Lies, Politics and Democracy: Robert Costa (interview) | FRONTLINE

one of the places that we're looking back at is charlottesville and there's a conversation in the book between paul ryan and donald trump where he talks about why he's having so much trouble with it and how he views some of the people who are involved in charlottesville can you tell us the story of that conversation between ryan and trump and what trump said paul ryan is someone who had tried for years to move the republican party closer to black americans he comes out of that jack chem school of the gop knowing the party needs to make inroads with people of color when he was watching trump respond to charlottesville ryan was aghast he couldn't believe it what was the president doing could he really be saying that he asked his aides they said not only is he not disavowing the protest the white nationalist he's talking about them as if they were counter protesters to antifa ryan called up trump and ryan was on vacation ryan was with his family on vacation and he calls up trump and says you have to walk back these comments and trump says to him you don't understand these people mean well most of them mean well ryan says i don't care if some of them mean well this is a crisis moment you're president you have to speak up but trump wouldn't budge it was a breaking point early in the presidency for paul ryan he thought maybe he could nudge trump toward the political center nudge trump toward normal but it was during the charlottesville riot the attack that ryan recognized there was no chance he could ever bring trump around that he could corral the president's conduct in any way and it was really from charlottesville on that paul ryan realized his own speakership was waning it would end at some point likely in the trump presidency because he couldn't connect with someone not just on a political level but on a moral level ryan saw charlottesville as a moral crisis trump couldn't see it that way declined to even walk back his comments and ryan's on a mountainside on vacation with his family and he turns to them and he calls his aides and he says i just don't get what trump's up to who this guy is does he not understand what he's saying when it comes to white nationalism one of the comments that's reported in the book that trump says now seems to be especially revealing which is you know these are my people what does it reveal about trump about how he sees people engaged in political violence all the way back then i've stood behind trump when he's at rallies watching him watch the crowd he thinks these crowds his supporters are his people and it doesn't matter what they say it doesn't matter if they have a crude message on their signs it doesn't matter if they march through the streets of charlottesville virginia he sees them as his core supporters and he won't break with them this is someone who craves political popularity and if someone is loyal to him he will essentially stay loyal to them that is the trump transactional playbook and it applies not just to high-ranking political leaders but to his core supporters in the grassroots he can't break with people he believes are there with him who have been with him not only during his political career but during his business career his time on reality show television he believes he has an audience and he wants to keep the audience regardless of their conduct and just to get it clearly from you it's not even speculation it's what he actually said right to ryan what what do you mean what part i mean um whatever what i'm trying to get is that he actually said to ryan oh yeah right as the house speakers listening to the president go on and on he realizes that trump won't move at all why won't trump move ryan recognizes it's because trump keeps saying to him on the phone these are my people trump is on the phone with paul ryan and saying to the house speaker paul you don't understand me and you don't understand my political appeal these are my people i'm standing with my people ryan says i don't care if they're your so-called your people you have to disavow the white nationalists trump says you don't get it paul these are my people i think one of the questions during the period leading up to lafayette square was the president's attitude especially now although let's talk about authoritarianism and how strong and how far he was willing to go i mean there's reporting in the book about using active duty troops and can you describe what the president wanted to do as he saw protesters in washington trump's closest friends tell me remember he didn't serve in the military but he did go to new york military academy this is someone whose father loved the military loved military figures trump has followed in his father fred trump's footsteps and someone who highly regards military leaders tough guys as trump says trump has surrounded himself as president with tough guys people he sees through the prism of military gritty leadership when he walks across lafayette square he wants to be seen as a strong man not necessarily an authoritarian people close to trump say he never even really uses the word but he wants to be seen as tough even if it shatters political norms he surrounded himself in his cabinet in his administration with retired and current military officials a lot of people in the military sat up and took notice of trump early on this is someone who really likes to be with generals talks about the generals in a personal way my generals trump says often when he refers to military leaders lafayette square was an episode that wasn't an aberration it encapsulated who donald trump is the wanna-be military-type leader striding across a square in a chaotic city with two military leaders at his side chairman milley and secretary mark esper it was no coincidence that trump wanted to walk across the square with mark esper the defense secretary and chairman millie at his side this is the image he has cultivated it's the image he wanted and he even wanted to do more right he wanted to have active duty 10 000 active duty troops inside washington when he tells that to his advisers what does he say and how much of a break with american democratic tradition is it what he's talking about and contemplating in late may and on june 1st washington was on the brink of a war-like atmosphere the president sitting in the oval office and considering bringing in active duty troops lethal troops who know how to kill these are not national guard troops who direct traffic these are troops from different regiments different parts of the military i believe it was the airborne trump wants to bring in the 101st airborne up from fort bragg to come into washington his generals chairman millie other military advisers are saying to trump you can't do this sir mr president if you bring these troops into washington dc if you bring them to black lives matter plaza you will have blood on the streets of washington d.c he holds back but they are there never forget the troops got as close to washington as the river they're sitting over in maryland just waiting for the call from president trump ultimately esper and millie prevent trump from making that decision they stave off trump going in that direction but trump was this close to bringing in active duty combat troops to the streets of washington on the streets that night in washington i was there you would have never known uh amid the chaos that it could have been even worse that troops were ready to come in at a moment's notice i think we should start at the moment when trump walks out to the microphone after the election in the early morning hours you just help us with what he sets in motion at that moment when he says that frankly he did win the election and what was he thinking at the time trump didn't have a coherent plan but he knew he wanted to fight he couldn't stand the idea of losing some aides were telling him sir it's over start heading back to mar-a-lago get ready for running again in 2024. trump wanted none of it initially he kind of acknowledged in the few hours after the election that maybe he maybe he lost maybe biden won but that tune changed so quickly the reason trump changes his tune in part is because he has a phone call with rudy giuliani the former new york mayor his personal lawyer giuliani tells trump keep fighting we will have a legal crusade a political crusade to keep you in power trump loves the idea even though trump has a campaign apparatus a legal team that's