't know what the other thing is answered questions Republican Party I like the Democratic Party has been an organized party there usually is a group of governors that get together decide almost like in every big cities been around the country Utah familiar with it Oklahoma they basically get together about seven or eight guys and some club somewhere it sort of decide how to run these things and these the governors and they'd say well it's W this year whosoever will go with reagan finally and that kind of structure the party seems to be missing now on the Republican side they don't seem to have a party anymore it's just a bunch of guys that thought they might like to be president nobody would have said hey Newt why didn't you run hey Herman how come you didn't run this year nobody would have thought of these guys that are running Santorum Bachmann you were what I said I wish you Michelle would run this year God everything would have been different nobody thinks these people should be candidates now men of course when it has been decided you want to be President probably when he's about eighteen and it's been just sort of fine-tuning his policies ever since you know but he's basically decided what they call him a walking agenda wasp by the way and formatting he just sort of figured it out you know he want to be president so he'd find some way to get there but it's all a question of tactic for him I think and he's one to do it you have to do to get there and I understand that he has a particular goal and I think he's a you know it's what he wants to do but he's not an ideologue in any way and and yet Newt isn't either nudists a complete practical person about how he wants to get there he will basically adapt and so they have these two guys who aren't ideological ready to lead a Tea Party led Republican Party it's so odd the people out there in the country were so angry they have beliefs they don't like this don't like that don't like this they these two guys don't particularly have those feelings they would never go to a tea party meeting you mentioned MIT at a tea party meeting he's like I got a mix with those lowbrows and I am it's not it's never gonna happen I was just thinking recently of the 19 1980 New Hampshire primary remember the great scene with Reagan and Bush but the lineup that was interesting Phil crane but Phil crane Bill Crane looks pretty solemn in this crowd I mean thank you Bob Dole George HW Bush Ronald Reagan Bob Dole Howard Baker John Anderson John Connolly Phil crane I mean that's right they weren't from Ringling Brothers you know I mean that's that's and I mean that's a big change and Reagan was a guy they'd seen before and the Republicans like a guy they've seen before isn't that right this year I mean the normal route for the Republican Party is whose turn is it yeah and a Democratic Party is who's got the hot hand you know it's never got any parties like an inner-city basketball court yes who's hit and given the ball and they love love rookie they like rookies like refuse against like guys have been around like the Knights of Columbus like whose turn is it you know if I tell you you know whose toes gonna do it now yes I guess is his turn they're very precious we're boring anyway my turn yes your turn does anybody today on the political scene remind you of John F Kennedy oh right down the pike has hit that one right over when I wrote the book know Barack Obama has pieces of it of course Bill Clinton has pieces of it and Hillary Clinton's piece up there's there our rug Kennedy of grew and he learned and Arthur Schlessinger who I've come to respect more and more the more I read him what a beautiful writer would beautiful think I used to think he was pretty hard left he's not he's very done not ugly conservative guy a journalism area and and very uh thoughtful yeah and he he said I heard him say this is the ideas professor layton and at in Aspen one time he said politics is essentially a learning profession and you have to learn it and you have to learn like Kennedy learned it all the way through the the retail the the leadership stuff the hardball the backroom stuff the the leadership when you when he find himself in the White House and rise he was surrounded by people who weren't his people anymore it wasn't a Kennedy party it was a CIA party it was a military party and he to make it all work for him so you to keep learning Barack Obama's problem is that he said inspired speaker I mean I've been ridic over say how thrilled I was by speaking but anybody that was in those rooms of two hundred people in New Hampshire back in oh wait and actually appear in Boston 2004 when I first made my comments about his throwing a rhetoric because he talked about our country in a way that was so bracing and real and oh my god here's a guy with a weird different background and he can talk about how great this country is better than not us a lot of us who grew up in certain more normal ways and here's the other father ran away when he's two years old it's funny he's got this brewery sort of Middle Eastern sounding name and and yet all this seems to still work this is the country of exceptional essentialism and he's the proof of it and I get still thrilled thinking about what he said about our country and yet there's a lot of it you have to learn that he didn't learn about leadership you're not a leader if you're a speaker you're a leader if you look behind you and they're people following you that's a leader other politicians have to be put in line behind you you have to use intimidation sometimes you got to work them you got to make them follow you so I don't see that part of the Kennedy thing maybe that you needs a Bobby but I don't see other politicians afraid of it when somebody of middleweights stature like Eric Cantor can deliberately go into a meeting with him with the idea of getting a reputation for trashing the president in his place in the White House you got problems because that guy did that with impunity that guy I'm not saying he's a squirt I'm saying he's I'll give him the credit be a middle way because like I quoted calling him a squirt so I won't call me squirt he's not a squirt but he is a middleweight that's the quote Herbert can't use the complete sense Eric Cantor is a middle way the bat that he can walk into a room and trash the president is