ready to fight in certain states and have a court fight to a point giuliani wants political and legal war and that's when trump gives the keys essentially to rudy giuliani not his campaign lawyers he says to rudy do what you need to do to help me stay here and when trump decides to start fighting he's really going to create this moment that's going to cause a lot of people to have to decide what are they going to do there's a number of them that we'll talk about and one of the ones that comes out very early on and goes on fox news and is raising questions about it is lindsey graham can you describe who lindsey graham is and what he thinks that he's doing in this period when he's talking about election fraud and also talking to the president at that time lindsey graham is as close as anyone can be to trump inside the republican party a golf buddy of president trump's someone who calls the president early in the morning late at night he's the classic presidential confidant a bachelor from south carolina who loves golf and loves being friends with the president he was close to the late senator john mccain and after mccain's death trump filled the void for graham in a personal and political sense trump was someone he could work with he felt he understood graham fancied himself the explainer of trump to the rest of the republican party graham knows trump's personality better than anyone and he gets that trump wants to keep fighting but graham is a lawyer he comes out of the military jag core he knows that if you're going to have a legal fight you have to have evidence from day one he's trying to balance trump's instinct that fighting instinct with the legal and political reality that trump has likely lost unless some kind of evidence is presented that changes everybody's mind graham encapsulates the balancing act inside the republican party graham is trying to keep trump as his best friend to keep trump at his side but he also knows that this entire effort could careen into disaster for the gop if it stretches on too long but like so many in the republican party graham thought he could contain the situation but he's usually disappointed like everybody else when it comes to those who try to contain trump he wants to contain trump but ultimately realizes it's probably not possible graham is working in the days after the election to be someone who tells others in the senate stay cool trump will vent for a while let him have his grievances but we'll get this going it's likely he'll leave the white house we're not going to have a problem graham was someone early on who saw this with a sunny disposition that it was trump venting more than anything i mean but even while that's going on i mean the price of that what is the price of that excess because he's going on fox news he's calling election officials in georgia he's in his own way i mean isn't he pushing something that it sounds like he doesn't even believe there's evidence for graham even if he has his own doubts buys in he buys in to trump's belief this suspicion that the election is stolen what you see in the republican party even among those who are skeptical is a readiness a willingness to buy in to trump's assumptions about the election assumptions that ultimately are shown to be a lie they buy in because they believe trump has immense political capital and they also think his personality is one that needs to be allowed to explore all these different ideas to talk to a million different people before he finally closes the door on election 2020. everybody in the republican party at the highest ranks in some respect fancies themselves an armchair psychologist when it comes to president trump they believe he can somehow be managed that the situation as long as they have a light touch can be kept under control but of course it can't my last question on graham he watches this sydney powell press conference and you describe him as saying it's beyond bizarre he is golfing with trump trying to convince him to drop his objections i mean for that cost for the price that he is paying in order to be close to trump does he manage to succeed does he get anything out of it graham quickly recognizes that this thing is spiraling out of control sydney powell rudy giuliani they're at the wheel not mitch mcconnell not lindsey graham it's sydney pal it's it's rudy giuliani and an effort the republicans in congress thought would maybe last a few days at most a couple weeks suddenly becomes something that maybe will stretch into early 2021. there's an exasperation with lindsey graham with others close to trump that they're losing control of the president they're losing control of the presidency graham believed he could make a few phone calls figure out if there's voter fraud and then tell trump hey it's time to close this but then trump decides he's just going to keep digging in and trump starts to listen less to lindsey graham starts to listen less to those around him who are saying hey there's not there there where's the evidence mr president but he keeps hearing from people on the far right and inside his new legal team that there is something there there is a stolen election that only needs to be further discovered trump begins to believe in in an innate way even though evidence doesn't back it up and when people like sydney powell and rudy giuliani come into his orbit and start telling him that there are affidavits saying that there's voter fraud in 10 states or that the election machines are somehow rigged trump welcomes those ideas even if they're not based in fact graham his phone calls with trump they start to be shorter his conversations more clipped because if you're not in with trump's effort in mid and late november 2020 you're not in with trump at all he wants yes people around him that's why it's sydney powell who starts in late november and early december to go up to the residence the private meetings that yellow room up near the residence in the second floor of the white house that's where trump's huddling with sydney powell huddling with rudy giuliani and if you're not mapping out a way for him to stay in power he doesn't want to hear from you as he goes into that period as the president is starting to push this who is bilvar and what is his relationship with trump and you know is he a deep state operative as he gets accused of later who's bill barr at that moment bill barr had been attorney general for george h.w bush then went into the private sector into the private practice of law but he wanted back in barr wanted back into washington back to be close to the flame of power and he got that chance with president trump he ingratiates himself with trump with a letter that outlines barr's position on the mueller investigation expressing skepticism about the way the mueller investigation is moving forward trump loves it he brings barr in makes him attorney general from day one barr builds a bond with trump barr is a loyalist to trump and if that's what trump wanted at this point in the presidency someone who was going to do what he wanted at doj who was going to be a tough presence someone he could count on not necessarily as a political soldier but as someone who wouldn't be a problem jeff sessions the previous a.g had been a real problem in trump's view and he wanted someone he could count on a seasoned pair of hands at the department of justice after the election barr is still a loyal figure close to trump barr remains close to trump in the days after the election but he grows weary by the day with trump's continued complaints about the election and allegations of fraud allegations barr knows are not based in fact because barr has a team that's spread out around the country keeping track of the election and its integrity barr went a little bit too far in the eyes of many democrats and some republicans and having the doj pay so close attention to possible election fraud barr is already doing what trump wants when it comes to the election he has a whole team that has a close eye on what's happening in a state after state but when trump keeps barreling forward bard pulls him aside and says mr president enough the evidence isn't there and when trump goes on and on about voter fraud in michigan and voter fraud in pennsylvania barr comes at trump with the data but trump doesn't want to hear it trump screams at barr and says i don't want to hear what you have to say you're wrong this election was stolen barr says sir the election wasn't stolen it was a breaking point when barr wouldn't echo trump's claims barr knew it was over it was time to leave the only question was when how important was bar as a check at that moment in our constitutional government and everything that was playing out and what could you know if the attorney general had decided to go along with the efforts of the white house what role did he play barr was a check he kept the president from making wild claims of voter fraud and using the doj as a weapon to fight his political opponents and make claims of fraud but bar was a check only so far barr doesn't stop trump from continuing to move down the path of claiming the election was stolen of moving toward january 6 with the intention of blocking biden and the certification of the election barr is a roadblock to trump but he's not someone that ultimately has a lot of influence he leaves the white house trump doesn't seem to care and he just keeps going our system was built to have the attorney general be an independent officer within the cabinet the chief law enforcement officer and this time that chief law enforcement officer offered facts to the president but if the president doesn't accept the facts from the chief law enforcement officer does the system actually work because the president ignored his own attorney general dismissed him yelled at him and the attorney general ultimately resigned barr had power but he only had power to a point if the president doesn't listen are you really powerful i mean it's true then at one point barr even goes public when he talks to the associated press you know how unprecedented was that how did trump respond to that instead of seeing his own attorney general as the chief law enforcement officer who offers an opinion based in evidence in fact an investigation trump began to see barr as a pundit someone who he disagreed with about the election and could just be shrugged off not taken seriously and ultimately they stop talking trump stops taking bars calls and stops calling bar trump stops calling barr and he says to barr at one point bill do you notice i'm not calling you anymore and barr later told others i thought that was good i didn't want to be talking to trump at that point the president reaches out to ted cruz and asks him to get involved who is ted cruz and why was he important to trump in this period oh great question ted cruz was supposed to be the next star of the republican party maybe even the next republican president he wins the iowa caucuses in 2016 the favorite of conservative evangelicals the white house seems within reach but trump ruined ted cruz's ambitions trump put cruz's entire career on the shelf at least for four years when he beat cruz for the nomination cruz had a moment in 2016. cruz was up on the stage at the republican national conventions and he told the crowd vote your conscience it was an opportunity for cruz to maybe set himself up it's not necessarily the anti-trump but the conservative standard bearer in the trump era to be someone separate from trump a conservative voice in a populist time but ultimately cruz doesn't become the conservative alternative to trump he becomes an enabler of trump politically an ally of president trump throughout the trump presidency instead of setting himself up as a foil he sets himself up as an ally of trump by the end of the trump presidency cruz is looking to help he's a constitutional scholar and acclaimed lawyer he knows trump can only go so far and when trump asks him again and again in the post-election period can you help me go to the supreme court he often has to privately throw a bucket of cold water on trump's legal dreams he says mr president you have to do x y and z before you get to the supreme court i'm happy to help in any way i can but you have to lower your expectations cruz was essentially an outside legal advisor to trump offering perspective not necessarily counsel on december 30th 2020 senator josh hawley decides he is going to object it's a monumental moment for the republican party mitch mcconnell had hoped to keep every republican senator away from objecting to get this election through january 6 to enable biden to become the next president hawley throttles everybody's plans hawley also creates a vexing moment for ted cruz if hawley is going to object what is ted cruz going to do cruz had a decision to make what would he do object as well cruz pulls together his staff has a conference call after hawley makes his announcement cruz says what are our options they talk through different steps they could take to help trump object to the count cruz decides to come up with a commission idea a collective presentation of republican senators who would say we need to now study the election study election fraud through a commission and this becomes the cruz project something that gives him a little separation from hawley's pure objection and it's an idea that shows trump that cruz is doing something anything to help trump stay in power for cruz the commission idea was a way to show trump he was in the trenches with the president cruz begins to make phone calls on his way back to washington to other republican senators join me on this commission let's object but the cover for our objection will be that we're pushing a commission to study this election it was a way to excuse objecting it was a way to frame their decision to object to the biden certification to say to their own voters and their supporters we're doing something we're going to try to form a commission mcconnell hates the idea he wants this to move on he wants the election the country to move forward but cruz and hawley and others start to buy into the idea that maybe january 6 should be a reckoning it should be a moment for the election to be studied further by a commission objection should take place how important was cruz when paulie goes out and he says he's going to do it how important was the fact that cruz signed on to this cruz is a vital figure because the texas senator added his voice to hawley's he made it not just about josh hawley being out on a limb unlike everybody else in the senate republican conference cruz gave credence to the effort to object and he gave an opening for other republican senators to sign on other republican senators didn't want to just be seen as objecting for the sake of objecting cruz and his commission idea gave them an opportunity to say well this is why we're objecting we want a commission to study the election cruz gives political and legislative cover to republican senators who were on the fence not sure if they were going to object but looking for an opportunity to object and show the president they were fully with him one of the things that's so interesting about ted cruz is you know harvard law school solicitor general runs as a constitutional conservative um it's a large part of his identity that he presents to voters and in the book there's a moment where he and mike lee are discussing you know whether any of this is constitutional can you tell us about that discussion and what it reveals after the election senator lee was exploring ideas about how to help trump look for examples of fraud to contest the election lee was texting with mark meadows and saying hey i'm here to help you think through this there's a possibility here that this election maybe was stolen or there was fraud in certain states but eventually senator lee comes to the conclusion that the evidence just isn't there and he decides as much as he wanted to help his political ally trump he's not going to object cruz because of his decision on a commission to study voter fraud believes he has a pathway as a lawyer to make an objection and have an explanation for why he's doing so it's a crossroads for lee and cruz two best friends what are they going to do the two sharpest legal conservative minds in the u.s senate they both know that the evidence of fraud isn't there and mike lee says to cruz i'm just not going to object i don't see where this evidence is people keep talking about evidence but i don't see it cruz his closest friend says i get your position i understand it but a lot of people out there are saying there is fraud so i want to have this commission this this entity to study the election and that's my path forward these two best friends agree to disagree lee doesn't object cruz objects trump's entire effort led to upheaval in the senate republican conference even the two guys who were always together lee and cruz couldn't agree on whether