a problem for the president and so I think there's a lot of things this president has to learn and still has to learn on the job and that's the challenge for him but he has a lot of the tickets the look the education yes certainly he's more intelligent I think that most politicians including all the Kennedys he's got to be one of the highest IQ people around ever come across of course that's probably true of some of the guys you don't like but I don't have any heroes today not like like Kennedy and uh and I do think that we have had a drop in class from all these years of trashing government public service it is it has earned what we've gotten from it the world when we have got nobody risking their but who want to be risking their but going into public life it's just the kind of people that are coming in I think we've lowered the standard there are people in the Senate today who I can't imagine would would say I'm not going to quote him but some people from the South especially with not only a cell they go there in the US Senate I can't believe some of them are I grew up where Bob Dole was a middleweight Bob doesn't giant compared to these people muskie was on a light heavyweight muskie is stark well I think he is a star compared to these people and and the fact that we had a Senate composed of Humphrey and levered Everett Dirksen and Jack Javits and Javits was amazing my end up and Hadfield and Percy and Doug I mean all even have slight heavyweights were amazingly good and up in the wingman you had them and uh and Teddy of course was so bad I do say something about Teddy Ennis and his brother thought he wasn't going to be seriously but if he had gotten to pick the the greatest senators of our time he's able to look forward he would have picked his brother and I think that was one of the great wonderful developments in the Kennedy family the the brother was the younger one ended up being the great historic senator yeah you know last question for mr. Matthews will sign your books last question okay hi Chris and Sally fade oh yeah nice to see you Sally in the book I know are you and that's a wonderful thing that we both had part of the the family of pictures the family movies yes and yes how great it was every time Jack Kennedy called your house and how thrilled the family was when Jack Kennedy called the fae family and another movie reference your dad could sing wait for Hollywood I know I wish she was here daddy would love to do it for this crowd and and as history goes that happened to be the very first film role of Ronald Reagan a Hollywood hotel that that's from go ahead so well III just there was there's been so much written about the president and so many wonderful sources and we have all known so many things about him what were the more surprising things that you discovered but was there anything I'll just strictly tell you how he wrote the book I first of all I wanted to write it and uh and I wanted to write about a guy not a historic figure but a person that I wanted to find the him in him and I wanted to find the answer the question Marty started with tonight which was what's he like because for as a kidding when I was a Republican kid teenager with a Republican family I always said to myself that's the guy want to meet not Goldwater Nixon this is the guy find interesting he's unbelievably interesting and did today I have about three people I'll read anything about Hemingway him or Churchill nobody see the names I'll read the whole thing okay so I'm just that you knew him I just don't miss this distant figure and I wanted answer that question and I was lucky to dig into the archives it showed and I got the Irish by the way of taking over Choate it's great so I was able to get I was able to get to the Ascot stuff Lorraine Connolly was the head of public relations up there their kid goes the Holy Cross said this how things work and go and what else in the Headmaster's name is Ed Shanahan so I was able to get in there uh the I haven't know Donna was wonderful to give me she transcribed a lot of all 64 tapes of her dad in the sand even ochre interviews he did years ago which are incredibly rich doubt there's too much in there for anybody to swallow it's like a fire hydrant unless you're a real political nutcase like me but everything about every detail so you had to sort of listen to and read at all to find the five of the stuff your dad's book the pleasure of his company is spectacular it is I hope you do get to reprint it it is I mean I stole a bunch of stories in there they're so good because they're about a guy who's a friends with another guy that going out to see Spartacus it's my favorite story the sneaking out president itíd States calls up his buddy red faith from the Navy says let's go see the movies Friday night these two guys let's go to movies I want to see Spartacus so they go off to some neighborhood movie theaters United States and your dad got the tickets and so they go into the movies he comes in a little late by the way the best credits of any movie ever by the way Spartacus credits the credits are not about Kirk Douglas so he goes in a movie late and he finds out the Secretary of Agriculture's problem the guy Freeman Orville Freeman to help us seats in front of them so uh and it is days we used to change the reels at half time in a movie you know the intermission so they go back into the office of the guy running the theater and this is typical Jack Kennedy he says that the guy who's running it there he put out a bunch of booze and food for them and everything which they didn't want he goes up so how would you think what kind of an actor you think this Guy'd make read Fay this is was typical Kennedy he had this guy what do you think I could kind of an actor would you make about to bid and it's this guy just forced a completely BS you know the president states that anyway I love that stuff yeah it's telling me any guys I love your dad stuff and he was great to me when I did my first book on the rivalry he was gone the Kennedy Center where he was alright I'm not in your back we got to get to Gunther Sally he's available he's he hasn't got writers cramp yet so line up thank you Chris you

Channel: JFK Library

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Length: 63min 27sec (3807 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 12 2012