an objection made sense they both knew that they didn't have meat on the bones here but cruz wanted to look for it lee was ready to say let's move on one of the other figures that's crucial in this period is mitch mcconnell who remains silent for a long period of time and eventually goes in and congratulates joe biden you describe mcconnell's calculation in that in remaining silent through that period and where his relationship with trump ended up at the end mcconnell privately lows donald trump he can't stand him he knows on a political level on a transactional level they've been able to do a lot together mcconnell prides himself sees his legacy as someone who has changed the judiciary in the united states mcconnell knows he is someone who has nominated countless judges to federal posts put people on the supreme court working with president trump but beyond their work together on tax cuts in the court on a personal level there's no love there there's not even like they despise each other mcconnell is seen by trump as the ultimate insider old crow he calls him mcconnell sees trump as an outsider incompetent never curious about how the party works or how legislation works as someone who's coasting along on celebrity and gut instinct but they were able to work together closely for four years but at the end mcconnell's had enough mcconnell is silent during the post-election period letting the president go from thing to thing mcconnell watches as the president pinballs from legal idea to political gambit to another legal idea to another political gambit he can't stand it but he doesn't want to start having a fight with trump mcconnell tells his aides trump wants a fight he wants to fight the republican establishment and mcconnell says to his advisors i'm not going to give him that we're just going to let this play out but as long as the election is seen as legitimate we're going to move forward with the electoral college and we're going to move forward with the certification but eventually he comes out and he congratulates joe biden and what is the president's reaction to that mcconnell and trump speak by phone the president is furious he lashes into mcconnell what the heck do you think you're doing expletives fly he says to mcconnell you've never been loyal you've never been someone i could trust you've never really been in my corner mcconnell says almost nothing he's done with trump he says one sentence to trump the election is over you have lost and then the call ends it's the last time the two speak mcconnell is over with donald trump after mid-december 2020. mcconnell's friends say he relished the call with trump he was ready to say good riddance to the president a president who he had built a transactional bond with but a president who had worn out his welcome with the senate leader but this idea of loyalty what is that concept that trump is invoking when he's trying to get people on his side to essentially to overturn an election and how is it different from how we usually understand the role of government trump doesn't come out of the american political tradition or the american political system like so many others in his generation who are in politics who have been presidential contenders those who know trump know he's never been a political or partisan person he's a tribal person when trump talks about power he talks about loyalty because he was taught about power by roy cohn roger stone people who saw politics as combat and where loyalty was paramount it wasn't about ideology it wasn't about your position it wasn't about elections it was about loyalty and power that is the prism from the new york real estate world of fred trump to the new york tabloid fights of roy cohn and roger stone in the 80s trump comes out of a tribal new york political atmosphere where party politics is almost meaningless what matters is loyalty are you someone who can be trusted to not burn the principle to not burn trump i mean i think that's part of the whole problem for the republican party the problem for so many republicans is they come out of the reagan era the bush era where political loyalty means loyalty to a creed to an ideology for trump loyalty means loyalty to a person him and that's it how serious was the attempt to overturn the election and use mike pence to do it inside the white house did they believe that this was a possible way to stay in office was this a serious thing that they were undertaking of course i mean yes january 4th 2021 john eastman president trump in the oval office they pull vice president pence in he's joined by his aides greg jacob and mark short trump says to pence in front of others you have to now listen to john eastman you have to follow the eastman plan object to the certification walk away from the lectern and let the states decide let the states send alternate electors this wasn't some idea that was presented in a vague way it was memorialized in a memo two pages six parts authored by john eastman a conservative lawyer late december 2020 it was the last option for donald trump the eastman plan send the election back to the states so they could send alternate electors back to congress and the election could ultimately take place in the house of representatives there were all these different scenarios being floated ultimately trump wanted to stay in power through having alternate electors decide he was the rightful president or to have biden not reach the threshold he needs 270 electoral votes and if some of those electoral votes were contested that number falls and if you don't hit the number what happens in our system most people don't even recognize it inside the constitution the election becomes what's called a contingent election it goes into the house of representatives and once it's in the house of representatives it's not a popular vote in the house among all 435 members it's a vote by state delegation and even though the democrats had the majority in the house in january 2021 guess who had the majority of delegations republicans and that's where trump saw an opening as long as he could try to kick the election into the house he had a shot he had a shot at a second term trump becomes obsessed with kicking the election into the house and the way to do it is to follow this planned outline by john eastman eastman's telling trump it's possible it's a long shot it's a hail mary but here's the plan i'm putting it down on paper the only thing we need is to get pence to buy in if the vice president walks away and says this isn't a legitimate election that will enable states to then have special sessions to try to put forward alternate electors it would raise questions about all the electors trump for trump time is of the essence he's already failed in the courts now in late december and early january he needs to refocus this time on the vice president mike pence how can he bring pence in to be the first domino to fall in a line of dominoes to keep him in power but pence is the person who has to start the process eastman says to trump you need to get pence to be the one to walk away because that causes chaos that causes a constitutional crisis where then you could argue the states need to step in the house of representatives might need to vote and have a contingent election so pence is crucial for giving his stamp of approval to this entire legal proposal a political proposal january 4th trump's in the oval he says to pence in front of eastman listen to john listen to john it's a pressure campaign pence says to trump i'm going to do what i can mr president i want to help you out but i'm listening to my lawyers he turns to mark short he turns to greg jacob his advisors and he says they're telling me i can't do it i can't do it it's not constitutional it's not legal trump says you can do it listen to john pence says well let's have greg jacob my lawyer meet with eastman the next day january 5th trump says fine trump flies to georgia the night of january 4th for a rally and in front of thousands of people in georgia trump makes it clear through the television screen to pence in washington you better follow the plan you better listen to what i'm saying trump outlines in georgia that pence has to buy in or else he risks his entire political career everything's on the line for pence if he doesn't follow through pence and his advisors are watching trump and georgia and they grow increasingly nervous that this president is not stopping his crusade against pence he's telling his own voters pence is maybe going to do what he wants pence knows privately he can't do anything that trump is saying it's not constitutional it's not legal after the georgia rally trump says i'm still not hearing enough from pence he hasn't formally bought into the plan january 5th 2021 trump says to his advisors i need pence over here bring him to the oval this time it's not with eastman or with mark short of the other age it's trump pence one-on-one january 5th can trump get pence to agree trump and penn sit down in the oval office trump says you have to do this mike if you don't do it i picked the wrong man four years ago i need you to do it he says sir mr president i've been trying to look at this i've taken a hard look at it i can't do it i just can't do it mike you need to do it the eastman plan outlines how you can do it trump points to the crowd outside you can hear them through the walls of the oval office the noise is so loud they're walking through the streets the proud boys the oath keepers they're there the night of january 5th trump and pence can hear them through the walls trump points outside he says if they gave you the power wouldn't you want them to do it they want you to do it mike the people want you to do it based on our reporting pence says i can't do it trump flies into a rage he needs pence to buy in but pence won't buy in ultimately pence says to the president i can't do it i just can't do it and trump says if you can't do it i don't even want to be your friend anymore this is a man mike pence who gave everything to donald trump his loyalty 24 7 for four years and to hear the president say i don't want to be your friend anymore pence's friends say it was almost crippling to pence on a personal level he felt he gave it all a friend of pence tom rose told others that he saw pence leave the oval office that night and pence looked as white as a ghost like he had just been leaving a hospital after hearing bad news this was a man who had been nearly broken by a man he had been loyal to pence walks up to his advisors mark short and others and says i gave it all in there i told trump i've tried everything and then he ducks into his motorcade and heads home to dinner it was a critical moment in american history to have the vice president one-on-one in the oval office tell the president on what ended up being the eve of an insurrection that he couldn't do the president's bidding and object to the certification of a presidential election if the vice president had somehow listened to the siren song of trump on that night in the oval office the country likely would have changed you would have had chaos in crisis on capitol hill on january 6. pence goes home and has a muted dinner with his friends and advisors at the residence at the naval observatory and he decides that night he's going to issue a letter the next day before he heads to the capitol sketching out why he can't do what trump wants pence decides he won't even go to the white house on january 6th he'll go straight from home to the capitol it's over between him and trump in terms of discussing any kind of objection it seems like at the beginning you know before even they're pressing him pence is in a difficult spot of being torn between his loyalty to trump and these election fraud claims and how is he going to navigate it can you describe mike pence in that period after the election leading up into the moment we're talking about who he is his relationship with trump and how the election is going to be putting him into this difficult position mike pence is a highly adaptable former talk radio host from indiana someone who began his career as a radio host who called himself rush limbaugh on decaf someone who could embrace hard right conservatism but have a presentable almost moderate temperament in his articulation of those arguments rush limbaugh on decaf that was how mike pence described himself for years and how he described himself once he made it to the house of representatives highly adaptable because pence always is willing to understand and change when the republican party changes pence watches inside the house of representatives how the party is convulsing during the tea party era and he signs on and he becomes a tea party leader he goes to indiana becomes governor and he watches trump start to rise in the republican party instead of becoming anti-trump or being repelled by trump's personality even though pence initially was with ted cruz he ultimately says hey trump's someone i can work with pence is a conservative who is malleable in terms of his political coalitions when trump calls him in 2016 and says let's have you on the ticket he's all in he has always eyed the presidency as his ultimate goal working with trump as a vice presidential contender it was a path in that direction so why not some people close to pence said this is a terrible decision don't align yourself with donald trump you're likely going to lose the election but pence said i want to be with trump because i want to be with where the party is going even if it's more populist than me i'm willing to change he adapted he went with trump and he was loyal from day one he wasn't someone who was going to question the direction of trump or the party but ride the tide now he's confronted at the beginning of the election fraud allegations and he has to decide what is he going to do is he going to amplify it is he going to be like rudy giuliani what is he deciding this is in the period before they're asking him to intervene on january 6. the clips show everything about pence in the days after the election pence is essentially echoing trump in his own way walking a political tightrope trying to not be seen as extreme and saying the election was stolen but not having any room between him and trump when it comes to having suspicion about the outcome pence at event after event says to voters don't worry we're digging into this election we're looking into possible fraud he's not someone who's saying to trump cut it out he knows that trump as much as anyone around trump knows he knows that trump wants to fight this for weeks if not months and he's not going to stop trump in any way he remains the loyal soldier but he couches his rhetoric in a bit of a different way pence is always careful he wants to be seen as close to trump but he doesn't want to be seen as just repeating trump's lines he wants to have a career after trump and that means not being seen as mr stolen election enabling trump but he also wants to be seen as trump's ally it's never easy for mike pence to figure out exactly what to say and what to do he doesn't want to lose his bearing as a republican who's taken seriously by the leaders of the party but he doesn't want to lose trump's favor there's a really interesting phone call it's a discussion between quail and pence can you tell us that phone call and what mike pence's you know process and anguish that he's going through at that moment is there is no one in the world who understands mike pence perhaps better than dan quayle both indiana republicans white males who have served as vice president for republican presidents there are only two people in the world who fit the profile of mike pence and dan quayle two male republicans from indiana who served as vice president of the united states dan quayle was at the lectern on january 6 1993 overseeing the certification of his own defeat he was someone who had been in the shoes pence was about to put on pence calls up quail vice president to vice president what do you think i should do quail says you don't have any options there's one thing you do here you certify the election pence says i understand but you don't understand the pressure i'm under trump wants me to do something there's a huge appetite inside of this white house to somehow fight this to block the certification quail says i get it i understand the president's angry but you don't have options this you're an overseer of the certification the emcee the maitre d nothing more pence understands he says he listens again but says this is a tough situation we're hearing about voter fraud in states like your own arizona quail now lives in arizona quail says don't buy it mike there's no fraud here this is not a legitimate claim of fraud don't buy into the claims of fraud just do your job pence listens he trusts quail they're friends they're both conservative republicans but this was a gut check for pence call up quail someone who's done this before someone who's overseeing a defeat on another january 6 and get the advice it was a critical moment for pence to hear it from quail himself another vice president not a political adviser on the payroll not from someone close to trump not from some random lawyer he was hearing advice from a former vice president who had been through the same thing and vice president quayle had one message again and again you have nothing to do but certify the election you stand up there you smile you certify it and you go home nothing more so going to the day of january 6 into the speech and to mentioning mike pence i mean he's tried to get pence to go along with him maybe he holds out hope he'll change his mind despite the fact that they issued a statement but what is trump doing is he appealing to the mob in that moment what do they think that they are doing when they are telling the crowd to fight what is the plan at that point and what is going on when he's talking about pence to those people as someone who's covered trump for over a decade there's no happier moment for donald trump than when he's revving up a crowd i've seen it in arizona i've seen it in texas i've seen it in florida he loves to have the crowd in the palm of his hands and not worry about the consequence of what he's saying to stir them up to show their loyalty through roar after roar he likes to have the crowd with him he wants the crowd to be as big as possible january 6 2021 presented trump with one of his biggest crowds his most enthusiastic and fervent crowds and he wanted them to do whatever they wanted to prove their loyalty maybe that was marching up to the capitol maybe that was rallying outside of the white house he didn't think that far ahead about what it would all mean but he liked chaos he likes when the crowd becomes frenzied because it's a show of appreciation and fervor for him we can't read donald trump's mind about what he wanted from that crowd but it's certain through his words that day that he wanted action he wanted people to stand with him and fight trial by combat as giuliani said could you take us to the capitol into their chanting you know hang mike pence he is now a target of the the crowds and what is happening with him once pence releases his letter and it circulates immediately on social media trump's supporters erupt they can't believe it pence is breaking with trump he's not going to do what the president wants they explode on pennsylvania avenue on the steps of the capitol because of the letter they read it and realize pence isn't going to go along once the trump supporters at the capitol realize that pence has issued a formal letter saying he's not going to do what trump wants they began to chant hang mike pence find mike pence take down mike pence they want to find the man they now blame for enabling joe biden to become the next president and anyone who's going along with the certification is seen as an enabler of biden they want to find them and they want a confrontation pence is inside the chamber secret service pulls them out the crowd's in the building sir they say we need to move you to a safe location they move him to the side to an office nearby the senate chamber and then ultimately down the stairs to a secure area where he's waiting by his motorcade his aides say sir maybe it's best we leave maybe we should leave the capitol he says to a secret service agents i'm not going to get in that car i'm not going to leave i need to stay because he knows the minute you get in the motorcade that motorcade will take you away and it will take you to a secure location who knows when you get back to the capitol to continue the certification of the election so pence decides to stay he declines the offer to leave the capital and what's happening at the white house especially as regards pence the president tweets at 224 what is his attitude towards pence and what is he doing trump is watching television from the dining room near the oval office processing it all pleased to see his supporters with him his supporters at the capitol he's not horrified by what's happening people who came in to see him in the dining room say he was watching television almost like he would be watching a golf match keeping an eye on it all uh not really reacting to it in an emotional way happy to see his supporters out there when he's updated on pence's condition that pence is safe he shrugs and says oh okay thanks for the update but this is someone who's not really that concerned based on our reporting about what was happening with pence because he knew pence had broken with him pence was safe he assumed the secret service had him together but he liked that his supporters were fighting he wasn't worried about pence's safety at least that wasn't top of mind based on our reporting but he was someone who was loving that the crowd was fighting i mean and to be tweeting about him in the midst of that i mean what message was that sending eastman trump and others are still pressuring pence as the riot begins to do something to object to the certification the pressure campaign led by trump went to the final moment on january 6th even as people are storming the capital the president is unrelenting he won't back off of his push to have pence walk away he wants pence to do something so the pressure campaign continued even without trump being physically there his people are there pressuring pence and for trump it was something to watch not something at first at least to stop someone we haven't talked much about but who has made a similar agreement or similar calculation as lindsey graham that staying close to trump is worth it is kevin mccarthy and at this moment on january 6 is a moment where he's going to see how much influence he actually has in a phone call to trump what is that phone call what is he asking of trump and what does he get as a result mccarthy says to trump you need to call these people out of here you need to get them out of the capitol mccarthy's office was being bombarded with with rocks and pelted by people with metal bars in the days after january 6 i walked through mccarthy's office just to see it and you could still see the cracks in the windows the trash outside mccarthy's office was being ransacked on january 6 by the rioters mccarthy's office was ransacked cracked windows trash everywhere his staff was in fear of their lives being taken this was a moment of true fear inside of the u.s capitol whether you were a republican or democrat that your life was at risk mccarthy tells trump you have to get these people out trump says to mccarthy kevin these people believe that i won more than you did that's where trump's mind was in the conversation with mccarthy about loyalty about the election supposedly being stolen in trump's view it wasn't about mccarthy's safety or pence's safety it was about loyalty and political obedience trump wanted loyalty and obedience from mccarthy even as violence consumed the capital but i mean talk about loyalty kevin mccarthy is somebody who has gone along with trump from the very beginning and he even objected to the election and who objected to election i mean does kevin i mean when you look at that situation does the loyalty only go one way with donald trump how does kevin mccarthy view you know what did he get in exchange for the loyalty that he had provided up until that moment by working closely with trump mccarthy came closer to the speakership he has remained the leader of house republicans because he has remained an ally of president trump mccarthy's political capital inside of the house republican party is intertwined with his relationship with donald trump if you take away the relationship with trump mccarthy knows you don't have much of a relationship with your core members who have that relationship with trump or who have that admiration for trump mccarthy if anything is a political operator he knows where the power is inside the gop it's with trump and as long as it's with trump mccarthy is going to be with trump another moment that's about ted cruz they're trying to decide are they going to continue to object is ted cruz going to continue to object and it seems like once again it's a situation of following and it's a situation of following josh hawley and can you describe what happens in the calculation that ted cruz makes in that moment some of the more moderate members of the republican party pull senator cruz and senator hawley aside when they're in a secure area and they whispered to the objectors maybe it's time to lay down your arms politically maybe it's time we just move forward with this entire process let's not object but still even as people are being killed as part of the insurrection some republican senators say we are going to continue to object that's just who we are that's what we're going to do we're here to help president trump object to the election some republican senators say to them privately you can't do this this is an insurrection back off but they won't back off and what a revealing snapshot of the republican party even at the moment of violence when they're in their secure area because the capital is being attacked some republicans say to their own colleagues sorry we're moving ahead with trump's agenda what trump wants because that's where our party is and that's where we are so lindsey graham where is he in that moment lindsey graham is frustrated he's emotional and he says he's had enough with his entire fight spearheaded by trump but he doesn't really break with trump at his political core it's a moment of grievance about trump but not a total break graham is someone who is still talking to trump days later about how he should rehabilitate himself and run for president again in 2024 there is a momentary spasm of frustration with trump but it doesn't last those speeches on the senate floor senator graham senator lee show their frustration with the president taking it to this point to the point of a capital attack but they don't want to see themselves distance too much from the man who has all the power i mean you described that he's confronted by trump supporters in those days after january 6 i mean he must see the power of oh yeah that's a great base that's great imagery too senator graham feels the heat immediately after that speech approached in airports and trump supporters say to him you're a traitor you're the worst you're expletive graham nods he takes it he grimaces as he makes his way through the airport and he recognizes that if he wants a future in the republican party he certainly can't break with donald trump he can have his own position on january 6 his own position on whether trump went too far but trump is the party and it's visceral there's an almost violent edge to the way graham is criticized on social media and elsewhere they see graham as not just someone who opposes trump's position on january 6 at that time but someone who's a traitor traitorous this is the kind of way graham is cast immediately by trump supporters and graham quickly works to rehabilitate himself with trump and with trump's supporters it was a a moment of dissent from the trump position and he quickly found his way back there's an extensive description in the book of graham in that period after january 6 where he continues to see himself as the trump whisperer is somebody who can moderate him who can get him off talking the election and it's like groundhog day i mean can you describe what graham is trying to get from trump but that he just cannot you know for all of the golf games he cannot get trump to do graham loves the push and pull with trump trying to get trump to change his personality but then knowing he can and explaining that to other republicans he's the explainer the best friend the confidant the inside man when it comes to donald trump and there's a sense sometimes that graham believes he can push trump in a different direction than a realization that he can't but what graham wants to be is in the room with trump whether that's on the course at mar-a-lago inside the white house this is someone who wants to help be an advisor to the person he sees as the center of the republican party graham's colleagues say that he's someone they count on to give a read of where trump is that he is someone who they believe can interpret trump's whims his moods his different power centers around him and they turn to graham including mcconnell for advice on how to navigate everything trump is doing i mean in this period it seems like the thing that graham really wants is for trump to stop talking about the election in the stolen election can you just describe that argument that he makes and the effect that it actually has um on trump graham wants trump to focus on 2024 not 2020. he sees so much opportunity on the horizon for trump even now he wants trump to put down the grievances stop claiming the election was a lie but he also recognizes trump just won't listen in golf game after golf game phone call after phone call graham is pleading with trump stop talking about 2020. but it never convinces trump trump hears him out sometimes they'll hang up on each other sometimes they'll curse at each other they hear they're friends but he can't convince trump to actually move on when kevin mccarthy goes to mar-a-lago can you describe that scene and how important it is and the story of the photograph and telling the and the press finding out about it mccarthy's colleagues are wondering what's kevin going to do well mccarthy flies down to mar-a-lago has lunch with trump they're sitting there having burgers they're both trying to lose a little weight they take the buns off the burgers and they laugh about that how they're both friends still after january 6 guys who can exchange diet tips mccarthy says to trump i want your help for 2022. help me win back the majority it was an opportunity on the table laid out for donald trump to repair himself mccarthy didn't need to make an explicit offer of rehabilitation but trump knew it was just that this was an offer to come back to begin the trump comeback it was mccarthy as a congressional leader who made it happen mcconnell had broken with trump wasn't talking to trump but mccarthy was willing to fly down to trump's home to show that kind of respect to trump that he would come to trump's place not have trump come to the capitol by going to mar-a-lago mccarthy made so many trump supporters in the house pleased that the house gop would remain politically cozy with the former president but mccarthy's visit appalled others like representative cheney who saw mccarthy as someone who was ingratiating to the point of embarrassment with the former president i mean when we look back on it now was that a turning point in where the republican party was going mccarthy and mcconnell could have led their conferences to break with trump mcconnell could have convinced his colleagues to convict trump in the senate impeachment trial mccarthy could have told his colleagues that trump's the past and it's time to build a new future instead mcconnell said people should do what they want in the senate impeachment trial and he did not vote to convict trump though he blamed a lot of january 6 on trump himself mccarthy goes down to mar-a-lago and says to trump regardless of what has happened in recent weeks i still need your help i need your help to help me win the speaker's gavel in 2020 true trump sees in mccarthy a politically pliant person who can help him come back and someone who is not trying to go to war with him even though there's an opportunity to do just that and to have a full break late january and early february 2021 is a moment historians will look back on as a rare window where republicans could have jumped out and gone in an entirely different direction they did not so let's just skip ahead to the end the anniversary of january 6 when you've got liz cheney and her father is the only republicans there she's about to be censured and their republican national committee is going to issue a statement saying january 6 was legitimate political discourse can you also describe the republican party that has been transformed by january 6 by the decisions that it's made since then where is the party at that point and what does that scene represent january 6 will live in infamy as a moment where republicans had to make a decision about who each of them are what does it mean to be a republican your reaction to january 6 an insurrection tells us everything there was an attack on the u.s capitol after a rally held by the president of the united states who was pushing his supporters in congress and elsewhere to object to an election the republican party for years was in the wilderness watching president obama win election after election watching democrats win power when mitt romney loses in 2012 many republicans believe the party is dead it won't come back paul ryan and his vision of medicare and social security reform doesn't land with most american people it doesn't doesn't land with the working class after 2012 the republican party thought the working class was lost and that the future of the party had to be centrist that maybe it should move in a different direction you saw that from jeb bush and so many others who ran in 2016 but there was one person on that 2016 stage who said i actually don't want to go after entitlement reform i want to limit immigration and i want to have a hard nosed nationalist appeal to the voter trump revolutionized the republican party a free trade party protectionist he made a party that was trying to moderate on immigration a party of border hawks and restrictive on immigration trump changed an entire party he made overtures to working-class union democrats and he made republicans think inside the halls of congress that maybe they could have a new paradigm for the republican future but they had a crossroads in 2016. you can win power but it's going to be with this person who has said all of these different things over the years that are offensive who has a spotty record on business and politics you can win power but it comes at this cost they took the bargain in 2016 and ever since january 2017 when trump took the oath of office the republican party has essentially been in lockstep with donald trump the anti-trump movement the never trump movement has been on the relative fringes of american politics it has a large media footprint from time to time but not a political coalition out in the states trump took a searing message on cultural and political issues and made it something that was real to republicans a path to power power more than ideology now drives the republican party this is a party that argued for years it came out of barry goldwater and ronald reagan and george w bush a conservative republican party now it's not really even a republican party in ethos or necessarily conservative but populist and power driven where are the people on the right of american politics and even the center moving the center left how can we appeal to them on issues like immigration and trade and so much of the republican party now is about passing policy and winning power behind a personality not necessarily behind an ideology the ideology of years past has cracked and fallen away now at the center is a personality who perseveres even through defeat even through chaos even through two impeachments donald john trump and he still lingers on the scene in control out of office but in power so that party on that moment and when you see that image of just liz cheney and her father i watched them carefully that day and wondered are these two people these cheneys the future or are they relics of the past and they might be the latter because the republican party has remained with trump the ghosts of cheney and bush and reagan haunt the halls of the capital but have very little influence this is a party that has moved toward trump representative cheney desperately wants the republican party to come back to the ethos and politics of the past to get away from trumpism and try to recreate some of the political coalitions and arguments that elevated the party for decades but she is waging a lonely battle the image of her with her father tells you everything the cheneys in republican politics have retained some respect among the seasoned more moderate and conservative people in the party but they don't have power where are the followers where are the followers for the cheney model of republican politics she might run in 2024 and try to galvanize republicans who have been slumbering politically for years from that reagan bush wing but she might fail to galvanize people in the coming months as well in the coming years the cheneys are seen by many republican voters as relics of the past a pass that led the republican party into war in iraq intervention in afghanistan to an expanded government during the bush years even if they see the chinese as morally respectable they don't want to return to the politics they represent we're talking about democracy what's the state of democracy given the state of the republican party that you've talked so eloquently about um it's a great question american democracy is perhaps more fragile than ever how healthy can a democracy be if a lie is now at the center of a major political party how healthy can a democracy be if many republicans millions of them across the country won't accept joe biden as the rightful president this is not about red and blue anymore those were simpler times easier times this is now about democracy whether people believe in the system that exists or want to overturn it that's where we are as a nation i see it as a reporter in all my travels that this country is not just divided that's that's an easy way of framing it it's not a divided country it's a chaotic country without a rule book if people aren't following the rules of democracy also called the constitution if that's not the rule book for the whole playing field anymore then what happens what happens in a soccer match or on a baseball field if everybody decides to stop following the rules chaos american democracy is at a moment of chaos this is a reckoning for democracy when a former president refuses to concede and had pressured his own vice president to disrupt the certification of an election an effort that many have seen as a possible coup in the united states to even have the word coup thrown around in the united states of america a country that began in philadelphia forged over shared values and philosophies about a stable system this was a country that was forged on values constitutional values by leaders who wanted a functioning democracy a country that would have a peaceful transition to power a country that wouldn't have a military general somehow become a king but a country where a general could return to mount vernon after being president and someone else would just quietly take his place january 6 gets at the core of the founding of america which is the peaceful transition of power a presidential system where the next person in line even if you don't like them is accepted we now have a country and a republican party that doesn't accept that the transition to power that took place in 2021 was legitimate it's not just a crisis for american democracy it's a tragedy let me ask you one more thing you used to talk to trump with great regularity when you were reporting on him you generously told us about those conversations many times if you talk to him now and i don't know whether you do or not but how is this donald trump different than the donald trump you used to talk to let it be known those close to trump now say he hasn't changed at all the presidency usually changes people who sit in that office it hasn't changed trump he remains the same person he was who sat around with roy cohn in manhattan in the 1980s and came up with different legal and business schemes he's the same person who sat on the 26th floor of trump tower with roger stone in the 1990s and thought how could i map out a political career he's the same trump who sat with steve bannon in the oval office in january of 2017 and said let's have a disruptive presidency the trump who worked with cohn with stone with bannon is the trump of 2021 he's the trump of 2022. this is donald trump unchanging unflinching even with lindsey graham he won't change his mind on the election his supporters beg him to just move on to a different topic he won't he's on the march brad parscale his former campaign manager says not only will trump run again but he's going to run again with vengeance on his mind this is a former president who wants vengeance it's such an unusual moment in america usually former presidents go home jimmy carter goes back to plains george h.w bush after one term goes back to texas former presidents barack obama bill clinton start to do civic work in the days after their respective presidencies donald trump goes back on the campaign trail rally after rally revving his people up promising hinting winking that he's going to be back in 2024 vengeance at the top of his mind and at the center of his agenda if you think it was bad on january 6 just follow what is happening in the states where so many republicans are passing voter laws and are saying come january 2025 we'll be ready this time we'll be ready this time to help out our side

Channel: FRONTLINE PBS | Official

Views: 4,201,811

Keywords:

Id: of7RiGxtAhE

Length: 75min 35sec (4535 seconds)

Published: Tue Sep 06 2022